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'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Tuesday, August 18th, 2015

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Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL
Date: August 18, 2015
Guest: Jim Gilmore, Clarence Page, David Corn, Sam Stein, Joe Burgo,
Jeffrey Kruger

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC: That does it for us tonight, we`ll see you again
tomorrow, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good
evening Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Good evening Rachel, you know,
you make Army Ranger school sound more difficult than, say, hosting a
primetime cable news show.

MADDOW: I`m just being --

O`DONNELL: It`s really --

MADDOW: I`m just being modest.

O`DONNELL: Yes --

MADDOW: Yes --

(LAUGHTER)

O`DONNELL: You know, my uncle was the commander of the Army Rangers, so
I`ve heard about this stuff before, he would be so proud of this graduating
class.

MADDOW: It is amazing, you know, we don`t know who those two women are
yet. They`re going to basically reveal them to the world on Thursday
before that graduation on Friday.

I think there`s going to be a lot of international interest --

O`DONNELL: How about one of them on your show, one of them on my show?

MADDOW: Deal.

O`DONNELL: OK, thanks Rachel --

MADDOW: Thanks Lawrence.

(LAUGHTER)

O`DONNELL: Right, well, we will be joined tonight by our first Republican
presidential candidate of this season.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Summer of Trump.

(SINGING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am officially running for president of the United
States.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey!

DONALD TRUMP, CHAIRMAN & PRESIDENT, THE TRUMP ORGANIZATIONS & FOUNDER,
TRUMP ENTERTAINMENT RESORTS: The American dream is dead.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s also steering the party into some rough political
waters.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says he`s going to build a wall, he`s going to get
Mexico to pay for it. Is that possible?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Heck yes, it`s possible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trump`s controversial immigration plan also includes
deporting all undocumented immigrants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here is the full text of that paper.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m worried if you`re president, I will get deported.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re not --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Embracing --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Birthright citizenship.

JEB BUSH, FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: I don`t support revoking it.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: But I`m not in favor of repealing it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Marco Rubio in Iowa today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi --

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got (INAUDIBLE) --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scott Walker down nationally and in Iowa.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s in need of a little conservative mojo.

GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R), WISCONSIN: To once and for all repeal Obamacare
entirely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: GOP candidates enjoy bacon-wrapped corn dogs and fried
twinkies at the Iowa State Fair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Note to Republicans, see, this is why America needs
universal healthcare.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: A new "Cnn" national poll of registered Republican voters shows
Donald Trump at the top of the field of 24 percent, it is essentially the
same as the "Fox News" poll released Sunday.

The only differences in these polls are all within the margins of error and
the only significant change in these post-debate polls is that Carly
Fiorina has clearly broken into the top ten in these polls.

Which means that Carly Fiorina seems well on her way to joining the A-team
in the next round of Republican debates.

Carly Fiorina was clearly a winner of the B team debate last time around
and if she is the winner of the next A-team debate, we can expect another
shake up in these polls.

After pushing some of the Republican candidates to the right with his
immigration plan this weekend, Donald Trump seemed to soften his stance on
immigration today.

Tweeting, "when foreigners attend our great colleges and want to stay in
the U.S., they should not be thrown out of the country."

The latest issue Donald Trump has forced Republican candidates to respond
to, is his proposal to end birthright citizenship for all children born in
the United States.

Scott Walker, Lindsey Graham and Rick Santorum and Bobby Jindal immediately
agreed with Trump on the issue of birthright citizenship. Most of the
other Republican candidates disagreed with Trump.

Tonight, Bill O`Reilly challenged Trump on birthright citizenship.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS: The 14th amendment says if you`re born here,
you`re an American and you can`t kick Americans out.

TRUMP: Well, I think you`re wrong about the 14th amendment. And frankly,
the whole thing with anchor babies and the concept of anchor babies, I
don`t think you`re right about that. I think --

(CROSSTALK)

O`REILLY: I can quote, if you want me to quote you the amendment. If you
are born here, you are an American, period.

TRUMP: But there are many lawyers, many lawyers are saying that`s not the
way it is in terms of this. What happens is, they`re in Mexico, they`re
going to have a baby --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: They move over here for a couple of days, they have the baby -- no,
but Bill, they say it`s not going to hold up in court, no, it`s going to
have to be tested.

But they say it`s not going to hold up in court regardless, when people are
illegally in the country they have to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: No Republican candidate has disagreed more forcefully with
Trump on birthright citizenship than the candidate at the bottom of the
Republican polls, former Republican Governor of Virginia Jim Gilmore.

Governor Gilmore said today, "the 14th amendment to the constitution was
written after the civil war to make it very clear that every person born in
this country has a right to citizenship.

It is an important principle that has stood the test of time and an attempt
to repeal it now would set our nation back." Joining us now is former
Virginia Governor Jim Gilmore.

Governor, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

JIM GILMORE, FORMER VIRGINIA GOVERNOR: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: I want to get your reaction to what Donald Trump is saying
tonight. He seems to have a reading of the 14th amendment that I can`t
find anyone else of reasonable mind shares.

JIM GILMORE: No, I think he`s been out in the sun at the Iowa State Fair
too long, Lawrence. There is no lawyer anywhere in America that
misunderstands the 14th amendment.

If you`re born in the United States, you are a natural born citizen.
What`s stunning is that Donald Trump and Governor Walker have agreed that,
that should be changed.

That we should be eliminating birthright citizenship in the United States.
I could not more emphatically disagree with that.

Where it`s very dangerous to begin to tinker with who gets to be a citizen,
who doesn`t get to be a citizen and is a dreadful message to be sent to
young people right now who have citizenship and are going to feel like that
they`re not wanted.

This is wrong, it`s pandering, it`s an awful type of statement and it
should be rejected. So, Maryland, there is no lawyer, any serious lawyer
with a law license that would agree with what Donald Trump has said.

O`DONNELL: Bill O`Reilly tried to instruct Donald Trump that -- to make
this change would require a constitutional amendment. Let`s listen to
that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O`REILLY: There is a way to do it and that is to try to get the
constitution amended. Do you know how to do that?

TRUMP: It`s a long process and I think it would take too long, I`d much
rather find out whether or not anchor babies are actually citizens --

O`REILLY: All right --

TRUMP: Because a lot of people don`t think they --

(CROSSTALK)

O`REILLY: You can test -- why don`t you test it there? Why don`t you have
your guys file --

TRUMP: We`re going to test it --

O`REILLY: Federal suit now? You should do it tomorrow.

TRUMP: We`re going to test it out --

O`REILLY: All right --

TRUMP: That`s going to happen, Bill.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Governor Gilmore, there`s two non-lawyers talking about testing
this out in court. You`re a former prosecutor, former Attorney General,
what hopes do they have?

GILMORE: Former attorney, former prosecutor, former Attorney General,
former Governor of Virginia and that is nonsense. There is absolutely no
legal basis whatsoever to go to any lawyer or any court on this.

The 14th amendment was fast-forward for a very legitimate reason, and it
was to ensure that the states could not deny the rights of citizens after
the civil war, particularly people in the African-American community.

So, the point is that, the right to citizenship in the United States is
very precious. And we`ve seen totalitarian organizations down through the
years that have threatened their citizens with the loss of citizenship.

That`s not the direction that we want to give to the government or the
United States. The 14th amendment there is to protect the rights and
amenities and privileges of the people of the United States and it is wrong
to direct us that way.

Trump is wrong, Governor Walker is wrong.

O`DONNELL: Governor, I want to go on to some of your policies, that your
advancement and your candidacy, let`s -- I want to listen to the way you
summarized your tax plan during the Republican debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GILMORE: We`re going to do a tax cut for all Americans. We`re going to
have a three-bracket tax code, 10, 15 and 25 percent.

We`re going to combine all commercial activity and business into one place,
charging 15 percent and we`re going to eliminate the death tax.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Governor, with those kinds of plans, there`s always that
question of would you raise enough money to be able to do this without
tremendously increasing the deficit?

So would you anticipate massive spending cuts to balance this tax cut?

GILMORE: No, when I put this together, I asked an economist to put
something together that would be revenue neutral and we have done that.

And that would be by way of eliminating a lot of the deductions and the
special credits and special interest type of issues and then put this
together.

But, Lawrence, the main point is that what we`re -- what people don`t
understand is that, this will create a turbo-charged economy. And now all
of a sudden, you`ll have more people working.

You`ll have more people paying taxes, you`ll have young people being able
to move into their own homes and have a chance to start families.

It means the people who have been laid off will have an opportunity to get
better jobs. Part-timers will have an opportunity to get full-time jobs.

And you know, if you`re going to see a growth in the economy, this is going
to raise wages which once again will produce more revenue.

But the main point is that, we start on the basis that this is revenue
neutral. It`s a point that can be put into place without having to do
major spending cuts.

O`DONNELL: And governor, just quickly on this. If CBO ruled that this was
not revenue neutral and you actually needed more revenue or more spending
cuts to make it revenue-neutral, would you then tinker with those tax
brackets and possibly raise the 25 percent bracket or raise the 15?

GILMORE: Sure, we`d do what`s necessary to make the start off with it
being revenue-neutral. But now I`m a former governor, I`ve been used to
dealing with budgets.

I understand how to put together a balanced budget, I know what to do to
make things work. And I believe the candidate is going to come out of one
of the governors or former governors.

The difference, Lawrence, of course, is that I come to it, not only as a
former governor but also a deep foreign policy experience and I think
that`s what makes me a best qualified in this field.

By the way, I`m not the last person now after that last debate, I moved up
ahead of some of the people. So, I`m on the move and I`m really -- I
intend to be the nominee.

O`DONNELL: And governor, on Supreme Court appointments, would you have a
litmus test on abortion for Supreme Court appointments?

GILMORE: No, I wouldn`t do that. But I would have a requirement that I
would satisfy that the judge had a history of actually following the law
instead of trying to make the law.

I`m a University of Virginia trained attorney in constitutional law and I
have a deep respect for the rule of law in this country. It`s what`s
driving a lot of the policies I`ve been proposing as a candidate.

O`DONNELL: And Governor Gilmore, on the Iran deal that the President has
negotiated, assuming that survives congressional challenge and is in place
when the next president takes office, would you invalidate that deal?

GILMORE: I`d do my best to invalidate it, Lawrence, because it`s a
dangerous deal that doesn`t stop the Iranians from expanding their
terrorist activities.

It gives them a lot of money and in the long run, it makes it very likely
they`re going to get a nuclear weapon. So, this is a very problematic
deal.

But I am also a candidate, the only candidate who has said that there`s one
more alternative, and that is, if we`re stuck with it because of this bad
negotiation and the bad national security leadership of this president and
this Secretary of State.

And I propose that there`ll be a new Middle East NATO to provide some
collective security within the Middle East in order to provide some
protection and stability under American leadership.

Now, this president wants to draw us back and back, and that weakness is
now increasing the dangers to the people of the United States from Russia,
from China, from Iran, from the deterioration in the Middle East, from al
Qaeda, from ISIS.

These things are all blossoming up because of the weak and uncertain
foreign policy that this president has been leading us on. And I think
that the Obama-Clinton foreign policy is inherently dangerous.

It`s going to require strong leadership, a rebuilding of our military and a
real sense around the world that we`re going to lead.

O`DONNELL: And Governor Gilmore, just one more quick question on Iran. If
you took office and on your first day in an intelligence briefing you were
told from all the best intelligence sources that, in fact, the Iran deal is
working.

We have no evidence that the Iranians are cheating and the intelligence
community firmly believes they`re actually complying with the Iran deal.

Would you then change your mind and simply enforce, continue to enforce
that Iran deal rather than just rip it up?

GILMORE: Well, as you know, Lawrence, I`m a former army intelligence
agent, United States army veteran. I was stationed in Europe during the
cold war.

And I have a lot of respect for the intelligence community and the people
that bring us information.

If we find out that it`s working, and as a presidential leader, I want to
ask myself what are we trying to achieve here?

And the answer is, to control the expansion of Iran, to make sure that
they`re not fostering terrorism, to make sure they`re not using modern
weapons in order to threaten their neighbors and to do what`s necessary to
make sure there`s stability in the Middle East.

As a president of the United States, I`ll look at all that kind of
information and reach a mature decision, that`s my track record, I believe.

O`DONNELL: Governor Jim Gilmore, thank you very much for joining us
tonight.

GILMORE: Great, thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, new -- the new CNN poll has some fascinating results
about who the Republican voters believe will handle the various issues in
the best way.

There is some remarkable outcomes in that poll on that. And later, the
Democratic campaign for the presidential nomination, Hillary Clinton`s e-
mails seem to becoming a new factor in that campaign.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: On Jimmy Kimmel`s show, Josh Groban put Donald Trump`s tweets,
word-for-word to music.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH GROBAN, SINGER-SONGWRITER: Donald Trump`s tweets will make you laugh,
will make you cry, but mostly they`ll make you cry.

(SINGING)

Sorry losers and haters but my IQ is one of the highest --

(LAUGHTER)

And you all know it, so please, don`t feel so stupid or insecure, it`s not
your fault, not your fault. Amazing how all the haters and losers keep
tweeting the name -- won`t stick --

(LAUGHTER)

But they are so originals and like no one else`s doing it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Coming up, why some people are now turning to psychiatry for
the answer to the question -- what`s wrong with Donald Trump?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: That new "Cnn" poll shows how Republican voters think each
candidate would handle specific issues.

When asked, regardless of who you are voting for, which Republican
candidate do you think can best handle the economy?

Forty five percent of respondents choose Donald Trump, Jeb Bush is second
with 9 percent, Carly Fiorina and Scott Walker each have 6 percent.

On the issue of illegal immigration, Donald Trump leads with 44 percent,
Jeb Bush has 13 percent and Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, each have 7 percent.

On handling the Islamic State, Donald Trump leads again with 32 percent,
Jeb Bush is second with 16 percent, Ted Cruz has 7 percent, Ben Carson and
Marco Rubio, each have 5 percent.

On social issues, Donald Trump has a slim lead with 19 percent, Jeb Bush
has 15, Ben Carson, 12, Mike Huckabee, Marco Rubio each have 7 percent.

The "Cnn" poll also asked respondents if they think Republicans have a
better chance of winning the presidency with Donald Trump or with someone
else as the party`s nominee and 58 percent say Republicans would have a
better chance with someone else.

Just 38 percent say Donald Trump gives Republicans the best chance.
Joining us now, Sam Stein, senior politics editor and White House
correspondent for "The Huffington Post".

David Corn, Washington Bureau Chief for "Mother Jones" and Clarence Page,
columnist for the "Chicago Tribune".

Clarence, it`s fascinating to see that 20 percent more believe that Donald
Trump would be best at handling the economy.

That`s 20 percent more that are actually supporting him. So, it seems he
may very well -- this maybe evidence that he`s hit his limit that no matter
how much people might agree with some things he says they dislike him
enough that they won`t vote for him, even if they agree with him on the
economy.

CLARENCE PAGE, COLUMNIST, CHICAGO TRIBUNE: That could be. I mean we`ve
been looking for a Donald Trump ceiling and this may be our first real sign
of it.

Certainly he is -- I`m still trying to figure out what to make of how
impressed people are. I guess they`re impressed with his bankruptcies and
the --

DAVID CORN, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, MOTHER JONES: Yes --

PAGE: Way he boasts about using laws to his benefit regardless of how many
people got laid off from the companies that were involved there.

But he is a salesman and so, it`s appropriate that he would do well in that
category.

O`DONNELL: And David Corn, we`re starting to get a pretty consistent
number on Trump from poll to poll. It`s the 24, 25 percent zone --

CORN: Yes --

O`DONNELL: Right in there. We -- I`m constantly doing this reminder, we
had candidates like Rick Perry at 38 percent last time around.

We had candidates who ended up flaming out completely who polled higher at
this point than Trump is polling now.

CORN: Well, the thing is a lot of those previous candidates, they came in
and people didn`t know that much about them. Rick Perry looked good until
he opened his mouth and said anything.

You know, there is a lot of information out there --

O`DONNELL: Unlike Donald Trump, David, because when he opens his mouth and
says --

CORN: Yes --

O`DONNELL: Something --

CORN: That`s my point.

(LAUGHTER)

Well, my point though is, if people know what they need to know about
Donald Trump and still a quarter of Republicans are for him and 40 --
almost 40 percent think that the party can win with him at the helm.

So, that`s why I think he has a lot of staying power, that these other sort
of candidates -- he`s no Herman Cain, he`s no Michele Bachmann.

And if you look at those polls that you just showed, one of the interesting
trends is that in most of those categories at all, Jeb Bush has lost ground
as Donald Trump has gained ground on all those issues -- by issues.

So I think Trump is here for the get-go.

O`DONNELL: Well, Sam Stein, so far --

SAM STEIN, SENIOR POLITICS EDITOR & WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE
HUFFINGTON POST: Yes --

O`DONNELL: He`s no Herman Cain because Herman Cain was at 30 percent at
this point four years ago. He was at a higher number than Donald Trump --

STEIN: Yes --

O`DONNELL: Has ever reached.

STEIN: Well, yes, that`s true but it was for a smaller period of time, of
course. I think what David is getting at is that, in 2012, there was
essentially a two-tiered primary system, in which it was Mitt Romney and
then Mitt Romney`s challenger du jour.

And it was Herman Cain for a while, it was Newt Gingrich for a while, Rick
Santorum ultimately at the end, and so on and so forth. It`s a lot
different than this time around.

We have 16 candidates, about ten of them are very serious people that at
one point or another were considered possible leading presidential
contenders.

And so what you`ve created is a system in which everyone is sort of waiting
to see the field winnow out a little bit, to you know, narrow down to ten a
bit.

And then when we get to that point in time, I do believe that that`s when
you`ll see Trump`s favorabilities, Trump`s poll numbers actually decline a
little bit.

Because people are going to start to make choices, I think the last -- the
last poll number you read was the most important. If people don`t think
you`re electable, if people don`t think you can win in a general election.

That seems to -- that can be a determinative factor going into a primary
vote.

O`DONNELL: Yes, and Clarence, that`s what we`ve always seen, even with
these flirtations with Herman Cains and characters like that.

Is that the Republican electorate for the primary process always ends up
surrounding what seems to be by all polling information the most electable
candidate.

And yes, you know, John McCain and Mitt Romney lost the general election
but that doesn`t mean there was a stronger candidate in the field that they
--

PAGE: Exactly right --

O`DONNELL: Were in to go against the Democratic nominee.

PAGE: That`s right, and one thing we haven`t mentioned is the difference
between small state and large state turnouts.

We saw with Romney and with John McCain that they really broke through
after Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina.

When they got to Florida and then -- but New York, California, Illinois,
you name it, Pennsylvania, Michigan, the big states.

That was where we saw the establishment Republicans step forth and the
pragmatic Republicans who said which one of these folks has a good chance
of winning.

And I think that`s going to be the best shot for Jeb Bush, who I still --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes --

PAGE: Think, Lawrence, is going to be the one who`s going to get the
nomination in the end. I`m hanging in there with 6 percent Jeb right now.

O`DONNELL: Well, if I -- yes --

CORN: But then, you know, but Lawrence --

O`DONNELL: Go ahead, David --

CORN: I do think, you know, that makes sense from a political science
point of view.

At the same time, it`s not beyond imagination that, you know, anywhere
between 15 and 25 percent of the Republican primary base doesn`t care as
much about electability as they deal about venting their anger, fears and
frustration.

And that`s --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure --

CORN: All kind of flowing to Donald Trump now. I think Ben Carson is
getting some of that vote as well and a few other candidates, they --

PAGE: That`s right --

CORN: They dropped out, Trump might be the benefit of that.

STEIN: But David --

CORN: So, there`s a --

STEIN: But David, that matters only -- that matters right now when there
is such a crowded field, but when it gets down to three or four candidates
that 15 percent becomes a lot less valuable.

CORN: Well, 20 --

STEIN: I will say this, the difference --

CORN: Twenty percent --

STEIN: Between Trump --

CORN: Now, hold on --

(CROSSTALK)

STEIN: McCain though, David, difference between Trump and McCain though is
that Trump has seemingly billions, according to him, to spend on this
endeavor.

CORN: Yes!

STEIN: And so, if he can -- he can actually stay in, pay the money --

PAGE: That`s right --

STEIN: Run the ads, buy the salaries of people to work for him, so he does
have staying power in that sense. But I just think once it gets to a
smaller field, you know, the cap on his support will be a lot more evident.

CORN: Well, we`re not arguing that he is going to be the nominee --

O`DONNELL: Yes --

CORN: But I think he`s not going to fade --

STEIN: One can --

CORN: Or go away too easily.

O`DONNELL: All right --

CORN: Yes --

O`DONNELL: I just want to -- before you leave the segment, Clarence, I
just want to encourage you in your -- in your clinging support to Jeb Bush.
He`s --

(LAUGHTER)

He`s actually at 9 percent in both of these polls, not 6 percent. So, it`s
a --

PAGE: Oh --

O`DONNELL: Safer --

(CROSSTALK)

PAGE: That`s what I thought -- yes --

(CROSSTALK)

O`DONNELL: They are stronger than you thought since --

PAGE: I was on my head at the moment --

O`DONNELL: Right --

PAGE: I guess --

STEIN: He read it upside down.

O`DONNELL: We`re going to leave it, we`re going to take a quick break
here, Sam Stein, thank you very much for joining us for that segment.

Coming up next, what the shrinks are thinking when they watch Donald Trump.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: Not all of Chuck Todd`s interview with Donald Trump was able to
fit into the confines of "Meet the Press", we have more tonight, that best
interview yet of candidate Trump.

It actually turned down-right psychiatric at one point with Dr. Todd trying
to get the evasive patient to look inward.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Hey, I went to the Wharton School of Finance, I was a really good
student, it`s probably the hardest school of the race to get in --

TODD: I`ve never heard you say anything about Wharton before -- I`ve never
heard you say that about Wharton --

TRUMP: Well, I`m proud of the school --

TODD: I`m kidding --

TRUMP: You know why it`s a great school? --

TODD: Let me ask you --

TRUMP: Some of the -- some of the greatest business minds in the world
came out --

TODD: I understand --

TRUMP: Of Wharton --

TODD: So, why do you feel it`s important to tell us that all the time?

TRUMP: I will tell you why, because everybody knows what a great school it
is. Everybody knows that to get in to Wharton is probably the hardest
school to get in to it. You know, it is right there, within a couple Ivy
League.

TODD: Sure, Ivy League, no question.

TRUMP: You have to be very smart. If you are a conservative republican,
you go in -- look, if I were a liberal democrat, people would say I am the
super genius of all time. The super genius of all time. If you are a
conservative republican you got to fight for your life. It is really an
amazing thing. And, let me tell you, they are plenty smart and they are
really smart.

TODD: But, I guess I go back to, "Why do you have to tell us all the time
that you went to Wharton?" People know you are successful. They see you
are successful. They assume you are smart.

TRUMP: They know it is a great business school.

TODD: Why do you have to say it?

TRUMP: We need business genius in this country. We need it. We cannot
have continuously bad trade deals with China, with Japan, with Mexico. I
mean Mexico is killing us. Mexico is killing us in trade. Killing --

TODD: All right. How are they killing us? The peso is worth less today
than it was five years ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST OF "LAST WORD" PROGRAM: And, so, they went
on about the peso. On Sunday, when most of that interview aired on "Meet
The Press," two Op-Ed pieces in the "New York Times" made psychiatric
references to Donald Trump.

Timothy Egan`s column entitled, "The Junk Politics of 2015" said, "Normal
politics cannot explain Trump for that you need Freud. Trump fits the
classic definition of narcissistic personality disorder." And, in her
column, Maureen Dowd included this account of her interview with Donald
Trump.

Quote, "I tell Trump he has transcended the level of narcissism common in a
profession full of narcissist. I asked if he was always like this posting
that he had the best baby food and the best highchair.

`Honestly, I do not think that people change that much,` Trump said. `I am
a solid, table person.` Knocking on the wooden restaurant wall with, he
added, `I am a man of great achievement. I win, Maureen. I always win.
Knock on wood, I win. It is what I do. I beat people. I win.` No
insecurities? `I do not know how you would define insecurity as it
pertains to me,` he replies."

Joining us now two people, who can define insecurity as it pertains to
Donald Trump, Clinical Psychologist, Joe Burgo joins us from Denver,
Colorado. He is the author of the upcoming book, "The Narcissist You
Know." And Jeffrey Kluger, Edito-At-Large for "Time" magazine and the
author of "The Narcissist Next Door."

Joe Burgo, let us begin with Chuck Todd`s question. Why does he have to
keep telling us he went to the Wharton School and that he is very smart?

JOE BURGO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, extreme narcissists like Donald Trump view
the world exclusively in terms of winners and losers. And, they feel
constantly compelled to demonstrate their winner status.

And, at the same time to triumph over those losers that they despise. So,
it is a way of escaping and disproving a sense of inferiority or defect
that lies below the surface.

O`DONNELL: Jeffrey Kluger, it is as if we have x-rays of the Trump case
here. There is this tweet that Josh Groban put to music where he says,
"Sorry losers and haters, but my I.Q. is one of the highest and you all
know it. Please do not feel so stupid or insecure. It is not your fault."

JEFFREY KLUGER, EDITOR-AT-LARGE FOR "TIME MAGAZINE" AND AUTHOR OF "THE
NARCISSIST NEXT DOOR": Well, and this is what I have said about Trump.
For all narcissists, there is a certain grandiosity. There is a certain
entitlement. There is a sense of a lack of empathy. But with Trump, as in
all things with Trump, it is a question of scale.

There is the largeness of Trump, the loudness of Trump, the great brain
Trumpness of Trump. But there is a smallness, too, a pettiness, a
petulance, a sort of certain bizarre to school boy taunts. The very fact
that he calls his opponents stupid, that he uses terms like, "Total loser."
These are very juvenile terms.

O`DONNELL: And, this is all symptomatic of narcissism.

KLUGER: It is symptomatic of the brittleness of narcissism, because one
thing to keep in mind about narcissism is that it is often what
psychologists called the mask model of narcissism.

It is a sense of profound grandiosity that is designed to cover up its
exact opposite. A profound insecurity, even a self loathing in some
people. So, anything that fractures that mask leaves the narcissist very
vulnerable. And, I think we are seeing this in Trump`s case.

O`DONNELL: Joe Burgo, you have drawn the connection between narcissism in
our politics now. You wrote Trump`s narcissism actually constitutes a
large part of his appeal to certain voters. Could you explain that?

BURGO: Sure. Well, if you are the sort of voter whose anxious about his
economic future, worried about his social status in a world that is
constantly changing, that is if you are afraid of being a loser in this
highly competitive world we live in, Trump models a kind of way out.

You can become indignant and you can vent it in the Twitter sphere. You
can blame those stupid politicians for what is wrong with our world. And,
you can treat anybody who challenges your self esteem with mockery and
contempt. So, he kind of -- you know, he offers a model for how you can
escape from your insecurities.

O`DONNELL: Jeffrey, you wrote in your piece that his feuds with Rosie
O`Donnell, with Robert De Niro the insulting -- he has not limited his
insults to Rosie O`Donnell to Megyn Kelly. That is all an example of his
insecurity based on this narcissism?

KLUGER: Well, that is exactly right. And, Megyn Kelly is a very good
example. Because a person who is comfortable in his or her own skin would
have been able to say, "Look, I honestly was not referring to hormones when
I talked to Megyn Kelly, but I can understand why people thought that.
And, I wish I had chosen a better word, but I truly did not mean it."

But for Trump even to concede the few inches of ground that would have
suggested that he phrased his sentence improperly or ineffectively was too
much because you must stand constant guard over your ego, over your self
esteem. You can afford to give no quarter.

O`DONNELL: And, Joe Burgo, what then do you expect of this candidacy if it
has a kind of psychological direct connection to populism? Where do you
expect it to go from here?

BURGO: Well, it is hard to imagine the leader of the western world being
someone who cannot tolerate criticism, who becomes indignant and blaming
and contemptuous when his views are challenged, who cannot compromise, who
always has to have his way.

You know, your earlier guests were talking about Trump reaching his levels
of popularity. And, I think that for thinking people, they are going to
see that this is not a man, who you can really trust to lead our country.

O`DONNELL: And, Jeffrey, there is this great passage you have in here
about the Trump name and how it is everywhere on his buildings. You say
the Trump name is everywhere in the Trump world and there is a reason for
that. You can look at something you have built with quiet pride and know
it is yours, or you can look at it worriedly, insecurely fretting that
someone, somewhere may not know that you created it.

KLUGER: Well, that is right. It reminds me of a great line from "Death of
a Salesman," when Willy Loman`s neighbor is going to argue before the
Supreme Court. And, Willy says, "Why have not you told me about that?"
And, his answer is, "I am going to do it. I do not have to talk about it."
That is a secure person.

(LAUGHING)

O`DONNELL: Jeffrey Kluger and Joe Burgo, thank you very much for joining
me tonight. You know, I have friends, who work in this field who have been
saying for weeks now, they are watching this classic case on T.V. And, I
have to say they are kind of enjoying it since they do not have to treat
this patient again. Jeffrey Kluger and Joe Burgo, thank you very much for
joining us.

Coming up, Nate Silver predicts, which candidate has an 85 percent chance
of winning a presidential nomination.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: Donald Trump who says he does not need anyone else`s money to
run for president. He has been soliciting money for weeks on his website
for campaign contributions and is now selling Trump hats to raise money for
his campaign on his website.

Trump tweeted today, "Our online campaign store is open. Visit
Donaldjtrump.com for make America great again merchandise including my
signature hat." That tweet arrived too late to make it on to the list of
tweets that Josh Groban set to music on Jimmy Kimmel`s show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH GROBAN, ARTIST: I am Josh Groban and I have the voice of an Angel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER: The best tweets of Donald Trump.

GROBAN (singing): I never seen a thin person drinking diet Coke.
@BarackObama`s birth certificate is a fraud. A fraud. Robert Pattenson
should not take back Kristen Stewart. She cheated on him like a dog and
would do it again just watch.

(LAUGHING)

O`DONNELL: Ah just keep that rolling. Up next, Hillary Clinton had a town
hall meeting in Las Vegas today with 300 people and got not one question
from them about her e-mails.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Donald Trump, the presidential candidate who made the inane
statement to Chuck Todd that it does not matter whether Ukraine is a member
of Nato. Posted this video today about Hillary Clinton.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It does not matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: It does not matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: It does not matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: What difference at this point does it make?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: This afternoon, Secretary Clinton took more questions about her
e-mail system from reporters about when she was Secretary of State.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: Whether it was a personal account or a government account, I did
not send classified material and I did not receive any material that was
marked or designated classified.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: The Clinton campaign has a new message for supporters today.
No bed wetting. That line was borrowed from President Obama`s 2008
campaign. It is meant to calm down supporters worried about the e-mail
controversies.

It comes one day after the intelligence community flagged 305 e-mails for
further review. The state department says they have seen no indication of
negligence or wrongdoing at this point. Meanwhile, the examination of
Hillary Clinton`s private server could reveal more than just e-mails. It
could show who had access to the server, and if anyone tried to break in to
it.

The FBI also might be able to recover deleted data from the server. Two
sources with knowledge of the analysis have told NBC News that FBI agents
are optimistic that they will be able to recover at least some of that
deleted data.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ED HENRY, FOX NEWS CHANNEL SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Did you wipe
the server?

CLINTON: Well, like with cloth or something.

HENRY: I do not know. How it works digitally. Did you try to wipe the
server?

CLINTON: I do not know how it works digitally at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Back with us David Corn and Clarence Page. Clarence Page, you
have watched the Clintons whether every controversial storm they have gone
through. How is Hillary Clinton handling this one?

CLARENCE PAGE, COLUMNIST AT "CHICAGO TRIBUNE": I think she could be doing
better frankly. She has been acting -- really servicing that Clinton
stereotype of having built a fortress around herself, being isolated, not
giving enough answers instead of being really candid.

The amount of times she does spin facing the press has been pretty meager.
I think for her sake, I fear she maybe the victim of overconfidence like
what happened eight years ago when she did not see Barack Obama coming, but
it is still August. So, I do not want to stick my neck out too much.

O`DONNELL: Yes. And, you got enough at risk with that 9 percent. The
betting on 9 percent for Bush.

(LAUGHING)

PAGE: Bush versus Clinton. That is what you are going to see. I am still
hanging in there.

O`DONNELL: Fox News, Ed Henry asked Hillary Clinton about the e-mails
leaping off of Eugene Robinson`s column in the "Washington Post" today.
Let us listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: Eugene Robinson, who is not a conservative, a liberal columnist for
"The Washington Post" today said that, "At the very least, you have
stonewalled, and he said you should tell the American people, `I am sorry.
I was wrong.` But instead, in recent days, you have been talking about
SnapChat. You have been blaming republican attacks." Is not leadership
about taking responsibility?

CLINTON: Well , I do take -- look, I take responsibility. Look, I just
told Jeff in retrospect, this did not turn out to be convenient at all.
And, I regret that this has become such a cause c‚lŠbre. But, that does
not change the facts. And, no matter what anybody tries to say, the facts
are stubborn, what I did was legally permitted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: And, David Corn, at this town hall, she did in Las Vegas today
300 people, not one question about the e-mails. The difference between
people showing up at her appearances and reporters showing up at her
appearances and what is on their mind it is like night and day.

DAVID CORN,POLITICAL JOURNALIST: Well, this happens all the time. You
know, people did not ask George H.W. Bush about Iran contra when he went on
the campaign trail. I do not think that really is a measure of what the
impact controversy might have on a candidate.

I mean one problem we have in our media culture these days, 24/7,
nanosecond by nanosecond is that there is really no modulation. Every
crisis becomes the biggest crisis. You know, every controversy becomes the
major controversy. We do not have sort of moderate controversies.

The e-mail problem was a problem, is a problem. It violated national
archive guidelines, and regulations, but it was permitted as Hillary
Clinton said. And, I think the real problem she faces here with this is
that it is not going to go away anytime soon.

The FBI has its hands on the server. They may be able to pull up 60,000 of
the e-mails that were deleted. 30,000 personal, 30,000 were told were
handed over to the state department. They are going to spend a lot of time
reviewing those. It will take a lot of time to go through those one by
one.

And, it will not take much for somebody to say, "Oh, they made a mistake.
There is classified information or there is not." Or "Here is something
she should have handed over, but she did not hand it over.

If you are dealing with 120,000 e-mails what are the odds -- I am granting
good faith here, that they were all were handled at 100 percent level.
There are to going to be some mistakes that have found. And, that will
just keep this, you know, moderate crisis, controversy going on for months
to come.

O`DONNELL: All right, a quick break here. When we come back, Nate
Silver`s precise statistical likelihood of Hillary Clinton being the
democratic nominee for president.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I am the one person that is going to beat her. Now, I think she
may not be able to run to be honest, because this whole e-mail thing is a
horrible thing. General Petraeus, his life has been destroyed, and he did
5 percent of what he did. So, assuming she is able to run which would be a
miracle at the this point, I will beat her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: In Sunday`s Fox News poll, Hillary Clinton matched against
Donald Trump got 47 percent of the vote. Donald Trump got 42 percent of
the vote. Up next, Nate Silver on Hillary Clinton winning the nomination.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: Today, in Las Vegas, Hillary Clinton answered questions in a
town hall of more than 300 people spoke to press and media availability and
toured the Carpenters union training center. Her audience of 300 did not
ask any single question about her e-mail as Secretary of State.

Hillary Clinton`s strongest opponent for the democratic nomination, Bernie
Sanders, is also in Nevada today, where he said this about his chances
against a republican in the general election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERNIE SANDERS, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The democrats got
killed in the November election because voter turnout was abysmally low,
abysmally low. Democrats whether running for president, running for the
senate, Running for the house, will not do well unless there is excitement.

Unless there is grassroots movement, where people are coming out and voting
in large numbers. With voter registration numbers, go way up. I think it
is fair to say -- and I do not mean to be self serving here, but I think it
is fair to say there is a lot of excitement in the Bernie Sanders campaign
right now.


So, if we want to get young people involved, if we want to get working
people involved. If we want large voter turnouts to defeat republicans, I
would say that Bernie Sanders is the candidate who can defeat republicans
in that regard.

O`DONNELL: Yesterday, 5:38 Nate Silver said that polling data indicates
that Hillary Clinton still has an 85 percent chance of winning the
democratic nomination. Clarence page, there is some really striking
polling similarities at this stage between where Hillary Clinton was eight
years ago. She was at 41 percent against Barack Obama`s 27 percent.

She is now at 49 percent against Bernie Sanders` 30 percent. One of the
points that Nate Silver makes is that Bernie Sanders is not -- simply not
as good of a candidate as Barack Obama was. And, he does not expect Bernie
Sanders to perform at the level Barack Obama did in closing that gap.

PAGE: I think that is wise. And, also I think there is a lot of residual
enthusiasm for Hillary Clinton leftover from eight years ago when many
democrats had that terrible decision to make. Should I go with Hillary
Clinton, the first woman or go with Barack Obama, the first African-
American?

And, a lot of people have just been chomping at the bit -- in the
intervening years waiting to vote for Hillary Clinton. And, she does not
have that strong competition right now. And, I think also, you know,
Bernie Sanders talking about injecting excitement into this race.

He sounds almost exactly like Ralph Nader did during a 2000 race, which was
also not a bad point. The big question now is who generates more
excitements among democrats, Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump. Trump is
doing a good job of it right now.

O`DONNELL: Well, David, the interesting situation here for Bernie Sanders
is when you start analyzing how much enthusiasm are you going to have in
the general election, it is not easy to tell that at this stage of a
primary.

And, if you would isolate Hillary Clinton as the presidential nominee and
then the first woman president is simply one election day away. It seems
to me that there would be an unknown, unprecedented level of excitement and
anticipation about that possible historic breakthrough.

CORN: Well, I just made a bet today with Michael Steel, our colleague, the
former GOP chairman that if it comes down to this. I am not saying it is,
I am not discounting Bernie here. But, if it comes down to the first woman
versus the third Bush, I know which way I think I am going to bet on that.

But, I do think -- the interesting thing about Bernie. Bernie is really
all about the issues. We call him Bernie because we have known him many
years. I do not want to be disrespectful here. But, he is all about the
issues. He represents some progressive, you know, feeling and sentiment
that is not going away. And, Hillary Clinton is going to have to find a
way to tap in to that.

O`DONNELL: And, let us remember if Hillary Clinton is the nominee, unlike
the Ralph Nader model, Bernie Sanders would be on the stage with her
cheering her on, introducing her, campaigning for her and bringing whatever
excitement could bring to that.

CORN: Presumably.

(LAUGHING)

O`DONNELL: Well, he said he is on board with the nominee, no matter what.
There is no question about it. All right. We got to end it there for
tonight. David Corn, Clarence Page, thank you very much for joining us.
Chris Hayes is up next.

END

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