Skip navigation

All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, September 3rd, 2015

Read the transcript from the Thursday show

  Most Popular
Most viewed

Date: September 3, 2015
Guest: McKay Coppins, Gabe Sherman, Joaquin Castro, Dave Zirin


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --


HAYES: Trump promises he won`t run as an independent candidate at a
positively surreal news conference in New York.

TRUMP: Do they like me in Indonesia?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Thank you very much.

HAYES: Then, Bernie Sanders hits Iowa as Joe Biden stokes 2016
speculation in Florida and Georgia.

Plus, jail time for the Kentucky clerk who wouldn`t marry same-sex

And upon further review, a judge throws out Tom Brady`s suspension and
Pats Nation rejoices.

ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

It`s official. Donald Trump is formally, more or less, at least for
the moment a loyal Republican. After making waves at the first GOP debate
for being the only candidate on the debate stage who wouldn`t rule out a
third party run, today, Trump met with RNC chair Reince Priebus at Trump
Tower, just up the street in 30 Rock, at a press conference I attended this
afternoon. My first up close experience for the Trump show, the GOP
frontrunner made a big announcement.


TRUMP: The best way for the Republicans to win is if I win the
nomination and go directly against whoever they happen to put up. For that
reason, I have signed the pledge.

So, I will be totally pledging my allegiance to the Republican Party
and the conservative principles for which it stands. And we will go out
and we will fight hard. And we will win.


HAYES: There was a bit of snag with the official pledge document in
which Trump vows to back the eventual Republican nominee. You may notice
it`s dated August 3rd -- as Rick Perry would say -- oops.

Fortunately, the campaign distributed a corrected copy, all is now
right with the world.

Trump`s change of heart comes as the top establishment candidate, Jeb
Bush, is intensifying his attacks on the Republican front runner and this
new national polling shows Bush falling behind while Trump and two other
candidates, Ben Carson and Ted Cruz, continue to gain ground.

According to Matt Bruenig at Demos, for the first time in the campaign
that anti-establishment block of Trump, Carson and Cruz has accumulative
majority in "The Huffington Post" polling average for the total of 51.8

Ladies and gentlemen, your Republican primary.

Now, I got to see first hand, up close, the Trump show in all its
bizarre and surreal, gory -- if you call it that -- ignominy. And the
first thing I noticed during his press conference is that for a guy who`s
got a reputation as a straight talker who shoots from the hip and answers
any questions, he`s become relentlessly on message. It doesn`t matter what
you ask. You get back one of five answers as I learned firsthand when I
asked the first question at the press conference trying to get him to
explain why anyone should believe he`ll stand by this pledge.


HAYES: You bragged in the past about how when it suits you, you have
used bankruptcy laws, you joked to the audience in Alabama about taking
lobbyist money and screwing them over afterwards. Why would anyone think
this pledge means anything?

TRUMP: This is a self-funded campaign. We have our heart in it. We
have our soul in it. I don`t need money. I don`t want money. And this is
going to be a campaign like I think no other.


HAYES: Make America great again.

The scene there was positively surreal. There was a crowd outside and
inside, largely the kind of crowd that`s attracted by the crowd that you
sometimes see in midtown. But then up near the front, a lot of young, very
well-put together stylish people with -- men in suits, we would later learn
part of an Indonesian legislative delegation standing next to each other
holding the silent majority stands with Trump signs, and taking selfies and

The silent majority in this case apparently being young fashionable
New Yorkers and Indonesian legislators, one of whom would get a shout out
from Trump later on.


TRUMP: Ladies and gentlemen, this is a very -- an amazing man. He is
-- as you know, right, he`s speaker of the house of Indonesia. He`s here
to see me. Setya Novatno (ph) one of the most powerful men and a great
man, and his whole group is here to see me today.

And we will do great things for the United States. Is that correct?


TRUMP: Do they like me in Indonesia?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Thank you very much.

TRUMP: Speaker of the house in Indonesia, thank you very much.


HAYES: I mean, honestly, what`s the dude going to say in that
situation? No, they don`t like you. They have never heard of you. They
liked your show.

And this is the best part, they handed out this packet to all the
press. The silent majority stands with Trump. That`s a press packet, you
get at these events. I thought policy makers, maybe, some position, some
articles about Donald Trump.

No, no, entirely filled with polls, OK? The whole thing, and polls
that look like they were designed by your mom on print shop in 1998 and
then Xerox at Kinko`s color copier in the wee hours of the morning before a

There`s this. There`s random screen shots of cable news like this one
of John King in front of the big board for CNN.

There`s even a Rachel Maddow full screen, un-credited I should note.
All of which showed Trump in the lead. And later, to complete the circle,
Trump would refer to the documents that had been passed out.


TRUMP: I love the Hispanics. I have thousands of Hispanics right now
working for me. Over the years, I have employed tens of thousands of
Hispanics, many from Mexico. I have unbelievably great relationships.

In the package that we gave you, you will see there is a poll. I`m
number one with Hispanics. You saw that. Number one with Hispanics.


HAYES: Number one, OK, I have that poll. Trump was referring to it
right here. Like much of what`s in the packet, it appears to be a screen
grab from news broadcast. It`s blurry. This one from Univision of all

Here`s the thing about this particular poll which comes from Public
Policy Polling, a liberal leaning firm. You`ll notice the numbers add up
to more than 100 percent, that`s because they represent the candidate`s
favorability ratings, not their overall support.

In other word`s Trump`s favorability is 30 points under water. About
two-thirds of those poll don`t like him. Don`t really like any over people
in the field either. What is not clear in the Univision graphic is the
people surveyed were registered voters who self-identified as Hispanics.

"Business Insider" talked to the director of Public Policy Polling in
July about Trump`s continued misuse of those results, he told them, quote,
"Several other Republicans do better head to head against Clinton with
Hispanics than Trump does. It`s a pretty novel interpretation of poll
results! On the whole his numbers with minorities are pretty terrible."

Joining me now, McKay Coppins, senior political writer for "BuzzFeed",
Gabe Sherman, national affairs editor at "New York Magazine." I seriously
-- there were moments when I was like, am I being pranked? Is this a joke?
Sometimes they make viral videos with a fake store and they record it.
Like I felt it was like that for campaign reporters.

Am I being -- is there a camera on me to see? I cannot believe this
is real.

MCKAY COPPINS, BUZZFEED: That was the whole time I spent with him
last year when I ended up going to his compound in Florida, like it felt
like it was all a cartoon in some weird way, I`m like -- it`s very surreal.
What`s interesting is the way Trump commands it all. It`s a world of his
own making and he occupies it so fully and so commandingly, that you just
buy into it, you know? You can see how he`s sucked so many Republican
voters to him in that way.

HAYES: It felt like a camp movies Hollywood version of a presidential


GABE SHERMAN, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: My favorite part is Reince Priebus
had to go to Trump Tower. The optics of that --

HAYES: Yes, that`s amazing.

SHERMAN: -- the chairman of the Republican Party walking into Trump
Tower essentially to do Trump`s bidding. I mean, just the power dynamics
there alone are fascinating.

HAYES: I have heard speculation from sources that this was all
engineered by Reince Priebus to make the RNC look good and on top of things
and that they are actually in control. But it does not look that way.
Reince Priebus has to go kiss his ring at his eponymous skyscraper in
Manhattan, right?

HAYES: Here`s the thing, three quarters of the time I`m watching this
unfold. I`m like, this is bizarre. It`s like, it`s entertaining. He says
some things that I think are funny.

And then a quarter of the time like this is very ugly. There`s
something very ugly here. Let me give you an example. There was a protest
by people protesting his comments on immigration. There`s a provocative
protest on the sidewalk. People dressed as KKK. People saying make
America racist again.

That`s coming right at him, right? This is not a guy who shirks from
this. And then, apparently, one of his security guards took a sign from a
man and this ensues. Take a look.


HAYES: Sign back. He`s grabbing onto him. He gets cold-cocked in
the head. So that was the scene today after that whole thing, after the
short of bizarre, surreal and somewhat humorous events went down. That`s
on a public sidewalk. Just a straight-up punch in the face.

You know who that guy is.

COPPINS: That`s his personal body guard who`s been with him a long
time. He was a former NYPD detective. I spent time with him. What`s
interesting is he struck me out of all --

HAYES: What`s the name?

COPPINS: Keith Schiler (ph). Out of Donald Trump`s yes men, his
aides, he struck me as the most loyal. He really, really wants to protect
Donald Trump. And, remember, Donald Trump surrounds himself with people
who try to imitate him, who try to inhabit his kind of persona. This is
the ugly side of that.

HAYES: I mean, that is also -- am I mistaken that`s the guy that
threw out Jorge Ramos?

COPPINS: I believe so.

HAYES: We remember in that moment when he was asked why he threw him
out, Trump said, I don`t know. The security came -- as if he didn`t know
who the dude was.

SHERMAN: Well, here`s another interesting point, as much as Trump has
now pledged to back the eventual nominee, the other candidates in the race
have essentially pledged to back him. If he somehow emerges as a nominee,
Jeb Bush on down have to back Donald Trump.

And I think that is a reckoning that the Republican Party hasn`t
grappled with. They have committed to backing Donald Trump.

HAYES: This is the point Jonathan Chait made I thought in a very good
piece the other day, where he said, look, the problem for Republicans is
one of two options. One, he bolts and runs third party which is electoral
doom in the general. The other is you keep a man by essentially embracing
him and saying this guy is a Republican.

And the more you do that, can we show the approval among Latino

It`s true. He has higher than the other approval than the other
people. Jeb Bush is 31 percent. Ted Cruz at 30 percent. Marco Rubio at
29 percent. I mean, this is that -- those are disastrous numbers and
that`s the problem.

And now, we have footage of his body guard punching what appears to be
a Latino man, cold-cocking him in the head after the event.

COPPINS: I mean, the thing about Donald Trump, I mean, look, your
question was right. This pledge doesn`t mean anything in terms of, you
know, Donald Trump`s word is not stronger than oak. He`s not going to
follow this.

But there are reasons for him to sign it. And one of the big ones --
right after the FOX News debate, one of the only things, arguably the only
thing he did that seriously brought unfavorable opinions from Republican
voters if you looked at focus groups and talked to voters and polls was his
inability to commit to endorsing the eventually nominee.

SHERMAN: This neutralizes an attack line going into the CNN debate
this month where he can say I signed the pledge. Immediately, that`s off
the table.

HAYES: And the key attack against him will be, as we get further on,
if you vote for this guy, he will get creamed by Hillary, right? That`s
going to be the attack. That was the line against Howard Dean back in
2004. It wasn`t substantive. It wasn`t like I don`t care how you feel
about this guy. If he`s our nominee, he will lose to George W. Bush.
That`s a persuasive argument with people who are fairly savvy if they are
voting in a primary.

The question is whether it will work? You got the Carson, Cruz, Trump
caucus now above 51 percent.

SHERMAN: I mean, in Iowa and New Hampshire, Trump is polling higher
than the establishment candidates combined. It`s incredible.

HAYES: As you can find out from the packet of blurry screen grabs we
were given today.

And, McKay Coppins, Gabe Sherman, thank you very much.

COPPINS: Thank you.

HAYES: Still to come we have learned a lot about Donald Trump this
election season. Turned out, he`s a man of many passions. We`ll show you
in just a minute.

Plus, how the Kentucky county clerk that refused to give same-sex
couples marriage licenses is turning into a litmus test for GOP
presidential hopefuls trying to claw their way into Trump`s shadow.

And later, sure the over-turned suspension for Tom Brady`s victory
with Patriot fans, but I`ll tell you how the unions, yes the unions, won as

Those stories and more, ahead.


HAYES: Up next, the presidential candidates coming to the defense of
the Kentucky court clerk who is refusing marriage licenses for same sex
couples. And we`re exactly sure where Donald Trump stands on the issue,
but we do know this. He has a lot of love to give.


TRUMP: Love.

And you what I love? I`m leading with Tea Party. Big. I love Tea
Party. I love the Tea Party!

Where are the children?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are off to the side here.

TRUMP: Get them over here. That`s great.

I love children. I love Iowa.

I mean, I love you people. I love Iowa.

Florida, I love Florida.

I love Nashville.

I love this country.

I love my kids. Come here, kids.

I love meeting the people.

I love the people.

I love people.

I love the people of Mexico.

I love the Hispanics.

Nobody loves Hispanics like I do. By the way, I love Mexican people.
I love China. I love the people of China. Just like in Mexico. I love
the people.

People said I don`t like Mexico. I love Mexico.

Whether it`s Japan, Mexico, China, I love them.

And now the Asians hate him. It`s true. But the Asians love me. And
I love them.

Do they like me in Indonesia?


TRUMP: And I love the "New York Times."

Oh, look, "The Art of the Deal". Come here, give me that book. I
love that book.

Nabisco, Oreos, right? Oreos. I love Oreos. I`ll never eat them

Israel, I love Israel, by the way.


TRUMP: You saw that. You know, I love the Bible.

I love the Bible. I love the Bible.

But I love the Bible.

You hated to leave church, evangelicals.

I love the evangelicals. I love them. They love me. They do love
me. Why do they love me? You will have to ask them.

Kanye West, you know what? I will never say bad about him. You know
why? Because he loves Trump. Kanye West, I love him.

Now, maybe in a few years I have to run against him, I don`t know.
So, I`ll take it back.




HAYES: A group of Republican presidential candidates, desperate for
attention in the summer of Trump today took a stand against the rule of
law, rallying behind Rowan County clerk Kim Davis in Kentucky, who in
defiance of a court order has refused to issue marriage licenses to same-
sex couples and was jailed for willful disobedience. She is set to be
heard until she agrees to comply.

Scene outside the courthouse today was intense, with same sex marriage
supporters clashing with those supporting Davis who cited religious beliefs
to refuse marriage licenses to same sex couples.


KIM DAVIS, ROWAN COUNTY CLERK: We are not giving licenses today.



DAVIS: Because I`m not doing marriage license today, we are pending

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Under whose authority? Under whose authority?

DAVIS: Under God`s authority.


HAYES: By same sex and opposite sex couples refusing to issue
licenses the Supreme Court struck down same sex marriage bans nationwide in


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not leaving until we have a license. We`re
not leaving until we have a license.

DAVIS: Then you`re going to have a long day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ll call the police. I will ask them to arrest


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Call the police. Call the police.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You should be ashamed of yourself. Everyone in
this office should be ashamed.


HAYES: Faced with possible jail time, five of Davis` deputy clerks
told the federal judge, they will comply with his order to issue marriage
licenses in Rowan County starting tomorrow morning. But Davis`s lawyer
said today the county clerk has no intention of backing down.


MAT STAVER, LIBERTY COUNSEL: Kim Davis may be behind bars for now.
But her conscious remains unshackled. She`s still a free come woman. One
of the things that she will not do is violate her conscience. She simply
can`t. She can`t violate who she is and she can`t violate the God whom she


HAYES: Republican presidential candidates Mike Huckabee and Ted Cruz
today jumped at the chance to support Davis. Cruz raising the specter of,
quote, "judicial tyranny and claiming against all evidence that those who
are persecuting Kim Davis believes that Christians should not serve in
public office."

Huckabee vowed to head to stand with Davis and added that, quote, "We
must end the criminalization of Christianity."

Then, there`s Rand Paul, who today said it`s, quote, "absurd to put
someone in jail for exercising their religious liberty."

But, of course, that`s not why Kim Davis was put in jail. She was put
in jail for defying a court order. And that stance puts Davis, as well as
Republicans backing her in league with people like former Alabama Governor
George Wallace, who refused to integrate Alabama schools despite court
orders and who history, to put it mildly, has not judged kindly.

Joining me now, MSNBC contributor Josh Barro, correspondent for
"Upshot" at "New York Times."

Should she be in county jail?

JOSH BARRO, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. I mean, I -- look, I think
something that Judge Bunning, by the way, who`s a George W. Bush appointee
said if you let people pick and choose which court orders to obey that
leads you to a very bad place.

So, there weren`t many remedies available. He could put her in jail
or he could fine her. The problem is that she has all these supporters who
would line up to pay fines for her. That would not be an effective way
likely of compelling here compliance.

So, really, I mean, he can`t fire her. We`re seeing a lot of people
on Twitter today saying, well, why not just fire her? A federal judge
cannot fire a local county clerk. In fact --

HAYES: She`s elected.

Let`s be clear -- the federal courts cannot say someone elected by the
people locally is no longer in office.

BARRO: Right. In fact, the only way she can be removed by the
legislature which is not in session. The governor won`t call a special

So, really, the only way the federal judge has available to him to
cause his order to be obeyed is to put her in jail. I think the optics of
it are not great.

HAYES: What do you mean?

BARRO: Well, because --

HAYES: That`s the thing I have seen people say. We are going to make
her a martyr. This is a bad idea.


HAYES: Which I think there is something to it.

BARRO: Yes, I think there is a sense among social conservatives that
they are oppressed, that they are not allowed to follow what they consider
to be their sincere religious beliefs. And this is a -- you know,
obviously, she could resign her job and would not have to issue anybody a
marriage license.

HAYES: Which is a solution that`s a correct solution.

BARRO: Losing your job is a significant hardship in your life. What
she would like to be the county clerk and not issue gay marriage licenses.
Now, obviously, that`s not allowed by the court. But I can understand why
she would want that.

So -- but I think it`s key to note, though, it`s not Judge Bunning`s
job to think about good optics for supporters of marriage equality. His
job is to get his court orders obeyed. And this is the remedy available to
him to do that.

HAYES: One thing that occurred to me is in some ways we made the
comparison to George Wallace and the campaign that was called Massive
Resistance throughout the South for years in defiance of desegregation.

There was a question about how much resistance we`d see. We are
focused on one person in one county going to jail for a few days and we
don`t know how long it will be, says to me that actually, there`s -- it`s
kind of the dog that didn`t bark.

BARRO: Yes. It`s rare. There have been counts of, you know, two or
three counties in some states. Most of the states that were the last state
where is gay marriage was legalized. Every county is issuing marriage
licenses. Although I would note this stuff could keep popping up in the
future, because a lot of these counties -- BuzzFeed, I think, called around
to counties in Texas and got some county with 2,000 residents and the clerk
said, do you know marriage licenses we issue in a year total? Like two or

HAYES: Right.

BARRO: So, in a lot of these places, the purely theoretical question
what would happen if somebody came in seeking a gay marriage license. We
can see years down the road then when this becomes a practical thing, what
happens with that. But I would note there is a broader discussion
happening about a sort of opt out for social conservatives. Plan A was to
impose a rule against gay marriage and when both public opinion and the
courts fell away from that, there is now an effort to try to basically
carve out a space to live in an anti-gay society within a place where the
norms and laws are going to be pro-gay.

And the questions are, what are the terms of the opt-out? And one
question is, will government employees be able to keep their jobs and never
be required to do things on gay marriage that they were opposed to,

And we saw in North Carolina, for example, pass a law saying
individual government employees can`t be required to issue gay marriage
licenses. Now, somebody still has to issue the license. It`s not like the
situation in Kentucky where the employee can block anybody from issuing it.
But this is a very much alive political question.


And the big question now is, do we see, is this a turning point, will
people rally to her and it becomes bigger or is this kind of a dead end
action. I would bet actually on the latter.

Josh Barro, thank you very much.

BARRO: Thank you.

HAYES: Coming up, how one horrifying image may have awoken the entire
world. Desperate refugee crisis unfolding in Europe, that`s ahead.



REPORTER: The fact there was no more space did nothing to stop those
struggling to reach the train doors. Children were passed overheads and
then through windows. Others waited patiently, bewildered and confused.


HAYES: It`s the worst refugee crisis in Europe since the Second World
War. Footage today showing refugees and migrants desperate to board a
train which they hoped was bound for Germany. The train was later stopped
by police and the people on board told they were neither going to Germany
nor to Austria.

At one point, a migrant family laid down on the tracks in protest,
according to ITV News, when they were told they would be transferred to a
Hungarian refugee camp. Some families were ultimately allowed to re-board
that particular train, but at this hour, it is unclear whether it was going
to resume its course.

All of those people appear in limbo, still waiting. And that`s just
one of the heart wrenching scenes out of Hungary, which has become one of
the epicenters of a crisis involving hundreds of thousands of people, from
Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan, from Libya, Eritrea and Nigeria, fleeing war
and poverty, which has become a political crisis in Europe as countries
fight over what to do and who should take responsibility.

And that crisis is no longer limited to the mainland Europe. In
Britain, the picture of this drowned Syrian Kurdish boy now identified as
3-year-old Aylan Kurdi galvanized a call to action.

And today, the British prime minister seemed to vow to that pressure,
agreeing to allow more Syrian refugees into the country. The number not
yet finalized. Canada also finds itself under scrutiny after the remaining
family of Aylan Kurdi said they applied for and were denied asylum in

The Canadian government says they have no record of that. The Kurd
was from a city called Kobani, it`s where the Kurds made a remarkable,
courageous stand against ISIS in Syria -- and here is what the city looked
like before the war and what it looks like now.

Again, before and after.

So, the question is what would make a family risk their lives to flee
to another country? This is what the answer is.

A question of what other nations should be doing applies to every
wealthy nation from England to Canada to the U.S.

And joining me now, Congressman Joaquin Castro of Texas.

And Congressman Castro, as someone whose mother came to this country
who comes from a lineage of people that moved one place to another, not
fleeing war in that particular case, what is your reaction to watching this
unfold in Europe?


Well, my grandmother came in 1922 as a young orphan. And the images
coming out of Europe are just absolutely heartbreaking, many of them shock
the conscience. The image of the 3-year-old boy who died off the Turkish
coast and that soldier carrying his body, that was on the front page of so
many newspapers today. And I think -- you know, I`ve got to imagine it
played a part in the UK changing its tone
and accepting -- agreeing to accept more refugees.

And I think that the United States and Canada should follow suit.

HAYES: Let`s press on that. Because we saw what happened politically
in this country when there was a wave of arguably refugees or migrants
coming from Central America, many of them children, many of them women.
People freaked out.

CASTRO: Right.

HAYES: Should the...

CASTRO: Yeah, no, Chris there is no question. The politics are very
difficult. Even last summer before Donald Trump started stoking fears
about an invasion of immigrants, the politics were tough even a year ago
when 68,000 migrants, most of them women and children came from Central
America, I think -- you know, this is where the politics and the political
tone in the country really does make a difference, because a Donald Trump
in the United States politics makes it harder for the United States
government and for its leaders to accept more of these refugees, which I
think morally they should.

HAYES: OK. So, let`s -- I mean, I think there is a real -- there is
leadership here that can be provided that 14 senators wrote a letter
earlier this year saying we should be taking more.

We took a thousand Syrian refugees last year. It looks like 8,000 in
the coming year. How many should we be taking and who -- are you going to
for us to take more?

CASTRO: Oh, absolutely.

And consider this as part of that call. I think that, you know, of
course congress has been out of session since July 30, at least the House
of Representatives has been. But as soon as we get back on September 8, I
believe that we should have hearings on this. And I think many of us will
take action.

And I think the United States should step up and take a stronger role
in accepting thousands of these refugees. You know, when we think of a
refugee today, I think part of the challenge for the country is that we are
still thinking of people who are fleeing communist dictators in the `60s
and `70s. You think about the thousands of Cubans who came fleeing Fidel
Castro and the Vietnamese who came after the Vietnam war.

And you know, in our minds we still think of people fleeing these
communist dictators, but really the situation around the world has changed
a lot since then, that`s very obvious. But I don`t know that that has made
it into our consciousness.

HAYES: You know, you talk about the political context, which I think
is a great point. One thing that occurs to me is one of the things you
hear from people
on the other side of the immigration debate, particularly conservatives or
Republicans is, look, we love legal immigration. We don`t like illegal
immigration. We don`t like people coming not through the proper channels.
This is an opportunity, it seems to me, to call that bluff and say, look,
let`s actually legally expand the number of refugees we are taking, put in
process to bring people, resettle them. We`ll know who these folks are.
This is not just people coming willy-nilly. We can do that. But let`s
actually step up and take lots more people.

CASTRO: No, I think that`s absolutely right.

Now, another part of the debate that we get into when you have
refugees from the Middle East, for example, is the stringent security
protocols that they have to go through to be allowed refugee status in this
country. And there has been a push-back to allowing thousands and
thousands of people to come here from the Middle East because of that.

You know, there are FBI checks, homeland security checks, and so on
and so on. And I expect that that will be part of the debate in the coming

HAYES: All right, Congressman Joaquin Castro, thank you very much.

We`ll be right back.


HAYES: Right now at this moment, Bernie Sanders just started speaking
at a
campaign event in Burlington, Iowa, his third in the state today. Sanders
continues to draw huge numbers of people to events across the country, even
having to change venues for two of his events this week because of rising
crowd estimates, according to his campaign.

Two polls have put the Vermont senator ahead of Hillary Clinton in New
Hampshire, another recent one put him within striking distance in Iowa,
trailing Clinton by just seven points.

A poll out yesterday, however, had him much further behind, Clinton
doubling his support in the state.

Sanders himself has refused to go after Clinton head on, but his
growing popularity is being used often quite opportunistically as a sharp
contrast to the former secretary of state. Headlines this week screamed of
Clinton`s under water favorability numbers and giving aid to those
desperate to construct a narrative of a Clinton campaign in free fall are
the steady stream of email stories.


KRISTEN WALKER: This is yet another blow to the Clinton campaign.
Her former staffer Brian Pagliano who helped set up the server that housed
Clinton`s private email account is invoking his fifth amendment right
refusing to answer questions about the emails before a congressional


HAYES: That Clinton staffer was subpoenaed by house committee
Benghazi, the same committee that called Cheryl Mills, another Clinton aide
testify today behind closed doors rejecting Mills` own request to make that
testimony public.

Meanwhile, Clinton`s campaign today argued that Clinton`s 20-point
national lead over other candidates puts her in a good position. But
hanging over everything is Vice President Joe Biden who has been stoking
interest, potential 2016 run.

Right now, he`s speaking at a synagogue in Atlanta, Georgia.

After making a series of public appearances at a Jewish community
center and college in Florida, Biden didn`t address the 2016 speculation,
but it has reached such a fevered pitch that even Donald Trump, who
presumably has no inside information about the vice president`s plans, was
asked to weigh in.


DONALD TRUMP, REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER: I think maybe he`s inclined not
to get in the race. I think it`s going to do depend on what happens with
Hillary Clinton.

A lot of people think that she will not be able to make it legally
from a criminal standpoint to the starting gate. I don`t know that to be

But I think it depends on what happens with her.

I think if she gets out he will get in. I think if she stays in, he
might not. Who knows?


HAYES: You know, I`m no fortune teller but Hillary Clinton is not
going to get out.

Joining me now MSNBC national correspondent Joy Reid.

So, we have got this strange situation, it strikes me, where Sanders
has this momentum. He`s got this tremendous grassroots support. There he
is. You can see him. That`s a guy who has been campaigning all day.

And if you -- can we listen to him for second. Just listen to him on
the stump.


SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I) VERMONT: This campaign is about bringing
people together. It`s about telling the 60 percent of Americans who did
not vote last
November that by not voting they are dishonoring their own kids and their
own parents.


HAYES: So, you can hear the hoarseness in his voice. You can hear --
I mean, this is a guy who`s -- he`s got on the stump. There`s a reason
people are coming out to listen to him. The bit question is like what`s
the path forward? What do you think?

JOY REID, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, it`s interesting, because you`re
right, it is sort of multidimensional chess that you have. The Bernie
people are devoted Bernie people. They are sort of -- are a mix of kind of
the Occupy Wall Street anger at the Wall Street and the banks and also
younger, sort of newer to the game, people who are not so steeped in
politics, who are sick of politics as usual. My daughter is one of them.
She likes Bernie Sanders. She likes him because he`s talking about making
college affordable and going after the banks. They like that message. It
seems un-Washington, even though he`s been in Washington for like 30 years.
But they like that. And they are devoted to him. And I think they`re
stuck. They`re going to stay there.

But these are people who I think at the end of the day would vote for
Hillary Clinton were she to become the nominee. I don`t think they`re
diehards. You have that.

HAYES: Right.

REID: Then you have got the Hillary crowd, which when I went to Iowa
-- Iowa is a much more liberal state, Democratic Party there is much more
liberal. But people are very -- you know -- they take their politics
obviously very seriously. The Hillary people I talked to were by and large
women, particularly women over 50 who are very much about getting a woman
in the White House.

And the Hillary people are also...

HAYES: Die hard.

REID: Die hard. And I think we underestimate in the media because
there is this media Schadenfreude about all things Clinton, and the media
always wants them to go down, let`s just be honest.

That we tend to underestimate how diehard the Hillary...

HAYES: This is a very important point. And I think you`re right.
One, it`s a missing part of the story about Hillary Clinton`s campaign,
which is this sort of like a collective -- this atmosphere of sort of
collective yawn that you get from the press, or like, oh, the Clintons
again. Or, you know, that there are -- whatever you think of Hillary
Clinton as a candidate substantively, political, as a candidate, put that
aside. There are a lots of people in this country who are devoted diehard
fans of Hillary Clinton and want nothing more than to see her elected
president. And those people are not reflected I think in the coverage.

REID: At all.

Remember, back in 2008 there were women, particularly, who were
supporters who were vowing not to vote for Barack Obama and to exit --
right, and to become Republicans, the Pumas, if she didn`t get the
nomination or if she didn`t get on the ticket. And there are still those
people out there.

Now, there also are other little pieces that are in the puzzle which
in the media don`t pay attention to. There are some people from `08 that
still hold a grudge against the Clintons, particularly African-Americans,
particularly African-American women that I spoke with that still are not
ready to embrace Hillary and that`s a problem for her. But where do they

HAYES: My own reporting and conversations I`ve encountered that same
thing. And at the same time, if you look at polling, she`s doing very well
with people of color. The thing Bernie Sanders has to figure out, because
he can`t -- he has got no path forward without voters of color in a
Democratic primary.

Now, the other thing is, if you show Joe Biden, who`s speaking right
now, who has been doing a kind of tour of American Jewish centers,
synagogues, talking to
the Jewish community about the Iran vote, you just covered him down in
Florida. What was it like? I mean, here he is doing a routine event down
there, right. But it`s routine under the (inaudible) of he might get in
the race.

REID: Yeah. And just FYI, these events were planned way before.
These are not spontaneous events that are some sort of, you know, mystical
thing where he is doing a campaign thing. He already had the fund-raisers
planned that he was doing weeks ago. Debbie Wasserman Schultz invited him
down. So, these were pre-planned events.

I didn`t get a sense of Bidenmentum on the ground. I`ll be honest
with you. I didn`t get that sense. People are saying it`s his own
decision, but people who love Obama people, Obama people, love him. They
want him to get in.

HAYES: That is where things get very interesting. Joy Reid, thanks
for all your reporting, for being on the trail.

REID: Thank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, Patriots nation celebrates today as Tom Brady`s
suspension is overturned in what becomes yet another loss for NFL
commissioner Roger Goodell and perhaps and probably a win for working men
and women. I will explain ahead.



TRUMP: You know, one of the things that I`m honored about is that so
far everybody that`s attacked me has gone down the tubes. You have Perry
attacked me, now he`s out of the race now. He was at 4 or 5 percent, now
he`s getting out of the race. He was at zero.


HAYES: Donald Trump just sort of offhandedly today declaring that
Texas Rick Perry is now out of running for president, this after Rick Perry
lost his entire campaign staff in New Hampshire. His political director in
that state defecting yesterday and Perry`s team in Iowa has since been
whittled down to one paid staffer while in South Carolina Perry staffers
were kicked off the payroll and asked to continue working for free.

When asked about it today, Rick Perry insisted he`s still in the race
while epitomizing why his candidacy is on the rocks.


MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS: Is Donald Trump right? Are you getting out of
the race?

PERRY: You know, a broken clock is right once a day. So, the bottom
line is I`m still here and I`m still working.


HAYES: Fool me once, shame on you -- fool me -- can`t get fooled
again. We`ll be right back.


HAYES: Huge victory today for Tom Brady and the Patriots nation as a
federal judge over turned the NFL`s four-game suspension of the New England
Patriots quarterback over the Deflategate scandal.

The base of that ruling seems to be that NFL commissioner Roger
Goodell did not treat Tom Brady fairly.

Back in May, the NFL announced that Brady would be suspended for four
games following an investigation that said, quote, based on the evidence it
is more probable than not that Tom Brady was at least generally aware of
the inappropriate activities including the release of air from Patriots
game balls.

It was at this time that a future presidential candidate made crystal
clear whose side he was on.


TRUMP: If I were Tom Brady I`d sue the hell out of the NFL for
$250 million. Sue them, Tom. They`ll settle so fast your head will spin.


HAYES: Your head will spill. Instead of doing that, Brady along with
players union decided to fight the suspension through the court system.
Today, as part of a 40 page ruling, federal judge Richard Berman wrote you
can`t suspend a person just because he may have been generally aware of
wrongdoing, writing, quote, no NFL policy or precedent notifies players
that they may be disciplined, much less suspended, for general awareness of
misconduct by others. This ruling appeared to question Roger Goodell`s
understanding of the NFL`s collective bargaining agreement struck with the
union and served as a reminder the power to punish players is not

There is, of course, great celebration in New England today, including
at one Dunkin Donuts where Judge Berman will never have to pay for another

But the controversy isn`t over for Brady or for the NFL. Dave Zirin
is fired up. And he`ll be here next.


HAYES: Joining me now, Dave Zirin, he`s sports editor at magazine The
Nation, also host of Edusports on Sirius/XM.

All right, Dave, how should I feel about this? I`m conflicted. I`m
cross pressured.


HAYES: I`m a staunch labor guy. I like collective bargaining
agreements. I like an employee taking his employer to court and winning.
On the other hand, it`s Tom Brady. And I`m not part of Pats nation. so,
guide me about how to feel.


Well, let me explain like this. The highlight of my day was amidst
all of the social media celebration in Patriots Nation was seeing all of
them visibly
recoil off of Twitter when they realized that Donald Trump was on their
side and was also supporting Tom Brady.

HAYES: Well, that`s also part of it. I mean, what am I supposed to
do with that.

ZIRIN: I know, but that`s part of it is that we have to understand
that it`s -- with the workers always, with Tom Brady sometimes is a
generally good philosophy going forward. But I`ll tell you something, one
thing about Donald Trump, say what you will about him, he doesn`t like
being associated with losers.

And one thing that Roger Goodell is right now, and all of the bosses
who have decided to put their trust in Roger Goodell in the National
Football League, this
is a losing horse and a losing proposition. This is the fifth straight
court case that the owners lost as Roger Goodell led them to court.

And yet this case is different from the others. The others were the
New Orleans Saints Bouncygate, Greg Hardy, Adrian Peterson, Ray Rice, those
other four at least Roger Goodell could say, I`m on the side of Rice, on
the side of cleaning up this league at factuous and as dimwitted as it was
it was at least a line he could sell to owners, to the public and to their
corporate partners.

You can`t sell that in this case. All you can sell is I make George
W. Bush look like Disraeli. That`s the only thing that Roger Goodell has
going for him right now.

HAYES: Well, I have not -- it has been hard to understand the logic
of this entire thing from the beginning, right. I mean, the conspiracy
theorists at the beginning of this said, look, Kraft is buddies with -- the
Patriots owner Robert Kraft is buddies with Roger Goodell, and one of his
closest friends.

Tom Brady is, if you were to pick one person who is the face of the
NFL it`s
got to be Tom Brady, right? I mean, the guy is a superstar, model
handsome, married to a model, five-time Super Bowl winner. I mean, this
guy is everything.

Four, five times? How many do they have now?

ZIRIN: Yeah.

And also let`s not forget white as the driven snow in a majority black
league that they are selling to a majority white audience.

The thing about Tom Brady to me is that he`s like Dorian Gray.
Somewhere there is a picture of just a decaying soul yet Tom Brady just
gets more and more handsome every today.

HAYES: Well, that`s the thing like why did they pick this fight?
That`s what makes no sense about this whole thing, why did they pick this

ZIRIN: It makes sense because if you understand it less as a battle
between labor and the NFL ownership and more as a battle in between owners.
The New England Patriots a decade ago were one of the lowest valued
franchises in the National Football League. Today, they are second only to
the Dallas Cowboys. And there are a lot of NFL owners who feel Robert
Kraft and the Patriots have gotten rich by skirting the rules whether it
was Spygate, whether it`s fudging injury reports, whether it`s Bill
Belichick and all the various machinations other
owners feel he does.

So, there are a lot of owners who feel like because of Kraft`s cozy
relationship with Goodell that Robert Kraft has gotten rich on their time.

And so there were a lot of owners who looked at Roger Goodell and
said, hey, dude, you make $40 million a year, because of us not Bob Kraft.
We want to see you go after him for this deflating of the football thing.
They didn`t care what it was, they wanted to take a shot and puncture the
Patriots` balloon.

HAYES: But here is part of it, too, like it is one of these things --
you know, there is this sort of reactionary phrase where they talk about a
court system he got off on a technicality, right. And it`s sort of meant
to be like obviously the guy is guilty, but like our no good constitution
got in the way.

And I have to say I feel a little bit that way about this. Like it
really does seem like they were up to no good. And they didn`t essentially
have the evidence procedurally to nail them for it. And I respect that
because I respect
process and labor law and collective bargaining agreements, but I`m left
feeling they probably were doing this.

ZIRIN: Well, but part of the problem, though, is there is a huge gap
between what we originally thought about this and what now we actually know
is the truth.

I remember coming on your show, first time we talked about this, and I
said give the Superbowl to the Seahawks. I want a parade in Seattle with
Richard Sherman holding up the trophy. They should have to vacate it.

And one of the reasons why I said that was a widely spread report by
ESPN that 10 of the 11 footballs were deflated. And that was a shocking
number. It`s like, whoa, that looks like a systemic effort to game the

And yet now we know that it was one or two footballs and that the
variance might actually can be explained by barometric pressure.

Basically Roger Goodell totally overshot on this thinking his good
buddy Bob Kraft and Tom Brady would go along for the ride and just play
ball precisely because Brady is the face of the league and all the rest of
it and seemed to have a lot to lose by fighting back.

But I will say this for Tom Brady, and I know this from talking to a
lot of people in the NFL Players Association today, is that he did not go
down as the person who made it labor precedent in the NFL to just hand over
your personal cell phone. He didn`t want to be that guy.

And there`s something to say for that.

HAYES: he fought the law and the law didn`t win.

ZIRIN: That`s true.

HAYES: Or the law did win in his favor. Dave Zirin, thanks so much.

ZIRIN: Thank you, sir.

HAYES: Final thought for the Patriots fans celebrating, remember this
moment the next time you hear about how those evil Teachers` Unions won`t
let us fire the bad teachers. It`s the same thing. The same process that
ensures people get a fair hearing that kept Tom Brady and keeps those

That is All In for this evening. Don`t miss tomorrow night where I
will be joined by Donald Trump`s former top adviser Roger Stone and I`ll
also be joined by the protester who got knocked in the head during a
scuffle with the Trump security guard outside Trump`s press conference
today. It`s going to be a great show. That`s tomorrow night.

Right now it`s time for the Rachel Maddow Show.


<Copy: Content and programming copyright 2015 NBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Copyright 2015 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by
United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed,
transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written
permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark,
copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>

Sponsored links

Resource guide