updated 8/18/2015 9:26:04 AM ET 2015-08-18T13:26:04

Date: August 17, 2015
Guest: Robert Costa, Omarosa Manigault, Zerlina Maxwell, Amos Brown, Ari
Berman, April Ryan, Adolfo Franco

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Trump wants all illegal immigrants out of the
country. Does that include the man you, Mr. Trump, have spent all these
years calling an illegal immigrant? Does that include the president of the
United States?

Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

The man who spent years declaring the president of the United States an
illegal immigrant now has a plan for 11 million of them -- send them all

Question. Mr. Trump, does that mean Mr. Obama, too? Does he have to go
back to that country you said he was from, or should we forget all that?
And by the way, what would we take seriously that you have to say, Mr.

NBC`s Katy Tur joins us now from lower Manhattan, where Donald Trump
reported for jury duty today. Katy, what a wild goose chase you`re on as a
reporter. You go to jury duty to follow Donald Trump. He`s been released.

How do you explain that crowd out at the courthouse today?

KATY TUR, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, everywhere he goes, he draws a big
crowd. The vast majority, though, today were reporters, and whenever we
see go to him in New Hampshire or Iowa or South Carolina or Arizona or
Michigan, he`s always drawing a lot of reporters specifically because no
one is quite sure what exactly he`s going to say. I don`t think his staff
even knows what`s going to come out of his mouth half the time.

But also, when you`re there, you are seeing very large crowds of
supporters. Even here today, when people were realizing that he was coming
out of the courthouse, there were lot of pedestrians on the street who
stopped to cheer for him. He even signed a dollar bill.

But in places -- the early voting states, places like Iowa, New Hampshire
and South Carolina, immigration does seem to be very hot topic for them.
Even though they`re not directly involved in the immigration battle, if you
will -- they`re not border states by any means -- they do seem to have
immigration as one of their higher priorities, and he does seem to be
appealing to those people, speaking to them directly, telling him that he
will get those undocumented immigrants out.

It`s unclear, though, if he was able to factor in how much that would cost
into his plan. He said that he would fund the border wall but basically
upping the fees for visas, among other things. But in order to get the 11
million undocumented immigrants out of this country, independent analysis
says it would cost anywhere--


TUR: -- between $1 billion and $2 billion. And we were asking him about
that today, whether or not he factored that in. He dodged that question,
basically saying that this is our country and we need to close the borders,
get them out and make it great again.

MATTHEWS: Katy Tur, thanks for that report from the courthouse. What a
strange world we live in.

Trump released his first big policy position over the weekend. It was
hard-line and it was on immigration. It sets out three principles -- a
nation a nation without borders is not a nation, a nation without laws is
not a nation, a nation that does not serve its own citizens is not a
nation. Hard to argue with those principles.

Anyway, in an interview on "MEET THE PRESS" yesterday Trump made clear that
anyone who entered this country illegally must be made to leave it.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have to make a whole new set
of standards. And when people come in, they have to come--

CHUCK TODD, MODERATOR, "MEET THE PRESS": You`re going to split up

TRUMP: Chuck--

TODD: You`re going to deport children.

TRUMP: Chuck -- no, no. We`re going to keep the families together. We
have to keep the families together.

TODD: But you`re going to (INAUDIBLE)

TRUMP: But they have to go. But they have to go.

TODD: What if they have no place to go?

TRUMP: We will work with them. They have to go. Chuck, we either have a
country or we don`t have a country.

TODD: It`s not clear--

TRUMP: Chuck, it`ll work out so well. You will be so happy. In four
years, you`re going to be interviewing me and you`re going to say, What a
great job you`ve done, President Trump.


MATTHEWS: Robert Costa`s national political reporter for "The Washington
Post." David Corn is the Washington bureau chief for "Mother Jones." And
Eugene Robinson is a Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist with "The Washington
Post," who yesterday appeared finally on "MEET THE PRESS."


MATTHEWS: Thank you (INAUDIBLE) Let me -- let me -- let me tell you why I
think Trump is going to get paid (ph) in (ph) on this in Iowa. Everybody
else uses the politically appropriate term of "undocumented workers,"
doesn`t even say immigrants. If you`re saying "undocumented workers,"
you`re not going to try to get those people out of the country. You`ve
already accepted them, it`s just a different kind of word (ph). They left
their driver`s license at home. It`s just a question of getting the right
paperwork in their hands. That immediately conveys the idea you`re not
serious about illegal immigration.

He, on the other hand, says, `I`m talking about illegal immigrants." Now,
he`s crazy when he talks about the president, and that establishes to me --
I don`t know why he does anything he does in public life because you say
things like that, you can`t be taken seriously.

But on the issue of immigration and the voter, I think the voter here is --
This guy means it! David--


MATTHEWS: He`s not one of these guys jockeying how to keep the Hispanic
groups happy, how to keep the Catholic church happy, how to keep the
farmers happy. I just want to say the truth. He sounds like truth.

CORN: Well, and his policy proposals, which he put out today -- the
particulars don`t even matter that much. I think anywhere from 10 to 25,
maybe even 30 percent of the Republican primary base are people who want
someone who is angry and as outraged as they feel. They don`t like
pressing one for English, two for Spanish, and they want someone who`s just
going to be like your uncle who says, This is what I believe, and the
particulars don`t matter. They want--

MATTHEWS: By the way--


CORN: -- the hatred!

MATTHEWS: Slow down for a second. I will give him a little more credit
than hatred. You don`t agree with him, fine. But there`s another point of
view out there. Do we have a border plan that anybody else will enforce?
Now, I give credit at the end of the show to Schumer and to Lindsey Graham
because they signed onto the bipartisan bill, which does stop people from
getting hired illegally in this country.

But all these other politicians are pander bears! Nobody wants to say
anything about illegal immigration for fear of losing the Hispanic vote!
What`s he doing? At least he`s saying something!

ROBERT COSTA, "WASHINGTON POST": And he`s sending a huge message to the
base. Look who he sought counsel from, the one--

MATTHEWS: Bush ain`t going to say this!

COSTA: -- U.S. senator he called was Jeff Sessions of Alabama, who`s the
favorite of the conservative activists.

MATTHEWS: Who has a bill.

COSTA: They love him.


COSTA: -- a true border hawk. He`s saying, Look, I may be liberal on
other issues, I may have disappointed you and may have been a Democrat, but
on the things that matter, on immigration, I`m with you on the hard right.

MATTHEWS: And he -- Gene, he says something.


MATTHEWS: You can -- like you disagree with it, you don`t like the sound
or the smell of what he says.


MATTHEWS: But you know what he`s saying! At least we know that! We don`t
know what -- what are these other guys saying?

ROBINSON: Absolutely. He says something, and people apparently eat it up.
Now, what he says is totally impossible, right? I mean, let`s just
establish that. It`s totally impossible--

MATTHEWS: Well, I think it`s immoral, too.


MATTHEWS: -- and their roots here -- I don`t think -- I don`t think --
you`d have to be pretty right-wing--

ROBINSON: In fact--

MATTHEWS: -- to pick up some guy who`s been here--

CORN: Well, there are millions--

ROBINSON: It matters less that it`s impossible than that he says it.


MATTHEWS: Why is it important?

ROBINSON: He says it forcefully, and he continues to say it.

MATTHEWS: Why is it important again, why he gets -- because it`s going to
help him carry Iowa!


ROBINSON: You know, in Iowa especially--


CORN: There are millions of Republicans, I think, who want, who actually
want these people deported. They may agree it can happen or not happen,
but they want to see the effort. And he says, I`m going to try it. This
has to happen.

MATTHEWS: So a guy who`s opened up a flower shop, the guy who`s opened up
a paper delivery system--

CORN: Out! Out!


MATTHEWS: -- he`s gone.

CORN: Out.

COSTA: But what`s the real political credit--


ROBINSON: He`s not really gone. He`s not going legally, but--

MATTHEWS: See, I would like to think, because I`m a reasonable person,
that there`s a happy medium between that crazy talk and doing nothing,
which is make it -- remove the incentives for the guy sneaking across the
border tomorrow night!


CORN: That was the bipartisan Senate bill!

MATTHEWS: I know. But Trump`s plan immediately won over Iowa hard-liners,
like Congressman -- talk about the crazy -- well, who knows -- Steve King,
who`s attacked illegal immigrants in the harshest terms like -- oh, God,
cantaloupes -- he`s called the plan bold, strong and whatever.

Anyway, Wisconsin governor Scott Walker also finds himself now trailing
behind Trump in Iowa. Now he sounds like he likes Trump. In an interview
with Fox News today, Governor Walker made it sound as if he, too, has
wanted to build a wall at the border.


year, I was on "Fox News Sunday" and laid out what I thought we should do,
which is secure the border, which means build the wall, have the
technology, have the personnel to make sure it`s safe and secure--


MATTHEWS: We should note that Walker never mentioned a wall in the
interview he was referring to, never mentioned! But now he`s all for it.

That was just the start of it. Today, Governor Walker also came out
against automatic citizenship for children of those who entered the country
illegally -- in other words, the 14th Amendment. Well, here`s Walker with
MSNBC`s Kasie Hunt.


KASIE HUNT, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Do you think that birthright citizenship
should be ended?

WALKER: Well, like I said, Harry Reid said it`s not right for this
country. I think that`s something we should -- yes, absolutely, going
forward, I think (INAUDIBLE)

HUNT: We should end birthright citizenship?

WALKER: Yes. To me, it`s about enforcing the laws of this country.


MATTHEWS: You know, (INAUDIBLE) the 14th Amendment, which came out of the
Civil War and basically was to protect the newly enfranchised African-
Americans. It also happened to say that if you`re born in this country,
you`re a citizen. It`s really simple! And he wants to get rid of that


ROBINSON: -- talk about enforcing the laws of this country -- that`s the
law of this country!


MATTHEWS: That would take three quarters of the states to basically get
rid of the 14th Amendment, as we now know it, which I think the American
people, as anguished as they might be in certain quarters, are not going to
change the Constitution on this.

COSTA: Least surprising interview I`ve seen all day. I`ve been on the
phone with donors to Walker, Huckabee, Carson. They see all this stuff
happening with Trump, and they think they`ve got to move right now in Iowa
because Trump is moving up.

MATTHEWS: You know what they reminded me of? You know what they remind me


MATTHEWS: No, remember -- remember the movie "Doctor Strangelove," one of
the great movies ever? Remember Slim Pickens riding the rocket? They`re
all riding Trump! They`re all going, Yahoo!


MATTHEWS: This is great! They`re all riding Trump. To where? To where?


COSTA: -- Iowa bounce. What happens, because a lot of these guys--

MATTHEWS: How do you -- how do you get--


CORN: -- at the next debate--

COSTA: -- evangelical--


MATTHEWS: Robert Costa, how do you get Trump`s vote--

COSTA: When you talk to allies of Huckabee, Santorum, they all say, Remind
the evangelicals in Iowa, who love Trump on immigration, that he`s not one
with them on the social issues.



CORN: But I think on the immigration issue, they`re going to see people
trying to get even to his right, and probably in the next debate, you`ll
have a debate with each candidate saying, I`ll build it 20 feet high, 24
feet high--

MATTHEWS: OK, let me--

CORN: -- 28 feet high!


ROBINSON: -- try to out-Trump Trump.


ROBINSON: I`m sorry. It`s not going to work.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, here`s the latest polling--

CORN: They`re going to try!


MATTHEWS: -- he continues to lap the field. In new a Fox News poll just
out now making headlines, Trump leads with 25 percent. He`s 13 points
ahead of Ben Carson and 15 points ahead of Ted Cruz. Jeb Bush is in single
digits. Something`s not working for Jeb. By the way, he`s very pro-

Anyway, Trump is narrowing the gap against Hillary Clinton. Now, this is
the big number, this is a Fox number, but in June, Clinton, Mrs. Clinton,
the secretary, trounced Trump by 17 points in a hypothetical match-up.
It`s not getting so hypothetical, actually. Now Clinton`s leading--


MATTHEWS: -- Trump by just 5 points, 5 points! That`s--


ROBINSON: -- couple things have happened. One, Trump has become a genuine
candidate for president of the United States. Now, I think we have to
agree on that. He is a candidate, and people are saying he could be a
candidate. I can`t--


MATTHEWS: Anybody here think--


MATTHEWS: OK, Is it plausible? I want to test this. We have three smart


MATTHEWS: Can you answer this question? Is his nomination by the
Republican Party plausible?

COSTA: Republican Party has--

MATTHEWS: Is it plausible? I`m pretending (ph) to ask you a question.

COSTA: Crowded field? Yes.

MATTHEWS: Is it plausible?

CORN: Not plausible, possible.

ROBINSON: It`s certainly possible.

MATTHEWS: Oh, possible, certainly possible and plausible.

Anyway, thank you.


MATTHEWS: Thank you, Robert Costa, David Corn. We have -- the jury has
reached its decision. Look out!


MATTHEWS: Gene Robinson, Robert Costa and David Corn.

Coming up -- Donald Trump says he cherishes women. That`s a good line --
cherishes all women. What`s this about? Can he earn their vote? I`ll
speak with a woman who knows him well, former "Apprentice" contestant
Omarosa Manigault.

Plus, this front page news in "USA Today" today -- Biden poses threat to
Clinton. But will the vice president actually move from showing interest,
as he apparently is, to actually jumping in? That`s our question tonight.

And speaking of questions, elections all come down to, I believe, a simple
yes or no. Do you like how things are going in your party right now? How
about the country? Where the candidates stand on those key points, yes or
no? It`s binary.

And we`ll remember the life and legacy of Julian Bond as Civil Rights icon
who spent his life fighting for equality. And I remember him from the `68
Democratic convention in Chicago. He was one bright light then.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Well, this is wild. Wisconsin governor Scott Walker took on
protesters today who showed up for his "Soapbox" appearance at the Iowa
State Fair.


WALKER: (INAUDIBLE) a great test with the protesters because you think you
want someone tough. There`s a lot of people that talk tough. I`m the only
one who stood up to 100,000 protesters, stood up to the big union bosses.
I`ll stand up to Washington, regardless of party, and fight for the
American people!

Again, unintimidated! I am not intimidated by you, sir, or anyone else out
there! I will fight for the American people over and over and over and
over again! You want someone who`s tested? I`m right here! You can see


MATTHEWS: Walker talks there about standing up to the union bosses.
Actually, a new Gallup poll shows that 58 percent, a strong number of
Americans, approve of labor unions generally. The all-time low was back in
2009, when it was 48 percent. So the unions are coming back, generally

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Donald Trump has now honed a fairly
reliable stump speech in his quest for the 2016 Republican nomination for
president. He has issues with China, Jeb Bush and immigrants, of course,
most lately. And lately, he`s added one emphatic promise to our country.


TRUMP: I will be great on women`s health issues. I cherish women. And I
will be great on women`s health issues, believe me.

I will help on women`s health issues more than anybody, including on the
Democratic side. Women`s health issues -- you watch. You watch.

I cherish women. I mean, my mother was this incredible woman. I have
great children. I have a great wife. I cherish women.


MATTHEWS: Well, these assurances came after the debate GOP, obviously, out
in Cleveland and his remark then to moderator Megyn Kelly the following
night after that debate.


TRUMP: She gets out and she starts asking me all sorts of ridiculous
questions, and you know, you could see there was blood coming out of her
eyes, blood coming out of her -- wherever.


MATTHEWS: Wherever. Anyway, in the wake of that firestorm, can Trump`s
promise to cherish women voters win over women voters?

Well, joining me right now is Zerlina Maxwell, who writes for "Essence" --
that`s a great magazine. And also with me is the woman -- a woman who
knows Donald Trump quite well. Omarosa Manigault has worked for Trump
Productions. She`s appeared on 75 episodes of "The Apprentice" over the
course of three years.

And so here we go, Omarosa. We have to get you here, but let`s take a look
at a couple things. Let`s look at this first.



MANIGAULT: Your mama should know. Your mama should know, Piers.


MANIGAULT: Your mama should know.

PIERS MORGAN, TALK SHOW HOST: -- Omarosa, and remember--

MANIGAULT: Your mama should know.

MORGAN: -- I`m on this side this time.

MANIGAULT: Who cares? Donald makes the ultimate decision. Don`t get it
twisted. This is not CNN.

I`m a grown woman. I run a company. I run half of the West Coast for "OK"
magazine. You`re not going to--


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Omarosa, easy! Omarosa, easy, easy, easy!


MANIGAULT: -- all about making good TV, and we`ve done that for 10 years
and 13 seasons.

TRUMP: We have done that. I agree.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, Omarosa`s made hundreds of thousands of dollars working
with Donald Trump and has a unique perspective on the 2016 race since she
also worked in the Clinton White House.

Thank you for joining us, Omarosa. (INAUDIBLE) and I want Zerlina to get
in on this. It`s an open discussion. I`m actually going to fade a little
bit here.

Tell me what it`s like -- all my life, I`ve worked for politicians, worked
with them or watched them, and oftentimes, there`s a tremendous difference
between what you see on television from them, and sometimes, it`s worse.
Sometimes it may be better. Most of the time, they`re better in person.

But is Donald Trump better in person or different in person when you get --
when the lights go off and you go back to the Green Room and you talk him
about the show? How is he different professionally than he is

MANIGAULT: You know, I don`t think people realize that Donald Trump has an
incredible sense of humor. He`s funny. He`s laid back. You know, he has
a lot of chill. If you knew him, he has a great swag (ph), too. And you
don`t really see that. That doesn`t translate because they`ve kind of
managed to make him look like a caricature of himself. But he is a really
fun guy to be around, and he`s not always so serious.

MATTHEWS: Who created that picture of him that you describe, the

MANIGAULT: You know, I saw a caricature where they`re making fun of his
hair or he`s -- you know, he`s got his hand out doing the, "You`re fired"
hand. I mean, people make fun of all the big moments, but there are also
very significant moments that people miss.

Donald Trump does care about women. He has worked to make sure that people
know his passion, and we`re going to have to know more about his positions
on issues that are important to women, and you`ll see that in the next
couple of weeks.

MATTHEWS: OK, let`s take a look at what he said about Carly Fiorina, a
woman who`s running against him. She`s risen in the polls. Trump`s going
after her. He tweeted this after Fiorina took a swipe at him at the
Cleveland debate. Quote, "I just realized that if you listen to Carly
Fiorina for more than 10 minutes straight, you develop a massive headache.
She has zero chance."

Your reaction to that quickly? And then we will go to Zerlina.

MANIGAULT: I think that, at the next debate, you`re going to see them kind
of sic Carly on Donald Trump.


MATTHEWS: Who is they? Who is they?

MANIGAULT: I think the Republican establishment is very intimidated by
Donald Trump. They can`t control him.


MATTHEWS: And they can control Carly.


MANIGAULT: They can manage Carly, but they cannot manage Trump.

MATTHEWS: Why do you assume that they would control the woman -- the only
woman candidate running?

MANIGAULT: Do you know what? She`s going to fall in line. She`s indebted
to the donors who give money to the Republican primaries. She`s indebted
to their positioning. She`s indebted to FOX News.

Donald Trump is unfiltered. He`s unbothered. He`s unbought, he`s
unbossed. You can`t control him. And so you are going to see in this
debate, you just watch, Chris, they are going to sic her on him, and she`s
going to go and she`s going to get tore up.



MATTHEWS: I don`t miss anything, Omarosa. Thank you. But stick with us,
Omarosa. Just hang in there.


MATTHEWS: You have a point of view we haven`t heard on this show lately.

But we want to hear from Zerlina.

Zerlina, what do you make of what you just heard?

ZERLINA MAXWELL, "ESSENCE": Well, I mean, I`m sure that Donald Trump might
be a nice guy to people that he likes or women that he likes who are in his
inner circle and that he has given sort of the stamp of approval to.

The problem, though, is that he`s trying to attract women as voters. And
you don`t do that by making period jokes or talking about people`s

MANIGAULT: Well, he never made a period joke.


MAXWELL: He has a long history -- he has a very long history of talking
about women, either dismissing them as bimbos, like he did with Megyn Kelly
last week, or calling them ugly dogs, like he did with Rosie O`Donnell or
"The New York Times" columnist Gail Collins.

I just think that he has to put forth specific policy propels. He hasn`t
said whether or not he is going to defund Planned Parenthood or shut down
the government over Planned Parenthood.

MANIGAULT: He has made statements about that.

MAXWELL: And so I think that as he`s talking in specifics -- and also I
think he should, you know, say look, I was inarticulate or said things that
were offensive about women, and now I don`t think those things.

I think that the fact that he keeps saying things makes us women and women
voters believe he might believe women`s place is in the home or women`s
place is only to be decoration.

MANIGAULT: He has never said that, nor did he make a period joke.


MAXWELL: He did make a period joke. That was a period joke.


MANIGAULT: He did not say anything about her period. But let`s just get
to some real issues.


MATTHEWS: Let`s stop for a second. Ladies, just one second.


MANIGAULT: There are some important issues, but name-calling is not an
important issue.

MAXWELL: No, I`m not calling him names.


MATTHEWS: Let me ask you all, why did -- let me ask you, Omarosa, why --
Omarosa, why do you think women thought he was talking about menstrual
there? I don`t know what he was talking -- I can`t read minds.


MANIGAULT: He said, "or whatever." You have to be vulgar to think that he
was talking about a woman`s period. Let`s not go crazy here.

Donald Trump really did feel that where she was coming from was not with
good intention. If she wanted to know where he stood on women`s issues,
she would have asked a question about a women`s policy-issue-based question
like wage gap and gender-based--


MATTHEWS: Would have he said blood coming out of your eyes or wherever to
a male? Just asking.

MANIGAULT: Let me tell you--


MANIGAULT: If that question about--


MATTHEWS: Well, why did he say to it to a woman?

MANIGAULT: -- Rosie O`Donnell was asked by any of the male moderators or
about his bankruptcy asked by any of the male moderators, he would have
went after them just as aggressively. Let`s not paint with a big old


MATTHEWS: I`m asking.

MANIGAULT: Just because he insulted Rosie O`Donnell does not mean that he
does not like all women.


MAXWELL: I did not articulate that he didn`t like all women. I`m saying
that there`s a long history of similar remarks.


MANIGAULT: You specifically talked about the names that -- he responded to
her when she insulted his family. And I will tell you, you come up to my
family, I`m coming after you, too.


MATTHEWS: OK. Omarosa, will you vote for Donald Trump?

MANIGAULT: I`m a Democrat. I can`t even vote in a Republican primary.
But I am his friend and I can speak to his character.

MATTHEWS: Well, wait a minute. If he`s candidate for president of the
Republican Party, would you vote for him?

MANIGAULT: I can`t wait to see him go toe to toe with Hillary Clinton.
And as soon as that happens, then I will make that decision, Chris.

MATTHEWS: But you can imagine -- you can imagine voting for him?

MANIGAULT: Well, I could imagine voting for the person who advances my


MATTHEWS: No, no, come on. Don`t get -- you`re such a pol.


MANIGAULT: You know my position. You know I have worked for the Clintons.
You know that I worked in the White House. I never hedged on that.


MATTHEWS: But you can`t -- I`m asking you a simple question and this is an
easy yes or no.



MATTHEWS: Can you imagine voting for Donald Trump?

MANIGAULT: It depends.

MATTHEWS: You can`t imagine or you can imagine it?

MANIGAULT: It depends. I would like to see, just like the rest of
America, where his positions are on key issues.

MATTHEWS: To what effect? Do you want to see those--


MANIGAULT: In the African-American community, I want to know if he`s going
to be hard or soft on the economy, whether he`s going to create job
opportunities in my community and where does he stand on education?

MATTHEWS: And if he does? And if he does?


MANIGAULT: And if he does, I would consider it, absolutely.


MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you.

And you, Zerlina, would never vote for him in a million years, right?

MAXWELL: No, I`m not voting for Donald Trump.


MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you. I love clarity.

Thank you both for coming on, Omarosa Manigault and Zerlina Maxwell.

MANIGAULT: Thanks, Chris.

MATTHEWS: An interesting discussion.

Coming up, remembering a civil rights icon. Talk about a change of pace.
Julian Bond, his legacy on civil rights and voting rights up next.

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

Tributes continue to pour in for the civil rights icon Julian Bond, who
died this weekend. President Obama said in a statement -- quote -- "Julian
Bond was a hero and I`m privileged to say a friend. He helped change this
country for the better and what better way to be remembered than that?"

That`s a next statement.

A founder of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, SNCC, Bond was
elected in the Georgia General Assembly at the age of 25. Three years
later came this dramatic moment. I will never forget it, the Democratic
National Convention, when Julian Bond`s name was put in nomination for vice


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wish to offer a nomination, the wave of the future.
It may be a symbolic nomination tonight, but it may not be symbolic four
years hence. We offer a nomination with the greatest pleasure, the name of
Julian Bond.



MATTHEWS: Boy, did he look good then. He was only like 28. I think he
wasn`t even legal enough to be vice presidential nominee. You had to be 30
to do that. You have to be 30 to do that.

Anyway, Julian Bond went on to become chairman of the NAACP and remained a
strong champion of civil rights, as we all know. And in recent years, he
spoke up passionately in favor of same-sex marriage. Here he is.


JULIAN BOND, FORMER CHAIRMAN, NAACP: When someone asks me are gay rights
civil rights, my answer is always, of course they are. Gay and lesbian
rights are not special rights in any way. It isn`t special to be free from
discrimination. It is an ordinary universal entitlement of citizenship.



MATTHEWS: That`s why he had 25 honorary degrees. The man could speak
clearly about what it is to be an American.

Anyway, voting rights remained a defining issue for him. I spoke to him in
June of 2013, not long ago, the day the Supreme Court gutted the great
Voting Rights Act of `65.


BOND: This is Justice Roberts` dream. He has been trying to do this since
he was in the Reagan Justice Department as a younger lawyer and has finally
made his dream come true. He`s been able to maneuver the Supreme Court so
they have cut, gutted the Voting Rights Act and just as you said made it
impossible to block attempts to suppress block voting.

This is a good deal for the Republicans. It`s an awful deal for the United


MATTHEWS: I`m joined right now by Dr. Amos Brown, a former -- actually a
board member of the NAACP and a one-time student of Dr. Martin Luther King
at Morehouse College. Julian Bond was in that class with him. Actually,
they were classmates. And Ari Berman is the author of "Give Us the Ballot:
The Modern Struggle for Voting Rights in America."

Gentlemen, we only have a little time, but you first, Dr. Brown.

Tell us about this man`s role in history and how you knew him personally.
Give us the insight on him.

DR. AMOS BROWN, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Well, he was a very gentle,
scholarly, and well-cultured man.

And I am saddened that my very close friend is no longer with us. He was
catapulted into doing great things because of the upbringing that he
received in his father`s home, where he saw and heard that he composed the
Talented Tenth that Du Bois spoken about that was to be a missionary group
to the 90 percent of African-Americans who needed to be enfranchised,
needed to be educated, and given the opportunity to enjoy all of the
amenities of this nation.

MATTHEWS: A natural leader.

Let me go to Ari Berman.

You`re doing great work on this, Ari, more recently talking about him.
Talk about him, his role in terms of gay rights as well. How did he fit
into the contemporary arguments?

RIGHTS IN AMERICA": Well, he was so important in terms of civil rights

He was always for voting rights. He embraced gay rights. And if you look
at Julian Bond at the Voting Rights Act, he was someone who was present at
of the creation of the Voting Rights Act. He was SNCC`s communications
director in Selma, Alabama. He was one of the first black elected
officials after the passage of the VRA in 1965.

And then, 50 years later, he was still engaged in this battle, as you
mentioned, criticizing the Roberts court`s gutting of the Voting Rights
Act, urging the Congress to restore the VRA. And so it was sad that, right
before Julian`s passing, he felt like he was fighting life all over again,
that people like him--

MATTHEWS: Yes, who doesn`t?

BERMAN: -- and John Lewis were engaged with the same battles that they
thought they won 50 years earlier.

MATTHEWS: I know. We keep celebrating what they are already tearing
apart. Anyway, I interviewed him about the Voting Rights Act and voter
suppression efforts like these phony photo I.D. laws across the country.

Here is what Julian Bond had to say, for this is his warning to the
Republican Party. Let`s watch him.


BOND: So, you have to have them ask themselves, do we want to see a
Republican president elected in the next decade or so? Do we want 20 years
from now there to be a Republican president of the United States? If we
do, we have got to change our behavior. We have got to be attractive to
black voters, we have got to be attracted to Hispanic voters. And the way
we are behaving now, we`re not attractive to either one. In fact, we`re
repulsive to both of them.


MATTHEWS: Dr. Brown, younger people than you and I don`t know the fact
that back in 1964 and `65, overwhelmingly, the Republicans in the House and
Senate supported civil rights and voting rights. It was the Dixiecrats who
stood against it. And now the Republican Party has taken on the old role
of Dixiecrat.

BROWN: Well, there had to be someone who would stop our progress that we
fought for so hard.


BROWN: And I must say Julian was not just concerned about civil rights for
black people, but he was concerned about human rights for all people.

He learned that in Dr. King`s class, where Dr. King taught us something
about personalism. That is that all persons are to be respected as having
worth and dignity and that, in this nation, there should be liberty and
justice for all, and all meant all.

MATTHEWS: Back to you, Ari.

Is this fight over voting rights and all this game-playing by these state
assemblies, by the Republicans in the legislatures, one after another,
following the ALEC organization -- they go around finding ways to screw the
black voter. And it`s as simple as that. I`m not saying they do it
because they are black. They do it because they think they are all
Democrats. It`s partisanship. I`m not calling it racism. It`s

Is this going to stop or keep going?

BERMAN: Well, it`s going to keep going in 2016, unfortunately, Chris,
because this is the first presidential election in 50 years without the
full protections of the Voting Rights Act.

And so you are going to see in states like North Carolina, Wisconsin new
voting restrictions are going to be in effect. They are going to be more
difficult to be challenged. And Julian told me that he believed that
voting rights were untouchable. He thought we had moved past this issue,
and he was shocked at how brazen the Republicans had been in recent years
in pursuing these new restrictions, in gutting the Voting Rights Act.

And he`s absolutely right that voter suppression is a short-term strategy.
You can`t ultimately prevent everybody from voting who doesn`t agree with
you. But, unfortunately, that`s the strategy the Republican Party has
chosen and is pursuing for the 2016 election.

MATTHEWS: Well, think of it this way. It`s even worse. States like
Pennsylvania, where I come, where the -- where our ancestors fought the
Civil War and many, many thousands of them died to end this kind of crap,
you have got their current Republicans out there fighting against voting
rights. It`s a shame. It`s worse than a shame.

Thank you, Dr. Amos Brown, for joining us for the memory of Julian Bond, a
great man who just died. And I`m glad we could salute him tonight. And,
Ari Berman, thank you.

BROWN: Thank you very much.


MATTHEWS: Ari`s book is called "Give Us a Ballot."

It`s too bad we can`t do these eulogies and tributes before somebody does
pass away. They would get to hear what they deserve to hear.

Up next, will he or won`t he? Joe Biden mulls a bid for the presidency, as
Democrats are split over whether -- and they`re really split, the
Democrats, which is I think a sophisticated answer. I don`t know what to
tell the guy if he would ever listen to me. I don`t know whether I want
him to run or not. I tell you, I like the guy. Most of us do. We will

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.



A hacking at the IRS first disclosed in May may be far worse than initially
reported. The agency originally saying the data of 114,000 taxpayers was
compromised, but the breach may have exposed the info of more than 330,000

Royal Dutch/Shell has been given final approval to begin drilling for oil
off the coast of Alaska.

And the U.S. is extending condolences to Thailand after an explosion left
12 people dead and 81 others hurt. It`s unclear here if the blast is
related to terrorism -- now back to HARDBALL.


TOM HARKIN (D), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: I have to tell you, I get around a
lot. And people here are not talking about those e-mails.

I don`t get where this is coming from. Hillary is a fighter. Look, I
served with Hillary for several years in the Senate on the same committee.
I saw this fighter.

In terms of Joe Biden, we haven`t we haven`t heard the last of him in terms
of what he can offer to the United States in the future. But what this
calls for right now is Hillary Clinton, it`s time for a woman, past time as
a matter of fact for a woman president. I think the field is out there.
It`s set right now.


MATTHEWS: Wow. Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That`s Iowa`s former senator, Tom Harkin, a very popular guy who stayed out
of a fight eight years ago between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. But
today or this weekend endorsed Hillary Clinton.

Harkin said, the former senator said there is no room for Joe in the field.
It`s set. He said the field is set.

But Biden supporters out there don`t think so and Biden himself was making
calls to friends and allies from his vacation in Kiawah, South Carolina, to
discuss what a presidential campaign would look like should he run.

Well, according to Gallup, Democrats are split over or not he wanted to
run. This is a fascinating number. I think it`s really smart by the
public out there -- 45 percent say he should run, 47 percent said he
shouldn`t. That tells you how finally cut this is.

But the relentless questions about over front runner Hillary Clinton`s
handling of State Department e-mail has provided an opening for somebody
and that means for vice president himself and that wasn`t there a few
months ago.

Time for the roundtable. Howard Fineman, and this is the big stuff for
Howard. I love giving him the big stuff.


MATTHEWS: Global editorial director of "The Huffington Post". We didn`t
do little things for Howard.


MATTHEWS: Global, I mean, read it, buddy.

April Ryan is, of course, White House correspondent who`s available to
opinionate on just about any matter around the world. She`s an American as
a I am, American Urban Radio Networks.

And Adolfo Franco is a Republican strategist.


MATTHEWS: A real -- I love real strategist.

What campaigns have you won?

FRANCO: Well, we had --

MATTHEWS: What campaigns you won as a strategist?

FRANCO: Well, I haven`t won as a strategist.

MATTHEWS: OK, what did you do?

FRANCO: For McCain and Romney.

MATTHEWS: But you strategize?


MATTHEWS: Just to get this right because I always love ways of people are
described, I know what this guy does.

FRANCO: Yes, yes.

MATTHEWS: Name a great strategy overhead.

FRANCO: I think the biggest strategy was try to reach out to the Latino
community in a way we had never done in the McCain campaign.

MATTHEWS: What was that?

FRANCO: We did more press, we have more outreach, we had more surrogates
than we`ve ever had.


FRANCO: Yes, yes.

FINEMAN: You have to say that that was innovative because very little was
being done.


FRANCO: It was.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let`s go.


MATTHEWS: Let`s go. Here is the question: is he moving toward a run or
moving against one right now as we speak?

FINEMAN: As we speak this minute -- as we speak this minute, he`s moving
towards it. Now that doesn`t mean he`s going to do it. But calling around
today, I was surprised at the extent to which there said people right near
him are saying that they`re getting more and more calls.

Now with the indirect effect of the e-mail thing and whatever troubles
Hillary is having, which I agree are not fatal by any means.

MATTHEWS: Is there a bet on the explosion?

FINEMAN: They are sort of loosening some tongues and potential money.

MATTHEWS: April, you`re catching my eye on this.


MATTHEWS: A lot of times, I known over the years, guys who announced in
1964, weird years for anything could happen, men and women ran like in
1980. Sometimes you just want to be on the ballot because anything can
happen. Whoever is on the ballot if Hillary -- if this thing this does
explode, the Trey Gowdy team does kick her out of campaign somehow, you
want to be on the ballot.

RYAN: And this is the time for -- this is the year, non-traditional
presidential campaigning time for anything to happen. For Joe Biden to
come in at this moment if he does after vacationing and making this
decision, he anything can happen.

MATTHEWS: Is it bad for him to sit there and hope something explodes?
Because right now he can`t beat her.

RYAN: Let me say on a couple fronts, if he comes in, there is a windfall
of money. I`m hearing from Draft Joe Biden campaign, that in about four to
six weeks, about $1.5 million to $2 million they will guard in four to six
weeks for money for Joe Biden starting out if he does come in and then also


MATTHEWS: Unlimited money.

RYAN: She`s got unlimited money, but at least starting out.

But then, you also have the negative side. You have the negative side
where, as a White House correspondent, Joe Biden has not made available to
the press. If he does run and talk to the press, Joe Biden is sometimes
the gift that keeps giving. He likes to be very real. Yes, he talks too
much and that`s one of the things the White House tried to work with him on
to help him but the problem is he is so real, he has been able to finesse
things on the Hill.

So, people on the Hill understand him. But when it comes to the public and
the press, that`s going to be a problem for him.

MATTHEWS: If you advised him, would he be judged by past problems with
plagiarism and stuff? Or the fact that people want to give him a break?
Which way is the press going to go?

FRANCO: They are not giving him a break. Really, I don`t think -- with
all due respect seriousness, for a couple of reasons, first of all, she`s a
bad candidate, looking so bad that he started to look good.

The fact of the matter, the reason there isn`t a Biden candidacy, is
because he`s always been a lousy candidate. You`re right, April. No, no,
he`s gaffe-prone --


FRANCO: How many times --

RYAN: His work on Capitol Hill.

FRANCO: Let me finish here a second.

RYAN: Speaks for itself.

FRANCO: How many times have we had a sitting vice president who has not
been seriously considered until he had --

MATTHEWS: Dick Cheney.

FRANCO: Well, I mean, say a vice president of a president who`s been quite
successful. This should have been Barack Obama`s third term. It wasn`t
largely because he`s the wrong messenger. She was the anointed and
everybody knows it. You know it. All the eggs are put in that basket.


MATTHEWS: This is HARDBALL. My ears don`t blanch when you say lousy. You
don`t think he`s a lousy guy, do you?

FRANCO: No, I think he`s a lousy candidate.

MATTHEWS: OK, he`s a good guy, right?

FRANCO: He`s a good guy.


MATTHEWS: Is Hillary Clinton a lousy candidate --

FRANCO: She`s a terrible candidate for different reasons. I think he`s an
undisciplined candidate. I think she`s overly controlled.

MATTHEWS: Well said.

FINEMAN: Yes, she`s overly controlled. Joe is famously under controlled.

FRANCO: Exactly.

FINEMAN: The one amazing thing about him though is he`s a lifetime
politician who at the same time seems to be a real guy and spend a lifetime
in politics and still being regarded --


FINEMAN: That`s a trick of some kind worth something.

MATTHEWS: The image of Joe Biden is Joe Biden.

FINEMAN: I was surprised to learn he thought of himself he might run

MATTHEWS: For president.

FINEMAN: For president.

FRANCO: The year of the outsider --


MATTHEWS: I can`t stop this. This is out of my control.

By the way, he was a senator at the age of 29 when he was elected. I think
he had high hopes. The round table is staying with us.

And coming up, politics comes down to, this is my theory, it`s binary, you
either vote yes, I like the way things are going in my party or in the
country, or no. Let`s take a look at which candidates are no candidates.
We don`t like the way things are going and which candidates are really part
of the status quo.

We`ll be right back and that`s coming up next.


MATTHEWS: When the Iowa state fair this weekend, by the way, Donald Trump
offered his helicopter for rides to children who wanted to go for a ride.
But of all the media trailing the Donald, one young boy might have gotten
the best scoop of all. Let`s listen this.





TRUMP: I am Batman.



MATTHEWS: We`ll be right back because you can`t beat that.



MATTHEWS: We`re back with roundtable.

You know, every four years, the American people face a choice yes or no.
In fact, back in 2007, Barack Obama represented a hard no to the policies
of the Bush administration, none more so than the war in Iraq. Of course,
Hillary Clinton on the other hand represents the Obama legacy right now and
an affirmation of the current president`s policies. In other words, she`s
the candidate of yes much like the President Bush, Bush 41, was in 1988
when the American people said yes to him.

So, what will 2016 become? An election of yes or no.

Howard, in the Republican Party, will the yes faction win or no faction

FINEMAN: No, I think some version of the no faction is going to win.

MATTHEWS: I agree, which is being led by Trump and --

FINEMAN: If you look at the polls, the no candidates are surging. The yes
candidates are falling by the wayside.

MATTHEWS: Bush is down to single digit, the yes candidate. Keep it the
way it is. How do you see the Republicans going? Yes or no?

RYAN: The Republicans are going to have to take a lot of no because with
that yes I think it`s going to be a no.

FRANCO: Absolutely a yes candidate. Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: So you think Bush will win?

FRANCO: I do. This is the silly season and the fun season. I think this
is ephemeral. I think this will pass. I think people are in equivalent --

MATTHEWS: Why is Bush sinking in single digits?

FRANCO: Because part, we talk about Trump all the time. He`s entertaining

MATTHEWS: We`ve known about the Bushes for 40 years.

FRANCO: Once people start making real choices, activists start
participating in primaries and caucuses (INAUDIBLE) time and again --


MATTHEWS: OK, let`s get the Democratic side. The Democratic side, will
Hillary Clinton hold her lead? It`s not much right now.

RYAN: She`s got to get all of this e-mail stuff behind her to be able to
keep that lead and she`s going to have to really start pushing like Bernie
Sanders into the no category so she can become --

MATTHEWS: You mean she`s going to run against the way things are.

RYAN: She`s got to go more left.

MATTHEWS: Is that dangerous, Howard?

FINEMAN: Well, it`s dangerous because the public is not in a happy mood.


FINEMAN: If you ask where the public is, they`re in a no mood.


FRANCO: For the moment. For the moment.

FINEMAN: In the general election, that favors the Republicans if they have
a plausible candidate. I don`t think it`s likely to be George -- I mean,
Jeb Bush.

FRANCO: But there isn`t a plausible no candidate.


FRANCO: There isn`t a plausible no candidate.

MATTHEWS: In 1968, most of us remember, you don`t, April, but `68, it was
the convention in Chicago, it was a lot of anger, we ended up with Nixon,
the ultimate yes candidate. But in a way, he was sort of a challenge to
the system, too. I just don`t see after all this, let`s disagree here --


MATTHEWS: After all this fighting and anger among African-Americans, among
Hispanic, among whites, among everybody young and old, everybody`s bitching
right now and we`re going to end up with Jeb Bush after all that?

FRANCO: But you`ve seen the program. You`ve seen the declarations Trump
made today on immigration. You`ve seen --


FRANCO: There are no plans. Even the plan -- you`re going to deport 12
million people.

MATTHEWS: What`s Bush`s plan?

FRANCO: You`re going to wreak havoc on the economy?

At the end of the day, this is a season of frustration. Voters, as they`ve
done, n the past, will come to their senses.


FINEMAN: Listen, Richard Nixon had the ability to run the "let`s bring us
together --" remember, he road -- ran on the bring us together campaign. I
don`t see --

FRANCO: He was a yes candidate.

FINEMAN: I like Jeb Bush. I don`t see him having the arm strength.

FRANCO: Marco Rubio.


MATTHEWS: April Ryan, what a lively show it`s been on a Monday.

Adolfo Franco, thank you. You want to disagree, but fair enough.

When we return, let me finish with Donald Trump and why his immigration
plan may just resonate with American voters.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with the reason Donald Trump is getting
huge attention with his immigration proposal. It`s because he`s the only
candidate who people at least believe is saying something. Does anyone
trust the other candidates to deal with the challenge of illegal
immigration? Does anyone believe any politician out there right now who is
ready with a plan to end the endless talk about illegal immigration but
also the endless failure to stop it?

Look, if illegal immigration doesn`t bother you, or doesn`t even grab you
as an issue, you might pay attention to those to whom it does bother.
People who care about illegal immigration now have one candidate who`s
speaking out about it and a number of others who are either in the progress
of saying, "me, too" on this, or saying something no one believes or even
remembers the second after they say it. Trump is saying something. Maybe,
just maybe, it will get others to speak out with credible workable fixes to
the problem.

Senator Schumer and Lindsey Graham have both backed the bipartisan Senate
bill which includes enforcement against illegal hiring in this country.
For that, they deserve credit. The late Ted Kennedy was also for that

Either we have a country or we don`t. And that`s what Donald Trump says.
Either we enforce our laws or don`t. We aren`t going to send people out of
the country who have been here for years. Just maybe, just maybe Trump`s
over-the-top idea, though, will get the so-called responsible politicians
to start taking responsibility and end this endless babble about which the
country`s establishment has proven itself pretty much worthless to fix. I
mean it, they don`t do the job. So, he`s talking a plan.

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us tonight.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.


Copyright 2015 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by
United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed,
transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written
permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark,
copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>