updated 8/6/2015 9:00:33 AM ET 2015-08-06T13:00:33

Date: August 5, 2015
Guest: Rudy Giuliani, Charlie Black, Steve McMahon, Barbara Boxer, Susan
Page, Sabrina Siddiqui, Jason Johnson

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: It`s the time for politics.

Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington, on my way tonight to
the center of the storm, Cleveland, Ohio, home of the Indians, the Browns,
and tomorrow night`s huge debate of 10 wannabe presidents of the United

And whatever anyone says now, it`s going to be a contest. We won`t
know the results to this latest ever TV reality show goes live in living,
breathing color, with everyone competing, including the questioners.
Everyone wants to look good tomorrow night. Everyone will be thrilled to
see their rivals look bad. And nothing at all is going to stop it from
being a zero sum game.

If Trump wins, the others lose. If Trump blow up, there are nine
others and seven waiting at the little kids` table to grab for the pieces.
Talk about extreme combat.

Can Trump trump, or is he a Roman candle everyone else is just waiting
to see die?

Rudy Giuliani, of course, was mayor of New York and a presidential
candidate himself. And that`s my question to you. Is he a Roman candle,
Donald Trump, or is he going to stay the distance and actually become a
contender next spring?

RUDY GIULIANI (R), FMR. NEW YORK MAYOR: Well, first of all, he`s not
a Roman candle. This is a very smart guy. This is a person who is media-
savvy in ways that some of the other candidates aren`t. And he`s a lot
more substantive than you realize -- I know Donald 25 years -- meaning he
understands a lot of the world issues with a lot more depth than you
probably realize. So we might have a little bit of a Ronald Reagan here, a
guy they underestimate.

And in my particular case, I`m personal friends with, you know, five
or six of them, and I have a hard time deciding who I`d like to see be
president, and I`m probably going to take a little while. But I expect
Donald Trump is going to do pretty darn well tomorrow night.

MATTHEWS: Well, is he or is he not afraid of Megyn Kelly?


GIULIANI: That`s...

MATTHEWS: I need to know! This is all over the tabs up there.

GIULIANI: That story is -- I have to tell you, Chris, that story was
so false. I never talked to Roger about it. Never talked to Donald about
it. Somebody made it up.

I talked to him about it afterwards, after I got the call -- you know

GIULIANI: ... but he did not call me to ask me anything like that.
And I would never call Roger to ask him anything like that.

MATTHEWS: How about the other Roger?

GIULIANI: Which Roger?

MATTHEWS: Roger Stone. Was there anybody else involved in pushing
this story?

GIULIANI: Nobody -- nobody -- nobody has asked me -- oh, who put the
story out? I don`t know. Probably some jerk. But...


MATTHEWS: They now have a name for themselves, jerk! Anyway, thank

GIULIANI: Well, how about liar?


GIULIANI: OK, good. Let me -- let me ask you about this -- this --
this thing about New York because all of us -- I grew up in Philly, of
course, which always competes with New York and loses a lot, but competes.
And New York`s the Big Apple, and it`s loud. People are big. You got
Jackie Gleason, the image of New York. You`ve got -- when you ran the last
time for president, I thought, Well, there`s an anti-New York thing going.
Now I look at Trump, who`s like Mr. Big Apple, loud, bragaddocio, I`m the
boss, I`m the smartest, I`m the best-looking, I`m the richest and -- you
know, it`s almost like Muhammad Ali talking, and yet it seems to work.

Why has the country changed so much? And the -- remember the --
remember Barry Goldwater was going to saw off New York and get it out of
the country?

GIULIANI: Yes, yes, yes. I know. I know.

MATTHEWS: What`s going on with the New York attitude now? It seems
to be selling when it didn`t before.

GIULIANI: Well, you know, I can say one thing. I thought September
11 changed the attitude of a lot of people toward New York. I found that,
at least, in my -- you know, traveled a lot of America before and plenty
more after. And after September 11, people`s attitude towards New York, I
think, changed a little.

Second, I think people are desperate for clear-talking, tough, you
know, leadership. I think they`re even willing to disagree with somebody
if the person would just be straight and honest with them. And you know, I
think in that way, Donald has kind of grabbed -- he`s grabbed that and...

MATTHEWS: Yes, and he`s not the first one because Christie tried to
go for that, and of course, he got messed up with the bridge story, of
course. We know that. But he was going for that, too, the tough-talking -
- Excuse me, Gail, it`s none of your business, that kind of talk.

GIULIANI: Well, maybe there wouldn`t be Trump if Christie hadn`t had
the "bridge-gate" thing. You`re absolutely right. And don`t count
Christie out. I mean, Christie -- and tomorrow night, if we`re talking
about who is the best debater on the stage, I mean, Bush is going to be
very substantive. He`s going to be very good. Rubio is going to be smart
as heck.

But Christie is about as good a debater as you`re going to find. And
remember, he`s a trial lawyer, which gives him a great advantage. So I
would not count him out.

MATTHEWS: Yes, well, let`s talk about your party because you are a
Republican, always have been, and yet the party has not always been in
agreement with you. Now, we`ve gotten the same-sex thing behind us now.
The abortion issue`s always going to be a moral and political fight, and
religious fight. It`s not going away.

But I`m looking at the Republican platform here. Your party hasn`t
even changed. I mean, look at this. "We reaffirm our support of a
constitutional amendment defining marriage as the union" -- this is the
weird part -- "of one man and one woman."

It`s very strange the way they word that, but...


MATTHEWS: I know, what are they talking about? LDS, I don`t know
what they are -- but why in the world does your party want to stick with
something that`s now constitutionally protected, the right to -- whether
people like it or not, it`s constitutionally protected, same-sex marriage.

Why do you stick with it? What`s your party up to here?

GIULIANI: I`m not the right one to ask because those portions of the
platform I never paid any attention to. I`m a Republican because of
national security and because of financial conservatism. I`m a very
conservative Republican on finance, on economics, on low taxes. And I`m a
hawk, and proud to be.

MATTHEWS: I certainly know that part, Mr. Mayor.

GIULIANI: And proud to be one because I think America needs to be the
policeman of the world. Otherwise, China moves in, Iran moves in. I see
Iran developing an empire, a Persian empire in the Middle East. And I see
Saudi Arabia having to react to that.

Those are the reasons I`m a Republican. To me, these are bigger

On the social issues, you know -- you know it`s one of the reasons I
couldn`t win when I tried, and I haven`t run again because I can`t get past
the first litmus test, which is -- I`m against abortion personally, as a
Catholic, but I feel a woman has to make that decision. I don`t think it`s
my decision to make.

I am in favor of gay marriage. My name is on the brief in the Supreme
Court that -- in the case that was successfully won. And on immigration,
although I think I`d be the toughest on stopping people at the border, I
also believe that at the end of the road, if they`re good people and they
do the stuff they`re supposed to do, they should become citizens.


GIULIANI: But we should end the illegal part of their coming in. If
we could ever do both those things, we`d accomplish what Ronald Reagan and
your boss wanted to accomplish...

MATTHEWS: Yes, that was a good -- that was a good bill, if they`d
ever enforced the darn thing.

GIULIANI: ... years ago.


MATTHEWS: That was a good bill. Simpson-Mazzoli was a good bill.

GIULIANI: If they...

MATTHEWS: Let me as you about -- let`s have some fun here, OK? We
have some fun here, right?


MATTHEWS: First of all, sanctuary cities -- they`ll be arguing about
all this with you. Anyway, the country loves a good New York showman, as I
said. It does now anyway. A few years ago, Donald Trump tackled Vince
McMahon at WWE`s "Wrestlemania."


MATTHEWS: And in 2000, you made an appearance with Trump as part of a
mayor`s roast.


MATTHEWS: We got to bring it back.



DONALD TRUMP, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: You know, you`re really beautiful.
And a woman that looks like that has to have her own special scent.

GIULIANI: Oh, thank you. Maybe you could tell me what you think of
this scent.

TRUMP: I like that!



GIULIANI: You know -- you know...

MATTHEWS: That may be the reason you didn`t get the nomination
before, but that is certainly -- it`s timely to bring that out! We didn`t
show the rest of it, by the way. It got a little gross there, but...


GIULIANI: The reality is, they used that one against me in South
Carolina. So Trump better watch out. And that was -- that was one of the
things I really liked to do. I think I`m a pretty darn good actor...


GIULIANI: ... trying to show off to the press.

MATTHEWS: Too good, it might be said. Let me ask you about this
thing. How does your party -- and you`re a pol. How does your party go
from this red hot, We like Trump, at least now, to going back to the more
established, really establishment Bush family come the end of this fight
here? I mean, how do you go from red hot to, OK, we`ll go with the usual

GIULIANI: We`ve done it before, right? We did Buchanan and then we
went to Bush, right?


GIULIANI: I mean, we`ve had this happen before. Then in...

MATTHEWS: Has it ever worked?


GIULIANI: Well, it worked that time. And that`s the time you --
that`s the time you...


GIULIANI: ... he won. Look, you got a lot of people in it. You got
a lot of good people in it. I know some of them really, really well. I`d
like to get to know Walker and Kasich better, although I like both of them
very much. The other group I`m much friendlier with.


GIULIANI: Rand Paul is a little too libertarian for me.


GIULIANI: And Cruz -- maybe he`s trying it a little too fast. But
most of the rest of them, I have no problem with. And I -- so far, I

MATTHEWS: Wait a minute. You got a problem. Don`t kid me, Mayor.
You wouldn`t back Mike Huckabee for two seconds. Come on!

GIULIANI: I have...

MATTHEWS: Mike Huckabee?

GIULIANI: I happen -- look, Mike Huckabee is very right-wing, the way
some of the others are. But as a person, I happen to like Mike maybe, you
know, more than most. I mean, he`s a -- I ran against him, got to know him
really well during the debates. And he`s an honest man. So I could -- I
could -- I could certainly live with that. But I think it`s going to be
Bush or Trump or one of those guys at the top...

MATTHEWS: Trump, really? You think Trump can win the nomination?

GIULIANI: I think you better...

MATTHEWS: He can win?

GIULIANI: I think you better watch out.

MATTHEWS: No, but you just said you think it`s going to be Trump or

GIULIANI: No, I was going to -- I was going to add, Trump, Bush,
Rubio, maybe Christie long shot, Kasich long shot, Walker more than a long
shot. It`s in that...


GIULIANI: It`s that group, and I wouldn`t...

MATTHEWS: I think Donald Trump`s going to be proud to hear what you
just said. You put him in the contenders circle.

GIULIANI: But I -- but -- but I...

MATTHEWS: I don`t know.

GIULIANI: I think he`s going to be there until, you know, they get
deep into it, and then nobody knows what happens. If...

MATTHEWS: OK, last question. Who are you rooting for tomorrow night?

GIULIANI: Oh, I`m rooting for a -- I`m rooting for a great debate,
you know, one in -- one in which we get a lot of attention for all these
candidates. And I got too many -- I got too many friends here to...


GIULIANI: That`s why -- that`s why I declined doing all commentary
after the debate. I`m afraid I`ll insult one of my friends.

MATTHEWS: OK, well...

GIULIANI: You know, if some guy makes a big -- if some guys makes
big mistake, I don`t want to be the first one to say, Boy, that was the
dumbest thing I ever heard.

MATTHEWS: OK, well, if you change your mind...

GIULIANI: And I`m too honest -- I`m too honest not to do that.


MATTHEWS: Well, Mayor, we`d love to have you on tomorrow night, if
you change your mind and decide to get cruel.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, thank you, Rudy Giuliani.

And a reminder we are going to Cleveland for tomorrow`s debate. We`re
going to have two hours of coverage here on MSNBC at 7:00 Eastern. Then
we`ll be back at 11:00 Eastern all the way through, a lot of debate cover
right until 1:00 in the morning.

Coming up, we`re going to talk to two pros, real professionals, about
how you get the candidate ready for tomorrow night`s debate. How do you
take on the Trump man? Big question for all four guys with the best shot
to be president -- Bush, Walker, Rubio and Kasich. Same list I think the
mayor just had. How do you prepare to take the stage against an outrageous
showman like Donald Trump?

Plus, President Obama`s biggest move yet as he sells his nuclear deal
with Iran, and this time, he borrowed a page from President John F. Kennedy
to make his push.

And inside the new and more aggressive campaign of Hillary Clinton.
It`s getting tough and she`s getting tough. She`s turning up the heat on
her Republican rivals, calling them out by name over immigration, voting
rights and women`s health, issues she thinks could help her win in 2016.

And the do`s and don`ts of debate. We`ve got five rules to live by
for the Republican candidates as they take that debate stage tomorrow

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.



GOV. RICK PERRY (R-TX), PRES. CANDIDATE: I`m just saying you referred
to individual mandates, my friend.

You`ve raised that before, Rick. And...


PERRY: It was true then...

ROMNEY: No, no.

PERRY: ... and it`s true now.

ROMNEY: Right, I`ll -- I`ll tell you what -- 10,000 bucks, $10,000

PERRY: I`m not in the betting business, but...


PERRY: But I`ll show you the book.


MATTHEWS: Well, that was a classic moment between Mitt Romney and
Rick Perry in the last Republican primary cycle.

Be sure to join us tomorrow night for full coverage live from
Cleveland of both the happy hour and primetime debates. HARDBALL will have
full pre-game and analysis from 7:00 to 9:00 PM Eastern, plus a second live
edition from 11:00 PM to 1:00 in the morning, all tomorrow.

And we`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. All eyes and ears will be
focused on Donald Trump in tomorrow night`s debate. So just how should his
opponents take him on? Do you attack him or take the defensive crouch
against this Goliath? Well, trump says he`s not going to go after his
nearest competitors, like Jeb Bush or Scott Walker. Let`s watch this pre-


that. I`m not looking to hurt anybody. I`m not looking to embarrass
anybody. If I have to bring up deficiencies, I`ll bring up deficiencies.
But certainly, I`m not looking to do that. I`d rather go straight down the
middle. You don`t know what`s going to happen.


MATTHEWS: Well, there will be 10 debaters on that stage, and some may
wish they had a chair and a whip to handle Donald Trump because he`s the
lion in the room.

Joining me right now are two veteran strategists who have themselves
guided Republicans and Democrats through the political debates. Charlie
Black advised Ronald Reagan, both George Herbert and George W. Bush, and
John McCain and Mitt Romney, all of them. Steve McMahon has worked with
Senator Ted Kennedy and former Democratic presidential candidate Howard

So you guys have had a wealth of experience in this. So would you
have -- is it like a chair and a whip, Charlie, when you`re up against
Donald Trump? How do you keep his distance from you?

CHARLIE BLACK, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I think it`s fine for the
news media to promote Trump and to make the debate all about him...

MATTHEWS: We are doing that.

BLACK: You are, but it`s not about him.

MATTHEWS: It isn`t about him?

BLACK: No, it`s not. He gets the same eight or nine minutes as all
the other candidates.

MATTHEWS: Well, who`s going to get the headline coming out of this

BLACK: You never know, but I do not think it`ll be Donald Trump. I
think it`ll be one of the other guys. All of them need to get better
known, even Jeb Bush. Most people don`t know anything about him unless
they live in Florida. They need to get their backgrounds, their experience
and where they stand on the issues out there. And whoever can do it in a
very distinctive, interesting manner will probably get the headlines.

I believe Trump. He`s not going to be on the attack. He also needs
to stick to the rules, not look like a bully, and he needs to show people
where he stands on some issues that actually make sense. So I...

MATTHEWS: Just to justify the media attention, I just looked at our
poll, 2 percent of the American people don`t have a fixed opinion about
this guy. So the American people have a lot of investment in thinking
about Donald Trump, for whatever reason. He`s far more interesting to most
people than the other candidates.

BLACK: The debate`s a level playing field. He only gets one tenth of
the time, and you need to cover it that way. That`s all I`m saying.

MATTHEWS: OK. Steve McMahon...


MATTHEWS: ... how do you approach this guy if you`re the other guy?

MCMAHON: Well, it depends on whether swinging up or swinging down,

MATTHEWS: OK, well...

MCMAHON: ... or swinging across.

MATTHEWS: ... who`s swinging -- who`s swinging -- who`s swinging down
at Donald Trump?

MCMAHON: Well, you know, even though the poll numbers would suggest
Donald Trump has a commanding lead, it`s 10 points, and Jeb Bush had that
commanding lead just a little while ago. So I`d say Jeb Bush is punching
across or punching down a little bit.

MATTHEWS: Should he punch?

MCMAHON: I think there`s a moment when he could -- he could have a
Sister Souljah moment here. I think a lot of Republicans are scratching
their head like Charlie, wondering what this Donald Trump thing is all
about. He says outrageous things. He gets a lot of attention, and he
shoots to the top of the polls. Somebody has to take this guy out

MATTHEWS: Suppose he says, My wife is Mexican, she`s an American now,
she`s the mother of my children. How dare you call these people rapists?

MCMAHON: That`s exactly what he should do.

MATTHEWS: Will he do that?

MCMAHON: that`s exactly what he should do, and I -- and you know

MATTHEWS: Will he do it?

MCMAHON: I hope for his sake that he does because this campaign is
calling for someone to do that. Donald Trump says outrageous things. He
says bigoted, racist things, and nobody in the Republican Party has the
courage to call him out publicly. And you associate yourself with those

MATTHEWS: That`s a big -- you`re putting your chin out when you do
something like that.

BLACK: Well, some people have. Lindsey Graham has been very tough on
him, but he doesn`t get much coverage because...

MCMAHON: I`m sorry. You`re Lindsey has, and so has Rick Perry.

MATTHEWS: Trump says the reason that Lindsey Graham is not in the top
10 is he took on Trump.

BLACK: Right, well, he went from zero to zero, so...



BLACK: Actually, I don`t believe anybody should take on Trump in the
debate. It`s the first debate. It`s the first act in a multi-act play.
And every one of these guys needs to get better known, educate the people
about who they are, what they`ve done and what they`re for. And if
somebody picks on them, maybe, you know, sometimes a counterpunch is a good
move, but I think you`re likely to see a boring, mostly positive debate.

And if Donald gets off the reservation and butts in on people and goes
over the time limits, he`ll suffer. I don`t think he`ll do it.


MATTHEWS: What I`m reading is that the anchors over there, the
questioners, may get in -- and Bret and Mike -- and Chris Wallace will be
trying to serve up balls to the candidates, so they`ll go after the other
candidates. They`ll ask them a question about each other, something that
forces a fight.

MCMAHON: Right. That`s exactly what they are going to do. And they
have to do that, because, after all, they`re all about ratings, just like
everybody else is.

Donald Trump is trying to rewrite the rules of the debate. And he`s
basically saying, now that I`m in the lead, I don`t want to do anything to
upset the apple cart. So I`m not going to punch these guys. I`m going to
wait for them to punch me.

And they`re all afraid to, because he`s the bully in the...


MATTHEWS: Well, you just said one ought to do it. You just said Jeb
ought to do it.


MCMAHON: One of them ought to do it. And maybe one of the guys who`s
not very well known or very much noticed should do it, because they`re
swinging up.

Marco Rubio is now at 3 percent in the polls. Maybe he should say
something about the racist, bigoted remarks that Donald Trump has made
about Mexicans. Maybe somebody else will. But there`s a moment in these
debates for anybody to stand up and take the stage and own it. And Donald
Trump is on the entire thing for...


BLACK: It`s not unusual for Steve to stir up trouble in the other



MATTHEWS: He wants a fight.

BLACK: But I don`t -- look, and the first thing you coach candidates
about in a debate is you -- if the moderator tries to get you into a fight,
you don`t take the bait.

MCMAHON: Somebody needs to punch the bully in the nose. And it`s
going to be interesting to see if anybody does.

MATTHEWS: OK, let`s place your bets. Will Trump be the winner
tomorrow night?

You said he won`t be in the headline.

BLACK: I don`t think there will be a clear winner.

I think what matters is who gets the news bite coming out. And, by
the way, the early debate could produce people that get the news bites.
You have got some real stars there in Carly Fiorina, Lindsey Graham, and
Bobby Jindal.


MATTHEWS: See, what I think Trump is really good at is there will be
-- they will come with their prepared material. And they`re pretty laden.
These guys are going to be obvious. They`re awkward. And you will know
what they have memorized to use, where`s the beef or some line, don`t use
my youth kind of thing.

And Trump will see that coming, and everybody will watch Trump`s face
as he watches this guy put his fist out, and it will be his chance to
flatten the guy. And then there will be another rebuttal and a
surrebuttal, and by it`s all over, Trump will have outlasted it, because
once a fight starts, guys, Trump`s not going to let it end. He`s going to
enjoy it.


MCMAHON: He`s authentic. I think he`s crazy, but he`s authentic,
he`s real, and he says things that nobody else on that stage will say.
He`s not a politician, and that`s why he will win unless somebody else
disrupts the momentum.


MATTHEWS: He can say, I got no problem with your wife. She came in


BLACK: He`s not crazy. He`s an entertainer. And therefore he`s
popular, but he will not be the nominee.

MATTHEWS: Are you sure of that?

MCMAHON: He`s not totally crazy.

MATTHEWS: Are you sure of that?

Because Rudy thinks he`s a contender. What do you think?

MCMAHON: I think he`s a contender.

MATTHEWS: We just had Rudy on. He thinks he can do it.


BLACK: I heard that, but if I lived in New York and went to dinner
with Trump every once in a while, I would say that too.

MCMAHON: Until somebody changes the trajectory of this race, Donald
Trump is the front-runner and will be the nominee unless someone takes it
away from him.

MATTHEWS: Charlie, I like your attitude. It`s all personal.

Thank you, Charlie Black. Thank you, Steve McMahon.

Up next, President Obama invokes President John F. Kennedy as he sells
the country`s diplomatic approach to Iran. This is pretty historic today.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.



The choice we face is ultimately between diplomacy or some form of war,
maybe not tomorrow, maybe not three months from now, but soon.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

President Obama offered that stark warning about the Iran nuclear deal
during a speech at American University here in Washington today right
across the street from mere. The president said if Congress kills the
deal, they`re paving Iran`s path to the bomb.

Well, the backdrop wasn`t coincidental. On June 10, 1963, President
John F. Kennedy delivered a speech on the same campus, urging a limited
nuclear test ban treaty with the then Soviet Union and a broader commitment
to peace between the two countries.


pursuit of peace is not as dramatic as the pursuit of war, and frequently
the words of the pursuers fall on deaf ears, but we have no more urgent
task. Our problems are manmade. Therefore, they can be solved by man.
And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond
human beings.


MATTHEWS: Well, President Kennedy warned that day that too many of us
think peace is impossible and that war is inevitable. And 52 years later,
President Obama said we should not repeat the mistakes made in the run-up
to the Iraq War.


OBAMA: I know it`s easy to play on people`s fears, to magnify
threats, to compare any attempt at diplomacy to Munich.

But none of these arguments hold up. They didn`t back in 2002 and
2003. They shouldn`t now.

The same mind-set, in many cases offered by the same people, who seem
to have no compunction with being repeatedly wrong, led to a war that did
more to strengthen Iran, more to isolate the United States than anything we
have done in the decades before or since.


MATTHEWS: Well, Senator Mitch McConnell announced today the Senate
will begin debating the Iran nuclear deal on September 8.

Senator Barbara Boxer of California has publicly endorsed the
agreement, in fact did so yesterday.

Senator Boxer joins me now.

It`s an honor to have you on, Senator Boxer, because you were right
about the Iraq War. You were out there all alone and said it was a stupid
war. And now the president is calling out the same advocates for that war
advocating a destruction of this treaty. Your thoughts?

SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, I think the president and
President Kennedy, both presidents, Kennedy was a truth-teller. Barack
Obama is a truth-teller.

This is very, very similar, because it`s a vote of conscience and the
alternatives are very, very clear. And I remember those painful days of
the Iraq War. And, believe me, I didn`t sleep much in those years, because
I was trying so hard to stop it. And it just went on and on for so long.

And we see the results of it here at home. So we have an opportunity
here to take the path that offers hope. And, you know, I came out with my
statement after I met with our allies. The ambassadors were here and they
were called together by Senator Dick Durbin, who is a great leader on this.
And they spoke to us.

And let me tell you what they said very, very clearly. If we reject
this agreement, we are playing right into the hands of the hard-liners in
Iran. And it will lead to a collapse of the sanctions and for sure Iran
building a bomb, and then the option is what? It`s war.

And the people have had too much of that. Let us go down this path,
and we always have that option, Chris. We always have that option. We
know Iran is a terrible actor on the world stage. That`s why we need this

MATTHEWS: I guess my question is, having watched you up there
debating it and deliberate, the people who oppose this deal, they say, if
you bring it down, if the president -- if the veto is overridden in either
house -- in both houses, then there will be some new deal out there.

And I keep asking myself, well, who is going to strike that new deal?
Do they have confidence, these people on the right, that the president,
President Obama will actually strike a tougher deal? It doesn`t seem like
there`s a direction there of a better deal. It`s just toward the bomb,
toward the war. I don`t know.

Do they really believe they can get a better deal from Obama in the
next year-and-a-half?


BOXER: No, they don`t.

They know they can`t get a better deal, period, because they know that
the whole world pretty much is behind this deal. And we know that Israel
is concerned. And, believe me, as someone who stands very tall, even
though I`m only 5 feet, as the longest serving United States senator who is
a Jewish American, and the longest serving congress member, along with
Sandy Levin, I`m saying to you, and he has said as well, this is the way to

And I want to say this, as I look at the discussion in Israel. We
certainly know where the prime minister is on this, and we know where most
of the politicians are, but we`re seeing now more of a chorus of the
security people there.


BOXER: For example, the former head of the Israeli FBI said, the
agreement is the best possible alternative from the Israeli point of view.

And we`re seeing more and more of these security people come out in
Israel. So I think, the longer this sits out there, I think the more
momentum we will get. Today, we got independent Angus King come out in
favor of this, which is huge, because he`s an extremely thoughtful member.
And I think the momentum is picking up.

MATTHEWS: It is so great to have you on this show. You`re almost --
I think you`re always right.

Anyway, Senator Barbara Boxer.

BOXER: Well, thank you, Chris.

MATTHEWS: And we`re going to miss you in this business. Thanks so
much for all your service.

BOXER: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: In his speech today, President Obama urged Americans to get
involved in this debate.


OBAMA: My fellow Americans, contact your representatives in Congress,
remind them of who we are. Remind them of what is best in us and what we
stand for, so we can leave behind a world that is more secure and more
peaceful for our children.


MATTHEWS: I`m joined now by Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for
"USA Today."

Susan, it comes down to numbers. Tim Russert used to say, numbers,
numbers, numbers. The fact is, he`s got to hold 34 senators on his side to
sustain a veto, or 146 House members. What does it look like?

that`s a bar he can probably get over.

That`s one of the deals...


MATTHEWS: Either/or?

PAGE: Yes. It seems to me that it`s likely that Congress passes a
resolution of disapproval. That means he will veto it. And it seems
likely to me that we`re -- and we`re starting to see the numbers come in,
not universally.

There are some Democrats that are either undecided or are going the
other direction. It seems to be likely that he will be able to sustain a

MATTHEWS: Can he do it in the Senate as well as the House?

PAGE: Well, I don`t know. But you have had a series of some
senators, like Barbara Boxer...

MATTHEWS: And Bill Nelson.

PAGE: ... and Bill Nelson come out and Angus King come out and say
they`re going to support it. Those are good signs.


PAGE: Now, you haven`t heard from Ben Cardin. That will be an
important one.

MATTHEWS: I`m watching Casey and Coons. I`m thinking, if Casey goes,
forget it. I think Casey is going to be key. Coons, I think, may well go.
It`s been his tendency on these kinds of issues. But I`m watching those
moderate, those guys that -- the ones you got to watch.

PAGE: And they`re not just moderate. They`re thoughtful on this



MATTHEWS: But the pressure on these guys from contributors is pretty
strong. It is pretty strong.

PAGE: Well, and one thing you saw the president try to do today in
his speech was, as you have said, increase the number of people who are
weighing in on this, so that it`s not only people who are supporters of
Israel, but...


MATTHEWS: Yes, 8 percent of the Democratic Party, of the people in
this country who call themselves Democrat, 8 percent are opposed to this

And yet reading the newspapers, looking at the full-page ads,
listening to all the chatter, you would think there`s a huge amount of
Democrats against the president on this -- 8 percent, one in 12.

PAGE: But the people who feel most strongly about it tend to be
against it. That`s the thing.


MATTHEWS: And they`re willing to spend the money too on these ads.

Anyway, thank you, Susan Page. This is going to be great to watch.
I`m interested that you think he can win on both sides.

Anyway, up next, Jeb Bush fumbles, and Hillary Clinton pounces -- a
look at the new aggressive campaign tactics from the Democratic front-
runner, Hillary Clinton.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


breaking news.

Police fatally shot a man armed with a gun and a hatchet in a suburban
national movie theater. The suspect attacked three people during a
screening of the movie "Mad Max." Only one person was hurt after being hit
by that hatchet. The man was shot and killed after exchanging fire with

And officials confirmed the airplane fragment found last week on
Reunion Island is from missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. Investigators
are also analyzing a piece of a suitcase that was found on that island --
back to HARDBALL.


JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The argument against this, as
well, women`s health issues, are going to be, you`re attacking, it`s a war
on women, and you`re attacking women`s health issues.

You could take dollar for dollar, although I`m not sure we need a
half-a-billion dollars for women`s health issues, but if you took dollar
for dollar, there are many extraordinarily fine organizations, community
health organizations that exist, federally sponsored community health
organizations to provide quality care for women on a wide variety of health

But abortion should not be funded by the government, any government in
my mind.



MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was of course Jeb Bush questioning the need to spend half-a-
billion dollars on women`s health issues. Later -- he later clarified it,
saying: "With regards to women`s health funding broadly, I misspoke, as
there are countless community health centers, rural clinics and other
women`s health organizations that need to be fully funded."

But Hillary Clinton pounced on Jeb Bush`s gaffe, tweeting: "Jeb Bush,
you are absolutely, unequivocally wrong."

And last night in Denver, she dug in some more.


he`s not sure we need half-a-billion dollars for women`s health issues.

I`m reading it because I want to quote it exactly. Now, he`s got no
problem giving billions of dollars away to the super wealthy and powerful
corporations, but I guess women`s health just isn`t a priority for him.

When you attack Planned Parenthood, you attack women`s health, and
when you attack women`s health, you attack America`s health.


CLINTON: And the truth is, what Jeb said, the other Republican
candidates believe too.


MATTHEWS: Well, Hillary`s clearly shifting to a tougher stance, don`t
you think? She`s calling out her rivals now by name and labeling them out
of touch and out of date whenever she has the chance.

For more on Hillary`s new aggressive strategy, let`s bring in our
roundtable tonight. Jason Johnson is an NBC BLK contributor. Sabrina
Siddiqui is a political reporter with The Guardian newspaper. Howard
Fineman is global editor of The Huffington Post.

Howard, she is getting tougher. She`s calling out these people. This
is no longer ignoring the Republicans. She`s hitting them. Why?

she`s doing it for several reasons.

First of all, she does care about the women`s issues. She`s running
more openly on women`s issues this time. But I think, as you have always
said, Chris, it`s easier to get into the flow of a story than to start one

MATTHEWS: And this has been started...


FINEMAN: All the attention`s on the Republicans. She`s getting in
the mix on that.

The other thing is, she`d rather talk about Jeb Bush than Bernie
Sanders who is creeping up on her in Iowa and New Hampshire. She`d rather
pick a fight on the Republican side than be drawn into mentioning her
actual rival at this point.

MATTHEWS: Sabrina, is that true? She doesn`t want to talk about
Bernie who is on her tail up there in New Hampshire, I mean, really, within
the margin of error. That`s probably smart. But at some point, can she
keep knocking Jeb? She`s got to get in contention to face Jeb.

SABRINA SIDDIQUI, THE GUARDIAN: I think at some point, you`ll see her
taking more digs at Bernie Sanders and other Democratic rivals. Right now,
she`s still struggling with progressives who view her skeptically.

But, look, this is something that the Obama campaign that worked
really well for them in 2012. They didn`t want the election to be a
referendum on Obama. That`s what Republicans wanted. So, they turned it
into a choice election, a substantive policy debate. And keeping intact
the key voters, the key demographic, the women minorities, that`s what
she`s doing.

MATTHEWS: Jason, why would a guy say -- a guy -- say that we should
spend less money on women`s health? When everybody knows women`s health
has been short changed by the way -- even I read the other day that men set
the room temperature, because they`re wearing suits.

Three of us are wearing suits, she`s wearing lighter clothes, and the
fact is, we would like the temperature to be a lot lower. And women say,
I`m cold in here. Of course you`re cold. But men get to set the

And certainly on health care, the money is going to men`s things.

This is why Jeb`s out of practice. That`s why he keeps saying these sorts
of things. The guy is out of practice.

And Hillary Clinton, you can`t avoid attacking somebody if they keep
fumbling on the one yard line. I`m going to run it in eventually. I think
Jeb has consistently said things and gaffes that allowed Hillary Clinton to
practice being witty and engaging and attacking because he keeps giving her
the opportunity.

MATTHEWS: She picks up the fumble.

Last week, Hillary took Jeb to task over minimum wage, health care,
and voting rights. Let`s watch.


credibly say that everyone has a right to rise and then say, you`re for
phasing out Medicare or for repealing Obamacare. People can`t rise if they
can`t afford health care. They can`t rise if the minimum wage is too low
to live on. They can`t rise if their governor makes it harder for them to
get a college education. And you cannot seriously talk about the right to
rise and support laws that deny the right to vote.


MATTHEWS: So, has it begun? I`ll start with Sabrina. Has this
campaign starting to hurt Jeb Bush? Does she think Jeb Bush is going to be
the nominee? I`m heavily in doubt on that subject. To go back to an old
regular Whig Party basically, a Bush, this revolutionary attitude in the
Republican Party, everybody yelling and screaming, you go back to the same
old Bushes again?

SIDDIQUI: She`s gone most aggressively after Jeb Bush, so it seems
the campaign believes that he`s the likely nominee. She`s also gone after
Scott Walker and Marco Rubio. I don`t think those are the three candidates
she thinks she is most likely to face. They`re the ones that she`s called
out by name.

MATTHEWS: Is she afraid to do the other guy?

JOHNSON: I think she`s afraid.

MATTHEWS: To go after Trump?


MATTHEWS: Trump would love this slam her.

JOHNSON: He would eviscerate here. And Hillary Clinton --

MATTHEWS: He`s got nothing to lose.

JOHNSON: Exactly. He`s got nothing to lose. Plus, I think in the
Urban League, she knew that Jeb was following her, and she wanted him to be
like the first new follower, like a Prince guitar solo. Like she wanted
him to come out and have nothing to say to that audience.

MATTHEWS: Like a what?

JOHNSON: Like a Prince guitar solo.

MATTHEWS: Oh, Prince. The guy formerly known as Prince.

JOHNSON: Yes, formerly known.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, the roundtable is sticking with us. The dos and
don`ts of debates.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Well, as Trump towers in the polls, new results from NBC
News and Survey Monkey show the front-runner has found his areas of strong
support. Trump over-performs among men and among voters whose education
level was a high school diploma or less. He underperforms among women and
among college graduates. No surprise there.

We`ll be right back after this.


MATTHEWS: We`re back with the roundtable.

And tomorrow`s the first in a series of 15 scheduled debates this
primary season, nine for the Republican candidates, six for the Democrats.
It`s high-stakes television.

So, we wanted to look at some dos and don`t of debates. Here`s what
we`ve learned over the years: rule number one, one liners do work, whether
you`re canned or not, a witty remark is often the only thing the audience
remembers after the dust settles.

Back in 1984, Democratic frontrunner Walter Mondale was frustrated by
what he said were insubstantial policy proposals by his primary rival Gary
Hart. To make his point, he quoted this famous question from a Wendy`s
hamburger commercial.


ideas, I`m reminded of that ad, where`s the beef?



MATTHEWS: Bob Beckel, his guy, had to teach him that one.

Later that same year, when President Reagan faced questions about his
age, he famously turned the table with this one-liner.


RONALD REAGAN, FORMER PRESIDENT: I want you to know that also, I will
not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit for
political purposes my opponent`s youth and inexperience.



MATTHEWS: Rule number two, debate stunts are high-risk, high reward.
One in particular worked for Ronald Reagan in 1980. After he put up the
money for a one-on-one debate with George Bush, Reagan tried to re-
negotiate the rules to include four other Republican candidates.

And here`s what happened when Bush and the moderator refused.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will the sound man, please turn Mr. Reagan`s mike
off for the moment?

REAGAN: Is this on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you turn that microphone off, please?

REAGAN: Mr. Green, I am paying for this microphone, Mr. Green!


MATTHEWS: But in 2000, Al Gore made a goofy attempt to intimidate his
Republican opponent, George W. Bush, by walking right up to Bush as he was
speaking. It proved to be an awkward moment.


positive done on behalf of the people. That`s what the question in this
campaign is about. It is not only, what`s your philosophy and what`s your
position on issues, but can you get things done? And I believe I can.



MATTHEWS: Well, let`s go with the first two. Howard, what do you
think of that?

FINEMAN: I`ve got to comment on the last thing.

MATTHEWS: OK, stunts.

FINEMAN: There`s an occasion where there was no speaking. That`s
very rare in something like this. It was just the double take and the, how
are you doing, weirdo? Get back to the corner.


FINEMAN: That one George W., the debate. It shows the theatrics. If
you`re going to use a line, make sure it doesn`t sound so canned. It`s
better if it comes in a reaction.

If you make it sound like a piece of your YouTube advertising video,
people are going to smell the phoniness --

MATTHEWS: So, Jason, somebody walks in some little hot to trot thing
with his wife and Donald Trump who is a master at spontaneity, nice work,
how did you come up with that one? You must be very proud. And just nail
the guy.

JOHNSON: You can`t do it. Here`s the thing -- you land your punch
with your words, right, but you block with your wit. You have to be witty
in order to respond to some of the one liners.

MATTHEWS: Do these guys have that? Do they have that ability?

JOHNSON: I don`t think anybody has it except for Trump.

MATTHEWS: Yes, I think so.

Sabrina --

SIDDIQUI: You know, I think that --

MATTHEWS: By the way, men especially, women, too. Hillary, remember?
Rick Lazio went up to her like he was serving divorce papers or something.

And something about men, we don`t like guys confronting us. It`s like
road rage. Keep distance.

The whole thing is separation like in football. Don`t get too close
to some guy`s space, because it means you have to fight. Nobody wants to

SIDDIQUI: And I think that, you know, one of the Rubio advisers
actually recently said in an interview that Donald Trump is like a rattle
snake with a toothache, and you don`t want --

MATTHEWS: That`s a mixed metaphor.

SIDDIQUI: That`s what the advisor.

MATTHEWS: Do snakes have teeth?


MATTHEWS: Anyway, the vague rule number three. Avoid condescension.
Candidates who are too patronizing or disdainful of their opponents rarely
come off well in the debate stage.

Case in point, the then Vice President George Bush in 1984 who
appeared to be lecturing Geraldine Ferraro about the Middle East. Let`s


GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: Let me help with you the
difference, Ms. Ferraro, between Iran and the embassy in Lebanon. Iran, we
were held by a foreign government. In Lebanon, you had a wanton terrorist
action where the government opposed it.

first of all that I almost resent, Vice President Bush, your patronizing
attitude that you have to teach me about foreign policy.


MATTHEWS: A more recent example was Barack Obama in 2008 when he said
this of Hillary Clinton.


CLINTON: He`s very likable. I agree with that. I don`t think I`m
that bad.

Hillary. No doubt about it.



MATTHEWS: That`s what happens when Barack Obama is flying too high.
A little bit condescending and it hurt. That was right before she beat him
in New Hampshire.

SIDDIQUI: Right. Both of these examples were also with women
candidates. And with Republicans who are not going to have a woman on the

MATTHEWS: Yes, but in the happy hour tomorrow, there will be a woman,
Carly Fiorina.

SIDDIQUI: There will be in the happy hour. But also, it can also
apply to men. You played that clip earlier, a Mitt Romney bet $10,000 to
Rick Perry, that came across as condescending, it showed arrogance and it
played into the narrative that he is an out of touch plutocrats. You do
have to be very cautious.

MATTHEWS: You had a sense that he had in his pocket, $10,000.

Anyway, rule number four is that gaffes are amplified in debate
settings. Not only they`re on live TV, but your mistakes make your
opponents look good in comparison. In 1992, then President Bush stumbled
through how the deficit had affected his family personally. It made him
look out of touch and played into Clinton`s hands.


GEORGE H.W. BUSH: Obviously, it has a lot to do with interest rates.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s saying you personally.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On a personal basis, how has it affected you?

GEORGE H.W. BUSH: If the question, maybe I will get it wrong. Are
you suggesting if somebody has means, that the national debt doesn`t affect
them? I`m not sure I get it. Help me with the question and I`ll try to
answer it.


MATTHEWS: He was grilling her like an economics professor. Are you
sure you didn`t mean to say depression or recession? You didn`t mean to
say deficit, did you? And Bill Clinton, of course, comes like a clean up
and says I understand you completely. You`re wonderful. And it was

JOHNSON: It was brilliant. And also, you know, it made Bush look
cold. It made him look distant. And here`s the thing --

MATTHEWS: It made him look judgmental.

JOHNSON: Exactly, exactly. You`ve got to make sure you just stay
away from those gaffes. You`ve got to be candid. And you can`t back off
things either. If you make a mistake, you own it. You don`t want to be
like Tim Pawlenty --

MATTHEWS: I`ve got to run here. Howard, finally, debate rule number
five: attack media. It has become an easy way for Republicans to galvanize
support in their base. Case in point was Newt Gingrich response to
personal question posed by John King of CNN back in 2012, about Newt`s ex-


JOHN KING, CNN: She said you asked her, sir, to enter into an open
marriage. Would you like to take some time to respond to that?


I think the destructive, vicious, negative nature of much of the news
media makes it harder to govern this country, harder to attract decent
people to run for public office, and I am appalled that you would be in a
presidential debate on a topic like that.



FINEMAN: Well, that gave Newt a short term lift with the core of the
conservative base of the Republican Party in the South. But the only group
of people that the public likes less than the media are politicians.

And so, he acted like the outraged politician. For most of America,
they looked at that and said, hey, buddy. You`re in politics. You know
what the game is. Don`t claim innocence at this point.

MATTHEWS: Yes, good defense for our team with that.

FINEMAN: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Thanks, Howard. Howard Fineman for the defense. And
Sabrina Siddiqui, and Jason Johnson.

We`ll be right back after this.


MATTHEWS: In finishing tonight, I`d just like to say something about
tomorrow night`s Republican debate. We`re picking a president here. This
isn`t just reality TV. It`s that, of course.

But it`s also about finding a person to lead this country we care so
much about. It`s about finding someone with the courage, the vision, the
leadership ability to drive us forcefully through this early 21st century.
They`ll lead us in dealing with the challenges of our time.

That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

I`ll be in Cleveland tomorrow night for a special edition of HARDBALL
at 7:00 Eastern and then after the debate at 11:00 Eastern.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.


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