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All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, August 3rd, 2015

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Date: August 3, 2015
Guest: Gabriel Sherman, Bob Inglis


ALEX WAGNER, MSNBC GUEST HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

don`t what to waste money on pollsters because, you know, I don`t want to
be unreal. I want to be me. I have to be me.

WAGNER: Debate week in America. As Trump reaches new highs in the
polls, a backlash to the criteria that will put him at center stage.


WAGNER: Then, the president`s historic push for clean energy.

as being too late when it comes to climate change.

WAGNER: Plus, as Senate Republicans try to defund Planned Parenthood,
Hillary Clinton stands up to protect it.

back. I`m proud to stand with Planned Parenthood.

WAGNER: And Senator Chuck Schumer brings his cousin into the fight
for gun control.

AMY SCHUMER, ACTRESS: Unless something is done and done soon,
dangerous people will continue to get their hands on guns.

WAGNER: ALL IN starts right now.


WAGNER: Good evening from New York. I`m Alex Wagner, in for Chris

With the first GOP presidential debate just three days away, the
backlash against FOX News over the rules of that debate is reaching a fever
pitch. And new reporting tonight suggests Donald Trump`s friend Rudy
Giuliani is pressuring FOX to keep Megyn Kelly from putting too much
pressure on Trump. We will have the author of that report in a moment.

But, first, two new national polls today with more good news for The
Donald. Both polls show Trump leading the pack with 26 percent support
among Republican primary voters, giving him a double digit lead over his
nearest rival Jeb Bush.

Trump and Bush are essentially guaranteed to be on that debate stage
Thursday night, but seven of the GOP`s 17 major candidates are poised to be
left out under FOX News` controversial rules that dictate the candidates
pulling among the top ten in national polls will be allowed to the

Those who seem unlikely to make that cut are none too happy about the


SANTORUM: National polls mean nothing. And so, it`s an arbitrary
figure. Unfortunately, the networks and the RNC have gone along with this
irrelevant measure of legitimacy of candidacy. People are concerned that
the media is now saying, we`re going to decide, who the -- you know, cull
the field. We`re going to decide who the top candidates are.


WAGNER: That`s your 2012 second place finisher, almost certainly
relegated to the so-called kiddy table debate. Also appearing to miss the
cut is former Texas Governor Rick Perry, who is edged out by Governors
Christie and Kasich by a little more than a percentage point.

And if that sounds arbitrary and unscientific, there say major polling
firm that agrees with you. The Marist Institute of Public Opinion has
decided to suspend its Republican polling since the FOX News system, quote,
"asks public polls to have a precision that ignores the margin of error."

In other words, a difference of a percentage point or two is
effectively meaningless and yet, it`s being used to decide who makes the

As for the debate itself, we may have got a preview yesterday when the
self-funding Trump lashed out at the five GOP candidates who attended a
conference organized by the Koch brothers over the weekend, tweeting out
that those who had gone to, quote, "beg for money from the Koch`s may be
the wealthy brother`s puppets."

Appearing on "Meet the Press" yesterday, Trump suggest he won`t be
looking to attack at the debate, though he said he would be prepared to


TRUMP: I certainly, I think I know most of the subjects very well.
I`ve been through it. A lot of people have been asking me a lot of
questions for three or four months and we`ll see what happens. But again,
I don`t think you can artificially prepare for something like this.


WAGNER: Joining me now, MSNBC political analyst Michael Steele,
former chair of the RNC, and "New York Magazine`s" national affairs editor
Gabriel Sherman, author of biography of FOX News president, Roger Ailes,
"The Loudest Voice in the Room."

Gabe, so let`s just start with FOX News. How much pressure are they
under right now? Ands how much do you think they`re feeling the heat

GABRIEL SHERMAN, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: I mean, this is unprecedented in
American politics, where one TV network and an executive who runs it, Roger
Ailes, is controlling who Republicans get to see debate on the stage, and
the campaigns are lobbying him because it seems obvious. But Republicans
watch FOX News.

So, if you`re a Republican candidate running for president, and you
are not on that main debate stage, your chances at this early age have been
torpedoed. So, you see this aggressive lobbying behind the scenes. Rick
Perry`s supporters are calling Ailes. Rudy Giuliani called Ailes because
he`s a friend of Trump`s. I mean, you see them all behind the stage
maneuvering because they know the value of being on the FOX News stage.

WAGNER: Do you think that`s having an effect? Does the Rudy Giuliani
call to Roger Ailes actually have the intended effect? Are they
susceptible to it?

SHERMAN: I don`t think so. I mean, Ailes as we know has taken over
the Republican Party. He`s going to do what he wants to do.

But I think the reaction is more revealing, that sort of the panic you
see in the Republican Party about trying to curry favor with the this one
TV executive. It really is unprecedented.

WAGNER: Chairman Steele, Lindsey Graham has been dishing out the
quotable quotes lately and I want to play a little bit of sound today when
he talked about Donald Trump and the effect of Donald Trump in this debate.


Donald Trump debate. It`s going to be, how will he perform? What will he
say? Well, when I`m in the first debate, happy hour debate at 5:00, start
drinking, by 9:00, Donald may make sense if you drink enough.


WAGNER: Chairman Steele, by 9:00, Donald Trump may make sense to you
if you drink enough.

Now, let me ask you this, following on what --


WAGNER: He`s having a moment in his own way. Chairman, which do you
think is the longer term problem for the Republican Party at this
particular moment? The FOX debate rules, which may preclude certain
serious candidates from taking the main stage or Donald Trump who may have
a long-term ripple effect?

STEELE: I think probably the debate rules because apparently CNN is
buying into this idea, as well, given that they haven`t formally announced
how they`re going to do it when the they host the debate, but those others
downstream from the FOX debate, at least initially had indicated this was a
good standard, and so, they may be not parenthesis of rethinking this.

I think you`re absolutely right, at the end of the day, if you`re the
at the kiddie table, if you are a Senator Lindsey Graham, or Rick Santorum,
your purposes are frustrated in terms of getting on that national stage and
being seen as an equal for the nomination, even though numbers may be a
percentage off here and there with the other candidates, but that`s not
going to happen because hardly anyone is going to tune in for the first
debate and everyone is going to focus in on the second one and that is
really going to be considered the field going forward until something else

WAGNER: Gabe, it`s always a bad thing when the pollsters are
revolting, right? The fact that they are saying we`re going to stop
polling because we don`t want to be part of this, what is FOX doing to
shore up against the inevitable criticism?

SHERMAN: Well, what I find fascinating is inside FOX News, Ailes is
essentially running a counter campaign against his GOP critics, that they
are studying all these methodologies and coming up with talking points so
that tomorrow when they announced official field, they will have credible
answers to defend against what Chairman Steele said, which is, how do you
distinguish between the margin of error where one poll is 3 percent and
other is 4 percent? So, essentially, they are trying to run their own FOX
News campaign.

WAGNER: The irony there is thick.

Chairman Steele, there is always the old adage, keep your friends
close and your enemies even closer, is truer now than ever. It is worth
discussing the fact that one of the reasons among many that GOP candidate
haves been out really critical of Trump is because there is always a
possibility of a third party run that he may make.

Today, Rasmussen has a new poll. It says over 36 percent of likely
Republican voters say they are likely to vote for Trump if he`s a third
party candidate. How seriously do you take that?

STEELE: Oh, I do take it very seriously and I think Trump is very
sensitive to that in a positive way for him. In other words, certainly a
card he holds either up the sleeve or in his back pocket to be played and
he`s already indicated, you know, if the party is nice to me, if these --
if people, you know, want to play fair, then, you know, this is not going
to be an issue.

So I don`t think Donald Trump is going anywhere. I think Donald Trump
is the on one that takes himself out of the campaign. He`s got the money.
He`s not buying into the traditional methodologies of pollsters and a lot
of, you know, hangers on.

He`s running what is apparently a stream line campaign. He`s
beginning to ramp up a little bit in certain other states like Iowa and New
Hampshire. So, he`s doing this his own way and I think that keeps the
interest in him with those folks that 36 percent or whatever it happens to
be and he knows that.

So, going into Thursday, Alex, I don`t think you`re going to see this
maniacal guy whose running around screaming at everybody. I think you`ve
got a taste of what you`re going to see from Donald from the "Meet the
Press" interview with Chuck Todd, measured, a little bit disciplined and

WAGNER: Well, his spokesperson says Trump will be Trump, according to
NBC`s Katy Tur, Chairman.

STEELE: Well --

WAGNER: And also, also, important to note that the Trump campaign has
already laid out detailed policy plans and solutions for some of the
nation`s biggest problems. So, are you expecting to hear an alternative to
the Affordable Care Act on the debate stage on Thursday night coming from
Donald Trump?

STEELE: I think you`ll hear some elements of that. I think you`re
going to hear probably in broad strokes, but that`s been one of the
underlying criticisms. So, where is the beef? What`s the substance? How
do you propose to do this?

And I think this affords him to answer the question, we know there is
a provocateur in Donald Trump. We know there`s an antagonist in Donald
Trump. The question is, is there a president inside Donald Trump? And
that`s what people want to see.

WAGNER: And that is not a rhetorical question. Gabe, really, really
fast. Is there any chance that Rick Perry and his fancy glasses will make
it to the stage as lucky number 11? That FOX would add a seat?

SHERMAN: As of today, from everything I`ve heard inside the network,
I don`t see it. I could be wrong, but I`ve heard they are planning on ten

WAGNER: Gabe Sherman, fascinating reporting in "New York Magazine" --
thank you for your time.

Chairman Steele, always good to see you.

STEELE: You got it.

WAGNER: Tomorrow, Hillary Clinton`s campaign will begin airing its
first TV ads in Iowa and New Hampshire at a cost of $2 million -- ads which
will focus on Clinton`s person biography.

Meanwhile, there are new indications that Vice President Joe Biden may
elect to enter the race, thanks in part to his son, former Delaware
Attorney General Beau Biden, who passed away in May.

In his last days, Beau reportedly tried to make his father promise to
run, arguing that the White House should not revert to the Clintons. And
we learned this weekend that a senior advisor to Beau Biden is joining the
Draft Biden Super PAC, to lay the financial groundwork for a potential
Biden bid.

Biden is polling at 13 percent right now. Far behind Clinton and
trailing Bernie Sanders, as well. Many Democrats are responding
skeptically to renewed reports of a potential Biden candidacy. But if
Biden does enter the race, it would fundamentally transform this contest,
turning what many see as a potential coronation for Hillary Clinton into a
high stakes battle between two of the Democratic Party`s most powerful

Joining me now is "Daily Beast" columnist and MSNBC political analyst,
Jonathan Alter.

OK, Jonathan --


WAGNER: -- what`s happening here?

ALTER: Well, we don`t know. I mean, this is a decision that`s going
to be made by Joe Biden, not by somebody drafting him or some aide who, you
know, thinks he should run. This is a personal kind of decision that you
can make. So, he`s in Delaware, you know, this past weekend, trying to
figure out, make a decision.

It`s not such a great sign for him that he`s at 13 percent, because
often you`re more popular before you get into the race.

WAGNER: Although, he`s in politics, which usually depresses the
numbers a little bit, right?

ALTER: Yes, but remember, there`s a tremendous outpouring of sympathy
for the vice president in recent months over the death of his son. You
know, there`s really great love for him inside the Democratic Party. What
he has to figure out is, is that different than support?

WAGNER: How closely do you think the financial picture is going to
inform this decision? Because you have two very powerful motivators if you
will. One is Biden`s tenacity and his belief in participating in American
democracy. The other is the sorrow that just hangs over the Biden clan,
the feeling that maybe beau would have wanted this.

Does something as pragmatic as financials truly factor in when Joe
Biden makes a decision?

ALTER: Well, when you have to -- when you get serious, and it stops
becoming something you`re thinking about because your son wanted you to
think about it before his death -- yes, of course, you have to look at --
you know, can we raise the money to be competitive? Because you don`t want
to run if you can`t win.

Now, having said, money is less important in presidential politics
than it is if you`re running for the Senate or for governor. If you become
the nominee, you know, you can raise plenty of money for the fall. A lot
of money is for name recognition, he doesn`t have that issue. You know, he
would be immediately recognizable. But he`s old, he would be by far the
oldest president when elected next year.

So, you know, I still think it`s less than 50/50 that he goes ahead
and does this. He also doesn`t haven any real animus toward Hillary

I had a conversation with him in 2009 about his relationship with
Hillary Clinton and they disagreed about Iraq at that point and, you know,
they were having disagreements about Afghanistan and certain policy issues,
they didn`t see eye to eye all the time inside the Obama administration and
he said he was having breakfast with her regularly than would try to get on
the same page, but that he had great respect for her and she does for him.

WALTER: Do you think there is such a thing or is it feasible to think
of Biden as sort of an insurance policy candidate, which is if things go
terribly south for Hillary Clinton, he can swoop in and save the party`s
nomination, or save the party and get to the White House if she`s not going
to make it in the long --

ALTER: It`s no a bad theory. And, you know, there is an
investigation and there is a drip, drip, drip on some of these stories, the
e-mails. I mean, most people don`t think that they are going to derail her
but with the Clintons, you`re never quite sure.

So, but to run as an insurance policy, it takes a lot to run for


WALTER: You have to have organization waiting in the wings, don`t

ALTER: You run as insurance, I mean, I think that`s more of a pundit
thing. You know, it`s true that if you`re Democrat, you kind of want that
insurance. But if you`re Joe Biden, you don`t run to be a running piece of

WALTER: Well, it is a sensational plot twist on the Democratic side
where there have not been a lot.

Jonathan Alter, great to see you. Thank you for your time.

ALTER: Thanks, Alex.

WAGNER: Coming up, President Obama announces a major step in
addressing global warming.

Plus, almost one year after the shooting of Michael Brown, former
police officer Darren Wilson gives an in depth interview.

And later, Amy Schumer joins cousin Senator Chuck Schumer to announce
an initiative on gun safety.

Those stories and more are ahead.


WAGNER: From chainsaw-wielding Rand Paul to a cell phone-destroying
Lindsey Graham, to a machine gun-firing Ted Cruz cooking bacon on a hot
muzzle - yes, you heard that correctly, cooking bacon on a hot muzzle --
Republicans are going viral. We`ll talk about that phenomenon just ahead.



OBAMA: Last month, for the first time since 1972, NASA released the
blue marble, the single snapshot of the earth taken from outer space. And
so much has changed in the decades between the first picture and the
second. But one thing hasn`t, our planet is beautiful as ever. It still
looks blue.

We`re the first generation to feel the impact of climate change.
We`re the last generation that can do something about it. We only get one
home. We only get one planet.


WAGNER: Today, President Obama announced the most far-reaching action
on climate change that this country has ever seen. Called the "Clean Power
Plan", it sets a goal of cutting carbon pollution from power plants by 32
percent by the year 2030 as compared with 2005 levels.

But the president warned that getting the plan past its critics is
going to be tough.


OBAMA: Long before the details of this "Clean Power Plan" were even
decided, the special interests and their allies in Congress were already
mobilizing and opposed it with everything they`ve got. We`ve heard these
stale arguments before. Every time America made progress, it`s been
despite these kinds of claims.

Whenever America has set clear rules and smarter standards for our
air, our water, our children`s health, we get the same scary stories about
killing jobs, and businesses, and freedom. It`s true.


WAGNER: Joining me now is former Congressman Bob Inglis, a Republican
who represented South Carolina`s fourth district. He`s now the executive
director of the Energy and Enterprise Initiative at George Mason

Bob, thanks for joining me.

FMR. REP. BOB INGLIS (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Good to be with you.

WAGNER: So, before we get to the plan itself, I just want to talk to
you about the argument, or the idea that the president set forth. This
notion of a blue marble, that we only get one home, we only get one planet,
which I think setting everything else aside is a profoundly affecting
argument or thing to remember, regardless of whether you`re a Democrat or

INGLIS: Yes, it is. This bit of Eden that`s left, it`s glorious, it
reflects the beauties of the creator, and surely, we want to tend that

WAGNER: Do you think that that idea, the tending of the garden, has
an affect on the Republicans who maybe resistant to the notion of doing
something about a changing climate?

INGLIS: I think the problem has been that we conservatives haven`t
seen a solution that we like yet. We`ve heard about bigger government,
about regulations, about things that involved setting caps and then trading
underneath that, all that sounds very complicated, and involves a growth of
government. So, what we`ve got to do, I believe, in order to get
conservatives to step forward, is to show some solutions that fit with
conservative values.

WAGNER: So, what would some of those solutions be?

INGLIS: It`s mostly fixing the economics. You know, what we at, it`s a, believe is that this is a problem
with economics that has an environmental consequence. So, if you fix the
economics, then Senator Cornyn, for example, is exactly correct, Jeb Bush
is exactly correct, the innovation is what`s going to take us out of this

But getting that innovation means fixing the economics making it so
that the competing fuels can compete against the incumbent fuels. And
that`s a problem of economics.

WAGNER: But so, is that -- is that a carbon tax? What is that?

INGLIS: Yes. In my view, it would be a revenue neutral, border
adjustable carbon tax. Revenue neutral means no growth of government, that
if we`re going to tax CO2, you got to give a corresponding dollar for
dollar tax cut somewhere else on punishment of income, in others, reduce
that tax that punishes income, put the tax on emissions dollar for dollar.
No growth for government. So, it`s revenue neutral.

Also, border adjustable, making it so imports are subject to the same

WAGNER: Well, let me interrupt you for one second, Bob, because if
we`re talking about, you know, poison pills or language that is just
kryptonite, do you think this president would have more success saying the
word "tax", or Republicans for that matter would have more success pushing
for a tax, no matter what it was, as opposed to regulation?

INGLIS: Well, I think Mr. Obama would have more success if he said --
listen, we can give you the votes for a tax on carbon dioxide, understand
that you conservatives need to cut taxes somewhere. So, how about this
deal? We`ll give you the votes for pricing carbon dioxide and you Speaker
Boehner choose the corresponding tax cut.

Now, that`s risky for the president. But it`s out of the box
thinking. The box we`re in gives us a regulatory clunky solution that`s
going to be litigated until the cows come home, and the result is going to
be a domestic only clumsiest possible pricing of carbon dioxide. The
alternative is more creative, it`s to say, Speaker Boehner, we`ll give the
votes for pricing carbon dioxide, you choose the corresponding tax cuts, so
that both get what they need.

WAGNER: But, Bob, let me just again, just to go back to where we are
practically, while there is clearly a difference of the minds as far as
solution, you still have very powerful vocal elements in the Republican
Party like Ted Cruz who refuse to even acknowledge this is a problem. He
said over the weekend, to scientists who have acknowledged climate change,
"They`re cooking the books. They`re actually adjusting numbers. Enron
used to do their books the same way."

Comparing climate scientists to the guys at Enron.

INGLIS: Well, it`s like this, Alex, if I told you here is the plan of
surgery for the back problem you`re having. First, we`re going to remove
your head. Once you get your head off and work on your spine and have your
head back on. You`d say to me, thanks, doc, I don`t think I got a back
problem anymore, right? Because the solution is anathema.

So, what Senator Cruz is responding to I think is the solution is
proposed, which is something like cap and trade that involves a growth of
government and enormous complexity, it decimated American manufacturing
that just anathema. So, of course, it`s like that back surgery plan. I
say I don`t have a problem anymore.

So, if we can show a solution that fits with conservative values,
conservatives can enter this conversation.

WAGNER: Bob Inglis, offering a decidedly more bullish assessment of
how the Republican Party may come along on the issue of climate change --
thanks for your time.

INGLIS: Great to be with you.

WAGNER: Up next, why today`s vote to defund Planned Parenthood could
be just a small preview of what we can expect this fall.

Stay with us.


SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), KENTUCKY: It represent as triumph of blind
ideology over sound policy.



WAGNER: A procedural vote to defund Planned Parenthood just failed in
the senate. Republicans managed to pick up only two Democrats: West
Virginia`s Joe Manchin and Indiana`s Joe Donnelly, and fell short of the
60-vote threshold to advance the bill.

But today`s move by Senate Republicans is just a sign of battles to
come as the fight against Planned Parenthood enters a new phase set in
motion by undercover videos from an anti-abortion group purporting to show
Planned Parenthood staff discussing the sale of fetal tissue for medical

The videos does actually show any illegal activity, and Planned
Parenthood maintains it does not make any profit off of tissue donations.

Nevertheless, a group of House Republicans is already threatening to
federal budget vote negotiations this fall, writing a letter to House
Speaker John Boehner pledging to oppose any spending bill that maintains
Planned Parenthood funding.

Presidential candidate Senator Ted Cruz even raised the possibility of
another government shutdown in order to force the issue.

Never one to be left out, Louisiana Governor and fellow 2016 hopeful
Jindal is taking action at the state level, where most abortion
restrictions have been carried out.

Today, Jindal canceled Planned Parenthood`s contract to received state
Medicaid funds, a primary source of funding for services to low income

In a new campaign video released today, Hillary Clinton defends
Planned Parenthood and calls out some of her Republican opponents by name.


Walker and Jeb Bush are calling to defund Planned Parenthood, the country`s
leading provider of reproductive health care. And they are joined by
Republicans in congress.

If this feels like a full-on assault on women`s health, that`s because
it is. When politicians talk about defunding Planned Parenthood, they`re
talking about blocking millions of women, men, and young people from life-
saving preventive care.


WAGNER: Joining me now, Karen Finney, senior adviser for
communications and political outreach and senior spokesperson for Hillary
for America.

You deserve all of it.

KAREN FINNEY, HILLARY FOR AMERICA: Thank you so much, Alex Wagner.

WAGNER: So, Karen, the notion thus far that`s been circulating is
that somehow this defunding Planned Parenthood is good to motivate
Republican voters, Republican base voters, but in the end, could this move
by Republicans actually put Hillary Clinton in the White House?

FINNEY: Well, it could. I mean, I certainly think it favors
Democrats. And I think it favors both Democratic voters, and I think it`s
an important issue, frankly, for moderate and independent voters, and
that`s part of why, you know, this sort of strategy doesn`t really make
much sense.

I understand why they`re trying to appeal to their base. But we have
seen this movie before. And we know that Planned Parenthood is very
popular with a majority of Americans. They don`t want to see funds cut.
And yet you have -- I mean, even your owned NBC/Wall Street Journal poll,
it`s the most popular organization over the NRA, and yet you have got
Republicans out there on the campaign trail attacking it.

And again, when they do so, it resonates with men and women and young
voters. But again it`s moderates, it`s not just -- so it`s that sort of --
those swing voters that everybody is trying to get. So I think it favors a

WAGNER: When you hear about Governor Jindal basically preventing
Planned Parenthood from getting Medicaid funding for what are reproductive
health services, basic health care in many cases, and then
disproportionately affects low income minority women, especially in the
south where we`ve seen regulations in Texas basically make abortion only
for the privileged.

Is that fair to begin calling this a war on women? And are we going
to hear that from Hillary Clinton?

FINNEY: I think it`s no question -- I mean, the war on women has
never taken a break. I think a lot of us feel like it`s been ongoing.

And absolutely. I mean part of the reason that we put this video out
today was to reaffirm -- with the vote coming today, Hillary wanted to
reaffirm her support for Planned Parenthood, but also a wake-up call to
people that we`ve got to be paying attention to these votes and we`ve got
to be paying attention to this assault. Because I don`t think it`s going
to end. I think we`re going to see more effort to try to find ways to chip
away at Planned Parenthood. and we cannot let this happen.

I mean, I think part of why this is resonating with people also, Alex,
is this is critical. I mean, if you live in a community, if you`re a low-
income person, this could be life or death. If you can`t access health
care services, or you have to go, you know, additional miles...

WAGNER: Hundreds of miles in some cases.

FINNEY: And you don`t have the resources to get there, I mean, think
about the preventive services that -- you know, again, it doesn`t make
sense to deny people that kind of health care. And so I think people feel
the sense of urgency around this issue.

WAGNER: What about the -- I mean, the budget negotiations that can be
informed by -- basically Republicans trying to shout down the government
over Planned Parenthood?

Rand Paul had a choice piece of sound yesterday on CNN. I want to
play it. Preemptively trying to blame that government shutdown on
President Obama. Let`s take a listen.


SEN. RAND PAUL, (R) KENTUCKY: I support any legislation that will
defund Planned Parenthood, but I don`t think you start out with your
objective to shut down government. I mean, if President Obama wants to
shut down government because he doesn`t get funds for Planned Parenthood,
that would be President Obama`s determination to shut down government.


WAGNER: OK, so what`s happening there. Does Rand Paul -- is he
trying to prevent a government shutdown? Is he trying to do the spin ahead
of time?

FINNEY: He`s trying to spin it ahead of time. And, you know, the
other thing Rand Paul had said was that we don`t need Planned Parenthood.
And he`s not thinking about all the women who live in states where their
governors did not expand Medicaid or places like Louisiana where now he`s
just going to cut it out altogether.

Yeah, I think you`re going to hear some pre-spin heading up to the

But just imagine if this country we are talking about shutting down
the government over access to health care services like breast

WAGNER: Cervical cancer screenings.

FINNEY: HIV-AIDS testing, family planning services. I mean, we`re
going to shut down the government over denying women access to basic health
care services? Again, I think people are going to see this feel a sense of
urgency around that.

WAGNER: We`re just waiting to hear and see the logical pretzel that
blames the government shutdown on Hillary Clinton, but there are still
weeks until we get there.

Thank you Karen Finney for your time as always.

Up next, the new New Yorker profile of former officer Darren Wilson,
and what he says nearly one year after the shooting of Michael Brown. That
story is just ahead.


WAGNER: The new issue of the New Yorker features an explosive profile
of Darren Wilson, the Ferguson police officer who fatally shot Michael
Brown almost one year ago sparking what became the Black Lives Matter
movement, and whose non-indictment by a grand jury last fall set off yet
another round of nationwide protests.

It is the first major interview Wilson has given since the Department
of Justice decided not to bring federal civil rights charging against him
last spring. And he tells reporter Jack Halperin he doesn`t think past
instances of overt racism among the St. Louis area police have any bearing
on current police community relations.

Quote, "I`m really simple in the way that I look at life. What
happened to my great-grandfather is not happening to me. I can`t base my
actions off what happened to him."

Asked about the he has given since the Justice Department`s report on
widespread systemic racism in Ferguson`s present day police department,
Wilson says and he hasn`t read it.

Quote, "I don`t have any desire. I`m not going to keep living in the
past about what Ferguson did. It`s out of my control."

Joining me now is Anthony Gray, attorney for Michael Brown`s family,
and a former St. Louis police officer.

Anthony, I want to speak to you as a police officer, and someone who
understands St. Louis and the dynamics of serving on the force.

One of the things that strikes me about Darren Wilson interview is
that at some point in his career, he asks another long-serving officer for
help. He says, I don`t know what I`m doing. This is culture shock when he
gets assigned to a new neighborhood. Would you help me, because you
obviously have that connection, and
you can relate to them. You may be white, but they still respect you. Why
can they respect you and not me?

It sounds like there`s a complete lack of training in terms of police-
community relations.

totally agree. And Alex, we have been saying from the very beginning, at
least I have been saying for a very long time, that a lot of these officers
in these predominantly populated African-American areas are inherently
disqualified from being able to serve in these particularly places without
the proper and additional training. They go in intimidated, and by
Wilson`s own word unprepared.

They go in -- it`s a culture shock to them. And individuals such as
that are not the kind of folks that you will find being able to police in
areas like this. So you have problems like we had on August 9, 2014, as a
result of that kind of individual policing in these areas.

So, it`s very problematic.

WAGNER: What also strikes me is his lack of reflection or empathy
what happened. I mean, at one point he`s asked, do I think about who Mike
Brown was a person? Not really, because it doesn`t matter to me at this
point. Do I think he had the best upbringing? No, not at all.

I mean, Officer Wilson arguably knew Mike Brown for about 45 seconds
before he shot him. And I think a lot of people have taken issue with him
judging his upbringing, especially given Wilson`s own what sounds like very
tumultuous childhood.

But the empathy after an incident like this, and that`s probably
downplaying the magnitude of what happened in Ferguson, the lack of empathy
would seem to be a cause for concern.

GRAY: Right. And it is. And, you know, I`m not surprised by it.
It`s the common display that we`ve seen since this incident happened from
former Officer
Darren Wilson. It`s very cocky, is very dismissive.

The fact of the matter is, I can see him not having a lot of remorse,
because he`s concocted from the very begging this version of events that
justifies why he killed Mike Brown Jr. in broad daylight.

So, it`s indicative of the person that we`ve seen from day one. He
doesn`t care, it sounds like. And he took his life in this very matter of
fact, coming off
the pages of the New Yorker when you read his comments. And it`s

WAGNER: Anthony, one of the more I think depressing parts of all of
this is how each side of this argument over what happened to Mike Brown and
what happened with Darren Wilson, has read the Justice Departments finding
and it is -- has found it to validate their point of view. Officers say,
look, he wasn`t shot in the back. It doesn`t sound like he had his hands
up. This wasn`t a racially motivated incident.

Activists and folks looking a police brutality issues in this country
say, there`s systemic racism in the Ferguson police department. There`s a
problem here. The institution needs to be fixed.

And to this day those two sides don`t seem to be talking. I mean at
the end of the piece, Darren Wilson is left talking about how he eats out
only at only certain places. We try to go somewhere, how do I say this
correctly, he says, with like-minded individuals, you know, where it`s not
a mixing pot.

People are self-segregating, or at least Officer Darren Wilson is.

GRAY: Right. And it`s amazing, Alex, when I hear things like that.
It`s like they`re hiding things in plain view. They make comments that
support the very beliefs that most people have in the community in that the
Justice Department have criticized.

For instance -- I`m just going to take this one point I find very
interesting. This whole thing about he didn`t have his hands up. They
completely ignore the fact that Darren Wilson was the one who was the first
person to report that Mike Brown had his hands up. And it`s just amazing
that they allow this narrative to live on and on and on.

So, I just don`t know what to say about it.

WAGNER: Competing narratives. It`s all in The New Yorker. Anthony
Gray, thanks for your time.

GRAY: Thank you, Alex. You have a great day.

WAGNER: Still to come, a renewed call for gun safety in the wake of
the deadly theater shooting last month. Stay with us.


WAGNER: Up next, the new push against gun violence from two cousins.


AMY SCHUMER, COMEDIAN: The critics scoff and say, well, there`s no
way to stop crazy people from doing crazy things, but they`re wrong. There
is a way to stop them.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, (R) ILLINOIS: We all agree, even the gun lobby,
that felons shouldn`t get guns. I think we all agree that spousal abusers
get guns. I think we all agree that those adjudicated mentally ill
get guns. So, all we want to do is tighten up the system.




AMY SCHUMER: We`re here today to say enough is enough to mass
shootings in our schools, our college campuses, our military bases and even
in our movie theaters. These shootings have got to stop. I don`t know how
else to say it.

Maybe the worst part about all this is that there is a common sense
way to
stop mass shootings. There are many ways.


WAGNER: Today, Senator Chuck Schumer joined actress and comedian Amy
Schumer, who also happens to be his second cousin once removed, to call for
stronger background checks for gun buyers.

The two push for new legislation just weeks after a gunman with a long
history of mental illness opened fire in Lafayette, Louisiana at a
screening of Schumer`s hit movie Trainwreck, killing two young women and
injuring nine others.


AMY SCHUMER: When I heard about this news, I was completely
devastated, and
I just -- I wanted to just go down to Louisiana, and then I was angry. My
heart goes out to Julian (ph) and Macy (ph), to the survivors, to the
families and everyone who is tied to this tragic, senseless and horrifying
actions of this man who shouldn`t have been able to put his hands on a gun
in the first place.


WAGNER: The gunman had bought the weapon he used in Alabama after a
background check didn`t pick up his extensive history of mental health

The Schumers are also pushing to improve that patchwork system,
creating financial rewards for states that submit proper background check
information into the system and penalizing those that done.

The actress said she`s ready for whatever reaction she gets for wading
into one of the most divisive issues in American politics.


AMY SCHUMER: I am expecting a backlash. And I`ll handle it the way
handled the last ten years. I`ve had death threats and a lot of hate
directed toward me. But I`m -- I`m someone who I want to be proud of the
way I`m living and what I stand for. And so there was no question.


WAGNER: While Amy Schumer is lending her considerable star power to
gun control efforts, Senator Ted Cruz is doing exactly the opposite,
cooking bacon with a machine gun.

The right going viral is next.



SEN. TED CRUZ, (R) TEXAS: Machine gun bacon.



WAGNER: That was Senator Ted Cruz making bacon on the barrel of a
machine gun.

The video, uploaded by the conservative website the Independent
Journal Review is the Texas senator`s best effort at a viral hit, much like
his colleague Lindsey Graham`s cell phone destruction skit also uploaded by
the IJ Review, that has been viewed over 2 million times.

Here to discuss the right going viral is Xeni Jardins, editor of, and Sam Seder, MSNBC contributor and host of the podcast

Sam, the old adages out of the frying pan into the gun range. No it`s
not. No it`s not at all. What did you make of Ted Cruz?

SAM SEDER, HOST, MAJORITY REPORT: I mean, I think he learned a little
bit from Joni Ernst in terms of the gun range. And you know I think,

WAGNER: And pigs.

SEDER: And pigs, right, as in the bacon.

I also think it`s a way to show that he`s, I guess, cool in those
circles. And it`s almost like a good old segment with The Tonight Show
except for now you don`t have to sit through while the host actually makes
fun of you, right, you get to do your one joke-off.

But I`m also not convinced that he`s trying to differentiate himself
to those people who like him and Trump, right? I mean, this is very Texas
opposed to maybe let`s say New York.

WAGNER: Right.

SEDER: And so I think there`s some value for them there. And then I
think beyond that I don`t think it`s going to do much of him.

WAGNER: But Jennie, it bears mentioning that these videos have been
incredibly popular. I mean, Lindsey Graham`s video has been viewed by 2
million times, and I would guess by Republicans and Democrats alike. The
narrative that
Republicans aren`t funny, or don`t sort of master the sort of viral funny
Internet in the way that maybe Democrats do. Has a glass ceiling of sorts
been broken?

XENI JARDINS, BOINGBOING.NET: Well, first of all I`m always skeptical
about the numbers. We have to know that some of those views may be
Facebook auto playing the video. It`ll be interesting to compare that with
actual viral videos made by fans. I mean, remember Obama girl during the
last Obama campaign? The difference between that and this is that this is
something that a media company that wants to make a lot of money is doing
in order to make a lot of money.

And you know, the other thing is you know who else likes this type of
gun, the AR-15 that Ted Cruz is using? The Colorado theater shooter. He
also had an AR-15. He used it to kill people in that theater.

It`s just -- I think it`s obviously they want people like us to say
that`s it`s in poor taste. But it`s a very accurate video in that it shows
us that Republicans are great at wasting money, food, and ammunition, each
of those magazines that he wasted cost like 20 bucks, that`s like 80 bucks
of ammo to cook 35 cents worth of bacon. That`s Ted Cruz.

WAGNER: I mean, the timing of it as Xeni points out, the James Holmes
theater shooter, the final moment of that trial coming today and also Amy
Schumer and Chuck Schumer taking to the stage to push for stronger gun
safety measures. I mean, this is the ultimate sort of middle finger to all
of that.

And yet nationally the polling around gun safety reform is very much
in support of stricter control and a safer way to procure firearms.

SEDER: Right.

Well, I mean, you basically just laid out the formula as to why Ted
Cruz will
never be president, regardless of what happens in the Republican primary.

I mean, this is the problem is that they are -- within the Republican
primary, they are so hermetically sealed from what the conversation is in
the rest of the country, that think can`t help themselves. I mean, that ad
is clearly not meant for us. Maybe if we talk about it, they get a couple
more views.

But I think Xeni is right, about the questioning is how the numbers
there. I mean, look, I make some money off of YouTube. They have 4,000
subscribers on their channel. It`s a pretty dubious number that that thing
got 2 million hits when
Ben Carson`s only gets 30,000.

But nevertheless, I mean, look, it`s working in so far as people are
talking about them and not Donald Trump, which they`re all desperate to
have happen.

But nobody is going to remember that bacon video after Thursday night.

WAGNER: Xeni, it also bears mentioning that it is a fairly --
Lindsay Graham`s melting of his cellphone, the Ben Carson video is a sort
of screed against the ACA wrapped in comedy sheep`s clothing if you will.
And the Ted Cruz video also has an agenda. The levity is disingenuous if
you will.

JARDINS: The whole thing is fake.

Look, the guy who creative directed these videos, as I understand it,
was Bennie Johnson, IJ Review guy, formally from Buzzfeed. He was fired
from Buzzfeed for plagiarizing more than 40 times.

That`s who is creative directing the IJ Review videos.

This isn`t -- it just -- it feels like such pandering.

Look, I`m from the south. I love bacon. I own a gun and I love --
responsible gun ownership is great. Responsible bacon cooking is great.
These are neither.

It wasn`t even a machine gun. An AR-15 technically isn`t a machine

So, come on.

WAGNER: I`m not even sure he was actually even eating that bacon.


WAGNER: The fork doesn`t really prove it.

JARDINS: I don`t buy it.

SEDER: No, no.

WAGNER: Xeni Jardins.

JARDINS: Come over to my house, Ted Cruz, I`ll show you how we cook

WAGNER: In a frying pan, maybe.

Xeni Jardins and Sam Seder, thank you guys both for joining me

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts now.


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