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'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Tuesday, August 11th, 2015

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Date: August 11, 2015
Guest: Tim Pawlenty, Eugene Joseph Dionne, Jonathan Allen, Claire
McCaskill, Lincoln Chafee, Tim Pawlenty, Antonio French

ARI MELBER, MSNBC: A new recording of an important speech by Martin Luther
King Junior, that is easily by far the best new thing in the world today.

That is our show. Now, it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence
O`Donnell, good evening, Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Good evening Ari, that was truly
amazing to hear. Thanks for that.

MELBER: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Well, tonight, Jeb Bush just gave a speech in which he said
when he becomes president he may well send more troops to Iraq to finish
the job that his brother started.


JEB BUSH, FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: To really grasp what the next president
will face, we have to look candidly at a few policies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a big night and a big speech for Jeb Bush.

BUSH: The Islamic State and its followers are asymmetric threat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor Bush is trying to wage his campaign on issues
of substance.

TRUMP ENTERTAINMENT RESORTS: I watched Jeb Bush give the worst answer the
other day. Jeb`s answer the other day on women`s health issues is a
disaster for him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you focus in on Trump, you get involved in the
clown car.

TRUMP: Look at the polls, I can only go by the polls.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A new Suffolk University survey indicates that he is
still ahead in Iowa.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the campaign that is not a campaign.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: Because someone can stand up and say you`re
stupid and you`re ugly, does not equate with a vision for the country.

TRUMP: I am the most fabulous whiner, I do whine because I want to win.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trump remains on top after the debate.

TRUMP: There should have been 2 million people watching, they had 24
million people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was fantastic, the ratings were huge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The best reality show on television.

TRUMP: Who do you think they`re watching, Jeb Bush? I don`t think so.


O`DONNELL: Tonight, at the Reagan Library in California and a major
foreign policy speech, Jeb Bush confronted the biggest weakness of his
presidential campaign.

His brotherly connection to what even Jeb Bush acknowledges is the war that
never should have happened.


BUSH: No leader or policymaker involved will claim to have gotten
everything right in the region, Iraq especially.

Yet, in a long experience that includes failures of intelligence and
military setbacks, one moment stands out in memory as the turning point we
had all been waiting for, and that was the surge of military and diplomatic
operations that turned events toward victory.

It was a success, brilliant, heroic and costly. And this nation will never
forget the courage and sacrifice that made it all possible.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now is former Minnesota governor and former
Republican presidential candidate Tim Pawlenty, also with us, E.J. Dionne,
an opinion writer for "The Washington Post" and Jonathan Allen, chief
political correspondent for

Governor Pawlenty, what do you make of Jeb Bush doing a big speech about
Iraq tonight without ever discussing in that speech how we got in there in
the first place?

kudos to Jeb Bush or any other candidate who actually wants to talk about

So, I welcome the fact that a candidate is talking about something
substantive and tip of the cap to him for that.

And if you`re going to talk about Iraq obviously, you got to talk about how
it started and how we got there in the whole story.

But he did properly focus on an inflection point which was the transition
from the Bush administration to the Obama administration.

The failure to leave a residual force was a consequential decision that
we`re living with today in a bad way.

The failure to enforce a red line in Syria was a consequential decision.
So it`s fair to call out those very important decisions, wrong decisions by
this administration.

O`DONNELL: E. J. Dionne, your reaction to the speech tonight?

he`s going all in, in defending his brother in the end and all in, in
adopting a version of his foreign policy.

I think in watching the speech tonight, you saw very different responses
from Republicans and Democrats. Democrats were saying -- and I think
they`re right about this.

That if you look forward to November of 2016, a hawkish speech that
suggests we got to send all kinds of stuff back to the Middle East won`t
play well with the broader electorate.

But Republicans feel very differently about this. There was a Gallup poll
in June that showed 68 percent of Democrats thought the Iraq war was a

But only 31 percent of Republicans thought that. So, then I think Jeb sees
this as a way of looking presidential to Republicans and looking like a
tough hawk to Republicans and he thinks that`s a way to come out of a kind
of flat situation that he`s been in the polls.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what his Iraq plan is now.


BUSH: Let`s start with Iraq, in the five broad actions, I would take as
president to help remove the threat from that country. First, we must
support the Iraqi forces, which right now have the will to win but not the

Second, we must give these forces the consistent advantage of American air
power. Third, we must make a better use of the limited forces we have by
giving them a greater range of action.

Right now, we have around 3,500 soldiers and Marines in Iraq, and more may
well be needed. We do not need and our friends don`t ask for a major
commitment of American combat forces.

But what we do need is to convey that we`re serious, that we`re determined
to help local forces take back their country.

Fourth, we should provide more support to the Kurds, giving them decisive
military power against ISIS.



O`DONNELL: Jonathan Allen, he kind of crawled up to that issue of how many
more troops do we need? You have Lindsey Graham being very specific about
this, you know, saying we definitely need more and getting into real

But the closest he came there is to say, we may well need more to do the
job right.

public is not going to support a major ground war in Iraq again, at least
not at this point. And I think, you know, he has said before that he wants
to be willing to lose the primary to win the general.

I actually think the message he was -- E.J. was saying is actually really
much aimed at the primary, is sounding tough.

I`m not sure that his plan is actually all that different right now from
what President Obama has done or has at least thought about in terms of
American planes.

Obviously talking about something different there. But what Jeb Bush is
failing to do is say the eight words that would matter most, which are my
father was right, my brother was wrong.

O`DONNELL: Tim Pawlenty, how do you suppose that would play in the
Republican primary, my father was right, my brother was wrong?

PAWLENTY: Well, that can be interpreted a number of different ways,
Lawrence, but --


PAWLENTY: You know, this speech --

ALLEN: About Iraq, about Iraq --


O`DONNELL: About Iraq, yes.

PAWLENTY: You know, the President took out all the troops in Iraq and then
he put 3,500 back in. And what Jeb outlined tonight, those five steps that
you just played, those are reasonable steps.

Look, this president, this commander-in-chief said it is the mission of the
United States to defeat and destroy ISIS, and that is not happening

And so you`re going to have to change and upgrade the tactics and the
success and Jeb has outlined the plan to do that. And those are reasonable

And if you read the speech as I did, he`s not talking about major combat
troops on the ground. He`s talking about spotters so that the air attacks
can be more precise and more timely.

He`s talking about equipping the Kurds, he`s talking about equipping Sunnis
and having perhaps another Sunni re-awakening.

Working with the Iraqis, and so, those are reasonable steps if you`re going
to try to defeat and destroy ISIS in Iraq.

O`DONNELL: E.J. Dionne, it`s one of those things in the age of Trump where
when you`re listening to or watching a Jeb Bush speech, you can`t keep
Trump out of your mind.

And as you watch this, this was, as Tim Pawlenty says, you know, a serious
speech by a serious candidate. You can disagree with factual points and
you can disagree with a lot of ideas that he has going forward.

But it was a -- it was a very seriously composed and delivered speech, just
nothing like what Donald Trump says about Iraq or ISIS or any of these

DIONNE: Well, you can do a wonderful montage of Trump`s virtually
substanceless speech today right up against the Bush speech.

And I do agree with Governor Pawlenty on one thing, which is, it is good to
hear candidates give serious speeches.

Hillary Clinton gave a serious speech about student loans this week, it got
almost no attention. But the -- what was interesting watching Twitter
tonight is that people are almost acting as if it were the general

And you know, really going after or defending Jeb`s speech. I think one of
the things you`re seeing in this campaign is that, both Jeb and Hillary
think they`re better off arguing with each other than with any of the
people they`re running against in the primary.

Hoping that, that creates the sense that they are the inevitable nominees
because they both been going at each other pretty hard the last week.

O`DONNELL: We`ve got a new Suffolk University poll tonight of Iowa. This
is an Iowa poll showing Donald Trump now at 17 in Iowa.

Scott Walker at 12, Rubio, 10, Carson, 9, Cruz, 7, Fiorina, 7, and Jeb Bush
way down there now in Iowa at 5. Jonathan Allen, that is -- how does that
hit the Bush campaign tonight?

ALLEN: I think it`s got to be pretty bad news for them. And I think they
should, obviously want to wait for multiple polls, make sure it`s not an

But they should start thinking about either their strategy in Iowa, or
having a strategy outside of Iowa work. The Iowa voters -- and I think
Governor Pawlenty can speak to this pretty well.

It`s a -- it`s a conservative group in the Republican primary, I don`t
think that Jeb Bush distinguished himself as particularly conservative on
the debate stage last Thursday and I think you`re seeing some fallout from


DIONNE: And Lawrence --

O`DONNELL: Go ahead --

DIONNE: Can I just say there`s another poll out that shows Jeb second to
Trump in New Hampshire. I think Jeb is in the end going to give -- largely
give up on Iowa.

He`s been very weak there, he`s got to contend for New Hampshire, but that
New Hampshire poll also showed Kasich up to 12 percent. And so, in New
Hampshire, Kasich is chipping away from potential Jeb Bush votes.

O`DONNELL: Tim Pawlenty, what is Jeb Bush`s move at this point?

PAWLENTY: Well, I don`t think he is going to play particularly well in
Iowa. He`s going to have to put a lot of chips down on New Hampshire, but
that`s the --


PAWLENTY: Same strategy that Kasich has, that --


PAWLENTY: Chris Christie has --


O`DONNELL: Everyone is begging on New Hampshire now --

PAWLENTY: And then you go down to the southeast, the so-called SEC primary
and that`s -- those are conservative states, so Jeb is going to have to
find another gear here pretty quickly.

He`s got enough money to play out his hand and hopefully watch some other
things develop in this race that might help him. Being steady is one
thing, but it`s not going to get you the nomination or the presidency.

So, he`s going to have to find another gear, he`s got it in him and he`s
got time. So, I think he can do it, but it`s not going to happen probably
in Iowa.

O`DONNELL: Jonathan Allen, have we seen Jeb Bush back to the wall in a
campaign before?

ALLEN: Only when he lost for governor the first time.


ALLEN: I mean, this is somebody who hasn`t really taken a punch and come
back from it. You know, the old story used to be that Jeb Bush was the
better brother, the better campaigner, the better to be president and
George Bush had slipped in because Jeb had lost in Florida.

I think what we`re seeing on the campaign trail is that, George W. Bush was
a much better campaigner than Jeb, and we haven`t seen that fight from him

He doesn`t have that energy, we saw on the debate stage, he looked a little
nervous first time on the national debate stage like that.

And I think he`s going to have to find it in him to really want it. We
haven`t seen that from him yet.

O`DONNELL: Jonathan Allen and E.J. Dionne, thanks for joining us tonight.
And Governor --

DIONNE: Good to be with you --

O`DONNELL: Pawlenty is going to hang around and we`re going to discuss one
of our favorite subjects, socialism. A subject we didn`t finish discussing
last week on this program.

Also coming up, Donald Trump says no presidential candidate will be better
on women`s issues than Donald Trump. Senator Claire McCaskill who actually
is a woman will join us to discuss that and other things.

Also, Democratic candidate for president Lincoln Chafee will be here and
later authorities in Ferguson released new surveillance video today showing
the scene just before police shot an 18-year-old in Ferguson late Sunday


O`DONNELL: Last night, I was trying to think of who was it? What
Republican voice did I hear say to -- on television to Donald Trump that
it`s not OK to say those words about Rosie O`Donnell either.

All the coverage seems to be allowing Donald Trump to pretend it`s
perfectly OK to say anything you want about Rosie O`Donnell.

It was Matthew Dowd who was on "This Week" with George Stephanopoulos and
here is what he said.


MATTHEW DOWD, POLITICAL CONSULTANT: I think the biggest mistake the
Republicans on that stage made dealing with Donald Trump is, somebody
should have stood up and taken him on the women`s issues.

This shouldn`t be about, oh, don`t attack Megyn Kelly, this should be about
don`t attack Rosie O`Donnell, don`t attack Michelle Obama, don`t attack
Wendy Davis in Texas.

This is not just like defend your friends, they should have stood --
somebody should have stood up, not waited two days later and say, oh, by
the way Donald Trump shouldn`t have done that.

On that stage, instead of traditional value of Republicans or people should
be respect of women --





TRUMP: We`re going to do great with the women vote. I will be great on
women`s health issues. I cherish women and I will be great on women`s
health issues. Believe me.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, one of those women Donald Trump cherishes, the
author of the new book --


O`DONNELL: "Plenty Ladylike", Claire McCaskill, the Democratic Senator
from Missouri -- well, there we go. I mean, there is a -- there`s a
perfectly good campaign slogan, "I cherish women".

MCCASKILL: I cherish -- a couple of times, he said "the women".

O`DONNELL: He may burst into song with that, something --

MCCASKILL: We may -- we may end up with buying --

O`DONNELL: You know, he reminds me of someone. He reminds me of a guy I
think you might remember. Let`s take a look at this guy.


TODD AKIN, FORMER CONGRESSMAN: If it`s a legitimate rape, the female body
has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.


O`DONNELL: That was your opponent --


O`DONNELL: In your last Senate election and it turns out, you -- we
discovered in your book -- this is one of these great inside politics
stories that you were rooting for him to get that Republican nomination so
you could run against him.

MCCASKILL: Rooting for him, running ads for him, spending millions of
dollars for him, polling in the Republican primary.

O`DONNELL: How did you run an ad for him?

MCCASKILL: We polled to see what Republican voters liked most about him.
And then we put that in ad, paid for by me.

I approved this message but it said he is too conservative for Missouri
because of A, B, C and D. And first, it was coming from me --

O`DONNELL: Right --

MCCASKILL: Which the Republican primary voters -- if I think he is too
conservative as far as they`re concerned, they thought he probably was

And we put the things in the ad that we knew the Republican primary voters
were most interested in about him. And he didn`t have much money.

We ended up spending more for him than he`d spent in the entire primary
from my campaign and it worked in --

O`DONNELL: I remember that ad. Now, so, this would be like Hillary
Clinton might be able to push up Jeb Bush`s numbers by running an ad right
now, saying he is too conservative, paid for by Hillary Clinton.

MCCASKILL: That`s possible, although I`m not sure that she could pull that

O`DONNELL: Might not work in -- might not work in Trump world.

MCCASKILL: Might not work in --

O`DONNELL: So motor-mouth McCaskill --


O`DONNELL: That`s what your name is on this show from now on --


O`DONNELL: I learned that in the book, you got that nickname in school?

MCCASKILL: In school when I was young and the title of the book became --

O`DONNELL: Could the -- because talking too much --

MCCASKILL: Talking too much, talking quickly, talking loudly, being
opinionated and I had a teacher tell me --


O`DONNELL: It turns out there`s an occupation for that --

MCCASKILL: That`s true --


MCCASKILL: I had a teacher tell me that if I didn`t quit talking so much,
boys weren`t going to like me, that it wasn`t lady-like.

And then, after the debate with Todd Akin in 2012, he told the press that I
wasn`t lady-like. And that`s where the title comes from. I`m --

O`DONNELL: This is --

MCCASKILL: I want women to be ambitious --

O`DONNELL: And it`s so clear in here the prep you had for Todd Akin. He
was not the worst guy you encountered in government.

There is -- I`ve been trying to figure out how I refer to some of the
stories in this book. It`s 10:00 p.m., I can -- there`s a kneepad story in
this book. Can you --


O`DONNELL: Tell it clean enough for --


O`DONNELL: Right --

MCCASKILL: I went up to the speaker of the house, I was a brand new state
legislator in my 20s, single and I asked him for -- of the dais of the

I walked up to the dais and asked him if he could help me get my bill out -
- the committee, my first bill out of committee, and he looked at me and he
said Claire, did you bring your kneepads?

And he thought that was hysterically funny and I tried to pretend like I
thought it was funny and obviously I didn`t think it was funny.

I filed it away and it made me more determined to work around some of the
obstacles I faced and try to have a sense of humor. I`m not sure I handled
it right because I didn`t typically confront --

O`DONNELL: Yes, you didn`t confront him on it --


O`DONNELL: Right --

MCCASKILL: And maybe I should have, but I was so anxious to succeed and be
effective so that I could work around them and hopefully get hired by my
bosses for a bigger job.

And as it turned out, that worked out.

O`DONNELL: The -- you`ve endorsed Hillary Clinton --

MCCASKILL: I have --

O`DONNELL: In this race. There`s a fascinating story in the book about
your endorsing of Barack Obama against Hillary Clinton eight years ago.

And it`s all about your daughter Maddie(ph). You said, "my family had been
putting me on the spot about endorsing Obama, particularly my daughter

She got up, right in my face and said, I don`t know how you can look
yourself in the mirror in the morning. All my life you told me you`ll do -
- you have to do what you do because you want to make a difference.

The only reason that you`re not publicly endorsing this man is because you
are worried about your own political skin."

And you tell the story that you slept on it, you realized she was right and
you endorsed -- you called David Axelrod the next day.

What was it that you were worried about your own political skin? And was
that a worry you had about retribution from the Clintons?

MCCASKILL: It was more about women supporters. You know, there were so
many women. Whether it`s Ellen Malcolm who had been --

O`DONNELL: Sure --

MCCASKILL: Amazingly supportive of me and many campaigns at her great
organization that continues to this day is a power house, Emily`s List.

Women all over the country who had helped me get elected to the Senate,
women in my state that I had worked with for so many years, most of them
were all in for Hillary Clinton.

And I knew I would get a backlash and I knew it would be a lasting one.
So, I was -- I had trepidation about that, more so than the Clintons

You know, I think that this idea that they are vindictive, and I think some
of that is exaggerated. They have been very cordial and kind to me and I
look forward to working as hard for her as I did for Barack Obama to make
sure she gets elected for president.

O`DONNELL: And yes, I think the thing of senators don`t quite get about
this is, when -- you can make a political choice where you end up in
opposition to someone, but if you`re all going to stay in politics, that
person is going to need you again someday.

And --


O`DONNELL: When you come across and deliver later, it`s -- all these
things are forgotten. There is news on the Hillary Clinton e-mail server
front tonight.

There is this -- the -- her team is saying that they may be handing over
the private e-mail server, Hillary Clinton is going to turn over the server

This story, it turns out, is lasting longer than I think people
anticipated. The server may or may not have things on it that advance the

What is your advice to Hillary Clinton as a candidate in dealing with this?

MCCASKILL: I`d push as much to the public as quickly as possible. I do
not think that there is a smoking gun here.

I think in all likelihood, she was using her personal e-mail because at the
time it was legal and also because she had experience with people pawing
through her e-mails for personal information.

Whether it was a wedding of her daughter or the illness of her mother, I
think she felt fairly protective about some of her personal information.

Was trying to figure out a way to officially protect personal information
by -- and also respect government information.

So, I don`t think that there is anything here that is going to be, you
know, oh, my gosh, she was trying to sneak secrets to the Chinese.

I really don`t know --


MCCASKILL: What the allegation is here. Well, you know, what was her
motive? You know, was she trying to undo the United States of America,

O`DONNELL: But what is peculiar that if they`re handing over the server
now and there were calls to hand over the server months ago, we could have
skipped this whole period of months and months and months about where is
the server?

MCCASKILL: Well, she`s admitted she doesn`t think she`s handled this
correctly, or you know, she has second thoughts about the way she`s handled
the whole thing.

But she`s coming to testify again. She`s been in front of a very
antagonistic Congress numerous times. She is coming back again.

She`s released 55,000 pages of e-mails and now if her server comes
hopefully, the American people will begin to figure out that this is a
large part of political attack --

O`DONNELL: Your candidate for president is enthusiastically in favor of
the deal President Obama has struck with Iran.

Your future leader of the Senate, Chuck Schumer, the leader of your party
in the Senate, everyone anticipates he will be, has now opposed the
president on this deal, where are you?

MCCASKILL: I am calling the countries that hold the money. I know the
deal is not perfect but I want to know what the new status quo is going to
look like if we walk away.

The countries that hold the money are not in this deal. It`s Japan, South
Korea, India, China, China is in the deal.

I`m calling those countries and I want them to tell me if we walk away from
this deal, will you still respect the secondary sanctions of the United

Or is Iran going to get this money anyway? I think that`s a really
important thing to figure out before I make up my mind.

O`DONNELL: And lastly, on -- you represent Missouri, the troubles in
Ferguson over the weekend, the one year anniversary mark of the -- what
occurred there last year.

What`s your reaction to what`s going on there now and tonight?

MCCASKILL: By and large, we have had peaceful protests. We had an
outbreak of criminal activity on the periphery of the protests that
resulted in the shooting of a young man because he was shooting at police.

But by and large, this has been a peaceful protest, and -- by the way,
we`ve made some progress in Ferguson. We`ve got a long way to go.

But we`ve elected more African-Americans to the city council, we have an
African-American leading the Police Department.

We`ve reformed the municipal court, we`ve got job training programs going
on, we`ve got housing programs going on.

We are really trying as a community to come together and get past this
narrative of it`s the police versus the protesters.

O`DONNELL: Senator Claire McCaskill, the author of my new favorite book
about a woman`s life in politics "Plenty Ladylike".

MCCASKILL: Can you tell by that book I`m not running for president?


O`DONNELL: I -- there`s stuff in here you can`t say. There is just stuff

MCCASKILL: It`s true --

O`DONNELL: In here you cannot talk about on a family program. Thank you
very much --


O`DONNELL: And really --

MCCASKILL: Thanks, Lawrence --

O`DONNELL: Appreciate it coming in --

MCCASKILL: Good to see you --

O`DONNELL: Thank you --

MCCASKILL: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, as Republicans call Bernie Sanders a socialist, we
will take a look at which Republican candidates are doing socialist things

But first, Democratic candidate for president Lincoln Chafee will join us



MARTIN O`MALLEY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Shame on us as a party if the
DNC tries to limit debate and prevents us from being able to put forward a
better path for our people that will make the economy work for all of us
again. So I believe we need more debates, not fewer debates. And I think
it is outrageous actually that the DNC would try to make this process
decidedly un-Democratic.


LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC ANCHOR: That`s former Maryland governor, Martin
O`Malley, Democratic candidate for president. Joining us now is another
Democratic candidate for president, former senator and governor of Rhode
Island, Lincoln Chaffey.

What is your reaction to this six-debate schedule?

going to be many opportunities for us to get together and talk about the
issues. We were in Des Moines, Iowa, the five of us -- only five of us on
the Democratic side on the stage and we`re -- most of us are going to be
back in Iowa next week talking about the issues. Not necessarily debate

So I`m OK with the six that they scheduled and then there`ll be many other
forums where we will get together and talk about the issues.

O`DONNELL: It sounds like --

CHAFEE: Not necessarily a debate format.

O`DONNELL: Martin O`Malley has a campaign lawyer who`s talking about a
legal challenge to it saying that there is Federal Elections Commission
rules that say that the party cannot prevent you from participating in
other things. There`s this deal on the debates where you all say, OK, we
won`t -- we promise we won`t participate in anything else. And if you do
they`ll exclude you from their big debates. They`re saying that`s actually
against the law.

CHAFEE: We`ll let the lawyers figure that out.


CHAFEE: But I know that Governor O`Malley has been in politics a long
time. And my last run for governor I think we had just a few debate but I
think we have 30 opportunities to get together, all the candidate forums as
they`re called, talking about the particular issue that one advocacy group
has in front of us. So I think Governor O`Malley knows there`ll be plenty
of chances for us to get together.

O`DONNELL: I want to listen to what Chuck Schumer, senior senator from New
York, said about the Iran deal. As we all know he was -- at least prior to
this -- locked in as the next Democratic leader of the United States
Senate. Let`s listen to this.


SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: This deal has too many flaws to
support. And therefore, I must oppose it.


O`DONNELL: What`s your response to that?

CHAFEE: Well, just as President Obama said so many advocates for the
original invasion of Iraq, the mistake, the colossal mistake we made are
now opposing what I consider and President Obama considers the fix to the
mistake we made back in 2002 and 2003 when we invaded Iraq. And the vote -
- Senator Schumer voted for the war, I did not. And now we have to fix it.

having the Shia and the Iranians come together with the help of the Chinese
and the Russians and the Europeans who crafted the deal with the Americans
so important to deescalating the chaos that the advocates the war caused in
the Middle East.

O`DONNELL: Talk about what it`s like --

CHAFEE: A terrific mess with the Kurds, and the Turks, and the Shia and
the Sunnis, all because of that huge mistake we made. Now we have to try
and fix it with those people`s help that I mentioned, the Iranians,
Chinese, Russians, Europeans.

O`DONNELL: I`m very interested in insights you might have about making
governing decisions. In the Senate you had to make a decision about this
Iraq war and about this vote. You were under all the same pressures
everyone else was. You were getting -- you were hearing all of what turned
out to be a lot of the false information that everyone was. You were
sorting -- how did you sort that information? How did you come to your
vote? And what does it tell you about how to make governing decisions in
the White House?

CHAFEE: Well, as you know, as a Republican back then, and I had supported
Governor Bush in his campaign for the presidency. And he ran as a uniter,
not a divider, we`ll have a humble foreign policy, we`re going to regulate
carbon dioxide. When they got in they did the opposite. And so it`s a
character issue. I didn`t trust them. I didn`t trust them. And they came
in with big tax cut, arrogant with the world, and then when they`re talking
about weapons of mass destruction I had already learned not to trust them
because they went back on their campaign promises.

And so I wanted to know, are there really -- is there really evidence of
weapons of mass destruction? So I took the effort to go to the CIA, on my
own, alone, no staff. And met with about 20 analysts and said, I have to
vote on this in about three weeks, show me everything you have at the CIA
in Langley, and it was with over an hour-long meeting even they could --
they were emphatic about it look, Senator, it`s obvious this biological
chemical, they didn`t -- there was no enthusiasm for what they were showing

And that -- not only the bad evidence they were showing me but the lack of
body language and enthusiasm, I knew this was all a hoax. There`s another
reason, but it`s certainly wasn`t WMD. And the Downing Street memo and
other evidence that`s come out since supports that.


CHAFEE: There was another --

O`DONNELL: In your experience, how many senators bring that kind of
initiative to a question like that?

CHAFEE: Not enough.

O`DONNELL: And they`ll go to Langley on their own. I can tell you I`ve
never heard of it.

CHAFEE: Yes. You were in the Senate a long time.


CHAFEE: I take my work seriously, especially war. And I came through the
Vietnam era and to think we`re going to -- getting back into another
quagmire in all the veteran issues, not only the costs and the deaths but
the veterans, the post traumatic stress that go on for decades, and we kind
of just finished that with the Vietnam era, now we`re back in. So I wanted
to do my due diligence and work very, very carefully to make a good

O`DONNELL: We are out of --

CHAFEE: Now we`re going forward, though. That`s what`s important. That
was a mistake, now we have to fix it. And the Iran deal --

O`DONNELL: That will be -- that will be your last campaign word tonight.
Thank you very much for joining us.

CHAFEE: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Lincoln Chafee, we really appreciate it. And we`ll have you
back. You`re the only one apparently other than Hillary Clinton who thinks
the debate schedule is OK.

All right. We`ll bring you back here.

Coming up, Bernie Sanders sparking new conversations about socialism.
Former Republican candidate for president Tim Pawlenty and I will finish
our conversation about socialism that we started here last week.

And later, police in Arlington, Texas, made an announcement about the
officer who shot and killed this unarmed teenager at a car dealership there
late last week.


O`DONNELL: The chief of police in Arlington, Texas, has fired the police
officer who shot and killed an unarmed 19-year-old man during a break-in at
a car dealership on Friday. The police were called to the dealership after
Christian Taylor allegedly kicked in the windshield of a car and then
crashed his jeep into the dealership showroom. Police say they found
Christian Taylor roaming inside the dealership and that he refused police
orders to get on the ground and told an officer he was there to steal a

Police say Officer Brad Miller, a recruit who is still undergoing
supervised field training, entered the building alone without telling other
officers. The chief said that decision put other officers at risk.


as to the rationale articulated for the use of deadly force in this
incident. These concerns, however, are best addressed through the criminal
investigation process. However, based on a preponderance of the evidence
available to me and the facts revealed by the investigative team, I have
decided to terminate Officer Miller`s employment with the Arlington Police
Department for exercising poor judgment.


O`DONNELL: Up next, good socialism versus bad socialism.



independent and if you look at C-SPAN they will say independent, one vote,
that`s me. But philosophically, you know, I am a Democratic socialist.


O`DONNELL: Bernie Sanders has been attacked for being a socialist by both
Democrats and Republicans who don`t seem to realize that they are
socialists, too, as "Newsweek" announced to the country six weeks ago with
this cover. "We are All Socialists Now." By which "Newsweek" meant that
most of what the federal government does now is fund and administer
socialist programs, such as Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

Those programs alone account for a good half of the federal budget and then
of course at the time of the "Newsweek" cover there was the federal
government bank bailout which was a major socialist intervention in the
affairs of Wall Street, the private sector, in an attempt to do everything
possible to avoid a banking disaster.

And as I`ve said many times on this program, there is good socialism and
bad socialism and America`s absolute worst socialism is, of course, sports
socialism in which state and local governments hand over massive subsidies
to billionaires, the billionaire owners of sports teams, to build new
playgrounds for them where they will then employ quarterbacks making $26
million a year and short stops making $17 million a year.

The latest egregious example of sports socialism is being visited upon us
by someone who has no idea that he is a socialist.

Tomorrow, Wisconsin`s governor Scott Walker will officially sign away $400
million of Wisconsin taxpayer money so that the Milwaukee Bucks can play in
a new arena. Needless to say, the owners of the Bucks are contributors to
Scott Walker`s presidential campaign and his super PAC. Economists have
studied the effects of building new stadiums around the country and have
not been able to find any economic benefits, except to the billionaire
owners of sports teams and the millionaire players they employ.

Back with us is former Republican governor of Minnesota, Tim Pawlenty.

Governor Pawlenty, last week we sort of got side tracked into a discussion
of socialism sparked by Bernie Sanders. I think that conversation is going
to keep coming up again and again as long as we have a self-proclaimed
socialist candidate for president out there. And so I just want to take a
little more time, give you a little more air on this. And what do you make
of this big socialist giveaway that Scott Walker is embarking on in the pro
sports arena?

Lawrence. But let`s just start with the basics. Words have meanings.
There are definitions associated with these labels. Bernie isn`t running
from the label socialist, he acknowledges he is a socialist and if you go
to Merriam-Webster they define socialists as somebody who supports the
government controlling and owning the means of production and distribution.

And the capitalists of course means the private sector does that and it`s
on a continuum and there`s room in between those two with things but if you
give an incentive or a subsidy, that doesn`t necessarily mean you are
controlling or owning the means of production or distribution. So these
words and labels have meaning. I think pro sports, there`s enough money in
it to build their own stadiums, but they don`t. So there is a distorted
market for sure.

I built when I was governor, paid for a University of Minnesota football
stadium, that is a public institution, by the way, and we allowed a local
county to support our Twin Stadium, but this happens all over the country
and there`s no doubt that`s government funneling money in to a private
enterprise to either incentivize an account or subsidize an outcome.

But that`s not the definition directly as socialism that I cited a moment
ago. Bernie just says, hey, look, I`m a socialist, flat out. He doesn`t
say I`m a liberal or I`m a Democrat or I`m for more government. He says
I`m a socialist.

O`DONNELL: Well, Social Security is a socialist program. It is a program
being run by the government on purely socialist terms. It was imported
from Europe, as was Medicare. These are all European socialist ideas that
have taken over our government. But rather than --

PAWLENTY: We all pay for Social Security, Lawrence. I mean, the -- it is
certainly a government program.

O`DONNELL: Well, the thing about Social Security is many of us pay far
less than we get back from Social Security and many others pay far more
than they get back from Social Security so it is not doing some sort of
neutral distribution at all.

PAWLENTY: That`s true. That`s accurate. That`s right.

O`DONNELL: But anyway, let me get back to the sports socialism thing
because you actually signed the bill in Minnesota that funded the -- what
is it, the Target Field where the Twins play?

PAWLENTY: That`s right. That`s right.

O`DONNELL: But you -- and you initially, when you were a state
representative, you opposed it but then when you`re a governor you went
along with one of these deals.

PAWLENTY: Well, we would -- just so you know, we allowed Hennepin County
to raise a tax to pay for it. It wasn`t a state thing but we authorized
them to do if they wanted to. I would argue tongue and cheek, by the way,
it`s not owning or controlling the means of production because the Twins
haven`t produced.

O`DONNELL: All right. Well, there`s that. But yes, I mean, you enacted
this tax which in it of itself is kind of anti-Republican dogma.

PAWLENTY: No, the county did, but I understand your point.

O`DONNELL: Yes. And that money was used to fund this playground for these
rich athletes and for these rich sports team owners.

PAWLENTY: That`s right. But again if you accept the definition, as has
long been standing that I cited earlier, government owning and controlling
the means of production and distribution. The county doesn`t own, the
state doesn`t own the Twins. We`re not the manager of the Twins. We don`t
manage the distribution of what they do. So but -- if Bernie, if he says
he`s a socialist, I mean, that -- like I said, words meaning.

I think if you look at what he`s voted for and what he`s done is more in
line with being a liberal Democrat. I`m not sure why he`s so willingly
grabs that label. And I was trying to make the point last week, which you
bristled at, that look, the country isn`t ready to elect a self-avowed
socialist. That`s not, you know, necessarily a personal attack on Bernie.
It`s just that socialism and the United States are not in alignment at this
moment. And they`re just not.

O`DONNELL: Well, as economists see it, well, there is no pure socialist
state in the world. And there is no pure capitalist state in the world.
They are all what we call mixed economies. They are mixes of socialism,
mixes of capitalism. We mix socialism into our professional sports. We
mix it into our Social Security, our health care system. And the
accusation against Medicare and against Social Security when they were
being voted on the Senate was that they were socialism.

And that was exactly right. They -- those are socialist programs. But
we`re out of time for it tonight, Governor. I`m glad we had more time to
air it out. And I`d like --

PAWLENTY: Next time -- next time you can continue your defense of Richard
Nixon`s policies.


O`DONNELL: The Tim Pawlenty that I`m a big fan of is that young rep -- the
state rep who was opposed to using -- you said you don`t want to use state
money to subsidize billionaire team owners, millionaire athletes and the
privileged elite who attend games in opulent, luxury boxes.

Boy, I agree with that guy.

Governor Tim Pawlenty, it`s always a pleasure. Thank you very much for
joining us tonight.

PAWLENTY: All right, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

Coming up, police in St. Louis have released this new video about what
happened in Ferguson, Missouri, Sunday night.


O`DONNELL: And now for the good news. Very good news. The LAST WORD
picked up a new viewer last night. Joseph Michael Cramer was born one
minute before the show started last night. His mother Joanne Denyeau is a
producer of this program and she took her first day of maternity leave
yesterday. Just in time.

Joseph Michael arrived at 8 pounds, 13 ounces, and is now just 18 years
away from being old enough to be counted in our audience ratings. Let`s
hope he gets a Nielsen box for his 18th birthday. Now get some sleep,


O`DONNELL: The state of emergency is still in place tonight in St. Louis
County after violence in Ferguson on Sunday. The emergency order could be
lifted tomorrow if things remain calm there tonight. Earlier today, St.
Louis Police released surveillance video showing what they say is 18-year-
old Tyrone Harris brandishing a handgun during an exchange of gunfire
Sunday night. The gunfire occurred near demonstrations marking the one-
year anniversary of Michael Brown`s death. Tyrone Harris was shot by
police in that incident and remains in critical condition.

Joining us now by phone is Antonio French, alderman of the 21st Ward in St.

Alderman French, what is your reaction to that video that was released

visual of the kind of chaos that was there. You can actually -- you know,
I saw myself in the video. I was one of the folks running. There was a
few gunshots first and then there were just gunshots seemingly coming from
everywhere. And you can clearly see that young man holding a gun and then
running forward. And probably shooting it when he gets out of frame there.
But it was just chaotic. I`m glad no one else got hurt.

O`DONNELL: And why were you -- why were people there in that particular
spot and why were you there?

FRENCH: So what had happened was that there was a protest. It became a
very familiar sight from last August where the police had come out in riot
gear. There was a brief confrontation between protesters and the police.
Many of us tried to calm things down and diffuse the situation just to make
sure no violence occurred. And after a while that crowd broke up. And
some people -- and went towards north on West (INAUDIBLE) where the
businesses were and kind of gathered back there.

And after a while, there seemed to be some activity. So I walked down
there along with some others and we actually saw one reporter coming back
who had gotten beaten up and robbed and some businesses are broken into.
And so I was back there blocking an open broken window to keep looters out.
And then gunshots started ringing out.

O`DONNELL: And there was a lot of doubt expressed by people who knew him
that he could possibly have had a gun. Does this video, do you think, help
to clear the air?

FRENCH: Well, you know, I don`t -- I didn`t know Tyrone Harris. I don`t
know what he looks like. The police say that it`s him and they have
identified him in that video. But I know a lot of people had guns out
there. And I know a lot of people had come to these events to use the
cover of protest to commit crimes and to do violent acts and so, you know,
if someone had a gun out there and was shooting, whether they were shooting
at police or anybody else, there were children out there.

There were people out there. And that is not the environment for a gun.
And definitely he shouldn`t be shooting at people. That`s a criminal act.
That`s no longer a protest. That`s a criminal act. So yes. You know,
it`s unfortunate that that night was marred with violence of any kind.
But, you know, we just have to move forward.

O`DONNELL: Antonio French, thank you very much for joining us tonight with
that eyewitness account of what happened there. Thank you very much.

Chris Hayes is up next.


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