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All In With Chris Hayes, Wednesday, October 14th, 2015

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Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: October 14, 2015
Guest: Sherrod Brown, Angela Rye, Keith Ellison, Michael Tomasky, Ben
Domenech, Margie Omero

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let me say
something that may not be great politics.

HAYES: Democrats seize the spotlight with a record audience.

SANDERS: The American people are sick and tired of hearing about your
damn e-mails.

HAYES: Bernie and Hillary shine.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I can`t think of
anything more of an outsider than electing the first woman president.

HAYES: And Lincoln Chafee was also on stage.

LINCOLN CHAFEE (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think you`re being a
little rough.

HAYES: Tonight, why both frontrunners have a claim to victory.

Plus, undecided voter and Democratic Senator Sherrod Brown on how he
saw the debate.

And what a difference a political party makes.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I never attacked him on his
look. And believe me, there`s plenty of subject matter right there. That
I can tell you.

HAYES: How the Democratic policy fight was way different from the
Republican food fight.

(CROSSTALK)

MODERATOR: I understand that, Governor, but --

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Following a pair of circus like GOP presidential debates, featuring an
insult fueling reality television star, last night, Americans got to
experience something quite different -- an engaging and legitimately
substantial exchange of ideas between Democratic presidential candidates
that was at times contentious but never grew nasty. The debate drew 15.3
million viewers, a record for a Democratic primary debate -- a number that
to be honest absolutely blew away the expectations.

While that number fell short of the 25 million who tuned into the
first GOP primary debate, 15.3 million is a striking number especially in
light of the relative seriousness on display throughout the evening.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: In this debate, we tried to deal with the very tough issues
facing our country. That`s in stark contrast to the Republicans who are
currently running for president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: While the candidates were unafraid to draw contrasts, they
were consistently respectful, collegial, and willing to defend each other
when the moment demanded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: Let me say something that may not be great politics. But I
think the secretary is right. And that is the American people are sick and
tired of hearing about your damn e-mails.

CLINTON: Thank you. Me, too, me, too.

SANDERS: Enough of the e-mails. Let`s talk about the real issues
facing America.

CLINTON: Thank you, Bernie. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: That doesn`t mean that candidates didn`t get into it. Clinton
went hard at Sanders on guns as we`ll discuss later in the show, and both
Sanders and Martin O`Malley went after Clinton with her unwillingness to
break up big banks and reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: In my view, Secretary Clinton, you do not -- Congress does
not regulate Wall Street. Wall Street regulates Congress and we got a
break off these banks. Going to them and saying, please do the right thing
--

CLINTON: No, that`s not --

SANDERS: -- is kind of naive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Clinton also had a number of really strong moments, including
when she articulated where she stands politically.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I have a range of views but they`re rooted in my values and
my experience. And I don`t take a backseat to anyone when it comes to
progressive experience and progressive commitment.

I`m a progressive, but I`m a progressive who likes to get things done.
And I know how to find common ground and I know how to stand my ground and
I have proved that in every position that I`ve had.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: There is one unifying theme in the debate, it was that this
was a Democratic Party that is not seeking to run away from its progressive
roots rather than embrace them. Consider the exchange that took place
after Sanders who calls himself a Democratic socialist suggested America
should look to countries like Denmark for guidance on how to help working
people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, MODERATOR: You don`t consider yourself a capitalist,
though?

SANDERS: Do I consider myself part of the casino capitalist process
by which so few have so much and so many have so little by which Wall
Street`s greed and recklessness wrecked this economy? No, I don`t. I
believe in a society where all people do well, not just a handful of
billionaires.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Let me -- just to be clear -- is there anybody else on this
stage who is not a capitalist?

CLINTON: Well, let me just follow up on that, Anderson. Because when
I think about capitalism, I think about all the small businesses that were
started because we have the opportunity and the freedom in our country for
people to do that and to make a good living for themselves and their
families.

(APPLAUSE)

And I don`t think we should confuse what we have to do every so often
in America which is save capitalism from itself. And I think what Senator
Sanders is saying, certainly makes sense in the terms of the inequality
that we have.

But we are not Denmark. I love Denmark. We`re the United States of
America. And it`s our job to rein in the excesses of capitalism so it
doesn`t run amok and doesn`t cause the inequities that we`re seeing in our
economic system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: That exchange goes to what was so dramatic about last night.
It was effectively coming out for Democratic Party that is massively
different than it was 20 years ago when progressive ideas were anathema to
many Democratic candidates. In fact, when Democrats running for high
office often did everything they could to distance themselves as much as
possible from the party`s left wing.

On the notion of a serious exchange involving the relative merits of
capitalism and democratic socialism involving the two frontrunners for the
party`s nomination would have seemed pretty laughable.

Joining me now, Democratic Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio, who has
worked closely with a lot of the Democrats who are on stage and also who
happens to be -- at least as far as we know -- an undecided voter.

Senator, as an undecided voter, as someone who has yet uncommitted
publicly, your focus group of one, you happen to be a senator. What was
your impression of last night?

SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: I`m decided in a sense that I`m voting
for the Democrats for president. I know that`s not a major news break.

But a couple of observations. First, I just -- my wife Connie and I
were sitting there and watching the debate last night. I`ve watched -- we
both watched two Republican debates in the contract was just incredible
between our debate and their two debates in terms of substance, in terms of
informational, in terms of the candidates` respect for the voters and for
each other.

All of that and the other thing that I think is what you just said
that I think is so important, Chris. And that is clearly this party is the
party of a little guy, little woman.

I mean, this is a party clearly now where I want it to be for all my
political life, a party that fights for progressive values, a party that
fights for fair trade. A party that looks to raise the minimum wage,
significantly, not just a dollar or two or three. A party that`s going to
stand up to Wall Street.

All the things that Democratic Party should be clearly the party is,
and I think you can look at every candidate, all of them were emphatically
saying that last night.

HAYES: You know, I can`t help but think about, you know, the year,
the sort of 1992, and then particularly also after 2004. And both those
cases in the world of people that wrote about the Democratic Party
analysts, journalists, pundits, there was a sense of, if you want to be
elected to high office as a Democrat, you got to show that you`re willing
to stick it to the left. In fact, you got show people that you actually --
you hate the left as much as the Republicans do. You got to go out of your
way to say I`m not like them. I`m here for you, and I`m not George
McGovern basically.

What has changed in your mind having watched this and a long career as
a progressive in politics? What changed?

BROWN: Yes, well, some of us have run campaigns. I ran two campaigns
for the Senate where you -- and in the end, whose side are you on? I think
that party leaders and activists, and party activists have really driven
this debate.

It`s the Sanders campaign partly, but it`s just party activists
realize where we`ve been and where we`re going. And they realize how far
right the Republican Party`s moved.

Earlier today, I was at the University of Dayton, speaking to the
political science class taught by the former governor of Ohio, Bob Taft,
who has become a friend of mine. He defeated for an election, my only loss
in my career some 20-plus years ago.

But what I -- I talked about his grandfather a little bit. His
grandfather was Mr. Republican. Senator Bob Taft who stood on principle
but was clearly the sort of leading conservative of his time in the mid-
20th century. But Taft didn`t have this I hate government. Taft actually
believed in how a role of government and housing and some other things were
government did it best.

But the Republican Party now is so far right, that I think Democrats
realize they don`t have to follow them to the right. We can stand for
something. This race is not going to be a referendum in the general
election on Hillary Clinton or whoever the nominee is. It`s going to be a
contrast between us and them.

And that contrast is so clear on Wall Street, on foreign intervention
in the Middle East, on minimum wage, on trade issues, the contrast between
the two parties is so clear and so sharp. That`s why we`re going to win
this election, because clearly the public is with us. We don`t need to
compromise our progressive values and our progressive stances because
that`s clearly not just the mainstream of the Democratic Party, it`s the
mainstream of this country. No doubt.

HAYES: All right. Senator Sherrod Brown, thanks for your time
tonight. I appreciate it.

BROWN: Always. Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: All right. Joining me are now are Democratic political
strategist Angela Rye, CEO of Impact Strategies, and MSNBC contributor Sam
Seder, co-host of "Ring of Fire" radio show.

Sam, you were there in Vegas. What was your impression?

SAM SEDER, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, the impression was a
little bit sort of I guess dictated by the fact I was surrounded by media.
But I got to say that I think, look, you know, Hillary Clinton, I think she
put out the fire in terms of the establishment concern about her and closed
the door on any opportunity that Joe Biden might have had.

But I think what was really striking was that, you know, Bernie
Sanders was sitting up there and he was going toe to toe. I mean, they
weren`t necessarily going at each other. But there was a sense, I think,
for a lot of people who didn`t know who Bernie Sanders was that some type
of Democratic socialist was some type of bogeyman.

I think that he really succeeded in I guess phase one of introducing
himself to the country, because I don`t think there was a lot of Democratic
voters who really knew much about him. I think he was very effective in
showing a clear agenda. I think he`s got some work to do in terms of
differentiating himself from Hillary Clinton who did a good job in trying
to sort of draw him close.

HAYES: Right.

SEDER: But I think this was a good first step for him. You know, I
imagine we`re going to tell in a couple days to see if that resonated with
voters.

HAYES: You know, Angela. I was never so happy to see CNN kill it in
the ratings, as they did last night. Not usually my reaction to that turn
of events.

But I was really gratified. I mean, I was thinking to myself, two
things. One, this is pretty substantive. Like we`re talking about shadow
banking and whether Glass-Steagall reposition will address the financial
regulatory concerns that might bring about the next crisis, but also pretty
dramatic.

And I was kind of wondering like, are people hanging with this? Are
people going to go there with this? And I think it pretty gratifying it
turned out they did.

ANGELA RYE, CEO, IMPACT STRATEGIES: Yes. I think that people are
less concerned about whether they know what that Glass-Steagall is and more
concerned about the fact that is what is being discussed rather than how a
woman`s face looks or whether or not there should be a wall built that is
affordable. We cannot afford it in this country.

And I think that is the bigger issue here. We got to see Hillary
Clinton supporters that cheered really loud when she said something really
positive and Bernie Sanders voters and supporters that are cheering really
loud when he did.

So, both of them, I think, reaffirmed to their support base why they
were supporting them to begin with. I also think that Bernie got quite a
few extra nods. I even want a Bernie shirt that says "enough with the damn
e-mails".

There were a up in of great moments. I think for the rest of them,
unfortunately, Martin O`Malley didn`t show up the way that I thought he
would. I actually am surprised by the fact that he came across more
inauthentic than I`ve ever seen Hillary Clinton come across.

Maybe he was too practiced and too rehearsed, but I`ve been saying
today he was the Democratic version of Scott Walker.

Lincoln Chafee, just weird. I don`t think we have time to get into.
Who blames a vote on their dead father?

And then, of course, with Jim Webb, who says that the enemy they`re
most proud of is someone they killed?

So, there was just really epic fail moments. But there were also
amazing mic drop moments.

HAYES: Yes, Sam, well, the Jim Webb is remarkable, because if anyone
has any opportunity to go read the actually the honor that was bestowed on
him for what happened in that fight, it`s incredible what Jim Webb did.

It was an amazing moment in that room. People are speaking
metaphorically about enemies, and Jim Webb is speaking quite literally.

Sam, the point about this stature of Bernie Sanders there, I thought
was also key there. I mean the big sort of take away and the pundit class
is like, oh, well, Hillary Clinton isn`t tripping over herself which was
never going to be the case anyway. But, you know, if you said to me on a 1
to 10, the performance of Bernie Sanders for the best hopes he could have
had six months ago, I say it`s like a 30 right now.

SEDER: Yes, I agree. And I think, you know, the next step I think
that Bernie Sanders, I mean to really convince people within the Democratic
Party that he is someone who can both win and also govern pragmatically. I
mean, I think that clip you played of Hillary Clinton saying I`m a
progressive but I`m also that can get stuff done.

I think Bernie Sanders has a record of being able to work with people
across the aisle and I think that he needs to establish that. The
Democratic voters, so they can begin to get a notion of Bernie Sanders
governing. I think he did a great job last night of sort of laying out an
agenda. And, you know, frankly, I`m also excited there were a lot of
people watching. It would have been nice if Anderson Cooper was able to
show and introduce questions that showed that there is actually a bigger
difference between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders than I think people
got a sense of last night.

HAYES: That`s less -- I think that is less on the debate moderation
and more on a very specific point and strategy on the Clinton campaign to
essentially do as much as possible to erase that distance and they have
executed that incredibly well. I mean, that is really coming from them.
Yes.

Angela --

SEDER: You need to be in the weeds to really understand how she was
parsing in some ways. In many ways, she`s adopting I think President
Obama`s strategy from 2008.

HAYES: Angela, is that sort of your feeling about that kind of
Hillary Clinton managing the kind of allied those differences as much as
possible, except on guns, obviously?

RYE: So, a couple of things. One is I do honestly believe that
Hillary Clinton has a record of being progressive both before she was ever
secretary of state and before she was a senator in New York, before she
was, you know, a country speaking first lady of the state of Arkansas. I
mean, she actually does have a record of registering minority voters in
Texas and working for the Children Defense Fund. She actually does have a
record that supports that.

Now, of course, we know that evolved. We know the party evolved and
the party is still evolving now. So, I think she was very, very effective
as well in saying, you know, listen, I continue to change as I read more
things. There was an answer I didn`t like so much about Keystone because
it wasn`t so much of an answer. But I think she was very effective.

One thing that I would say about Bernie Sanders, he decided before
they went into the debate that he was going to take the high road. That he
wasn`t going to attack her. He stuck to that, even when she tacked him on
guns, and he had an opening.

When he said, you know, "We don`t regulate Wall Street, Wall Street
regulates us", he could have taken it a step further, as we know Glass-
Steagall was repealed under Bill Clinton. He could have said and regulated
the Clinton administration. There would have been a thunderous applause.
Maybe she already had a response.

But that I think was a moment where he could have shown distance.

HAYES: That`s a great point. Part of that is just who Bernie Sanders
is as a human being and who he`s been for a politician and he`s not going
to change now. We`re seeing that. It`s sort of remarkable that he is up
there kind of toe to toe as Sam said.

Angela and Sam, thank you both.

RYE: Thank you.

SEDER: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Still to come tonight, much more analysis on that
first Democratic debate, including the two dominant performances by
frontrunners Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton. We`ll take in-depth looks
at their best and worst moments.

Plus, a study in contrast. How last night was a remarkably different
scene from the Republican debates. Much more civil, much more policy
driven discussion, fewer personal insults.

Those stories and more, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want to be the party
and I want to be different than we`d been in the past. I want to be
someone who says, you know, I want to defend everybody -- rich, poor, black
and white. I want to defend everybody and defend the entire Bill of
Rights.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: That was Rand Paul in Iowa, calling on his party to get with
the times. Put on a shirt and tie and blue jeans.

Just four minutes later, Paul`s vision for a party that defends
everybody was tested by a questioner in the crowd.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTIONER: Do you think an employer should be able to fire an LGBT
employee because that person is LGBT?

PAUL: I think really the things you do in your house, you just leave
those in your house, and it wouldn`t have to be part of the workplace, to
tell you the truth. It`s not so much about that question as it is about
that it sets up a classification or a class of people who can now sue. You
see what I mean?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Paul went ton sat government should not get involved in this
issue but offer the following consolation to LGBT Americans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: I think society is rapidly changing. And if you are gay, there
are plenty of places that will hire you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Shortly after Paul`s comments surfaced on Twitter, Hillary
Clinton issued this response, writing, "The feeling when a GOP candidate
says it`s acceptable for being fired for gay," with the gif of her from
last saying no.

Just ahead, we`ll have a lot more. That`s the latest in gif reporting
on ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES. We`ll have much more on last night`s debate,
including the Clinton exchange you saw in that gif, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MODERATOR: You said you smoked marijuana twice and it didn`t quite
work for you. If you were a Nevada resident, how would you vote?

SANDERS: I suspect I would vote yes.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: While many of the headlines today touted Hillary Clinton as
the big winner in Las Vegas. Bernie Sanders fans are reporting to his
dominance last night. For example, his campaign said it raised $1.3
million last night in the four hours, four hours after the Democratic
debate began. Sanders also gained the most new Facebook followers, more
than 35,000, increasing the following to 1.69 million. Clinton added about
18,000 increasing her following to 1.54 million.

According to his campaign, Sanders also added more Twitter followers
than the other four candidates. Plus, he got more Google search traffic
than all the other debate candidates.

And then there was the focus groups.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Raise your hands, think that Bernie Sanders won
this debate.

Most of you. OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many of you walked in here supporting Hillary
Clinton, raise your hands?

Half of you.

How many of you are still supporting Hillary Clinton?

Only a small percentage.

So who won the debate?

CROWD: Bernie Sanders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Let me point out that there is nothing scientific about focus
groups or Google searches or social media followers. But that said, I
think it`s plausible ala Ben Carson of the Republican side, that the
national exposure from last night`s debate could give Bernie Sanders a
boost in national polls.

And joining me now, Congressman Keith Ellison, Democrat from
Minnesota, one of two House members who has endorsed Senator Bernie
Sanders.

Congressman, I want to -- I want to play an exchange about guns last
night which was one of the more contentious exchanges in the entire debate.
The place where it seemed like Bernie Sanders was on his heels the most and
get your reaction to it. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MODERATOR: Is Bernie Sanders tough enough on guns?

CLINTON: No. Not at all.

Senator Sanders did vote five times against the Brady bill. Since it
was passed, more than 2 million prohibited purchases have been prevented.

He also did vote as he said for this immunity provision. He was going
to give immunity to the only industry in America. Everybody else has to be
accountable, but not the gun manufacturers.

SANDERS: As a senator from a rural state, what I can tell Secretary
Clinton that all the shouting in the world is not going to do what I would
hope all of us want. And that is keep guns out of the hands of people who
should not have those guns and end this horrible violence that we are
seeing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Congressman, what was your reaction to that exchange?

REP. KEITH ELLISON (D), MINNESOTA: My reaction was that Bernie
clearly is on the side of sensible gun safety. Clearly condemn the
violence. I believe he went on to say that he was in favor of background
checks. He wants to keep guns out of the hands of people who don`t suppose
to have them.

I mean, I thought it was a clever moment for Hillary Clinton. It was,
you know, certainly a point of vulnerability. But I think that he handled
it well. And I think that it is absolutely true that violence is out of
control. We do have to stop it and we got to take policy decision moves to
make those changes. No doubt about it.

HAYES: You`re someone who I remember having you on this program
several years ago back when there was a question whether we would start
airstrikes against Syria, particularly when the evidence emerge of chemical
weapons. You`re someone who`s a member of the progressive caucus,
generally has been opposed to American military engagements.

But you supported intervention in Syria at that time. Do you think
Bernie Sanders has enough command of foreign policy issues? Do you think
he demonstrated them last night to be president of the United States?

ELLISON: Yes, I do. I think that prudence is wise. I think it makes
a lot of sense to get as much information as can you before you act.

Now, look, me supporting Bernie doesn`t mean that he and agree on
every single thing.

HAYES: Of course.

ELLISON: But I want a commander in chief who is going to really be
deliberate. And I think Bernie will be that.

You know, I think that he handled himself well. He showed command of
the issues. He showed that he was emphatic to the flight of the refugees
in Syria. He showed that he understood, you k now, how going in and doing
a military intervention can have some really serious consequences.

So I think that that`s a good thing. Here`s a reality. Any president
who is going to be engaging advisors, members of Congress and a lot of
people, and so, I think that is really what you want. What will this
process be? I think it will be to engage and get the best information.

And then as he said, if he has to defend America, he will do so.

HAYES: Let me ask you this -- you`re one of two members of Congress
that have endorsed Bernie Sanders. I believe Raul Grijalva is the other
one.

ELLISON: Yes, that`s true.

HAYES: And Hillary Clinton I think in the House has ballpark about
115 endorsements. Why that asymmetry? How do you -- is that just pure
fear of the Clintons? Is that people sort of backing the horse they think
is going to win? What do you make of that?

ELLISON: You know, it`s tough for me to guess people`s motives. I
don`t know if it`s a good idea for me to try to do that.

Here`s why -- I`m endorsing Bernie, and I think Raul is too, as a
matter of conscious. We believe the bills that he and I both sponsored,
I`m talking about Bernie, are good for America. Bernie and I are both --
the House and Senate office on raising the minimum wage to $15, on
stripping the fossil fuel companies from subsidies, public government
subsidies.

We`re both the House and the Senate author on making sure proposing
that we only have prisons be a public function and not be sublet to the
private sector through privatization. I mean, this is what -- this is why
I`m in.

The other reason I`m in is because I love the fact he is reaching out
so broadly, that he is engaging electorate. He is causing excitement.
After an election with 72-year low on voter participation, 36 percent of
the people voted. You know, we need somebody who is going to generate some
street heat. Bernie is doing that, and I`m excited to be a part of it.

HAYES: All right. Congressman Keith Ellison, great thanks.

Coming up, if you started to get a feeling that Hillary Clinton was a
candidate falling by the way side, she made sure to clear up that for you
last night. A look at her performance is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: After last night debate the big, collective response from
professional pundits on TV was something akin to, wow, look at Hillary
Clinton.
She`s not some kind of defensive, inauthentic, scandal-laden robot like so
many of
us have been saying she is. She did actually pretty good.

Which, of course, should not be shocking to anyone. She is the same
woman who got some 18 million votes last time around. Who is, without a
doubt, one of the most formidable public figures of our time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Secretary Clinton, is Bernie
Sanders tough enough on guns?

HILARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No. Not at all.

Senator Sanders did vote five time against the Brady Bill. Since it
was passed, more than two million prohibited purchases have been prevented.

COOPER: Which enemy are you most proud of?

CLINTON: Well, in addition to the NRA, the health insurance
companies, the
drug companies, the Iranians, probably the Republicans.

This committee is basically an arm of the Republican National
Committee.

MARTIN O`MALLEY, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE : I think we need someone
that
has the best in ethical standards as our next president. That`s how I feel.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, do you want to respond?

CLINTON: No.

COOPER: Governor, governor --

CLINTON: I can`t think of anything more than of an outsider than
electing the first woman president. But I`m not just running because I
would the first woman president.

It`s always the Republicans or their sympathizers who say you can`t
have paid leave, you can`t provide health care. They don`t mind having big
government to interfere with a woman`s right to choose and try to take down
Planned Parenthood.

They`re fine with big government when it comes to them. I`m sick of
it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Joining me now, Michael Tomasky, special correspondent of The
Daily Beast, author of a Hillary Clinton biography, which is an excellent
read I would recommend to you out there watching.

No, it is, Michael.

MICHAEL TOMASKY, THE DAILY BEAST: Okay.

HAYES: You, you know, you -- that first book is sort of about her
when she was run for Senate in 2000. Sort of the first time after a long
time in public life running as a candidate.

I feel like there is always this weird thing about oh, she`s bad.
She`s inauthentic. She`s robotic. It`s like, she`s actually quite good at
thins and has quite a commanding presence. Last night you can almost kind
of watch everyone remember that.

TOMASKY: Yeah. You`re really right, and you nailed it in your lead
in.

I think among media elites, I think the expectation was so low because
this view has set it, has become so ingrained. She`s wooden, she`s robotic,
she`s this, she`s that.

I think the expectations of her were so low that when she exceeded
them-- and I don`t think she was astonishingly better than Bernie Sanders.
I guess I would say between the two of them, she won it, but I thought
Sanders had a really good night, too.

I think the expectations for her were so low among the chattering
class that when she proved to be competent both substantively and
performatively, that she just knocked people out of their shoes or
something.

HAYES: Right. And I think there were a few key moments. One was when
she was offered the opportunity to go after Bernie Sanders on guns, which
is not-- you know, it`s a perfectly legit shot in a debate like this. I
thought she had the
better of the argument, and she pressed it, and she delivered it
effectively. It was sort of this moment where it was like, right, we`re
debating. I`m doing this. We`re all doing this. I thought that was a great
moment for her because it in
some ways felt like that was the first moment of this campaign officially.

TOMASKY: Yeah, it was. It was a surprising moment I thought. I don`t
think many of us expected her to go after him that hard. She knocked him
back on his
heels a little bit. I mean, this was the only time of the night, I thought,
when he wasn`t sounding really like the authentic guy that he sells himself
as and that he usually is.

This is a guy that wants to slice the ears off of Wall Street people,
and yet he wants to sit down and reason with Wayne LaPierre? She got him
there.

HAYES: She also, I mean, it is really noticeable the degree to which
this campaign has drawn a lot of lessons from 2007 and 2008. And one of the
most obvious is in 2007 and 2008, the fact that she would be the first
woman president was a kind of subtext that was never explicitly said.

In some ways I think they were defensive about it or worried that they
had to convince American voters that a woman could be commander in chief.

That is not the case here. This is front and center. She is proud, she
is unabashed, and I think effective when she says this is a big deal what
we`re talking about.

TOMASKY: Yeah. I think she`s effective at it. I mean, this is going
to be
something that if she is the nominee is going to, you know, it`s going to
play out obviously over the course of the next 13 months. And we`ll have to
see.

And underneath this rhetoric, Chris, of course there are numbers, and
I`m sure her pollsters are crunching the numbers now, and trying to get to
the bottom of it.

If she emphasizes this, she`s probably going to increase her
percentage of the women`s vote and her percentage of the white women`s vote
in particular, which a lot of viewers may not know, Democrats usually lose.
Mitt Romney won among white
women. Democrats always win among women overall.

So she`ll augment her percentage among white women, but she`s going to
lose some men by doing this. Let`s face it. She`s going to.

Now, is she going to gain more than she`s going to lose? That`s the
gamble that she`s taking by emphasizing it. I think she`s right to
emphasize it, because it`s a contrast to Barack Obama. Barack Obama could
not talk about being the first Black president for a lot of reasons. But
one, one of which, to go back to numbers, African-Americans are only 13% of
the country and women are 51-52% of the country.

HAYES: Right. That shear demographic fact that informs a lot of the
kind of structural and strategic calculations that were being made by this
campaign.

Michael Tomasky, thanks for joining me.

TOMASKY: Thanks.

HAYES: Last night was the chance for the other, lesser known
Democratic candidates to address the nation they hope to lead and well,
we`ll show you how they did straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: There are really only two declared Democratic presidential
candidates
that are commanding large amounts of support, if you don`t count Vice
President Joe Biden who, of course, is not declared, not running.

So, last night was a big opportunity for three of the other four
candidates to make their case before 50 million people. It`s fair to say
that none of them
had truly breakout moments.

Former Governor Martin O`Malley was forceful and accomplished.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O`MALLEY: We are a nation of immigrants, we are made stronger by
immigrants.
Do you think that for a second that simply because somebody is standing in
a broken cue on naturalization they`re not going to go to the hospital and
that care isn`t
going to fall on to our insurance rates?

I am for a generous, compassionate America that says we`re all in this
together. We need comprehensive immigration reform. It will make wages go
up in
America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Former Governor and former Senator Lincoln Chafee was hard to
describe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: In 1999 you voted for the very bill that made banks bigger.

LINCOLN CHAFEE, (D) PRESIDENTAL CANDIDATE: The Glass-Steagall was my
very first vote. I had just arrived. My dad had died in office. I was
appointed to the office. It was my very first --

COOPER: Are you saying --

CHAFEE: I had just arrived at the United States Senate. I had been
Mayor of my city. My dad died. I had been appointed by the governor. It was
the first vote and it was 90-5.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Former Senator Jim Webb was interesting in having a world view
in politics quite different from anyone else on stage, and he had a really
classy moment on stage with Senator Bernie Sanders, when Anderson Cooper
tried to prompt
him to attack Sanders for being an conscientious objector to the Vietnam
War.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM WEBB, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Everybody makes their
decisions, particularly one at a time when there is conscription, and as
long as they go through the legal process that our country requires, I
respect that. It would be for the voters to decide whether Senator Sanders
or anyone else should be president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: At the end of the debate, Webb added this exclamation point to
his evening.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: You all have made a few people upset over your political
careers, which enemy are you most proud of?

WEBB: I`d have to say the enemy soldier that threw the grenade that
wounded me, but he`s not around right now to talk to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: I went into last night thinking that out of the six Democrats
running for president, with just five on stage, I`d like to hear from all
of them. And, Larry Lessig being the sixth, he was not there.

If Lincoln Chafee is on that stage again in the next debate and Larry
Lessig isn`t, something is very wrong.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY LESSIG, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We`ve got a real campaign
with a
real issue. That`s the important thing here, right? We could change the way
campaigns are funded tomorrow. And if we did, and made so candidates for
congress were not spending 30 to 70% of their time talking to the tiniest
fraction of the 1%, but instead raising money from everyone in their
district or across the country, that would radically change the
concentrated interest in congress.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Lessig goes on to change how all campaigns, presidential
campaigns included, are funded in this country. That strikes me as a pretty
important thing to be debating. He should be on that stage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTAL CANDIDATE: I thought that Hillary did
her
job. She got through it. I personally thought she won the debate. I thought
Bernie was off, he was not doing so well. I thought that other people
shouldn`t even be up there to be honest with you. I thought a couple of
them were ridiculous.

But -- you know , it`s always tough when you have people that
shouldn`t be there, and they`re taking up a lot of time, a lot of effort,
and a lot of everything else, and you`d like to hear more from the people
that really have a chance to win.

I mean, in all fairness, the Republicans have the same situation
going. So, it`s one of those things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Donald Trump offering up his critique of the Democratic debate
and of his own competition in the Republican party where his front-runner
status seems to be solidified.

New poll showing Trump dominating among Nevada Republicans with 38%, a
full 16 points ahead of number two, Dr. Carson, and 22 points ahead of Jebb
Bush, who comes in at six.

It`s a similar situation in South Carolina where Trump is at 36%,
Carson has half that, while Jeb Bush languishes at 6%.

Perhaps the best indicator of Trump`s current status, when asked who
has the best chance of winning the general election in November 2016,
becoming President of the United States, nearly half of Republican voters,
44% in South Carolina and 47% in Nevada, pick Donald Trump.

A number that didn`t escape Mr. Trump. You`ll be shocked to hear.

Here he was in Richmond, Virginia just over an hour ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Here`s an important one. The best chance of winning in
November, Trump, number one, 47%. Amazing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Last night`s Democratic debate was a study in contrast with
the
Republican field, which has already faced off in two prime time contests.

While the Democratic candidates largely agreed on the main problems
facing the country and differed substantively on the best ways to tackle
them, both Republican debates, especially the second one, also hosted by
CNN, where short on policy and long on mudslinging and sensationalism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I hear your wife is a lovely woman.

JEBB BUSH, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She is, she is fantastic.

TRUMP: I don`t know her --

BUSH: She is absolutely the love of my life and she`s right here. And
why don`t you apologize to her?

TRUMP: No, I won`t do that because I said nothing wrong.

MARK ORUBIO: America is a lot of things, the greatest country in the
world? Absolutely. But America is not a planet.

BUSH: 40 years ago I smoked marijuana and I admit it.

TRUMP: I never attacked him on his look, and, believe me, there is
plenty of
subject matter right there.

CARLY FIORINA: Watch a fully formed fetus on the table. Its heart
beating. Its legs kicking.

TRUMP: She`s got a beautiful face and I think she`s a beautiful
woman.

BUSH: You wanted casino gambling in Florida.

TRUMP: I did not.

BUSH: Yes you did.

TRUMP: Totally false.

BUSH: You wanted it and you didn`t get it. I was opposed to casino
gambling
before, during, and after.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Now, we wanted to bring you a similar montage from last night
Democratic debate, but it turns out it didn`t really work out so well.

The candidates refrained from taking personal shots at each other.
Certainly no one taking shots at someone`s looks. And they didn`t produce
much in the way of context free sound bytes. Even the most pointed
exchanges look like this one on Obama Care for undocumented immigrants.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I want to open up the opportunity for immigrants to be able
to buy in to the exchanges under the Affordable Care Act. I think to go
beyond that, as I
understand what Governor O`Malley has recommended so that they would get
the same
subsidies, I think that is -- that raises so many issues. It would be very
difficult to administer it. It needs to be part of comprehensive
immigration reform
when we finally do get to it.

COOPER: Governor O`Malley?

O`MALLEY: I think what we`ve heard up here is some of the old
thinking on immigration reform and that`s why it is gridlocked.

Do you think for a second that simply because somebody is standing in
a broken cue on naturalization they`re not going to go to the hospital, and
that
care isn`t going to fall on to our insurance rates?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: All right. Coming up, what the contrast says of the state of
our two
major political parties.

Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SETH MACFARLANE, FILM MAKER : I`m going to be brief because I want to
make sure that Jim Webb has a chance to talk. That poor guy. His whole
debate strategy was, excuse me, we haven`t gotten our salads yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Seth MacFarlane warming up the crowd for a Bernie Sanders
event in L.A., giving his impression this evening of last nights debate.

Joining me now, Ben Domenech, publisher of The Federalist, and, Margie
Omero, she`s democratic strategist and pollster.

Ben, part of -- I`m really curious how people in sort of conservative
media, the sort of chattering class, who are people who write at length and
think a lot
about policy -- and I know these folks. I interact. I read their stuff when
Marco Rubio comes out with a tax plan. How they must think watching the
Democratic debate just in terms of the level of the amount of time that`s
being spent on that versus who did Donald Trump insult?

BEN DOMENECH, THE FEDERALIST: You know, it`s interesting in the
contrast there.

I`m not sure that I agree with your premise. I looked at this debate
and I
saw very little debate about the ramifications of all these different
policies where pretty much everybody on stage had the same views. You know,
whether you`re talking about minimum wage, whether you`re talking about
free college, whether you`re talking about just about any other subject. It
seemed like there was very little wrestling with perhaps the negative
ramifications, the costs, the implementation of any of these things.

I think on the Republican side, you have certainly seen within the
Trump
conversation, a lot more of these back and forth, that`s more about insults
and that sort of thing. They do, to their credit, have it down when it
comes to everybody being in favor of the capitalism thing, which the
Democrats did not have. But, to their credit, the Democrats did have
someone who killed an actual communist on stage, and that was I think
certainly something that goes to Jim Webb`s credit.

I just think that most of this is about the fact that there is very
little
disagreement on left when it comes to these various policies. On the right,
there is more disagreement. We haven`t been able to see that as much in the
debates this far. I think that has a lot more to do with the questions that
are being asked, and Donald Trump`s presence than anything else.

HAYES: Part of that, though, also to me is, I mean, you know, we`ve
got a situation where you have, Margie, the two people leading the field in
the Republican party are two people that are explicitly anti-policy. I
mean, Ben Carson, Donald Trump, they have a world view and they have sort
of some kind of sense of where they want to take the country, but these are
not people that
really like to get in the weeds. And they are being rewarded by Republican
primary voters.

Where as last night I felt like what Democratic primary voters tend to
reward is some sense of like, command of these issues?

MARGIE OMERO, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, polls show that Republican
primary voters want a candidate who is an outsider. By almost 2-1
Republicans say that.

Democrats are more evenly divided between whether they want someone
with experience or someone who is an outsider.

Now, it`s hard to know what comes first. Your support for a particular
candidate or your decision that you like an outsider or someone with
experience.

That said, you do see on the Republican side candidates being
rewarded, whether it`s Trump or whether it`s Carson or even Fiorina for
that matter, who are
outsiders, who haven`t held elected office, who especially with Carson and
Trump, don`t feel the need to really fill in a lot of policy details, as
opposed to
folks with a lot more command of the material like Jebb Bush, who are
struggling to breakthrough. And other governors of large states.

On the Democratic side, I think a lot of Democrats watched the debate
last night and found it very refreshing, found it refreshing to see a
contrast, an actual real contrast over the issues and not the kind of
personal attacks that we have grown to expect from what has been happening
on the Republican side.

HAYES: To Ben`s point, I think you`re right that there was a kind of
remarkable consensus. I do think there were areas of disagreement about how
you go
about financial regulation and, you know, the college plans. I mean, these
are in the weeds. I agree that there`s a sort of agreement of the broad
trajectory and priorities.

But I got to think if you`re watching that, you`re Scott Walker and
Rick Perry, right? You didn`t even make it, like several months into this.
Those two guys could sit down and walk you through, you know, they cone
engage in a policy
debate, and they`re looking at these polls and Ben Carson and Donald Trump
still, multiple months into this, who couldn`t hold a hand a candle to
either of those people getting into the weeds of say, how you balance a
state budget. And they`re sitting at home and those guys are still out on
the stump.

DOMENECH: You know, it is certainly something that I think is a
challenge for the right, but I also don`t think that there has really been
an opportunity
to have this argument about do you replace Obama Care with a deduction
based plan that or a tax credit based plan, or that sort of thing to this
point. And, I think that`s going to change over the course of the
Republican field.

But again, I think that we really saw is a lot of unanimity from a lot
of people who are older, white, career politicians for the most part, with
the exception of Jim Webb again. And I think that is a pretty much
consistent field in terms of their economic and social policy priorities.

The differences are relatively small between the Democrats. And I
think that`s why frankly the Republicans make for better TV at a certain
point.

HAYES: Yeah, although I actually think that in the Republican party
there hasn`t been a huge amount of policy difference. There`s been more
sort of, you
know, kind of triumph the insult comic dog differences driven by one person
in particular on that stage.

Ben Domenech and Margie Omero, thank you both. Appreciate it.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right
now.

Good evening, Rachel.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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