All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, July 27th, 2015
Read the transcript from the Monday show
Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: July 27, 2015
Guest: Daniel Kurtzer, Gloria Allred, Eric Boehlert, Noreen Malone
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --
MIKE HUCKABEE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We would take the Israelis and
basically march them to the door of the oven.
HAYES: Huckabee compares Obama to Hitler as the race to get on the 2016
debate stage takes on an uglier tone.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Maybe this is an effort to
push Mr. Trump out of the headlines. It`s not the kind of leadership
that`s needed for America right now.
HAYES: Then, the polls show support among Republicans for Donald Trump`s
position on immigration, while Jeb Bush makes his case in Spanish.
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)
HAYES: Plus, "The New York Times" now backing off an explosive report on
Hillary Clinton and her State Department e-mails.
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The facts are clear. I
didn`t send nor receive anything that was classified at the time.
HAYES: And a remarkable article in "New York Magazine" as 35 of Bill
Cosby`s accusers come forward.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was very calculating. He was very manipulative.
He knew exactly what he was doing.
HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.
HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.
An explosion of outrage and backlash against a Republican presidential
candidate, for once his name isn`t Donald Trump. Now, it was former
Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee who seems to be taking a page from the
Trump play book and is refusing to back down from comments in which he used
imagery of the Holocaust to attack President Obama over the Iran nuclear
Quote, "It is so naive he would trust the Iranians", Huckabee said, so far
so good. "By doing, so he will take the Israelis and march them to the
door of the oven." March the Israelis to the door of the oven.
The Anti-Defamation League called the comment completely out of line and
In Iowa today, Hillary Clinton said she was personally offended by
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: I find this kind of inflammatory rhetoric totally unacceptable.
One can disagree with the particulars of the agreement to put a lid on the
nuclear weapons program of Iran and that is fair game. But this steps over
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Asked about Huckabee`s comments during a visit to Ethiopia,
President Obama linked them to similar rhetoric from GOP Senators Tom
Cotton and Ted Cruz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: In particular, comments of Mr. Huckabee are, I think part of a
general pattern that we have seen that is -- would be considered ridiculous
if it weren`t so sad. I mean, we`ve had a senator call John Kerry "Pontius
Pilate". We`ve had a sitting senator who also happens to be running for
president suggests that I`m the leading state sponsor of terrorism. These
are leaders in the Republican Party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Huckabee, for his part today, refused to apologize, despite being
begged to do so during an appearance on FOX News.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUCKABEE: If we tonight take seriously the threats of Iran then God help
us all, because the last time -- it`s Neville Chamberlain again. We`re
just going to trust that everyone is going to do the right thing. Three
times I have been to Auschwitz. When I talked about the oven door, I have
stood at the oven door. I know exactly what it looks like.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Huckabee also took criticism from Jeb Bush today though it`s
important to listen closely to what Mr. Bush was objecting to.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I think we need to tone down the rhetoric for sure. Look, I have
been to Israel not as many times as Mike Huckabee, who I respect. But the
use of that kind of language is just wrong. This is not the way we are
going to win elections. That`s not how we are going to solve problems.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Mr. Bush is not so much criticizing the point Mr. Huckabee was
making as his language and tone. And that`s important because while
Huckabee may have crossed the line with the explicitness of his imagery the
actual comparison is squarely within the conceptual mainstream of the
Republican Party and the conservative movement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, FOX NEWS: This is the worst deal since the Munich
deal of 1938.
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Look, this deal, whatever the
final details turn out to be, is an American Munich.
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: This is the equivalent of giving Adolph Hitler
weapons of mass destruction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is it about this president?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: He`s the Neville Chamberlain of
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neville Chamberlain?
GRAHAM: Please? Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it`s one of the quite frankly biggest foreign
policy mistakes I have seen in my lifetime. I think it rivals Neville
Chamberlain`s negotiations with Hitler.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some have compared it to Neville Chamberlain`s Munich
accord with Nazi Germany. But that doesn`t fully illustrate the danger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now, former U.S. ambassador to Israel, Daniel Kurtzer,
professor of Middle East policy studies at Princeton`s Woodrow Wilson
School, who today joined four other former U.S. ambassador of Israel in
signing onto a letter to Congress in support of the Iran deal.
Mr. Ambassador, your reaction both to Mike Huckabee`s explicit comments but
to the broader comparison that is now become a routine touchstone in people
arguing against the deal that essentially the Iran of today is like the
Hitler of 19 -- late 1930s.
AMB. DANIEL KURTZER, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: Well, it`s an outrageous
comment, a very sad commentary about the nature of our politics. There are
serious issues to be debated here. But for anybody to equate what the
president is doing to what Adolf Hitler did in World War II is just
In some says, it`s a form of incitement, and we have seen results of that.
Twenty years ago in Israel, there was the same kind of incitement against
Yitzhak Rabin, and that led to a tragic outcome.
I just hope people really stand back and understand Mr. Huckabee has
crossed a serious line here. Every Republican candidate should stand up,
condemn this and ask him to retract it.
HAYES: Now, there are lots of folks who oppose the deal. In the
argumentation against the deal, much of it has been about Israel. Much of
it is about Israel`s security and obviously, a nation created in the wake
of the Holocaust has a specific and earned fear of this kind of threat.
As someone who was ambassador to Israel for four years, what is your
understanding of this back and forth?
KURTZER: Well, Chris, I experienced twice in my career -- once before I
became ambassador and once during my tenure, the real expression of Israeli
concern when its security and well-being was threaten. In the Gulf War of
1991, when Iraq fired dozens of Scud missiles at Israel, Israel had done
nothing. Again the concern that Iraq in 2003 would react to the American
invasion by launching perhaps weapons of mass destruction.
So, it`s fair for the Israelis to be concerned, particularly about Iran.
They are a country that`s called for Israel`s destruction, denies the
I think the concern is a realistic motivation to look at this agreement and
see whether it works. The reason I support the agreement is I think it is
the best way to curb Iran`s program, to give us 15 or 20 years of time to
see whether or not the Iranians will change their behaviors both in their
nuclear program and outside of it, and to move them farther away from the
possibility of acquiring a nuclear weapon.
HAYES: But part of the debate and part of what makes it frustrating,
think, is that there is one track in which people criticize the actual
details of the deal. And there`s another in which when people invoking
Munich, right, they are invoking it so say no amount of diplomacy was
possible, right? I mean, the invocation of Munich is to say the nature of
this state, the nature of this country is that it`s a fool`s errand and
possibly suicidal and possibly leads to genocide to even engage in
My take is, as someone supporting this deal, you don`t believe that to be
KURTZER: Well, that`s exactly right, Chris. And it`s even more than that.
It`s the whole idea that somehow if you engage in diplomacy, you are
selling out the country.
We heard this as early as 2008 from President George W. Bush when he went
to Israel and he equated diplomacy with Iran as appeasement. In a sense,
setting the stage for the outrageous comments we`re hearing now about
Munich and Chamberlain and even Hitler.
I think the Republicans and those who oppose the deal ought to focus in on
what`s wrong with it. If they don`t like it, let`s hear what`s wrong and
we can have a reasoned debate. But this idea that diplomacy itself is to
blame or diplomacy is the equivalent of appeasement I think represents a
true ignorance of what diplomacy can accomplish. This agreement has some
very strong aspects to it. There are some serious questions that have to
be answered. I think that`s what the 60-day period in the Congress is
designed to do.
HAYES: Former U.S. ambassador to Israel under President George W. Bush,
Daniel Kurtzer, thank you very much.
KURTZER: Thank you.
HAYES: All right. There are new polls out from NBC News and Marist. And
once again, the news is good for Donald Trump. Trump is in first place in
New Hampshire with 21 percent support, seven points better than his nearest
challenger Jeb Bush. And he is in second place in Iowa with 17 percent,
just two points below leader Scott Walker.
Trump is one of the few candidates in the 16-person GOP field virtually
guaranteed to be on stage for the first Republican presidential debate
which takes place next Thursday.
Only the candidates who placed in the top ten in an average of national
polls will be allowed to participate. Republican candidates and outside
groups supporting them have already spent nearly $8 million on TV ads in an
attempt to raise poll numbers and they have struggled to get media
attention with Trump hogging the spotlight -- a situation that prompted
Rand Paul who had an ad asking whether the tax code should be killed with a
wood chipper, or the chainsaw, or with fire to vow not to set himself on
fire to compete with Trump for attention, stating, "I`m drawing the line at
self-immolation." That`s a funny line, which seems like a good call.
Senator and presidential candidate Ted Cruz who on Friday tried to score
coverage by deeming fellow Republican and Senate majority leader Mitch
McConnell a liar received a smack down for his trouble over the weekend
with fellow Senate Republicans accusing him of grandstanding, sanctimony,
and failing to learn lessons from kindergarten about mutual respect.
Here`s where things now stand in the race for top 10. Trump leads the
pack, followed by Bush and Cruz. Cruz in a relatively safe sixth place,
while Christie and Rick Perry are clinging to a place on that debate stage,
with a bunch of candidates nipping at their heels.
Joining me now are MSNBC correspondent Josh Barro, also a correspondent of
"The New York Times", and MSNBC political analyst and former chairman of
the RNC, Michael Steele.
Josh, I`ll begin with you.
It`s over the last week, I feel like conventional wisdom has congealed
around this kind of notion of the race for tenth, right? That it was
something we have been talking about for a while. But, really, you`ve seen
it now. Everyone is saying everyone is desperately trying to get attention
to get on the debate stage. They`re trying to do crazy things in late
Do you think that stands?
JOSH BARRO, NEW YORK TIMES: I think it`s overstated a little bit. People
have been talking about this like if you`re not on stage for this debate,
you can`t -- you have no chance going forward. There are two problems with
that. One is most of these people already have no chance going forward
already. Rick Perry is not going to be the nominee, whether or not he`s on
stage for this debate.
But the other thing is most people are not going to watch this debate.
There are going to will be a lot of debates. People will continue to tune
in more and more as we get farther along. So, yes, I mean, I think, you
know, the candidates were right on the bubble. They`d rather be on stage.
If you`re not on stage, you`re probably not going to win.
But it`s more than, if you`re not on stage, you probably won`t win because
the reason you didn`t get on stage was that you had almost no chance of
HAYES: Michael, I can`t -- I can`t decide between two possibilities now,
particularly Trump. One is that we are seeing something similar to the
government shutdown which is, it was terrible for the Republican Party`s
brand for a few weeks, a month, didn`t matter a year later.
The other is that it`s something more like the Sensenbrenner deal on
immigration, back in 2006, which would have criminalized people here
illegally, which created a profound lasting mark essentially on how a lot
of people thought about the Republican Party. What do you think it is?
MICHAEL STEELE, FORMER RNC CHAIRMAN: I don`t know if it`s either one. I
really think that, you know, to Josh`s point just as we are over thinking
who will be on stage and who is not going to be, I think folks are over-
thinking what`s going on here with a lot of folks inside the GOP. You
know, what we call the base.
This is not rocket science. It`s not a complicated matter. This
candidate, Donald Trump, is speaking authentically to a lot of their fears
and concerns. Now, whether you agree or disagree they could care less.
What do they care about --
HAYES: That`s true.
STEELE: But you need to understand that.
HAYES: Believe me, I understand that.
STEELE: Not you personally, but I`m saying, all this great thinkers need
to come to a realization that this is not complicated for them. And until
someone and I`ve said this for a while now, until some of the other 15
figure out how to put themselves in that conversation, in a way that they
can bring serious policy discussions, and proposals and bigger ideas than
Donald Trump is talking about he`s going to own that space of the stage,
and it`s going to continue to grow.
HAYES: But there is also a problem that strikes me here. And this to the
Mike Huckabee phenomenon which is the incentive structure of the race is
fascinating and dynamic, OK? Because it`s unprecedented, you have never
had serious contenders. You`d never had this much money, right? The
combination of the two. You got Citizens United plus all these contenders.
The question of how you gain this out, people, I think, are learning the
lesson that you want as much free media as possible and the way to get that
is to say crazy things.
BARRO: Yes, you can`t outdo Donald Trump in that regard. I mean, this is
-- this is not rocketing Mike Huckabee to front of the field, getting more
HAYES: We don`t have the polling yet. I don`t know. I mean, I generally
BARRO: Maybe. But I think in terms of Trump, Michael is right that people
feel he`s speaking to them authentically, but so much of it is mood
affiliation, which is if you get Donald Trump talking about policy
specifics, which happens occasionally, he actually articulates a position
on immigration that`s arguably to the left of most of the field. He says,
well, you know, some of these people, the good ones, we`ll work something
out with them. And I think it seems once people start paying attention to
that, they`ll decide Trump is a liberal, Trump is a guy who was once for
single payer health care. Trump was for a wealth packs.
But the thing is Trump just feels he`s got to go in there and be your tough
BARRO: And, yes, maybe he`ll work something out with the illegals and you
don`t feel great about it. But at least it`s Trump working that out for
you, and you know Trump`s got your back.
I don`t think any of these politicians can match that. I don`t think
anybody can recreate what Trump has built over 35 years of being
HAYES: There is the argument that essentially Trump -- that Trump`s rise
essentially helped Jeb Bush, because it takes attention away from Scott
Walker who is, in some ways, bush`s biggest threat. You see reliably right
now in the polling, there`s Trump and then there`s Bush and Walker. Trump,
Bush, Walker, that seems like a robust finding. Bush and Walker have
significant financial backing. They both were governors of state that have
gone to Democrats and presidential elections.
What do you think of that?
STEELE: Yes, I think there is validity to that. I think the Bush team
recognizes that they are sandwiched in between a real rival in Scott Walker
and the megaphone that is Donald Trump. And so, you noticed in response to
the Huckabee question he`s carefully weaving it through there. Let`s tone
down the rhetoric. That`s a nod to the Trump piece. Then to speak a
little bit more substantively he goes, you know, we all disagree with this
Iran plan, which again recognizing where the other people on stage are.
So, he`s got a very delicate tight rope to walk.
The other x factor here, I think that the new entrant John Kasich who is
not yet on the board is something that`s also going to be fascinating to
watch in the next few weeks, in the next week to see if he can get the bump
to get on stage.
HAYES: I agree. I want him to advocate for a pathway to legalization.
Let`s see where that brings. Josh Barro, Michael Steele, thank you both.
Still ahead, why Donald Trump`s stamp on immigration is pretty much in line
with the Republican primary voters. Plus, how a "New York Times" bomb
shell exclusive on Hillary Clinton is falling apart.
And 35 of Bill Cosby`s accusers speak out in a powerful report from "New
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He reached over and put a pill next to my wine glass.
He said, take this. It will make you feel better. It will make us all
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Once a week every Tuesday on our Facebook page, I answer your
questions questions. Last week, I was asked about everything form Donald
Trump`s presidential chances to the reporting we deal on the California
drought for "ALL IN American: Water Wars".
By the way, you can find those reports on Facebook #allinwaterwars.
Tomorrow, starting at noon Eastern, you can find me on Facebook and
basically ask me anything. Well, you can ask me anything. I don`t promise
to answer. Just got to Facebook.com/allinwithchris.
We`ll be right back.
HAYES: Today, further evidence that Donald Trump`s views on immigration
are not outliers in the Republican Party. Rather, they reflect the views
of many primary voters if not the majority. A new poll out from CNN found
that 63 percent of Republicans favored stopping the flow of illegal
immigrants to the U.S. and deporting those already here. Another
specifically worded poll found that 46 percent of likely Republican primary
voters in Iowa want illegal immigrants to be required to leave. Another
poll conducted last month found that 43 percent of Republicans felt
undocumented immigrants should not be allowed to stay legally. That is
just so we`re clear, mass deportation.
And keep in mind, this isn`t just primary voter. House Republicans have
voted in favor of mass deportation by targeting programs a series of
programs which provide statues to immigrants brought to the country as
children. So, for a party that needs to win more than 40 percent of the
Latino vote in 2016, according to analysis done by the group Latino
Decisions, it falls to Jeb Bush to be the one to bridge the seeming
unbridgeable gap through sheer force of personal experience.
Today, Bush, who was married to a woman born in Mexico whose children are
Mexican-Americans, sat down to speak with MSNBC`s own Jose Diaz Balart in
Spanish for an interview that aired on Telemundo to make his case. There,
he distanced himself from Donald Trump`s most inflammatory statements.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH (through translator): A person speaking in such a vulgar fashion that
this makes it more difficult, that is to say the solving of this problem
when we have politicians that talk like that. It`s not progress.
We should say this is a plan to do it, to solve it, not just say, I`m on
your side. That`s what Trump does. You`re offending millions of people
but if you are here illegally, it`s senseless. In political term, it`s
mad. In regard to creating an environment where problems can be solved,
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: After that interview, Jose Diaz Balart told me what he thought
about the experience of sitting down for conversation with Jeb Bush
entirely in Spanish.
JOSE DIAZ-BALART, MSNBC HOST: It was unusual to sit down for 30 minutes
with a candidate for the presidency and carry out an interview completely
in Spanish. No ground rules. No formation of what kind of questions I was
going to be asking. The entire thing was in Spanish. He knows that people
are going to look at this, translate it and see what he has to say.
You know, one of the fist questions I asked was whether his children were
ever victims of discrimination. If so, how did he deal with it? He says,
he told me they were. There was a time when one of his sons came up to
North Florida to play baseball with his team and other people because of
the color of his skin were making fun of him. And how he deals with that.
He said, you know, look, the fact of the matter is there are a lot of
issues on social justice and racism in the United States, not just goes for
the Hispanics. But there are problems with the African-American community.
So, I don`t know that he was thinking of primaries in this kind of
HAYES: You know, one of the ways that I see Bush particularly negotiating
this is he has a particular comparative advantage. He speaks fluent
Spanish. He has a family that is Latino. He lives in Mexico. He`s
comfortable in that setting.
At the same time, it`s striking to me that he has foreclosed on a path to
citizenship. I wonder how strongly the policy red line is currently
resonating folks that are watching your broadcast, consuming Spanish
DIAZ-BALART: It`s a big deal, it`s a big deal because -- and I asked him
because some years ago, he wrote a book where he said there should be a
pathway to legalization for the undocumented but that pathway should not
include citizenship. And what he says is, and he reminded me that in the
last amnesty, as he called it, that Ronald Reagan put through in the mid
`80s, he said a good percentage of those that came out from under the
shadows and became legal never -- decided never to go through the path to
What he`s saying now that immigration reform should include after the
border has been secured and the conditions are met. That it should have a
pathway to legalization for the undocumented, but no special path or unique
path to residency and citizenship. He says that that`s something he
believes could be achieved politically in the next -- you know, as the next
president could do that.
HAYES: Finally and quickly here, Jose, how much is the current rhetoric on
immigration from Trump across the field damaging the Republican brand among
large portions of the electorate, particularly those consuming Telemundo
and Spanish language media.
DIAZ-BALART: A lot, Chris. I asked him about that. He said he was
I asked him about Donald Trump`s statement that those across the border
illegally are, you know, rapists and drug dealers and killers. He said he
was personally hurt by it. But that also, there is no place for that kind
of vulgarity in the national discourse.
I think that he`s very aware of the fact that when Trump said that and then
in his subsequent visit, for example, to the border to Texas and Mexico,
and that issue and the way he presents the where I shall is something that
the Spanish language audience in the United States in the Latino community
is seeing and paying very close attention to because, even those here
legally know someone who doesn`t have their documents -- a cousin, a son, a
daughter, a father, a mother, a friend. There but for the grace of God go
And this is an instance where words matter, where how you say things
matters. It is no doubt having an impact on how people perceive the
Republican Party when you have Donald Trump repeating statements over and
HAYES: Jose Diaz-Balart, thank you so much.
DIAZ-BALART: Good to see you.
HAYES: Up next, the new committee looking into the death of Sandra Bland
in a Texas jail cell. Stay with us.
HAYES: Today, the Texas district attorney overseeing the Sandra Bland case
announced that a committee of outside attorneys will investigate her death
and review evidence as it comes in to help his office answer lingering
questions about her incarceration and death.
Bland died of an apparent hanging while in her Waller County, Texas jail
cell. There are several parallel ongoing investigations both into her
death and the circumstances of her arrest three days prior which stemmed
from failing to signal during a lane change.
Waller County District Attorney Elton Mathis also said the committee of
lawyers will help his office make decisions on the case which could go to a
grand jury as early as next month.
Well, the DA had reportedly texted the Bland family attorney last week that
Bland had swallowed a large quantity of marijuana or smoked it in jail, a
claim many greeted with skepticism, today`s toxicology report refers simply
to levels of marijuana which are thus far indeterminate of timing or
quantity whose relevance remains also undetermined.
The funeral and burial service for Sandra Bland took place Saturday at Duke
Page African Methodist Episcopal Church in Lyle, Illinois near Chicago.
Mourners were reminded that Sandra Bland had decided her purpose revolved
around social justice. As the church`s pastor said, quote, "this is not a
moment of defeat, this is a moment of victory. We are not funeralizing a
martyr or a victim, we are celebrating a hero."
HAYES: A bombshell story from the New York Times about Hillary Clinton`s
emails is falling apart so quickly that the paper`s own public editor today
called it, quote, a mess.
Last week, The Times blasted thousands of readers with the news that a
criminal inquiry is being sought over Hillary Clinton`s email use. The
media, understandably, went nuts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New potential trouble for Hillary Clinton as the
Justice Department considers a request to open a criminal investigation
into whether she mishandled classified information.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More questions about the private email account for the
democratic presidential hopeful and a possible criminal investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hillary Clinton tonight facing possible scrutiny by the
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The democratic presidential front runner now facing
possibility of a criminal investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: NBC News published a similar story that has now been corrected with
an editor`s note reading, quote, the Department of Justice initially
indicated that the referral from the inspector general was criminal in
nature. The Justice Department official now says it was not a criminal
Which speaks to the problem here, because five days later it looks like
what had reported as a criminal inquiry into Hillary Clinton was, a, not a
criminal inquiry and, b, not actually into Hillary Clinton. What appears
to have happened is that the inspector general asked the Department of
Justice to open a probe, not
necessarily criminal, into the possible transmission of sensitive
government information in connection with Hillary Clinton`s email while she
was secretary of state, which could include Clinton, but also other people
like the dozens, perhaps hundreds of people who were emailing with her.
Again, not a great story for Hillary Clinton, but also not the Justice
Department opens criminal probe into Hillary Clinton.
A top editor at The New York Times today explained their reporting saying,
quote, we got it wrong because our very good sources had it wrong.
The entire episode raises the issue of the strange, fraught, combative,
some argue dysfunctional relationship between the Clintons and The Times.
Joining me now, Eric Boehlert, senior fellow at Media Matters who is one of
the people I think who thinks there is dysfunction.
All right, so you guys won this round.
ERIC BOEHLERT, MEDIA MATTERS: They made it easy.
HAYES: Well, they got the story wrong. I think at this point it`s clear
that the two key things that made it a bombshell story: criminal inquiry,
Clinton are not true.
BOEHLERT: Yeah, other than that they got it right.
So, the story fell apart within hours. They started rewriting it in the
middle of the night. By the time most people picked up the paper Friday
morning, the story had dissolved.
By noon, it was completely dissolved when the State Department, Elijah
Cummings on the Hill saying there is no criminal referral. And then we saw
soret of wave after wave of semi-correction, now we wait four days for an
editor`s note and the editor tells the public editor, what can we do?
Basically we`d do the same thing again.
There needs to be accountability. There needs to be transparency. This is
a pattern of awful journalism.
HAYES: OK. Right, so this is where I want to get.
So, you have a series that The New York Times has it out for the Clintons.
HAYES: In this case you have got two reporters, I think it`s Michael
Schmidt and Matta Puzo (ph), if I`m not mistaken, both of who are fantastic
reporters, in my humble opinion, great reporters. This, it seems, they
got this wrong.
What is your evidence that there is some sort of larger pattern or
Here`s, let me give you my theory of the case. They write a lot about the
BOEHLERT: No, that`s not it.
HAYES: And, like anyone does -- because they`re the paper of the record,
and these are two of the most important, powerful, famous people in all of
American and American politics, sometimes they write stuff you guys don`t
like, but largely they don`t.
BOEHLERT: It`s not that we don`t like it, it`s not accurate. The fact --
the idea that The New York Times would sort of throw up a story up about
Jeb Bush that he maybe kind of was under criminal investigation, put it on
the front page, put it on the front page during the campaign and get the
entire story wrong...
HAYES: If anyone thought...
BOEHLERT: They would not do that (inaudible) on a Thursday night.
HAYES: I disagree. If The New York Times thought they had that story on
candidate across the aisle, criminal probe opened into, you know, Bernie
Sanders, that would be that would be front page news and you would push it
BOEHLERT: Now, here`s the pattern. Go back to Whitewater, got back to Wen
Ho Lee, go back to Loral Satellites, go back to the 90s. They have been
trying to criminalize...
HAYES: A massive percent of the people who are like, I have no idea...
BOEHLERT: I know. That`s what Google is for, thank god. And you go to
HAYES: Wen Ho Lee A Block tomorrow.
BOEHLERT: And Whitewater, and all that stuff.
Look, they have been trying to criminalize the Clintons for 20 years.
HAYES: What is they? What does that mean, though? What does that mean?
BOEHLERT: I`ll tell you exactly what it means, they take these bogus leaks
from partisan sources on the Hill, Republican sources. When there was the
Whitewater committee they did it then. They dictated it. They typed up
these leaks. It turned out to all be wrong. And we are seeing it again.
HAYES: But the they -- but here`s the thing, it`s not the same people.
So, it`s like, it starts to sound like a little paranoid.
BOEHLERT: No, it`s institutional. It`s institutional. We know it`s
institutional, because the players are now different. It`s not the same
editors and it`s not the same reporters.
There is a career path in D.C. You take cheap shots at the Clintons you
are going to get the clicks. It was written about -- this has been
HAYES: Do you think that`s true about the original email story, which they
BOEHLERT: No, they didn`t get it right, because they hinted at criminality
and they had to walk that back. People sort of forget about that.
HAYES: But that`s a story. You agree that`s a story.
BOEHLERT: That she had a private email, yeah, but they didn`t get it
right. Again, they wanted to hint at criminality. It was wrong.
Look, we have seen this pattern over and over again. Why doesn`t The New
York Times reveal who lied to them? Who got the story wrong?
HAYES: That I think -- that is a totally fair -- that is fair question,
because their source did burn them.
BOEHLERT: And there needs to be more accountability, because it`s a
pattern and they won`t acknowledge it.
HAYES: All right, Eric Boehlert, thanks for being here.
Still to come, 35 of Bill Cosby`s accusers tell all in a massive report
from New York Magazine. I will talk to the author that wrote the piece and
a lawyer who represents 17 of Cosby`s accusers ahead.
HAYES: We have got some good news for Bernie Sanders tonight as a new poll
shows him winning a hypothetical general election contest. CNN and ORC
International asked people who they would be more likely to vote for if
Bernie Sanders was the Democratic candidate for president, if he got the
nomination. And the results, well, they`re pretty incredible.
Against Donald Trump, Bernie Sanders wins 58 to 38. Against Scott Walker,
Bernie Sanders wins 48 to 42. Even against Jeb Bush, Bernie Sanders
squeaks ahead at 48 to 47, though that`s within the margin of error.
Hillary Clinton also beat all three of those Republican candidates in the
theoretical matchup with even bigger margins. We`ll be right back.
HAYES: After months of coverage of a sexual assault allegedly perpetrated
by Bill Cosby, a kind of collective inertia had set in, a feeling that even
as more and more accusers seem to come forward every week, nothing would
ever come of this because the statute of limitations had run its course.
And while that particular issue is still central and relevant, New York
Magazine, in a really incredible piece of journalism has broken through
that inertia in a remarkably powerful way with this cover image. It
represents 35 of the 46 women who have publicly accused Bill Cosby of
sexual assault according to New York Magazine.
NBC News has identified 36 alleged victims, a few of whom say drugs but not
sexual assault were involved. We note, as we always do, that Bill Cosby
has denied these allegations and has never been criminally charged.
Over six months New York Magazine interviewed every accuser who was willing
to go on the record -- their names, faces, all sharing their experience
individually, one by one.
We`re going to talk to the New York Magazine Senior Editor Noreen Malone
who made that come together in a moment. But first the question of whether
Bill Cosby will ever pay a penalty for these alleged acts in a criminal
One of the lawyers who is trying to get Cosby into a civil proceeding to
depose him is Gloria Allred, victims rights attorney representing 17
accusers of Bill Cosby and she joins us now.
What is the legal game plan here from your perspective?
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Well, very simply since we have obtained and
achieved our victory in the California supreme court last week in our case
of Judy Huff versus William H. Cosby, we can now proceed to litigate the
case and move it
forward which we are doing very, very vigorously.
And the next step for us is we would like to take his deposition. We have
noticed Mr. Cosby`s deposition. We have provided his lawyers with the
time, the place and the location. And we would like to be able to take it
in August because it`s long overdue for our clients to be able to move
forward in this lawsuit.
It`s been delayed because of Mr. Cosby`s efforts to block it. And he did
so by not only filing a writ with the California court of appeals, which
was denied but then filing a petition for review with the California
supreme court which was also denied.
But now we can move forward and we are doing so vigorously.
HAYES: My understanding, and again it is a little hard to get this
definitively because there is some haziness about the number of accusers
and obviously there may be people out there who haven`t come forward, but
in terms of public on the record accusations that nothing falls before the
statute of limitations, right? So a civil pursuit is really the only legal
avenue open at this point. Is that your understanding?
ALLRED: Well, in reference to my client Judy Huff, the district attorney
said it is too late for her even if what she`s saying is true, there is no
statement that it`s not true or it is true, but it is too late in
criminally prosecute Mr. Cosby for what Judy alleges.
However, it is not too late because there is a different statute of
limitations, a different time period to proceed with a civil lawsuit which
is what we are doing.
As to any other accuser, the Los Angeles police department has said that
they are investigating accusations by other women who allege wrongdoing by
Mr. Cosby. But we don`t know whether there will be any criminal charges
that will result from their investigation.
And as to any other accuser -- as to the others that I do represent who are
in L.A. Magazine, you know, it appears it may be too late for them to have
criminally prosecuted. That is, it wouldn`t be within the statute of
limitations, the time period to do so, even if the district attorney felt
he or she could prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
As to -- however, as you point out may be others who have not yet come
forward. And I can assure you that there are some who have not yet come
HAYES: Well, to the point of the statute of limitations and recourse here,
Ms. Allred, what is the sentiment among the people that you represent about
faith that they will have a day in court, that they will -- that this won`t
just be stalled and drawn out forever?
ALLRED: Well, as to Ms. Huff, we are confident that we are going to be
able to provide her with her day in court.
As to the others, of course, if the time period set by law bars them from
proceeding either with a criminal case or a civil case, or with a civil
case, which is the case for most of them, then that is disheartening.
However, the bad news is that while they can`t proceed in a court of law
which is bad news, the good news is that they can proceed in the court of
public opinion. They can have their voice, they can become empowered by
speaking out which is what they have done and which is what they will
continue to to.
HAYES: That`s an important point about the recourse outside of a
courtroom. Gloria Allred, thank you very much for your time.
ALLRED: Thank you very much.
HAYES: Up next, the author of the groundbreaking article on 35 of Cosby`s
accusers joins me live. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VICTORIA VALENTINO, COSBY ACCUSER: My name is Victoria Valentino.
LOUISA MORITZ, COSBY ACCUSER: I`m Louisa Moritz.
JOYCE EMMONS, COSBY ACCUSER: My name is Joyce Emmons.
JANICE DICKENSON, COSBY ACCUSER: My name is Janice Dickenson.
BARBARA BOWMAN, COSBY ACCUSER: Barbara Bowman.
LILY BERNARD, COSBY ACCUSER: My name is Lily Bernard.
He was very calculating. He was very manipulative. He knew exactly what
he was doing.
You should not let any person who does harm to your body get away with not
being brought to justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That is just part of the remarkable piece assembled by New York
magazine which interviewed 35 Bill Cosby accusers.
And joining me senior editor at New York Magazine, Noreen Malone who has
the byline on the article.
Just first of all, this is phenomenal first rate journalism. So, thank you
for doing it.
NOREEN MALONE, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Thank you. It was a magazine-wide
effort. It truly was.
HAYES: Well, it was a magazine-wide effort that was then taken down by
some hacker attack today?
MALONE: Yeah, our website was down for a lot of the day, but it`s back up
now. And you can read it in print and online.
HAYES: OK, and apparently unrelated, at least the hack...
MALONE: You have to...
HAYES: Who knows?
MALONE; Yeah, who knows.
HAYES: I have to interview the hacker.
HAYES: OK. It is now up and you can read it.
How long did it take?
MALONE: So, this process started all the back in December. Our photo
director Jody Kwan (ph) had been reading the news, as we all had, in the
Hannibal Burress doing the bit about Bill Cosby being a serial rapist.
More and more women were coming forward, one by one. They were publishing
in the Washington Post, they were publishing in Huffington Post, they were
doing press conferences. Almost every day there was a bit of news about
And Jody saw, before everyone else saw, that if you could get them all
together in one place and take a picture there would be a lot of power in
just having all of those women standing together like literal strength in
HAYES: What did you -- what struck you as you went through the process?
And there are extensive interviews. You can read and watch some of the
interviews. You can read them on the website. And they were all done --
it should be clear, and this is important -- individually, right. So, it`s
not like a group of people
so that details sync up, right, these are all individual people telling
MALONE: So, the similarities were really striking. The alleged incidents,
a lot of them had a lot of things in common. For one thing, a lot of the
women were aspiring models or actresses, very young, very early in their
HAYES: One was 17 at the time.
MALONE: Yeah, teenagers.
And they said -- oh, my agent told me that, you know, Bill Cosby wants to
mentor me. And you show up here. You`re going to do a line reading and
then in many cases they said that their drinks were drugged, and they woke
up naked or during a rape.
And so just those stories, but also the way that the women thought about
what happened to them. A lot of these incidents happened in the `60s and
`70s, particularly, when there literally was not the vocabulary to talk
about what had happened to them. Date rape had not been coined. No one
knew what an acquaintance rape was. They just felt horrible about what had
happened. Many of them blame themselves. They told people but they never
even thought of coming forward, because they didn`t think of it as rape,
they thought about it as, you know, a night gone very, very badly with a
HAYES: You do a good job drawing it out in the article about in some ways
shifting moral norms and shifting conceptions for the better. I mean, one
of the weird -- this is such a dark story. So dark. It`s just unspeakably
dark in many ways.
MALONE: I know.
HAYES: The kind of -- in some ways the hopeful silver ling here, is that
like we now unambiguously understand this -- if it happened, again, as
alleged by 35 different people as rape.
MALONE: Even President Obama said it.
HAYES: Even the president said it -- I mean, as just a statement of fac,
which even at the moment sort of struck you as like it`s weird that we have
to say that, but when I read your piece and when I read some of the
interviews where people said I felt horrible and traumatized and violated,
but I didn`t know what had happened in any kind of like strict legal or
MALONE: Right. There is one woman who, her daughter was raped when she
was a teenager. Her daughter, I think, is 28 or 29 now. She said her
daughter just had a totally different way of dealing with it. She talked
about it. She talked to anyone she could make listen about it. And she
said that she learned a lot from
And that was another interesting thing in this article. I felt these women
who are older, the youngest that we interviewed is in her 40s. But I
really felt like they had -- the culture has changed around rape activism
has really changed, largely thanks -- especially in recent years, to campus
activism. And I feel like these women were looking to some of those
lessons from these younger women especially about how to use social media,
how to sort of band together.
HAYES: On this point of social media, there is this debate about the ways
in which social media can be a mob. It can shame people and sometimes for
really silly things. But this also struck me as like the other side of it,
which is like there is a public shaming and there are survivors who talk
about the strength of social media -- a public shaming that has been done
through social media that was blocked before.
Yeah, one of the women said, you know, even in 2005 which is when Andrea
Constan (ph), you know, pursued legal action with Bill Cosby, it was shut
HAYES: It was on The Today Show and then it was.
MALONE: Well, and people -- you know, there were a bunch of articles that
sort of implicitly implied, oh, these women are, you know, out to make a
quick buck. And that has not the reaction this time around. I think
people really want to listen to these women now.
HAYES: All right, Noreen Malone, New York Magazine. It`s their cover
story. And it`s also a reminder, I grew up in magazine journalism. And
magazines are great things. And what a great magazine feature, great
magazine cover can do. It`s really an excellent piece of work. So, thank
you to everyone there.
MALONE: If you go buy it in print, keep magazines alive.
HAYES: You could go buy it in print and give them the -- and they give you
the -- that is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts
right now. Good evening, Rachel.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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