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'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Tuesday, August 4th, 2015

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Date: August 4, 2015
Guest: Josh Barro, E.J. Dionne, April Ryan, Sarah Kliff, Sharon Cooper,
Cannon Lambert

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC: That does it for us tonight, we`ll see you again
tomorrow, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good
evening Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Rachel, it seems that these
Republicans don`t know what Reaganesque and Nixonesque means in the
totality of those terms.

MADDOW: Is seeing Ronald Reagan run for the Republican nomination for
president this year, is the main reason I want to invent time travel.


MADDOW: Yes --

O`DONNELL: He would be -- he would be somewhere -- would he have made the
cut of the big ten?

MADDOW: He would have been run out of the party long ago.


O`DONNELL: That`s right, thanks --

MADDOW: Thanks Lawrence --

O`DONNELL: Rachel. Well, tonight, Donald Trump actually did some debate
prep with his debate coach Bill O`Reilly.


BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS: We can now announce the ten candidates who will
appear on stage for the primetime debate Thursday night. In the first
spot, directly center stage, Donald Trump.



I like the cut of his jib. We`ll have to look into that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump, you guys, Donald Trump still leading the
Republican polls.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump supporters aren`t going away anytime soon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course, it`s only a matter of time before Trump
slips up and says something completely sane.


TRUMP ENTERTAINMENT RESORTS: Believe it or not, I have a heart. We have
to take care of the people that have no money that can`t afford to take
care of themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The new "Nbc", "Wall Street Journal" poll finds
there`s more trouble --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very few people are positive in this poll.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Plus after the vote to defund Planned Parenthood
failed, the new polls could have explained why --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Democrats love Planned Parenthood --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Independents, too, by a 20-point margin.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Republicans are universally negative on Planned

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: We should all acquit ourselves of the
way that we believe is consistent with the teachings that we follow if we
follow certain teachings.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris Christie is running on the platform of telling it
like it is.

CHRISTIE: I`m a Catholic, but I have used birth control and not just the
rhythm method, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He might be telling us a little bit too much.


O`DONNELL: The official line up has been announced for the first
Republican presidential debate and the big news starts at the bottom of the
list where Governor John Kasich managed to squeeze into tenth place and
avoid the embarrassment of being excluded from a debate which will take
place in his state of Ohio.

There are no surprises in the rest of the list, least of all the person in
the number one position in the polls and in the debate, Donald Trump.


BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS: So, have you been rehearsing for the debate like
all the other candidates are today, are you rehearsing?

TRUMP: Well, not really, Bill, I don`t know how you can rehearse from --
you know, for a debate.


O`DONNELL: That was Donald Trump tonight continuing his tour of TV shows
hosted by his friends. Apparently, the only debate prep Donald Trump has
done occurred on TV tonight with debate coach Bill O`Reilly.


TRUMP: Well, the Great Wall of China built a long time ago is 13,000
miles. I mean, you`re talking about big stuff. We`re talking about
peanuts by comparison to that.

Mexico will pay for the wall. I will make sure it gets done properly --

O`REILLY: By the way, do you know why they built the Great Wall of China,
who they wanted to keep out?

TRUMP: Lots of people that they didn`t want --

O`REILLY: No, the Mongol Horde, so that might come up tomorrow, you credit
me for giving you that answer if you use the Great Wall --

TRUMP: OK, good --


O`DONNELL: By the end of their debate prep session tonight, the richest
man in cable news declared the richest presidential candidate ready for the
big night.


TRUMP: I`ve never debated. My sort of -- my whole life has been a debate,
but I`ve never debated before, these politicians, all they do is debate. I
mean, they go from debate to debate --

O`REILLY: You`re not going to have any trouble with that -- you`ll look --

TRUMP: Well --


O`REILLY: You`ll have the answers in you, I know you will --


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, E.J. Dionne, opinion writer for "The Washington
Post" and an Msnbc political analyst, April Ryan, White House correspondent
and Washington Bureau Chief for "American Urban Radio Networks".

And Josh Barro, "New York Times" reporter and Msnbc contributor. April
Ryan, there is Bill O`Reilly giving Donald a few hints about how to handle

It seems to me that no one has to give Donald Trump any suggestions about
how to handle this. And it`s going to be up to the moderators to try to
force him into the debate format.

URBAN RADIO NETWORKS: Well, you know, that`s interesting you would say
that, Lawrence. I talked to Dr. Ben Carson, Republican presidential
candidate who has made the cut.

And I asked him about the Donald Trump issue at the -- at the debate. And
he said, you know, I`m leaving that up to the moderators. And you know,
it`s -- we don`t know how Donald Trump will react.

One thing we know, he does not finesse an issue, and we`ll see how he --
how he pulls it together at that debate. It`s going to be the most watched
TV event I believe of the year.

Just to see how Donald Trump reacts at that debate.

O`DONNELL: And Josh Barro, it is the most over anticipated, over hyped
event we`ve had in our politics, all thanks to the ringmaster Donald Trump.

JOSH BARRO, NEW YORK TIMES: We don`t know that`s over hyped, it could be
even more awesome than everybody is saying --


O`DONNELL: Well, here is what we know, no debate at this stage in a
Republican campaign has mattered. We know that.

And we know that the last time around the leader at this point in the
campaign was Rick Perry when they did this four years ago. And so, you
know, this is -- this is the first game of Spring training.

BARRO: Yes, well, I mean, I actually thought Peter Suderman wrote the best
piece ever and so far on Trump for "Reason" today.

Explaining, I think the first really good theory of why Donald Trump is so
popular with Republican voters which is the -- basically where the
Republican Party has stumbled over the last six years is with policy

They can all agree they hate Obamacare, they can`t agree on a replacement
that they like. So, the thing that makes Donald Trump so appealing is his
complete lack of specifics --


BARRO: He won`t say --


BARRO: Anything really specific about policy, even on immigration, except
for you know, make Mexico pay for the wall that we`re going to build.

He doesn`t have a specific plan about how we`re going to deport or not
deport 11 million people. So, I think what we`re likely to see from him in
the debate is a lot of talking around policy specifics.

I don`t think he`s going to give a lot of specific answers. Remember,
debate is two hours but there`s ten people on that stage. He doesn`t
actually have to talk for that many minutes.

It`s going to be little enough time, but I think he`ll be able to sort of
continue his schtick and we`ll see whether that sort of emptiness is
something that continues to play well.

But it`s been playing well for the last however many weeks this has been --

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to how Fox News analyst George Will downplayed the
importance of the Fox News debate. Let`s listen to this.


GEORGE WILL, COLUMNIST: Ten divided into 110, it`s 11 minutes per person.
There are limits to how much good or a damage you can do to yourself in
that time.

So, each candidate has to think carefully about what impression he wants to
leave in ten minutes. I think that most of them have been working hard on
this, and Donald Trump says that he is not preparing for this.

Since he`s running as far as I can tell a fact-free campaign, I can
understand that.


O`DONNELL: E.J. Dionne, when you hear George Will remind us as Josh just
did, this is going to amount to ten minutes per candidate.

We may have an awful lot of disappointed pundits and disappointed viewers
out there.

something up that really mattered, so I`m not worried about the pundits.
But I think it`s going to be interesting.

If you are Trump, you use the debate to look kind of reasonable, but if you
look at all reasonable, does that really spoil your brand?

Because what people like about Trump is, he doesn`t sound like a
politician. He says outrageous things, and as Steve Inskip(ph) said, if
saying outrageous things is your brand, then you`ll never get in trouble
when you say outrageous things.

And he has been such a dominant figure because of the television coverage.
If he can only get ten minutes in that two hours, he`s not going to look
like such a dominant figure.

He will be somehow equal to John Kasich and some of the other folks. Does
that end up hurting him? So how does he dominate without having a whole lot
more than ten minutes to speak?

I think that`s a real challenge to him.

O`DONNELL: Now Bill O`Reilly and others are almost egging him on about
would you please get in fights with the other candidates. Listen -- let`s
listen to that exchange with Bill O`Reilly tonight.


O`REILLY: Bush or Walker or any of the others. Do you plan on singling
them out?

TRUMP: I`m not looking to do that. I`m not looking to hurt anybody, I`m
not looking to embarrass anybody. If I have to bring up deficiencies, I`ll
bring up deficiencies.


O`DONNELL: April Ryan, to take Donald Trump at his word, it sounds like
he`s going to play this like a frontrunner. Which is to say he`s not going
to go take shots at people.

If he gets out of this debate without having any damage done to him, then
he has won.

RYAN: He`s going to play it like he always plays it. He`s the greatest at
everything. But one key thing we just heard in that piece, and he said if
there are deficiencies and there is something comes at me, I will show


RYAN: He is prepared. I mean, he came after Scott Walker, he went after
Lindsey Graham and he -- it came back to him, but he made -- what is it?

Lemonade out of lemons when they took his phone number and put it out after
he did the same thing to Lindsey Graham.

So, I believe he is coming prepared to play dirty. He`s a businessman from
New York who`s made billions, and how did he make billions by playing it
the way he plays it.

And I think he`s going to do exactly the same in that debate this week.

O`DONNELL: All right, let`s listen to one of the very few substantive
questions asked of Donald Trump in his media tours.

And a substantive answer that might get him in a little bit of trouble with
Republicans if they`re listening. Let`s listen to Willie Geist`s good


WILLIE GEIST, MSNBC: Are you for a single payer of healthcare?

TRUMP: No, but it`s certainly something that in certain countries works,
it actually works incredibly well in Scotland. Some people think it works
-- think it really works in Canada but not here.

I don`t think it would work as well here. But you got to take care of the
people and this is where I get myself into trouble with some Republicans.

Because believe it or not, I have a heart. We have to take care of the
people that have no money, that can`t afford to take care of themselves.


O`DONNELL: E.J. Dionne, is there an opening there for Trump`s opponents?

DIONNE: He sounded like a social Democrat there. And I think there`s
going to be --


O`DONNELL: A European socialist, he`s critical --


DIONNE: Yes, exactly --

O`DONNELL: European socialism --

DIONNE: Exactly, I mean, believe it or not, I have a heart, there`s a new
Trump bumper sticker. But you know, the people who support him do not seem
motivated by particular issues except for immigration and you know, that
was a very classic Trump answer.

He -- and I think you`re going to see more of this, because he`s taken a
lot of positions that are essentially Democratic positions in the past.

And he`s going to find some way around it -- well, it wouldn`t work here,
but it works OK there. I think you`re going to see him try to do that on
other issues.

And again, with that 25 percent that`s for him, it`s not all clear they`re
for him for reasons that have anything to do with his issue stance.

I think ultimately that`s why he can`t win the Republican nomination when
it`s Trump against one or two people, he`s still not going to be a whole
lot higher than this 25 percent, maybe it will go to 30.

And so, that`s going to get him in the end, but in the meantime, I`m not
sure it`s going to hurt his base at all.

O`DONNELL: Josh Barro, one thing I think Republican voters proved they
don`t mind is what used to be called flip-flops in politics.

You know, five years ago, you said this, and now you`re saying that. Mitt
Romney gave them a bigger collection of that than they`ve ever had before.

And all they seem to care about is, what does he say now? We don`t care if
he was pro choice before, he says he`s anti-abortion now, that`s what
matters to us.

BARRO: I think it`s a little more complicated than that. I think the -- I
think there is a very big appeal of so-called authenticity around Donald

It allows him to get away with these sorts of policy switches. It`s
actually something that used to be a big advantage to Chris Christie before
the luster came off him in 2013.

Chris Christie was a moderate, but because he had this attitude that made
him seem like he`s this tough guy and he`s there for you, voters will give
him more leeway on actual policy positions because they trust that some
deep level that he`s on their side.

And so, I think similarly with Trump, some of the things that Trump has
said substantively on immigration are to the left of Republicans in the
field. He said, you know, well, there is no way we`re going to send all
these people back.

The good ones will have to work out some sort of deal, anger, deal maker,
all work out that deal, that`s not a no amnesty position.

But I think the reason that he can still hold onto the voters who are
putting him in the lead in these polls is they feel like, well, Donald
Trump will cut a good deal.

And so similarly, I don`t think the 24 percent who are for Donald Trump are
going to pick closely through his healthcare positions.

But there will just be the sense that Donald Trump won`t do something that
will be like European socialism. So, I don`t think people will be too
focused on what he said specifically about Scotland.

O`DONNELL: All right, a quick break, and when we come back, who is voting
for Donald Trump and why, also how is Donald Trump affecting the agenda in

And a new poll shows Bernie Sanders closing in on Hillary Clinton in New
Hampshire, and we have breaking news tonight from "The Washington Post"
about Hillary Clinton`s e-mails while she was Secretary of State.

And Sandra Bland`s sister will join us later for an exclusive interview
about the next legal step the family is taking in that case. That`s coming



RICK PERRY, FORMER TEXAS GOVERNOR: I will tell you, it`s three agencies of
government when I get there that are gone; commerce, education and the --
what`s the third one there? Let`s see --


I would do away with the education, the -- commerce, and let`s see -- I
can`t -- the third one, I can`t, sorry.


O`DONNELL: The political world is astounded tonight by Donald Trump`s rise
in the polls. But at this time four years ago, the "Nbc News", "Wall
Street Journal" poll had Rick Perry way ahead leading by 15 points, way
ahead of where Donald Trump is now.

Rick Perry had 38 percent in the polls, Mitt Romney was at 23 percent, Ron
Paul was at 9 percent, Michele Bachmann was at 8 percent and Herman Cane
and Newt Gingrich were tied at 5 percent.

Up next, the people who are saying they will vote for Donald Trump in these
polls, what are they saying about Donald Trump when they`re questioned
about him and how is Trump affecting Republican policy in Washington?


O`DONNELL: Donald Trump may have hijacked the presidential campaign, but
can he hijack the Republican legislative agenda in Washington?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The word is that Democrats will filibuster and that the
President will veto, and is that the only way to get rid of Planned
Parenthood money for selling off baby parts is to shut the government down
in September.

Would you support that?

TRUMP: Well, I can tell you this, I would and I was also in support. If
the Republicans stuck together you could have done it with Obamacare also.

But the Republicans decided not to stick together and they left a few
people out there like Ted Cruz. You know, they left a lot of -- a lot of
the people that really went in and wanted to do the job and, you know what?

If they stuck together, they would have won that battle. I think you have
to in this case also, yes.


O`DONNELL: We`re joined now by Sarah Kliff, a senior editor for
Sarah, what do you expect Trump`s -- the Trump effect to be now in

Now that he`s weighing in on things like shutting down the government over
funding Planned Parenthood and surely he`ll be weighing in on other
legislative items.

SARAH KLIFF, SENIOR EDITOR, VOX.COM: I think it elevates the issue.
You`ve already seen a vote in the Senate to defund Planned Parenthood
earlier this week.

You see more and more of these same videos coming out. So, I think if you
have someone who is right on leading in the Republican polls, talking about
shutting down the government, it kind of elevates something that other
Republicans are talking about.

So, I think if you look at the Trump effect here on other issues, if you
kind of have the Donald weighing in, talking about these sort of things
that you`re going to see more of an echo chamber around here in Washington.

And I`m expecting as these videos keep coming out, as Planned Parenthood
continues to be under attack, that it is quite likely we could have another
shut down site just like in 2011 that once again centers on, should the
federal government give money to Planned Parenthood?

O`DONNELL: The -- "GQ" has an article with a reporter in the field
speaking to Donald Trump supporters at Donald Trump events, finding out
what`s motivating them, why they`re saying they would vote for Donald Trump
in the polls.

Here is one in Iowa identified as Randy and a veteran. And the questions
go like this to him -- "what`s your favorite thing he said? Answer, you`re

Who would you like to see him fire besides Obama? Let`s see: John Kerry,
our last governor, the Attorney General, every Muslim they put in.

The next question -- so you believe Trump has the fearlessness to run this
country? I know he does, said Randy. Have you ever watched "The

April Ryan, that`s one to build your confidence in democracy.

RYAN: Yes, it`s interesting. I`m going to say this, Donald Trump is an
all or nothing kind of guy. But he doesn`t understand -- again, he`s a
businessman who`s had to fight and scrounge and do what he had to do to get
his billions.

But in Washington, if you shut the government down it has ripple effects.
Millions of dollars will be lost every day, millions upon millions.

Then on top of that, you affect lives. And a lot of people were very upset
when the shutdown happened before during this administration and it really
reflected poorly on the Republican Party.

So, this is something that he may not want to do. And the White House is
even chiming in on this, saying that you know, dealing with -- trying to
switch up with Planned Parenthood, use that as a -- as a fighting tactic
and versus a shutdown, that is something that they don`t want to do.

O`DONNELL: And E.J. Dionne, it`s hard to imagine Donald Trump saying, oh,
no, we shouldn`t shut down the government over something I care about.

I mean if shutting down the government is the spoiled brat choice of
legislators, how could Donald Trump resist it?

DIONNE: Well, you know, that`s true. And by the way, he is one of the
only Republicans who seems to really like Ted Cruz, so that might also --


DIONNE: Set him apart out there. But it`s funny. I was curious about
what he said and not entirely surprised because the position in the party
now is, you have to be for defunding Planned Parenthood even at the risk of
a shutdown.

But I was thinking that if the Congress is in an utter mess and if the
Republican leadership in Congress has -- is seen as failing, that could
further fuel the Trump candidacy.

Because I`ve seen some of the reports on who is for Trump. And a lot of
the people who are for Trump are people who are very dissatisfied with
their party.

Some because it`s not conservative enough, but some because they just don`t
trust its leadership. So in an odd way, that may have been a relatively
risky statement by Donald Trump.

Especially since I doubt that he thought that about Planned Parenthood ten
years ago.

O`DONNELL: Well, again, I don`t think the past matters in these things,
and you know, we have more quotes here from the "GQ" piece about Trump

Here is Bob from Iowa. He said, "we need to get the Muslims out of the
country before they start killing our families." And as the reporter
notes, "everyone around him nodded."

And so Josh Barro, this is what you get when you wade into the Trump crowd.

BARRO: Yes, I think the "GQ" piece is interesting, it`s also one person
that the reporter finds at the rally who has reservations, says, well, I
like Trump but I`m concerned because he`s an atheist.

O`DONNELL: Right --

BARRO: And they go on talking about that, and then some woman comes up and
says --

O`DONNELL: He says he`s not, for the record --

BARRO: Correct, he`s Presbyterian --


BARRO: But so, I think, you know, it reinforces this is not -- these are
not the people who are most read in on policy. Yes, the question is, how
many of these people --

O`DONNELL: I was looking for that kind of polite phrasing and I couldn`t
find it.

BARRO: But I want to say one thing about the shutdown thing though, I
think it is very unlikely that we are going to get a shutdown over Planned

Remember just a few months ago, the idea was, there was going to be a
partial government shutdown over the President`s executive actions on

There is the situation where most of the government was funded but the
Homeland Security Department wasn`t.

Republicans were threatening to try(ph) re-opening the government to policy
changes on immigration and ultimately they folded.

And they folded because you can`t get any funding bill out of Congress
without some Democrats in the Senate voting for it. You need a few
Democrats to break ranks, send the President the bill he will veto.

They won`t have them with Planned Parenthood, they`ll fold for the same
reason they folded in February, so Trump will be able to say, look, I said
we should shut down but there are -- those Republicans in Washington folded

If you sent me there, I wouldn`t fold. So, it`s a smart political move by
him --


BARRO: But I don`t think it actually --


BARRO: Privileges action into Washington --


RYAN: Lawrence?

O`DONNELL: Go ahead, Sarah.

RYAN: No, it`s --

KLIFF: Oh --

RYAN: April --

O`DONNELL: OK, well, go ahead, sorry --

RYAN: I`m sorry. I want to go back to really fast about the Muslim
comment. We are a nation of so many different people and cultures. I
don`t understand why there is still this issue.

I mean we have so many different types of Americans. Everyone in this
country is not necessarily a bad person if they are in one religion.

I mean, I`m a Christian, I love Jesus and I beat the Bible, but you know,
one of the most amazing things that I`ve ever seen and ever heard was the
call to prayer in Tanzania.

So, I mean, what does that make me? So, you know, I just think that we have
got -- we are hearing the same stuff that we heard when the McCain-Palin
situation, the Romney situation.

We are a nation now that has to come together, and even Reince Priebus said
that we are more united than we are divided, the head of the RNC.

So, this rhetoric has got to stop because it perpetuates something that we
don`t want to see again.

O`DONNELL: But Sarah, there`s nothing Donald Trump is saying in his
campaign that would mute or discourage that rhetoric.

KLIFF: No, I don`t think you see that happening much at all in Donald
Trump`s campaign. And I think, you know, with this -- one of the things
this "GQ" piece really highlights is that, those -- like April says those
beliefs are out there, they are percolating and that you do see candidates
kind of taking advantage of those.

One thing I do want to take(ph) back to is Josh`s point about the shutdown.
I think he`s right that we are not going to see a shutdown over Planned

But I could easily see it going to the brink. Kind of one of these last
minute budget funding fights, where funding for abortion clinics is the
very last thing to get resolved.

Keeping in mind that we don`t send federal dollars to abortion clinics, we
just send it to clinics that provide other services like STDs screenings or
cancer screenings.

So, I think it`s right we won`t have a shutdown but I think the big debate
over Planned Parenthood is just gearing up.

We have more of these videos coming out and that we should expect this
fight to really continue over the next few months. This issue isn`t going
to disappear from the Republican campaign trail.

DIONNE: But I think --


O`DONNELL: Go ahead E.J. --

DIONNE: From the shutdown -- if I could say, I am -- I am quite sure that
John Boehner and Mitch McDonnell don`t want a shutdown.

KLIFF: Yes --

DIONNE: It`s still not clear to me that Boehner can manage the right wing
of his caucus. And he may even have to go past the brink to get to the
point where he can get the votes to open the government up again.

So, I`m not sure we`re going to avoid a shutdown.

O`DONNELL: Sarah Kliff, thanks for joining us on this one tonight, thank
you. Up next, breaking news from "The Washington Post" about Hillary
Clinton`s State Department e-mails and breaking news about Secretary
Clinton`s campaign in New Hampshire.

The polls are tightening there.


O`DONNELL: We have breaking news tonight about Hillary Clinton. The
"Washington Post" reports that the FBI is looking into the security of
Hillary Clinton`s private e-mail when she was Secretary of State.

The "Washington Post" story says, "The FBI has begun looking into the
security of Hillary Rodham Clinton`s private e-mail setup contacting in the
past week, a Denver-based technology firm that helped manage the unusual

According to two government officials, also last week, the FBI contacted
Clinton`s lawyer, David Kendall, with questions about the security of a
thumb drive in his possession that contains copies of work e-mails Clinton
sent during her time as Secretary of State.

Attorney Kendall confirmed the contact saying, "The government is seeking
assurance about the storage of those materials we are actively
cooperating." The speculation today about Joe Biden running for president
reached President Obama.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE PRESS: Sir, you are having lunch with Vice President
Biden later. Have you decided whether -- do you think he should run?



O`DONNELL: That is probably not the last time that President Obama will
try to laugh off that question. With increasingly reliable reports
emerging in the New York Times and elsewhere that Joe Biden has, quote,
according to New York Times, "Begun to actively explore a possible
presidential campaign."

Maureen Dowd`s column this weekend included a deeply emotional scene of Joe
Biden`s son, Beau Biden, urging his father to run for president months ago
when Beau Biden knew he was dying. And, every word was difficult for him
to say with the right side of his face partially paralyzed.

Maureen Dowd reported Beau Biden, quote, "Had a mission." He tried to make
his father promise to run arguing that the White House should not revert to
the Clintons and that the country would be better off with Biden values.

New polling tonight shows Hillary Clinton slipping in New Hampshire.
Bernie Sanders has pulled within six points of Hillary Clinton in New
Hampshire with Hillary Clinton at 42 percent and Bernie Sanders at 36

In the WMUR Poll of likely democratic primary voters with a margin of error
of 5.9 percent. In the last WMUR Poll, Hillary Clinton was at 51 percent.
Bernie Sanders was way down at 13 percent. But, Elizabeth Warren was
included in that poll and she polled at 20 percent.

E.J, Dionne, this New Hampshire poll for Hillary Clinton, I feel like if
that was the final result in New Hampshire, if she actually ended up only
six points ahead of Bernie Sanders, people would be worried about her
ability to get the rest of the way.

E.J. DIONNE, OP-ED COLUMNIST: You know, I am not sure that is true. I
think Bernie Sanders has a decent shot of winning in both Iowa and New
Hampshire, because those states are kind of perfect for Bernie. The Iowa
is a very activist. The Caucasus are dominated by activist.

Now, he has a disadvantage. He may not have the money as much money to
organize as Hill Clinton. And, then the Hampshire, he is next door and he
is having a grand time up there. So, I think the first two states are
really important, which is why she has just dropped a million dollars of
television on both of them.

And, I think in terms of the Joe Biden story, I still am doubtful that
Biden is going to run. But, I think what he maybe signaling is he is ready
if something happens -- if Hillary stumbles, if any of these the
investigations take off.

And, by the way, it should be said in the post story, the FBI -- the source
of the story said, "The FBI was not targeting her." But, if the party gets
really nervous, he is there. I have my doubts about whether he is actively
going to pursue the nomination. I do not think he is there yet.

O`DONNELL: April Ryan, the White House Press Corp, I assume is not going
to give up on this question.

of the Wall Street Journal had a chance to run into Vice President Biden.
She asked him about his bid, and he jokingly said, "Yeah, I will have you
as my running mate.

And, we were laughing around there. You know, the "Biden-Lee" ticket.
But, it is a serious issue. And, when I asked several people to include
Valerie Jared, senior adviser for President Obama. She was very serious
about this issue. She said that, you know, he has to make his own
determination at his own time as to what he is going to do.

So, the White House is looking at it as serious. They are letting Biden do
what he must do with this, but it is a very real issue. And, if he does
jump in the race, we are hearing that he will get a windfall of money.

O`DONNELL: And, Josh Barrow, there is other poll stresses for Hillary
Clinton out there. The favorable, unfavorable and the NBC Poll shows
Hillary Clinton now in a negative position there with favorable at 37,
unfavorable at 48. That is a big switch from the last time they did the
poll, where her favorable was better than her unfavorable.

Bernie Sanders has a favorable of 24, unfavorable of 19. He is in positive
territory. But Chuck Todd has made the point that most of the people in
this poll, especially top level candidates like Jeb Bush find themselves in
a negative position of their favorable versus unfavorable.

JOSH BARRO, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes, the polls -- clearly, people hate
pretty much everything.



BARRO: But, I think, you know, I think E.J. is right that Iowa and New
Hampshire are very favorable states for Hillary Clinton against Bernie
Sanders. One of the main reason is the electorate in both of those states
is very white. Bernie Sanders is polling much better with white voters
than with nonwhite voters in the democratic primary electorate.

But, after Iowa and New Hampshire, you go to South Carolina. And, I think
Bernie Sanders has made no demonstration that he has an ability to connect
with black voters. He is struggled talking about Black Lives Matter and
about the policing and criminal justice issues that have been very
important in the political debate over the last year.

And, so, I think It looks sort of like South Carolina is Hillary Clinton`s
firewall. She might be threatened by him in Iowa and New Hampshire. But,
I do not think Bernie has shown the ability to put together the two parts
of the Obama coalition that allowed him to win in 2008.

You need the sort of progressive left that is lining up behind Bernie, but
you also need strong support from black voters in order to beat the more
blue collar coalition that Hillary had back in 2008. And, I do not see
what the path is for him to put that together.

O`DONNELL: E.J. what about --

DIONNE: I agree with that entirely, by the way.

O`DONNELL: What about the Sanders capacity to show -- it is not
necessarily defeat Hillary Clinton from the nomination but to show weakness
in that candidacy going forward in the same way Pat Buchanan did by going
after the first President Bush in New Hampshire. Not beating him but doing
very well against him and opening up the cracks, opening up the weaknesses
in what became the Bush general election campaign.

DIONNE: That could be true, but I do not think Bernie`s candidacy is at
all like Pat Buchanan`s. Pat Buchanan`s really was an attack on President
Bush. Bernie hardly ever says a negative word about Hillary Clinton. And,
I think that also under estimates how much of the vote for Bernie is a
positive vote for Bernie.

You talk about authenticity. Trump has kind of fake authenticity. Bernie
is the real thing. And, you know, so, I do not think it is quite the same.
It would be a problem. If she lost both those primaries, I think she does
have firewalls down the road.

But, Lord knows what we would be talking about on a show like this after
two defeats. That is why I think she is going to invest more time and more
money to prevent that from happening.

O`DONNELL: April Ryan, one of the surprises in the internal of the polls
is one of her big drops in the favorability polling is with women. That
was actually a bigger drop with women than it was overall.

RYAN: Lawrence, not just women but white women. That is the issue. You
know, one of the stories I read, they said, you know, Hillary Clinton who
is a white woman. I am like, "Oh, wow."


DIONNE: I had the same reaction.

RYAN: Tell me something you do not know. But, yes -- so, I mean, but for
her to drop with white women that is saying something. You know, early on
we were hearing this big ground swell, "Oh, there is a chance that we can
have the first woman."

And, you know, even with hearing a little bit of something, a little bit of
a ground swell when Carly Fiorina, came in on the republican side, but she
has kind of gone along the wayside because of Hewlett-Packard and how it
tanked under her leadership. But, for Hillary Clinton to lose white women
and for her to be the possibility of being the first female president that
is saying something that is very strong.

And, she has to shore that base up. You know, it is amazing. She is going
to need that group. Women are the number one voting bloc in this nation.
And, she also is going to need African-Americans, too. And, that group is
not necessarily in her pocket as well.

O`DONNELL: And, she has started T.V. advertising in New Hampshire, Josh
Barro. So, I am sure the Clinton campaign is not surprised by this new
poll in New Hampshire. Their own sources of polling must have indicated to
them that this was coming. And, so, now they are on the air with real ads
in New Hampshire and in Iowa.

BARRO: Yes. And, I think the other thing that they are likely counting on
is that Hillary is a better retail politician than people give her credit
for. If you think back to a 2000 senate race and Hillary is sort of
parachuting into New York, and a lot of being like who is this entitled
person who thinks she can move to the state and be our senator.

And, then she went and did the listening to her upstate. Upstate New York
being very culturally similar to New Hampshire, spent all this time going
around, sitting in diners, listening to people. And, it was mocked at the
time, but it seems to have worked. And, she ended up winning going away in
that senate race.

So, I think that putting her on the ground there is actually going to allow
her to improve those numbers somewhat compared to where she is right now.
So, I think, you know, Bernie may give her a bit of a scare there, but I
think this poll makes it look more competitive than it is likely to

O`DONNELL: All right. We are going to leave it there for tonight. E.J.
Dionne, April Ryan, and Josh Barro, thank you all for joining me tonight.
Coming up, Sandra Bland`s sister will join us later for an exclusive
interview about the next legal step that her family is taking.



O`DONNELL: The Kentucky police officer who used handcuffs to restrain two
elementary school students with disabilities has been named in a federal
lawsuit claiming that he violated the children`s rights.

According to the suit, Deputy Sheriff Kevin Sumner is a school resource
officer, who used handcuffs last fall to restrain an 8-year-old boy and a
9-year-old girl by putting the cuffs on their arms behind their backs.

Both students had previously been diagnosed with Attention Deficit
Hyperactivity Disorder. Tonight, the sheriff issued a statement saying,
"Deputy Sumner responded to the call and did what he is sworn to do. I
steadfastly stand behind Deputy Sumner."

Up next, Sandra Bland`s sister and her family`s attorney will join us.



DAYS AFTER HER ARREST: Do not touch me. I am not under arrest. You do
not have the right to take me.


BLAND: I am under arrest for what?

OFFICER ENCINIA: -- send another unit. Get out of the car. Get out of
the car, now!

BLAND: Why am I being apprehended? You are trying to give me a ticket for
a failure --

OFFICER ENCINIA: I said get out of the car.

BLAND: Why am I being apprehended?

OFFICER ENCINIA: I am giving you a lawful order.

BLAND: You opened my car door.

OFFICER ENCINIA: I am going to drag you out of here.

BLAND: So, you are going to drag me out of my own car.

OFFICER ENCINIA: Get out of the car. I will light you up. Get out!


O`DONNELL: Three days after Sandra Bland was arrested in that traffic stop
by Texas State Trooper Brian Encinia, she was found dead in the Waller
County Texas Jail Cell. And, an autopsy report ruled her death, a suicide.

Today, her mother filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the Officer
Encinia as well as two Waller County jailers, the County Waller and the
Texas Department of Public Safety.


that we, in filing this lawsuit, are looking to hold those who are
responsible for the stop and Sandy`s death ultimate death accountable.
That is what this is about.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now for an exclusive interview, Sandra Bland`s
sister, Sharon Cooper, and the family`s attorney, Cannon Lambert. Sharon
Cooper, what I was struck by in reading the lawsuit today is this is very
unusual wrongful death lawsuit, because you are at the stage of the
information, where you do not actually know how the death occurred.

Lawrence. How are you?

O`DONNELL: Thank you. Thanks for joining us.

COOPER: So, one of the things -- the primary impetus for the lawsuit is
simply the fact that we are not getting the information that we have asked
for from the onset of the notification of Sandy`s passing in the jail cell.

The things that we have received have been due to the fact that the media
has been nice enough and, you know, has done us a favor by sharing the
information with us. When the media gets information that is when we are
getting the information.

So, we are in a situation, right, where our hand feels forced at this
point. But, we feel this is the necessary legal recourse that we have to
take to start to get after some of those answers that we have been looking

O`DONNELL: Sharon, let us listen to what your mother said today about what
might have happened in the jail cell at the press conference today.


GENEVA REED-VEAL, SANDRA BLAND`S MOTHER: I am still confident in the fact
that she knew enough about Jesus that she would not take herself out.
Anything is possible. I was not there. But as a mother, my inner is
telling me she did not do that.

Now, I am the first one to tell you, if the facts -- the facts, I am not
talking about the fiction. If the facts show without a doubt that, that
was the case, you know, I will have to be prepared to deal with that. But,
the bottom line is she never should have been inside of a jail. Period.


O`DONNELL: Cannon Lambert, if the facts show is such a loaded "If" and
such a loaded element of this, what do you need to be satisfied with what
the facts show?

There is a lot of loadedness to this. The facts really might prove one or
two things. Like, one, perhaps, someone was responsible individually, you
know, and this was murder. But, alternatively, it could be a situation
where we find that the facts prove that this is a suicide.

But, ultimately, what we do understand is -- in respective, when you have
an in custody death, that the individuals who are responsible for taking
care of the person in custody fail to meet their responsibilities and in
fact kind of provide the opportunity for someone to hurt themselves, they
have to be held accountable for that.

O`DONNELL: And, Sharon, I am afraid there might also be a third
possibility here which we are not able to prove that this is a murder or
prove that it is a suicide, that we end up in an indeterminate spot

COOPER: Hmm-hmm.

ATTY. LAMBERT: That lead us though -- as much as that is a possibility,
that still lead us with the reality that the individuals who were
responsible for taking care of her are, in fact, responsible.

You cannot put people in a position where they have the apparatus to hurt
themselves. It is really strange and really peculiar that you will have
trash cans and trash bags and ropes, and shower ropes and the like in a
cell, and put people in a position where they can hurt themselves.

O`DONNELL: All right. I am sorry. We have to take a quick break here.
We are going to be right back with more with Sandra Bland`s sister and the
family attorney next.


O`DONNELL: Sandra Bland`s family has filed a wrongful death lawsuit for
her death in that Texas Jail Cell. And, they are asking Attorney General
Loretta Lynch and the Justice Department for their help in investigating
what really happened in that jail cell. We will have more on this when we
come back.



ATTY. LAMBERT: We are very much asking that the D.O.J. get involved in
this situation. Now, it is requiring a fresh set of eyes, an unbiased set
of eyes. A set of eyes that is going to find what actually happened to
Sandra Bland. This family needs an answer to the principle question, "What
happened to Sandra Bland?"


O`DONNELL: Sharon Cooper, at the press conference today you explained why
you and the family were unable to get your sister, Sandra Bland out on bail
that weekend. Could you just quickly run us through the complexities of
that and how that got jammed up?

COOPER: Absolutely. We have the initial call from her on Saturday
afternoon at approximately 1:50. That was Saturday, July 11th, where she
did inform us that she was picked up for a routine traffic stop. She
expressed surprise that she was actually in jail at that point in time.

She did share with us the amount of the bond and she also shared at that
time as she felt she has been mistreated. She spoke with my older sister,
ShanteNeedham. And, Shante informed her that we would work expeditiously
as a family to get the money together, which we were able to do fairly

And, we were prepared to do so on Sunday. We just never heard from her on
Sunday at all. And, so, that is where I believe the breakdown in
communication took place and the inability to contact her or to reach the
jail. We never heard anything from her at all.

O`DONNELL: And, Cannon Lambert, that is the mystery period from that phone
call at 1:50 P.M. in the afternoon to the next time she is accounted for,
at that point reported dead.

ATTY. LAMBERT: That is right. And, you know, we really want to get
answers to a lot of questions. For example, what time did she really pass?
And, did she pass on Sunday or did she pass on Monday? When she was found,
you know, was she found in a state of rigor?

There is a whole lot of things we just do not know. I know that there are
some suggestions that have been thrown out there, but we do not know.
There is a window in time as it relates to what we do not know.

And, that is why we filed this lawsuit. You do not have answers to very
critical questions like that. And, you are not getting them because they
are not forthcoming. You do not have a choice.

O`DONNELL: This seems to be first functioning as a freedom of information
lawsuit because it gives you subpoena power for these records that you are
otherwise just asking them, "Would you please give them to us?"

ATTY. LAMBERT: Well, yes. When you file a lawsuit you do have subpoena
power. Much of why we were hopeful initially that we would be able to get
answers to some of the questions that we have is because we had engaged in
conversations with them preliminarily anyway.

They indicated that there was going to be forthcoming information. But,
when that did not happen, we kind of came to the conclusion that we are at
now. We got, as Sharon has said to you, much of the information that we
have right now through the kindness of the media, frankly. Because even
though we were asking for the very same things that the media was asking
for, and the media was getting them -- getting that information and we were

O`DONNELL: Well, that will have to be the "Last Word" tonight. Sharon
Cooper, again, I am very sorry for the lost of your sister and thank you
very much for joining us tonight.

COOPER: Thank you.

ATTY. LAMBERT: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: And, Cannon Lambert, thank you for joining us too. Alex Wagner
is up next.


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