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All In With Chris Hayes, Wednesday, August 26th, 2015

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Date: August 26, 2015
Guest: Mike Mather, Valerie Jarrett, Charlie Pierce, Michael Waldman,
Colin Goddard, Melissa Jeltsen, Josh Barro, Maria Hinojosa, Orville Schell>


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re going to be so miss asked not easily

HAYES: Two journalists murdered on live television by an ex-employee
of the station.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He quickly became -- gathered a reputation as
someone who was difficult to work with.

HAYES: Tonight, condemnation for the atrocity and calls to action.

something about gun violence in America.

HAYES: Then, here`s Scott Walker on China now.

them to the woodshed.

HAYES: And here`s Scott Walker on Chinese state TV in 2012.

WALKER: Almost $1.4 billion of exports from Wisconsin to China.
That`s a win/win.

HAYES: Plus, the latest on Donald Trump versus Jorge Ramos.

emotional person.

HAYES: And the latest on a Trump fan versus Jorge Ramos.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of my country.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

A truly horrifying scene in Franklin County, Virginia, today, where a
former employee of a local TV station WDBJ 7 murdered two of his former
colleagues live on television at 6:45 a.m. The gunman later took his own

The victims were reporter Alison Parker, 24 years old, and cameraman
Adam Ward, 27 years old. They were shot and killed during a live broadcast
as Alison Parker was interviewing Vicki Gardner, an executive director of
the Smith Mountain Lake regional Chamber of Commerce.

Ms. Gardner was also shot. She is now undergoing surgery and is
listed in the stable condition.

Both victims, the reporter and cameraman were in relationships with
other members of the station`s staff. Alison Parker was dating an anchor
at WDBJ, Chris Hurst, who tweeted in the wake of her murder, they were in
love and that he was numb. Adam Ward`s fiancee, Melissa Ott, a producer
for the station`s morning program, was in the station`s control room when
the shooting occurred live on that station`s air.

Colleagues of the victims still broadcasting after the incident were
joined by the station`s general manager to report the shooting and
memorialize their friends.


WDBJ 7 ANCHOR: We are following breaking news this morning out of
Franklin County, news that has affected our WDBJ 7 family very deeply. Our
WDBJ 7 morning crew was live this morning at Smith Mountain Lake when shots
were fired around 6:45.

And our general manager and WDBJ 7 vice president Jeff Marks is here
to tell us more about what happened.

JEFF MARKS, WDBJ 7 VICE PRESIDENT: Kim, it is my very, very sad duty
to report that we have determined, through the help of the police and our
employees, that Alison and Adam died this morning shortly after 6:45 when
the shots rang out. I cannot tell you how much they were loved, Alison and
Adam, by the WDBJ 7 team.


HAYES: The killer has been identified as a former reporter of the
WDBJ, Vester Lee Flanagan, who`s on air name was Bryce Williams. He had
been dismissed two years prior. Soon after this morning`s shootings,
Flanagan started tweeting about his act, uploading his own video of the

Flanagan was tracked down in part through the police`s use of a
license plate reader and Virginia state police attempted to pull him over
on Interstate 66 in northern Virginia. The police closing in, Flanagan
later crashed. Officials indicating he may have shot himself in the head
while driving and later died.

Prior to that, approximately two hours after the shooting, ABC News
received a 23-page fax from a man claiming to be Flanagan, detailing his
grievances, praising other mass shootings, such as Columbine, Virginia
Tech. Also claiming the Charleston, South Carolina, church shooting was a
tipping point motivating his actions today.

In that 23-page document which ABC News describes as a suicide note,
Flanagan also claims he made a deposit of the gun two days after the
Charleston church shooting.

Joining me now, investigative reporter for WTKR in Norfolk, Virginia,
Mike Mather, who is in Linden, Virginia, tonight.

Mike, I`ve got to imagine this is just absolutely devastating. For
everyone in that community, reporters particularly, journalists, how are
people processing this this evening?

right. It is absolutely a shock to anybody who does this job. In the
Roanoke Valley area, WDBJ is a very solid station there. In fact, the
sheriff himself said he was watching the morning newscast, knew the
reporter from the previous interview and saw the shooting as so many did.

There are prayer vigils tonight in the Smith Mountain Lake where the
shooting happened. And all day long, at the WDBJ studios, people have been
bringing flowers, they`ve been holding prayer circles themselves. Area
businesses were bringing in food for the employees there. And the
employees were struggling through their day after losing these two
colleagues. So, it is up and down this area of Virginia, a very difficult

Not only in the profession but all the people who watch television and
get to know these reporters.

HAYES: Yes, my sense is that there were thousands of people in that
area who saw this happen live on their TV sets. It must have been
massively traumatic for everyone watching -- obviously, not as traumatic
for the families and loved ones of those victims. But I can`t imagine
trying to watch that real-time as you were watching this happened.

MATHER: Yes. And it was something so innocuous. It was the bread
and butter of a morning news show.

HAYES: Right.

MATHER: A reporter with a lot of energy and her photographer doing a
story with a Chamber of Commerce executive director about tourism, about a
good story in their area. Certainly, you would never expect this on any
story. But something like that, Smith Mountain Lake live on television for
a 24-year-old reporter, and a 27-year-old photographer, just getting their
lives and their careers started, to have this happen live was absolutely

And, of course, the station right away was struggling to find out what
happened themselves and it was just only afterwards the general manager, as
you just heard, had to come on to the station and deliver the awful news.

HAYES: Mike Mather, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

Let me say one thing -- I`m a reporter, obviously. I`ve been a
reporter my entire adult life, so this hits close to home. But I`ve --
through this work I have gotten to work with a lot of camera people and
crews, and it`s just important to recognize, I think today in this moment,
that they are journalists as much as any of us are. They do incredible
work. They take incredible risks in incredibly dangerous situations all
the time.

This wasn`t supposed to be a dangerous situation. But keep in mind,
every time you see an image on a television screen from a dangerous place,
there is a person holding that camera who is risking their life without the
fame and glory that attached to those people in front of the camera.

Soon after today`s shooting, Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe said in
a radio interview there is too gun violence in America.

Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton campaigning today in Iowa,
expressed her condolences to the victims and their families and spoken
strong terms about the apparent epidemic of gun violence in this country.


CLINTON: Intentional, unintentional, murder, suicide, it happens
every day. And there is so much evidence that if guns were not so readily
available, if we had universal background checks, if we could just put some
time out between the person who is upset because he got fired or the
domestic abuse or whatever other motivation may be working on someone who
does this, that maybe we could prevent this kind of carnage.


HAYES: Earlier today, I spoke with President Obama senior adviser
Valerie Jarrett and asked her what it was like in the White House on a day
like today.


heartbreaking, Chris. Of course, our hearts go out to the family and
friends of the anchor, the cameraman, and we`re just faced with another
tragedy. And we are once again asking ourselves, what more can we do?

We know that the president took 23 different executive actions to try
to make it safer for Americans. We know from our effort after Sandy Hook,
that 90 percent of the Americans believe we need sensible gun legislation
and we are continuing to call on Congress to act.

And as the president said earlier, we really need a grassroots effort
around our country that says, look, we may not able to save every life.
But if we save just one life, isn`t it worth it? And that we can both
respect the Second Amendment at the same time we can make sure the guns
don`t get into the wrong hands.

HAYES: There`s two separate interviews in which I`ve heard the
president interviewed in which he has said that his chief time in his time
in office has been the inability to pass any kind of gun legislation, to
have any kind of policy response to the kind of mass shootings we`ve seen.
I should be clear, today does not technically count as a mass shooting in
terms of FBI statistics.

How present is that frustration in the president in that White House?

JARRETT: It`s ever present. He mentions with great frequency that
his worst day in office was the day that Sandy Hook happened. And going up
there just a couple of days later and meeting with the families of the
victims and looking at the photographs of those young children, it is just
gut wrenching.

And so, yes, it`s something that weighs on him heavily. He shares it
very openly when his staff and he`s obviously talked about it quite
publicly. And he`s convinced that when you have 90 percent of the American
people who want to do something, there is really no excuse for Congress not

And so, the voices of the American people have to be heard in this
dialogue. And today may not have been a mass shooting. But I can tell you
to the families of the victims, it felt like a mass shooting. And so,
every time we lose a life and it happens too often in our country, it
should be another wake-up call. When do we say enough is enough?

And for the family and the friends and the colleagues, and you in the
media, you put your lives on the line often. And you should be able to do
your job without this threat that`s out there.

Everyone should be able to live in our country. And, you know, the
fact of the matter is, the United States is unique. Why is it in our
country that we have so many of these incidents compared to the rest of the
world, the developed world for sure? And so, if there are steps that we
can take as a country, why aren`t we taking them?


HAYES: Part of my interview with President Obama`s senior adviser
Valerie Jarrett.

Joining me now, "Esquire" writer-at-large, Charlie Pierce, and Michael
Walden, president of Brennan Center for Justice, author of a fantastic
book, I recommend them to everyone. It`s called "The Second Amendment: A
Biography". It is now out in paperback.

You know, Charlie, I don`t want to luxuriate in the details of this
because that`s precisely what the killer wanted. And I felt today,
watching the video unfortunately that he had posted on Twitter, like that
we had crossed some horrible Rubicon. There is some moment in which twin
impulses of American life towards sort of attention and spectacle and
towards horrible gun violence had sort of merge and, you know, it felt like
some kind of moment of no going back.

What was your reaction?

is barbaric in its own way. In Newtown, it was, you know, very young
children being mowed down. In Charleston, it was people at prayer. In
this one, as you pointed out, there was video from the station that was
being watched by the loved ones of the two people who are killed. There`s
a video that was posted by the killer.

I mean, all this proves to me is that 1976 when they made the movie
"Network", Paddy Chayefsky was both prescient and sadly understated.

HAYES: Yes. Michael, your book spends a lot of time looking at the
Second Amendment and the conditions -- the historical social political
conditions under which it was written.

What would -- try to think about what the Founders would have made of

really, in writing the Second Amendment, so much of it was in Virginia,
where James Madison lived. What they were looking to do above all else was
to protect those state militias which were made of citizen soldiers who
were required to own a military weapon and there was their bulwark against

They could not have imagined that people would in a misguided way take
what they did centuries later and say that somehow it protects this kind of
demented and tragic activity. You know, throughout the country`s history,
the Second Amendment and the way we understand guns, which is unique, we`ve
always had a lot of guns but we`ve had gun laws and a sense of
responsibility, too. It`s only a fairly recent thing that somehow having
strong gun laws trampled on a sacred inviolable, individual right. That`s
not really the full history of the country.

HAYES: People on the other side of this say, you know, I`ve heard
them respond about not one more life, right? And they say, look, that`s a
crazy thing to say. You would not say it in any other context, right? We
could say, if we brought the speed limit down to 30 miles an hour, we would
probably save lives, but we make the tradeoff.

And this fundamentally, they will say, is a tradeoff of liberty.

WALDMAN: Well, you know, it`s interesting. As you know, it was only
in 2008, less than ten years ago, that the Supreme Court ruled that this
Second Amendment protected an individual right to gun ownership. That was
the first time that that had happened. But even in that opinion, Justice
Scalia who we know is such a rock ribbed interventionist conservative, he
said, yes, it is right but there can be limitations on that right, as there
are with any other right.

HAYES: Right.

WALDMAN: You know, as it`s known, you can`t shout falsely "fire" in a
crowded theater, and there are other kinds of limitations on rights for
public safety. And so, background checks, keeping guns out of the hands of
those who shouldn`t have them really doesn`t violate Scalia`s version of
the Second Amendment and it really shouldn`t violate anybody else`s.

HAYES: Charlie, you`ve covered American politics for a long time. Do
you think about America as a violent country?

PIERCE: I think America`s history is shot through with violence. And
I think there is something dread -- something has come dreadfully loose in
the country right now and I think you`ll be dealing with a piece of it
later in the show. An awful lot of stuff that was not permissible, either
in rhetoric or action, has become permissible. A lot of stuff that was in
the kind of foul tributaries of American life has made it into the

And I don`t know, given the nature of the modern media, whether or not
we can turn off that tap. And I`ll tell you the honest to God truth. It
is worrisome to be out on the campaign trail now.

It`s not terrifying. It`s nothing like following a rifle platoon into
the Hindu Cush or something. But there`s something unsettling and
something that`s come loose in the body politic and frankly, I`m worried
about it.

HAYES: It is disturbing. I think we have to mention the fact this
shooter, Charlie, to your point explicitly says, he praises other mass
shootings. It`s part of the reason I think that we don`t show the footage
because we have some data to suggest copycats are real thing.

He suggests other shootings. He praises them. He talked about Dylan
Roof essentially inviting a race war and that he is giving him that when
Charlie talks about something being shaken loose in the body politic --
when you think about the Second Amendment, right, in the context of them
trying to create a kind of governable order, it is hard for me to imagine
that they would have looked out into this country that is so many guns free
floating, the founders that is, and thought that was a sustainable

WALDMAN: Look, they were not in writing the Second Amendment, looking
to create a how-to manual for freelance insurrectionist or workplace
revenge killers. This was all about how to create their military system,
which was partly state militias and partly what they were very worried
about, which was a permanent United States army.

And throughout the country`s history, we`ve become kind of more
individualistic. We think of these things as being more individual rights.
But even in the Wild West, there were strong gun laws.

Now, in this particular case, we don`t know. From what we`ve learned
in the media about this individual, the way he was dismissed and the fear
of him that his employers had, this sounds like someone who should not have
had a gun.

HAYES: Although, Charlie, and this is something that again, the sort
of more -- I think the more honest and rational people who advocate against
gun safety regulation will say is, look, you know, if this guy didn`t fail
a mental health check, there`s all sorts of ways that whatever individual
gun law you propose wouldn`t have been the one to stop this particular
horrifying atrocity. What do you say when you`re confronted with that?

PIERCE: Do you know of any other law that is written specifically
because it will stop everything it`s trying to stop? That to me -- that
argument to me, it has come loose from earth and it is floating into the
ionosphere right now.

We write laws so as to control in the main the worst impulses of
ourselves as a people. If they don`t control them all the time, we don`t
assume they don`t work.

HAYES: Right.

WALDMAN: There is more and more data showing that the states that
have stronger laws have lower gun homicide and gun death rates. And that`s
counter to what the NRC says but it`s really true.

HAYES: And I would like to talk a little bit what the sort of
comparative situation looks like on this awful day, and lot of people in
mourning over this tragic murder.

Charlie Pierce, Michael Waldman, thank you both.

Still ahead, the horrific shooting this morning in Virginia, the
hundreds of multiple shootings that happened around the country.


FEMALE TV ANCHOR: We`re all in a state of shock. You can hear people
behind us in the newsroom crying. It is just really hard.

MALE TV ANCHOR: We`re holding back too.

FEMALE TV ANCHOR: It is really hard to comprehend. We cover these
all the time but it`s really tough. Tough covering it when you don`t know
the people. When it is two of your own, and so young and just -- we have
no idea what happened.




JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It`s a tragedy. I don`t have
enough details to determine what the reason for all this was. Clearly a
tragedy when you have, in a free society, having violence take place.


HAYES: Jeb Bush responding to the shooting in Roanoke amid the fans.

If the U.S. is a free society, it is also a heavily armed society with
the highest per capita ownership in the world.

Up next, why shootings represent the dark side of American


HAYES: Under the loosest definition of a mass shooting, what happened
today in Virginia brings the total numbers of such incidents in this
country to 246 for this year alone. According to the crowdsourced mass
shooting tracker, that`s a rate of more than one per day.

Now, this does not happen anywhere else in the world. It is a
uniquely American phenomenon.

According to a new study out this week, from the American sociological
association, while the U.S. has just 5 percent of the world`s population,
it has had 31 percent of the mass shootings over the last century, five
time as many as the runner up, the Philippines.

And no coincidence, we`re also number one in the world for civilian
gun ownership, according to the study`s author, citing a 2007 survey which
found an average of 88.8 firearms for 100 people in the U.S. That has
probably gone up. Compare that to the next highest rate, in Yemen, 54.8
per hundred people. And while it feels like the recent cycle of shootings
has been relentless, Charleston, Lafayette, now, Franklin County, Virginia,
most mass killings barely even make the local news.

According to new "Huffington Post" analysis of mass shooting data,
most of them are neither ideological nor random. They happen in people`s
homes and they are nothing if not personal.

I`m joined now by the author of that piece, "Huffington Post" senior
editor Melissa Jeltsen, and Colin Goddard, survivor of the Virginia Tech
shooting, who`s now a senior policy advocate for Everytown for Gun Safety.

And, Colin, let me start with you because you survived that horrible
day at Virginia Tech.

Hearing that this shooter really was trying to make a spectacle of
himself, and is citing other mass shootings, including the one that you
survived. What is -- what is your reaction to that?

to hear that. I don`t know what else to say. You know, when I woke up
this morning and I saw the news break on television -- you know, the fact
this happened on live television, you know, it showed America a small
glimpse of what a shooting scenario is actually like.

You hear the gunshots. You hear the screams. You can feel in a small
way the horror that happens when these situations occur.

And the fact this happens to 88 of us on a daily basis means that, you
know, this is a serious problem that we have to address. And so, to watch
another one unfold, to hear our elected officials again give platitudes,
their thoughts and prayers, and have the conversation end there again is
infuriating and something must change and have to be done to avoid the same
scenario from occurring again in another few weeks.

HAYES: Melissa, you wrote this great article. It caught my attention
before today. You basically, we`re missing -- the headline says we`re
missing the big picture on multiple shootings, mass shootings. And there
is some quibbling about the statistically definition of "mass."


HAYES: What is the big picture we`re missing?

JELTSEN: Well, for the most part, the mass shootings that we hear
about in this country happening in public. So just this summer, we`ve had
the shooting in Charleston, the Lafayette shooting at a movie theater and
it makes sense that we pay attention to these because they feel really

HAYES: Or one on live television which for that reason is horrifying.

JELTSEN: Yes, it feels frightening and it feels indiscriminate and
people get really scary. So, it makes sense we pay attention. But the
reality is that most mass shootings take place in the home. And the
victims are not random. They`re usually family members. The gunmen are
killing their wives, their ex-wives, their children.

HAYES: Yes. This data shows this is mostly happening, mostly
overwhelmingly men. Overwhelmingly men who are coming after intimate
partners of some kind and other people are caught in the fire.

JELTESEN: So, we looked through five years of mass shooting date and
we found that 70 percent take place in the home, which is crazy considering
we don`t hear about these shootings. We only hear about the ones that
happen in public. And then 57 percent of those shootings involved an
intimate partner or a family member, which means they went after a wife, an
ex-wife, a girlfriend, children.

And what`s particularly interesting if you dig into the data a little
bit more, if you just look at those shootings, which are intimate partner
and family violence, 81 percent of the victims are women and children. So,
they`re paying the price.

HAYES: Colin, there`s -- I was looking today through the comparative
data of 36 nations of the OECD, which is sort of developed democracies, the
U.S. I believe is the third highest per capita homicide rate. But a bunch
of other crimes, burglaries, for instance, were just right at the median.
There is very strong evidence the one thing that separates us is just the
availability of, say, a Glock handgun like the shooter in this case was
able to get his hands on.

GODDARD: You`re absolutely right. America does not have some sort of
monopoly on disgruntled employees or people suffering from mental illness.
Yet, we have astronomically higher gun homicide and suicide rates compared
to other modern industrialized countries.

And a significant part of that is the easy accessibility that we allow
firearms in America. We don`t even do background checks on all gun sales
in this country. I think people need to understand that background checks
is not norm in America. It needs to be.

And also, we have the culture that says using a gun this way is an
acceptable way to resolve conflict or solve your problem, right? There is
something that has to change in this country and disconnect has to close
between us and our elected officials.

HAYES: Let me push back in that. I mean, I don`t think we have a
culture that in which anyone would say that what happened today is an OK
way to solve a problem, right?

GODDARD: Not in that regard. But it`s done so -- it`s so commonplace
that it`s emulated by people --

HAYES: Right.

GOODARD: -- just as it`s done today. And so, right, it`s not no one
thinks that this is a proper way to do it, but the same time, you know, the
media and the culture we talk -- you know, this is propagated and talked
about and elevated to this extent, such that people think that this is a
way out, this is how they have to do it

HAYES: You also get, I think part of the point of your piece. And I
think this is a really important thing to sort of stress here, you get a
mismatch in terms of what people`s fears are and what`s actually happening,


HAYES: So people, we`re talking about now, we`re talking about
searching in movie theaters, right? Because we`ve had a number of these,
and they`re just terrifying. The thought that that could happen, really,
it`s boyfriends and husbands who are abusers, killing women and children.
That`s the real threat here.

JELTSEN: And what we know about that is, we`ve done a lot of research
around domestic homicides, and there are so many warning signs that occur
before homicides take place. So, we know what the warning signs are. If
an abuser has access to a gun, eight times more likely the woman will be
killed. When she is leaving an abusive partner, she`s more likely. If
she`s been strangled, that`s another predictor --



So, some police departments around the country are now screening women
to work out who are at the most risk of being killed so they can, you know,
target and have some intervention. But we know the risk factors. If we
paid more attention to these domestic violence situations in the homes, it
could potentially stop some mass shootings.

HAYES: Melissa Jeltsen and Colin Goddard -- Melissa, great reporting.
It`s a really good piece. Thank you both.

We`ll be right back.


HAYES: It was an intense scene at Donald Trump`s news conference
last night with Univision anchor Jorge Ramos being thrown out after trying
to press Trump on his immigration policy, and Trump immediately getting
asked why by reporters.


TRUMP: He just stands up and starts screaming. So you know, maybe he
is at fault also. And this guy stags up and starts screaming. He is
obviously a very emotional person.


HAYES: Coming up, the fallout including what went down in the hallway
where an apparent Trump supporter confronted Ramos and what he said, that`s


HAYES: Donald Trump loves to metaphorically beat up on people and on
things. And some of his favorites -- Mexico and Mexican immigrants, and of
course there`s also China.


TRUMP: What China has done to the United States is the greatest
single theft in the history of the world.

They took our jobs, they took our money, they took our base, they took
our manufacturing.

China is killing us. China has taken so much of our wealth. They`ve
taken our jobs, they`ve taken our businesses, they`ve taken our
manufacturing, they take our jobs, they take everything. And we owe them

We owe them 1.4 trillion. It`s like a magic act. I call it the magic
act in

Now who is tougher on the Chinese than me? I love them. I have
respect for them. I just hate what they do to our (inaudible). But who is
tougher than me?


HAYES: Other GOP candidates are now working to see who can outbid
Trump at the anti-China animus auction with Scott Walker doing his best to
get out ahead saying this week the president should, quote, show some
backbone and cancel the Chinese state visit.


SCOTT WALKER, GOVERNOR OF WISCONSIN: Why would we be giving one of
our highest things our president can do, and that is a state dinner for Xi
Jinping, the head of China at a time when these problems are pending out
there? We should say those should only -- those honors should only be
bestowed upon leaders and countries that are allies and supporters of the
United States, not just for China which is a strategic competitor.


HAYES: As Betsy Woodruff astutely points out at The Daily Beast, just
a few short years ago, Walker was singing a very different tune appearing
in 2012 Chinese state TV wearing a U.S./China lapel pin, one of those
little friendship pins, you can see it right there, calling the trade
status quo, quote, good and fair.

Next year he traveled to China itself to meet the president as part of
a trade mission, even riding a Harley-Davidson at the opening of a
dealership as part of the seven-day, four city trip.

So, what could possibly have changed, caused a change in heart?

Joining me now, Orville Schell, who has reported on China since the
70s, currently director of the Center on U.S. China relations at Asia-

There is a lot of this I feel like from politicians. They understand
that a certain amount of China bashing on the stump is popular, both
Democrat and Republican side of the aisle, but also when they are governors
they want to go over there for -- make sure that their meat gets exported
there and all this stuff. I mean, this is pretty common right?

ORVILLE SCHELL, JOURNALIST: Yes. And I think we`ve seen in every
election the tendency during the run up to the election, people to mouth
off a bit, take extreme positions. And IK think now in this sort of
present situation where we have so many Republicans who are having a
terribly difficult time differentiating themselves, there is even a more
exaggerated tendency to say extreme things. And China is a good pin

And I have to say, of course, China has done a number of provocative
things that make it very easy for Americans to wonder what the hell are we
doing with -- you know, being friends.

HAYES: Yeah, I think that the relationship is so complicated and so
hard for anyone to understand, and sort of the average voter to understand.

One of the things I think that`s interesting in Trump`s rhetoric is
this idea that their leaders are so brilliant. And you see this all the
time: Tom Friedman columns. It`s this certain kind of idea that like the
Chinese rulers have it sort of figured out.

What do you think about that?

SCHELL: Well, I think until four or five weeks ago, there was a bit
of that sense of their invincibility, of their omnipotence, that somehow
they had a better calibrated system to get ahead in the world than we did.
We were in decline. Washington is gridlocked et cetera, et cetera.

Well, then in the last month or so, we`ve seen housing bubble, we`ve
seen sunken ship in the Yangtze River, we`ve seen a stock market crash, a
warehouse explosion, a lot of things, which have put some puncture holes in
that Chinese mythology.

HAYES: You know, I have only been to China once. I was there for
about a week-and-a-half and it was with some other journalists. And we
were interviewing Chinese leaders.

And the thing that was must striking to me in these interviews, time
after time, was it really -- I went over there thinking like, they`ve
really got it. They`re in control. They have got it figured out. And it
seemed to me more talking to them, like they`re terrified that they could
lose their grip at any moment.

There is this sense that they`re kind of barely holding it together.
And you see these moments like in Tianjin where the explosion happened
where you start to see some kind of popular revolt. And it is unclear just
how stable the whole thing is.

SCHELL: Well, I think the Chinese Communist Party has a very evolved
of theater and ritual. So from the outside, it looks one way. But if you
can draw back the curtain, which is not easy to do, because it is not a
very transparent society, and you look behind, you do see that they have
many, many problems. And they`re aware of the problems that they have.

And they`re deep, because this is a society in the most tectonic kind
of change and self-reinvention. So there are many contradictions at work
and I think it makes them feel very uneasy.

HAYES: On the stump in Iowa, it`s particularly striking to me, Donald
Trump was going after China. You`ve seen that from other people. I mean,
I was basically, I was entire meat exports are going to China right now. I
mean, if there is one group of people that should be psyched about China`s
growth, it is basically America`s farmers, if I`m not mistaken.

SCHELL: Well, any of these people who were governors or senators are
going to have a specific state interest. And very often, that is in trade.

So, you will see this sort of cognitive dissonance between them acting
as governors and they`re acting now as candidates.

But you know, if you`re going to represent the United States, then you
do have to deal with a whole other host of problems and China is an
difficult country for the United States to deal with.

And I think also, you know, there is a failure to recognize at this
stage in the presidential election, that we have no choice but to deal with

HAYES: That is always sort of the issue underlying all this.

Orville Schell, thanks for joining us.

Up next, what happened after journalist Jorge Ramos was thrown out of
Donald Trump`s news conference last night.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were very rude. It is not about you. Get out
of my country. Get out.

JORGE RAMOS, UNIVISION: I am a U.S. citizen too.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, whatever. No. Univision? No. It is not
about you.

RAMOS: It`s not about you, it is about the United States.



HAYES: This morning top tennis player in the world took on the role:
goodwill ambassador for UNICEF. In taking the appointment today, Novak
Djokovic spoke of the importance of helping children across the world in
the earliest stages of their development, something his foundation has been
working on for years.

I got a chance to talk with the tennis champion about his
Philanthropy, about his foundation, his career, and whether his own young
son will be following in his footprints.


question on when my -- there`s to question whether my son will play tennis,
it is a question of when he will start.

So I will definitely not make my son play tennis. If you ask me now,
I don`t know if I would like him to go through same thing.

HAYES: Do you mean that?

DJOKOVIC: I did. Yeah, do I mean that.


HAYES: We`ll have my complete interview with Novak Djokovic, a
phenomenal athlete. You don`t want to miss it.


TRUMP: Excuse me. Sit down. You weren`t called. Sit down.

Go ahead. No, you don`t. You haven`t been called.

RAMOS: I have the right to ask a question.

TRUMP: Go back to Univision.


HAYES: Last night, Univision reporter Jorge Ramos was thrown out of a
Donald Trump news conference after interrupting to press Trump over his
call to deport everyone of the roughly 11 million undocumented immigrants
in the U.S.

After he was ejected, Ramos was confronted by an apparently Trump
supporter in the hallway. Listen closely.


UNIDENITIFED MALE: You were very rude. It is not about you. Get out
of my country. Get out.

RAMOS: This is my -- I am a U.S. citizen too.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, whatever. No, Univision. No. It`s not
about you.

RAMOS: It`s not about you. It is about the United States.


HAYES: Get out of my country. The Trump campaign told the
International Business Times the man confronted Ramos is not affiliated
with the campaign. Trump staffer eventually invited Ramos back into the
news conference on the condition he wait to be called on to ask a question.

The two men then engaged in a intense exchange over Trump`s
immigration policy, which included, Ramos noting, that 75 percent of
Latinos, contrary to what Trump says about himself, 75 percent of Latinos
have a negative view of Trump.


TRUMP: Do you know how many Latinos work for me? Do you know how
many Hispanics are working for me? OK. They love me. They love me.

Do you know how many Hispanics work for me? Thousands. Do you know
how many have worked for me over the years? Tens of thousands.

Here`s what happens. Once I win, you`re going to see things happen.


HAYES: On the NBC`s Today Show this morning, Trump said that Ramos
who has been called the Spanish language Walter Cronkite behaved


TRUMP: He was totally out of line last night. I was being asked a
from another report. I would have gotten to him very quickly. And he
stood up and started ranting and raving like a madman.


HAYES: For his part, Ramos is not claiming to be objective.


RAMOS: Look, this is not politics for us, this is personal. When he
is talking about immigrants, he is talking about me.

The things that he considers just blunt talk, it is clearly offensive.
And it is having an immediate political impact.


HAYES: For all the ugliness that has come with it, Trump`s presence
in the GOP race, has been enormously clarifying when it comes to the actual
real world stakes in the immigration debate.

Last night on Fox News, Ted Cruz was asked a question at the very core
of GOP immigration rhetoric, whether he would deport the American citizen
children of undocumented immigrants. Think about this, he`s being asked
would he deport American citizens just like Trump.

And Cruz`s squirrely response spoke volumes and we`ll bring it to you


HAYES: All right, we`re just getting word that the CEO of Univision
who of
course, the employer for Jorge Ramos is saying Trump has demonstrated
complete disregard for Ramos and his viewers in a statement. We`ll bring
you more of that if we get it.

Joining me now is Maria Hinojosa, anchor and executive of NPR`s Latino
USA, and MSNBC contributor Josh Barro correspondent for the Upshot at The
New York Times.

Maria, there has been an interesting response to what happened last
night. You would I think expect journalists to kind of close ranks around
a fellow reporter who is thrown out, but a lot of people felt that Ramos
was making a spectacle of himself or he was jumping out of turn.

What is your reaction both to what happened and the reaction to it?

HAYES: Well, to see what happened actually was very distressing
frankly as a journalist. I mean, look journalists, rough and tumble you
guys. I mean, we shout out questions. We understand that. I haven`t
spoken to Jorge. I don`t know if he had tried to reach out to Trump before
and was just silenced and given a no answer. We know that he did -- Trump
did the same thing to Jose Diaz-Balart, basically silencing him.

So my response to reporters is, yeah, OK, we understand that this
sometimes what happens in a news conference. But what`s distressing to me,
actually, Chris, and it saddens me to have to say this. But if we were to
change this scenario and Lester Holt or esteemed New York Times columnist
Charles Blow were asking a question and that security guard took on those
esteemed African-American journalists the way Jorge Ramos was taken on. I
would like to see what the reaction would be then.

What if it was Katie Couric who was asking a questions about Trump`s
position on women and some of the comments that people believe are sexist?
What if Tom Brokaw was trying to ask a question? Would that same attitude

So, what I`m hearing from Latino journalists is that this is a moment
that is problematic on the part of a presidential candidate.

And, yeah, I go back to what Jorge Ramos said. He`s never like me
been thrown out of a news conference in our entire careers. And then for
this to happen from a presidential candidate to throw out an American
citizen journalist? It is distressing, honestly.

HAYES: To what Maria just said, Josh, part of what I think the --
there`s a little bit of a culture gap happening here. And I`ve been sort
of trying to think hard about this, which is -- you know, Trump is saying
things that are really horrible things to say about a group of people. And
I think there is a little bit of a remove of just how offensive that is in
a media that is not dominated by Latinos.

And so I think the reaction is sort of refracted through that.

JOSH BARRO, UPSHOT: Well, it`s not just Latino who Trump has said
offensive things to or about. I think it`s that Trump has said and do many
outrageous things over the last two months that people are no longer able
to be shocked or surprised by it. And we`ve also watched as the media said
over and over again, oh, this is the thing that does Trump in. And it`s

And so now you can`t just write Trump off because he does something
awful, because the electorate is not writing him off.

I thought this moment was really interesting for something it
demonstrated about Trump, which is how, you know, he has him thrown out --
and then brings him back in and has this five-minute exchange with him.
And it`s this overall pattern in Trumps interactions with people where it`s
like he can be screaming at you one
minute and you`re in a horrible fight and then it`s back to business as
usual from his perspective the next minute. I think that`s part of why
we`re sort of numb to Trump having these interactions, because he can go
back to having you right back in the press conference taking your

HAYES: Maria, can I play this clip last night, because I do think
that one of things that has been clarifying is Trump saying I want to
deport the 11 million, that`s my stated policy position.

HINOJOSA: Which by the way would bankrupt, by the way, just so we`re
clear. In terms of the economy, that idea, I mean, that`s why as a
businessman, really, because that would bankrupt us. That is what we as
American citizens would have to basically pay to try to deport all that .
So that is just an unrealistic economic argument instead of actually, what
would happen if you were to bring them into the American economy. But go

HAYES: Now, watch this -- watch Ted Cruz get this question from Megyn
Kelly and his response. Take a look.


MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS: Do American citizen children of two illegal
immigrants who are born here, the children, did they get deported under a
President Cruz?

CRUZ: Megyn, I get that that`s the question you want to ask, that`s
also the question every mainstream media liberal journalist wants to ask.

KELLY: Well, why is it so hard? Why don`t you just say yes or no?

CRUZ: Because, Megyn, we need to solve the problem.


HAYES: I mean, that`s a kind of amazing moment. Would you deport
citizens is the question? And Ted Cruz cannot say no, of course I would
not deport
American citizens.

HINOJOSA: It is an historical moment. I happened to have been with
lawyers here in Chicago who are talking about an American citizen who was
held in a detention center for over two years.

So I know that people, I appreciate what you said, Chris, which is
you`re trying to understand the culture gap. There is a culture gap.
Latino are not present in the mainstream media. And so that statement that
Trump made, which was go back to Univision, or go back to Univision, for
Latinos as I`m heard in my reporting, that`s hate speak.

And that actually the door for people to say the same thing me,
because I was born in Mexico, and I`m an American citizen. And I grew up
in the city of Chicago, more American through and through.

But I know that what`s going to happen is that people will say that,
oh, go back to Mexico. And it`s like really? Is that where we are? Where
it`s like where you were born? It`s not setting us forward.

I don`t really see a path forward. And I`m not really sure to what
end. Because he`s not going to be able to be elected unless he has got
more than half the Latino vote.

HAYES: That is the question in the primary, right, is that the go --
get out of my country caucus -- the question is, how big is the get out of
my country caucus that is the math right now.

BARRO: It`s definitely larger than the Hispanic vote in the
Republican primary. I mean, Trump likes to point out that he`s leading
with Hispanics in
the Republican primary, but that`s not that large a group.

Although, I would know, you know, Trump has a 75 percent disapproval
rating among Hispanics. There are 54 million Hispanics in the U.S. That
leaves, you know, 13 million Hispanics or so with a positive view of Donald
Trump which I
think he would point out is a lot of people.

HAYES: Maria Hinojosa.

HINJOSA: I don`t know who -- I don`t where you`re finding those
Latinos who are saying they like Donald Trump. But here`s what I think,
there is a saying in Spanish, (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE) it means that
things back fire on you. And you know what, without Latino voters, this
could back fire on Donald Trump.

HAYES: Maria Hinojosa and Josh Barro, thank you. That is All In for
this evening, the Rachel Maddow Show starts now.


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