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'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Thursday, July 30th, 2015

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Date: July 30, 2015
Guest: Eugene Robinson, Shira Center, Christopher Cooper, Robert Hager,
Judd Apatow

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Ice breaker vessel trying to -- trying to
physically stop Shell`s efforts to drill the Arctic.

Activists who put themselves in the way of a Shell ship trying to head to
the Arctic, so Shell could start drilling, and that giant ice breaker
vessel trying to head out the Wallamba River into the Pacific Ocean.

These activists who were dangling from this bridge today and in kayaks on
the river, they did manage to turn back that huge Shell ship early this
morning, they held it back all day today in Portland.

It was just about an hour ago, this ice breaker from Shell managed to make
it past those protesters in a very dramatic, physical confrontation.

But that ice breaker is now on its way to the Arctic, it`s got a couple
more bridges to pass before it gets there though.

That does it for us tonight, we`ll see you again tomorrow, now it`s time
for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HSOT: Guess which presidential candidate
campaigned today in a place that has no presidential primary and no
electoral votes.


TRUMP ENTERTAINMENT RESORTS: I`m number one in all the polls.

ALEX WAGNER, MSNBC: Where else would you be? Republican frontrunner be,
but on a golf course in Scotland.

TRUMP: Our country is going to hell.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump takes on Scotland.

TRUMP: My mother was born in Scotland, my sons love to hunt, they`re great
marksmen, great shots --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trump is soaking up so much media attention --

TRUMP: This is worse than the U.S.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The countdown is on, as the first Republican debate --

TRUMP: As far as preparing for the debates, I am who I am.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this is a temporary, sort of loss of sanity.

TRUMP: The world would unite if I were the leader of the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The whole thing is just so improbable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump is not going away.

TRUMP: That`s your problem, not mine, have a good time.


O`DONNELL: Donald Trump became the first Republican candidate for
president to campaign in Scotland.

While a new national Quinnipiac University poll shows Donald Trump holding
the lead in the Republican field with 20 percent of the votes, Scott Walker
is in second place with 13 percent of the vote nationally.

And Jeb Bush is in third place at 10 percent, the rest of the candidates
are at 6 percent or below. Donald Trump is also at the top of the polls
"most disliked Republican".

Thirty percent of Republican voters say they would definitely not vote for
Donald Trump, ever. Chris Christie comes in second in the most disliked
category with 15 percent, saying they would never vote for Chris Christie.

On the Democratic side of the poll, Hillary Clinton gets 55 percent of the
Democratic voters nationwide with 17 percent for Bernie Sanders and 13
percent for Joe Biden, who is not a candidate for president.

Martin O`Malley, Lincoln Chafee and Jim Webber, all polling at 1 percent or
below. Here is some of what candidate Trump had to say to voters in


TRUMP: I think I`d be very diplomatic, people find that hard to believe,
but I think I`d be very diplomatic. I think I`d get along very well with
Vladimir Putin.

Obama and him -- he hates Obama. Obama hates him. We have unbelievably
bad relationships. Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State, she was the
worst Secretary of State in the history of our country, the world blew
apart during her reign.

Now she wants to be president.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Eugene Robinson, opinion writer for "The
Washington Post" and an Msnbc political analyst, Joy Reid, an Msnbc
national correspondent and Shira Center, political editor for "The Boston

Gene Robinson, Donald Trump now wants to be diplomat-in-chief.

what you think of when you think of Donald Trump.


ROBINSON: You think of exquisite and subtle diplomacy. This is -- this is
amazing. I for one simply cannot wait until next Thursday.

I`m like a kid of the week before Christmas, because that debate in
Cleveland is going to be a spectacle, the likes of which I don`t think
we`ve seen in a long time and it`s all going to center around Donald Trump.

O`DONNELL: And Joy, there`s a lot of speculation about how do the other
candidates handle Donald Trump.

Something that hasn`t gotten that much attention is how do the moderators
of this debate, the "Fox News" moderators of this debate handle Donald

They may have the bigger challenge.

JOY REID, MSNBC NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely, because the
fundamental unseriousness of Donald Trump is both his great advantage and
the thing that could give the other candidates potential.

But as you said, the moderates have to decide, do you ask Donald Trump a
serious foreign policy question? Do you ask him serious question about
domestic policy?

Because he is a fundamentally unserious candidate, but he`s also blowing up
the entire field. So, the whole ball game at that debate is how do the
actually serious candidates deal with him?

Does one of them have a sister-soldier moment where they can make him look
ridiculous and where they can sort of put him in his place the way he goes
around trying to put other people in their place.

So, the pivot is going to be really complicated because I think the
moderators don`t want to humiliate themselves by pretending that he has
some serious ideas on foreign policy.

But at the same time, they don`t want to belittle his followers, the people
who are at 30 percent or 20 percent in some polls, Republican voters who
are saying they actually do take him seriously.

So, it`s going to be difficult for the moderators to figure it out.

O`DONNELL: Shira Center, your newspaper, "The Boston Globe" is the -- is
the biggest newspaper that gets a close look at that New Hampshire primary.

The candidates have to buy Boston TV, expensive Boston TV to reach some of
the southern New Hampshire voters.

And you see Donald Trump not spending one penny on any of the traditional
stuff of campaigning including TV advertising.

But there he is at the top of polls while a lot of these other candidates
are already buying TV time in Boston and New Hampshire.

right. But Donald Trump doesn`t need to buy television right now, he`s had
a reality TV show on for the past decade or so.

His name ID is perfectly fine as we`ve seen in the Quinnipiac poll out
today, he is a sure thing to get in this Republican debate on Thursday.

He doesn`t need to dump millions on the airwaves right now, like for
example, John Kasich, the governor of Ohio who`s on the cusp of making it
in the top ten and might get into the debate in his home state on Thursday.

That said, even though he`s not buying TV, I have to tell you, the passion
is real in New Hampshire for him. We sent a reporter to cover his last
town hall in the state -- standing room only, hundreds out the door.

There is a real following for him here in New Hampshire. He doesn`t have
the greatest campaign organization here, certainly, but there is a

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what Trump said today in Scotland about the
Latino vote.


TRUMP: A poll just came out, a major poll of all the Republican
candidates, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re number one --

TRUMP: No, with Hispanics.


TRUMP: Who`s number one with Hispanics?


TRUMP: Trump.


TRUMP: If I get the nomination, I will win. I will get the Hispanic vote,
nobody else will, no other Republican will, I will because I will be
producing jobs and nobody else will be able to do that.

I will win the Hispanic vote.


O`DONNELL: And let`s take a look at that poll and show what is so
wonderful about this lead that he has. There is Donald Trump, he has 34
percent favorability with Hispanics.

That is the highest favorability that any Republican candidate has. Jeb
Bush has 31, Ted Cruz has 30. So 34 percent, highest favorability that any
Republican candidate has with the Hispanic vote, Trump is right about that.

Let`s look at the unfavorability number for Donald Trump, which is 59
percent with the Hispanic vote, which is also the highest unfavorability
rating that any candidate has with the Hispanic voters out there.

Bush is at 51, Ted Cruz at 54. And so, Gene Robinson, Donald is very much
a glass half full kind of guy.

ROBINSON: Well, at the moment, he occupies a political universe that does
not -- where the laws of this political universe do not apply.

It`s like a different physical laws. Like gravity doesn`t work the same
way in his universe as it works in this universe.

So, you can at once have the highest favorability and the highest
unfavorability, and you just motor along.

And so we`re going to get to the debate on Thursday. And I`m trying to
wonder like who among the other candidates is better at drawing attention
to themselves?

Who has more experience projecting a persona on television? Who`s going to
be better at filibustering? Who is going to be better at turning a question
against a questioner?

I -- you know, this could be -- this could -- this could be a disaster for
Trump and it also could be something of a reality showcase.

O`DONNELL: Yes, and Joy, we -- in this Quinnipiac poll that came out
today, we show Donald Trump losing to every Democratic candidate, including
Joe Biden who`s not a candidate.

Donald Trump in this poll loses to Hillary Clinton 48 to 36, loses to Joe
Biden 49 to 37 which is an academic point. But also, Donald Trump loses to
Bernie Sanders, Bernie Sanders at 45, Donald Trump at 36.

So, Joy Reid, how Donald Trump convinces Republicans that he should be on
that ticket against Bernie Sanders even is a very difficult case to make.

REID: Yes, I mean, because at the end of the day, Lawrence, I think we are
at the phase where there`s really no cost for voters, including in the
Republican base.

To just to enjoy sort of exercising their just fundamental rage at the
machine, right? That`s what -- that`s what the support for him is about.

This is about rage against the Republican Party establishment. This is
about wanting someone to just say what`s on his mind even what`s on if --
even if what`s on his mind is insane.

Even if it`s offensive, and I think they`re just enjoying the moment of
being able to have their kind of inner demons kind of expurgated and not
have anybody filter themselves or apologize.

So, there`s no cause to it right now. What`s going to be interesting is
the fact that the "Fox News" channel decided to have this debate at this
stage so early.

It keeps adding to Donald Trump`s kind of credibility with that same base,
and starts to convince them that they really could have a President Trump.

And I think the danger for the Republican Party is that when the sort of --
the money men whisk the curtain away and whisk that rug out from under
Donald Trump somehow and muffle him out.

You`re going to have a lot of angry base Republican voters who thought they
were going to get President Trump and they`re going to be really
disappointed and angry.

O`DONNELL: And Shira Center, it looks like in the latest average of polls,
John Kasich may have moved into the number ten spot, edging out Rick Perry.

So, John Kasich at 2.8 percent, may be on that stage with Donald Trump
who`s at 19.4 percent. And with Kasich up there, that may -- he maybe the
player on that debate stage that Donald Trump might have some trouble

CENTER: Yes, John Kasich also doesn`t have a whole lot to lose in this
situation, he wants to make a name for himself.

And if you`re one of these Republican candidates going into Thursday night,
I bet all of your consultants -- if you`re in the top-tier are telling you,
do not engage Donald Trump.

Whatever you do, but to ignore him, pretend he is not on the stage. But if
you`re in kind of that second tier, it has to be tempting for you.

It has to be tempting to just throw something at him, see, try and attack
him, and really make a name for yourself in this crowded and unpredictable
Republican field.

And John Kasich could do that, Rick Perry has already done that from the
sidelines, and if he makes the debate instead of John Kasich, or in
addition to John Kasich, that -- you could see him doing that.

And I could see Chris Christie maybe lose his temper a little bit at Donald
Trump if the -- if the right question presents itself.

REID: And Lawrence, can I just say really quickly, John Kasich is the only
other person who is going to be on that stage who`s ever done a TV show.

And I think it`s -- that`s an important point, is that the fundamental of
this debate is a television program. Donald Trump knows how to do that,
he`s been a television performer, but so is John Kasich.

He had a show on Fox News, so, I think that he is underrated a lot of ways,
but he does know TV. So, it will be interesting to see if that sort of --
that memory muscle kicks in for him.

O`DONNELL: And Gene, the challenge for the moderators is going to be --
you know, we have to remember that these debates, most of the time come
down to the candidates versus the moderator.

They have very little interaction with each other. So, we may be
overrating the possibility of, you know, the knockout punch coming from one
candidate to another.

I really want to keep the focus on the moderators and what the challenge
represents to them and what kind of questions they should be targeting at
the different candidates, especially Donald Trump.

ROBINSON: Yes, and the challenge with Trump, I think is to keep him on the
question and to get a detailed or specific policy answer out of him.

On healthcare for example, he will say that Obamacare is awful, it`s
terrible, it`s the worst thing that ever happened, but he also says
everybody has to have healthcare.

There was a point at which he was in favor of something like single pair,
there was a point in which he was in favor of something that sounded
suspiciously like Obamacare.

So, what does he favor now? How does he get to the sort of universal
healthcare that he in theory seems to support without -- but still hates

If you can drill down on that, you might get somewhere.

O`DONNELL: Yes, the properly phrased questions to Donald Trump would get
an awful lot of -- I don`t knows if they get -- if they frame them right

We`re going to take a quick break here, we`re going to be back with more,
when we come back, the crazy things politicians say about government before
they have the responsibility of governing.

You know, like kinds of things presidential candidates are saying now. And
two new police videos have been released in what prosecutors are calling
the murder of Sam DuBose in Cincinnati.

And new information about the plane part that washed up on that small
island and what it means for the Malaysian Airlines crash investigation.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re saying Obamacare --

TRUMP: It`s got to go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s got to go --

TRUMP: Repeal and replace with something terrific.


O`DONNELL: "The Simpsons" writers have accurately predicted the future
dozens of times, like the invention of smart watches for example and there
was this little bit from 15 years ago.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As you know, we`ve inherited quite a budget crunch
from President Trump. How bad is it, Secretary Van Houten(ph)?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The country is broke?! How can that be?


O`DONNELL: It looks like the studio audience liked that one -- sorry, you
guys couldn`t get into Jimmy Fallon.

Yes, that is fretting anybody who recognize this -- it`s of course, that`s
Bernard and Sara Swefnam(ph), of course it is, Bernie`s kids are here

Up next, what Ronald Reagan has taught Republican candidates about wild


O`DONNELL: Today is Medicare`s birthday. It was 50 years ago today that
Lyndon Johnson signed the Medicare bill into law in 1965.

One of the loudest opponents of Medicare was actor Ronald Reagan, who was
then the Donald Trump of his time. A celebrity with no governing
experience and very forceful opinions about government.

Here is Ronald Reagan offering a heart-felt fact-free, totally false
prediction of what would happen to doctors if Medicare became law.


decide that the doctor can have so many patients, they`re equally divided
among the various doctors by the government.

But then the doctors are equally divided geographically. So, a doctor
decides he wants to practice in one town and the government has to say to
him, you can`t live in that town, they already have enough doctors, you
have to go someplace else.

And from here, it`s only a short step to dictating where he will go. This
is a freedom that I wonder whether any of us have the right to take from
any human being.

I know how I`d feel if you, my fellow citizens decided to be an actor, I
had to become a government employee and work in a national theater.


O`DONNELL: No one should think that Sarah Palin or Ronald Reagan
worshipper invented the trick of fantasizing about the contents of
healthcare legislation.

Sarah Palin`s death panels are a direct descendant of Reagan`s false claim
that the government was going to say to a doctor, "you can`t live in that


REAGAN: Once you establish the precedent that the government can determine
a man`s working place and his working methods, determine his employment.

From here, it`s a short step to all the rest of socialism to determining
his pay, and pretty soon, your son won`t decide when he`s in school or
where he will go or what he will do for a living.

He will wait for the government to tell him where he would go to work and
what he would do.


O`DONNELL: Reagan`s fantasies about what Medicare would do to America
makes Sarah Palin`s false attacks on Obamacare seem shy.

There is Reagan telling America that if you allow Medicare to become law,
the government would soon be telling all of us, every one of us where we
can go to school, where we can live, exactly what we can do for a living.

That was Reagan`s promise about what Medicare would do to America.


REAGAN: And behind it will come other federal programs that will invade
every area of freedom as we have known it in this country.

Until one day as Norman Thomas said, we will awake to find that we have
socialism, and if you don`t do this and if I don`t do it, one of these
days, you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children
and our children`s children what it once was like in America when men were


O`DONNELL: Instead, Ronald Reagan spent his sunset years as president of
the United States and never once attempted to repeal Medicare or reduce its
scope in any way.

Reagan got one thing about Medicare right, it was and is socialism. What
Reagan cannot comprehend is that there is good socialism and bad socialism
and Medicare is very good socialism.

And because we are all believers in good socialism now, the Republican
chairman of the house committee with jurisdiction over Medicare, Paul Ryan.

Who has publicly worshipped Ronald Reagan issued a statement about
Medicare`s birthday today that did not say that after 50 oppressive years
of this socialism we should repeal it and repeal Obamacare while we`re at

Instead, the ultra conservative but practical socialist chairman of the
committee said, Medicare is a promise. It`s a commitment to all Americans
that if you work hard, you`ll have the support you need when you retire.

Ronald Reagan, the actor, would have attacked Paul Ryan for saying those
words but Ronald Reagan the president became just as supportive of Medicare
as all the socialists who voted for Medicare and all the socialists who
voted for Ronald Reagan.

We`re back with our panel, and Joy Reid, this is one of those moments,
Medicare`s birthday where it`s time to pause and consider all of the crazy
things candidates say on their way to getting these jobs in government.

REID: Yes, absolutely. And so as a fundamental sort of matter of
conservative dogma, what Ronald Reagan said when he was actor Ronald Reagan
is what, you know, the right professes to believe.

But to your point, once they begin governing, they note the percentage of
seniors who vote and it`s very high. And seniors vote very specifically on
things like Medicare and Social Security.

So that even the tea party who profess to hate government turn around and
say government hands off my Medicare. So that it becomes this third world
of politics.

What`s interesting though, is that you do have some of these politicians
who even now are attempting to kind of make real and make manifest for the
tea party this idea of getting rid of these government programs, rolling
them back, scaling them back.

Getting rid of them from the young. Marco Rubio has trot on that territory
with privatization of Social Security, Paul Ryan as you mention has done it
and Jeb Bush is doing it.

So, it`s interesting to see them do this, despite the fact that these older
voters who are now more conservative than they were back then still love

O`DONNELL: Well, let`s listen to the Jeb Bush example of it. Let`s listen
what he said last week, he had spent a week backtracking from this. Let`s
listen to this.


JEB BUSH, FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: We either make sure we fulfill the
commitment to people that have already received the benefits or receiving
the benefits.

That we need to figure out a way to phase out this program for others and
move to a new system that allows them to have something because they`re not
going to have anything.

And that argument, I think, is going to be a winning argument if we take it
directly to people.


O`DONNELL: Shira Center, Jeb Bush got some push back from that, from
voters in New Hampshire, there is video of him saying, well, I really just
think we need to reach a bipartisan consensus on how to fund this going

He`s kind of backed away from where he was last week on.

CENTER: Yes, the worst one he said that he would "phase out" --

O`DONNELL: Phase out --

CENTER: Yes, that was not really a politically smart way of stating
whatever his position is on Medicare.

I mean, if you think about it, it actually reminds me of what George W.
Bush did right after he won his second term when he tried to privatize
Social Security.

As soon as you use words like privatize and phase out, a whole segment -- a
segment that vote as Joy pointed out, of the population, 65 plus gets very

Even if you say later, oh, well, I didn`t quite mean that or it`s for
people further down the line, it`s not for you. So, I don`t quite
understand why he would use the term like "phase out".

And by the way, I do think it`s also interesting that he`s talking about
Medicare. Because traditionally, Medicare becomes a political punching
bag, especially during the mid-term elections.

Let`s remember that it was the cuts to the -- sorry, the stated cuts --
Republicans talked about cuts to Medicare in the 2010 elections and that`s
how they got the house back.

It was those commercials and older voters showed up in droves and that`s
why Republicans have the house, they control -- you`re districting them,
they`re going to control the house of Representatives for the foreseeable

This because of "cuts to Medicare".

O`DONNELL: And Gene Robinson, when George W. Bush tried his move on Social
Security, it lasted about 30 days before they --


O`DONNELL: Just completely surrendered. Never --


O`DONNELL: Came to a vote in the committee. Republicans on the Hill were
telling them, this is hopeless, just cut it out, forget about it.

ROBINSON: Yes, not going to happen. And in fact, you know, who was it who
authored the greatest expansion of Medicare in a long time?

It was George W. Bush with the expansion to --


ROBINSON: Include prescription drugs, part D. So, this is kind of -- this
is a bipartisan consensus now. And it does make me wonder what there is in
it for Jeb Bush to talk about this at all.

I don`t quite get it. It`s certainly not going to win them a lot of
brownie points with the -- with the older voters that, in fact, have to
show up if any Republican is going to win.

O`DONNELL: Speaking of wild things the candidates say, let`s listen to
what Ted Cruz said about the Iran nuclear deal.


SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: If this deal is consummated, it will make the
Obama administration the world`s leading financier of radical Islamic


O`DONNELL: And Mitt Romney, who in retirement has found his decency,
tweeted that -- he said, "I`m opposed to the Iran deal but Senator Cruz is
way over the line on Obama terrorism charge. Hurts the cause.

Joy Reid, that`s one of those moments where you see -- when like someone is
unburdened with the hope of winning an election actually saying things that
they wouldn`t say in a campaign.

REID: It`s kind of, Lawrence, the Republican circle of life, right? So
Donald Trump is running to assuage his ego and Ted Cruz is running to be
Donald Trump, right?

He just is running for the attention and media adulation and to build a
base among the Republican sort of cohort that watch this talk radio.

So, yes, he knows there`s no consequence for him, Ted Cruz isn`t going
anywhere and he knows it.

O`DONNELL: All right, we`re going to leave presidential politics there,
Joy Reid, please stay with us, Eugene Robinson and Shira Center, thank you
both for joining us tonight.

Up next, two new police videos released in the case against the police
officer charged with the murder of Sam DuBose in Cincinnati.



you understand you have been charged with one count of murder and one count
of voluntary manslaughter?

SAMUEL DUBOSE: Yes, your honor. .


O`DONNELL: That was Officer Ray Tensing, the University of Cincinnati
Police Officer who shot and killed Sam DuBose during a traffic stop. The
family of Sam DuBose sat in the courtroom this morning as Officer Tensing
pleaded not guilty of murder, and the judge set his bail.


JUDE SHANAHAN: The defendant is facing the possibility of life in prison.
It is the court`s duty to ensure his appearance. The bond will be 1
million any way.


JUDGE SHANAHAN: Ladies and gentlemen, this is a courtroom. You will
conduct yourselves at all times appropriately.


O`DONNELL: Today, the prosecutor`s office confirmed that it is
investigating two of the other officers, who were on the scene that day.
Officers Phillip Kidd and David Lindhenschmitd. The University of
Cincinnati placed both officers on administrative leave today and will
conduct its own investigation into what happened.

The prosecutor`s office also released the two officers` body camera videos.
We have slowed down officer Lindhenschmitd`s video, so that you can see
Officer Tensing getting up from the ground.

Officer Phillip Kidd`s body cam does not show Officer Tensing getting up
from the ground, but you do hear Officer Kidd corroborate Officer Tensing`s


TENSING: I think I am OK. He was dragging me.


TENSING: I thought I was going to get run over. I was trying to step
back. He was dragging me man.

PHILLIP: Yes. Are you good?

TENSING: I am good. I just got my hand and my arm caught.

PHILLIP: Yes, I saw that.


O`DONNELL: Joining us, Christopher Cooper, a former Washington, D.C.
Police officer and expert in police conflict resolution and attorney, and
back with us MSNBC`s Joy Reid. Joy Reid, we heard that big cheer go up in
the courtroom today when the bail was announced that $1 million being so

And, again, this seems like one of the emotional reactions to more than
just this case, to having seen other officers in situations like this being
treated much more lightly. So moments like that seem to carry much more

REID: Yes -- No. Absolutely. I think that first of all it is so rare.
It is just as factually just so rare for a police officer to be charged.
Let alone convicted and that has not happened yet for the killing of a
civilian. It is just incredibly exceptionally rare.

Most of time, what you have is even prosecutors, as you saw in Ferguson,
seem to take the side of the officer and take whatever they say at face
value even whe, you know, there are witnesses who are countering the
officer`s claim.

So, I think that there is just a sense that with Baltimore and with this
case and with the case in Brooklyn, there is starting to be a breakthrough
where prosecutors are taking seriously these long-standing charges that
police sometimes do the wrong thing. That you should not just take their
word for it.

O`DONNELL: Let us listen to what Officer Tensing`s lawyer said about this
release of the new video and what he believes this video shows.


STEW MATTHEWS, RAY TENSING`S ATTORNEY: The second body cam shows me that
he in fact was up the street from the initial point of the encounter with
Mr. DuBose and he was laying in the street. The second body cam shows him
getting up off of the street.


O`DONNELL: Christopher Cooper, I was not able to determine that by looking
at this video exactly what the positionings were, but given all the video
that we have seen about this, what is your reading of what the evidence is
at this point?

right. It is hard to tell exactly what is going on in the video, at least
after Mr. DuBose is shot. Certainly, if in fact there is more video, at
some point we may find out that Officer Tensing had a legitimate basis to
discharge his weapon.

We may find out that Officer Tensing had a reasonable belief that he was in
danger, that the public was in danger. That in fact Mr. DuBose may have
used the automobile as a deadly weapon.

Based on the information we have right now, it appears that Officer Tensing
did not need to discharge his firearm and that there certainly was not a
dragging based on what we can see right now.

O`DONNELL: I want to listen to one other thing that Officer Tensing`s
lawyer said about the officer`s state of mind and what will in effect be
his self-defense claim.

COOPER: That is correct.

O`DONNELL: Let us listen to this.


ATTY. MATTHEWS: He was fearful for his own life. He thought he was going
to die. He thought he would be sucked under the car and be run over. So,
he was pulling away from it.


PINSKY: And, Attorney Cooper, what is the significance and how important
in controlling of the verdict outcome is the officer`s state of mind?

COOPER: It is all too important. If an officer states that he or she
feared for his or her life that makes all the difference. Look, the sort
of -- that trial framework is a case known as Tennessee versus Garner.
Now, in Tennessee versus garner, the issue is a suspect fleeing from a

However, Tennessee versus Garner applies in this case, as well because it
gives us the standard by which we decide whether or not an officer acted
properly. If an officer is encountering a person who is about to flee and
it certainly appears at some point that Mr. DuBose wants to leave the
scene. He cranks up the engine.

The officer needs not only to articulate that he feared for his life, but
that he had probable cause to believe that there was in fact a threat to
himself and there was in fact a threat to others. So, Officer Tensing will
likely argue that Mr. DuBose could have not only harmed him, or as well as
over officers, other people with an automobile.

O`DONNELL: And, Joy Reid, the Officer Tensing has been able to make his
bail today. That is normally -- figure is usually 10 percent of what the
announced bail is.

COOPER: That is correct.

O`DONNELL: And, so Joy, he will be released as a result of being able to
do that. This issue of state of mind is also -- there is also the question
the jury is, basically, going to be put through the body cameras into the
officer`s position and they will have to ask themselves, was that a
reasonable response given what that officer was experiencing at the window
of that car?

COOPER: That is correct.

REID: Yes. And, this is where it all comes -- it comes down to jury
selection and it comes down to how vigorously the prosecution argues it.
But, you need only to remember the Rodney King case to recall that video
that seems damming to the public, to sort of a reasonable person watching
it does not always, and really does not often result in the conviction of
police officers.

It really depends on what the jury believes about the officer`s state of
mind, which is a subject argument on the part of his defends. So, I think
this is a story that is just beginning, because we have seen time and time
again going back decades that it is very difficult to convict police
officers in the killing of civilians, very difficult. And, depending on
the jury you pick, sometimes it is impossible.

O`DONNELL: And, the Rodney King case was all about jury selection since
they were acquitted on the state charges with that state jury. A federal
jury convicted them and they got prison time --

REID: Correct.

O`DONNELL: -- with a different -- totally different composition of jury.
Christopher Cooper, Joy Reid, thank you both very much for joining us
tonight. Thank you.

Coming up, the latest on the investigation of that debris found in the
Indian Ocean.


wreckage from MH370, it is an important breakthrough particularly for
families. Now, the families has been involved with long, long, long wait.
For them to have some degree of closure would be a great -- it would be a
great comfort.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now is former NBC News Aviation Correspondent Robert
Hager. Bob, I want to read you something in the "New York Times" article
that is up now from quoting an Australian aircraft engineer has worked on
the 777.

And, he has quoted as saying that the object that was found points to a
powerful impact with the ocean. His quote is, "Looking at the part, just
the photo it suggests the part separated from the aircraft violently.
Looking at the part, it is pretty clear the aircraft did not survive. It
was completely destroyed."

So, if this was a full-impact when it hits the ocean opposed to any kind of
coming apart or exploding in the air what does it mean about the debris
field and the way the debris field would move through the ocean?

that the smaller parts that can float, such as this piece of the wing would
in fact, be able to migrate a long way across the Indian Ocean, all the way
3,000 miles away.

So, it confirms that a piece like this could in fact come from the
aircraft. But, you know, I think we got to dampen expectations here,
because the discovery of this wing part does not really tell you that much
about -- I mean a big question in this crash is what caused it.

Was it a pilot with criminal intent? Suicide and murder as it were like
German Wings, or was it some mechanical problem that we do not understand?
So, A wing part is not going to tell you that, or conjecture about whether
it hit the water hard or came in for smooth landing. Sheds no light on

You got to have the recorders, the cockpit voice recorder, and the flight
data recorder and they are probably 3,000 miles away back where this wing
piece began to float away from the initial wreckage. It would have gone
right to the bottom. And, man, finding that is a real, real task.

O`DONNELL: So, there remains a very strong possibility, I guess we could
call it, that the -- those data recorders might never be found.

HAGER: Oh, I think that is a yes. I mean imagine they have been searching
for 17 months now. Seem no closer than they seemed in the beginning when
the search began. So, yes, sadly that indeed could be the case.

O`DONNELL: Robert Hager, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I
really appreciate it.

HAGER: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, a turn to the lighter side. A much-needed turn as
another summer movie weekend approaches.


O`DONNELL: The admitted killer of the Lion Cecil, Dr. Walter Palmer, the
most hunted hunter in the world sent a message to his dental patients two
days ago saying, "I have not been contacted by authorities in Zimbabwe or
in the U.S. about this situation but will assist them in any inquiries they
may have."

But, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, which is conducting the
investigation said today, quote, "At this point in time, however, multiple
efforts to contact Dr. Walter Palmer have been unsuccessful. We ask that
Dr. Palmer or his representatives to contact us immediately."

Also, today Safari Club International said that they have suspended Walter
Palmer`s membership pending the outcome of the investigation. Americans
who trophy hunt account for the majority of lions killed for sport in

A 2011 report by the international fund for animal welfare found that
between 1999 and 2008, Americans bringing home lion trophies accounted for
64 percent of all African lions killed for sport during that period. We
will be right back.


O`DONNELL: Last week, I interviewed producer-director, Judd Apatow and
discussed his new hit movie "Trainwreck" written by Amy Schumer and
starring Amy Schumer. We will show you that interview next. So, do not be
shocked by a leap back in time to last week`s wardrobe.


BRIE LARSON, IN THE FILM "TRAINWRECK": Just breath. Just breath.

AMY SCHUMER AS AMY IN THE FILM "TRAINWRECK": It was a kiss like right now.

LARSON: People talk about that.

SCHUMER: It is not really.

LARSON: It is fine.

SCHUMER: I do not know anyone that knows about that.

LARSON: He is great. It is normal. I think he is great. I really like

SCHUMER: Can you tell the members of heaven`s gate in there to relax. No.
He is too nice.

LARSON: He is not too nice.

SCHUMER: Yes he is. He is too nice and you know it.

LARSON: No. No, he is the perfect amount of nice that you deserved.

SCHUMER: Yeah, but you know there is deal breakers across the board with
him, like the sex is good. It is like really good. It is great but it is
not like the best I have ever had. You know?

LARSON: You are right you do not want the best sex you have ever had guy.

SCHUMER: No, you want to stay with the best you have ever had guy.

LARSON: No, you do not. That is a creepy guy. You do not want to be that
guy. The best sex you ever had guy is in jail. You know what I mean?

SCHUMER: Yeah, but I have been thinking about maybe reaching out to him.




O`DONNELL: That is a scene from "Trainwreck" written by Amy Schumer and
directed by my next guest Judd Apatow, whose new book is entitled, "Sick In
The Head Conversations About Life And Comedy." Judd, I contributed to your
opening weekend gross. I was there on Friday. I loved the movie. How did
this collaboration come about you and Amy Schumer?

JUDD APATOW, DIRECTOR OF "TRAINWRECK" FILM: You know, I was just listening
to the radio and I heard her being interviewed by Howard Stern. And, it
was a very long interview where she is talking about --

O`DONNELL: How long ago was that?

APATOW: It is three years ago, maybe a little more.

O`DONNELL: But, before the giant Amy Schumer bubble, long before.

APATOW: Sure. She was just, you know, a young comedian who had been on
some of the roasts. I did not even know her act that well. She was so
interesting talking about her life. And, her dad has MS and she was
telling, you know, some pretty dark stories about what it is like taking
care of him, but she was also hilarious doing it.


APATOW: And, I thought, wow, this is a real storyteller.

O`DONNELL: And, I have read somewhere that Amy wrote a script -- a movie
script, you looked at it.


O`DONNELL: And said -- I do not want to use the word rejected.


O`DONNELL: But you went back to work and came up with something completely

APATOW: Well, she wrote a movie that had a higher -- you know, it was a
bigger concept --


APATOW: A sillier concept and I just thought, I kind of want to hear those
stories I heard on the radio, and that is a good movie maybe she will do
down the line, but we had a long conversation. And, I just said, you know,
what is going on in your life, let us write about that.

O`DONNELL: And, in your book you told the story about how the idea for
"Knocked Up" came about. It is the same story.

APATOW: It is similar. I was talking to Seth Rogen and he was pitching me
all these science fiction movies, and really broad Ghost Busters type
movies. And I said, Seth, you do not really need all that to be funny.
You know, you are funny just standing there in the stock room in the "40-
Year-Old Virgin. You could just like get a girl pregnant and that would be
enough for a whole movie" and then we went with it, that kind of makes


O`DONNELL: Yes. And, we see in the book that in your relationship with
Garry Shandling, you write about this a lot. Two interviews with Gary
Shandling over long gaps in time. And, in the second one you are talking
with Gary about how you find the essence of a story. And, what the essence
of comedy and storytelling really is.


O`DONNELL: And, it keeps coming down to the simpler the better. You do
not need the fireworks.

APATOW: That is true. And, you know, there are great comedies with
fireworks, like "Ghost Busters" and I love those movies, you know, for
myself. I feel like life is complicated enough as it is. You know, I have
enough trouble just getting through the day. So, I never need someone to
try to murder somebody or anything big.

And, Gary was talking about just getting to the core, people getting to the
truth. And, at the Larry Sanders Show, he said that it was about, people
who love each other, but show business gets in the way. And, in a way, you
can say that about all stories that people who love each other and what
gets in the way.

O`DONNELL: Yes. The book is -- I think the -- it islongest book in
gestation. It took 32 years to write this book.

APATOW: Yes. Exactly.

O`DONNELL: You started at 15.


O`DONNELL: And, these are interviews that you started to do with
professional comedians when you were in high school for your high school
radio station. How did you get these big pros on the phone when you were
15 years old?

APATOW: Well, pre-internet and pre-pod casting and pre-500 channeling
universities, nobody cared about these people. I mean a lot of them were
just starting out. Gary Shandling was the young comedian.


APATOW: This is 1983, 1984 and Jerry Seinfeld was just starting out. Jay
Leno was just beginning to make a name for himself. So, when I called
their management or publicist, no one else was calling. So, I said I was
from a radio station in New York --

O`DONNELL: A radio station in New York. You did not mention high school.

APATOW: I did not mention that I had no hair under my arms.


O`DONNELL: They heard of New York and that was good enough.

APATOW: Exactly.

O`DONNELL: And, this is the life and comedy of Sarah Silverman, Amy
Poehler, Chris Rock. It is everybody you can think of. And, as you read
it, as you read these conversations it is a different life for women.

APATOW: It is a different life, I think especially being on the road.


APATOW: Being on the road is awful for all comedians, and I am sure it is
less fun for women. I think now there are lot more opportunities for women
with people like Tina Fey and Amy Poehler, whose not in the book but should
be in the soft cover edition.

And, Amy Schumer bring back in the day, I think it probably was harder for
women to write and direct movies, and even now it is still way too
difficult. And, we need way more projects that are driven by women.

O`DONNELL: Is that a mission of yours, you are working with Lena Dunn and
Amy Schumer. Is opening up opportunity for women, one of your missions?

APATOW: I do not usually think of it in those terms.

O`DONNELL: You are not conscious of it.

APATOW: I mean a tiny bit, but I mainly think who is funny and who has a
lot of ideas and there is a lot of hilarious women. And people need to
give them an opportunity, so I am happy to collaborate with them because
they are brilliant.

O`DONNELL: You are a mentor in many ways, Garry Shandling says to you in
the book, whenever I mentor I notice I am learning something about myself.

APATOW: That is very wise. I actually -- Sometimes I do not feel I am
mentoring them because -- I feel lucky that I get to work with Lena Dunham.
She is so courageous in her work. She has so much to say and I get, you
know, as much or more out of it.

O`DONNELL: How would you describe your role on girls as an executive
producer and collaborator?

APATOW: You know, I am mainly involved at this stage, helping them break
stories and reading the drafts and being a great outside eye of house
tracking -- and you know what is happening with this people, because they
are working so hard on it.


APATOW: And, I try to be the person who can see it from a distance who is
not as tired as them, who can say, "Oh, yeah, this is making sense" or
"Hey! You thought of a good idea three months ago that you forgot about
it. I will remind you of this other idea."

O`DONNELL: Right. Right. We are going to have to wrap it here. Could
you stay, and we will talk a little bit more and put it on the web.


O`DONNELL: A few extra words from Judd Apatow.

APATOW: I love the world wide web.

O`DONNELL: Correct. Well, that is the rest of this is going to go on the
very Last Word. Chris Hayes is up next.


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