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All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, July 30th, 2015

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Date: July 30, 2015
Guest: Michelle Goldberg, Brett Jones,Liz Mair, Robert Costa, Anthony
Baxter, Phillip Atiba Goff, Steve Osborne


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As far as preparing for the
debates, I am who I am. I don`t know. I`ve never debated before. I`m not
a debater, I get things done.

HAYES: With Trump on course to take center stage in the first Republican
debate next week, new details on the desperate behind the scenes scramble
by the other contenders.

TRUMP: I have no idea how I`ll do. Maybe I`ll do terribly, maybe I`ll do

HAYES: Then, the officer who shot and killed Samuel DuBose, makes his
first court appearance.


JUDGE: Ladies and gentlemen, you will conduct yourselves at all times.

HAYES: Amid new questions about the accounts of the other officers on the

MARK O`MARA, ATTORNEY: If you don`t stop cops who are willing to cover up,
you will not address the problem, ever.

HAYES: Plus, Confederate flags placed at Dr. King`s church.

Federal officials currently hunting for Minnesota dentist who killed Cecil
the Lion.

And the former CIA contractor who says he was targeted for being gay.

FORMER CIA CONTRACTOR: I`m the only one who is here that is gay, and
everyone knows that I`m gay.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

With just one week until the Republican Party`s first presidential debate,
and much of the field to prepare, the current front-runner Donald Trump
seemed pretty darned relaxed today, as he piloted a golf cart around a
luxury course that he owns in Scotland. The Donald emerged from a giant
Trump branded helicopter to attend the Women`s British Open. And just as
star golfer Michelle Wie predicted, his presence turned the tournament
itself into something of a sideshow.

Trump was trailed by a scrum of reporters, many of whom he seemed to have
little patience for, even as he vowed he would be a great diplomat as


TRUMP: What was it, Katy, 25? Twenty-five to Trump?

What do you mean it was up there? You know what the number is.

If it were bad numbers, she would have known. You don`t know what the
major polls, Katy, so how would you know? Obviously, you don`t want to be
an inaccurate reporter like many others.

People have apologized to me. Maybe one day you`ll apologize, too. I
mean, you can`t even ask a question.

I think why get along -- wait. I think I would get along very well with a
lot of people.


HAYES: Meanwhile, back at home, there is rising panic within the GOP about
just what might go down in next week`s debate. The field now includes 17
major candidates, but under the rules set out by FOX News, which is hosting
the debate, only the candidates polling in the top ten will be able to
participate, though there will be a separate debate earlier in the day for
the also-rans.

Fox says it will use an average of five national polls to determine the top
10, and that whoever has the highest will be center change.

Right now, according to MSNBC`s calculations, Trump is leading is the pack,
and thus in the center. Chris Christie and John Kasich are hanging on for
dear life in the nine and tenth spots.

But there`s a big wrinkle in all of this. Nobody knows exactly which polls
FOX plans to use, and FOX isn`t telling.

According to some excellent reporting by Gabe Sherman in "New York"
magazine, advisers for both John Kasich and Rick Perry who just outside the
top 10 have been be lobbying Roger Ailes at FOX to choose polls that would
get their candidates in, since Ailes, as FOX News president, has ultimate
power over the debate.

According to one FOX News personality, there is total confusion about how
things will play out, with Ailes see in the second floor making it up as
they go along.

There`s also a reportedly unease among the candidates themselves about the
pitfalls of having to stand near the unpredictable Trump on the debate
stage, not to mention how they`ll navigate questions on the fraught topic
of immigration now that Trump, the leader of the pack, has staked out a
position of deporting all 11 million of the current undocumented immigrants
living in the U.S.

The only person in all of this who doesn`t seem to be sweating what`s going
to go down is Trump himself.


TRUMP: As far as preparing for the debates, I am who I am. I don`t know.
I`ve never debated before. I`m not a debater. I get things done.

Those guys debate every night in their life. That`s all they do is they
debate. They debate all over the place and nothing happens.

So, I`m sort of the opposite. So, I have no idea. I am who I am. I`ll
show up, I look forward to it, and that`s all I can do. I have no idea how
I`ll do. Maybe I`ll do terribly, maybe I`ll do great.


HAYES: Joining me now, Republican strategist Liz Mair, who has worked with
both Rick Perry and Carly Fiorina, and Robert Costa, national political
reporter with "The Washington Post."

Liz, let me start with you.

I am fascinated by the scuttlebutt among the kind of Republican political
strategic class about this phenomenon and the debate. I mean, I think at
first people thought, well, we`ll wait this out, this is a summer squall
that will, you know, drop a lot of rain and then move on. There`s got to
be some starting to think this is going to stick around a while.

LIZ MAIR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think people do anticipate that
probably the Trump phenomenon will continue for at least a few more weeks,
though there are some problems that you see with some of his numbers, if
you dig into certain polls.

I certainly think amongst a lot of the candidates, there has been a great
deal of angst about the debates, setting aside what we have seen with Trump
for quite some time, because we do have a very wide field. We have a
debate structure that was set up to address problems that occurred in the
2012 cycles. It does not address the problem we are dealing with at this
particular juncture.

And there are a lot of very qualified candidates who are not polling in a
position where they`re going to make it into the debate. And that is a
problem for the candidates, for the campaigns, for their supporters, but
also, frankly, it`s of concern I think to a lot of people within the party
writ large and the RNC itself, because if these people don`t make it in,
we`re actually failing to give an accurate presentation of what the
Republican Party is today, in terms of its experiential, philosophical and
demographic diversity.

A lot of people are very, very aggrieved to that.

HAYES: Well, let me say this segue is perfectly into the conceptual heart
of the matter here which is this, the Republican party, for all intents and
purposes, has ceased to exist as an institution with any power over this
process. The power right now lies in Roger Ailes. People are lobbying,
they`re not lobbying Reince Priebus. They`re lobbying Roger Ailes.

They don`t care what polls Reince Priebus calculates, Robert.

MAIR: Right.

HAYES: They care what Roger Ailes does. Roger Ailes has succeeded in
supplanting, fully institutionally the Republican Party, and we`re seeing
it happen before our eyes. Do you agree, Robert?

ROBERT COSTA, THE WASHINGTON POST: At least for this debate, the media has
a major role to play, and every single one of these nine debates, the next
network that has it will have the same power over the criteria of who gets
on the stage or not. But I think your point about an a weak party is
powerful one and it`s reflected by the summer of discontent within the GOP.
You have a coup attempt in the House, you have a senator calling the
majority leader in the Senate a liar, you have Trump leading the polls.
This is a party struggling with defining what and who it is.

MAIR: Well, I would also just jump in for a second and say one of the
other things that I think really speak to that point is if you look at the
communications director of their Republican National Committee`s own op-ed
in "Wall Street Journal" about the debates, and he is expressly saying
there`s nothing the RNC can do, which I don`t totally agree with. I think
the RNC still has some capacity in the form of bully pulpit, but basically
he`s saying in that FOX is setting all of the rules and calling all of the
shots, which is a tricky situation, definitely for candidates to navigate,
because they do have to lobby Ailes directly. And nobody knows what`s
going to happen.

HAYES: Robert?

COSTA: It sometimes feel though that the RNC gets too much attention. The
RNC has a role to play in organizing the debates and has tried to limit
from -- they had 20 in 2012, now nine this time around. The RNC has a role
to play, but it`s not the most powerful force in this party. When you
think of the party, you don`t think of the RNC. You think of the GOP as an
idea, the sprawling base versus the establishment, all these different
factions, 17 candidates.

It`s not about the RNC. It`s about a party that`s broader than that
organization having a lot of problems right now.

HAYES: But this raises the crux of the issue, right? Which is two forces
have now converged as we stand here looking at this debate a week from now,
a sort of official kickoff, which is the campaign finance regulation that
was passed from the McCain/Feingold, which made the party apparatus much
less power financially, followed by Citizens United, which makes outside
mega donors far, far more powerful, with the rise of the conservative
media, all of those things have combined, meaning the Republican Party as
an institution, as an idea, as a vehicle, is essentially beside the point.

I mean, it is increasingly irrelevant from the lived experience of the
actual way this campaign is being conducted. Or am I wrong, Liz?

MAIR: Well, I think there are some other components to this. I mean, I
think when you look at the philosophical diversity within the party, you`re
not necessarily seeing when you talk about conservative media, for example,
this sort of brand of conservatism that you see out there in conservative
media is not necessarily reflective of the brand of conservatism that you
see with a Rand Paul or with a Mike Huckabee. There`s a lot of spread, or
certainly with like a Jeb Bush or John Kasich.

There`s a lot of spread going on, and I think a lot of this is diverse
responses to a lot of events that have actually occurred in politics and
with policy over really probably the last 8 to 15 years, and so that
fracturing is something that the party is having to contend with.

You know, I agree with Bob that really you should necessarily have the RNC
being the one calling all of these shots, and that`s probably not the
appropriate way to look at it. But when you are looking at that kind of
fragmentation, there are a lot of people that want the RNC to step up, to
maybe provide some sort of predictability to the process. At the moment,
that`s a real challenge for a lot of the campaigns, because there`s no
predictability, and they are all having to work on the presumption they
will find out next week and they may have, I don`t know, what 24, 48 hours`
notice whether they`re in or whether they`re out, and that`s a very tricky
situation to be in operationally.

HAYES: Final point here, Bob, is -- immigration is going to come off and
there`s going to be a moment, and it`s going to like that Rick Perry DREAM
Act moment back in 2012 when he defended himself on allowing undocumented
students to attend Texas universities, and Mitt Romney pounced on him, and
that hurt him and then it hurt Mitt Romney in the general.

There`s going to be a guy on stage saying, deport all 11 million, and that
is going to be a huge political and substantive test for every one on that

COSTA: It is. And everyone talks about how this debate, Chris, is about
Trump. And I think you`re right, this is about immigration, perhaps more
about Jeb Bush and some of the other top tier contenders like Scott Walker.

So, the Trump sideshow is part of it, but how are they going to handle
immigration? Does Bush really come out and talk about a path to
legalization? Does he articulate in a way in front of these millions of
conservatives and really make a case?

HAYES: Yes. Liz Mair and Bob Costa, thank you both.

MAIR: Thanks.

HAYES: All right. Not one but two documentaries have been made involving
property development by Donald Trump, particularly his golf course in
Scotland and the tactics he`s used to get what he wants.


ANTHONY BAXTER, FILMMAKER: You`ve been accused of bullying the local
people of the many estate, the local residents.



TRUMP: Well, this is a bit like your documentary, Anthony. I mean, you
show scenes like that, and it`s very hard to counteract a statement from
such a woman. She actually reminds me a bit of my mother, if you want to
know the truth. She looks like a lovely woman.

BAXTER: You pursued her for legal costs when she took out court action
against her. You pursued a 86-year-old pensioner for legal costs, and how
do you think that comes across, Mr. Trump, to people in Scotland?

TRUMP: Well, let`s put it differently. We pursued Michael Forbes.
Michael Forbes was not fair to us, was not nice to us.


HAYES: Joining me now, filmmaker and investigative journalist Anthony
Baxter, director of "A Dangerous Game" and "You`ve Been Trumped".

Anthony, how duty end up with a film that centers around Trump?

BAXTER: Well, I live in a small town on the east coast of Scotland. When
Donald Trump first came to Scotland in 2005, just up the road from where I
live. And he came in saying I`m going to create jobs, 6,000 jobs was the
promise. And he was going to bring economic prosperity to the area was the

The local media seemed to eat that up and were obsessed with Trump`s
celebrity when he came into Scotland. But I knew what he was going to do
is build a golf course on one of our last remaining wilderness area, an
incredibly beautiful stretch of dunes land, which was supposed to be
protected by the Scottish government.

And so, I picked up the camera, remortgaged the house and started to
document what I was going on. And what I saw was very, very troubling

HAYES: What did you find out about the way that Trump does business,
during your investigation?

BAXTER: Well, I think what we`ve been seeing recently is his inflammatory
and dangerous things that he`s been saying, but what I found is the
dangerous things that he actually does. I found how he had cut off the
water supply to a local farmer, Michael Forbes, and this 86-year-old woman.
That was done accidentally by his work force as they were building a road
leading to the golf course.

But in the new film "A Dangerous Game" which is released now on iTunes, we
found how five years on that`s still the case. A 91-year-old woman is
still without a proper working water supply. Mounds of earth were built
next to residents` homes and they were bullied and harassed. We discovered
how the environmental impact of his golf course was even greater than we
even imagined.

And so, it`s a documenting of what really happens, and what he does as
being so dangerous.

HAYES: If you go around to that area where you`re from where that golf
course is built and you say the name "trump," what kind of reaction do you

BAXTER: Well, I think people saw in my first film "You`re Being Trumped",
the reality of the situation on local residents now. The public perception
turned against Mr. Trump after the documentary was aired by the BBC. He
threatened to sue the BBC for showing the film. I was arrested and thrown
in jail when I questioned how Michael Forbes and his mother have been
treated and how their water supply had been cut off, because it seemed to
ask the local police were acting as a private security force for Donald

And when people saw that on their screens, they were utterly appalled. And
so, I think it was a turning point in terms of public perception. Up until
that point, Mr. Trump kept claiming that he had 93 percent support in the

Well, that poll he referred to was never done. It was never 93 percent
support. And the reality is that after all these years, the 6,000 jobs
that he promised recently he`s been talking about being the jobs president,
while the reality in Scotland is out of the 6,000 jobs promised, 200 have
been created. Out of $1.5 billion pledged, a fraction of that has been
invested. What we have is one golf course and none of the economic
prosperity that was supposed to happen.

HAYES: That sounds like an interesting warning for potential American
voters, from Anthony Baxter.

Thank you very much.

BAXTER: Thank you.

HAYES: Still to come: newly released body camera races even more questions
about the shooting of Samuel Dubose.

Plus, a former senator claims a CEO with a $75 million retirement package
was exploited. Well, I don`t think that word means what he think it is

Plus, the first openly gay Navy SEAL files a complaint with the CIA,
alleging he was the target of homophobic bullies. He joins me live.


UNDENTIFIED MALE: It`s pretty derogatory stuff towards the LGBT community
directed at me. I`m the only one here who`s gay.



HAYES: At 6:00 a.m. today, a maintenance worker at Ebenezer Baptist Church
in Atlanta where Dr. Martin Luther King was baptized, where he and his
father were pastors, where he was eulogized, was confronted with this --
Confederate flags, four of them, on the grounds of that historic church, as
well as the Martin Luther King Jr. Visitor Center.

The maintenance worker notified the National Parks Service, and soon, local
law enforcement was involved. One of the Confederate flags was reportedly
placed below a Black Lives Matter Hands Up poster near a garbage can.

All the flags were gathered into a police car, and authorities say there`s
video surveillance which may show two white men responsible for the act.

The senior pastor of the church, Dr. Raphael Warnock, called it a cowardly
act and placed it in context.


of all that`s happening, whatever the message was, it was clearly not about
heritage. It was about hate. It`s the kind of statement we would
characterize as a terroristic threat. Some have been afraid to attach that
term for some reasons when it comes to black churches, but the idea of
terrorism cannot be a racialized idea if we were serious about equal
treatment under the law.


HAYES: The investigation is ongoing.


HAYES: A former University of Cincinnati police officers indicted in the
fatal shooting of Samuel DuBose made his first court appearance this
morning where he pled not guilty to murder and manslaughter charges. As
the judge set bond for Ray Tensing at $1 million, some onlookers could not
contain their reaction.


JUDGE: The defendant is facing the possibility of life in prison. It`s
the court`s duty to ensure his appearance. The bond will be $1 million


JUDGE: Ladies and gentlemen, this is a courtroom.


HAYES: Tensing has since posted bond, speaking to NBC News correspondent
Sarah Dallof, Tensing`s lawyer maintained his client acted in self defense,
though many are questioning Tensing`s account based on the video from his
body camera.


STEW MATHEWS, LAWYER FOR RAY TENSING: He had a legitimate fear he was
going to be run over by his car and killed, and he was defending himself.

SARAH DALLOF, NBC NEWS: You know, you know hear him saying I was being
dragged. Does he still maintain that happened?

MATHEWS: Absolutely.

DALLOF: It doesn`t appear to show that on the video. In fact, on the
first body cam video, it doesn`t appear his on the ground and falls until -
- or the car moves until the first shot is fired?

MATHEWS: You know, it all happened so quickly, that I`m not sure -- I
don`t know what happened.


HAYES: Tensing`s report of being dragged by DuBose`s car was corroborated
by another officer who responded to the scene, Philip Kidd. According to
the incident report, Kidd said he actually witnessed the Honda Accord
dragged Officer Tensing. Video from Office Kidd`s camera, along with that
from another responding officer was released today. But it`s not clear how
much he my have seen of the incident.

Tensing appears briefly on the left side of the frame and both he and
Officer Kidd are already running toward DuBose`s car when the video starts.

Both the officers who respond to the scene, Philip Kidd and David
Lindensmith (ph) are now on paid administrative leave, according to the
University of Cincinnati.

The office of Hamilton County prosecutor Joe Deters said other officers
involved in the incident are being investigated, but they have not been
identified. In an interview with NBC News, the lawyer for the DuBose
family, Mark O`Mara, questioned the culture of the University of Cincinnati
Police Department.


O`MARA: One bad cop, you indict the cop. That`s now happened. Two bad
cops, you may have to indict the department. Even if you stop the murder,
if you don`t stop cops who are willing to cover up, you will not address
the problem, ever.


HAYES: Joining me now, Phillip Atiba Goff, he`s cofounder and president of
the Center for Policing Equity, and Steve Osborne, 20-year veteran of the
NYPD, author of "The Job: Two Tales from a Life of a New York City Cop."

Let`s start with the other officers. There`s two incident reports. One of
them appears to be the officer saying what Tensing told him, which OK, fair
enough. The other seems to be an officer either drastically misrembering
or fabricating to cover for his colleague.

Your reaction, Phil?

difficult to say, given that we don`t have the body camera feed from before
the running incident happens. I think this is also part of the issue we`ve
had when we`ve been talking about body cameras as if they were a panacea
for everything. Even Tensing`s body camera, it becomes blurry at the
moment when you think my goodness this is when the shooting is happening.

So, it`s not entirely clear whether the shot is fired first or the car
starts to move first. So, here I have concerns about jumping to
conclusions based on either of those reports.

HAYES: Do cops cover for other cops?

STEVE OSBORNE, RETIRED NYPD OFFICER: Everybody likes to believe that, but
I`m telling you, most cops I know, you know, nobody is going to jail to
cover up for another guy who made a mistake or did something criminal. I
mean, people like to believe that, but I don`t know anybody who is willing
to go to jail for somebody else over that.

HAYES: But it`s interesting, you say willing to go to jail, right, because
the idea is how will they go to jail? Because prosecutions in these cases
happen so rarely, just as sort of a statistical matter. I mean, we have
560 police shootings, we`ve had four prosecutions in 2015. I mean, that
doesn`t seem to me -- maybe you want to cover for somebody or don`t for
whatever reason, but the threat of jail, does that hang over a cop when you
come out of this sort of thing?

OSBORNE: Absolutely, especially on an incident like this. You know this
is going to be investigated upside down by everybody, by your own
department, by internal affairs, by the D.A.`s office, by the feds.
Everybody will investigate this.

You know the truth will come out in the end. So, why would you say
something that`s not true?

HAYES: Right, but that applies -- I mean, a lot of people were saying this
about Tensing, right? I mean, here is a guy who has a body camera, knows
he has a body camera, says that he was dragged by the car, right? Body
camera comes out and shows he wasn`t dragged by the car, and people are
thinking, why would he possibly fabricate something that is so obviously
contradicted by the body camera, and also seems like an argument for body

GOFF: Well, it`s an argument for body cameras, but I guess I have to push
back a bit. It doesn`t look as if he`s dragged. I want to see what`s
going on with the uniform, because in one of the reports it says it was cut
up as if he was dragged for quite a long time. And that doesn`t seem
consistent with what we`ve seen.

But if you got a hand in a car and it starts to move and you feel your feet
moving, if you feel as if you`re being dragged, the exaggerations that
adrenaline brings to you, right, it feels like lying from the people
looking outside, right? But it doesn`t feel like that way from the inside.
If your life is dependant on other people you`re going to call --

HAYES: No, wait a second. So, you think he`s not lying.

GOFF: I didn`t say I think he`s not lying. What I`m saying is there`s a
world of possibility where this is more exaggeration than it is malicious.

HAYES: OK. But it gets to the heart of the matter here, which is that it
seems that the fear of -- for one`s life can always be possible, right?
So, we can say -- we can look at that tape, and you can say, I as some
omniscient god-like figure come in and I open the head of Tensing, and I
look in it and I see that he was genuinely afraid for his life at that
moment, and that then means it`s fine?

GOFF: Absolutely, categorically no. OK?

HAYES: But that`s what happens, and that`s how juries think about it.
Look at what happens in courtrooms.

GOFF: I understand. So, what I`m saying that we should be doing is taking
several steps back, because in the end, what happens is, you have someone
who was pulled over, at least ostensibly for not having a front license
plate and possibly also for driving a little bit erratically possibly, and
he`s dead at the end of the incident, right?

That should be unacceptable. It`s not about, well, you know, his behavior
should have been this, he should have been more responsive. It`s the fact
that in the end, a minor offense ends up in death. That is the think we`ve
got to be focusing on.

Deters called it chicken crap stop yesterday, which I thought was
fascinating. He`s a prosecutor, right, this guy, Republican prosecutor of
Hamilton County, real law-and-order reputation, not a reputation as any
bleeding heart at all, and he said two things that I thought were so
notable. He said, it was a chicken crap spot, and he said if the guy is
going to drive away, let him drive away.

What do you think?

OSBORNE: I don`t agree with either one. If you see a car without a front
plate, I mean, I`ve done it. If there`s no front plate, you think maybe
the car is stolen. You`re going to run it. Several times I`ve pulled over
somebody without a front plate. They didn`t even know their front plate
was missing, you know, something stole it off the car and you`re telling.

So, it`s not chicken whatever stop --

HAYES: What about letting him just drive away?

OSBORNE: At that point, if you let him drive away, I think he handed the
cop a bottle of gin, he`s got no license, you have to make that choice.
Once he started that car and he started to flee and the cop has to make a
decision -- if it didn`t go that way, if it didn`t shoot, the cop has to
make a decision, whether he`s going to let this guy take off, and maybe he
runs someone over down the block. The cop is responsible.

HAYES: But this is the same thing as Walter Scott, right? I mean, Walter
Scott got out of the car and he ran away, right? He ran away because he
had a warrant on missed child support. He didn`t want to go back to jail,
right? The question is why do you --

OSBORNE: You made a good point -- this is something that nobody is talking
about. Up to the point where the car stop, spun wildly out of control, the
cop was as polite and professional as could be. He spoke to the driver, he
asked him numerous times for his driver`s license. If that individual
would have just listened to that officer, if he would have complied, if he
could have --

HAYES: People hear that --

OSBORNE: -- none of those would have happened.

HAYES: People hear that -- but people hear that, and that sounds like,
I`ve got to -- cops tell me this all the time. They tell me this all the
time. Just listen to what a cop says.

And you know what I say? I`m an American and I have rights, OK? I don`t
live in a state in which the authority of the law looms over me such that
they can just tell me what to do no matter what. Like that is
circumscribed by a document that literally our founders fought and died for
that protects us and endows with protections from arbitrary state power to
just say jump, how high?

OSBORNE: The street is not the place to litigate these things. If you
feel the officer is wrong, after you can make a civilian complaint, you can
get a lawyer and sue the police department. There`s a million lawyers that
will take your case. The street is not the place to litigate this.

HAYES: That`s what every officer says.

GOFF: That`s exactly right. That`s what every line officer says and this
is where you and I part company on this, as we were talking about before,
because regardless of what I want to teach, you know, my future children or
I tell my friends to do during a stop, the consequences of not being an
ideal citizen in relationship to an officer should not be death. That`s
the thing that I find most objectionable to the way in which we frame this.

It can`t just be about their behavior. If somebody is a bad mood, they
shouldn`t die for that. And what we have right here in the worst-case
scenario, the most ungenerous reading of Sam DuBose, in that day he was
possibly inebriated. He had, a front license plate off and he didn`t
behave properly. And for that, he is dead. That can`t be okay.

OSBOURNE: That`s correct. But let me explain something to you, me as a
police officers, I pull you over, I understand this is a stressful
situation. Nobody likes getting pulled over. It`s stressful situation for
me also. I do not know who you are...

HAYES: I know, every cop says that.

OSBOURNE: You can be sitting on a 9 millimeter waiting to light me up.

HAYES: But at the end of the day, we have got 560 dead citizens, some
percentage of those armed and some percent of those killings possibly
completely justified, right.

But the way the balance of this hangs, I mean, the scales tip in one
direction and that`s just sort of a fact of the numbers at this point.

Phillip Atiba Goff, Steve Osbourne, I would love to have you guys back to
do this again. Thank you very much

Coming up, the first openly gay Navy SEAL files a complaint with the CIA
alleging he was targeted for sexuality. He`ll join me ahead.


HAYES: If I were to ask you who the most persecuted people in America are,
what bigotry is at the top of the list, would your answer be bigotry
against the successful? Well, that`s what former Texas Senator Phil Graham
said this week at a House committee hearing. When asked about the
regulatory burden on private businesses, the retired senator pivoted,
lamenting the plight of the successful.


PHIL GRAHAM, FRM. TEXAS SENATOR: Well, look, it goes way beyond paperwork.
What all this is about is political demagoguery, it`s the one form of
bigotry that is still allowed in America, and that`s bigotry against the


HAYES: But Graham,whose name is on the financial deregulation bill that is
largely viewed as one of the key contributors to the biggest financial
crisis in 80 years saved his most righteous indignation for the evidence of
such bigotry, that people gave his former CEO buddy and, quote, exploited
worker guff for his $75 million retirement package.


GRAHAM: My friend Ed Whitaker, AT&T, if there`s ever been an exploited
worker, even though they made a big deal about him getting $75 million when
he retired, the man added billions dollars of value. He was exploited. It
was an outrage.


HAYES: According to the Wall Street Journal Whitaker`s retirement package
from AT&T was actually closer to $160 million. Just terribly, terribly


HAYES: Former Navy SEAL Brett Jones, the first openly gay member of that
elite unit, has filed a complaint alleging he was the victim of homophobic
bullying while deployed as a CIA contractor last month in Afghanistan.

Jones, who says his family helped convince him to write a memoir called
"Pride: The Story of the First Openly Gay Navy SEAL" says he experienced
such a disturbing pattern of harassment last month from his fellow
contractors, he concocted a fake story in order to get on a helicopters and

Writing in his 15 page complaint, Jones said that, quote, "I called my
husband, woke him up and filled him in on everything that had happening,
unsure of who I could trust at this point, I contacted a deputy director
and told him of the fake family emergency."

Around the same time, Jones also recorded a rather chilling message on his
cell phone.


BRETT JONES, RETIRED NAVY SEAL: My name is Brett Jones. It is July 2nd,
2:45. The reason I`m making this is in the event that something happens to
me, I guess that there`s evidence.


HAYES: This afternoon the CIA sent a statement to All In which reads in
part, "CIA has no comments on specific allegations raised. We take very
seriously any allegation of sexual, racial or any form of harassment and/or
discrimination at the CIA. We have a zero tolerance policy against such
behavior and CIA leadership is committed to holding all employees
accountable for living and promoting this policy."

Joining me now is former Navy SEAL Brett Jones.

Now, Mr. Jones, can you tell me what started to happen when you landed on
assignment working for this contractor that was contracted with the CIA in

JONES: Well, when I arrived, there were a series of things that were
happening. When I got off the plane, there wasn`t a vehicle to pick me up,
which was unusual, but not the end of the world. When I got into our team
room, I noticed that as soon as I walked in a bunch of guys sort of walked

It was a lot of little things over the course of about two weeks that were
happening, leading up to me overhearing a conversation where one of the
guys used the word -- the F word describing gay people negatively, and I
had to pull him off to the side and talk to him about it.

And then it was just a series of things after that. Lots of little things,
but leading up to being left on a mountain as they drove off and left me,
and they eventually did come back and pick me up, but it wasn`t -- it
wasn`t in a joking manner.

This wasn`t a playful sort of thing. The whole trip I was there, the
tension was just so thick, and it led up to a PowerPoint presentation right
before a fairly dangerous brief, and that PowerPoint presentation had some
of the most disgusting things I`ve seen on them.

I knew that I needed to retrieve that PowerPoint presentation for evidence,
and so I woke up early the next morning to do just that, and discovered a
bunch of racist pictures being used as a screen saver on one of the
computers right as you come in and out of the team room. So I had no idea
where this began or where it ended.

HAYES: You -- I want to go back to this incident where you were left on a
mountain, just to be clear, because there is some sense in which you felt
genuine threat from the men you were working with. These were fellow
contractors, is that right?

JONES: It was both contractors and agency staff.

HAYES: And agency staff.

You`re saying they -- they out of essentially anti-gay animus from the
beginning they knew you were openly gay, they treated you differently, and
out of that anti-gay animus, they left you on a mountain and drove off?

JONES: It`s -- yeah, in a nutshell, that`s basically what happened. Yeah.

They did come back and pick me up.

HAYES: What were the circumstances? You were there essentially doing a
security sweep, right? And you got out of the vehicle and then they just
got in the vehicle and drove off?

JONES: Well, actually I had asked everyone to load up this vehicle,
I needed to test -- I was in charge all of the fleet out there, so I needed
to test this vehicle, because we were going to put some new equipment in
it. And this equipment was rather heavy, so I needed about eight guys,
four guys in the cab and four guys in the back of the truck. And the truck
got to a particularly dangerous part of a mountain trail. And I decided to
get out of the back of the truck and advised the other guys to do the same.
The other guys stayed in just in case the
truck rolled.

And when I got out, they drove through that difficult portion of the trail
as I walked behind, and I started jogging to get back up in the vehicle and
they drove off.

HAYES: At some point, I want to show some of the PowerPoint presentation
that you were able to get year hands on, the -- can we show that in a
second in describing you as call you gay-gay or Frank & Beans, right? I
mean, this was part of a security briefing to the whole team in which they
were essentially calling you out this way in an federal document?

JONES: Yes. It was -- it was pretty disturbing at the time.

And right before a very dangerous mission.

Now, these missions -- this kind of a group of people, teamwork is
essential to mission success. You have to go out of that wire confident
that every one of
those guys is going to have your back and you`ll have theirs. You have to
have that kind of confidence to be successful in that line of work.

HAYES: All right. Brett Jones, thank you for your time tonight.
Appreciate it.

Still ahead, the dentist accused of killing Cecil the Lion is facing a
barrage of threats and an inquiry from federal officials . Stay with us.


HAYES: Before it even opened on Broadway "Hamilton" the musical brought in
over $27 million, it sold over 200,000 advanced tickets. The hip-hop
phenomenon starring a diverse cast and focusing on the life of founding
father Alexander Hamilton is so huge even President Obama went to New York
to see it earlier this month with his daughters. And it`s all the
brainchild of writer, actor and composer Lin Manuel Miranda.

Now I got to interview him for the latest cover story of Billboard magazine
alongside the producers of Hamilton`s cast album, Black Thought and Quest
Love of The Roots. We talked about everything from President Obama`s visit
to Donald Trump`s influence on the the immigration debate to the genius of
Alexander Hamilton himself, something Lin also touched on when we last
spoke about his groundbreaking musical earlier this year.


LIN MANUEL MIRANDA, COMPOSER: He really wrote his way out of his
circumstances and sort of played catch-up. He was reading about monetary
policy during the revolutionary war in the event that he would be called to
service -- like he was thinking ten steps ahead.

I mean, I think -- if that`s the essence of genius, if it`s, OK, we have to
win this war, but we also have to like figure out how to not be in
perpetual revolution, which is what we saw all over the world today, which
is what we see time and time again throughout history.


HAYES: The new cover story of Billboard magazine is already online. You
can find a link to it on our Facebook page, Facebook/AllInwithChris.


HAYES: Tonight U.S. authorities are on the hunt for William Palmer, the
man responsible for the death of Cecil, the famed Zimbabwe lion, earlier
this month. Days after Palmer said authorities have not contacted him, the
U.S. Fish & Wildlife
Service made clear they have made multiple efforts to reach the Minnesota-
based dentist. They`ve been resorted -- they`ve even resorted to tweeting
at him saying, quote, "we`re investigating the killing of Cecil the Lion.
We`ll go where facts lead. We ask Dr. Palmer or his rep to contact us

Yesterday, protesters camped out at his Minnesota dental office, with signs
that read rot in hell and #justiceforcecil Extradite Walter Palmer.

Meanwhile, over 100,000 people signed on a White House petition calling for
Palmer to be extradited. And today Cecil and the dentist accused of
killing him, even made it into the White House press briefing room.


reached that threshold. And so there will be a forthcoming White House

The thing that I will say is, as a general matter, is that decisions about
prosecution and extradition are made over at the Department of Justice.


HAYES: Walter Palmer now finds himself in the center of a genuine social
media phenomenon. Thousands of people hurled insults at him using his name
as a hashtag. His dental practice`s Yelp page has been flooded with
negative comments like what a true piece of garbage you are, Palmer.
Something should -- someone should do to you as you have done to others.
And if you want a narcissistic idiot who has no values, scruples and no
remorse, this is your guy.

Personal details including about his family have been published by
activists on the internet, according to The New York Times, including by
actress Mia Farrow, who apparently tweeted the dentist`s home address and
then removed it.

Walter Palmer, the man accused of killing Cecil the Lion has been charged
with any crime. In a statement this week, he said, quote, "I had no idea
lion I took was a known local favorite, was collared and part of a study
until the end of the hunt."

His guide spoke for the first time today saying, quote, "we would never
shoot a collared animal. I was devastated and so was the client. We were
both upset."

Yet minute by minute, the calls for justice for Walter Palmer seem to come
from all corners of the internet, which prompts the question, have we
replaced the stocks with vigilante digital justice? More on that, next.


HAYES: Joining me now, my friend and colleague Michelle Goldberg of The
Nation who has written on the topic of Twitter public shaming specifically.

So, OK, what is your reaction to the reaction to killing Cecil the Lion as
it`s playing out?

MICHELLE GOLDBERG, THE NATION: So, I don`t want say -- I don`t want anyone
to think that I am kind of pro-lion killing, right? I mean, it seems to me

HAYSE: Let`s just stipulate -- let`s start here. It appears what this guy
did was both a crime and even if not a crime, is like a pretty awful thing
to do that I think is a bad thing that people should feel badly about

GOLDBERG: Right. Yeah, big game hunting strikes me as despicable, Lion
hunting, it seems like should probably be illegal, although I understand
that there is some argument about conservationists.

What I guess kind of bothers me is that he had -- I don`t know that what he
has done is leagues more morally disreputable than what every other game
hunter and every other big game hunter, and every other lion hunter. I`m
not sure that it is that much more immoral to kill a lion who has a name
then to kill an anonymous lion.

And so, in a way, he`s been sort of, you know, picked out of this anonymous
herd of big game hunters and subject to a level of kind of public shame and
personal destruction and right just kind of, you know, reputational
annihilation that I don`t think there`s any real coming back from, for
violating a rule that he didn`t necessarily have any way to know existed.

And I mean the kind of social appropriate attached to killing a beloved
lion. Not poaching, right...

HAYES: So here`s the other side of that argument. First of all is, maybe
he did commit a crime, and maybe he did know, and the thing he did was a
lot of people find disgusting and morally reprehensible. And if this makes
an example out of someone and this actually brings changes to big game
hunting, all for the best.

And also, hey, so what? So, you have to live with some reputational
annihilation, like you just took this lion`s life.

GOLDBERG: I would say -- well, I understand-- I think that that is always
is the justification, right, for kind of mob justice. The person did
something, and so yes that kind of -- that allows you to feel righteous in
any sort of response.

And what`s going on here it seems is less about avenging my sense, is less
about avenging Cecil the Lion than it is about kind of indulging in the
sort of ecstasy of outrage. And you know it feels so good to be on the
side of righteousness and punishment, particularly when the person is
really -- when the person seems really, really deserving.

I would say that justice that is kind of random and has no real connection
to the severity of the crime -- you know, people always say, well, why this
guy and not this guy, but I would say that he is hardly the worst person in
the world this week. And so the idea that kind of to me that these public
shaming that these...

HAYES: John Ronson wrote a book about this, right.

GOLDBERG: And actually in John Ronson`s book, I think well you said so
what, you have some reputational annihilation. YOu know, people`s lives
are shattered, they`re -- you know, their relationships, their careers.
They are in therapy. And so...

HAYES: Let me argue the other side, though, right. You`ve got this guy,
you got Justine Saccho (ph) this woman who sent a dumb tweet and is an
example in the Ronson of a stupid tweet about going to Africa, and her life
was, you know, she was
blown up on Twitter. She was fired.

But then you have also got Bill Cosby, right. And this all seems like on
the same continuum, which is that Bill Cosby escaped accountability both
legally and reputationally for years, and when you talk to his alleged
victims now, they say it was social media, it was essentially this public
shaming function and its virility that for the first time is bringing

GOLDBERG: I think that`s true. And I think it`s not just Bill Cosby,
right. It`s like Ferguson, right? So it`s possible that kind of the price
we have to pay for the justice that social media has brought to Black Lives
Matter, to Sandra
Bland, all of these different cases that might have before gone under the
radar, maybe the price is that we`re all going to now live in this crowd
source Penopticon.

I think think the crowd source Penopticon is frightening and dangerous and
seeing this sort of frothing vengeance is really disturbing.

HAYES: There is something unnerving about it. I am with you on that.

Michelle Goldberg, thanks for you being here.

All right, that is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts
right now.


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