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All In With Chris Hayes, Wednesday, October 21st, 2015

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Date: October 21, 2015
Guest: Bernie Sanders, Jess McIntosh, Adam Schiff, Michael Burgess,
Charlie Dent, Richard Keil, Bob Garfield


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

believe we`re out of time.

HAYES: The vice president ends the suspense.

BIDEN: The time necessary to mount a winning campaign for the

HAYES: Tonight, what this means for the Democratic front-runner and
the man trying to catch her. Senator Bernie Sanders will join me.

Then, and what did Exxon know and when did it know it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scientific evidence remains inconclusive as to
whether human activities affect the global climate.

HAYES: I`ll ask Senator Sanders why he`s calling for a federal
investigation of Exxon.

Plus, why Harry Reid is demanding the RNC pay for the Benghazi

And the Freedom Caucus comparing Paul Ryan to a maid who won`t wash

REP. PAUL RYAN (R), WISCONSIN: If I can truly be a unifying figure,
then I will gladly serve.

HAYES: The latest on the mutiny in D.C. when ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

After more than 80 days of "will he or won`t he" speculation, and more
than 40 years of pursuing his dream of becoming president of the United
States, Vice President Joe Biden took to the Rose Garden with his wife Jill
and President Obama to tell the world in a hastily convened announcement he
will not seek the Democratic nomination for president.


BIDEN: As my family and I have worked through the grieving process,
I`m said all along what I have said time and again to others, that it may
very well be that process by the time we get through it, closes the window
on mounting a realistic campaign for president. That it might close. I`ve
concluded it has closed.


HAYES: Biden and his family have been mourning the death in May of
Biden son Beau. According an August 1st "New York Times" column, Beau`s
dying wish had been for Biden to run for president. In the months since
that column ran, Biden has been openly considering a late entrance into the
race, though he warned he may not have the, quote, "emotional energy"
needed to do so.

In his 13-minute Rose Garden speech today, Biden called for free
college education for all Americans, a renewed focus on curing cancer and a
continued push for equality for all.

An apparent criticism of Hillary`s assertion in last week`s Democratic
debate, Biden made a point once again to say he does not view Republicans
as enemies, and he surged the Democratic nominee not to turn his or her
back on President Obama`s record.


BIDEN: This party, our nation, will be making a tragic mistake if we
walk away or attempt to undo the Obama legacy. The American people have
worked too hard, and we`ve come too far for that. Democrats should not
only defend this record, and protect this record, they should run on the


HAYES: A short time ago, I spoke to Bernie Sanders and asked for his
reaction to Biden`s decision.


Biden for many, many years, and like him very, very much. We were
anticipating running against him, we were anticipating running without him.
You know, I think he fought long and hard about this decision, what it
means to his family, what it means to the country, and he chose not to.

HAYES: So, you gamed this out, obviously.


HAYES: I mean, it would be irresponsible not to.

Is there -- is there a policy area, are there a set of policy
questions, legislative initiatives, conversations within the Democratic
Party that would happen that won`t happen with him not in the race?

SANDERS: I don`t know. I mean, I think in many ways his record was
not totally dissimilar from Secretary Clinton`s. He may be stronger on
certainly other issues. But we cannot know what we will not know. So, we
will see. But --

HAYES: But there were now things that you were gaming out saying
these -- this issue, this issue, this issue are going to suddenly be at the
front and center of the campaign if he gets in the race?

SANDERS: No, what we were doing is reviewing his record to know where
he stood and where we stood differently.

HAYES: When were you first elected to be mayor of Burlington,

SANDERS: 1981.

HAYES: 1981. So, 34 years ago.

You know, Joe Biden has been in public life for 40 years. He`s been
an elected person.

How hard is it to walk away? How hard is it to say, I`m not going to
-- there`s going to be a time when no one will have elected me?

SANDERS: I think it is hard. I mean, Joe is a passionate guy. Joe
takes these things very, very seriously. He works really hard.

And I want to repeat what I had earlier today, is that we seem to have
forgotten as a nation where we were seven years ago before Biden and Obama
took office. And you remember where we were. We were losing 800,000 jobs
a month.

These guys faced terrible obstructionism from Republicans, the
financial system was on the verge of collapse, we were running up the
largest deficit, and these guys worked together and led the country in
bringing us to a place where we`re obviously a lot better than what we were
seven years ago.

We still have an enormous amount of work to do.

HAYES: There`s a tension that strikes me in two things, for you
particularly. And that has to do with Joe Biden today, basically being
very clear to the field -- yourself included -- that you can`t run away
from the president`s record. You got to kind of run on the president`s


HAYES: To say Barack Obama is a fine president, I support him, and he
did a great job, and also, during his time in office, all of these economic
conditions for the middle class and working class have not improved.

I mean, there`s a tension between saying, yes, he`s done a good job
and also this stuff --

SANDERS: I don`t think there`s a tension, Chris. It`s simply the

When we came in, our world -- this world`s financial system was on the
verge of collapse. Eight hundred thousand jobs a month were being lost.
We are in much better shape now, but Democrats can`t go around saying,
well, gee, everything is good. We`re much better than we were when Bush
left office.

The truth is for 40 years, 4-0 years, middle class has been

HAYES: Right.

SANDERS: Huge and grotesque levels of income and wealth inequality.
We have a corrupt campaign finance system as a result of Citizen United.
We have more people in jail than any other country on earth, primarily
black and Hispanic.

So, we continue to have huge problems. But we should give Obama and
Biden credit for what they have accomplished, and understand we need to go
much further.

HAYES: Right. So, that`s the question to me is, there`s two ways to
think about the next Democratic president, one is continuing on the
trajectory that Barack Obama and Joe Biden, you know, as his vice
president, have laid out. And another is essentially a course correction
that the current trajectory won`t get us.

It sounds to me like you`re making the latter case.

SANDERS: Yes, I am. I mean, what I am saying is, look, I`m a great
personal friend of the president and the vice president. Both wonderful
people and I think they`ve done a damn good job.

But I personally believe, given the crisis we face right now, with the
power structure in America, we have corporate America and the Koch brothers
and the corporate media. And so much power on top, we need a political
revolution. We need to mobilize tens of millions of people to begin to
stand up and fight back and to reclaim the government which is now owned by
big money.

Do I think that that was the work -- was that the goal of the
president and the vice president? Not really. I don`t think so.

So I think we`ve got to go further. You know, I think we need to
stand up to Wall Street in a way that the president and the vice president
have not. I think we have to move toward making public education, higher
education tuition free for public colleges and universities. And I think
you got to tell the billionaire class they are going to pay their fair
share of taxes.

HAYES: Yes. Senator Bernie Sanders, we have you here in New York,
the rare occasion I got to talk to you face-to-face. And we`re going to
talk a little bit more later in the program about some -- your call for a
task force to investigate Exxon.

Much more on that later in the program.


HAYES: This afternoon, Hillary Clinton called Joe Biden after he
announced he wasn`t running, according to her press secretary. She also
tweeted that Biden is a good friend and a great man who inspires to change
the world for the better. An NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" poll out
yesterday showed Biden with 15 percent support in the race for the
Democratic nomination. The big question now is, where that support goes?

Right now, there are only two candidates in the race with any
appreciable support, Hillary Clinton and Bernie sanders. On the surface at
least, Biden`s decision would seem to benefit Clinton more than it does

In that new NBC News poll, Clinton`s lead over Sanders was 20 points
with Biden in the race, 25 points when Biden was left out as an option.

Joining me now, MSNBC political analyst Howard Dean, former Vermont
governor and former chair of the DNC, and Jesse McIntosh, spokesperson for
Emily`s List.

Governor Dean, let me start with you. Are you relieved by this
decision that you`re not going to have to be one of many people as a
Hillary supporter herself, out there basically going after Joe Biden, which
would have inevitably been where this ended up?

relieved. I`m relieved for Joe. I think he made the right decision. He
can now leave politics now he did almost more than anybody else serving as
a great vice president for eight years, and he can be proud of that record.

I was never -- I`ve never trashed Bernie Sanders, I`m not going to
trash Joe Biden. I don`t think that`s how we win general elections. So, I
wasn`t ever thinking I would be out on the campaign trail trashing Joe

HAYES: So, Jess, how much do you think this came as a surprise inside
Hillary land? How much do you think it was anticipated?

JESS MCINTOSH, EMILY`S LIST: I don`t think anybody anticipated it. I
don`t think anybody in Hillary land.

HAYES: Yes, that`s my sense, too.

MCINTOSH: I think if anybody said they knew what was going to happen
this morning, we took an informal poll in my office, and it was literally
split this morning, yes or not, with one even knowing that an announcement
was going t o be mad.

So, I think this was a decision he made on his own terms, with his own
consult, exactly as it ought to be. It frankly surprised the heck out of
everything, which is nice and refreshing.

MADDOW: Do you buy the -- one of the -- the poorly understood aspects
of what happened with Hillary Clinton`s numbers over the summer was that a
significant portion of the softening of her numbers had to do with the fact
that Biden was suddenly being included in polls.

Do you buy the standard conventional wisdom, which is that ultimately
it is now a race, at least for now between Hillary Clinton and Bernie
Sanders, and Biden`s absence helps Hillary Clinton?

MCINTOSH: Well, I think if you`re tracking one person`s poll numbers
over a large am of time and you, all of a sudden, introduce a third viable
candidate, everyone`s numbers go down. So we saw that happen. We didn`t
always see that put in the right context. We`ve seen her numbers compared
to her numbers as secretary of state, her numbers compared to her numbers
before she was a candidate. All of that, of course, is not the way you
track polls.

So, I think we are still see a very tight contest between Hillary
Clinton and Bernie Sanders. I think that Democrats are largely really
happy with those choices. I think we saw that coming out of the debate
last week. I think Democrats are excited about the conversation that`s
happening. It`s a really substantive one, which I know can be tough for
people who want to cover something that`s comparable with what`s happening
on the Republican side, because we just don`t have that.

But what we are having is a substantive conversation about agendas and
the way to take the country forward, with slight differences, which is the
way a Democratic primary ought to be. And I think what we`re going to be
seeing for the next few months.

HAYES: Governor Dean, let me ask you this question. I just asked
Bernie Sanders this. Sometimes you watch a guy who is 88 years old running
for another term in the Senate, and you think to yourself, you know,
there`s a lot of things you could do. I imagine at that point, there`s a
lot of books I want to read, or people I want to hang with, places I want
to travel. And it does seem pretty addictive.

I mean, part of what it felt like we were watching, aside from the
mourning process, was also him reckoning with not being a politician for
the first time in his adult life for 40 years.

DEAN: It`s pretty addictive, Chris, but I`m happy to tell you there`s
a real life after politics, and I`m enjoying the hell of mine.

HAYES: You`re a liar. You`re a liar.

DEAN: No, I`m not. I really --

HAYES: I`m just kidding.

DEAN: There`s a time and place for anything. I view my contribution
at this point as being a cheerleader for the next generation. I think
that`s a good place and they need that.

So, you know, it was interesting, watching Bernie. I`m obviously for
Hillary and I think she`s going to be a great president. I don`t think
there`s a single thing that Bernie Sanders just said in the interview that
you just did that I disagreed with.

HAYES: Right.

DEAN: So, I mean, I`m a happy guy. I think we have great candidates.
I am very much hoping we`re going to win the presidency. If we don`t, I
think this country is going to go in a very bad direction.

MCINTOSH: I couldn`t agree more.

HAYES: Jess McIntosh, you, of course, had Joe Biden in our 2016
fantasy draft. So, I extend my condolences on the loss of that. You will
not be getting any points going forward.

MCINTOSH: If you had told me I was going to get more points off
Donald Trump than Joe Biden when I played that, I would have told you, you
were insane.

HAYES: I know. See, politics is unpredictable. That`s why they play
the game, as they say.

Howard Dean and Jess McIntosh, thank you both.


DEAN: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Coming up, more from Bernie Sanders, I`ll ask him
about his call for a DOJ investigation into allegations that Exxon lied
about their knowledge of climate change.

Plus, House Democrats consider resigning from the Benghazi committee.
I`ll talk to one of them about that decision.

And later, Paul Ryan falls sort of getting a critical endorsement for
House speaker from the vaunted freedom caucus. We will look at what that
means. It`s right now very confusing.

Those stories and more, ahead.


HAYES: A great reminder of just how earlier we are in the 2016
nominating process and how much everything could change comes from an
article written in August by Phillip Bump of "The Washington Post."

In it, he looked at polling data from Gallup and Real Clear Politics,
and notes that on this day, October 21st, in the year before the 2004
election, General Wesley Clark was the top of the Democratic field, leading
by five points. On this day in 2008 election cycle, Hillary Clinton, you
may have heard of her, was way in front of everyone else, including the
current president, by nearly 26 percentages point.

In the Republican side, Rudy Giuliani led the field by nearly 9 points
and he would stay in the lead for another 78 days. In the 2012 cycle on
this day, well, of course, the poll was the one, the only Herman Cain up by
half a percent.


HAYES: Tomorrow, presidential candidate Hillary Clinton will testify
before the House Select Committee on Benghazi. The committee has become a
full-on political spectacle at this point, following the seeming admission
by House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy that the point of the committee was
to dry down Hillary Clinton`s poll numbers. That was echoed by another
Republican congressman, Richard Hanna.

The committee`s chairman, Trey Gowdy, pushed back hard, saying that
Republicans who are not even on the committee should shut up and stop
talking, and telling "Politico", quote, "When I hear about her, it is so
hard for me. You are not worth 18 months of my life, with all due respect.
Four debt people are, but you`re not."

Ahead of tomorrow`s testimony, everyone wants in on the act.
Presidential candidate Donald Trump says he was disappointed with Gowdy`s
recent comments.


forward to all of them, but with all that`s happening, I`m surprised he
pivoted away so much from Hillary. He said, these hearings are not about
her. Actually, we want to discuss other people much more so. And it
sounded like he was sort of pulling away from going after her.


HAYES: Presidential candidate and Gowdy fellow South Carolinian
Lindsey Graham tweeted, "Gowdy is leading a legitimate investigation on
Benghazi. Stand with Trey."

But now Democrats, led by Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, Senator
Dick Durbin, Senator Charles Schumer, Patty Murray and others are calling
on the Republican National Committee to pay for the seemingly endless
probe. Quoting the senators` letter to RNC chairman Reince Priebus, "Due
to the political nature of the committee, we believe it is inappropriate
that a reported $4.7 million taxpayer dollars were used to finance its
operations that the RNC subsequently orchestrated numerous fundraising
opportunities in its wake."

Two Democratic members of the committee, Congressman Adam Schiff and
Congresswoman Linda Sanchez, have suggested that if Republicans continue on
the same course, they may quit the committee, writing in an op-ed, quote,
"If the committee Republicans continue on this dangerous course, they will
likely have to do so alone. Democrats will reconsider how much longer our
participation makes sense."

Joining me now, one of those individuals, Democratic Congressman Adam
Schiff of California, member of the House Select Committee on Benghazi.

Congressman, this whole thing, you know, it seems to frankly
political, but the role of the Democrats also seems sort of preposterous at
this point. I mean, it`s not like you`re coming to some realization about
what this committee was. You basically said it from the beginning, you
joined reluctantly.

Is this a gimmick, we`re going to quit now? Why not quit now? Why
not ride it out, or why not quit six months ago?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, first of all, I don`t think
Donald Trump has to be worried. The committee began about Hillary Clinton,
it`s currently about Hillary Clinton, as long as it goes on, it will remain
about Hillary Clinton. That`s what the committee was formed for, as Kevin
McCarthy said.

No, it hasn`t been any change or any surprise to us, we have had this
debate frankly since the beginning of this committee, whether it makes
sense for us to continue participating. And here`s the dilemma, I`d be
very candid about it -- because we are on the committee, we`ve been able to
set the record straight, when they had made misleading leak after
misleading leak, the most egregious of which, Chris, was this amazing one
from the chairman himself. He issued a 13-page letter saying that
Secretary Clinton had endangered the lives of other but using a private e-
mail to mention a confidential classified source.

Only for us then to go to the CIA and say, is there anything
classified in this e-mail and have them say, no, there isn`t. What`s more,
this source isn`t classified, this is a well-known person. So we were able
to debunk that latest scurrilous attack from the chairman itself.

On the other hand, and this is where the dilemma lies, by
participating, we are giving some patina of respectability merely by our
presence that this committee really doesn`t deserve. And that`s we`re
wrestling with.

HAYES: So, committee aides in the majority told the ALL IN staff that
your record of attendance when these interviews has been poor. That you
called on the committee to be boycotted or disbanded from the merely the
beginning. And basically you`re not taking this seriously.

And let me note, having reported on Capitol Hill, you`ll get aides
going back and forth at each other from the majority, minority from time to
time. I`ve never seen anything like what is going on in this committee, in
which the respective staffs are basically constantly trying to destroy each
other in the inboxes of every reporter.

SCHIFF: And that was kind of a classic attack of the committee, which
like all the other taxes are versus misleading, and I`ll tell you. We`ve
had 53, 54 interviews. These are staff conducted interviews, the members
by and large don`t attend. In fact, Chairman Gowdy missed about 47 of the
first 53 interviews himself, he didn`t think it was worth his attending.

So, they can attack me for not attending, but their own Republican
members don`t attend. In fact, the chairman hasn`t attended the vast
majority of these hearings or these interviews rather.


SCHIFF: Tellingly, though, Chris, the few he`s attended have been
those mostly focused on Secretary Clinton. The chairman says and I think
him at this, that we should judge the work of the committee not based what
his own membership and his own leadership are saying, and even the own
investigator has said about the committee, but by the committee`s actions.
But, frankly, those actions are the most damning of all.

HAYES: So, what`s the tipping point? We`ll have the big spectacle
tomorrow. Hillary Clinton will be there. She`ll be there for a long time.
There`s all sorts of expectations in either direction.

I mean, are you looking for anything? Is there some sort of thing
that crosses the threshold where you resign or the Democrats resign en

SCHIFF: Well, this is not something where individuals I think are
going to resign from the committee. We will make a decision through our
leadership of when it makes sense or whether it makes sense to continue
participating. But here`s a dilemma or here`s the situation, rather.

That is, we don`t know where this committee is going after tomorrow.
The committee said we were going to do ten or a dozen interviews this year.
They canceled all of them except the one with Secretary Clinton.

So, we have no idea what`s coming next. In fact I think the majority
has no idea what`s coming next. I suspect that in an effort at least to
try to minimize the impact of Representative McCarthy`s admission and
others, they`ll go through the motions of some other hearings to show that
it wasn`t just about Secretary Clinton, but we don`t know, frankly. I`m
not sure they know, either.

HAYES: All right. Congressman Adam Schiff, thank you.

SCHIFF: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: Still ahead, after House members all out begged Paul Ryan to
run for House speaker, now it looks like the hard line Freedom Caucus will
not endorse him. That`s ahead.


HAYES: And the headline I never thought that I would see, the leader
of Germany just told the leader of Israel basically -- what you said was
wrong. The Holocaust was our fault and our fault entirely.

That followed a speech by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to
the 37th World Zionist Congress, where he said, quote, "Hitler didn`t want
to exterminate the Jews." Netanyahu then said it was a Palestinian leader
in Jerusalem who gave Hitler the idea.


exterminate the Jews at the time. He wanted to expel the Jews. And Haj
Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, "If you expel them, they`ll all
come here." "So what should I do with them?" he asked. He said, "Burn


HAYES: That account was roundly condemned, one historian in Tel Aviv
University saying, quote, "With this, Netanyahu joins a long line of people
that we would call Holocaust deniers".

A leader of the opposition party said the accusation was a dangerous
historical distortion, demanded that Mr. Netanyahu corrected immediately.

The ultimate pushback came from German Chancellor Angela Merkel
through her spokesman. Quote, "All Germans know the history of the
murderous race mania of the Nazis that led to the break with the
civilization that was the Holocaust. We know that responsibility for this
crime against humanity is German and very much our own."

Bear in mind, Netanyahu`s comments were made against the backdrop of
series of ghastly killings and reprisal killings between Palestinians and
Israelis. The comments were also made just hours before Netanyahu`s trip
to Germany where he tried to walk-back those remarks, saying, quote, "I had
no intention of absolving Hitler from his diabolical responsibility for the
annihilation of European Jews. Hitler was responsible for the Final
Solution -- the extermination of 6 million Jews. He made the decision."

But according to an Israeli paper, Netanyahu also said the purpose of
his anecdote about the Palestinian leader in question was to highlight the
long-standing existence of Palestinian incitement against Jews.

And so, in his rush to create the most monstrous rhetorical enemy he
could for his present political purposes, history was just collateral



REPORTER: You`ve dealt with the Freedom Caucus for a long time. So
what do you think the chances are that they will acquiesce to Paul Ryan`s
demands, or requests as he puts them.

JOHN BOEHNER, (R) HOUSE SPEAKER: Listen, I think Paul Ryan would make
a great speaker, but this decision is up to the members. I thought last
night went very well, and hopefully, by the end of the we`ll have a


HAYES: John Boehner`s right. The decision on whether Paul Ryan will
agree to run for one of the most powerful constitutional offices in the
United States is up to the house members, especially the members who make
up the Freedom Caucus, the group of roughly 40 hard-line Republicans who
essentially pushed Boehner into early retirement.

Last night Paul Ryan announced his willingness to serve as speaker in
a somewhat strange announcement, if a set of conditions are met. Those
conditioning, which are lengthy, included an endorsement from the Freedom
Caucus and all major GOP caucuses, restrictions on time he would spend away
from his family -- he has three young children -- a change to the house
rules that would make it harder to call a vote to oust a speaker.

At least ten of those Freedom Caucus members are none too pleased,
like North Carolina Representative Walter Jones.


is, I
didn`t know what the event was tonight. If I knew it was a Paul Ryan rally
for speaker of the house, I wouldn`t be here.

Fox News reportedly tweeted that congressman Tim Huelskamp of Kansas
says that Ryan set up unacceptable conditions.

And today, Representative Matt Salmon of Arizona, perhaps sounded the
most skeptical of Ryan`s conditions, telling The Hill, quote, and I`m
quoting directly , "it`s like interviewing a maid for a job and she says, I
don`t clean
windows, I don`t do floors, I don`t do beds. These are the hours I`ll work.
It`s rubbing a lot of people the wrong way."

Ryan met with Freedom Caucus members this afternoon behind closed
doors. To win their endorsement, Ryan would need the support of at least
80% of the group`s 40 members.

Moments ago, Freedom Caucus member Raul Labrador said that while the
majority of the caucus supports Ryan, there are not enough votes for a
formal endorsement.


Freedom Caucus has to agree to support Paul Ryan. A supermajority. There
was not an agreement on the preconditions, and we`re going to continue to
work to change what`s happening in the house.

That`s why this is not an endorsement. it`s a super majority, but --

REPORTER: So a supermajority means two thirds?

LABRADOR: No, because it requires an 80% threshold.

The ball is in Paul Ryan`s court, and he`s got to decide whether
that`s sufficient.

This is not about crowning a king. This is about working together and
making sure that every member feels like they`re empowered.


HAYES: Joining me, Representative Michael Burgess, Republican from

Now, congressman, my understanding is you are yourself not a member of
the Freedom Caucus, but you have friends who are?

Chris, thanks for having me on. I always enjoyed being with you.

HAYES: I enjoyed it too.

BURGESS: I realize I`m your favorite Texas Republican, so I
acknowledge that.

HAYES: Let me see if I understand this correctly, because it can get
in the weeds here.

There`s 435 members of the house of representatives.

BURGESS: That`s correct.

HAYES: The current Republican majority, if I`m not mistaken, is 247

BURGESS: That`s right.

HAYES: So we`re down to 247, because despite the speaker, right?
Because the majority gets to decide who the speaker is.

There`s a House Freedom Caucus that is 40 members that needs to get to
32 members, if I`m doing this math quickly on the fly correctly, 32 members
to endorse, and there`s somewhere around the threshold of 29 to 30. So,
we`re talking about two or three House Freedom Caucus votes will deny the
endorsement, which will mean that Paul Ryan will not be speaker.

Is that correct?

BURGESS: You will have to ask the individuals involved. My
understanding was the requirement was that there be an endorsement by the
Tuesday Group, the Republican Study Committee, and the House Freedom

I`m a member of the Tuesday group, I`m a member of the Republican
Study Committee, I`m a member of the Texas delegation, obviously, and Paul
is meeting with us in Texas tomorrow morning. So, we`ll see where all that

People around here, they`re good vote counters, and they generally can
tell the way things are going to go.

HAYES: So, what was your reaction? From the outside, and I have no
dog in this fight for a variety of obvious reasons.

The whole thing looked to me like watching two people talk themselves
into a relationship, they clearly should not be in, that is going to
clearly end in tears later on.

Paul Ryan doesn`t seem to want this job.

BURGESS: No, he does not.

HAYES: No. So why -- isn`t this a bad idea for this person to take
this job when he clearly doesn`t want it?

BURGESS: Chris, I`ve lost you. Hold on for a minute.

HAYES: You got me back there, congressman?

BURGESS: I`m sorry. I`m back with you.

HAYES: He doesn`t want the job.

BURGESS: I`ve lost the audio.

HAYES: We may have to take one second to see if he can test his
I could spit out my theory of why this was a terrible idea.

I mean, basically Paul Ryan`s basically said, I don`t want the job,
members of the House Freedom Caucus, who are essentially holding hostage
the entire house Republican party, has said they`re not that thrilled about
them. We went through the count of ten of them who have expressed their
reservations about him.

Ultimately, the structural conditions that have produced the, I think
it`s fair to say, failed speakership in many ways of John Boehner are going
to carry over to Paul Ryan, no matter how charismatic, how well liked, how
affable, bright and industrious, fellow members of his caucus may think he

We have it back?

So congressman, why is this not a terrible idea, if Paul Ryan doesn`t
want it and some influential people in that caucus don`t want him?

BURGESS: Well, Paul has a national stature, having been our vice
presidential nominee in 2012.

I think many people look to Representative Ryan as perhaps that figure
with national stature that can bring some unity to the conference.

It`s a tall order. I don`t know whether he can do that, and as he as
stressed time and time again, he has his dream job right now.

He`s the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, he`s looking
forward to rewriting the tax code with a Republican president next year, so
in many ways he has only down side from taking on this job.

At the same time, he recognizes his responsibility to the country, and
my understanding is he came to a decision sometime this past week that, if
conference wanted him, he would serve in that capacity.

HAYES: And you would support him? You would vote for him for speaker?

BURGESS: Well, again, he`s coming to meet with the Texas delegation
tomorrow morning. I`m anxious to hear what he has to say about it, a couple
of things, but I`ve always had a lot of regard and affection for
Representative Ryan.

Back in 2010, I was one of the 13 people who endorsed his pathway to
prosperity, when many people in my leadership told me not to do that.

I thought it was a fairly bold statement to get out there and say, we
are going to reform things from tax code to entitlement. And I was ready to
go into the trenches with him.

HAYES: All right. Congressman Burgess, thank you very much.

Paul Ryan has given the House Freedom Caucus until Friday to decide if
they will officially back him.

Meanwhile, today John Boehner said that he`s scheduled the house GOP
leadership elections for a week from today, with the floor vote for speaker
of the house slated for the following day, October 29. Which gives
Republicans a narrow window to settle on their candidate if Paul Ryan does
not vote.

At this moment, here`s what we know. The Freedom Caucus has reported
that they have a supermajority in place to support him, but not enough to
actually formally endorse him.

And joining me now is Representative Charlie Dent, Republican from

Do you understand what played out with the House Freedom Caucus? Is
this a no-go on Paul Ryan or a go?

remains to be seen. Paul Ryan said yesterday that he wanted three
particular groups within the House Republican Conference to endorse him.

The Tuesday group and the Republican Main Street members, which I`m a
cochair of the Tuesday group, the Republican Study committee, as well as
the Freedom Caucus.

It sounds as if, from what I just heard on your show, that they have
not endorsed them, but there seems to be some support.

The question for Paul Ryan, to me, is not whether or not he can win
the speaker`s chair. I think he can do it. The real question is what does
he do once he wins? That`s the issue. That we have to change the
underlying governing and political dynamic that got us into this situation.

Paul Ryan is a really smart guy. I support him. He knows, he knows,
that the first thing he`s going to have to do is work on a debt ceiling
agreement, he`s going to have to work on a budget agreement, and an omnibus
appropriation bill, transportation bill.

And we know all of these measures are going to require some level of
bipartisan collaboration and cooperation. That is a fact.

Now, if Paul does those things, I suspect some of the members who were
critical of John Boehner and Kevin McCarthy will also be critical of Paul
and may try to undermine him. So, that`s my fear for Paul. And that`s why
Paul has been somewhat guarded or hesitant in wanting to accept this

So, we need to hear from Paul Ryan to see how he feels about this
decision of the freedom caucus.

I don`t know how he`ll take it.

HAYES: Can I get your response to that Matt Salmon quote about how
you`re try to hire a maid and the maid will only work certain hours. I
found that such a strange metaphor for so many reasons. I mean, number one,
we`re talking about speaker of the house of the United States.

People talking about this job in this way that just seems completely
ahistorical. This is a job for, I think it`s safe to say, hundreds of years
in our republic, people have done anything in their power to attain.
Suddenly, things are so dysfunctional that he`s comparing it to a low paid
service job?

DENT: Well, I find it ironic that some of the members who represent a
minority of the House Republican Conference have made demands on the
speaker candidates, but when Paul Ryan, who is running for speaker, makes
demands on the members, those same members find it troubling.

So, you can`t have it both ways, and I`m also concerned, too, that a
small minority members of our conference on the one hand wouldn`t have veto
power over who should be our next speaker.


DENT: Yet at the same time, they are insisting that we enforce the
Hastert Rule, which is really not a rule, but the notion that a majority of
the majority should vote for legislation on the floor. So, on the one hand
they want Hastert Rule enforced on legislation, but they want to maintain
the majority presence of a veto over the speaker. You really can`t have it
both ways.

HAYES: That`s a excellent point.

Congressman Charlie Dent, thanks for your time tonight.

DENT: Thank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, why Bernie Sanders thinks its important EXXON
should be held accountable for the alleged climate change fraud.

Stay with us.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where are we? When are we?

CHRISTOPHER LOOYD, ACTOR: We`re descending toward Hill Valley,
California, at 4:29 pm, on Wednesday, October 21st, 2015.

MICHEAL J. FOX, ACTOR: 2015? You mean we`re in the future?


HAYES: Well, there are no flying cars, self-drying jackets or
hoverboards, real hoverboards, just to be clear. Today we learned one huge
part of Back to the Future is spot on, and particularly relevant right now.

Screenwriter Bob Gale told The Daily Beast that casino hotel tycoon,
Biff Tannen was based on none other than Donald Trump. Asked about the
uncanny resemblance to Trump, he specifically cited a scene where Biff
stands in front of paintings of himself.

Gale says of Trump, we thought about it when we made the movie. Are
you kidding?

What the film makers could not have known is that in 2015, Trump would
parlay his real estate power into political power, just like Biff did.


THOMAS WILSON, ACTOR: Just want to say one thing -- god bless

great again.


HAYES: Fortunately, in the real 2015, America has not turned into the
dystopian wasteland that Biff presides over in the movie. Well, at least
not yet.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Proponents of the global warming theory say that
levels of greenhouse gases, especially Co2, are causing world temperatures
to rise and burning fossil fuels is the reason, but scientific evidence
remains inconclusive as to whether human activities affect the global


HAYES: More or less the party line at EXXON throughout the `90s and
beyond, but last week a blockbuster new report from the Pulitzer Prize
winning Inside Climate News shows the company had a different approach to
climate change years earlier.

You see, as far back as the 1970s EXXON`s own scientists were
researching and drawing conclusions about the relationship between fossil
fuels and rise in temperatures.

One expert reportedly telling the company`s management committee in
1977, there is general scientific agreement, the most likely manner in
which mankind
is influencing the global climate is through carbon dioxide release from
the burning of fossil fuels.

Now, according to Inside Climate News, EXXON later curtailed its
on carbon dioxide toward the end of the 1980`s, and instead, this has been
widely documented, started funneling money into groups, like the American
Petroleum Institute, and the misleadingly titled Global Climate Coalition.

They did that to spread denial and doubt about manmade climate change.

In a recent interview with public radio show, On the Media, a
spokesperson for EXXON Mobil disputed the new report, and insisted his
company does not bankroll
climate denial.

RICHARD KEIL, EXXON MOBILE: We don`t fund those groups. And as the
science has emerged and become clearer, we`re more committed than ever to
researching this important topic.

BOB GARFIELD, ON THE MEDIA: We don`t fund them or we didn`t fund
them? You got out of the funding business in 2009 or some such, but for 20
years before that --

KEIL: I`m going to finish my thought here, Bob.

GARFIELD: Please clarify this for me. Are not funding or did not fund

KEIL: We are not funding.

GARFIELD: Okay. So who cares?

HAYES: I love Bob.

Coming up, the presidential candidate who is now calling the
Department of
Justice to look into what EXXON knew, Bernie Sanders joins me next.


HAYES: Bernie Sander just wrote a letter to Attorney General Loretta
Lynch, calling for the Department of Justice task force to investigate oil
and gas giant EXXON Mobil.

A short time ago I got a chance to speak to the senator and ask him


suggests that way back in the 1970s, EXXON`s scientists did studies and
told the leadership of EXXON that climate change was real and potentially
very, very dangerous. That`s what they told them.

EXXON took in this information and then proceed to spend tens of
millions of dollars on organizations whose job in life was to deny the
reality of climate change.

If all of that is true, that happens to be against the law.

HAYES: But why can`t -- that just seems like doing a terrible thing,
but why would that be against the law? If you said, yeah, we know this
thing is true, and we`re going to pay money to --

SANDERS: That is a violation of racketeering legislation. It is very
similar to what the tobacco industry was convicted of, and why they paid a
huge settlement.

It wasn`t that they were selling a product that caused cancer and
killed people, it was that they lied.

They had evidence within the industry to say their product was causing
serious health problems. What did they do? They went public, as you know,
and said, no, I`m Dr. Jones, smoking cigarettes is great for you. They
lied. That`s the crime here.

If it is true, and that`s what we want the attorney general and a task
force to investigation, they are breaking the law.

HAYES: Obviously a U.S. senator can`t -- the criminal justice system
works in an independent fashion for a reason, right? So, you`re asking for
a task force to essentially have a preliminary investigation, as opposed to
reaching some --

SANDERS: And here`s the significance and the importance of this,

Look, I happen to believe, obviously, that climate change is real, it
is one of the great planetary crises that we face. The science is the
community is virtually ours.

But when you have people like the Koch brothers and EXXON Mobile
today, spending huge amounts of money trying to deny that reality, it slows
up the entire world from aggressively addressing what is an international

This is serious stuff.

HAYES: Do you anticipate we`re going to see a lot of fossil fuel
dollars flowing into this next election?

SANDERS: Do I anticipate that? Let me guess. Koch brothers are on
record as saying they will spend in 900 million dollars in this campaign

They make most of their money through fossil fuel. And the other big
energy companies certainly will not be far behind.

And here`s something I want to point out.

When you look at a Republican party today, which is reactionary in so
many areas, but on this particular area, in many cases, most of these guys
deny the reality of climate change, or they say we`re not sure.

How do you think that happens? It happens because the Republican party
is significantly funded by the Koch brothers and the big energy companies.
And the day after some Republican gets up there and says, you know, I read
this stuff here, I think climate change is real, we`ve got to do something,
their funding is gone, and they`ll be primaried.

HAYES: It`s interesting, because I was listening to Rolling Stone
author, Tim Dickinson, who just wrote a piece about the House Freedom
Caucus. And, one of the things he actually pointed out is that the House
Freedom Caucus is opposed to some of the big funders of the Republican
party on certain issues, some of the trade stuff, they have made some noise

But, one place where they`re really aligned is on fossil fuels.
There`s really just a shocking amount of unanimity there.

SANDERS: I`m trying to think where is the exception to that rule, but
this is what I would 99% guarantee to you, that any Republican who said
climate change is real, we have to take bold action to transform our energy
system, that person would be primaried by big energy money and likely

HAYES: Lindsey Graham has obviously sort of managed to survive,
although he`s not doing particularly well in the polls.

Do you think that essentially the warm is turning on the power? You`ve
been on Capitol Hill, now, for several decades. You`re not from a state
like Kentucky, right, where they really have kind of a death grip.

Do you think their power is ebbing in any way?

SANDERS: I think public consciousness is growing that climate change
is real. People are seeing it with their own eyes. They`re seeing it in
California with the droughts, they`re seeing it in the southwest and other
areas in terms of forest fires, which are worse and more numerous than used
to be the case. They`re seeing it in a heat wave in Pakistan. They`re
seeing it with their own eyes, and people are saying, yeah, we better do
something about it.

HAYES: But you`ve spent a career talking to voters where they are,
and when -- it occurs to me part of the problem is you`re talking to
someone in Iowa, in a diner, who is watching jobs leave their town. Is this
something that comes up when you`re doing -- when you`re doing campaign
events? Is this front of mind for

SANDERS: I think the issue of climate change is on the minds of a lot
more people than the pundits think. I think it`s growing.

I think people are just very, very concerned. The evidence,
scientifically, and what people are saying is so real, people are saying,
hey, I`m worried
about my kids and grandchildren and what kind of planet they will be living

HAYES: You do hear that?

SANDERS: Absolutely. Absolutely. Younger people absolutely, I think
you`re seeing it more with older people as well.

HAYES: All right, Bernie Sanders, Senator from Vermont, presidential
candidate, Brooklyn native, here in his home city of New York.

Great to have you.

SANDERS: Thank you very much.


HAYES: That is All In for this evening. A reminder, it is a big day
on Capitol tomorrow as the Democratic front runner, Hillary Clinton
testifies to the House Benghazi committee. We`ll be covering that live all
day here on MSNBC.

And then, this Friday, Hillary Clinton will be sitting down for an
exclusive interview with Rachel Maddow, that will be her first interview
since Joe Biden decided not to run, and her first after her testimony to
the Benghazi committee. You do not want to miss that. I, myself, am really
looking forward to that. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now. Good
evening, Rachel.


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