updated 8/7/2015 2:08:43 PM ET 2015-08-07T18:08:43

Date: August 6, 2015
Guest: Carly Fiorina, Michele Bachmann, Connie Schultz



Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Cleveland, home of the Rock-and-
Roll Hall of Fame...


MATTHEWS: ... because where else would it be? And ready for what
promises to be an important night in American politics because if Hillary
Clinton still looks like the Democratic nominee, nobody can tell you right
now which of these 10 candidates, or 17 candidates on the Republican side,
will get to go up against her.

Tonight, 10 Republican presidential candidates take the stage at
(INAUDIBLE) arena here in Cleveland in the first presidential debate. And
for all the years I`ve been covering politics, there`s never been a field
quite like this one, nor has there been a national stage so exciting and
consequential as tonight`s.

At center stage, Donald Trump, by every standard the front-runner.
And is there any viewer tonight who won`t be watching his performance, how
he conducts himself tonight? Is he ready for his close-up?

Right next to him will be Jeb Bush. He was the front-runner before
Trump jumped in, and the two of them have been going at each other, with
Trump even going after Bush`s wife. And now a new report just out today
that Bush told one of his contributors that Trump is a buffoon and a clown,
and a word we can`t use -- and that the rest of the field includes
firebrands like Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, Ben Carson, the live and let live
Rand Paul, the hawkish Marco Rubio, and three of the country`s governors,
Scott Walker, John Kasich...


MATTHEWS: He`s from here -- and Chris Christie from Jersey.

Anyway, the candidates will be cattle-prodded by a trio of Fox
moderators. Let`s see who wins this thing. There are also seven
candidates who did not make the primetime stage tonight. Call them the
line outside the restaurant. How -- well, we`ll tell you how the undercard
went earlier this evening. But we begin tonight with a look at the main

Joe Scarborough is the host of "MORNING JOE."


MATTHEWS: Kacie Hunt is MSNBC`s political correspondent. Michael
Steele was Republican national chairman. He joins us. And joining us
tonight is Chuck Todd, moderator of NBC`s "MEET THE PRESS."

First off, we`ve got a news bulletin right now delivered by our own
Kacie Hunt. Kacie, what do you know about the prep by the Donald Trump
people for tonight`s debate?

KACIE HUNT, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, Chris, that`s the big
question, right, which Donald Trump are we going to see on the stage
tonight. And he`s been saying he hasn`t done much in the way of
traditional prep, but MSNBC has obtained some memos that were circulated by
a Trump associate to Mr. Trump, outlining some of the potential ways he
could approach this debate.

Now, a lot of it is traditional prep, like you`d see for any
candidate. It lays out broad themes, for example. That`s something Roger
Ailes always said they should do. It`s something man of these other
candidates are going to be striving to do.

It doesn`t include too many aggressive attacks on his Republican
opponents, which is another thing he`s been out there saying he`s not going
to do.

But what it does include is a lot of material in the event that those
Republican opponents go after him. So we have a couple potential quotes
that Trump could use. And again, these are memos that were circulated
among his campaign. We`re not sure how much time Donald Trump has spent
looking exactly at these.

But in the event of attack from Marco Rubio, for example, he would
say, quote, "Marco, you`re a nice guy, but you can`t even balance your
personal checkbook. How can we trust to you handle the federal budget?"
Pretty much tough (ph) jab (ph) there.

He also shows, while there were no prepared quips directly against Jeb
Bush, who`s somebody that -- you know, Michael, as you know, he`s gone
after very aggressively, he does include them in a couple of the others.

First, again with Rubio, "It is funny, when Jeb was governor" -- and
the instruction there is, point to Jeb -- "and you headed the Florida state
legislature, the Florida state debt more than doubled." We may be able to
fact check that with you.

He also includes in an attack line against John Kasich. Quote, "I
called Jeb and you" -- John Kasich -- "the Lehman brothers," another pretty
aggressive one-liner.

And finally, Scott Walker. "There are 10 people on the stage tonight,
nine are" -- or, excuse me. "I" -- yes. I`m missing my Scott Walker quote
here, but -- there you go. "There are 10 people running on this stage
tonight. Nine are running against Trump. One, me, is running against
Hillary because she`d be a disaster for this country. She is a criminal."

So there you have a broad attack against the Republican field, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Wow. Well, let`s go to what I think is going to be --
that`s fascinating stuff. We`ll watch Trump tonight (INAUDIBLE) if he uses
any of this stuff. That`ll be interesting.

Joe Scarborough, your thoughts about this because I think everybody
preps for these things. This is the biggest night of the campaign so far.
The audience tonight is going to be in the zillions, and you`d better make
a great, you know, first impression. To a lot of people, this`ll be

JOE SCARBOROUGH, "MORNING JOE" CO-HOST: Yes, I really don`t know how
much Donald Trump preps. You say everybody preps for these things. I
remember Jack Kemp in 1996 obviously didn`t prep. Some people...

MATTHEWS: Did any winners ever not prep?

SCARBOROUGH: No, they didn`t. But the question is, what happens
tonight with Donald Trump? Because you said it off the top. This is a
Republican race like no other in our lifetime. The Republican nominating
process for president has all the spontaneity of the Windsors in Great
Britain, trying to figure out...

MATTHEWS: Normally.

SCARBOROUGH: No, it does -- trying to figure out who the next in line
is for royalty.


SCARBOROUGH: We Republicans always pick who`s next in line. I
remember going to San Diego in 1996. I sat down at a table. This was
before we even nominated Bob Dole. Somebody came up, said, Hey, George W.
Bush is coming. I go, Oh, that`s great. They go, You know he`s going to
be the nominee in 2000, don`t you? I go, really? And that`s usually how
it is.

Donald Trump has changed that. He`s shaken this race up. He`s made
everybody look twice at Jeb Bush...


SCARBOROUGH: He`s got everybody looking, Marco, Ted Cruz -- and he`s
completely changed the complexity of this race.

MATTHEWS: So which is it, the new kid on the block, the exciting guy
or the same old, same old?

SCARBOROUGH: I don`t think we`re going to have the same old, same old
this year.

MATTHEWS: Neither do it. Your thoughts because your party`s always
been whose turn is it.

STEELE: Yes. Yes.

MATTHEWS: And the Democrats, it`s been like an inner city basketball
court, who`s ever got the hot hand. Never saw the kid before. Give him
the ball!


MATTHEWS: That`s the way it`s been, whether it`s Jack Kennedy or it`s
anybody else.

STEELE: Well, the parties have, you know, flipped the scripts on each

MATTHEWS: They`ve cross-dressed.

STEELE: The Democrats -- they`ve crossed-dressed. That`s one way to
put it. Yes, the Democrats are, you know, sort of, you know, putting this
making it easier for Hillary. You`re hearing now Martin O`Malley and
Bernie Sanders complain about the debate schedule because they don`t think
they have enough time. This is catered to Hillary.

On the Republican side, it`s wild, wild west. I mean, it`s a real
opportunity for the party to do a couple things. One, showcase the talent
that has been groomed and developed in the governors, in the senators, the
business community. That`s been good.

And the second thing is to have, I think, what you`ll see tonight, a
really frothy debate about what matters to this leadership.

MATTHEWS: Well, the big show tonight is when Trump is attacked, we
all know he might unload. Here`s just taste of the Trump dump leading up
to tonight, a preview of tonight`s attractions.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about Marco Rubio?



TRUMP: What a stiff. What a stiff, Lindsey Graham. He gave me his
number. And I found the card! I wrote the number down. I don`t know if
it`s the right number. Let`s try it, 202 -- (DELETED)

RICK PERRY (R-TX), FMR. GOV., PRES. CANDIDATE: Have you no sense of
decency, sir?

TRUMP: He put glasses on so people will think he`s smart. And it
just doesn`t work! You know, people can see through the glasses.

language, the divisiveness and ugliness, we`ll never win. We`ll never win.

TRUMP: He`s weak on immigration. He`s in favor of Common Core. How
the hell can you vote for this guy? You just can`t do it.

is to find the person to be president of the United States who can get the
most attention, he`s going to win hands down.

TRUMP: Well, I told this to Chris. I told it to his people. He
missed his time.

GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R-WI), PRES. CANDIDATE: I`ve said consistently,
Donald Trump can speak for himself. The other day, when went after me
specifically, I just said, Hey, he can speak for himself.

MATTHEWS: Oh, finally I can attack. Finally! Wisconsin`s doing
terrible. The roads are a disaster. The schools are a disaster. The
hospitals and education is a disaster. He was totally in favor of Common

temporary sort of loss of sanity. But we`re going to come back to our
senses and look for somebody serious to lead the country at some point.


MATTHEWS: Chuck Todd, back East -- you know, Chuck, the Democrat --
the Democrat and the Republican presidential campaigns have always begun in
Iowa. Speak softly, be respectful to people you meet...


MATTHEWS: ... low-key. And somehow, New York, the Big Apple, Gotham,
Metropolis, Jackie Gleason, the biggest noisemakers in the world have taken
over the Republican process right now. Is this for real, what we`re
watching tonight? Is this really the first big test tonight on Roger
Ailes`s network coming out -- really out of New York, is what`s happening
tonight, even though it`s out here in Cleveland. Is it -- has the Big East
taken this away from the Midwest?

TODD: Well, that`s an interesting theory. I mean, I think while they
might, they`ll never be elected president. You cannot become president of
the United States without doing well in the Midwest. And if you look at
successful presidential candidates, and I don`t care Democrat or
Republican, in our generation, Chris, they all had a -- they all connected
with the Midwest in an important way.

But let`s go to the bigger -- I think the bigger question here, which
is this idea that is, is this about Trump or is there something else going
on? Why is the Republican Party not acting the way it normally does, which
is just get in line behind who`s next and who will not, you know, blow it,
you know, who will do just fine.

And I think this is a pent-up party. The conservative grass roots,
the sort of the working class conservatives -- they have been upset about
the establishment of the party. You can argue to say they`ve been upset
basically going back to 64. But they felt as if they were listened to
during the Reagan years.

But ever sense the Bushes took control of the party, they`ve never
felt comfortable and happy in the party. And I think that at some point,
this was going to blow, right? We were going to have this uprising of the
conservative populist working class grass roots that have been growing in
the party for over two decades.

And here it is. And Trump`s just figured out how to tap into it
better than Cruz or Paul, all these other guys that we thought could. He`s
figured out how to be more blunt and straightforward and tap into it

Now, whether he can sustain it -- you know, I don`t know how he
sustains it. I don`t know how you sustain this level for this long, making
it all the way to Iowa, New Hampshire and everything. But right now, it is
what`s going on.

MATTHEWS: Kacie, you`re out there. Do you see Haley`s comet? Is
this one of those years, like every 20 or 30 years, when all of a sudden,
the party that normally goes whose turn it is, just gets wild about this
character and goes off the rails with a guy like Trump?

HUNT: Well, one thing...

MATTHEWS: Do you feel it?

HUNT: One thing I got to tell you, Chris, is there has been a shift
in tone among many of the top operatives at these campaigns. And it`s gone
from, What are we going to do about this flash in the pan, all we got to do
is ignore him until August, to, Wow, what are we going to do if he is still
-- if he is on the ballot in Iowa and on the ballot in New Hampshire? And
what if he wins Iowa, and then we`re trying to figure out who`s going to
win South Carolina.

Those things are starting to emerge as part of the conversation.
People are taking Trump much more seriously than I`ve heard them taking him
in the past.

MATTHEWS: What happens tonight if he acts like he belongs in the
pack, if he doesn`t look like an odd guy that showed up, that he looks like
one of the candidates for president near the top tier?

SCARBOROUGH: He doesn`t want to do that. I know we`re going to talk
about the...

MATTHEWS: He doesn`t want to look like...


SCARBOROUGH: He doesn`t want to -- you know, I know we`re not going
to talk about the happy hour debate until next block. But if anybody
watched the pre-debate, they understand why Donald Trump is doing well
right now because that was so pre-packaged. It was so calculated.


SCARBOROUGH: It was so mechanical...

MATTHEWS: Good job of promoting our second block!


SCARBOROUGH: Only one candidate really broke through. But you looked
at that and you said, All right, so this is why people are hungry...


SCARBOROUGH: ... for a candidate like Donald Trump that says
Washington politicians just don`t get it.

MATTHEWS: You know what I thought when I watched that, now that
you`ve broken the seal on this? I thought I was watching Bill Hemmer and
Martha MacCallum, who looked great -- the prom king and the prom queen
interviewing the people that didn`t get dates.


MATTHEWS: It was unbelievable! It`s so sad. It was just sad.

But I want to continue with this. Former chair of the Republican
National Committee, does he fit in the top tier? Does he look right? Does
he make sense?

STEELE: Trump?


STEELE: Yes, I think he does. And it`s obvious for a lot of people,
he does. And I think that`s going to be an interesting test for him
tonight, whether or not he`s able to take it to the next level and show his
level of competence to run for president.

But right now, it`s working for him. I don`t see him changing
anything. I think he`s going to come in a little bit more muted in the
beginning, size up the stage. It`s like a deal for him. This is an "Art
of the Deal" moment for him. He`s got...


STEELE: He`s got all these guys that he`s going to be dealing with.


MATTHEWS: We`ve been talking her up. Everybody`s been doing it.
Carly Fiorina joins us right now. A lot of people, including me and Joe
and everybody else who watched, thinks she was the star of an otherwise
rather nerdy effort tonight at 5:00 o`clock.

Carly Fiorina, what did you do the others didn`t do tonight?

leave that to the pundits. My goal was to introduce myself to the American
people. Only 40 percent of Republican voters knew who I was before

So my goal was to introduce myself and to give people a feeling of
what I would do as president of the United States and what my background
is. And I feel satisfied that they got an introduction to Carly Fiorina,
which I think was important.

MATTHEWS: You called Hillary Clinton a liar tonight on a number of
occasions. Do you want to explain why you would use such an almost end-of-
conversation term for your possible opponent next year?

FIORINA: Because it`s true. You know, one of the things that I think
people are tired of in politics -- and Republicans do it, as well -- is we
don`t use common sense language. We talk in sanitized sound bites. I
don`t, but most politicians do. People are tired of sanitized sound bites
and bumper sticker rhetoric. They want to have a conversation about the
real issues. And by any standard common sense measure, Hillary Clinton has
lied about Benghazi and about her e-mails and about her server.

MATTHEWS: How do you debate someone, if it comes to that -- you would
have three national debates with someone you`ve once again just this moment
just called a liar? Do you just begin a debate with, I don`t believe a
word you say, you`re a dishonest person?

It seems to me, having worked in Washington all these years -- you say
it`s just not common sense. But you really think that`s a way to engage in
a debate, to call your opponent a liar? I`m just -- I`m astounded by that
judgment of yours.

FIORINA: Well, first of all -- first of all, I was very specific
about the subjects about which I think she has lied. I didn`t say she lied
about everything. I was very specific, very fact-based, actually. You are
the one who`s made a generalized comment now about her, not me.

MATTHEWS: Well, once you call a person...

FIORINA: Secondly, I will debate her...


FIORINA: Excuse me! Secondly...

MATTHEWS: Well, OK, go through your list.

FIORINA: Secondly, I will debate her...

MATTHEWS: Go through your list.

FIORINA: I will debate her on the facts...

MATTHEWS: Go through your list of where she`s lied.

FIORINA: Benghazi, e-mails and server. I will debate her on the
issues facing this nation. I will debate her on her positions. I will ask
her, for example, how she can possibly continue to defend Planned
Parenthood. I will ask her why she continues to say she`s a champion of
the middle class, while every single proposal she has put forward makes
crony capitalism...


FIORINA: ... worse and worse and worse, which makes income inequality
worse. I would ask her why she declared victory in Iraq in 2011, why she
called Bashar al Assad a positive reformer, why she thought she could stop
Putin`s ambition, a man I have met, with a gimmicky red reset button. I`ll
ask her why she got every single foreign policy issue wrong as secretary of
state. That`s how I`ll debate her, on the issues!

MATTHEWS: Let me -- let me fine point -- put a fine point on that.
Why did she lie, or how did she lie, as you put it, about Benghazi? Where
was her lie?

FIORINA: OK. So it`s very clear from all the data -- it`s very clear
from the data, it`s very clear from the e-mails that she, that the
president of the United States, that the secretary of state, and that the
military understood that this was a purposeful terrorist attack on the
anniversary of 9/11, and they understood it while it was going on.

So tell me, then, why would you talk about the next day from the State
Department -- why would you talk about a video? Why would you explain that
this is not America? Why would you stand over the bodies of the fallen and
say it again?

Why not come out and say, This was a purposeful terrorist attack on
our embassy. Four brave Americans were killed, and we are going to seek

MATTHEWS: Thank you, Carly Fiorina. I see why you stood out tonight.
Thank you for coming on the program tonight.

There you have it. Joe, what do you think about it...


MATTHEWS: The recent secretary of the -- of the state -- of state,
well, just say many times -- she said she lied, she lied, she lied. So I
jumped to the conclusion she called her a liar, since she did on numerous
occasions in the debate I just watched.

SCARBOROUGH: And she name the three occasions that she did. I`m just
going to talk about Carly Fiorina generally. If you look at the debate, if
you look at the way she responds to the debate, if you look at the way she
responded when she came onto our show -- Mika went after her very
aggressively. Not only did she and Mika have a great debate, she came back
the next week, got in my face. She doesn`t mind confrontation.

As far as substance goes, there`s Carly Fiorina and there`s everybody


SCARBOROUGH: ... not just on the earlier stage...


SCARBOROUGH: ... but even on the stage tonight. You can look at
every single candidate.


SCARBOROUGH: But if you want to judge them by debating skills, I
don`t see anybody at this point in the campaign...


MATTHEWS: So you like the way she`s going about this. You like the
way she`s going about this.

SCARBOROUGH: Well, no. If you`re saying...

MATTHEWS: Calling her opponent a liar.

SCARBOROUGH: No, no, Chris. Don`t put words in my mouth.

MATTHEWS: I`m asking!

SCARBOROUGH: No, Chris, I don`t like that she called her a liar. I -
- what did I do? I ran...

MATTHEWS: I`m asking.

SCARBOROUGH: I know you`re asking, but you got to start listening.

MATTHEWS: I`m listening hard.

SCARBOROUGH: No, you`re not because you`re trying to pigeonhole me
into saying...

MATTHEWS: OK, let`s move on.

SCARBOROUGH: No, no, no! I`m not going to move on!

MATTHEWS: Well, we`ll have to.

SCARBOROUGH: Well, we`re -- I`m not going to move on until I say I
disagree with calling an opponent a liar. I don`t think that`s the

MATTHEWS: Well, that`s what I was bringing up.

SCARBOROUGH: Well, that`s right, but I`m talking generally about how
did Carly Fiorina do? Because I think that`s probably...


SCARBOROUGH: ... what people here...


SCARBOROUGH: ... and watching on TV want to know.

MATTHEWS: OK, I have an advantage here because her closing statement
went on to a series of cases -- she lied, she lied, she lied.


MATTHEWS: She was talking about the secretary of state. It turns out
that she lost her talking points for the closing statement. All that was a
deliberate planned attack on Hillary...


MATTHEWS: ... as a liar. Lie, lie, lie, it was all...


SCARBOROUGH: ... going to talk about for the next week of two about
Carly Fiorina, or are you going to about her performance?

MATTHEWS: I think that was her performance.

SCARBOROUGH: Just that one answer.

MATTHEWS: I think when she chose to make her closing statement, the
recent secretary of state and probable democratic nominee for president is
a liar and made that point repeatedly, I think that`s a highly significant
decision on her part, and I don`t think a good one for the country.

SCARBOROUGH: What -- what do you...

MATTHEWS: I don`t think we should begin our national debate over...


SCARBOROUGH: Should we really go back...


MATTHEWS: ... one side calling the other a liar.

SCARBOROUGH: What was George W. Bush called? Do we really want to
dredge up...

STEELE: I was going to say!


SCARBOROUGH: ... and in the Democratic Party called George W. Bush
for eight years? Was that good for the national discourse?


MATTHEWS: You know what? Let`s repeat -- retrieve the last several

Carly Fiorina was kind enough to make herself available to this
network coming off of a statement. Her closing statement was to accuse the
recent secretary of state again and again and again of lying.


MATTHEWS: We have discovered that she had a written statement to that

SCARBOROUGH: That is right.

MATTHEWS: This was a deliberate way to start a national campaign.

I think it is something that deserves news coverage and very important
decision-making by the American people. Do we want a presidential campaign
based on one candidate calling the other a liar? And I`m serious about


SCARBOROUGH: .... unfortunately, George W. Bush dealt with


SCARBOROUGH: ... for eight years.


MATTHEWS: OK. Well, let`s try to focus on Carly Fiorina, as we...


SCARBOROUGH: Well, of course you would like to talk about it when a
Republican says it about a Democrat. But what about when a Democrat says
it to a Republican?

MATTHEWS: I think, when the word liar is used, we try to focus on it.

SCARBOROUGH: Yes. I agree.

saying, and I get back and forth here.

But Carly Fiorina scored the points she needed to score, number one.

MATTHEWS: Which was, Hillary is a liar. OK.

STEELE: And she tapped into the fact that a lot of people believe me,
because, Chris, the polls are calling her a liar.

SCARBOROUGH: The American people are.

STEELE: The American people are calling her a liar.

MATTHEWS: The American people are going to decide tonight if that`s
the kind of politics they want to see, Joe. And you have rendered your

SCARBOROUGH: No, I haven`t rendered my judgment. Stop putting words
in my mouth. I know you are wanting to do that.


MATTHEWS: Let`s put it this way. Would you say that she accused
Secretary Clinton of lying repeatedly tonight?

SCARBOROUGH: You have the closing statement.

She said she lied on three points.

MATTHEWS: Yes. She kept saying it.

SCARBOROUGH: But I`m just curious.


SCARBOROUGH: Are you going to just hold on to this like a Jack
Russell terrier? Got a bone? Are you going to be carrying this around for
three weeks? Or are we going to look at more things than one answer?


MATTHEWS: As long as the bone is sitting next to me.

SCARBOROUGH: Well, if that`s the only bone you think you have to chew


MATTHEWS: ... the last 10 minutes, Joe.

SCARBOROUGH: Well, that`s all you want to talk about.

What I`m saying is, there are a lot of Republican that`s saw Carly
Fiorina, a lot of people in the press that saw more than. I do not -- and,
by the way, I have run four times. I have never called my opponent a liar.
I have never questioned their integrity.

MATTHEWS: Nor should you have.

SCARBOROUGH: And I shouldn`t have. Do I agree with her calling the
secretary of state a liar? No, I don`t.

MATTHEWS: I agree.


MATTHEWS: Joe, we are kissing cousins on this. We completely agree.


SCARBOROUGH: Except that`s not all I`m going to focus on tonight.
She had a great debate.

MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you, Joe. You`re a chivalrous fellow.


MATTHEWS: Thank you, Kasie Hunt. Thank you.

And thank you, Chuck Todd.

And I will get around to thanking you, but you will be back.


MATTHEWS: Joe Scarborough and Michael Steele are sticking with us.

And coming up, more of this club fight you just heard from Carly
Fiorina. We will have more highlights from the early debate from the seven
candidates who didn`t make the cut.


MATTHEWS: This is HARDBALL`s live coverage of the first Republican
Party debate, live from Cleveland.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL live from the club fighting here
between me and Joe in Cleveland.

We`re just under two hours away from the main event, the showdown of
the top 10 Republican contenders.

But the seven candidates did have their -- well, they missed the cut
and they met this afternoon in what Lindsey Graham called the happy hour
debate. It wasn`t that happy. They included four current or former U.S.
governors, the former CEO of a Fortune 50 company, a sitting senator and
the person who came in second back in 2012. That`s Rick Santorum.

One topic that came up early, Donald Trump and why he is dominating
the polls right now.


RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, when you look at the
celebrity of Donald Trump, then I think that says a lot about it.

I have had my issues with Donald Trump. I talked about Donald Trump
from the standpoint of being an individual who was using his celebrity
rather than his conservatism.

How can you run for the Republican nomination and be for single-payer
health care?

from Bill Clinton before I jumped in the race. Did any of you get a phone
call from Bill Clinton? I didn`t. Maybe it`s because I hadn`t given money
to the foundation or donated to his wife`s Senate campaign.

Since he has changed his mind on amnesty, on health care and on
abortion, I would just ask, what are the principles by which he will


MATTHEWS: And here by popular request, Carly Fiorina`s closing
statement about Hillary Clinton.


FIORINA: Hillary Clinton lies about Benghazi. She lies about e-
mails. She is still defending Planned Parenthood, and she is still her
party`s front-runner.

2016 is going to be a fight between conservatism and a Democrat party
that is undermining the very character of this nation. We need a nominee
who is going to throw every punch, not pull punches, and someone who cannot
stumble before he even gets into the ring.


MATTHEWS: We`re back with Joe Scarborough and Michael Steele.

And, of course, we`re also joined by NBC`s Andrea Mitchell. And
outside the Quicken Loans Arena is "The Washington Post"`s Robert Costa.

Robert, I want to go to you.

No, I will go to Andrea first.

Andrea, everybody seems to think that Carly Fiorina made a name for
herself tonight in numerous ways, but mainly stood out among a rather dull

did stand out. I think she was the hardest-hitting of the candidates,
clearly. And as the only woman, she had that advantage standing out.

But I think she did stand out. Now, it is tough and it`s not to
everyone`s tastes, but if there`s a takeaway from this debate, a debate
held in an empty stadium, which was strangely nonresonant.


MITCHELL: rMD-BO_ It`s very hard to debate that way.

MATTHEWS: That was metaphor right there.

MITCHELL: rMD-BO_ And I felt sorry for them. There was no audience.
There was nobody to bounce off of. There was no reaction. I have to say
that I think Carly Fiorina, for her toughness...


MATTHEWS: Well, one of the questions...


MATTHEWS: ... raised is that Carly seized an opportunity here. Not
only did she missed the cut, so she should be more aggressive, but she is
the only woman on either stage today.

And is she -- well, this has got to get into her head. Being that
aggressive on Hillary, saying that she lied about all those issues, is that
a way of saying, I`m not afraid -- if you put a woman up there, she has a
better shot at taking down the opponent you will probably face?

MITCHELL: rMD-BO_ Absolutely.

She is saying, I am the best suited to go after her. And she`s been
saying that for a while. She`s been out there...

MATTHEWS: Because?

MITCHELL: rMD-BO_ ... on the campaign. When we saw her in South
Carolina, she trailed Hillary Clinton to South Carolina. I interviewed her
that day right outside where Hillary Clinton was giving her speech.

She`s just been mercilessly going after Clinton and saying, basically,
I can do it because I`m a woman. She`s not saying that, but that`s the

MATTHEWS: That`s right.

MITCHELL: rMD-BO_ But you guys can`t take Hillary Clinton down.


MATTHEWS: Well, let`s go to Robert Costa, because I want to get
somebody to referee this.

Everybody is going to say, it looks to me, that Fiorina was the star
tonight in the early match, the top -- the bottom card. The question is,
they will also take her direct shot against Hillary for lying in those
cases. Is this going to be melded together and say, this is the way to do
it? Is this you got to be that tough with the gloves off and making that
ad hominem an attack on your probable opponent?

ROBERT COSTA, "THE WASHINGTON POST": You talk to every single
campaign, everyone had a Trump strategy coming in. Everyone had a Hillary
Clinton strategy. They came armed with one-liners, opposition research.

This was their chance to shine. You see Fiorina. She is the attack
dog. She relishes the role.

MATTHEWS: Well, what do you think of the fact that it was all in her
prepared statement, that she came in with the idea she was going to call
Hillary a liar in all those cases? That`s a pretty strong decision on her
part. Why do you think it is effective? Because it apparently is. We`re
talking about her.

COSTA: Because Fiorina sees a path to victory, if any, in a place
like Iowa. The activists, the conservatives in that state, they love this
red meat. They want more of it.

She doesn`t -- it is going to be harder for her in New Hampshire.
Bush is strong there. Trump is pretty strong. Paul is pretty strong.
South Carolina -- she needs a bounce. She is a lower-tier candidate. how
does she get a bounce? She has got to have the conservatives in Northwest
Iowa with her. These kind of Hillary Clinton comments help.

MATTHEWS: What do you think of her attack on Trump, saying, I didn`t
get a phone call from Bill Clinton? Then we find out -- we dig up a
picture that she was actively involved with the Clinton Global Initiative.
She wasn`t hands-off from the Clintons, but she took a direct shot saying
he is somehow Clinton`s candidate.

STEELE: Well, yes, because that`s what everybody believes.

MATTHEWS: They believe that Trump is Clinton`s candidate?

STEELE: Yes, because there is a narrative. And you will probably see
some more of it tonight about the connection between Clinton and Trump and
so forth.

MATTHEWS: What`s the strategy on Clinton?


MATTHEWS: Why would Clinton want Trump to do well?

STEELE: Look, I don`t even take that away from that, though. I think
they have a friendship and a relationship that is just there.

SCARBOROUGH: And they have for a long time.

STEELE: For a long time, yes.

SCARBOROUGH: You know, it is interesting, though. You are talking
about Carly Fiorina and her closing comment.

What is interesting is, Mika, Louis, the "MORNING JOE" team, and I
watched the debate, and the entire debate. We said, well, round one goes
to Carly. Round two goes to Carly. Round three goes to Carly.

Actually, this one part that you`re talking about was the one time
that Mika and Louis and I looked at each other and said, boy, that was a
weak closing statement. In fact, I texted that to somebody.

So if Carly Fiorina is declared the winner tonight by Republicans and
other people that watched it, it is actually in spite of that last closing
statement that she made, because that was the one time that she seemed to
be out of her element, the one time she was grasping for words.


MATTHEWS: Let me go back to -- let me go right back to that story I
talked about. "The Washington Post" broke that, because it`s Robert Costa
who is with us right now, that broke the story that Bill Clinton, the
former president, spoke to Donald Trump right before Trump went into the
race. And they report that -- quote -- "Clinton sounded curious about
Trump`s moves toward a presidential bid and told Trump that he was striking
a chord with frustrated conservatives and there was a rising force on the

Robert Costa, what do you make of the political significance of Bill
Clinton sort of being the corner man, the guy with the towel over his
shoulder, helping Trump get ready for what turns out to be a very
successful entry into this race?

COSTA: To use a Trump word, Chris, huge. There`s huge significance.

A lot of the rivals, they are coming tonight ready to talk about the
call from Bill Clinton. They think Trump has a vulnerability when it comes
to his relationship in the past with Hillary Clinton, Secretary Clinton, in
the past with former President Clinton. They want to bring it up. They
want to say he`s someone, if he`s not a tool of the Democratic Party, he is
too cozy with them.


MATTHEWS: OK. Go ahead.

MITCHELL: rMD-BO_ No, it also helps resonate with their arguments
that`s he not a true conservative, if they make that argument, that in the
past, he had a different position on health care, on abortion. They can
make the case that he is Clintonian or is too connected.

And if you really want to believe in conspiracy theories, Bill Clinton
is egging him on to get into the race because it helps Hillary Clinton to
roil the Republican Party`s race.

MATTHEWS: All of you here, including Robert, do you think that
Fiorina worked her way into the top 10 tonight, or the top 11, by her

COSTA: No. It is going to be very tough.

This 5:00 debate, it is big right now. But in a few -- in an hour,
we`re going to have two hours, prime time, Trump and the top tier. They`re
going to overwhelm this lower tier. I hear some of these contenders who
were in this first debate, Chris, they`re going to go out to dinner tonight
together, Rick Perry, Bobby Jindal, maybe watch the debate together.

They know they`re not the main show.

MATTHEWS: You all agree she did well? You did -- do well?


MITCHELL: rMD-BO_ Yes. But I agree with Robert.


MATTHEWS: But that`s all right. I will bring that up on my show
again tomorrow night, for the next several weeks.


MATTHEWS: Joe Scarborough.

SCARBOROUGH: And, by the way, let me just say I am against candidates
calling other candidates liars. Have I made that clear?


MATTHEWS: Clearly.


SCARBOROUGH: Good. I`m glad I have. Yes. Great.

MATTHEWS: The trouble is, there was an initial support of her
position tonight.



SCARBOROUGH: There`s not a support of her position in calling Hillary
Clinton a liar. The great thing is, this is all on tape.


SCARBOROUGH: No, no, no. All I said was, she did very well in the
debate. Her weakest line was her last.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let`s get one point clear. We all agree on it.

If you call a person -- you accuse a person of lying three different
times in a row, are you calling them a liar?


MATTHEWS: Three times in a row, she lied, she lied, she lied. Is
that calling someone a liar? Fiorina came back on this show and said, I
didn`t call her a liar.


MATTHEWS: But she did.

SCARBOROUGH: Yes. You got that.


MATTHEWS: I got that. Give me that point.


SCARBOROUGH: You got that to put in your pocket and go for a couple

MATTHEWS: You will give me one bone.

Anyway, thank you, Joe Scarborough, who owns the morning. Beware.


MATTHEWS: The vampire rises at dawn.

SCARBOROUGH: Yes. Yes. Thank you so much.

MATTHEWS: Andrea Mitchell, Michael Steele, Robert Costa.

Still ahead, Michele Bachmann.




MATTHEWS: ... four years ago. She`s coming here when we come back.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics, live from Cleveland for the
first Republican debate.



MATTHEWS: Cleveland in -- Cleveland, Ohio, home of the Indians and
the Browns and all this excitement.

I just want to know. Here`s a town known for a big Democratic
stronghold, right? Everybody is a Democrat. Well, then who are all these

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are all people that are open-minded to new
candidates, fresh blood, new ideas, and progress in the United States. So,
you know, they`re here to give the GOP, you know, a welcome.

MATTHEWS: OK. So you`re being generous?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely, and enthusiastic and loving another.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m a fan of yours.


MATTHEWS: Tell me the ways. Tell me how.




MATTHEWS: What did you think of this fight tonight? I`m with
Scarborough here. I mean, it was a stupid fight because there was no real
debate. Carly Fiorina called her opponents three times a liar. And she
can quibble and say I only accused her of lying three times. But I didn`t
call her a liar.

But the fact is, that`s pretty rough talk. What do you make of that?
Is that good for politics?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I think a lot of name calling is going on.
I`m actually an Obama supporter, so on the other side of the fence here,
I`m looking to see a Republican candidate with a little more substance and
a little less name calling. I would like to see more about the issues and
less about --

MATTHEWS: What do you think tonight will be like? Two hours, FOX TV.
What do you think?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it is a lot of people and I`m not sure
there`s a lot of time.

MATTHEWS: Who do you think has brains?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I think our governor probably does.

MATTHEWS: Kasich. Thank you.

We`ll be right back from here. Thank you --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. Thank you.

MATTHEWS: The home of the Democrats welcome the Republicans. Thanks.

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back from Cleveland to our coverage of the first
Republican debate right here in Cleveland. In 2012 GOP primary, Minnesota
Congresswoman Michele Bachmann was the only female contender on stage at
that Republican debate. Let`s watch.


is the proven -- constitutional conservative in this race? That would be
me. I`m 55 years old. I`ve spent years as a private business woman,
living a real life and building a real business. But you have to look at
the candidates that are on the stage.


MATTHEWS: In the summer of 2012, Bachmann surged in the Republican
polls and at one point lead the field.

In August of that year, the congresswoman scored a huge victory and
won Iowa`s Ames straw poll.

Former Minnesota Congresswoman Michele Bachmann joins us right now.

Congresswoman, thank you. It is an opportunity to have you share with
us your time. I`m serious.

What did you make of the debate so far? Did you watch the early one?
Are you looking forward to the next one? Where are you on this?

BACHMANN: I did. I watched the first one. I`m looking forward to
the second one. Because to me, what I`m focused on more than anything is
who will be the individual who will ensure that Iran never becomes the
wealthiest terror state in the history of the world and one that has
nuclear weapons.

It`s really the issue have our day. It`s the issue that is premier
and above all other issues. That`s my main concern. Who will be the best
person to deal with that issue?

MATTHEWS: You think -- well, I`m trying to figure out. I think you
may be right. Your entire party, no matter who the nominee is, the issue
is going to be security. Is that right? That`s going to be the issue of
the campaign.

BACHMANN: I think national security will be the number one issue
because we`re seeing the rise of Islamic jihad across the world, but
primarily with Iran becoming a terror state. In the next ten years, Iran
will hold if the agreement goes through, over a half trillion dollars in
new assets and they`ll have every level of women known to man, up to and
including nuclear bombs, that`s if they hold to the terms of the agreement.

So, if the agreement goes according to plan, Iran will be assured,
guaranteed of having nuclear bombs. That doesn`t bode well for the world.
And I think that is what Americans are on the edge of their seat about
right now. And that`s what they want to hear from these candidates. We
heard that I think in a very strong way in the first debate and now I think
we`ll hear it even more. At least I hope we do in this upcoming debate.

MATTHEWS: What are our options if the deal goes down?

BACHMANN: Well, one of the options that has worked historically, both
in Iraq and Syria and in Libya was to take out the nuclear hardware. That
does not start war. That would end war. It`s worked very successfully in
the past. I think it is something that would work very successfully today.

MATTHEWS: What do you think the reaction of the government of Iran if
we bombed their nuclear facilities and destroy them? What would be the
reaction, do you believe, we could expect?

BACHMANN: We have a very unique window of opportunity when the United
States is the premier power in the world today. We could take out the
nuclear hardware and we could withstand any level of a response that would
come from Iran. They don`t have the current military situation to be able
to respond.

That window of opportunity is closing, Chris. And I`m concerned that
it will close by perhaps as early as 2016 or 2017. So, the time to act is
now if we want to guarantee and assure that Iran never obtains a nuclear

MATTHEWS: OK, we should bomb Iran now.

What about Donald Trump? Do you think he could be a credible

BACHMANN: Well, that`s what he`ll prove to prove on the stage. This
is a big proving ground tonight, as I think I learned and all the other
candidates learned. This is about as big as it gets, unless you`re in the
final debate as the nominee of your party.

This is the second biggest stage. And I was privileged to be a part
of 15 presidential debates. And during that time, there is no filter. The
viewer gets to really see your heart and they get to hear your mind and
it`s a wonderful experience to be able to transmit to the audience your
authenticity, your sincerity, where you`re coming from on the issues.

And a bond and a rapport begins. I think we`ve seen on it both sides
of the aisle with Democrat candidates, Republican candidates, some
candidates connect and some candidates don`t. And that`s a part of what
we`re seeing now in these earliest debates. Will a candidate have the
ability to connect or not? It is the Super Bowl for politicians because
there are so few debates, both on the Democrats side and the Republicans
side this time, far fewer than before. Each debate, I believe, will be a
Super Bowl for those candidates, because they will rise and fall, donor
checkbooks will close very quickly, and candidates will have to make a
decision if they`ll stay in or if they`ll get out.

So, tonight is a Super Bowl because I think we could see a lot of
candidates make a decision about the future of their candidacies after

MATTHEWS: Thank you, Michele Bachmann, former congresswoman from
Minnesota. You`re great to come on.

Apart from the candidates themselves, the audience can sometimes be a
factor in primary debates. And during the 2012 primaries, we saw how some
in the auditorium were surprisingly vocal on a few key issues. When a gay
soldier asked about the end of military`s "don`t ask/don`t tell policy",
you could hear audible boos from the crowd. Let`s listen.


STEPHEN HILL, SERVING IN IRAQ: In 2010 when I was deployed to Iraq I
had to lie about who I was because I`m a gay soldier. I didn`t want to
lose my job. My question is, under your presidency, do you intend to
circumvent the progress that`s been made for gay and lesbian soldiers in
the military?



MATTHEWS: Well, that was sweet.

Anyway, Steve Schmidt ran John McCain`s presidential campaign in 2008,
Connie Schultz is a Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist out here in Cleveland,
and Eugene Robinson is a Pulitzer Prize-winning opinion writer and
columnist with "The Washington Post."

Thank you all.

Well, first, some pretty strong statements tonight. I don`t want to
get into any more attacks from my colleagues. But the fact is, Carly
Fiorina ended her very deliberate ending tonight accusing Hillary of lying
to the country on three different occasions, and you just heard Michele
Bachmann come out tonight and call for the bombing of Iran.

So these, I would call, a couple of aggressive candidate types. Your
thoughts, Connie?

CONNIE SCHULTZ, JOURNALIST: When we think about how this is going to
play out with the audience, I think it`s going to be interesting to watch
the response to these comments this time around. They are in Cleveland.
It is mostly a Cleveland audience. You are in the Midwest so you are
expected to have a certain decorum.

So, I`m kind of interested in seeing how this whole thing, the stage
is going to play out with an audience in Ohio.

MATTHEWS: Yes, do you think the language is too strong for a state
that decides the presidential elections?

SCHULTZ: Well, you`re in Cleveland. We`re tough. There are five
Ohios, five regions in Ohio.

MATTHEWS: So, liar, liar, pants on fire doesn`t scare anyone away,

SCHULTZ: No, no, we`re tough and I could imagine some catcalls from
the audience if they get out of hand.

MATTHEWS: Steve, what did you make of Michele Bachmann`s call for a
bombing raid on the nuclear facilities?


MATTHEWS: Her statement of principle here.

SCHMIDT: Look, I think she`s buying into President Obama`s red
herring argument, that the choice is war or there`s a bad deal.

MATTHEWS: No, the choice is bombing.

SCHMIDT: Well, I think that`s my point. She`s buying into the
president`s false dichotomy on this issue. Of course, the choice is --

MATTHEWS: You think Obama made her a hawk? Obama made her a hawk?
Come on. Excuse me.


SCHMIDT: My point, Chris, is that she is giving life to the
president`s argument here.

MATTHEWS: Yes, she`s making his point.

SCHMIDT: It`s a false choice. This bad deal is what will bring this
country to war over the next decade. If there`s a central lesson in
history --


MATTHEWS: My point, too, a lot of hawks out there waiting for this to
go down so they can start bombing.

SCHMIDT: Listen, Chris, this deal will allow the Iranians to build
their ballistic missile program, to develop nuclear weapons program.
They`re the largest exporter of terror in the world. They have the blood
of thousands of American soldiers. They are a sworn enemy of the United

And the wishful thinking by this president about that regime is going
to get a lot of people killed in the years to come because we are moving
closer to the inevitable war that weakness and wishful thinking always

MATTHEWS: We know for sure the war that your side supported, that
took us into Iraq, cost the lives of 200,000 people and that`s a fact.
This is a war --

SCHMIDT: A war that Hillary Clinton voted for, of course.


SCHULTZ: In Ohio ranks fifth in the number of lost.

EUGENE ROBINSON, THE WASHINGTON POST: Look, Steve, I really couldn`t
disagree with you more, without the deal we have no way of influencing
Iran`s behavior, short of war. We simply don`t -- and this is not just an
agreement between the United States and Iran, this is an agreement between
the permanent five members of the Security Council plus Germany plus the
United States and Iran.

And, you know, the horse has left the barn. The others are not going
to sign on to the kind of intensified sanctions regime that perhaps we
would want them to sign on to. They`re not going to do it. So, we will be
left with ineffective unilateral sanctions that don`t get anything done and
then a choice of how we affect Iranian behavior and the choice will be war.

SCHMIDT: There is a lot of truth to what you just said about the
ineffectiveness of unilateral sanctions, but all of this has been brought
by the stunningly naive policy incompetently negotiated, the degree to
which the United States Congress does not have oversight over the IAEA side
agreements on this deal is appalling.

And when you look at this issue, it is not just the Republicans, Gene,
there are many, many Democrats in the Congress who are deeply, deeply
concerned about this deal --

SCHULTZ: I think that`s --

SCHMIDT: -- and understand how much more dangerous the world will be
should it be a --


SCHULTZ: How many Republicans are for the deal?

SCHMIDT: I hope none.

SCHULTZ: That says something, does it not? You`re talking about
Democrats having a spirited discussion about where they are and it`s a
partisan deal.

SCHMIDT: National security issues will be at the fore of this
election because of the incompetence of this administration.


MATTHEWS: Well, the partisanship is clear. Let`s just let`s be
straight, the partisanship is severe. We`re looking at maybe Flake from
Arizona, one possible Republican senator.

I think in the end of the deal will be certified and protected by
Nancy Pelosi`s leadership in the House with 146 Democrats. I think that`s
going to be a very bad partisan stop.

SCHMIDT: I think we have seen great partisanship over recent years.
This is a vote of principle. I think Republicans are acting on conviction
about the security of the country.

MATTHEWS: Yes. Well, they`ve been doing it one person after another
in line.

By the way, Bibi Netanyahu will go down in history as a guy who made a
strategic mistake of being a head of a foreign government becoming a member
of the Republican Party. That was a big mistake on his part. He shouldn`t
have joined forces as a partisan, because partisanship should end at the
water`s edge coming in both directions.

Thank you, Steve Schmidt. But you`re entitled to your opinion.

Connie Schultz, a great columnist, Pulitzer Prize winner, and Pulitzer
Prize -- I`m often lucky to be with Eugene Robinson.

We`re coming back for another hour live from Cleveland. Now with just
one hour to go until the big fight, the first Republican debate right here
on Cleveland`s stage. Back after this.



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