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'Up with Steve Kornacki' for Sunday, August 30th, 2015

Read the transcript to the Sunday show

Date: August 30, 2015
Guest: Jim Pate, Howard Dean, Sabrina Siddiqui, Joan Walsh, Steve Moore,
Jamie Novogrod, Adolfo Franco, Claire McCaskill, Rovin Givhan

JONATHAN CAPEHART, MSNBC ANCHOR: Looking to the future in New Orleans.
Good morning. Thanks for getting up with us this Sunday morning. I`m
Jonathan Capehart. Steve Kornacki has the morning off. There are new
details at this hour about Friday night`s shooting death of a sheriff`s
deputy in Houston. More on that in a moment.

Plus, the Gulf Coast is marking the tenth anniversary of Hurricane Katrina
and its aftermath this weekend.

This morning, we`ll be looking ahead to the region`s future.

Also, the approaching end of summer means it will soon be decision time on
Capitol Hill for President Obama`s nuclear deal with Iran. We`ll be
talking to one of the Senate`s most outspoken members about her decision on
the deal.

And Joe Biden makes a surprise appearance. What about his decision on the
run for the White House?

But we begin this morning in Houston, Texas with the investigation into the
shooting death of sheriff`s deputy Darren Goforth. A suspect has been
named. He`s Shannon J. Miles, and he was taken into police custody
yesterday on capital murder charges. Police say that Miles has a criminal
history. Hundreds gathered last night for a candlelight vigil and the
sheriff of Harris County says he has never seen another crime like it.


SHERIFF RON HICKMAN, HARRIS COUNTY, TX: I have been in law enforcement 45
years and I don`t recall another incident this called bloody and cowardly.


CAPEHART: Deputy Goforth leaves behind a wife and two children. We`ll
have a live report from Houston in just a little bit.

We travel now to the Gulf Coast where this weekend, residents are
remembering a storm and a decade of struggle. It was ten years ago
yesterday that Hurricane Katrina made landfall, but ten years ago today the
levies broke.


CAPEHART: Orleans, Louisiana. It was spared of direct hit from Katrina,
but it did not get away easy. Two levies have been breached there, sending
water flowing to the rooftops at some places, and once side of the Hyatt
hotel on the edge of the French Quarter looks like a bomb has blown it


CAPEHART: President Clinton, who joined forces with President George H.W.
Bush to raise $130 million for the region, closed last night`s ceremony in
New Orleans.


BILL CLINTON: You`ve got a lot of to celebrate tonight. But the
celebration must be leavened by rededication. The people who died left
behind memories and loved ones and legacies that deserve to be fully
redeemed by erasing the lines that divide us.


CAPEHART: MSNBC`s Trymaine Lee joins us live from New Orleans.

TRYMAINE LEE, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Jonathan. Here we are,
ten years after the day after, when New Orleans was kind of born anew in
kind of pain and destruction. This entire week has been kind of a balance
of commemorating those whose lives were lost, but also celebrating a sense
of renewal, a renewal that some people say, it`s still lagging too far
behind. And so, yesterday when after President Clinton kind of closed out
the ceremony, there was this sense that it`s time to move on now.

Because remember, this is the tenth anniversary. There won`t be a 15th
anniversary or commemoration, there won`t be a 20th anniversary
commemoration. This was it. And for so many people, especially those who
survived that terrible summer ten years ago, there`s a point of needing to
move on and wanting to move on. At the same time when you go across this
city and you see communities that are still packed with the deep scars left
by Katrina, you know, there`s still a lot to be done here.

Again, this community has come together. There`s been over $1 billion in
federal funding pumped into the city. There are new businesses and
restaurants, a whole new generation of residents. But again, for those who
survived those terrible, terrible days, there`s still so much more to be
done. And now, as we kind of wrap up the anniversary commemoration this
weekend, as they say it`s all over but the shouting. But again, this is a
brand new day and a start of a whole new era for New Orleans.

CAPEHART: Trymaine Lee, thank you very much.

An estimated 1800 lives were lost to Katrina and its aftermath, and a
million people were displaced. 80 percent of the great city of New Orleans
was flooded. More than $150 billion in damage to the region. That`s
billion with a "B."

But the ten years since the storm have brought change and hope for a bright
future. Musicians` Village is a New Orleans community that allows low-
income musicians to live in homes that they themselves own. It`s a place
dreamed up by two of the city`s most famous musicians, Harry Connick Jr.
and Branford Marsalis. And it was built in partnership with Habitat for
Humanity. Jim Pate is the executive director of New Orleans Habitat for
Humanity, the largest home builder in Louisiana for many years. He joins
us now from -- he`s going to join us from Jackson Square - in just a
moment. But as we`ve been talking about for -- let`s just go to Jim. I`m
not going to bam. Jim Pate, thanks very much. Thanks very much for being
with us this morning.


CAPEHART: So, from your perspective, how is the recovery going? And
what`s been accomplished and what`s still left to be done?

PATE: Well, the recovery has gone incredibly well. A lot of it is the
citizens and all of the thousands of volunteers who have come into town
from all over the world. Working all together, we`ve rebuilt so much of
the city. Actually, not simply rebuilt it. We`ve built a better New
Orleans. So, we`ve got an incredibly great and bright future. We have a
ton of young entrepreneurs who have come here. Many came down to volunteer
and help us recover and decided to stay or to come back and start a
business here. So, we`re one of the entrepreneurial hot spots in the
country. We just think that we`ve got a tremendous future going forward.

CAPEHART: Jim, you mentioned the incredibly great and bright future of New
Orleans. But within a year of Katrina, 70 percent of white residents said
they were able to get back into their homes. That figure was only 42
percent for black residents. So, my question to you is what more should
the city be doing to make the city accessible to everyone?

PATE: Well, there is a tremendous financial inequity in the way that the
federal funding called - funds were distributed. Because they were
distributed based on pre-Katrina appraised value, assessed value of the
properties. Obviously, in some of the poorer neighborhoods the property
values were less. So, a 2,000 square foot home in Lakeview, a wealthy
community, might have appraised for $200,000. In the Lower Ninth Ward, it
might have appraised for $80,000. Net effective -- that is, the person in
the Lower Ninth didn`t get enough money to rebuild their house. The person
in Lakeview did. So, you had those dynamics, obviously, insurance capacity
to get loans and so forth.

Now, the office of community development, Louisiana housing corporation, a
lot of nonprofits like us, Habitat for Humanity, are coming in to address
that difference. So there`s new funding flowing in, targeted to help the
people who want to come back to New Orleans get back. And we`re going to
be doing a lot of that work in the next few years.

CAPEHART: You know, Jim, New Orleans murder rate is eight times the
national average. We talked to Mayor Landrieu about this yesterday. How
is crime affecting your work and the city?

PATE: Well, crime doesn`t affect us so much. It`s the occasional theft,
something like that. But generally since we work in the neighborhoods,
we`re working with people`s aunts and sisters and brothers. So, the bad
boys tend to leave us alone. Plus we usually have 30, 40, 50 volunteers at
a job site and nobody wants to mess with them. What it does mean is that
we have to pay attention to the security of where we`re working, where
we`re leaving tools, leaving vehicles, particularly when we first start
investigating in a neighborhood. We want to make sure that we are buying
lots that are going to be safe for our partner families who are buying the
homes when we finish them and are going to be living there.

CAPEHART: Jim, let me play a clip from an NBC digital piece on
Musicians Village, this is the city`s first large-scale building project
since Katrina, which your organization helped build. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is heaven right here on earth after being
homeless, to be a homeowner and to be a homeowner here in the Musicians`
Village, too, is like a double honor. Because it`s validation that the
music isn`t poor. And it does matter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, 72 homes are on the streets were a decade ago
there was only mud.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Being here is like giving me another chance to start a
whole new life.


CAPEHART: Jim, tell us about the community that`s grown up out of
Musicians` Village?

PATE: Well, Musicians` Village, of course, was the vision of Harry Connick
Jr., Branford Marsalis. The goal was to make sure we didn`t lose our rich
musical heritage. So, we built 72 single family homes, ten elder-friendly
duplexes, Ellis Marsalis Center for Music, which is a teaching academy, a
performance hall, recording studio. It`s a whole area focused - the whole
building focused around music. We got a little follower park in there.
And the families sort of come in, what we have seen is that not only were
they working musicians to get back and get our clubs going, but this
incredible fusion of the community. Somebody loses their gig, they go next
door, knock on the neighbor`s door and say, hey, man, could I sit in with
your group for a few days until I get something else to do? It`s a very
tight-knit community. But one of the neat things is that it ranges from
the old elder statesman, from Al "Carnival Time," Johnson, Bob Fridge,
little Freddie King, Smoky Johnson, all of those people that have been
around for decades in the New Orleans music scene literally side by side
with Calvin Johnson, Michael Harris, who you just heard in that clip,
Shamarr Allen, all of those people. And they`re different musical styles.
For example, one of the cellists from the Louisiana Philharmonic lives in
one of the habitat homes. Well, she`s now playing with several different R
& B and jazz bands as a cellist. And that was not something she probably
would play in. But she really enjoys doing it. And it is expanding her
horizons. So, we`re seeing people having more security. They`re living in
a home that they`re buying. Rents aren`t going up. Their landlord`s not
going to throw them out. They have -- that gives them the confidence to
stay there. They have a place where they can close the door and rehearse
or they can walk out on the front porch and start playing music and the
neighbors will come around and join in.

CAPEHART: That`s great, Jim. Jim Pate, of Habitat for Humanity. Thank

PATE: My pleasure.

CAPEHART: Still ahead, will Donald Trump supporters actually make it to
the ballot box?

But first, Joe Biden makes a surprise appearance. Are there any more
surprises up his sleeve? That`s next, stay with us.


CAPEHART: Vice President Joe Biden made a surprise appearance yesterday at
the Sussex County Democrats jamboree. Build as one of Delaware`s most
important political events. He spoke for ten minutes on top of the picnic
table about his son Beau, and his deep Delaware routes. He dismissed the
question about his plans for 2016, but earlier this week, Biden did address
the will he or won`t he question? Here is the vice president, speaking
during what was supposed to be a private call for DNC members, the audio of
which was obtained by CNN.


JOE BIDEN: I`ve given this a lot of thought and dealing internally in this
family about how we do this. If I were to announce to run I have to be
able to commit to all of you that I would be able to give it my whole heart
and my whole soul and right now both are pretty well banged up.


CAPEHART: It`s clear that Biden is weighing this decision with care as he
and his family continue to mourn the loss of Beau, who died only three
months ago. Still, the vice president didn`t say no. At least not yet. A
majority of early state Democratic insiders telling Politico they think
that "no" is coming, but voters continue to respond favorably to the idea
of a Biden candidacy. A new Quinnipiac poll has him eight points ahead of
Trump in a general election matchup. In the same poll, he beats Jeb Bush
by six and he`s ahead of Marco Rubio by three points. Hillary Clinton said
this week that Biden should have the space and opportunity to make his
final decision, but privately her campaign is telling supporters that she
already has one-fifth of the delegates she`ll need to secure the

Let`s bring in this morning`s panel. Sabrina Siddiqui, the political
reporter at "The Guardian," MSNBC political analyst Joan Walsh, editor-at-
large of Salon, Steve Moore, chief economist at the Heritage Foundation and
at the table as well, former chair of the DNC, former Vermont governor,
former presidential candidate himself --

HOWARD DEAN: Former, former, former ...

CAPEHART: But current MSNBC contributor ...

DEAN: Yes.

CAPEHART: Howard Dean. Thank you all for being here this morning.
Howard, of course, I`m going to start with you. Will concerns about
Hillary Clinton`s trustworthiness tempt her supporters to look for an

DEAN: I don`t think so. This is the thing about Hillary that is so
incredible. She has incredibly fierce base and support. And that`s not
going to go away no matter what. So, I think she`s in great shape. The
other problem is for all of people`s liking for Joe Biden, he is an
incredibly likable person. He`s done a great job as vice president. It`s
tough to find the space that is, you know, the plan to get him to the top.

CAPEHART: Well, to your point, is it too late for Joe Biden to get into
this race? This is what one state party chair who spoke on the condition
of anonymity out of deference to Biden. This is what we told to
"Washington Post." Had we had this conversation nine months ago, it would
be different. Everything in politics is about timing. But tragically,
timing is not really on his side."

SABRINA SIDDIQUI, THE GUARDIAN: Yes. I think that it is pretty much too
late, according to a lot of people, unless there is some dramatic change in
Clinton`s candidacy. But you have to look at two main strategic hurdles.
One is the fund-raising. A lot of the big donors have committed themselves
to Hillary Clinton. Bernie Sanders has gained a lot of support at the
grassroots level. And then there`s also just the campaign infrastructure.
Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, they`ve been entrenched in some of
these early voting states for months now. You know, it`s unclear if Joe
Biden could jump in as late as September or October and try to gain some of
that momentum and pull it away from them.

CAPEHART: Joan, do you agree?

JOAN WALSH: Yes, with the people on the ground that you would need in Iowa
and New Hampshire it would be very tough. Maybe he would skip that. But I
say the other thing is very tough. I mean I say this as someone who loves
Joe Biden. He doesn`t have a path to victory that isn`t somewhat to
Hillary Clinton`s right. I mean he was more conservative on certain
things. He opposes - he supports the Hyde amendment - he, you know, has a
long record on bankruptcy law that is not going to be very appealing to the
Elizabeth Warren sector of the party. And so, you know, he talks about -
or he doesn`t talk about, but his supporters talk about his path would be
white working class voters, Jews and gay and lesbian folk. Well, you know,
that`s great. But to get white working class voters, I just think it`s
very tough for somebody who has had the president`s back and been such a
great memorialized vice president to go out and say I`m going to be the guy
for the white working class.

conversation three months ago, we would have said this is Bush versus
Clinton. I mean that`s what people have been saying for two or three
years. And now, both of those candidates are in big, big trouble. I
totally disagree that it`s too late in either party. Look, you could get
in a - if you catch fire, you can - as Donald Trump has shown, you can get
- I disagree that it`s too late for Joe Biden to get in.

Now, look, as a Republican, I love the idea as Joe Biden as the Democratic
candidate. Joe Biden has one really, really big problem. Every single
poll shows one thing. What the American people do not want more than
anything else is a third Barack Obama term. And how does Joe Biden run
away from Barack Obama? That`s a big problem.

DEAN: I disagree with that.

MOORE: But the polls show it. You know, 20 percent say they would want a
third Obama term and 60 percent say ...

DEAN: They say that now. But I actually think that would be a stronger
point. I think Obama is going to have some -- he has already had some big
wins in his last two years. He is going to have a couple of other really
big wins in the last two years. So, from a Democratic Party perspective,
that, I don`t think, is a handicap for Joe Biden.

MOORE: I`m talking about general election. Not -- yeah, I think -- look,
the other thing, Howard, there`s a big divide right now. What this is
showing, is the splinter between the Clinton camp and the Obama camp.

WALSH: I don`t think that`s true at all.

MOORE: That`s what all the reports re ...

WALSH: There are so many, so many former Obama people ...

CAPEHART: On the Hillary campaign.

WALSH: John Podesta, Jim Palmieri, I mean, there`s so much integration
between those two staffs. There are still a few people who are not there
but, you know -

SIDDIQUI: I think there`s an extent to which Hillary Clinton will be
viewed as a third Obama term. Republicans are going to make a lot of their
messaging around the fact that she was his former secretary of state. And
this is the change election, and, you know, Democrats office - so, I don`t
think that`s necessarily a unique handicap to Joe Biden.

WALSH: No, she has that handicap and that advantage, in my view.

MOORE: Biden has it bigger time.

CAPEHART: One more quick question to you, Governor Dean. Are Democrats
just too easy to freak out?


CAPEHART: And at a slightest hint of trouble, they are looking for the
next best thing?

DEAN: You know, I`ve always said this to Democrats, especially when I was
running the party. We are just not tough enough ...


DEAN: We are just not tough.

MOORE: I say that about Republicans. Republicans are pretty darn tough


DEAN: I just, you know, I think we`ve got to be a hell of a lot tougher
than we are. Look, politics is a substitute for war. These guys get it.
We haven`t gotten that. We think it`s an intellectual exercise in
discussion of issues. It`s not. It`s for winning.

CAPEHART: That`s why we`re picking Donald Trump, right?


CAPEHART: That`s right where - Governor Dean is staying with us. Up
ahead, Chris Christie tries to out-Trump Donald Trump with a bold new
immigration plan. You are not going to believe this. We`ll tell you about
that. And as for Trump himself, can his supporters be counted on to
actually vote? That`s next. Stay with us.



DONALD TRUMP: And the poll just came out in Alabama, leading big in
Alabama, leading big in Iowa, leading tremendously big in New Hampshire.
Great people. Leading really big in New Hampshire. Leading big in
Florida. How about Florida? I have a governor. We have a low-energy
governor and we have a senator. And we`re leading big in Florida. How do
you do that?


CAPEHART: Donald Trump`s seven-week ride atop the Republican polls
continued yesterday in Tennessee. But "The New York Times" cautions that
Trump should not take his lead for granted with the headline "There`s
evidence that Trump`s polling support is overstated." Analyst Nate Cohen
has taken a look at some of the people who say they would vote for Donald
Trump and he has concluded that they haven`t necessarily voted in primaries
in the past. That doesn`t mean they won`t be making it to a polling place
for Trump. But you can`t necessarily count on them to show up.

And the panel is back here. And gosh, Steve, after our last discussion
about Donald Trump and how he is the solution to winning for the Republican
Party I have to start with you. There`s a new poll, the one out last night
from Bloomberg Politics and "The Des Moines Register". And in it, Trump
once again is leading, but this was a number that stuck out to me. 69
percent of those who said they were going to attend the Iowa caucuses for
the first time said they were going to vote for Donald Trump. And this
leads the rest of the field. Is that good news or bad news for Trump? And
are those voters actually going to stick around? I mean the caucuses, it`s
not like you show up in a voting booth, click a button and then you leave.
You`ve got to sit in somebody`s living room for hours.

MOORE: Right. Well, it`s unknowable, that question. We just don`t know
right now. It is true ...

CAPEHART: Come one. What does your gut say?

MOORE: Look, I think that a lot of those people may show up. I mean it
was funny. The night before the big debate the Republicans had a few weeks
ago, my 22-year-old son, who, Howard, has never had any interest in
politics what so -- he doesn`t get what I do, he doesn`t get what you do.
You know, he tweets me go D Trump. And that - now, would he go out and
vote? I don`t know. But it represents an opportunity for Republicans,
though. Because if these people who have never voted before, never been
politically active start to vote and become activated by what Donald Trump
is saying, that could dramatically expand the Republican base of voters
come November, 2016.

WALSH: It raises a lot of questions in comparisons with 2008 and the
Clinton/Obama approach to Iowa. Because I remember being in Iowa and
having the Clinton people saying oh, you know, yeah, Obama is doing really
well in the polls, but his numbers are coming from those never-before-
caucused people and they don`t caucus. And our numbers come from the
people who always caucus. But he did. He got them out. He expanded that
first-time voter base in Iowa in an amazing way. But it took incredible

DEAN: This is what I`ve been saying for a while. We`re now at stage one,
which is the August - you know, all kinds of stuff goes on. Stage two
comes from September to Iowa, to see who really makes it to the starting
line. And they won`t - certainly won`t be 17 of them.


DEAN: Right. And stage three is, this is what Trump - this is what is
unknown about Trump. We know now Trump is the real deal and he`s very good
on stage. I mean whatever you think of his -- he is very good on the
stump. What we don`t know is what kind of an organization he has.

MOORE: That doesn`t matter.

DEAN: I had the money.

MOORE: We don`t know that.

DEAN: So, no, the issue is, can he get those people to the polls? Obama
did it. Obama doubled the attendance of the caucus between my year and his
year, four years later. It was unheard of, what he did. Trump has got to
get these people to the polls and he has to have a hell of a lot of people
working on the ground in Iowa. And I don`t know that he has got that yet.

CAPEHART: So if he wins Iowa, if Donald Trump wins Iowa, will that create
a domino effect? Like what we saw when then Senator Obama won Iowa,
overnight you saw people switch. My own mother switched.

WALSH: Right.

CAPEHART: And so is that possible?

SIDDIQUI: It depends. I mean these early voting states are very different
in terms of what the issues are, that voters - what the kind of makeup and
demographics are for these particular voters. And a lot of these
candidates have staked out already where they`re really looking at a
particular state as their stronghold. So, Jeb Bush, John Kasich, they are
focusing on New Hampshire. Marco Rubio has kind of built a lot of
infrastructure in South Carolina. Scott Walker was really eyeing Iowa. I
think, you know, it depends on which candidate we`re talking about, and
that`s where you kind of see the impact that Donald Trump is having on
people like Scott Walker, on people like Rand Paul, who are now really
struggling to figure out how they can break through, especially when they
were looking at Iowa as a major potential state to pick up early on.

MOORE: Look at the polling - and just look at the numbers of Michigan and
Arizona, just two representative states. You know who the top three in
those two states - three states are? Donald Trump, Ben Carson, Carly


MOORE: What do those three - what do they have in common? They are all
non-outsiders. On the Republican right, there is a revolt against the
Republican establishment and against policy.

DEAN: I would argue that was good for the establishment. Because it`s the
top three - it`s the three non-establishment people, that`s going to dilute
that vote and even make it easier for Jeb Bush.

WALSH: What I keep looking at is what has to happen for Jeb Bush to really
bulk up on support, right?

MOORE: Energize him.


MOORE: Jolt him.


WALSH: Excuse me, let`s just do it numerically first, not psychologically.
But seriously. It`s like he`s going to take the Rubio numbers. Well,
that`s seven percent or eight percent. He`s going to take Kasich. That`s
about - there`s not like a mass. It`s the establishment voters who have
so little support, at least so far, that`s blowing me away when you`ve got
the non-establishment people. They are up in the - the three of them
together are ...

CAPEHART: 45 percent. But how is that sustainable?


CAPEHART: Do you think that the Republican Party base is really going to
entrust the nomination to three people that never ...


DEAN: Carson and Fiorina have, as far as I can tell, zero organization

CAPEHART: Right. Right.

DEAN: So, they`re going to get blown out in Iowa. You cannot do Iowa
without a big, significant, expensive organization.

WALSH: Right. And some of this is name recognition when it comes to
Donald Trump and Jeb Bush. We really as the candidate goes out and
campaign more aggressively, these number will change.

MOORE: Just one other quickly.

CAPEHART: I`m sorry, Steve. We`re going to have to let that be the last
word because the governor has to go and we have got to go. Howard Dean,
former presidential candidate, former DNC chair.

DEAN: Former, former, former.


CAPEHART: But current colleague. Thank you very much for your time this

Still ahead, the United States Senator who`s trying to redefine what it
means to be lady-like and a leader. Senator Claire McCaskill joins me one-
on-one ahead.

But first, an update from Houston on the investigation into the shooting
death of a sheriff`s deputy as the community mourns. That`s next. Stay
with us.


CAPEHART: We want to get an update now on this morning`s developing news
out of Houston. A suspect has been named in the shooting death of
Sheriff`s Deputy Darren Goforth. He`s Shannon Jay Miles, and he was taken
into police custody yesterday on capital murder charges. Police say that
Miles has a criminal history. Hundreds gathered last night for a
candlelight vigil. Deputy Goforth leaves behind a wife and two children.
For the latest from Houston, let`s go to MSNBC`s Jamie Novogrod. Jamie?

JAMIE NOVOGROD, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Jonathan, good morning. The suspect
in the case - waking up behind bars. Police have identified him, as you
say, as 30-year-old Shannon Miles. They say he`s facing capital murder
charges. There`s been an outpouring of grief here. Hundreds of people
showed up at this gas station last night. And the fallen deputy`s wife
released a statement, calling him her best friend. Police say there`s no
apparent motive in the shooting and that Miles did not know his target.
Harris County Sheriff`s Deputy Darren Goforth. They say that Miles snuck
up on Goforth as he was gassing up, continuing to fire at him even as he
crumpled to the ground.

In an emotional press conference yesterday, the sheriff pointed the heated
rhetoric that`s grown up in the wake of police shootings, several police
shootings of unarmed black men and said that the rhetoric has helped to
develop an atmosphere that`s put police at risk. But again they said that
there`s no motive in the shooting. Miles had taken some classes locally
here and had a police record, including a charge of trespassing and
disorderly conduct with a gun. Jonathan?

CAPEHART: MSNBC`s Jamie Novogrod. Thanks very much.

Let`s travel now to Roanoke, Virginia, and the aftermath of this week`s on-
air shooting of a television news crew. The reporter and photographer team
for CBS affiliate WDBJ were killed by a former colleague while reporting
live on air Wednesday morning. The families of Alison Parker and Adam Ward
now planning services. MSNBC`s Adam Reiss has the latest details. Adam?

ADAM REISS, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Jonathan, good morning. They`re
beginning to say their final good-byes here today with a series of events.
Today, at 3:00, there will be a vigil here from Andy Parker, that`s Alison
Parker`s father, Jeff Marks also. The station manager will speak. Then
tomorrow, a celebration of life. Take a look at this memorial, growing
memorial. You`re seeing flowers, balloons, people coming by. You see a
couple of women over there. Just coming to share their grief. They want
to be a part of it all. Jonathan?

CAPEHART: MSNBC`s Adam Reiss, thank you very much.

Still ahead, the khakis and polo shirts that became an international
talking point. But first, the lasting battle within the Republican Party
over marriage equality, that`s next. Stay with us.



PAT BUCHANAN: The agenda that Clinton and Clinton would impose on America,
abortion on demand, a litmus test for the Supreme Court, homosexual rights,
discrimination against religious schools, women in combat units. That`s
change all right, but that`s not the kind of change America needs. It`s
not the kind of change America wants and it`s not the kind of change we can
abide in a nation we still call God`s country.


CAPEHART: That right there is the moment many believe the Republican Party
started to lose the 1992 race for president. People who believe that Pat
Buchanan`s declaration of a culture war at the Republican National
Convention doomed George H.W. Bush`s chances for re-election. What`s
amazing when you listen to that speech now is how much of it still seems
relevant today. Another Bush is trying to win the White House, and
reproductive rights, religious freedom and women in combat have all
recently been in the headlines.

And then, of course, there is same-sex marriage. It`s been two months
since the Supreme Court ruled that the Constitution guarantees a right to
marriage for everyone. And this week we learn that in a new book of the e-
mails he received and wrote as Florida governor, Jeb Bush told a
constituent who`d asked to discuss marriage equality that, quote, I don`t
believe that your relationship should be afforded the same status in the
law as a man and a woman agreeing to marriage, he wrote. More recently in
response to the Supreme Court`s landmark decision, Jeb Bush released the
statement, in which he said, quote, "Guided by my faith, I believe in
traditional marriage. I believe the Supreme Court should have allowed the
states to make this decision. I also believe that we should love our
neighbor and respect others, including those making lifetime commitments."
It`s the second part of that statement that has folks wondering if Jeb
Bush`s views on same-sex marriage have actually evolved. With the former
governor of Florida walking a tightrope now in order to cater to the
conservative primary base, but still leaving himself enough wiggle room to
pivot to the middle during the general election.

So I throw this out to the table. Can he pivot? Can Jeb Bush pivot to the
middle on this particular issue?

SIDDIQUI: Well, I think that the important thing for the Republican
nominee will be to strike the right balance and to strike a softer tone.
We`re not going to see -- it`s very unlikely that we`re going to see the
Republican nominee actually endorse same-sex marriage. In this election
having said that, what you`re seeing from Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio with
respect to the court ruling is, we disagree but we have to respect it. And
it`s time to move on. They both said they don`t support a constitutional
amendment to redefine same sex marriage between - as between a man and a
woman like Scott Walker said. So, you know, they`re trying to not fall
into what we call losing the general to win the primary.

MOORE: And Steve, your boss should say, you know, people say Republican`s
position has evolved on gay marriage. Not just Republican`s. I mean
Barack Obama`s position, Bill Clinton`s position, Hillary Clinton`s, if you
went back ten years ago, they would have said many of the same things that
were in that statement that Jeb Bush said.

Look, I think to some extent, I`m anti-gay marriage, but I will say this.
That Supreme Court decision was in some ways a gift to the Republicans.
Because quite frankly, it`s taken the issue off the table. It`s no longer
an issue.

WALSH: Well, I`m not sure that Ted Cruz --

MOORE: Just one last - I think where this debate heads now, is where it is
going to be a debate is about religious freedom and that`s where
Republicans want to take this. What rights do churches and people of faith
have with respect to the gay marriage issue.

WALSH: Well, and, you know, Jeb Bush was very strong, came out in favor of
Indiana`s religious freedom law and then even Governor Pence had admitted
that it had to be changed when the corporate community went nuts over it.


WALSH: So, he is on the record supporting something even stronger than
what Pence had wanted. So I think it`s going to be varied. Certainly, the
LGBT community is not going to fall for it. The question is, are you
fighting for the people who care somewhat, don`t want to be mean, don`t
want to hear mean-spirited rhetoric? Or you`re certainly not fighting for
that community.

CAPEHART: Does this issue now still resonate? I mean as you said, the
Supreme Court has ruled. You think it`s a gift to the Republican Party.

WALSH: Somewhat.

CAPEHART: Because it takes the issue off the table. But does it really?

SIDDIQUI: It does in some ways. Because previously, you know, the kind of
token response for some of these candidates was that, you know, we support
traditional marriage. This issue should be left up to the states. And now
we don`t have to contend with that. But, you know, I think what they`re
more concerned about is alienating certain demographics who care deeply
about these young voters, in particularly, that`s a constituency that they
have to be concerned with. And it might not be the top issue, of course,
in the election - social issues in general don`t tend to be what voters go
to the pool strictly on. But for Republicans who have dealt with image
perceptions among certain coalitions of voters, it`s that`s why I think
they`re being very cautious with how they navigate same-sex marriage and
LGBT rights.

CAPEHART: Well, do you agree with that, what Sabrina just said that social
issues probably won`t have that much of a - I mean we just saw Pat Buchanan
cost the presidency for George H.W. Bush in 1992. Do you think ...


MOORE: I think that that clip -- I think the cultural war, the cultural
divide between left and right is wider today than any time in 50 years. I
mean this - all sorts of social issues, I think they will play a big part.

WALSH: Except we`ve won. So, that`s basically over except a small group
of people fighting --

MOORE: Well, we have the Planned Parenthood scandal, and I think that will
be a huge issue coming up in the politics, defunding Planned Parenthood.

SADDIQUI: And I don`t mean to say it won`t matter. I mean to say, won`t
be the top issue or maybe among the top two or three issues.

WALSH: Also, you guys, when you have got somebody like Donald Trump who`s
been perceived as prochoice, pro marriage equality.


SIDDIQUI: He evolves every day.

WALSH: Winning Evangelicals. I mean it`s making it really hard - I mean
Ted Cruz is doing OK. But it`s making it really hard for Ted Cruz or Scott
Walker to demagogue these issues and to say to people in Iowa this is their
top issue. No, not right now it doesn`t seem to be.

MOORE: It`s the economy. You look at the polls, one, two, three, the
economy, the economy, the economy and it still will be in November 2016.

CAPEHART: You know, Steve, you said something earlier about, you know, Jeb
Bush`s position is what President Obama`s position was. But Hillary
Clinton`s position was. We`re going back five, sometimes ten years to try
to say, see, look, we`re not that different from the Democrats. But the
entire Democratic Party is fully into - pro-marriage equality. At what
point will the Republican Party catch up, not just with the Democratic
Party, but with the nation?

MOORE: Look, I mean, the truth is - if you went back ten years -- the
Republicans won the election in 2004, in large part, because of the gay
marriage issue, where voters voted - were against it. So there`s been a
huge shift. Who knows what`s going to happen with the future of this

WALSH: It`s not going to shift back. We do know that. It`s not going to
shift back.

MOORE: I don`t know that.

SIDDIQUI: This could be, I think, the last presidential election where a
candidate for president says I am opposed to same-sex marriage. I think a
lot of people see it that way. Because the tide has just turned so
dramatically over the last couple of years.

CAPEHART: And I don`t know if you heard that. Steve just said you`re
probably right.


CAPEHART: Still ahead, new polling out of Iowa that has one pollster
asking whether it`s 2008 all over again for Hillary Clinton. We`ll take a
closer look.

But first, when you absolutely, positively want to make the headlines
overnight, we`ll have Governor Chris Christie`s brash words on immigration
next. Stay with us.



CHRIS CHRISTIE: We let people come to this country with visas and the
minute they come in, we lose track of them. We can`t -- here is what I`m
going to do as president. I`m going to ask Fred Smith, the founder of
FedEx, come work for the government for three months ...


CHRISTIE: Just come for three months to immigration and customs
enforcement and show these people ....


CAPEHART: That was Chris Christie in New Hampshire yesterday. So, this is
kicking off this morning`s other news headlines. Chris Christie is -- OK.
We just heard what he had to say. What`s your knee-jerk reaction? I`m
sort of speechless.

SIDDIQUI: I`m sure that the answer to the Republican Party`s image
perception with Latino voters is still liking immigrants to packages. This
is probably - although, it`s not quite, of course, verbatim what he did.

WALSH: No, but it`s close. I mean I was worried that Donald Trump wanted
to put them on box cars, but Christie just wants to put them in boxes,
which I think is a little bit more humane.

CAPEHART: I mean, how -- how would they do this? What - in the passport,
in the ...

MOORE: I think there`s a broader point here, which is what Donald Trump
has tapped into - it`s really - tapped into, and by the way, I`m about as
pro-immigration person as can you find. I think immigrants are incredibly
important for the American economy and for our society. But there is a
rage out there among conservatives, independents and even - that this
illegal immigration problem has not been solved and that the politicians
are doing nothing about it. Now, I think those kinds of ideas that -- the
American people can`t understand. We said this 20 years, do something
about illegal immigration. Nothing is getting done. And that`s - that`s

WALSH: First of all, I don`t know any liberals who are enraged about it.
Second of all ....

MOORE: They`re not enraged about the people being here illegally?

WALSH: The bipartisan bill that was passed ...

CAPEHART: Exactly.

WALSH: ... would put billions into enforcement, would have added 3500
border patrol officers, which has doubled since 2004 already.

MOORE: That`s true. That`s true.

WALSH: Impose and verify.

SIDDIQUI: This is a problem the Republican Party`s own making.
Congressional leaders could have dealt with this.


SIDDIQUI: And they had an opportunity. And it`s not that the house ...

MOORE: Barack Obama does not want to get this done.

WALSH: What?

CAPEHART: Oh, Steve, come on.

MOORE: He has put up every possible obstacle to a bipartisan.


MOORE: The amnesty is not going to happen.

CAPEHART: Can you please explain to me how President Obama blocked a
Senate bill that passed with 67 votes went to the House? He convinced
Speaker Boehner ...


CAPEHART: convince Speaker Boehner to not move on the immigration?

MOORE: Because Barack Obama won`t move off of amnesty and amnesty is not
going to happen.

WALSH: It`s not amnesty. It`s a ten-year -- that bill has a ten-year
arduous process for legal status. It`s ten years.

MOORE: Yeah, but it gives them a path to citizenship - a path to
citizenship is not going to ....


WALSH: What Republicans ...


MOORE: It`s not a path to citizenship.

SIDDIQUI: What Republican leaders not could have done was taken up their
own legislation, which they did try to do for a hot second. They unveiled
their own principles, they had a revolt from the roughly 30 to 40 hard
right conservative - on this issue.

And then they - they didn`t want to take it up.

WALSH: Ran away. Didn`t want to do what he could have done with
Democratic votes.

CAPEHART: I`m going to have to call Speaker Boehner`s office and find out
about this conspiracy theory here, Steve. And you have another - our other

MOORE: He does not. That`s the whole other segment. The Democrats want
to use this as a political issue. They don`t want to get it done.

CAPEHART: We have to go - we have to go to another issue that is
infinitely less serious. This is from TMZ. "I still love WWE and I want
to be Trump`s running mate."


CAPEHART: Hulk Hogan wants to be Donald Trump`s running mate.

WALSH: Dream ticket.

CAPEHART: I mean it`s already entertainment watching Donald Trump run for
president and do these press conferences where you can`t look away because
it`s like 15, 20 minutes of like a car accident. But how much of this Hulk
Hogan saying he wants to be the running mate is adding to -- sort of
dumbing down --

MOORE: Jesse Ventura was the governor of Minnesota. This is a celebrity
culture. I mean look, this is getting ridiculous, absolutely. But we`re
living in a celebrity culture. I mean Arnold Schwarzenegger was the
governor of California. Jesse Ventura was the governor of Minnesota.

CAPEHART: Celebrity - for a lot of America.

WALSH: We are forgetting one thing, Donald Trump already told us who his
running mate is going to be and it`s Oprah, so ...


MOORE: That`s a tough ticket, by the way.

CAPEHART: OK. That`s another phone call I`m going to have to make.
Oprah, stand by for my call. I have to find out what this is all about.

Another full hour of news and politics straight ahead. Including the state
of the race in Iowa: those surprising results are next.


CAPEHART: New numbers out of Iowa. We`ll take a look at where things
stand. Plus the combative relationship between Donald Trump and the
journalists asking tough questions.

Also, how one of the most uplifting stories of the week turned into one of
the weirdest stories of the week.

And Senator Claire McCaskill joins us in a little bit to talk about --
well, just about everything. That`s coming up.

But we begin this hour with Bernie Sanders, closing in on Hillary Clinton
in Iowa. The Des Moines Register and Bloomberg Politics released a new
poll last night in both the Democratic and Republican races for president.
This Iowa poll in particular is noted in political circles for its uncanny
accuracy in getting the pulse of Iowa voters at any particular moment, and
the results for Hillary Clinton right now don`t appear to be good. In the
Democratic race for the Iowa caucus, Senator Bernie Sanders has pulled to
within seven points of Hillary Clinton, who falls to below 50 percent for
the first time this year.

Take a look at the big picture, and Hillary Clinton has lost a third of her
supporters since just May. The Iowa pollster behind the poll, Ann Selzer,
says that to her, quote, this feels like 2008 to her all over again.

For more, including the Republican results, let`s go to NBC`s Kristen
Welker, who has been following the Hillary Clinton campaign all over the
place in 2016. Good morning, Kristen.

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC: Good morning to you.

CAPEHART: Do these poll numbers indicate why we are seeing Hillary fall in

WELKER: I think you`re seeing a couple of things here, Jonathan. First,
you are seeing the fact that Bernie Sanders is tapping into that
progressive sentiment in the Democratic Party. A lot of progressives are
backing him. They like what he has to say. He`s also tapping into that
anti-establishment sentiment. We`re seeing him chip away at Secretary
Clinton`s lead in New Hampshire by the way as well. Not as surprising
there, because he`s from neighboring Vermont.

This poll does look at the e-mail issue. It finds that 61 percent of
likely Democratic caucus goers don`t think the e-mail issue is a big deal.
That`s significant. However, it is widely believed that the e-mail issue
is contributing to this overall erosion you`re seeing in Secretary
Clinton`s lead. A lot of Democratic strategists, Clinton supporters, say
she hasn`t been aggressive enough at dealing with the issue, that she
hasn`t been contrite enough, that she`s been making these jokes that have
fallen flat over the last couple of weeks.

We saw her shift her strategy this past week. She really was more contrite
on the campaign trail, said she probably should have used separate e-mail
accounts, a work account and then a private e-mail account for her private
e-mails. Democrats saying they`re glad she`s sort of shifting strategy.

Of course the big unknown in all of this is Vice President Biden. Is he
going to get into the race? He only gets 14 percent of the votes in this
poll. However, if he were to get into the race, those numbers undoubtedly
would go up, and you would probably see him take some support away from
Secretary Clinton and Senator Sanders. He is still mulling a decision. He
told Democrats earlier this week ahead of their big DNC summer meeting in
Minneapolis that he was still deeply struggling with the loss of his son,
Beau, who passed away in May. This is a really tough decision for him.
It`s expected we won`t get a final decision for at least another few weeks.
Back to you.

CAPEHART: Kristen, what about on the Republican side, what are we seeing
there in Iowa?

WELKER: Well, the headline, Jonathan, is that Donald Trump continues to
hold on to his strong lead. 23 percent of likely GOP caucusgoers say they
would choose him. At No. 2, though, Ben Carson, the neurosurgeon, at 18
percent. What do we make of this more broadly? The GOP electorate also
looking for the anti-establishment, outside Washington candidate. There
are big warning signs for the establishment favorite, Jeb Bush, in this
poll. Take a look at his numbers, you have 45 percent of likely GOP
caucusgoers who have a favorable view of Jeb Bush, compared to Donald Trump
who gets a whopping 61 percent. So some real warning signs for Jeb Bush.
You`ve seen him get more aggressive, trying to be a little more authentic
on the campaign trail, to try to shift some of those numbers and appeal to
some of the base. But the GOP race, the headline there, Donald Trump
continues to dominate. Jonathan?

CAPEHART: Stunning numbers there, Kristen. Thank you very much.

WELKER: Thank you.

CAPEHART: Want to talk about these numbers now with the panel, Salon`s
Joan Walsh is back, Steve Moore with the Heritage Foundation is back, and
Sabrina Siddiqui from the Guardian is back, too.

Okay. What do you make of these numbers, just in general?

SIDDIQUI: I think that the two numbers that if you`re Hillary Clinton, you
want to be looking closely at, is that one of the people who support Bernie
-- he draws 50 percent, Bernie Sanders, from Iowa Democrats under the age
of 45, compared to 27 percent for Hillary Clinton. That is a similar
problem that kind of mirrors what happened in 2008. The other thing I
would look at it is Bernie Sanders supporters almost uniformly say they
like him on the issues. So this is not about anti-Hillary sentiment. This
is the fact that voters, do not, at least, seem to be convinced in any
overwhelming way that she matches to where -- on the issues to where they
want her to be.

CAPEHART: There`s a number that Kristen pointed out that jumped out at me.
I think I wrote this down right, 61 percent of Democrats polled don`t care
about the e-mail issue.

WALSH: They say it`s not influencing them, but it has to be in some subtle
way leading to this perception that she`s either not trustworthy or that
she`s already damaged. And I think she did make some moves this week to
deal with it a little bit more forthrightly. I think you feel her
resentment that this keeps coming up. She did nothing illegal. Other
secretaries of state have done something similar, apart from the private
server. There`s nothing there. Trey Gowdy is leaking, leaking, leaking.
But I think she`s just figuring out that nevertheless, she still has to
deal with the question of the private server itself, seeming like something
very different, very privileged, very secretive.

MOORE: In the Democratic Party, the problem for her is that it gets to her
electability. Maybe only 61 percent of Democratic voters don`t care about
this issue, but 90 percent -- I`m making that number up -- but a huge
percentage of Republican voters are looking at it and saying this is a big
problem. And this is a big, big scandal. General Petraeus was indicted
for less than this. If she is indicted --


CAPEHART: You`re making a big stretch there, Steve.

MOORE: This put national security in danger.


CAPEHART: Steve, let me ask you about another number in the poll on the
Republican side. And this is what I find fascinating. Why is Ben Carson
second in the polls? I understand the anti-politician sentiment that`s out
there in the Republican Party -- also in the Democratic Party -- but in the
Republican Party. But why not Carly Fiorina, who was a Fortune 10 CEO?
Leave aside her tenure there. But she is somebody who has been in the
business world. She`s -- I mean, he was a neurosurgeon. Not to take
anything away from him. But why is he at 18 percent?

MOORE: I think what these polls reflect on both sides of the issue --
especially on the Republican side. There`s a rage out there amongst
voters. Voters are incredibly angry.

WALSH: She`s such a nice, mild-mannered guy.


MOORE: What Republican voters understand and know about Ben Carson, is he
stuck it to Obama. That`s why--


SIDDIQUI: He was the unsung winner of that Republican debate. He had a
very strong finish after sort of a quiet start. I think a lot of people,
his closing statement was seen -- the uptick in interest in Ben Carson
around his closing statement was significant.


CAPEHART: Donald Trump is over here. Ben Carson is over here, and they`re
No. 1 and No. 2.

Let`s turn now to one of the biggest political stories of the week, one
that has the potential to have a huge and lasting impact. Donald Trump`s
feud with Latino media. It erupted when Univision anchor Jorge Ramos tried
to ask Trump a question in Iowa Tuesday night, and instead he was escorted
out, but he was later brought back in after Donald Trump said he would take
his question.


JORGE RAMOS, UNIVISION: Here is the problem with your immigration plan.
It`s full of empty promises. You cannot deport 11 million undocumented
immigrants. You cannot deny citizenship to the children in this country.
You cannot --

TRUMP: Why do you say that?

RAMOS: (inaudible)

TRUMP: A lot of people think -- No, no, excuse me.

RAMOS: You`re not answering my question, Mr. Trump.

TRUMP: No, no, I am answering. If you come across for one day, one day,
and you have a baby, now the baby is going to be an American citizen.
Excuse me. There are great legal scholars, the top, that say that`s
absolutely wrong. It`s going to be tested.

RAMOS: So the question is, how are you going to build 1,900 mile wall?

TRUMP: Very easily. I`m a builder. That`s easy. I build buildings that
are 94 --


CAPEHART: And so it continued. The New York Times reporting, quote, "for
the Spanish language press, which has grown in size and influence in
politics, the tense exchange was a highly public flexing of muscle against
a candidate who many outlets no longer pretend to cover objectively. They
are offended by Mr. Trump`s words and tactics, and they`re showing it."


GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC: How do you respond to some of your critics,
like Sean Spicer, the chief strategist over at the RNC, who says you`re
more advocate than journalist?

RAMOS: What I would say is that as a journalist, you have to take a stand.
I think the best journalism happens when you take a stand. And when it
comes to racism, discrimination, corruption, public lies, dictatorships of
human rights, as journalists, we are not only required, but we are forced
to take a stand.


CAPEHART: Here to discuss this, Adolfo Franco, former adviser to Senator
John McCain during his presidential campaign joins our panel. Adolfo,
thank you for being here.


CAPEHART: Do you think Trump is hurting the Republican Party`s leadership
-- I`m sorry, Republican Party`s relationship with Latino voters?

FRANCO: Well, yes, unfortunately, he is. There`s no question about that.
I think it`s been very clear in terms of the numbers that have come out
with Latino voters that he is underwater, to put it that way. I know he
maintains that Latinos work for him and they love him, like everything else
that he says. It is hurting our party. I think Governor Bush and others,
and Marco Rubio, have tried to draw the distinction, that the Republican
Party and what they stand for is very, very different than what Mr. Trump
advocates. But there`s no question about it. I think that will hurt. I
think it can be overcome. I am sure Donald Trump will not be our party
nominee, and I believe that the candidate who will, will have a plan as
Governor Bush and others have laid out, that I think will be appealing to
our voters, and hopefully that distinction will be made clear very shortly.

CAPEHART: Adolfo, let me read you something from Matthew Dowd, who was a
campaign adviser to George W. Bush. This is something he told the New York
Times in January. He said, Mr. Ramos is quote, not only a journalist but
he has become the voice of the Latino constituency. And that`s where the
Republicans have to worry. You don`t want to lose Jorge Ramos." Do you
agree with that?

FRANCO: My views are the following. Full disclosure, Jorge Ramos is a
friend of mine, and I appear often on Univision. However, I think Mr.
Trump missed a legitimate opportunity to distinguish between advocacy
journalism and journalism that is supposed to be objective.

Let me tell you, Mr. Ramos, for our viewers, is the anchor at the 6:30 pm
Univision national broadcast. The equivalent of the network news.
Unfortunately, Univision and Mr. Ramos are advocates, my opinion, for the
Democratic Party, and have crossed a line.

Now, Mr. Trump handled it completely inappropriately. That`s not the way
to handle it. But it was a missed opportunity. Something that Politico, a
well known publication here in Washington, D.C., has called out. That the
owners of Univision, Mr. Ramos particularly, are advocating for a
particular point of view. Now make this clear, his program is not the same
as the other programs that are on MSNBC and Fox and others during the
course of the evening where people have a point of view. He is the
national anchor, advocating for a point of view. It is completely
inappropriate for Mr. Ramos to do so.

CAPEHART: Adolfo, Sabrina wants to jump in and react to what you said.

SIDDIQUI: I just wanted to say that one of the things about Jorge Ramos,
is that he has pressed Democrats just as hard as he has pressed

FRANCO: Not true.

SIDDIQUI: In 2012 he specifically sat there with Barack Obama.

FRANCO: President Obama.

SIDDIQUI: And said, President Obama, you promised immigration reform. You
failed to meet that promise. He has pressed him on deportations. He has
also actually raised the issue that Steve was raising earlier, that do
Democrats actually want to solve the issue of immigration or leave it on
the table for political advantage?

FRANCO: Sabrina, he has asked questions, there is no question. I respect
him. He is a friend of mine. He`s asked questions. If you look at the
questions and the way he frames the question, he was not asking Mr. Trump a
question. If you just play the tape here, he was debating with Mr. Trump.
He asked the president a question, a legitimate question, and he said a
promise is a promise. Can you explain it? That is a legitimate question.
That is different than advocating and being -- and engaging in a debate for
a person who is the anchor on national television. It`s inappropriate.

CAPEHART: Adolfo, when Jorge Ramos was asked about this by, I think it
was, George Stephanopolous --

FRANCO: Correct.

CAPEHART: He said that as a journalist, you have to take a stand when it
comes to racism and discrimination and a whole list of other things, where
he feels that journalists need to take a stand.

Do you think that`s appropriate? Actually I`m going to throw this out to
the panel.

FRANCO: Quickly, I think that`s inappropriate for his role as an anchor.
He should read the Fairness Doctrine of the United States. He is not an
investigative reporter. He is mixing up concepts here. When he delivers
the news in Spanish, which I watch every evening, it is biased, it is
slanted. He is presenting it in a way that the English press does not
present it at the same time slot.

CAPEHART: So Adolfo, let me bring in the two journalists here at the
table. Joan, do you agree with Jorge Ramos when he says that as a
journalist, you have to take a stand when it comes to racism,
discrimination, human rights violations, so on?

WALSH: Yes, I do. I do agree with him. I don`t think the Fairness
Doctrine tells an anchor how he has to present the news. And I think he`s
very clear. What I don`t like is when people don`t disclose their personal
beliefs and pretend to be objective, when you know they really have strong

MOORE: This is why no one on the right -- look, this was a completely
honest thing that Jorge said and it`s completely inappropriate. Look, I`m
a journalist, too. I work for the editorial page. We are paid for our
opinions. He is a news broadcaster. He is not supposed to be biased.

FRANCO: He is an anchor.

MOORE: He admitted his bias. Right. That`s why so many conservatives
turned away from the mainstream media. Because they`re all biased.


WALSH: This kind of journalism is hugely pressured by his community.

FRANCO: It does not matter -- I`m part of that community, and I don`t
appreciate it. For this reason. All of you know Walter Cronkite, great
figures in the press. Could you imagine the anchors on television giving
their opinion, their slant, during the news broadcast? I disagree with
you, Joan. He is not an investigative reporter. He is an anchor. He is
there to deliver the news, not his personal opinion.

CAPEHART: On that note, Adolfo Franco, thank you very much for being here

FRANCO: Thank you.

CAPEHART: Still ahead, Trump has energized the Tea Party. But can he get
his supporters to the polls?

But first, Senator Claire McCaskill isn`t afraid to say what she really
thinks, which makes her an absolutely wonderful interview. She`s next.
Stay with us.


CAPEHART: As book titles go, this is a great one. "Plenty Ladylike." That
is the name Senator Claire McCaskill has chosen for her new memoir. In
more than eight years in the Senate, the Missouri Democrat has gained a
reputation for being one of the chamber`s most outspoken members. And
recently she`s had plenty to say about the 2016 presidential field, both
the Democrats and the Republicans. On Friday, I got a chance to ask
Senator McCaskill about those comments, about some of the current
headlines, and, yes, about the title of her new book.


CAPEHART: So the title of your book is "Plenty Ladylike." Where did that
title come from?

SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL, D-MISSOURI: Well, during the debate in 2012 against
Todd Akin, the first debate I had with Todd Akin, he told the news media
after the debate that I wasn`t very ladylike. Then I remembered back when
I was young, I had a favorite teacher of mine tell me after class one day
that I was talking too much in class, the boys weren`t going to like me,
and it wasn`t very ladylike. So I thought it was a great way to
communicate with humor that I`m plenty ladylike, and that you can be
ladylike even if you`re outspoken and aggressive about the things you
believe in.

CAPEHART: Where did that outspokenness come from? I`ve heard you talk
about this before.

MCCASKILL: Well, my parents taught us -- I was told to say "trick or treat
and vote for JFK" when I was 7. They taught us that participating in
political campaigns was a civic duty. I never learned that all politicians
were evil and ugly and no good. I learned that these were people trying to
do their best in our democracy, and my parents always encouraged me to be
outspoken. And my dad always said, don`t worry about the boys not liking
you when you`re in high school and college. They`ll figure it out when it

CAPEHART: Todd Akin was the person you beat in your last election to be
re-elected to the Senate. You write in your memoir about dinners you and
fellow women senators on the Hill have together, where compromises were
discussed and important issues. How would the Senate be different or how
would the Senate change if there were more women in the Senate?

MCCASKILL: I want to believe -- and I know that some of this is a
generalization and some of it may be unfair to men, but I do believe that
the women in the Senate, we don`t try to make points at each other`s
expense. And that`s really part of the problem with Washington. One side
is not happy unless they`re making the other side look bad. And what we
try to do, because we have a lot in common, because we trust one another,
while we don`t agree and we have some major disagreements among women in
the Senate, we do try to work together where we do agree, and we do try to
move the ball in terms of actually getting things done, and I think more
women would mean probably less confrontations.

CAPEHART: Right. Well, Senator Schumer, Chuck Schumer of New York, was
the one who recruited you to run for Senate in 2006. I have to ask you,
when he is up for the leadership election, once Senator Harry Reid, the
minority leader, leaves, would you support him? Do you support him
becoming the next leader of Democrats in the Senate?

MCCASKILL: I do. I think he will be a strong leader. I think he is
strategic. I think he understands the importance of discipline of
messaging. We have got to make sure Americans know what we stand for. And
we need to be consistent. It`s not enough to just have a good idea. If we
can`t convey that in a way that gains support out in all of our states.
And I think he understands the need to be strategic in that way. And I
think for that reason, I think he will be a very good leader.

CAPEHART: I ask that question because Senator Schumer split with the
administration on support for the Iran deal. He is against the deal. You
are for the deal. Do you think that his going against the administration
is reason enough to not have him be the next leader of the Democrats?

MCCASKILL: You know, I`ve split with my party many times. I`m from a
state where a huge swath of my constituents, they want me to be
independent. They want me to make a decision not based on what my party
leadership wants. So I think that Chuck is very patient with all of us.
We have much more room for moderates in our party, I believe, than they do
in the Republican Party. And part of the reason is that our leaders
understand that sometimes many of us can`t toe a party line. So I think
this is an instance where all of us get why Chuck is against it. For me,
it was a tough decision. Overall I believe it`s better than the
alternative. But I don`t think it`s the kind of issue that puts his
leadership in any kind of jeopardy.

CAPEHART: Now, if the Iran deal goes down, what would that do to America`s
credibility around the world?

MCCASKILL: I think it would harm it. That`s one of the things -- I took
some time because I wanted to talk to not just all the countries that are a
party to this negotiation, but also to the countries that hold Iran`s
money. We don`t hold their money. So I wanted to find out from India,
from South Korea, and from Japan and these various nations what they`re
going to do with Iran`s money if we were to walk away. And it wasn`t clear
to me that the sanction regime would hold fast. And there`s a likelihood
that Iran would get this money anyway, even if we walked away. So we would
be isolating ourselves in the world after driving this agreement, and
getting everyone into sanctions and getting everyone at the table. For us
to then walk away I think it would harm our standing in the world.

CAPEHART: Let me bring you home, closer to home. The potential of a
government shutdown over funding of Planned Parenthood, what`s the
likelihood of that happening?

MCCASKILL: I hope it`s not great. I am not a fan of this governing by
crisis that the Republicans seem to embrace. You have got to do it my way
or we`re going to shut everything down. That`s not -- I mean, this is why
people are so angry at Washington. This is why people are so cynical. If
you don`t have the votes to do something, then why would you want to shut
down the government over it? That doesn`t accomplish anything.

CAPEHART: Well, there are a few people running for president right now who
are your colleagues there on Capitol Hill who are saying absolutely, the
government should be shut down. How much are they playing into the
cynicism that the American people feel?

MCCASKILL: The irony is that the people that are doing really well in that
presidential primary are the ones that are basically outsiders. All of
those who are trying to show how divorced they are from Washington but are
of Washington are failing. And so I find it ironic.

You know, listen, these guys are all trying to get attention. It`s a cast
of thousands. Each one of them are trying to be more extreme than the
next. I don`t think that`s what most Americans will want come November of
next year. I certainly don`t think most Americans think it`s a good idea
to shut down the government when you don`t get your way.

CAPEHART: So I have to ask you -- you`re talking about people who are
outsiders running for president. Your view of Trump, is he the new normal

MCCASKILL: I don`t think he is.

CAPEHART: He`s getting away with a lot of stuff.

MCCASKILL: Yeah. I don`t think he is. I think people -- it`s almost like
a demolition derby. Everybody goes why would you watch it? But you can`t
look away. That`s what it reminds me of. It`s very American for us to be
distracted by the shiny object. And I think that`s what this is. I think
at the end of the day, people need to keep this in context. His
unfavorables are much higher than Hillary Clinton`s. He is only getting --
depending on the poll, about 25 percent of the Republican voters. That
means there is 75 percent of them who don`t want him. So I think by the
time this settles out, once again that Americans will decide to elect the
person president that shows the most strength and stability, not the
ability to be bombastic and with bluff and bluster.

CAPEHART: Also have to talk about Bernie Sanders, because you`ve said in
the past the Bernie Sanders phenomena can largely be attributed to the
cynicism of the American public when it comes to Washington.

MCCASKILL: Listen, I have great respect for the people who are supporting
Bernie Sanders. Bernie is talking about issues, substantive issues, that
really matter in this country, and that is income inequality and the fact
that so few control so much of the power in this country, because of how
weighted it has become in favor of the very wealthy. So I get what he`s
talking about and I get his supporters. But I do think they`re wanting to
shake the status quo, and that is something similar to many of the Trump
supporters who want to shake the status quo. But I have a lot more respect
for the Bernie supporters because I think they are drawn to his message,
which is about income inequality and making America as fair as possible.

CAPEHART: And on that note, I want to thank Senator Claire McCaskill,
Democratic of Missouri.

MCCASKILL: Thank you.


CAPEHART: Still ahead, Tea Party voters circle around a presidential
candidate. And yes, it`s exactly who you probably think it is.

But first, the latest on this morning`s developing news out of Houston.
That`s ahead, stay with us.


CAPEHART: Returning now to the developing news out of Houston, Texas, this
morning. Police have arrested and charged the suspect in the shooting
death of sheriff`s deputy Darren Goforth. Shannon J. Miles is being held
on capital murder charges. NBC`s Jacob Rascon has a latest from Houston.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As we pray, our father ...

JACOB RASCON, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Amid the national conversation about
questionable police shootings, this is seen disturbingly clear.

ANDRE REYNOLDS, FRIEND OF VICTIM: Darren would have given that monster the
shirt off his back if he asked for it. He didn`t have to do what he did.

RASCON: Hundreds of people gathered to honor Deputy Darren Goforth. Many
who knew him ...


RASCON: Most here did not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The callousness of what happened, it`s earth

RASCON: Goforth had just finished filling up with gas. Surveillance
cameras captured what happened next.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Six to eight shots and an officer is down.

RASCON: Investigators say Shannon J. Miles shot him in the back and kept
shooting, even after Goforth was down. Miles now faces capital murder
charges. He has a criminal record, but, according to the sheriff, didn`t
know his target.

(on camera): And why did you feel it was important to show up today?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I wanted to demonstrate that all lives

RASCON: The seemingly unprovoked killing brings race back into the

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It doesn`t matter about black and white anymore.
It`s just, you know, coming together of people that really matters and
that`s what the focus should be about.

RASCON (voice over): Goforth is remembered as a hero and leaves behind a
wife and two children. His wife spoke through a family friend.

ROBERT PARTIN, GOFORTH FAMILY FRIEND: All the language that I know is
inadequate for what I want to express. My husband was an incredibly
intricate blend of toughness and gentility. He was always loyal, fiercely


CAPEHART: My thanks to NBC`s Jacob Rascon.

Still ahead, Dick Cheney weighs in on the Iran deal with a very powerful

But first, the new look of heroism. Stay with us.


CAPEHART: It`s been quite a week for the three Americans credited with
stopping a gunman on board a train headed towards Paris. One of them
attended the Paris - straight out of (INAUDIBLE). And all three of them
received France`s highest honor - the Legion of Honor from President
Francois Hollande. But not everyone has been heaping praise upon the trio
because of what they were wearing at that palace ceremony, khakis and polo
shirts. But are those attacks really fair? It had been a little more than
two days since they thwarted the attack, and one of them had been
hospitalized for injuries he sustained nearly losing his thumb. Robin
Givhan summed it up perfectly in "The Washington Post", as a group, they
looked tidy, but informal, young but polished. Their clothes said so much
about happenstance and understatement which in turn spoke eloquently about
what unfolded on the train and how they have responded to it. The polo
shirts and khakis seemed pitch perfect because they underscored a kind of
nonchalant, but respectful ease that the men have exuded since being thrust
into the media spotlight. Pulitzer Prize winning fashion writer and editor
Robin Givhan and my colleague at "The Washington Post" joins us now from
Washington. Robin, thanks for being here this morning.


CAPEHART: So why do you think their attire resonated as a talking point
this week?

GIVHAN: I think it was striking because that sort of look like they were,
you know, all wearing little matching polo shirts and khakis, but it was a
very formal ceremony. The presentation of the medals. And they weren`t
wearing what I think a lot of people presumed they would be wearing, which
is either military uniforms, since two of them were -- are in the military
or business suits. But I felt that the way they looked really reflected
what had happened and the idea that we sort of drill into people, which is
if you see something, say something. If you see something, do something.
So, their actions weren`t based on something that -- an order that came
down from the government. It wasn`t a military action. They were acting
as civilians who saw something.

CAPEHART: And there`s a reason they didn`t have their military uniforms.
Because they`re on vacation, they don`t travel with them. They`re not
allowed to travel with them. Right?

GIVHAN: Exactly. You know, I spoke to someone at the Department of
Defense, who explained that, yes, they were traveling as private citizens,
as civilians. They did not have their uniforms with them and they didn`t
have access to them in Paris. And I think if they had worn uniforms, it
really would have changed the dynamic of the day`s events and it would
have, I think, changed the way that we understood the story itself.

CAPEHART: I mean, as you`ve written, it seems like they made a valiant
effort to look respectable for the occasion. Can you give us just a little
bit of -- how did they get those polo shirts and khakis, if all they had in
their suitcases were, I believe, just shorts and t-shirts because they were
on vacation?

GIVHAN: Well, you know, they`re 22, 23 years old. And, you know, they`re
on sort of the tour of Europe. So, they were traveling pretty light. And,
you know, it was a bit of a scramble to find something that would be
respectable and so there was a little bit of borrowing and, you know,
cobbling together a look. And, you know, as I said to people who have
wondered, why didn`t someone run out in the fashion capital of the world
and get them suits or jackets? And anyone who has ever been in Paris on a
Sunday, and particularly a Sunday in August, knows that attempting to shop
is a high hurdle and near impossibility.

CAPEHART: Right. Nobody is around. Joan, you wanted to jump in here.

WALSH: Well, I defer to Robin on this. If Robin thinks this is the way
they should be dressed I completely agree. I could imagine Jonathan
Capehart have jumped in and helped them out a little bit. But I loved it.
They look like the guys who actually were behind this heroism. They
weren`t dressing up like little, you know, perfect little Frenchmen. They
looked like they pulled out - they pulled some stuff out of their backpack,
they pulled the nicest khakis out of their backpack. Maybe they didn`t.
But I thought that the contrast - it said who they were. And it was great.

CAPEHART: And this stands in stark contrast to the Northwestern women`s
lacrosse team ten years ago. They showed up at the White House wearing
flip-flops. Now, anybody who knows me knows that I have a war on flip-

GIVHAN: And I support Jonathan in that war.


WALSH: Me too.

CAPEHART: I mean that`s not appropriate to wear flip-flops to the White

SIDDIQUI: No. But I think Robin`s point on this was particularly strong
when she talked about, you know, the way these men were dressed kind of
underscored also what actually happened.


SIDDIQUI: ... events as we understood it. They were just sitting there in
plain clothes, they saw this potential attack about to unfold and than they
stepped into action. It was - they weren`t on active duty. So, I kind of
like that it brought it all full circle in the way.

CAPEHART: And that`s the beauty of Robin Givhan`s story. If you haven`t
read it, go to "The Washington Post,", just type into the Google. Robin
Givhan, "Washington Post", khakis, polos.


CAPEHART: You know, because Robin, you did an excellent job, as you always

GIVHAN: Yes. Thank you.

CAPEHART: Bringing - blending the fashion and politics and making it
relevant to all of us. Thank you very much.

GIVHAN: Thank you very much.

CAPEHART: Still ahead, has the U.S. Olympic committee found an American
city willing to take on the games? And next, Donald Trump courts the Tea
Party vote. Stay with us.



TRUMP: And you know what I love? I`m leading with Tea Party. Big. I
love Tea Party. I love Tea Party people, stand up and take a bow. You
have not been treated fairly. You will be surprised how big you are. You
don`t know how big you are. You don`t know the power that you have. I
mean it. The tea party -- you can call it anything you want. I don`t care
about names. But the tea party has tremendous power.


CAPEHART: That was Donald Trump in Nashville yesterday, extolling the
virtues of the tea party wing of the republican Party in an effort to court
its voters. Trump finished first in a straw poll at that event, making it
clear that his blunt campaign style has the power to draw tea party voters.
But party leaders caution that it`s going to take a lot more than anger and
an unorthodox style. According to the leader of the Tea Party Express,
it`s not enough to capture the frustration, you`re going to have to go
further than that, and that speaks to the maturation of the Tea Party
movement. Trump has more tea party events on his schedule next month. He
is joining Senator Ted Cruz at a tea party sponsored rally to oppose
President Obama`s Iran deal. Let me ask the panel, is winning the tea
party vote enough to win the Republican nomination? The winner in Iowa has
rarely gone on to win the Republican nomination. Steve?

MOORE: He sure can. That`s where a lot of his support is coming from
right now, tea party people. I think the tea party was tremendously
impactful back in 2010, `11. We got these new budget numbers down, 400
billion, I think that`s the tea party. Here is what worries me as a
conservative Republican. I don`t want to see the tea party movement
becoming an anti-immigration movement. I think that`s death to the
Republican Party. And immigrants are important to the economy, and also I
think we`ve got to get those voters. Tea party has been kind of migrating
in that direction.


SIDDIQUI: That goes to the lingering impact of Donald Trump`s candidacy.
If he`s not the nominee, what kind of impact will he have on the eventual
nominee? He`s pulling these candidates into a discussion they don`t want to
have. They went from talking about immigration reform to discussing
birthright citizenship. This isn`t where they want to be. We all remember
what happened with Mitt Romney in 2012 with the self deportation comments.
All will likely come back to haunt them.

WALSH: I think this is pre-Donald Trump. You think about Eric Cantor`s

MOORE: That should have been a tip-off.

WALSH: That should have been a tip-off, and it`s saying that it`s not
taking Trump to fuse the tea party with a strong anti-immigration stance,
it`s happening organically out there, and it has become a pillar of tea
party thinking at this point.

CAPEHART: Here is where I`m confused. Poll after poll after poll all
these years about the waning support of the tea party. Why are we talking
about the importance of the tea party in the Republican Party? Is it on the
national level it`s waning, but in the Republican Party it`s holding firm?

MOORE: The tea party was huge in 2009 and 2010. That helped Republicans
win that historic midterm election. Once Republicans got in charge, it
waned a bit. It`s back big time. One last thing on immigration.
Republicans have to be pro-legal immigration and anti-illegal immigration,
and Trump has sort of blurred that distinction.


WALSH: And Scott Walker and Rick Santorum have raised question.

SIDDIQUI: The tea party never really went away. Republicans talk about
how they were able to beat back tea party challenges in the midterm
elections in 2014, but the party has shifted significantly to the right.

CAPEHART: So far to the right that the presidential candidate --


CAPEHART: -- they can actually get back to the center. Republican
shifting to the center, they`re still far right.


CAPEHART: Just leave it at that.

Up next, Dick Cheney makes an analogy about the Iran deal. Did he go too
far? Details on the other side of this break.


CAPEHART: There is a lot going on this morning. Let`s get caught up with
some of the other headlines making news with the panel today. We teased it
a lot, Dick Cheney saying stuff about the Iran deal. Former Vice President
Dick Cheney and his wife has a book coming out that says, President Obama`s
Iran deal will, quote, more than likely lead to the first use of a nuclear
weapon since Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

WALSH: It`s specious, it`s horrible. It`s Cheney. It`s Cheney-esque. He
can keep going lower when he talks about the danger--


SIDDIQUI: -- rewriting history. The Iranian nuclear program flourished
under the Bush administration, that`s been well documented, and they`ve
done this with ISIS, too, they`ve been blaming Obama on ISIS and its
existence, saying he withdrew out of Iraq too soon, but ISIS was in part
created due to the intervention in the first place.

CAPEHART: Do the Republican candidates like having Dick Cheney out there
talking about anything?

MOORE: I`m not an expert on this at all, but I would say this. Dick
Cheney is a national security expert, one of the top five national security
experts in the country. So yeah, you have to take what he says very
seriously about the Iran deal.

WALSH: He was wrong about the Iraq war. He`s an expert on getting us into
an unnecessary war that destabilized the region. That`s what he`s an
expert on.

SIDDIQUI: I think if you`re Jeb Bush, you probably don`t want him out
there talking too much. He`s going to focus attention on the Iraq war and
the real root of ISIS.

CAPEHART: Republicans want to move beyond the Bush-Cheney-

MOORE: No doubt about that.

CAPEHART: Well, then let`s move beyond that and go to Los Angeles. Los
Angeles strikes 2024 Olympic bid deal with the United States Olympic
Committee. If L.A. bids for the 2024 Olympics, will taxpayers be on the


WALSH: Yes, they`re always on the hook. You saw a real popular uprising
in Boston that pushed back Boston. I don`t know what`s going to happen in
Los Angeles. We`re finding these are not great deals for the cities that
host them. They might be great deals for parts of the business community,
but --

SIDDIQUI: The support has been higher in Los Angeles for this potential
Olympics bid, compared with Boston -


SIDDIQUI: But they also may not be too well versed in how much they`ll be
putting toward it.


CAPEHART: Finally, how the ball point pen killed cursive. I just want to
go -- this is from the Atlantic. Big pen recently launched a campaign to
save handwriting, and I`m all for it. The author said, ballpoint pens with
thicker ink and fewer smudges make it easier for people to use print
letters instead of cursive script. Quote, fountain pens want to connect
letters, ballpoint pens need to be convinced to write, need to be pushed
into the paper rather than merely touch it. Okay, come on. You`ve been
watching, I use a ballpoint pen all the time. I think it`s a travesty that
cursive is dying.

WALSH: I agree with you, but I thought that was a really interesting
article. It`s not my experience at all. I don`t feel that -- I don`t find
it easy to print, but maybe we were taught it, it was just so normal to

SIDDIQUI: I don`t think my handwriting fluctuates depending on what pen
I`m using, I think it`s just gotten significantly worse, and I`m always
typing on my phone and computer, and I only use pens to sign checks and


WALSH: You don`t take notes when you`re reporting?

SIDDIQUI: I text them on my phone.


MOORE: There`s something to be said these days, though, for a handwritten
note that really sticks out. (inaudible). We never do it anymore. I do,
I`ve got stationary.


WALSH: I`m going to write a thank you note after this. There is a study
about the way we think, and maybe we think differently, and I find that.
I`ll get a yellow pad when I have writer`s block and just start sketching


CAPEHART: Do it. Do it.

On that note, Steve has now (inaudible). I`ve already taken my bite. I
want to thank everybody on the panel today, Joan Walsh, Steven Moore,
Sabrina Siddiqui, thanks very much.

Thank you for getting up with us today. You can catch Steve Kornacki
sitting in on Hardball all this week. Up next, Melissa Harris-Perry. Stay
tuned. Have a great week.


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