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All In With Chris Hayes, Friday, July 31st, 2015

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Date: July 31, 2015
Guest: Lynn Sweet, Danny Gold, Mark O`Mara, Jim Manley, Donna Edwards


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --


HAYES: The officer charged with shooting and killing Samuel DuBose asks
for his job back.

Mark O`Mara, the attorney for the DuBose family, joins me live to respond.

Then, how race and criminal justice are taking center stage in the
presidential race.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Real race has to also include
restorative justice.

HAYES: Plus, new Hitler comparisons on the Iran deal.

REP. ROBERT PITTENGER (R), NORTH CAROLINA: The consequences of this deal
makes Hitler look a minor player.

HAYES: As Congress heads home for the summer, will the Iran deal become
the new Obamacare?

And with the first Republican debate of the 2016 rapidly approaching, a
preview of what might be to come.


just fine.

RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let`s see, the third one, I can`t.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.

PERRY: Oops.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Tonight, the former university police officer charged with the murder of
Samuel DuBose is asking for his job back. Ray Tensing, who can be seen on
body cam video fatally shooting DuBose after traffic stop was fired by the
University of Cincinnati shortly after being indicted for murder on
Wednesday. His union has now filed paperwork calling for Officer Tensing
who pled not guilty to be reinstated to his position immediately. The
grievance report filed by the Fraternal Order of Police charges the former
officer was terminated without just cause and was denied his due process
rights as prescribed by his contract.

The union is calling for the University of Cincinnati to also make sure
that Tensing is to be made whole for all back pay and benefits, including
but not limited to sick time, vacation time, holidays. The university said
it stands by it decision to terminate Tensing. Meanwhile, a grand jury
declined to charge the other two university police officers who arrived at
the scene.

In body cam video, Officers Kidd and Lindensmith can be seen appearing to
corroborate Tensing`s false statement that he was dragged by the DuBose`s
car. That appearance led to calls by the DuBose family lawyer and others
for charges against the other officers.


MARK O`MARA, DUBOSE FAMILY ATTORNEY: One bad cop, you indict the cop.
That`s now happened. Two bad cops, you may have to indict the department.
Even if you stopped the murder, if you don`t stop cops who are willing to
cover up, you will not address the problem ever.


HAYES: Today, Hamilton County prosecuting attorney Joe Deters applauded
the grand jury`s decision not to charge the officers, saying, "When the
officers were specifically asked about what they saw or heard, their
statements matched Tensing`s body camera video." The university has said
the two officers will remain on paid administrative leave until the
conclusion of the internal investigation.

Joining me now, Mark O`Mara, the attorney for the family of Sam DuBose.

Mr. O`Mara, first I`d like to get your reaction to the grievance filing
from Officer Tensing, saying that his due process rights were violated on
the collective bargaining agreement, and he should not be fired despite the
fact he was just indicted for murder.

O`MARA: Well, I`m presuming that that is some legal technicality, some
appellate right he has to preserve in order to maintain collective
bargaining right. If that`s the only reason why, OK. But I`ve got to tell
you, some unsolicited advice to former Officer Tensing -- if he continues
with this absolute lack of responsibility, lack of acknowledgment of what
he did, he needs to be very, very careful. The criminal justice system
looks at acceptance of responsibility as being a significant element in
things like sentencing. Remorse is also very important, and this step is a
step in the wrong direction.

HAYES: What is the family`s reaction as well to the failure to charge the
two other officers? You were pretty vocal about that. It appeared at
least from the scan that I did of both the incident reports files and the
video that at least one of the officers said he -- essentially said he saw
things to corroborate the account of tensing and it`s not clear that he
could have possibly seen that given that Tensing, it appears in the
videotape was not dragged. What`s your reaction to the failure to indict?

O`MARA: Well, first of all, I truly trust the grand jury`s system not just
because they indicted Tensing, but because I know the grand juries do a
good job and they have a lot more information than we yet have.

Having said that, I listened to the tape dozens of times and there`s no
question that at first blush, one, basically two of the officers seem to
corroborate or at least offer some support for the statements. You hear
Tensing, one of his dozen times that he says he was dragged, one of the
officers says, yes, I saw that.

Now, was that some just benefit brother to brother for the moment? Maybe

My real concern and what I addressed yesterday and what the quote that you
just mentioned, my real concern is that we have a horrible lack of trust
with law enforcement these days because of what`s happened over the past
three years or so. It`s been going on for decades. And even if we indict
one officer, but we see evidence that other officers are willing to fudge
the truth or more, then we`re never going to regain the trust that police
officers need.

I believe that the grand jury listened to more evidence and that I trust
their decision to not indict, but I do hope that officers look at this and
look at that tape and say we need to stay very far away from that type of
corroboration of an obvious lie.

HAYES: You know, you talked about some of the things we`ve seen over the
last three years with respect to police shootings. I want to ask you a
personal question.

A lot of people are going to recognize you on this television set right now
as the former lawyer for George Zimmerman, a case that in many respects
felt like the beginning of the kind of social movement we`ve grown up
around that has grown up around black lives matter. Obviously, Mr.
Zimmerman is not a police officer. So, there is a difference there. You
are now the family attorney for the DuBose family.

Explain that trajectory to me other than the fact that you`re a lawyer and
you take different clients.

O`MARA: Sure, 33 years of practicing criminal defense. I represent people
who are charged with a crime, and because I do that, you can look at my
pedigree, if you will, and note that represent just like every other co-
defense lawyer, a disproportionate share of young black men in the system,
because they are put into the system much more often.

Now, the day before I represented George Zimmerman, if someone looked at
that, they would probably applaud the work that I`ve done generally and
consequently on behalf of young black males.

But there`s no question, I understand that I have been and forever more
probably will be tied as the lawyer who represented the guy who shot
Trayvon. All I can say is that in that case, I did my best for a client
who I represented, and in this case and other cases in between, I`ve done
the same.

I represent a young black guy, passed away now, 21 years old, tased to
death in Savannah County jail, and the family came to me of the work I did
on Zimmerman. I represent a guy, a black male in DeLand, Sean Grant, shot
five times by a police officer for stealing a sandwich.

I know and the family knew that I carried that baggage with me, and I`ve
obviously gotten some tweets and response in social media questioning why
they would come to me.

All I can say is I`m going to do my very best and that same ethic I brought
to the Zimmerman defense, I`m going to bring to Sam and his family.

HAYES: Did the Mark O`Mara understand at the moment that that case was
happening that it represented some kind of starting point for something
bigger socially? I mean, are you surprised by where we are now at this

O`MARA: Absolutely surprised when I first got the call and said yes and
walked outside to 75 reporters staring at me, I knew something was up, but
even that, something that`s passing. We see that on other cases that go
book into the quietness of the darkness. I really had no idea that the
Zimmerman event, the Trayvon Martin shooting was going to turn into what it
turned into.

But I`ll tell you, having been frustrated by the way the system treats
certain segments of the population, I`m enthused that beginning with
Zimmerman and following through the Michael Dunn case, the Jordan Davis
case, the Baltimore case, the Eric Gardner case, you better than I, dozens
and dozens of them, I do think Zimmerman brought it to the forefront and
that those embers got started and the fire has begun and it`s not going

Now, we`re looking at cops the way we should. I respect cops. I would
never want to do their job. But if they`re going to do their job, they
have to do it professionally. We -- they are there to protect us from each

So, yes, I certainly believe that Zimmerman started it, and now, along the
way, every month or two we have another impetus pushing us forward. But
truly hopeful it`s going in the right direction and maybe the fact that it
only took ten days to indict Tensing should take ten minutes, but maybe the
fact that we did it so quickly with Tensing is, in fact, some evidence that
we`re moving in the right direction.

HAYES: Final question, if you had to do it all over again, would you take
the Zimmerman case?

O`MARA: Yes. Absolutely. I can`t not. It`s what I do and quite
honestly, you can`t deny it`s given me the opportunity to try other cases
like the DuBose case and to speak out loud about race in the criminal
justice that I`ve been doing for three years. So, there have been personal
benefits as well that I can`t deny.

HAYES: Mark O`Mara, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

O`MARA: Sure, Chris. Thank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, another looming battle in President Obama`s legacy.
I`ll tell you why August is going to get very, very hot.

Plus, how 2016 candidates are responding to what`s become the biggest issue
this election -- race and criminal justice in America, and later, it`s
still uncertain who will make the debate stage but Donald Trump says he
intends to be, quote, "very nice".

We`ll have some predictions and more, ahead.



LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS: Did you ever foresee a scenario to where you would
be number two to Donald Trump in the first debate?

BUSH: Well, I didn`t -- I didn`t know where I would be, for sure.


BUSH: Well, I don`t know. This is a long haul. So, my focus is on what
the world looks like in January going into the February caucuses and

I was surprised that Donald Trump has surged. I think he captured the deep
frustration that people feel. I mean, I get that. I get the lack of rule
of law, the sanctuary cities, the open borders. All those things he`s, in
a very graphic way, appealed to people`s anger about those things and I
think that it`s important to be respectful of that. Make the case that we
can fix these things.

And over time, the Trump phenomenon will either succeed or fail based on
his proposals.


HAYES: As Jeb Bush prepares for the first debate next week, Donald Trump
appears to take center stage based on a standing national polls. Can
anything stop the debate from devolving into absolute farce? We`ll tackle
that, ahead.


HAYES: We`re heading into the dog days of summer when members of Congress
go home for the August recess to face their constituents and major policy
measures go home to die.

That was famously the case in August 2009, well, not completely died, but
almost died, when fears about health care reform were whipped in a frenzy
at lawmaker`s town hall meetings, almost derailing the Affordable Care Act

This year, a similar legacy defining initiative hangs in the balance.
President Obama`s nuclear deal with Iran, which Congress will vote on when
it returns to Washington in September, that`s even August yet, and already,
the rhetoric is reaching new levels of hyperbole and hysteria.

First, a presidential candidate equated President Obama to Adolf Hitler,
quote, "marching the Israelis to the door of the oven."

Now, a sitting member of Congress is going even further.


REP. ROBERT PITTENGER (R), NORTH CAROLINA: They view an Iran that would
change its stripes, but in reality, Iran is not going to change its
stripes. Hitler did not change his stripes. Chamberlain was under some
illusion that Hitler would be different in Munich and he wasn`t. And we
paid a grave price for that calculation early on and then we addressed it.

The consequences of this deal make the -- make Hitler look like a minor
player in the context of the world -- the challenge to the rest of the


HAYES: Both sides of the Iran debate are now gearing up for a major battle
on lawmaker`s home turf. Political reports that opponents are explicitly
stealing tactics from that Obamacare fight. With one group, the Republican
Jewish Coalition, actually distributing a town hall schedules of lawmakers
to its 40,000 members. Advocacy groups like the American-Israel Public
Affairs Committee, AIPAC, are planning to spend upwards of $20 million on a
campaign against the deal. A senior official of one such group tells "The
Washington Times", quote, "This is Obamacare level anger."

On the other side, the White House and its allies are preparing to put up
the fight of their lives. This week, President Obama made a personal pitch
to Democratic lawmakers before they head home. And last night, he hosted a
conference call with members of Organizing for Action, Move On and other
grassroots groups, campaigning for the deal, reportedly telling them, "The
facts are on our side, but the politics are going to be tough if all of you
don`t get involved and get active."

Joining me now, Jim Manley, a former spokesman for Senate Minority Leader
Harry Reid, and basically the one person in Washington I want to talk to
about how this games out.

Before I get your advice to lawmakers on how to survive this, let`s just
take a little time machine back to that summer of 2009. Take a listen to
what was going on in those town halls.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You all have the most to gain in this effort because
right now --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cost of medical care has risen primarily because of
the government.


CROWD: Just say no! Just say no! Just say no!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Obama health care plan which you support, this man
would be given no care whatsoever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It reads like something that was brought up in the
early 1930s in Germany --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question to you is why you continue to support the
policy as Obama has.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One day God`s going to stand before you and he`s going
to judge you, and the rest of your cronies up on the Hill.


HAYES: All right. Jim, are you screaming yet?


HAYES: If you`re screaming that, are you going to scream that? If you`re
the quarterback and you have the Senate Democratic caucus in the huddle, or
you got the White House strategy team, Senate liaison team, how are you
gaming this out?

MANLEY: Expecting a tough August as you just suggested. I`m not quite
sure it`s going to be quite as bad as that legendary summer of `09, but
it`s going to be pretty bad. No doubt about it.

So, you`ve got to do a couple of different things. You got to arm the
members with information going back to their districts. You`ve got to give
them the talking points. You`ve got to give them the briefings, and more
importantly, and as has been suggested in the press, you got to keep up the
dialogue during August.

So, I`ve heard suggestions that the White House is going to do conference
calls with members during the month to try to reassure them and to provide
answers to some of the questions they`re going to be dealing with but
there`s no doubt about it. The energy, the enthusiasm and the anger, I
guess, if you will, is on -- is with the opponents of this deal. So, it`s
going to be tough sledding, but, again, I`m not sure anything is going to
approach `09. So --

HAYES: Well, there is that analogy, right, in which the sort of the
intensity, the fervency was on the side those who are opposed to it, in
that case, Obamacare, in this case, the Iran deal. It does seem to me that
they`re trying to apply the lessons of `09 this time around, in so far as
hosting this conference call. Move On is organizing. There is money
flowing in from a few outside groups J Street and others who are going to
try to essentially meet their opponents at these town halls so that both
sides are represented.

MANLEY: Yes. That`s true. But there`s a little problem there. I mean, J
Street, they`re not going to have nearly the amount of resources that the
pro-Obamacare groups had in `09. Again, it proved ineffective against the
town halls, but, you know, if you`re asking me that question, it`s going to
be a heck of a lot more different.

We had very organized groups on the left trying to push this thing and
that`s not happening this time. You know, the president is going to have
to do one heck of a job of selling this thing and I`m confident he`ll be
able to pull it off.

HAYES: Yes, what is your -- the last time you were on the program, we were
talking about in some sense is a similar situation, although the substance
is very different and particularly my feelings about it. TPP, which has
just faced a defeat in the House, the day it was defeated in the house, you
came on and said they`re going to figure it out. The president is active.
They`re going to get this. That proved to be prescient.

What do you, you know, consult your crystal ball, as a guy who spent a lot
of time dealing with this kind of thing?

MANLEY: Yes, I did a little reporting to get ready for the show, and based
on what I`ve seen so far, you know, I am absolutely confident that once
again to the veto override, and, by the way, the House is going to go first
for procedural reasons. I`m confident the president is going to be able to
hold the caucus and he`s going to have the votes to sustain the override.

First of all --

HAYES: Wait a second, that`s key though because I just want to walk you
through the procedure who are not familiar, right? You`re not saying that
they`re going to win this vote the first time around. You`re saying
they`re going to lose the vote in the House and the Senate, and it`s going
to go to the president and he`s going to veto it and their game plan is to
win the override vote.

MANLEY: That`s correct. It turns out this deal is a revenue measure
because the sanctions cost money, so McConnell, or excuse me, Boehner sent
over a revenue measure this week that McConnell is going to use to slip in
the trade deal and then sent it back to the president -- I mean, send it to
the House and then the House is going to vote to the president where it`s
veto. And because it`s an HR number, the House is going to go first and
based on what I know so far, I am confident that the president is going to
have the votes to sustain it in the House. It`s never going to get to the
Senate --

HAYES: Wow, fascinating.

MANLEY: -- for the veto override.

HAYES: That is fascinating.

OK. Well, Jim Manley, thank you very much.

MANLEY: Thank you.

HAYES: Up next, as the debate on race and criminal justice reform is
taking center stage at the 2016 campaign, which candidates are joining the
conversation? Next.


HAYES: A year ago, you would have been hard pressed to find a single
beltway observer who is predicting that race criminal justice would be at
the forefront of the 2016 presidential campaign.

Today, five presidential candidates to look to make their case at the
National Urban League Annual Conference in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And
while each one of them used the opportunity to signal to the African-
American community that they`re an enormously important constituency,
Democratic presidential hopeful Martin O`Malley used the opportunity to
debut a comprehensive criminal justice reform policy.


every police department to report all custodial deaths, all incidents
involving use of lethal force, and all complaints involving discourtesy and
excessive force.


HAYES: In addition to insuring transparency in law enforcement, O`Malley`s
proposal would also work to provide pathways to full restoration of rights
and benefits to Americans with a criminal record, work to get rid of for-
profit prisons and reform mandatory minimum sentencing.

Jeb Bush who along with Ben Carson were the only Republican candidate to
speak, acknowledged that President Obama was correct in what he said on
racial injustice after last month`s shooting in Charleston, South Carolina.


BUSH: When President Obama says that, quote, "for too long we`ve been
blind to the way past injustices continue to shape the present," he`s
speaking the truth.


HAYES: But it`s not just on the campaign trail that we`re seeing the
effect of this political shift in the grassroots activism that has been
driving it. We`re seeing it in actual policy.

In a prison in Maryland today, the Obama administration officially
announced it will conduct a pilot program that would restore Pell grants, a
source of federal aide for low income college students, to some federal and
state prisoners that would allow them to take college classes behind bars.

Joining me now is one of the champions of that policy, Congresswoman Donna
Edwards, who represents Maryland`s fourth congressional district.

Congresswoman, you`ve been working on this a while. Why is this good

REP. DONNA EDWARDS (D), MARYLAND: I have. This is absolutely good policy.
And it`s a great day because what we know is that education for persons who
are incarcerated and for all of our communities is the great bridge
builder. It`s the game changer and today, the administration announced a
policy that would create a pilot program. I have legislation that I`ve
introduced that would restore Pell grant eligibility for the incarcerated
population, the prohibition that was put in place in 1994 Crime Act, and
we`ve got to get rid of prohibition.

HAYES: In some way, that`s a perfect segue to the politics of this issue
and have a move. I mean, 1994, this was the kind of thing that politicians
of both political parties would buy into and -- because if you didn`t,
someone would come along and say, wait a second, you`re going to take
offenders, people that broke the law that may have done something violent
and give them taxpayer subsidies, so they can attend college classes in
jail? Why is that political attack no longer as stinging as it might have
been 20 years ago?

EDWARDS: Well, it was thought to be a tough on crime measure, and it turns
out that, in fact, when you educate the incarcerated population, people get
an education and gain college credits and get skills, they feel better
about themselves, they come out into the community because they do return
to our communities, and they become productive citizens.

We`ve seen studies that show that the rate of re-incarceration is reduced
by as much as 43 percent for those who are able to get an education, and
so, I think that this is a no-brainer. It`s a low hanging fruit when it
comes to criminal justice reform and I`m going to urge all my colleagues to
get onboard. And I think when we do this, it turns out we`ll save a lot of
money. The program that we visited today in Jessup, Maryland that`s run by
Goucher College costs about $5,000 per person, and, yet, we`re spending
$38,000 to incarcerate them. And so imagine if you can both bring down
incarceration rates, spend what is the equivalent of a Pell Grant, $5,000,
and that is going to save us an awful lot of money in the long run and it`s
going to reduce our incarceration.

HAYES: There has been a lot of reporting on a lot of hype about,
bipartisan consensus forming on the need for criminal justice reform, that
things got out of hand, that we incarcerate too many people, that sentences
are too long. Is this a place where you`re expecting bipartisan support,
or is this a place where you`re expecting to be attacked by Republicans for
essentially coddling criminals?

EDWARDS: Well, I think there`s a narrative out there about the need for
criminal justice reform and for dealing with the mass incarceration rates.
Now we need to turn that narrative into action. And what my bill does --
it`s called the REAL Act, Restoring Education and Learning Act. And what
it does is it will put us
on a pathway to doing just that, putting meat on the bones of those who
believe that we need to do something about the criminal justice system.

And as I said, this is low-hanging fruit. And so I`m encouraging our
Republican colleagues to join with 43 of us as Democrats who have launched
this effort to build on the platform that the administration announced

HAYES: What is your reaction to watching these presidential candidates
come before the urban league and in the case of the Democratic candidates,
saying the phrase Black Lives Matter, talking about racial justice. How
much of this is a product of the kind of activism that we`ve seen really
grown up over the last year since Ferguson?

EDWARDS: Well, I think that many of us are getting the message of the
activists who are on the ground, but you know what, we can`t allow some
people to turn this into rhetoric without meaning, and so I know when I

HAYES: Is that directed at anyone in particular?

EDWARDS: Well, it isn`t. I`m just throwing the warning out there because
I think the activists who are part of Black Lives Matter are not going to
let us get away with taking that movement and turning it into rhetoric. We
have to perform. There has to be action, and as I say, there`s got to be
meat on the bone to criminal justice reform.

HAYES: All right. Congresswoman Donna Edwards, always a pleasure. Thank
you very much.

EDWARDS: Thank you.

HAYES: Ahead, a horrifying attack on the West Bank claims the life of an
18-month hold Palestinian child. And we`ll talk about the phenomenon of
price tag violence ahead.


HAYES: Outrage and widespread condemnation today in the wake of a gruesome
attack on the West Bank by suspected Jewish terrorists. In the West Bank,
Palestinian town of Douma, attackers fire bombed a home. Hebrew graffiti
nearby, including the word revenge and the Star of David.

An 18 month old boy, Ali Dalabshah (ph), was burned and killed. Others in
his family, including his mother and 4-year-old brother were also burned
and critically injured. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu visited
the family in the hospital and had this to say.


outraged. We condemn this. There`s zero tolerance for terrorism wherever
it comes from, whatever side of the fence it comes from, we have to fight
it and fight it together.

I spoke to President Abu Mazen right before I entered the hospital and told
him of this visit, and how Israel`s absolute commitment to fight this evil,
to find the perpetrators and bring them to justice.


HAYES: The Palestinian president who Netanyahu referenced, Mahmoud Abbas,
called the attack a war crime, and is calling for an investigation by the
International Criminal Court. And the chief Palestinian negotiator made it
clear that from their perspective, this terrorist act cannot be separated
from a government that essentially foments it.


took place reflects the culture of hate and incitement that exists, and
nursed by the Israeli government. We hold the government of Israel fully
responsible for this new crime of the occupation.


HAYES: Hundreds of mourners buried the 18-month old boy today as
protesters clashed with Israeli forces in Jerusalem and Hamas called for a
day of rage.

Joining me now, VICE news correspondent Danny Gold who did some amazing
reporting from Gaza last year and from the settlements, which is why I
wanted to have you on.

This -- we don`t know the perpetrators of this yet but the IDF seems clear
that this was Jewish extremist settlers.

You did an incredible bit of reporting about what`s called price tag
attacks that happen in the occupied West Bank where you have Palestinian
villages which are adjacent to Israeli Jewish settlements.

What are those. What are price tag attacks?

DANNY GOLD, VICE NEWS: Basically they`re the rationalization that these
extremist settlers use for these acts of vandalism, terrorism as we`ve
seen, and violence against Arabs. What they say is that that`s the price
for anyone who tries to stand in their way of occupying more land and of
building the Jewish state where the West Bank now lives.

HAYES: I mean, you interviewed a woman who had actually just returned from
prison where she had gone to serve a sentence for an attack such as this
where they will just target -- again, these are civilians, right, and they
will say we are explicitly randomly targeting you because you are in this
land and want to live in it. And the price you will pay for being here is
we will vandalize you, we will attack you, we will maybe cut down your
trees or we might firebomb your house.

GOLD: I mean, they claim it`s revenge for Arab attacks on them. But in
reality, you know, they think they have a mandate from god to take over
this land, to own this land. And they`re willing to do whatever it takes.

You know, it`s -- these fringe elements, they are religious extremists.
And they think that they -- you know, everything that they`re doing is OK.

Even if it`s random old woman, if it`s children, it doesn`t matter to them.

HAYES: Yeah, the woman that you spoke to, one of the things that was so
of bracing about this was she was remarkably honest about her motives. I
mean, she was like -- she was basically like it`s zero sum. There`s only
so much land. We want it all. We will do what it takes to get it.

GOLD: No, I asked her. I specifically asked her. I mean, even if this
violates human rights. And she was like the only human rights I believe in
are the word of god, those were her exact -- her exact rationalization for
what she`s done. She doesn`t care about the law. She doesn`t care about
the laws of Israel. She doesn`t care about the laws of the international
community, all she cares about is the fact that this land has been given to
her by god.

HAYES: And when she came back from jail she was greeted essentially as a
hero. I mean, her community saw what she did as brave, as noble.

GOLD: She actually chose to go to jail. She was sentenced to community
service. So, you can see there is a lot of complaints that the Israeli
government has not been prosecuting these cases hard enough. So, she chose
to go to jail. She refused to do community service, because she believed
in what she did so strongly.

And when she came home among the radical settlement that she lives in, she
was greeted as a hero.

HAYES: In fact, human rights organizations like Betsamsalam (ph) and
Palestinian organizations have lodged a complaint a ton that price tag
attacks go on completely unpunished, that there`s very little
accountability, particularly things that aren`t -- that are vandalism or
cutting down of trees, this is a consistent complaint from Israeli human
rights groups.

GOLD: I mean, the murder is a rare thing. Usually it is cutting down
trees, vandalizing houses. There have been I think nine houses burned down
in the last few years, but when those things are sort of given -- when
people are allowed to do those with immunity, or when they`re not really
prosecuted fully or not targeted, and not arrested, it`s going to escalate,
of course.

HAYES: Yeah, and of course, you were reporting in Gaza during the Gaza war
last year -- was it last year or two years ago?

GOLD: Last year.

HAYES: Last year, that started -- I mean, nothing ever starts in this
conflict at one moment, but the sort of precipitating incident was this
horrific murder of three Yasheba (ph) students who were in the West Bank.
There was a reprisal murder of a Palestinian boy who was burned alive in
Jerusalem and a war
between Israel and Hamas.

In that case, Benjamin Netanyahu, as soon as the murder of the Yashiba (ph)
students happened said I pin this on Hamas whether they did it
operationally or not. This is their -- they created the condition for
this. You see now Saeb Erekat, the Palestinian negotiator, essentially
saying we put this on the government that is very connected to the settler

Talk about the connection between this government and the settler movement.

GOLD: I mean, there are far right wing members of the government that are
like that, that are very strongly believe in the settler movement. And
Netanyahu, himself, has given his blessing for more settlements, and they
haven`t removed the ones that are there.

And there is a lot of complaints that they just don`t do anything to curb
additional settlements and violence perpetrated by settlers.

HAYES: Having been there last summer, having seen what happened to Gaza,
are you worried that we are headed on the path toward something else like
that again?

GOLD: You know, I actually was in Gaza in January as well during the
reconstruction and everyone there and everyone in Israel believes that it`s
only a
matter of time before this happens again.

These sort of incidents have the tendency to spiral out of control. Hamas
calls for a day of rage. The Israelis retaliate, someone else retaliates
against them, and it just builds and builds and builds.

I think things were relatively speaking, calm today. I do believe there
was a young Palestinian that was killed by Israeli defense forces, maybe
more than one I`m not sure.

HAYES: I saw reports of a 17-year-old.

GOLD: Yeah, that`s the one I was referring to. I don`t know. I mean, you
never know what`s happening there, how fast things could really get out of

HAYES: We should also say that one of the great shames of the world right
now is the state of Gaza, which is essentially was reduced to rubble and
has remained rubble and there`s very little left to destroy there as I`m
sure you saw firsthand in January.

GOLD: Yeah. I mean, there`s -- life there right now is extremely
desperate, especially with the closing of the tunnels to Egypt. There`s
just nothing really getting in, and I don`t think that place could handle
another war.

HAYES: Desperation is not the recipe for sustainable piece.

Danny Gold, thank you very much.

GOLD: Thanks for having me.

HAYES: We`ll be right back.


HAYES: Democratic New Jersey Senator Bob Menendez, who was indicted in
April on federal corruption charges, made news on a very different front
today. Menendez he introduced legislation called -- and this is an acronym
-- the Cecil Act, CECIL, named after the Arican lion whose killing by an
American dentist sparked an international uproar.

The act is designed to curb big game hunting by extending restrictions on
the import and export of animals that are being considered for inclusion
under the Endangered Species Act. Currently those restrictions only apply
to species that are already protected.

According to Menendez`s office, he U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service proposed
listing African lions, like Cecil, as threatened under the endangered
species act last October, though it has not finalized any such protections.

In a statement, Menendez said the actual disincentivized killings of
threatened species, stating , quote, "let`s not be cowardly lions when it
comes to
trophy killings."


HAYES: We are just six days away from the first Republican presidential
debate, six days. As we`ve been covering under the rules set out by Fox
News, which is hosting the debate, only ten of the 17 major GOP candidates
will be allowed to participate in the main debate, though there will be a
JV debate so-to-speak earlier in the day for the also-rans.

To get into the prime-time debate, the candidate must be polling in the top
10 in an average of national polls, though there`s a lot of uncertainty
around exactly what that means, some some of the candidates are polling
very close to each other. And FOX News won`t say which polls it plans to

Now, this is where things stand today, according to an NBC News Analysis.

Donald Trump, a guy you might have heard of as the leader in the poll, will
be positioned at the center of the stage, according to the rules Fox laid

He`ll be flanked by Jeb Bush and Scott Walker, who are pulling in second
and third.

Down on the ends of the stage, hanging onto their spots for dear life, are
Chris Christie and John Kasich, though they could easily fail to make the
cut as there are a bunch of candidates nipping at their heels.

For the candidate who do make it, there is a ton of advice going around
about the best way to handle the fact that a certain bomb throwing real
estate developer/ former reality TV star will be center stage.

Though we should note that The Donald is vowing to, quote, be very nice and
highly respectful of the other candidates, which for my viewers would,
probably be a little bit disappointing.

While Trump is being urged by some to behave like a choir boy as a way of
positioning himself as a more reasonable candidate, many are advising Jeb
Bush to
ignore any attacks from Trump or at least laugh them off.

As one Republican told Politico in reference to Bush dealing with Trump,
quote, never wrestle with a pig, you get dirty and besides the pig likes

Meanwhile, a strategist for John Kasich, in what appears to be a reference
to Trump tweeted, quote, "imagine a NASCAR driver mentally preparing for a
race knowing one of the drivers will be drunk. That`s what prepping for
this debate is like.

Instead of giving advice to the candidates, what we`re going to do, we`re
going to do something a little different here at All In. When we come
back, we`re going to be offering some advice to the debate moderator: Fox
News`s Bret Baier.

What questions should he ask to actually prompt revealing answers. And
with Trump on stage, how does he keep the whole thing from turning into a
circus? It won`t be an easy task. We`ve got some pretty good ideas. Stay
with us.



DONALD TRUMP, REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER: As far as preparing for the debates,
Ii am who I am. I don`t know. I`ve never debated before. I`m not a
debater. I get things done.

You nkow, these guys debate every night of their life. That`s all they do
debate. They debate all over the place and nothing happens.

So I`m sort of the opposite. So I have no idea. You know, I am who I am.
I`ll show up. I look forward to it. And that`s all can I do.

I have no idea how I`ll do. Maybe I`ll do terribly, maybe I`ll do great.


HAYES: Joining me now to discuss how a moderator can keep next week`s GOP
presidential debate featuring frontrunner Donald Trump from turning into a
complete farce is Chicago Sun-Times Washington bureau chief Lynn Sweet and
MSNBC national correspondent Joy Reid.

I should note it`s not just Bret Baier, Chris Wallace and Megyn Kelly, the
three of them will be moderating it.

So, Lynn, do you have any tips? I know you`ve -- I believe you`ve
debates in Chicago before. Do you got any tips about how you control ten
people on stage when one of them is Donald Trump?

LYNN SWEET, CHICAGO SUN-TIMES: Well, I did a debate with multiple, with
almost ten people.

One of the things is that the moderator has to understand thatnot everyone
is going to necessarily get a say on every question. So I`m not sure what
the rules
are, but I`m not certain that everybody has to be asked the same question
all the time.

So Trump says he doesn`t and he just shows up, well you still have subject
matter stuff to study. So I would have simple questions, you know, if we
a chance, I brought some sample questions along.

HAYES: Yeah.

SWEET: That you and Joy and I could talk about. I`m ready to offer up
some, But you have to keep the questions simple because with ten people
there, the moderator cannot eat up the time in making speeches that end up
in a question. That`s advice number one.

HAYES: That is a great point. Part of it also is going to be trying to
bring things to heel is going to be difficult. I say this as someone who
never has ten guests on my show. I don`t think I`ve ever had ten guests,
you know you start to get two or three, things get heated. Basically,
steering can get a little tricky, Joy.

I think that it`s very easy that things get away from the folks who are
sort of moderating this if things get testy


And I`ll tell you, Chris, as somebody -- I haven`t moderated a presidential
debate but I have moderated a lot of forums. I actually just moderated a
forum yesterday at the Urban League Conference.

And that was only four people on the panel. And it`s difficult to keep
things time wise, because I`ll tell you the two people you never want to
hand the microphone to, a politician and a pastor, because both of them
talk long.

So, the thing that ends up happening is that each person has a really
elongated response and they won`t want to stay in the time.

And I think what the moderators, they`re going to have to watch out for,
particularly with somebody like Donald Trump, who has a -- let`s just say,
an attitude, particularly when he speaks with women, and I think this is
for Megyn Kelly specifically, is that trying to go after the moderator if
they try to cut you off, or try to clip you, that is now a strategy. Newt
Gingrich used it. Belittling the moderator is a strategy. They need to
watch out for it and they need to insist that people keep to time.

And I`ll make a quick prediction, I think if somebody ends up chumping
Donald Trump and having a moment with him, it`s probably more likely to be
Megyn Kelly, the only women that`s going to be in that room.

HAYES: That is a very good point.

All right, so some questions, Lynn. You have got some prepared. What
would you like to see asked?

SWEET: Well, the first thing I would ask Donald Trump where he says I am
who I am. Well, he could run a company by himself if he owns it, you don`t
own government. So the most important question -- and I hope the people
who cover
him asks this whether or not in the debate, you`re the president, Mr.
Trump, how do you get to 60 votes in the senate even if it`s run by
Republicans as it is now?

That is the essential question in how you govern. It doesn`t almost matter
what your philosophies are for the moment. We can put that aside.
Threshold question.

Then, do you want me to give a few more?

HAYES: Yeah, sure.

SWEET: OK, so one of the things that you do, because you have to let every
voice in, you just can`t just focus on Walker and Trump and Bush. I would
just go around in kind of a lightning round and say just to get -- since
this is the first debate, let`s get something established. Do you believe
in climate change? Yes, no, yes, no, and then just at least everybody can
have a say.

HAYES: That`s a great one.

And I think you have got to be more specific. You have to say do you
the overwhelming scientific consensus that human activity and carbon
emissions are
heating the planet?

SWEET: Well, I don`t know. I think even gives them some wiggle room. But
we could work on the wording. I would keep everything as airtight as
possible, because you know without saying, well, you know -- they could Tom
Utically parse even what you say.

HAYES: OK, let me stop you right there -- and Joy, if you have -- do you
have anything you`ve been cooking up?

REID: The only thing I would suggest is that particularly with somebody,
not just with Donald Trump, but some of the others, is ask for specific
policy prescription. You don`t like Obamacare, what specifically would you
replace it with? And insist that they be specific.

HAYES: Oh, interesting. Lynn, you think that`s a bad idea?

SWEET: Here`s why it`s a bad idea with all my abundance of respect, Joy,
they would eat up time. You have ten people. This is even if ten people
talked one minute, it`s an enormous amount of time.

HAYES: So I actually think there`s a way to combine that. And here what
I`ve been thinking about -- what was -- there was that iconic moment about
would you -- they raise their hands, would you shut down the government,
right? I think it was a government shut down question or it was during the
sort of default stuff. And.

SWEET: But technically, you don`t want to have them to raise their hands,
because we want the transcript. We want them to actually say what they...

HAYES: That is a good point, but I thought, you know, for instance, raise
your hand if you as president, would pursue a policy of deporting all 11
million people who are in the country illegally? I`m genuinely -- that is
a question that I don`t know if everyone raises their hand, and I think --
I also think, here`s the thing I think that is interesting about the raise
your hand moment, you could see the calculation of peer pressure happening
when that was asked last time around.

SWEET: Right, because we saw hands kind of go...

HAYES: Right, because people were like where am I? Where am I on this?

REID; And Chris it was on evolution. I remember that moment. And I think
it was whether or not you believe in evolution was one of the hand raising
where people are looking around saying, OK, I have think about the
evangelicals, I have to think about the evangelicals, but do I want to be
honest here. And I think those are actually really telling moments.

SWEET: But one other quick thing, if you don`t have...

HAYES: Let me just clarify, the iconic one was a dollar in tax increases
for $10 in spending cuts, and those were people saying they would reject
that. That was the big one -- Lynn.

SWEET: And for the candidates who have big super PACs, and not every one
question fits all, I`d say let`s say to Jeb Bush how you keep a straight
face when you kept up the fiction that you were not running for president
when you collected all this money.

HAYES: I htink -- here`s another out of the box question, who`s your
favorite multimillion dollar donor?

SWEET: No one will know.

HAYES: Who do you like the best? Just tell us.

SWEET: You don`t have time for that. Again, I respectfully disagree, but
why don`t you do this -- would you appoint your dig donors ambassadors.

HAYES: Yeah, the ambassador one is good.

Lynn Sweet and Jo Reid, well, we`ll see if any of those get taken up. We
will find out soon enough.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now.


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