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'The Rachel Maddow Show' for Friday, October 23rd, 2015

Read the transcript to the Friday show

Show: THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW
Date: October 23, 2015
Guest: Hillary Clinton


RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: I came back up to my office as soon as we
were done taping the interview. They said, Chris Hayes watched it here, he
was watching it in the room. I said, did he like exclaim or make any
noises?

They said, when she said the word pathetic, he went ooh. And I said
we`ve got to use that in the news. That`s good. Pathetic, coming up.

Thank you, man. Appreciate it.

CHRIS HAYES, "ALL IN" HOST: All right.

MADDOW: And thanks to you at home for watching this hour.

There are two things we`re keyed into this Friday night.

One is Hurricane Patricia bearing down on the Pacific coast of Mexico.
It is the strongest hurricane ever recorded. It had sustained winds of
around 200 miles an hour recently, which is almost unimaginable. Those are
winds like a strong tornado.

But in a storm many, many, many, many times more massive. As the
storm approached landfall in Jalisco state, it did weaken slightly as it
has made landfall. This is still just a mammoth storm, and the worry now,
of course, is evacuations in that part of Mexico happened early enough and
completely enough, that there will not be significant loss of life in the
face of this huge storm. In addition to the winds, the storm could bring
as much as a foot and a half or more of rainfall in some areas. So, this
is a big one.

The other thing we are keyed into this Friday night is that I have
just had my first interview ever with Hillary Clinton, the Democratic
presidential front-runner. I should confess that I did shake her hand once
and I said hello once at a State Department function years ago where I had
no idea what I was doing there.

But apart from that "hello, madam secretary" and shaking her hand,
today was the first time that I have ever met Secretary Clinton and it is
certainly the first time I have ever had the chance to interview her. And
this is the first interview with anyone that she has had since her marathon
11-hour Benghazi hearing testimony yesterday. It`s also the first
interview that she has done since Vice President Biden decided that he
would not run against her for the Democratic nomination for president.

Without further ado, here is Secretary Clinton today on whether Joe
Biden might have actually made the more enviable decision when it comes to
the run for the presidency this year.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MADDOW: Vice President Biden has said that he is not running for
president. You talked a lot about your friendship with him and your
respect for me. You`ve given him a lot of space to make this decision on
his own without any pressure from you. Now that he`s said that he is not
running, are you jealous?

(LAUGHTER)

CLINTON: That`s a really good question.

MADDOW: I mean he doesn`t have to go through all this --

CLINTON: And he doesn`t have to go through it. Well, bless his
heart.

I -- look, I am a huge Joe Biden admirer, friend, a former colleague,
and I know this was an excruciating decision in a time of just such pain
and grief for him and his family. He is liberated and I don`t think
history is done with him. There is a lot for him and the President to keep
doing in the next year and a half.

And I want to build on the progress that they are leaving behind. I
feel very strongly about that. I want to go further, but I think the real
point of this election is whether or not the Republicans are going to be
able to turn the clock back and rip away the progress that has been made.
So I, I want to support what the President and the Vice President have
accomplished.

MADDOW: In terms of the Obama legacy and the way that Vice President
has talked, even if he`s saying he`s not going to run, talks about needing
to champion the Obama legacy -- obviously, there`s some specific policies
on which you have some differences with the President.

CLINTON: Right.

MADDOW: But I want to ask you about one part of President Obama`s
approach to being President that I think there would be a difference
between him and you. Has he been naive in expecting Republicans to work
with him? When they -- they really didn`t work with him on anything. They
explicitly did not work with him even on things they agreed with him on
because it was more important to them to try to stop him than to even
achieve their own policy aims.

CLINTON: Uh-huh.

MADDOW: Should he have expected that? Would you expect that?

CLINTON: Well, I think, when you are dealing with the other party in
Washington, it`s that old saying -- you know, you hope for the best, you
prepare for the worst.

Of course, you want to have the opportunity to work across party
lines. I did that when I was a senator. I did it when I was secretary of
state. But you need about -- you know, six, seven, eight, 10 scenarios if
something doesn`t go your way.

I think what the president was doing when he came into office, number
one, was coping with the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression,
and the very people who had supported President Bush in voting for TARP --
the Republicans and the Democrats -- were then asked to support the
president on the Recovery Act and the stimulus.

And it was Democrats, predominantly, again, who supported him, and I
was there at the end of the Bush administration. And I -- I know that I
was trying to exercise my -- you know, responsibility as a senator, and I
voted for TARP.

And then to see people who did something when the Republicans were in
the White House who wouldn`t do it when we had a new Democratic president -
- although we were losing 800,000 jobs a month and the auto industry was on
the brink of total collapse -- gives you an idea of what we`re up against.
Because there is this ideological purity test that I think, unfortunately,
too many Republicans who know better are being subjected to.

So I will go anywhere, talk to anybody, anytime to try to find common
ground, to try to achieve our national objective.

But I`ll also stand my ground, and I think it`s a constant balance
about where one begins and the other one ends. And I think the president
was absolutely sincere. I mean, I spent a lot of time with him in the
first four years, and he was absolutely sincere.

And he was often -- you know, just bewildered that the evidence was
clear, the results were going to flow, and the Republicans would privately
say, "Yes, you`re right, but I can`t," or "I won`t."

So, we`ve got to break the stranglehold that the extremist views in
the Republican Party have on too many people who are otherwise sensible and
try to get them back into the pragmatic problem-solving that should be the
hallmark of the relationship between the president and the Congress.

MADDOW: I think a lot of people hoped that would be true -- both
Democrats and Republicans, and people who maybe see themselves as neither,
but hope for constructive policy.

The question is how to do that. I mean, you don`t have the
nomination, and there was already a sitting Republican member of Congress
from Alabama, Mo Brooks, who says that he is ready to impeach you on the
first day of your presidency.

(LAUGHTER)

CLINTON: Isn`t that pathetic? It`s just laughable!

MADDOW: It`s amazing.

CLINTON: It`s so totally ridiculous.

MADDOW: But that is where the Republican Party is.

CLINTON: That is where they are.

MADDOW: That`s probably good politics in Republican politics for him
to say that.

CLINTON: Well, it`s -- it perhaps is good politics with the -- you
know, the most intense, extreme part of their base. I guess that is, or
otherwise why would they be doing it?

And I think we have to -- you know, really try to build a -- a larger
base of our own that cuts across all kinds of geographic and political
gradations.

You know, let`s try to have a -- you know, from a center-right to a
center-left understanding about certain things, and then let`s have a good
old-fashioned argument and fight about progressive values versus the
alternative.

But there are some things, like not defaulting on our debt, that
should not even be the subject of a political argument. It is just beyond
my understanding how anybody, despite how extreme he might be, would think
it would be in America`s interest to default on our debt.

And so for -- whether it`s the president or me or anyone else, you
just have to keep trying to build the case as best you can, and look for
ways to bring -- you know, those who are responsible over to the right
side.

That`s one of the reasons why we`re hoping that -- you know, before
Speaker Boehner departs the speakership, there`ll be the vote on the debt
limit.

MADDOW: On the issue of finding a path between the left and the
right, finding what`s doable and what`s not doable, I`m a true-blue
liberal, and I`m allowed to say that. OK?

(LAUGHTER)

But one of the things that I have been struck by -- and during the
Obama administration -- is that a lot of the -- really, the civil rights
achievements of this administration have actually been undoing things that
were done in the Clinton administration.

Whether it was "don`t ask, don`t tell" or the Defense of Marriage Act,
or the -- you know, tough-on-crime mandatory sentences. Former President
Clinton is progressive on all those issues now.

CLINTON: Right.

MADDOW: But the policies that he signed -- for politically practical
reasons -- in the `90s have taken -- you know, the political mural --
miracle of Barack Obama`s election and a decade of progressive activism to
unwind those things to get back to zero.

CLINTON: Right.

MADDOW: And so, I know that you and President Clinton are different
people, and I know that -- I don`t -- you`re not responsible for what he
did as president. But is your approach to civil rights issues the same as
his, or is it different?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLINTON: I have wanted to ask Hillary Clinton that question for years
now. Her answer about the setbacks to some major progressive issues during
the bill Clinton presidency. She has a long very specific really
interesting answer to that. And that`s next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: It`s my -- my take on it is slightly different.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is done.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

MADDOW: President Obama has had a pretty ambitious civil rights
agenda as president. But that specific bill signing from 2010, that was
really one of the -- that was one of the clean breaks. That was him
signing into law the repeal of the "don`t ask, don`t tell" policy which
banned gay people from serving openly in the U.S. military. That was a big
leap forward. That was a clean break from a terrible law signed by former
President Bill Clinton.

And that`s one example. But there`s more than one issue, more than
one big issue on which the big civil rights advance of this president was
undoing something done by the last Democratic president, which is awkward
if you`re a Democrat and you want to say that Democrats are the good guys
on civil rights.

Well, I asked Hillary Clinton about that tonight. She has a really
interesting explanation and answer for that. And I think in her answer
here she`s also about to make some news in terms of telling us about policy
conversations that she was part of, that she was in the room for, that she
contributed to. And these were things we did not previously know she had
been involved in them.

And that`s next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: Because I was in on some of those discussions.

(END VIDEO CLP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MADDOW: But one of the things that I have been struck by -- and
during the Obama administration -- is that a lot of the -- really, the
civil rights achievements of this administration have actually been undoing
things that were done in the Clinton administration.

Whether it was "don`t ask, don`t tell" or the Defense of Marriage Act,
or the -- you know, tough-on-crime mandatory sentences. Former President
Clinton is progressive on all those issues now.

CLINTON: Right.

MADDOW: But the policies that he signed -- for politically practical
reasons -- in the `90s have taken -- you know, the political mural --
miracle of Barack Obama`s election and a decade of progressive activism to
unwind those things to get back to zero.

CLINTON: Right.

MADDOW: And so, I know that you and President Clinton are different
people, and I know that -- I don`t -- you`re not responsible for what he
did as president. But is your approach to civil rights issues the same as
his, or is it different?

CLINTON: Well, I -- I want to say a word about the -- the issues you
mentioned, because my take on it is slightly different.

On Defense of Marriage, I think what my husband believed -- and there
was certainly evidence to support it -- is that there was enough political
momentum to amend the Constitution of the United States of America, and
that there had to be some way to stop that.

And there wasn`t any rational argument -- because I was in on some of
those discussions, on both "don`t ask, don`t tell" and on -- on DOMA, where
both the president, his advisers and, occasionally I would -- you know,
chime in and talk about, "you can`t be serious. You can`t be serious."

But they were. And so, in a lot of ways, DOMA was a line that was
drawn that was to prevent going further.

MADDOW: It was a defensive action?

CLINTON: It was a defensive action. The culture rapidly changed so
that now what was totally anathema to political forces -- they have ceded.
They no longer are fighting, except on a local level and a rear-guard
action. And with the U.S. Supreme Court decision, it`s settled.

"Don`t ask, don`t tell" is something that -- you know, Bill promised
during the `92 campaign to let gays serve openly in the military. And it`s
what he intended to do.

MADDOW: Firestorm. Terrible firestorm.

CLINTON: And then -- yes. Oh my gosh! It was the most astonishing
overreaction, but -- by the military, by the Congress. I remember being --
you know, on the edge of one of those conversations, and -- and so, "don`t
ask, don`t tell," again, became a defensive line.

So, I`m not in any way excusing them. I`m explaining them.

MADDOW: Yes.

CLINTON: And the same with the crime bill, which was a result of a
lot of reaction -- particularly from poor communities, communities of color
-- to the horrific crime rates of the 1980s. And there was just a
consensus across every community that something had to be done.

That went too far. First speech I gave in this campaign was about
mass incarceration, and about reform of policing practices. And I think
that sometimes, as a leader in a democracy, you are confronted with two bad
choices.

And it is not an easy position to be in, and you have to try to think,
OK, what is the least bad choice and how do I try to cabin this off from
having worse consequences?

My take on this, now, is we`re going to have an election that is truly
going to be, at bottom, about fundamental rights. A woman`s right to
choose, defending Planned Parenthood, marriage equality, taking on the
continuing discrimination against the LGBT community. You can get married
on Saturday, you can get fired on Monday. Voting rights -- the most
profound citizenship rights that we have being blocked and undermined at
every turn.

We are going to have a very vigorous debate in this election, because
the Republicans are all on record as trying to reverse and rip away the
progress that has occurred.

A lot of it, because of decisions that the court has finally made --
both for good and for bad. I mean, the marriage equality decision for
good, the terrible gutting of the Voting Rights Act for bad, and the local
activity in states against a woman`s right to choose and defunding Planned
Parenthood.

This is going to be at the core of this stem election.

MADDOW: Part of the political way that we got there, is that the
Democratic Party has been doing terrible in state politics. Something like
70 percent of state legislatures that are controlled by Republicans now.

CLINTON: Right, right.

MADDOW: The number of states where the governor and the governorship
and both Houses of the Legislature is controlled by the Republicans is now
25 states.

CLINTON: Right.

MADDOW: The number of states in a similar situation, the Democratic
Party is, I think, seven.

I mean, down-ticket races have been going really south for the
Democratic Party for these last few cycles in a way that has huge policy
consequences.

CLINTON: Right.

MADDOW: Are you able to leave the Democratic Party in a way that will
get people other than yourself elected?

CLINTON: Well, that`s my goal. And I have said that repeatedly
across the country to the Democratic National Committee, to local elected
officials.

I think it`s part of what I not only want to do, but I must do. You
see the problems that come when Democrats don`t show up, when we don`t have
a pipeline of candidates starting, you know, in counties, commissions and
school boards all the way up to state legislators and governors. And it
has really hurt us because we don`t pay attention to midterm elections.

You know, Democrats are very much personality-driven in a lot of our
politics. That`s -- there`s that great old line that Democrats like to
fall in love and Republicans just fall in line.

MADDOW: Right.

CLINTON: Well, there`s a lot of truth to that, and we have, then,
just decimated. And you look at what more can happen that will hurt us --
we`re going to have another census not so long from now.

We need a real focus on recruiting, and raising money for and having
some united message that people will actually listen to, to help build
parties from the local level up again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MADDOW: Hillary Clinton in our interview today talking about one of
the lesser acknowledged parts of what it means to be a presidential
candidate. She`s saying she will do as leader of the Democratic Party is
fix this -- fix the failure of Democrats to win in the states, 25 states
now in complete Republican control. Only seven states in total Democratic
control.

Secretary Clinton also there talking about her involvement in and her
views on some controversial policies from her husband`s time in office,
including the federal gay marriage ban and "don`t ask, don`t tell" and the
crime bill.

I think Secretary Clinton is probably right about some of those
policies functioning as blocks at the time against even more draconian
approaches from the Republicans, but still those policies themselves did do
a lot of harm for a very long time. And, of course, neither Hillary
Clinton nor Barack Obama decided they were even in support of something
like marriage equality until long after President Obama was already in
office.

Well, next, we`ll find out about what Secretary Clinton thought about
her marathon testimony before the Benghazi committee yesterday and how she
coped with the endurance factor. That`s when we come back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: What does a person do after 11 hours of testimony? You`re
the only human being I know of on Earth who`s done 11 straight hours. What
did you do after?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MADDOW: What does a person do after 11 hours of testimony?

(LAUGHTER)

MADDOW: You`re the only human being I know of on Earth that has done
11 straight hours. What did you do after?

CLINTON: Well, I had my whole team come over to my house and we sat
around eating Indian food and drinking wine and beer. That`s what we did.
It was great.

MADDOW: And was it like, "Let`s just talk about TV, let`s not talk
about what just happened?"

CLINTON: Yes. Yes, we were all talking about sports, TV shows. It
was great just to have that chance to number one, thank them because they
did a terrific job, you know, kind of being there behind me and getting me
ready, and then, you know, just talk about what we`re going to do next.

MADDOW: There`s no -- there`s no rests at this point in the campaign
trail. I will say looking back though at the last night, it was
interesting. Chairman Gowdy was asked right after the committee hearing
ended, he said what -- was asked, "What new information was gleaned from
those 11 hours with you?" And he responded, "Um," then he paused for
several seconds, and then he said, "I don`t that she testified that much
differently today than the previous times she testified."

So, he`s basically saying, we got no new information here.

Does that -- does that make you glad you did it or does that make you
feel like it was a waste of time?

CLINTON: I said I would do it and I did it because if there is
anything new, which is unlikely after the eight prior investigations that
have been held, we should know about it because the point is, what are we
going to do to both honor the people that we lost and try to make sure this
doesn`t happen again?

And as I said yesterday, we have had horrific incidents. We lost so
many Americans in Beirut, first a bombing of our embassy, then a bombing of
the marine barracks. We lost Americans in the al Qaeda bombings in Kenya
and Tanzania. We had more than a hundred attacks on our facilities around
the world since 2001.

So, we live in a complicated, dangerous world, and so, we do want to
have a good conversation where people come to the table ready to actually
learn about what we can do. I`m afraid that`s, you know, not necessarily
what this particular committee is doing, but we have learned a lot from our
previous investigations, and I`m certainly, you know, committed to doing
all I can to make sure we do save lives.

MADDOW: One of the things that -- I agree with you that I don`t think
it was a very constructive process in terms of getting at security issue at
diplomatic outposts.

CLINTON: Right, right.

MADDOW: I do think that the Republicans on the committee were right
yesterday when they highlighted as a policy matter that Libya is in a bad
situation --

CLINTON: Mm-hmm.

MADDOW: -- since the Libyan civil war, since Gadhafi was toppled and
then killed four years ago this week. I can now imagine the toppling of
Assad in Syria, whether or not he`s propped up by the Russians. But like
in Libya, I cannot imagine what happens after. And it worries me.

Is it a good idea to help topple Assad when there isn`t a government
in waiting, when we don`t have any idea what would happen next?

CLINTON: Well, let me just say a few words about Libya because I
think that if we are going to draw some conclusions from that, I`d like to
say a few words about it.

One of the hallmarks of Gadhafi`s dictatorship is that hollow out all
the institutions. But there was a very dedicated core of people who were
committed to a democratic path forward, and it`s often overlooked.

Libya held elections within a year, less than a year after the fall of
Gadhafi. They were free, they were fair, they elected moderates. They
tried to form a government. They were making progress and they had very
little institutional support to do that.

There were a number of efforts made, certainly by our government and
others, to help them. It was almost as though they didn`t know what to ask
for and how to translate any help into changes on the ground. But there
still is a very committed group of people who are trying now to work out
the differences. And the differences between the east and the west of the
country have been very prominent from the beginning.

MADDOW: In some ways, it`s an artificial country.

CLINTON: In some ways, it is, like a lot of places in Africa and the
Middle East where the lines were drawn during colonial times.

MADDOW: Mm-hmm.

CLINTON: But next door in Tunisia, a much smaller country of course
but with far fewer resources than Libya, they have struggled and worked so
hard to find ways to accommodate the different points of view, and they
just got the Nobel Prize for having done that.

So I`m not prepared to give up on Libya. I think we have to do more
to invest in Libya.

I think what happened in, in Syria in many ways is a different story
but with perhaps an even worse outcome. Because Assad, when there was the
uprising that was legitimate, it wasn`t terrorism, it wasn`t extremists, it
was pharmacists and professors and students saying, wait, we`re done. We
have to have more freedom. There were so many other ways for him to go
because Syria did have institutional structures there. They were
oppressive on a lot of the people in the country, but they did exist.

Now, though, we have territory that is controlled by, not just ISIS,
but other terrorist groups. We have Assad, with the help of the Iranians
and the Russians, trying to hang on to the territory that, you know, goes
from Damascus up to the coast. And, unless there is some kind of agreement
which very well might result in either a confederation or a dismantling
along geographic and tribal or religious lines inside Syria, it`s hard to
see how there can be anything that would be constructive after Assad.

But I am encouraged that Secretary Kerry is meeting with the Russians,
the Turks, the Saudis and others, to see if there isn`t some sort of a
political way forward.

MADDOW: You differ with the current administration, with the Obama
administration, now on having said you support a no-fly zone --

CLINTON: Mm-hmm.

MADDOW: -- in Syria.

If, say, you`re President and that no-fly zone is in effect, and a
Russian jet flies into that no-fly zone and they refuse warnings to leave -
-

CLINTON: Mm-hmm.

MADDOW: -- do you give the order to shoot down a Russian jet?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MADDOW: Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton saying in this
first interview after her Benghazi testimony that it is important to learn
everything about what went wrong but that is not what yesterday`s Benghazi
hearing was about. Of course, we`ll get her answer to that question about
giving the order to shoot down a Russian jet. We`ll get that answer right
after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: You`re President and that no-fly zone is in effect, and a
Russian jet flies into that no-fly zone and they refuse warnings to leave -
-

CLINTON: Mm-hmm.

MADDOW: -- do you give the order to shoot down a Russian jet?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MADDOW: You differ with the current administration, with the Obama
administration, now on having said you support a no-fly zone --

CLINTON: Mm-hmm.

MADDOW: -- in Syria.

If, say, you`re President and that no-fly zone is in effect, and a
Russian jet flies into that no-fly zone and they refuse warnings to leave -
-

CLINTON: Mm-hmm.

MADDOW: -- do you give the order to shoot down a Russian jet?

CLINTON: Well, that`s a hypothetical that I think there are many
steps you have to go through and decisions you have to make before you even
get to that. NATO did have to warn the Russians because they were invading
Turkish air space.

MADDOW: And they were escorted out, right?

CLINTON: A NATO ally. They were escorted out.

Part of the reason I have proposed a no-fly zone as a coalition
effort, not a United States solo effort, is to have conversations with the
Russians at the table. Because the goal of any no-fly zone is not only to
provide safe areas for Syrians so they don`t have to be fleeing or
continued to be bombed by Assad, supported now by the Russians, but to get
some leverage to get everybody at the table, to try to create as much as a
cease-fire, including the Assad forces, with the Russians and the Iranians
as well.

One of the ways that you do that diplomatically is you put out some
ideas like what -- we`re going to talk about a no-fly zone and, in fact, I
thought it was interesting, you know, on the other side of the argument
here, Putin is now saying, OK, now we can talk diplomatically because we`re
changing the situation on the ground, and therefore we should come and have
some diplomatic consultations.

I think the no-fly zone, which the Turks have asked for for a long
time and humanitarian organizations have, is a device as well as a
potential outcome to see how we get people to the table. And the Russians
would be certainly warned. There`s been military discussions now to, as I
say, deconflict air space.

So, I think it would be highly unlikely, if this were done in the
right way --

MADDOW: But ultimately a no-fly zone is an anti-aircraft proposition.

CLINTON: It is, it is. But that doesn`t mean you shoot at every
aircraft that might violate it the first or second time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MADDOW: Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton supports a no-fly
zone in Syria as do many of the Republican candidates for president,
interestingly. President Obama does not support that. But that was her
explaining why she supports it and how it might work.

And now next, we get to the part where she quotes from a Girl Scout
song.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: You know, I am like the old girl scout song, you know, make
new friends but keep the old.

(GIRL SCOUT SONG)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MADDOW: We`ve got more ahead of my interview tonight with Hillary
Clinton including some territory that I will admit was a little
uncomfortable to broach in which the secretary said she had read about
before but nobody had ever put it to her before.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: Do you hear that criticism? Does it make sense? I hope it
doesn`t sound mean.

CLINTON: No, it doesn`t sound mean. And you know, I haven`t heard it
directly but I`ve read it, so that I know that it`s not -- it`s not
something that, you know, is just a throwaway line.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: Warning: Sensitive subject ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MADDOW: One policy question that I think the Republicans are raising
or talking about amongst themselves hasn`t really burst into a general
election conversation yet, but I am genuinely shocked by it, which is that
it`s becoming more fashionable in Republican circles to talk about
abolishing the V.A., privatizing the V.A., getting rid of it.

CLINTON: Right.

MADDOW: Throwing veterans onto the mercies of the for-profit
healthcare system.

The reason they are able to propose something that radical is because
the problems at the VA seem so intractable. If I had been running
Republican campaign against President Obama last year, I would have run it
entirely on the V.A. -- a bureaucracy, a bloated big government program
that can`t be fixed and let`s do right by our veterans.

Do you -- do you have any new ideas for trying to fix it? I mean --
there -- you can`t find a person in politics who doesn`t say we shouldn`t
do right by our veterans. But for some reason, this can`t get fixed fast
enough.

CLINTON: Yes, and I don`t understand that. You know, I don`t
understand why we have such a problem, because there have been a number of
surveys of veterans. And overall, veterans who do get treated are
satisfied with their treatment. Now --

MADDOW: Much more so than people in the regular --

(CROSSTALK)

CLINTON: That`s exactly right.

MADDOW: Yes. Right.

CLINTON: Now, nobody would believe that from the coverage that you
see, and the constant berating of the V.A. that comes from the Republicans,
in part in pursuit of this ideological agenda that they have.

MADDOW: But in part because there has been real scandal.

CLINTON: There has been. And -- but it`s not been as widespread as
it has been made out to be.

Now, I do think that some of the reforms that were adopted last year
should be given a chance to work. If there is a waiting period that is
just unacceptable, you should be able to, in a sense, get the opportunity
to go out, have a private physician take care of you, but at the cost of
the V.A.

But I think it goes deeper than that, because if you look at not only
V.A. health care, but the backlog on disability determinations, there`s
something not working within the bureaucracy.

And I have said I would like to literally appoint a SWAT team. I
mean, bring in people and just tackle the disability, have an ongoing
review of the care that is being given, do more to make sure that every
V.A. hospital is delivering care to the highest standard of the community,
because, unfortunately, some are doing a lot better job than others are.

And I think that the current new leadership that President Obama did
put in seems to be trying to tackle a lot of this. I just don`t know if
they have enough help, and here`s a perfect example of the way that the
Republicans try to have it both ways.

They try to create a downward spiral. Don`t fund it to the extent
that it needs to be funded, because we want it to fail so then we can argue
for privatization.

They still want to privatize Medicare. They still want to do away
with Social Security. And these are fights we`ve been having for 70, 80
years now.

So, we cannot grow weary in the face of these ideological assaults on
basic fundamental services, whether it`s the V.A., Medicare, Social
Security. But we have to be more creative about trying to fix the problems
that are the legitimate concern, so that we can try to stymie the
Republican assault.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MADDOW: "So we can try to stymie the Republican assault. We cannot
grow weary in the face of these ideological assaults."

I love what she says kind of in all candor -- yes, I don`t understand
that. Can we clip that? Can we roll that little bit again?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: But for some reason, this can`t get fixed fast enough.

CLINTON: Yes, and I don`t understand that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton showing some
frustration tonight over the ongoing trouble at the V.A. and how that
trouble has been turned into a way to attack the V.A.

When we come back, we`ve got my last exchange with her -- the
aforementioned uncomfortable exchange and also some perspective on why it
might have been some uncomfortable. Some perspective from a reporter who
has been covering Secretary Clinton for decades.

That`s next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: Do you hear that criticism? Does it make sense? I hope it
doesn`t sound mean.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MADDOW: Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton sat yesterday for
11 hours. So some of the most grueling single witness testimony we`ve seen
in D.C. in years. Officially, of course, that hearing was an inquiry into
the attack on the U.S. diplomatic outpost in Benghazi, Libya, in 2012. But
in reality, a lot of it was just about a guy named Sidney.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got a lot of e-mails from Sidney Blumenthal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Madam Secretary, Mr. Blumenthal wrote you 150 e-
mails.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From Sidney Blumenthal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An e-mail from Sidney Blumenthal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you were asked about Sidney Blumenthal --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was an e-mail from Mr. Blumenthal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Blumenthal had some e-mails you that didn`t.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Before you give Mr. Blumenthal too much credit --

This is an e-mail from Blumenthal --

Here`s another Blumenthal e-mail.

Blumenthal e-mails.

Blumenthal`s e-mails.

Mr. Blumenthal`s e-mails.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: Mr. Blumenthal`s, what now?

Sidney Blumenthal has Secretary Clinton`s e-mail address and sent her
e-mails. Everybody freak out!

For the 99.9999 percent of the people who live in the normal world,
Sidney Blumenthal is about as real and threatening a figure as Charlie
Brown`s great pumpkin.

For the record, Mr. Blumenthal is a real person. He first met Bill
and Hillary Clinton in the `80s when he as a journalist covered Bill
Clinton`s early run for governor of Arkansas. He joined the Bill Clinton
presidential administration in the second term. He worked for Hillary
Clinton when she ran for president in 2008. And clearly, Mr. Blumenthal
remains a friend of the Clintons today.

When you have been a friend of the Clintons for a long time and you
have been through wars together, you`ve been through partisan wars and the
war of impeachment and the wars of personal scandal and the wars of
ideology and dynasty, when you`ve been with them that long, you become part
of the Clinton story -- through thick and thin, for better or worse, for
past and probably for future.

And for Republicans this week at that mammoth Benghazi hearing, who
was friends enough with Hillary Clinton to e-mail her when other people did
not e-mail her? That became a bizarre side show, to that hearing on that
serious matter.

But even people who know that Sid Blumenthal has nothing to do with
Benghazi still worry that all the old `90s era Clinton warriors are going
to come back again with all their baggage to a second Clinton
administration. So, I asked Secretary Clinton about that tonight. It was
a question I kind of dreaded asking.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MADDOW: I have a question for you about having been in public life
for a long time.

There`s a book written about the Obama family by Jodi Kantor recently,
in which Michelle Obama was quoted, saying that one of their new rules when
they got to Washington was no new friends.

And that resonates with me, because I feel like -- I -- I see that in
other people who become well known for other reasons. They decide -- you
know, once you`re well known, you don`t want to bring new people into your
life in a close, personal way, because they`ll probably want to use you for
something.

You`ve been in public life for so long that -- I have to bring this
around to a Sidney Blumenthal section, and I hope you`ll forgive me. I
realize he was not your primary adviser on Libya.

(LAUGHTER)

MADDOW: I do not hold you responsible for his e-mails to you.

(LAUGHTER)

MADDOW: But I -- I also feel like, maybe by necessity, you and your
husband have had to hold on to friends for a very long time, in part
because it doesn`t make sense to bring on a lot of new ones.

And a lot of the friends that you`ve got that are old Washington hands
have really been through the wars with you. And it has hardened them, and
turned some of them into really, really aggressive partisans.

And that is one thing that I worry about, about the prospect of you
becoming president. About Sidney Blumenthal and Lanny Davis and Mark Penn
and all of these guys that you guys have known and worked with for all this
time thinking that they`ve got -- they`re back at the table, because
they`re ready to go fight your wars again, and then that means we can`t
move on from all the old battles.

CLINTON: Yes. No --

MADDOW: You -- do you hear that phrase -- does it make sense? I hope
it doesn`t sound mean --

CLINTON: No -- no, it doesn`t sound mean, and -- you know, I -- I
haven`t heard it directly, but I`ve read it, so that -- I know that it`s
not -- it`s not something that -- you know, is just a -- a throwaway line.
I think people raise it.

Well, first of all -- you know, because we`ve been in public life for
so long, we`ve made a lot of new friends over the years.

MADDOW: There`s no "no new friends" rule?

CLINTON: There`s no new friends rule at all, and there certainly is
no new advisers rule, no new ideas rule because Bill -- you know, started
running for political office when we were very young, in our early
thirties. If we had made no new friends, we would have had the friends
we`d had from high school and college.

So, of course, we`ve made a lot of new friends, and I think that`s all
to the good. I`m very grateful that I`ve had a lot of people who have come
into my life. My campaign this time is run by a lot of people that I
didn`t know before I hired them, as well as people that had worked for me
before.

So, I do -- you know, I am like the old Girl Scouts song -- you know,
"make new friends, but keep the old; some are silver, the others are gold."
And I think I have developed a real -- you know, ear for those who are more
aggressive in my defense than they may need to be or should be.

It is hard on your friends. You know, one of my very best friends,
somebody that I communicate with at least every week, if not more so -- I
remember her saying to me one time, "You know, it`s really hard being your
friend, because I take everything so personally."

Well, we`ve been friends since sixth grade. So, yes, she does take
everything so personally. And I do have a lot of my women friends, who are
-- you know -- you know, they see something like yesterday, with eleven
hours, and they`re -- you know, e-mailing me like crazy, like, "Get a
massage."

(LAUGHTER)

"Just take tomorrow off." All of that.

I have great friends, and some of them are known publicly, and some of
them are totally private. But -- I wouldn`t have a "no new friends" rule,
but I would certainly be a little bit -- I take my time to decide -- you
know, is somebody, as you say, just trying to get in -- to sit at the
table, or is somebody genuinely interested in what I`m interested in.

MADDOW: One of my friends who knows your family told me that what I
should ask you today -- now, I didn`t plan on doing this, but I now realize
I should -- told me I should ask you what your mom would have said to you
at the end of those eleven hours, last night, when you wrapped out.

What would she have thought?

CLINTON: I think she would have been appalled at the whole spectacle,
but she would have been concerned about me getting home, because she lived
with us in the last years of her life, and she -- you know, she`d be
waiting up, and she`d want to know how I was, and whether I`d had anything
to eat during the day.

But I think at the end of it, she would have -- you know, breathed a
big sigh of relief, because she -- she was someone who lived a really tough
life, and she knows that everybody gets knocked down in life, and the
question is whether you get back up, or whether you allow yourself to be --
you know, not only knocked down, but knocked out. And that`s the way she
raised me.

So, she would not have been surprised by my sitting there and
absorbing what I did yesterday. Because that`s what she would have
expected it.

MADDOW: Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, presidential candidate.
First time we`ve ever spoken. I really appreciate you being willing to do
this. I know you have a million options, and I hope you`ll come back.
Thank you.

CLINTON: I`d like to. Thanks, Rachel.

MADDOW: Good luck. Thanks.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MADDOW: Joining us now is NBC News chief foreign affairs
correspondent Andrea Mitchell, who has covered both Bill and Hillary
Clintons since the late `90s.

Andrea, thank you so much for being here late on a Friday. I
appreciate it.

ANDREA MITCHELL, NBC NEWS CHIEF FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT:
Absolutely. That was fascinating.

MADDOW: Well, I wanted to talk to you about this, specifically
because I feel like you can contextualize what she said there about kind of
Clinton world, about her friends. I thought it was a very uncomfortable
question. I felt just as a person a little bit uncomfortable asking about
her friends being sort of creepy seeming.

What do you make about the way she responded?

MITCHELL: I think she was trying to absorb it and take it in and
responded indirectly. She`s not going to run away from any of these people
who have been her fierce defenders and attack dogs, frankly. And part of
that is the whole, torturous process of Clinton world, of what they went
through, of that initial 1992 primary in New Hampshire when all the
scandals broke and Hillary Clinton first emerged on the national stage and
was surrounded by the piranhas of the national press corps. And then you
got into Whitewater and the Rose law firm and awful editorials in "The Wall
Street Journal," who killed Webb, who killed Vince Foster and the Webb
Hubbell problem.

So, they had so much to deal with. Some of it their own fault, a lot
of it had to do with the media. And so, they`re so offensive. I felt that
was the reason for the private server, frankly. They won`t acknowledge
that.

So, they`re not going to run away from them. But it is true in this
campaign, she has embraced the Obama people. A lot of that was self-
interest. They were really good at what they did.

But it`s a different campaign headquarters. There`s been friction
along the way. Most recently, a memo released which showed some of her
best advisers now from Obama land, from back eight years ago, talking about
how to campaign against Hillary Clinton.

So, she`s tried to bring it all together, but I don`t think she fully
absorbed that. Her answer on her mother was just extraordinary to me,
because I knew Mrs. Rodham and really admired her and know how important
she was, and just the fact that she talks about her mother a lot now and is
iconic for her. But it is her mother who`s example who really is the
center of her life. It`s her core.

MADDOW: Andrea, on that point, obviously her mom lived with them in
the last years of her life. Her mom, as Secretary Clinton said to me right
here, did have a very tough life -- a very, very tough life.

MITCHELL: Yes.

MADDOW: And we did not hear about that from Hillary Clinton while her
mom was alive. We didn`t hear about it in a political context. She didn`t
make it part of her political biography. But we do hear that now. Why do
you think that changed?

MITCHELL: I`m not sure, frankly, but it was the central metaphor of
her announcement speech on Roosevelt Island.

And I do recall a very touching interview after Mrs. Rodham died with
Chelsea, talking about what her grandmother meant to her. And I think that
through all of the turmoil of the `90s that having her mother there was
just so important. Also in Chelsea`s growing up and for the Clinton
family, that she was sort of the central core and a neutral space.

MADDOW: NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent and a host of
"ANDREA MITCHELL REPORTS", weekdays at noon here on MSNBC -- Andrea, again,
thank you for late on a Friday, in particular, and after such a long week.
Thank you for being here.

MITCHELL: Congratulations on a fascinating interview.

MADDOW: Thank you very much. Thank you. I did it. I got my first
ever Clinton interview, with anybody named Clinton. I never even
interviewed George Clinton. But we did it.

That does it for us tonight. We`ll see you again on Monday.

Now, it`s time for you to pay a visit to the warden who is very angry
with you.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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