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All In With Chris Hayes, Tuesday, August 4th, 2015

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August 4, 2015



Guest: Rick Wilson, Rick Tyler, Terry O`Neill, Brian Beutler, Joshua

Green, Jonathan Chait, Mike Pesca


ALEX WAGNER, MSNBC GUEST HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS: In the first spot, directly center stage,

businessman billionaire Donald Trump.

WAGNER: The stage is set. Who will be standing with the unsinkable,

unthinkable Donald Trump on Thursday night?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think people are tired --

they`re sick and tired of incompetent politicians.

WAGNER: Plus, the push to shut down to government using Planned

Parenthood, the pranking on the campaign trail, and a little TMI from the

governor of New Jersey.


but I`ve used birth control and not just the rhythm method, OK?

WAGNER: ALL IN starts right now.


WAGNER: Good evening from New York. I`m Alex Wagner, in for Chris


Breaking news tonight, the stage is finally set for this Thursday`s

first Republican presidential debate.


BAIER: We can now announce the ten candidates who will appear on

stage for the prime time debate Thursday night and the seven who will be

invited to the earlier debate on the same stage her in Cleveland.


WAGNER: FOX News made the controversial decision to allow only ten

candidates into its prime time debate, based on their standing in an

average of five national polls chosen by FOX News, and including FOX News

own poll. The network is also holding a separate debate earlier in the day

for the rest of the field.

In announcing the lineup a short time ago, FOX News hosts tried to

stress that the candidacies of the Republicans who missed the cut are still

to be taken seriously despite the fact that FOX relegated them to what many

have been calling the kid`s table.


BAIER: Again, it`s important to point out that any of those

candidates could bump up later on and be in a different position in a

different debate.

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS: This is still almost seven, eight months

before people start voting in Iowa. Some of the people that are in the top

tier will fall back into the second tier, and some of the people in the

second tier will come forward.


WAGNER: Here is how the stage will look for the main event on

Thursday night. Front-runner Donald Trump who holds a double-digit lead

over his nearest competitor, he will be at center stage, flanked by Jeb

Bush and Governor Scott Walker, who are polling in second and third place.

Positions four through eight will be occupied by Mike Huckabee, Ben Carson,

Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio and Rand Paul. And down at the ends of the stage,

Chris Christie and John Kasich who squeaked in at about 3 percent support


These are the candidates who didn`t make it, and are being relegated

to that separate debate in 5:00 p.m. They include Rick Perry, who barely

missed the cut despite a series of high profile attacks on Donald Trump,

Rick Santorum who won 11 states and finished second to Mitt Romney in the

2012 nominating process, Lindsey Graham, a three-term U.S. senator, and

Carly Fiorina, the only woman in the 17-person Republican field.

Supporters of the candidates who won`t make the debate are trying to

put on a brave face in terms of what could be a major blow. One Rick Perry

adviser told "The New York Times" there was an upside to missing the main

event since, quote, "There`s a good chance that the 9:00 p.m. debate stage

is going to be turned into a circus." An adviser to the super PAC for

Bobby Jindal remained defiant, "The donor class will not pick the nominee,

nor will the establishment in Washington, nor a cable network."

Joining me now, Ezra Klein, editor in chief of Vox, Rick Wilson,

Republican media consultant, and Rick Tyler, national spokesperson for Ted

Cruz`s presidential campaign.

Rick Tyler, let me start with you since you`re in the thick of all



All right.

WAGNER: Good to see you.

TYLER: Good to see you, Alex.

WAGNER: Rick Santorum is angry about this. He`s calling on FOX News

to apologize. Do you think his anger is warranted?

TYLER: Well, look, the 5:00 p.m. -- remember 5:00 p.m. on the East

Coast is 8:00 on the West Coast. And 9:00 start for the second debate is

midnight on the West Coast. So, look, the 5:00 -- I think -- you know, the

network has done the best they could. All the networks will be faced with

the same thing.

And I think it`s right that the people who are on the stage now in the

so-called desired debate to be in --

WAGNER: Rick --

TYLER: Not going to be the same people 12 debates from now.

WAGNER: Just to be clear, Rick, the 5:00 p.m. debate is actually 2:00

p.m. on the West Coast.

TYLER: Thank you for correcting me.

WAGNER: I`m sure FOX appreciates the mathematical assist you were

giving, but at the end of the day --

TYLER: Going from the wrong direction.

WAGNER: Rick, respond to that -- 2:00 p.m. is not quite 8:00 p.m.

TYLER: No, it`s not 8:00 p.m., but look, again, it`s -- the polls are

going to change. And people who are in one debate are not going to be on

stage in the other debate, and people are going to drop out. And it will -

- remember, Mitt Romney didn`t even attend the first debate and he went on

to win the nomination.

Look, I think the debates are important. I think they`re important

for people to see and they can see all the candidates at the same time.

But, you know, 17 candidates on the stage is probably a little unwieldy.

WAGNER: Ezra, from an analytic perspective, I mean, this is a hard to

manage, right? As Rick Tyler points, 17 people on the stage is a lot of

people, somehow hey had to call the field. How do -- what do you make of

FOX`s efforts and the result that we have tonight?

EZRA KLEIN, VOX: I don`t think they had a winning position on this.

I don`t think there was one to be very clear. I think that 17 is too many

to have on stage.

Frankly, I think the number they`re going to have is going to be too

many to run an effective debate. You really want is three or four or five.

So, you`re going to have a situation where they need to let everyone in.

But how much time is Chris Christie really going to get in there?

The big problem I think -- I think the reason people are freaked out

about this debate is not actually the fact that some candidates aren`t

making the cut. That is a little bit unusual, but it`s not completely

unheard of.

I think much more of what`s going on is ha the breakdown is not coming

the way people expected. The fact that this debate, this hotly anticipated

clash will have Donald Trump in the center of the stage, because remember,

the way the board is actually set in the candidate polling the highest

actually gets put right there in the center. He`s going to get probably

the most questions.

The fact that he`s going to be right there in the center and you`re

going to have candidates who are really considered marquee players a couple

years ago like Perry, Santorum not even on the stage, that I think is what

is unnerving so many folks in the Republican Party. They`re not sure this

debate is going to represent them in the way they`re hoping to be

represented to the country here at the sort of the starting shot of the

2016 campaign.

WAGNER: Rick Wilson, if you had a horse in this race, which debate

stage would you want him on?


the main debate stage because he`s going to get a ton of eyeballs. And as

we all can acknowledge, Roger Ailes is brilliant at television, and he`s

framing a brilliant television event for that evening.

I think, you know, both Perry and Carly Fiorina are two folks who are

like fan favorites right now who have really, you know, been punching above

their weight class for this year, and there`s a feeling that John Kasich

and Chris Christie are, you know, weighing the book ends here of the stage

but aren`t really the folks that a lot of the folks grassroots want to hear

from in this campaign.

So, I`d rather have them in the big show obviously. There`s a great

risk this becomes the Donald Trump hour of excess.

WAGNER: Rick Tyler, how does Ted Cruz ensure this doesn`t become the

Donald Trump hour of excess?

TYLER: Look, I think there`s a misunderstanding that people are sort

of positing that Donald Trump would be embarrassing to have the center of

the stage. I`d be frankly be more embarrassed to have Bernie Sanders,

socialist, at the center of the stage. But set that aside --

WAGNER: Well, he`s not running -- yes, he`s not running in the

Republican race.

TYLER: No. But, look, we`ve got 17 really very impressive

candidates, very diverse field, and the Democratic Party looks like, you

know, "That `70s Show". And so, I mean, you look at the difference.

So, look, we have a blessing of riches. But I think misunderstanding


WAGNER: Let me interrupt you, Rick -- do you think the whole field

thinks of Donald Trump and the attendant other 16 candidates as a blessing

of riches?

TYLER: I think what the point about Donald Trump is, as you just

alluded to earlier, that Donald Trump is an embarrassment to the Republican

Party, and that is just an indication of the establishment and the

Washington cartel doesn`t understand why Donald Trump is popular in the

first place. He`s getting 26 percent for a reason. He`s getting it

because he`s talking about and highlighting issues American people care

about and talk about and he`s putting action items to those as well.

Senator Cruz does that as well, a little differently than Donald Trump

does. But a lot of -- people are sick of the status quo. They`re sick of

politician whose pontificate and go on and on about all these problems, and

the debt, and the immigration and all this -- and nothing ever happens and

nothing ever changes.

I mean, look at the show Planned Parenthood vote just a couple of days

go. We got to defund Planned Parenthood, but they do nothing about it.

WAGNER: So, is Ted Cruz going to call for a shutdown based on Planned

Parenthood funding on the debate stage?

TYLER: He has called for a shutdown of Planned Parenthood, that`s for

sure, because I don`t think anybody, even pro-choice people could look at

these videos and think that that represents their values.

And we have the show vote we put on the U.S. Senate. But Donald -- to

the point, Donald Trump is talking about things and issues that people care

about and they`re sending the rest of the Republican field a clear message,

is talk about these issues and give us your answer to these issues and stop

trying the have it both ways.

WAGNER: I would push back.


WAGNER: Ezra, you have written about this. People are starting --

people are taking Donald Trump seriously. You look at the polling. He has

broad support. We`re going to have much more breakdown on that polling

later on the show.

And you wrote about this on Vox. Donald Trump is not to be taken


KLEIN: There is no candidate in the Republican field polling higher

than Donald Trump and none polling lower either. If you look at the

candidate that the most Republicans say they would absolutely not want as

their nominee it is also Donald Trump.

I agree with Rick on something -- Donald Trump is addressing important

issues that people feel very strongly about. The issues he`s addressing, a

lot of people feel vehemently that what he is saying is noxious and


And it is entirely possible for a candidate to be currently leading

the Republican field with 26 percent of the vote, which is nevertheless a

small minority of the Republican Party and be a huge embarrassment and

problem to the Republican Party.

Yes, I absolutely agree that that Donald Trump is tapping into

something real. I really think people should be taking what he`s saying

seriously and take seriously the idea that he represents a portion of the


But the portion he represents, the things he`s going out there saying,

it is an embarrassment, and it`s the reason you see tons and tons and tons

of Republican commentators tearing their hair out over this.

There`s a great "National Journal" profile of Donald Trump, and the

writer just followed him around for a while and he really went out looking

to take what Donald Trump is saying and doing seriously. And he couldn`t

find really any evidence of a political platform there. There`s not a tax

plan, there`s not an economic plan. Trump`s run is a run of ego, but it`s

also a run of channeling the things people are most frustrated and angry


And that`s really how you tip into demagoguery very quickly. And I

think it`s going to be very bad for the Republican Party even if it is

representing --


WAGNER: Rick Wilson, let me go to you. If you are Carly Fiorina, if

you are Bobby Jindal, if you are Scott Walker, what is your advice on

breaking through at this point?

WILSON: Listen, everybody has got a long time to go and a long time

to breathe. At this point in `07, my friend Rudy Giuliani was way up the

field and everybody thought he was inevitable. Hillary was inevitable.

These are things that are going to -- there are going to be a lot of

changes. The amplitude and frequency of the changes of the front-runner in

this -- in this political environment is going to surprise people. And

Donald Trump will fade eventually. The people that on the Republican side

who have been swinging at him I think will get some credit for it down the

line because they`re going to show strength against a guy who is eventually

going to be regarded -- it`s one thing to be the strong man, but it tips

over to being the bully very quickly.

I think Trump`s brand has a little time left on it. I still believe

that this we`re sort of in self reinforcing news cycle where Trump gets

coverage because he says something outrageous. Therefore, we get more news


And there are a few candidates in the field, and you, Rick, God love

you guys, you can keep throwing that alligator meat all day long. It`s

just going to eat you last.

This is not a guy that -- Trump is not a guy who`s running on a

political platform. It`s purely ego. It`s a giant con. The issues he

selected are not illegitimate. They are things that people are

legitimately angry about, but he`s playing people.

WAGNER: It may be a giant con. We`ll see if it is a long con.

Ezra Klein, Rick Wilson and Rick Tyler, thank you all for your time.

TYLER: Thank you.

WAGNER: Still to come, could we be facing a government shutdown this

fall over funding Planned Parenthood?

Plus, the unsinkable Donald Trump, more on why against all odds he

seems to be the untouchable candidate.

And later, for those of us who struggle with the summer heat because

it means frigid temperatures in the office, a little vindication this week.

I`ll tell you why, just ahead.


WAGNER: Jeb Bush`s campaign is frantically playing defense tonight

after an offhanded remark at the Southern Baptist Convention landed him in

trouble. Earlier today, Bush was answering a question about Planned

Parenthood, calling for it to be fully defunded when he said this --


JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You could take dollar for

dollar -- although I`m not sure we need a half billion dollars for women`s

health issues, but if you took dollar for dollar, there are many

extraordinarily fine organizations, community health organizations that

exist, federally sponsored community health organizations to provide

quality care for women on a wide variety of issues.


WAGNER: I`m not sure we need half a billion for women`s health


Those comments met with immediate outrage on Twitter, including from

Hillary Clinton who tweeted, "Jeb Bush, you are absolutely, unequivocally

wrong." Headlines like this from "Politico", "another gift for Dems"

started popping up almost instantaneously.

And then came the damage control, the Bush camp put out a statement,

quote, "With regard to women`s health funding broadly, I misspoke, as there

are countless community health centers, rural clinics and women`s health

organizations that need to be fully funded. I was referring to the hard to

fathom $500 million in federal funding that goes to Planned Parenthood."

They also released a statement from Bush`s former health care

secretary when he was the governor of Florida, a woman, conveniently

enough, who offers a firsthand testimonial on women eats health issues.

Up next, Republicans may see a political windfall in their fight

against Planned Parenthood, but it is not without serious risks.


WAGNER: Senate Republicans may have come up short last night on a

procedural vote to defund Planned Parenthood, but that was just the opening

salvo in a fight that is already starting the take over the presidential

campaign and is increasing the chances of a government shutdown when the

federal budget expires this fall.

Since 18 House conservatives pledged not to pass any new spending

bills that maintain Planned Parenthood funding, three GOP presidential

hopefuls have signaled their support for shutting down the government.

Texas Senator Ted Cruz, the man behind the failed Obamacare shutdown of

2013, Kentucky Senator Rand Paul, looking to reclaim his Tea Party mojo,

and the Republican front runner, Donald Trump.


HUGH HEWITT: Would you support that?

TRUMP: Well, I can tell you this, I would and I was also in support.

If the Republicans stuck together, you could have done it with Obamacare,

also. They left a lot of people that really went in and wanted to do the

job, and you know what? If they stuck together, they would have won that

battle. I think you have to in this case also. Yes.


WAGNER: Already, Planned Parenthood`s funding is poised to be the new

conservative purity test for potential Republican nominees. After the

first debate on Thursday, about half of the candidates head to Atlanta for

the Red State gathering, a conservative conference hosted by Erick

Erickson, founder of the influential Red State blog.

Erickson wrote in a post last week, "If Republicans are not willing to

make this their hill to die on and even see the government shutdown to stop

this, the Republican Party needs to be shut down." Erickson later tweeted

that he intends to ask each candidate at the gathering if they will support

a government shutdown if that`s what it takes to defund Planned Parenthood.

Conservative Republicans who have long had their sights set on Planned

Parenthood seem to see a foolproof opportunity in the undercover videos

purporting to show Planned Parenthood staff discussing the sale of fetal

tissue for medical research, a fifth video was released today and the anti-

abortion group that made them says more are coming.

But the videos don`t actually show any illegal activity and Planned

Parenthood maintains it makes no profit from tissue donation. And if

Republican lawmakers end up boxed into a shutdown fight, they may find they

have overplayed their hand.

Joining me is Terry O`Neill, president of the National Organization

for Women.

So, Terry, it seems to me there are two camps of Republicans, some

like Jeb Bush who say we should defund the organization and others who are

prepared to go the full monty, if you will, and say we need to shut down

the government.

Can you have it both ways? Can you just say in this modern Republican

Party, defund it but not be willing to shut down the government?


Evidently, the Republican leadership entirely has gone onto a crazy train.

I mean, there`s really something scary, Alex, when United States

senators, Mitch McConnell included get into bed with the violent fringe of

the anti-abortion movement. The folks who put out this video are actually

supported and founded by individuals with Operation Rescue which has a long

and sorted history of violent attacks on abortion providers.

WAGNER: Terry, what I don`t understand is the "war on women" line of

argument, if you will, so effective in defeating Republicans in previous

election cycles. You would think that the establishment would do

everything in its power to keep the fringe from bringing this up.

Mitch McConnell initially didn`t want to take a vote on defunding

Planned Parenthood. Now, he`s on board. You saw Jeb Bush today get all

kinds of twisted around in a statement at the Southern Baptist Convention,

ultimately, saying in this garbled way, I am not sure we need half a

billion dollars for women`s health issues, something he`s going to be

clarifying and explaining and presumably apologizing for, for the next

media cycle.

O`NEILL: Yes. Well, one hopes he will be apologizing for it.

Look, Planned Parenthood serves over 2.7 million women, men and young

people every single year. You can`t replicate that. You can`t defund

Planned Parenthood and have anything like a health system that could step

in and provide services to 2.7 million people.

So, a vote against Planned Parenthood was a vote specifically against

women`s health care. That is why my organization is going to be targeting

Senator Kelly Ayotte, Senator Lisa Murkowski, Senator Joe Manchin -- these

are people who hold themselves out in some way in favor of women`s issues.

Nonsense. You voted against Planned Parenthood. We`re going to come

after you. Those individuals are up for re-election in 2016. We`re going

after `em.

WAGNER: Do you think it makes any difference that the Senate

Republicans have tried to use women in their caucus to lead this charge,

trying to soften their image or at least say they`re not completely out of

touch with the female sex?

O`NEILL: Well, I think it makes sense to those men that it would make

sense. Women are not fooled. You know, women know how important Planned

Parenthood is to women`s health care.

One many five women in this country, by one estimate, have used

specifically Planned Parenthood`s services, and there are many other

excellent health care centers that provide the full range of reproductive

health care to women including abortion care. But women throughout this

country, Republican women and independent women and Democratic women love

Planned Parenthood because it provides such excellent services.

So, the men think that they can hide behind the skirts of these women.

That`s not going to work with the women voters. The Republicans are on

track to lose the women`s vote massively.

And, by the way, I think they`re on track to lose the millennial vote

that`s both women and women millennials for decades, for generations.

WAGNER: Thank you, Terry O`Neill, for that. And thanks for your


O`NEILL: Thank you, Alex.

WAGNER: Joining me now is Brian Beutler, senior editor at "The New


Brian, I want to talk about what is shaping up to be another

government shutdown fight. And you have a great piece in "The New

Republic" that went up yesterday night. You get to the nugget of this,

which is Republicans are overplaying their hand and yet, one sort of very

powerful part of their base doesn`t see any cost to political brinkmanship

and government shutdowns, so they keep doing it.

Will they ever learn their lesson?

BRIAN BEUTLER, THE NEW REPUBLIC: Well, I don`t -- I`m not sure, but

it`s really the case that anti-abortion, you know, segment of the

Republican base has been sort of lied to by conservatives who wanted an

issue to beat Democrats over the head with. But the actual material in the

video raises issues that if addressed on a sort of honest level wouldn`t

make a lot of fireworks. Is it right for, you know, Planned Parenthood to

recoup the costs for donating fatal tissue? Should those costs be born by

women who have abortions?

These are issues that might generate some controversy, but not at the

level that we`ve seen.

What, you know, Republican base, what conservative activists have fed

to pro-life people is that Planned Parenthood is this criminal fetal organ

harvesting organization. If that`s really what you think it is, then even

though there may not be a strong political logic to shutting down the

government in order to stop it, you think there`s some kind of crisis and

maybe this is the only way to wake up the rest of the country to what`s

going on.

The problem is it`s not just what`s going on, and so you can`t build a

real consensus to stop it.

WAGNER: Yes. But, Brian, you know, the fight against Planned

Parenthood has been raging for some time now.


WAGNER: And it boggles the mind that the establishment thinks they

can sort of feed, they can stoke that fire and not get licked by the

flames, that they can sort of -- that they can embrace these disingenuous

edited videos by an undercover organization that may have been acting

outside the law and sort of stoke the indignation around that and not

expect a sort of group of people who have been jonesing basically for the

shutdown of Planned Parenthood to try to push it to its furthest limit

using whatever levers of power they have, which we`ve seen time and time

again is shutting down the government.

BEUTLER: Right. And so, when the video started coming out, you had

conservative activists, you had pro-life groups immediately spinning this

into an idea that you had something ghoulish and awful happening at Planned

Parenthood, and it was systemic, and that the only way to stop it was to

shut down Planned Parenthood.

And at that point, I feel like the Republican leadership, the leaders

of the Republican Party had a basic choice. They could either say, no,

that`s not what`s happening in these videos and as much as we don`t like

it, abortion is legal in this country. And as it is legal, fetal tissue

donation is something we think should be legal or should not be legal. And

if we`re going to debate this, we`re going to debate it on those terms.

Instead, they felt either that their jobs would be put at risk if they

didn`t confront this head-on or that it will be, you know, worth it to fold

that segment of their electorate back in now that the Republican primaries

are in full swing. And so, they didn`t stop it.

And, you know, if they were willing to negotiate a full budget with

Democrats where they could sort of horse trade at the margins over issues

that include funding for women`s health care, they might be even able to

provide a minor victory for anti-abortion causes.

But instead what they`re doing is demanding everything and saying

we`re going to fund the government at current levels and we want to do it

with a rider that says no more funding for Planned Parenthood and that

can`t pass. If that`s the only thing they`re willing to offer, then the

only way this ends is with a government shutdown.

WAGNER: And haven`t we heard that refrain before?

Brian Beutler, always good to see you. Thanks for your time.

BEUTLER: You, too. Thanks.

WAGNER: Up next, the realist struggle on the presidential campaign

trail, getting pranked. We will have some of the best ones so far coming



WAGNER: Republican front-runner Donald Trump is attacking again,

this time he`s angry at a group of college students he says are fraudsters

and liars. And when you hear about the tomfoolery you might just agree

that he has reason to be upset.

The art of the campaign prank is as old as campaigns themselves.

Recall in 2008 when Mitt Romney`s own children called him pretending to be

Arnold Schwarzenegger.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First, I would like to just get to know you.

ROMNEY: Well, we`ve had the chance...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to ask you a bunch of questions and I want

to have them answered immediately.

ROMNEY: Go right ahead and shoot.


WAGNER: Or when two Canadian deejays fooled Sarah Palin into thinking

they were the French president Nicolas Sarkozy.



forward to working with you and getting to meet you personally and your

beautiful wife. Oh my goodness. You`ve added a lot of energy to your

country even with that beautiful family of yours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much. You know, my wife Carla

would love to meet you even though she was a bit jealous that I was

supposed to speak to you today.


WAGNER: Witness the pranks pulled on Governor Scott Walker this year

alone. He tried to eat a Philly cheesesteak in piece while two men stood

behind him holding up signs reading Scott Walker sniffs his own poop and

Scott Walker lives inside my butt.

Walker tried to pose with people holding a supportive sign, only to

have those people turn the side over to reveal a fake check from the Koch


Which brings us to Donald Trump who has never had a fully impenetrable

media team, something Ali G. made abundantly clear.

SASHA BARON COHEN, ACTOR/COMEDIAN: My idea is to come out with just

like these ice cream gloves that make the ice cream not go on your hands

and make it all sticky and also keep your hands warm when you is eating the

ice cream. Is you in or is you in?

DONALD TRUMP, REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER: Well, it sounds like a good idea

and I hope you make a lot of money.

Good luck, folks. It`s been nice seeing you. You take care of



WAGNER: this time a picture appeared online yesterday of a beaming

Trump with a good of students under the headline The Crimson endorses Trump

for president.

Sadly for Donald Trump at least, the same Harvard newspaper did on

such thing. Instead, the elaborate ruse was most likely part of a rivalry

between the Harvard student newspaper and the university`s humor magazine

The Lampoon.

Maybe next time.



CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR; The stunning news, although we`ve

kind of gotten used to it in the last week or two, Donald Trump the

billionaire developer is going to be front and center in the prime seat as

the leader, the front-runner at this point, for the Republican presidential



WAGNER: Many in the media, including Fox News` Chris Wallace, have at

times seemed incredulous that Donald Trump is the Republican presidential

front-runner, but he is.

Given that, there is an intense effort under way to determine why so

many Republicans are rallying behind a candidate who holds positions that

would seem to be anathema to so many Republicans.

Trump has called himself pro choice. He has endorsed single payer

health care, he has praised Hillary Clinton`s performance as secretary of

state and he has donated to Democrats, and that`s just for starters.

Yet he is dominating the Republican field decisively. One new poll

showed Trump leading among Republican who are rich, poor, old, young, male

and female as well as both college grads and those without a degree.

Last night, Fox aired a focus group from New Hampshire that offered a

little insight into Trump`s appeal.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am against the fact that they are saying that

low information voters -- I am against...

UNIENTIFIED MALE: Do your research, do your homework...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ...insulting my intelligence because I am for



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He donated to Hillary. He`s donated to Schumer...



WAGNER: Trump supporters in Iowa told GQ magazine that they, quote,


that Trump won`t back down and that he, quote, won`t take no stuff from


Just this hour Trump was asked by Bill O`Reilly if he was shocked at

all by how good his poll numbers are?


TRUMP: Well, the poll numbers are not only good, I mean, they`re

phenomenal. We just got numbers from South Carolina which are through the

roof, Iowa, New Hampshire, not only the national numbers. So, I`m very

honored by it.

But what it really shows is that people are tired of incompetence.

They don`t want incompetent politicians running our country.


WAGNER: Joining me is Jonathan Chait, columnist New York Magazine and

Joshua Green senior -- senior Trump correspondent at Bloomberg politics.

That`s not a real beat. But it is.

JOSHUA GREEN, BLOOMBERG: I got a promotion.

WAGNER: Yeah, exactly.

Jonathan, let me start with you first. In terms of deciphering

Trump`s appeal, I feel like you get closest to it. And I`ll quote from

your piece. Trump`s affect supplies his appeal, you write. He is strong,

mad and above all unapologetic in a world that demands he apologize. He`s

not the spokesman for an idea at all, but the representation of

undifferentiated resentment. The resentment is the whole point. It is the

beginning and end for his candidacy.

JONATHAN CHAIT, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: I think that`s right. And it`s

useful for us to go back and look at how Republicans regarded these waves

of rage that were springing up from the base since Obama became president.

And so many of them thought it was ideological, and they thought the answer

was, well, we have to be against health care, and we have to be against cap

and trade, and we have to be against everything. We have to be against the

export/import bank.

But I think trump is showing that you just have to be kind of an angry


to really display the feelings that they have in the Obama era, or at least

a lot of them, that they don`t really care about the issues at all. They

just want someone who acts the way that they feel, and he`s doing that.

WAGNER: Yeah, Josh, and you had a series of tweets that sort of broke

down important polling on Trump and how Republican voters feel. And one in

particular to Jonathan`s point, the angry electorate. Moderate Republicans

in the new

Bloomberg Politics poll only narrowly favor Jeb Bush 20 percent, over Trump

19 percent. I`m assuming that`s in the margin of error. I mean,

effectively moderates are going equally for Trump as they are for Bush.

GREEN: Yeah, it is absolutely remarkable. If you look into the cross

tabs of the new Bloomberg poll, not only does Trump have a huge lead in the

Republican field generally, but he has a tremendously powerful appeal to

every segment of the Republican Party.

And I agree with John. I think the reason is that Trump has become a

vessel for the maximal expression of rage and outrage at not only

Republican leaders and President Obama, but pretty much the whole political

institution, the whole political world including shows like this one and

people like me and you, and Trump more effectively conveys that anger than

anybody else out there.

And I think that`s just the key to his appeal and it explains

everything and it`s a huge, huge danger for the Republican Party.

WAGNER: There seemed to be a lot of hypocrisies embedded in his

candidacy, Jonathan, but one that hasn`t been discussed as much as others

is the idea that the foundation of his message is this idea that America

sucks, that it`s emblazoned on his trucker cap that he wears around that

says make America great again. The presumption being that America has

fallen, that the good times are not what we`re experiencing right now.

And I think about that message, and if the current president offered

even close to that kind of message, they would ask for his impeachment. I

mean, I remember when Michelle Obama said at one point this is one of the

first times I`ve been truly proud of my country. I am paraphrasing, and

was excoriated for that comment.

And yet here you have someone on the Republican side of the aisle who

is saying over and over and over again, the rest of the world hates us,

America is in the dumps.

CHAIT: That`s right. Although I think the difference is that Obama

has an idea that America is better than it used to be, that America is

flawed and America used to be more flawed and things are getting better.

But that`s offensive to some elements of the right who see it as a

repudiation of American history, to be so forthright about the flaws in our


Whereas Trump has the conservative idea that, yes, we`re terrible, but


used to be great. So, he really loves America because he doesn`t love

America now, but he loves America in some past time, the 1950s maybe.

So, to them that shows he actually does love America, just not what

Obama has done to it. But, your point about hypocrisy is spot on.

WAGNER: Well, and to that end, Josh, I mean, the evangelical support

for Trump, Trump who has said he never seeks forgiveness from god is

winning the born-again Christian vote. Just explain that to me if you can.

GREEN: I think it goes back to Trump`s affect, as John said.

And I think also to give Trump some credit here, and to speak to that

kind of angry woman in the focus group who didn`t like the idea of being

condescended to. Trump does speak some real truths about politics. He

calls the other Republicans puppets for going and prostrating themselves

before the Koch brothers. I think that`s something that extends to

Democrats and to candidates like Hillary Clinton

as well who are out there grubbing for money and doing all sorts of things

that ordinary Americans find offensive and think are wrong.

I mean, Trump is articulating something that has a broader appeal. I

think that Trump, if you`ll pardon the phrase, what a lot of voters claim

to be their big issues like evangelicals, born again Christians, the one

thing they can agree on is that Trump is speaking for them, at least right


WAGNER: Well, and I think they can agree there`s a pronounced

distaste for the Democratic Party. And I do think, Jonathan, if there`s a

chink in the Trump armor, it may be his past support for people like

Hillary Clinton, the fact that he`s donated to Democrats.

Today, on Bloomberg, Trump said that he was a fan of Paul Volcker and

the Volcker rule. I mean, those are progressive -- that`s progressive

economic policy. And I feel like, you know, maybe that`s an area where a

fellow Republicans can try

and find a way in?

CHAIT: Well, there are a lot of chinks in Trump`s armor. And I think


will go down eventually. But every day he does something more to deviate

from Republican Party doctrine than Scott Walker has done in his entire

life put together. So, you -- they`re sitting there with their head in

their hands saying what wrong with this party that they can`t see these

problems with this man.

I think they`ll find a way to beat him or I think he`ll find a way to

destroy himself.

But look, none of us thought he would be at this point in the first

place. So, we have to be a little more humble about our confident

predictions that he`s going to be destroyed, because no one expected Trump

to be in this position today.

WAGNER: Yeah, and I know Josh, you were shaking your head when I was

talked about Volcker being progressive economics. We won`t get into that

as a senior Trump correspondent, I know you`re focused more on Trump than

the economy.

But, yeah, I mean, to Jonathan`s point, Trump has trumped the media on

all this. The pontificators and even members of his own party, nobody

knows where we go from here.

GREEN: He has. But I do think that that may start to change on

Thursday night when voters see him in the context, not as truth telling

celebrity reality guy but as standard bearer for the Republican Party. I

think if they mentally begin to associate Donald Trump as a Republican

presidential candidate, that`s probably bad for the Republican Party,

because he`s calling Mexican`s rapists.

But I think it`s also bad for Trump in the sense that people will

begin to think, OK, well, we`re going to hold him up to the same kind of

scrutiny that we hold other candidates to. And that`s a hurdle I think

Trump might have a difficult time clearing.

WAGNER: The unthinkable, unsinkable Donald Trump.

Jonathan Chait, Josh Green, thanks for joining me guys.

CHAIT: Thank you, Alex.

GREEN: Thanks.

WAGNER: Up next, Chris Christie gets candid at a campaign stop, maybe

a little too candid. Stay with us.


WAGNER: Here is how presidential hopeful governor Chris Christie

advocated compromise to a room full of diners in New Hampshire this




birth control, and not just the rhythm method, okay?

So, you know, my church has a teaching against birth control. Does

that make me an awful Catholic?


WAGNER: And if you`re wondering how the fine folks at Blake`s

Restaurant and Creamery felt hearing that at 9:30 this morning, take a look

at this guy`s reaction.


CHRISTIE: I`m a Catholic. But I`ve used birth control, and not just

the rhythm method, okay?

So, you know, my church has a teaching against birth control. Does

that make me an awful Catholic?


WAGNER: We`ll be right back.


WAGNER: It was 90 degrees in New York City today and like most days

this summer, I was freezing at work. I am not the only woman who tends to

find office

temperatures just on this side of arctic.

And finally, I know why that is. A new study lays out the case that

most office temperatures are based on an outdated model designed to

accommodate the

bodies of men, men from the 1960s, men who may have looked like this.

To help fix this problem, the study suggests that office buildings,

quote, reduce gender discriminating bias in thermal comfort. Or, in other

words, come up with another formula that doesn`t force ladies to wear leg

warmers in August.

Here is NBC`s Jenna Wolfe with more.


JENNA WOLFE, NBC CORREPSONDENT: You need long sleeves, a blanket and

a blazer.


UNIDENITFIED FEMALE: It can be 100 degrees outside and it feels like

the north pole in here.

WOLFE: This stays at your desk all through out the summer.


UNIDENITIFIED FEMALE: Sometimes there`s some shivering going on.

WOLFE: It turns out that an old formula may be to blame for the

tussle over office temperatures. A new study from the nature climate

change journal says the

temperatures in many office buildings are determined by an outdated and

inaccurate model developed in the 1960s and based on the resting metabolic

rate of a 154-pound 40-year-old man.

Fast forward more than a half a century, half of the workforce is

female. But those thermostats haven`t budged.

The study does confirm that the great air conditioning debate isn`t

just in your head finding that in general females prefer a higher room

temperatures than

males in home and office situations. That`s a balmy 77 degrees for a

woman, compared to a cool 71.6 for men.



basil metabolic rates so they burn off energy a lot slower. They actually

give off less heat than men so they tend to be colder.

WOLFE: Another slightly less scientific factor?

NAMIAPARAMPIL: Women tend to wear skirts, so maybe they have their

legs bare

and cold, their arms might be out. Men tend to wear more layers. They

tend to wear jackets or suits. If you add all these things together, then

it`s much more likely that that difference between men and women is going

to be more pronounced.

WOLFE: It`s a battle of the sexes that isn`t likely to end any time



WAGNER: That was Jenna Wolfe reporting. We`ll talk more about the

thermostat gender divide. And why setting temperatures at warmer levels is

better for all of us coming up next.


HAYES: Joining me now is Mike Pesca, host of Slate`s daily podcast,

The Gist.

All right, Mike, so we`re talking about gender biases in office

temperature. I have a blanket over my legs right now. This dress is made

of scuba diving material and I`m still cold. Do you think there is a

defense for freezing office temperatures.

MIKE PESCA, THE GIST: I thought that blanket was a tribute to Mr.

Potter and It`s a Wonderful Life. I have no idea.

Yeah, of course there is a defense, which is if someone is cold, they


bundle up, if someone is hot, they`re going to be sweating over your desk.

HAYES: Well, but OK, this is Jonathan Chait makes the point that the

gender that gets colder is able to wear less in the summer while the gender

that generally gets warmer is expected to wear the same business attire

year around.

You can take off the jacket.

PESCA: Right.

HAYES: And I`m just saying, the compensation that women need to make

on this point is pretty extreme versus what men would have to do to just

get a little bit more comfortable.

Women are dressed like burritos, quite literally swathing themselves

tightly in woven blankets, leg warmers and the like.

PESCA: It`s like the Shackelton exhibition has washed up in the shore

of the offices of America. The Snuggies are in full force.


PESCA: However, the study that it`s based on is ridiculous because


based on the fact that in 1960 it was a man`s body. But we have all gotten

so much

fatter since 1960, the average weight of an American male is 196, and the

average weight of American female...

WAGNER: You are making the BMI argument.

PESCA: Yeah, it doesn`t matter if it was based in whatever it was

going on in 1960. We`re all a little sweatier now.

Point two, do you think they`re really -- do you really think that

they set the thermostat because of a study in 1960?

WAGNER: I think there`s absolutely metrics that go around thinking

this is the comfortable temperature for a workplace environment.

I would say, I`m not a scientist, though I play one on television, and


feel like it`s not just BMI, metabolic rate, there are various sort of like

scientific metrics in the human body that determine one`s metabolism and

also what temperature at which one is most comfortable.

So, I can`t argue with you on the increasing obesity of the American

workforce. I can argue that in 1950 women made up 29.6 of the American

workforce. In 2014, 46.9 percent.

Given the fact that they`re having the workforce, setting aside

metabolism, shouldn`t their happiness and comfort be taken more into


PESCA: I would nudge that thermostat up half a degree. And I think I

could sell it to all of the sexist men who want coldness by saying, don`t

you just want a little less complaining..

WAGNER: Well, OK, there`s that.

There`s also the benefits to the environment in an age when we`re

trying to be a little bit more...

PESCA: That is overstated.

WAGNER: You don`t think we should each do our own little part?

PESCA: Air conditioning doesn`t really -- heating is actually worse.

So, the other side of this story is that if women like it a little hotter

that means in the winter it should be a little hotter also.

WAGNER: Maybe we can compromise, Pesca.

PESCA: But heating in the winter causes much more environmental

impact than cooling...

WAGNER: Maybe we women can have it a little cooler in the winter and

a little warmer in the summer and we can meet in middle grounds.

PESCA: We can meet over a gas fire and sing do wop songs like in


WAGNER: I will bring in a jacket my friends.

Mike Pesca in a jacket -- yeah, exactly, I have leg warmers on at this

moment. I don`t really, but it`s good for the conversation.

Mike Pesca, always good to see you. Thank you for joining me in

reaching this beautiful compromise.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts now.

Good evening, Rachel.




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