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All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, October 29th, 2015

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Date: October 29, 2015
Guest: Charlie Pierce, Amy Davidson, Betsy Woodruff, Jesse McIntosh, Joy


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

the substantive issues people care about?


HAYES: Republican candidates attack at the shark tank debate.


HAYES: We`ll break down the predators and the prey.

Jersey what you`re doing is called rude. So --

HAYES: Then the student becomes the teacher.

convinced you that attacking me is going to help you.

HAYES: After a rough debate night, can Jeb get his campaign off life

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I wish I`d gotten questions on
-- I got to answer questions on things that are on the minds of people.

HAYES: Plus, the Democratic response.

better off watching the World Series because the debate in my view was a
swing and a miss.

HAYES: And fact-checking the candidates, including Ben Carson`s
complicated relationship with a supplement company.


DEBATE MODERATOR: To be fair, you were on the home page of their Web
site with the logo over your shoulder.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

The day after a raucous third GOP debate, Ben Carson is launching a
revolt against the Republican National Committee, calling for major changes
to the format and rules of future debates.


CARSON: Specific things we`re looking for are first of all moderators
who are interested in actually getting the facts and not in gotcha


HAYES: Yet another sign of the unraveling of the party`s
institutional center, Carson said his campaign has already reached out to
Donald Trump and Carly Fiorina, the two other candidates with no government
experience, and they`re planning to talk to representatives of all the
other presidential hopefuls who were on the main stage last night. Trump
for his part is now pushing to get rid of neutral moderators altogether.


TRUMP: We`re having a Republican debate. Maybe every moderator
should show that they vote Republican. Because why should we have -- why
should we have these people that hate everything we stand for? And I won`t
mention his name. But the questions were so nasty.


HAYES: Trying to get ahead of the criticism last night, RNC Chairman
Reince Priebus attempted to deflect attention away from the fact that it
was he who is the one who set up the debates, calling out hosts CNBC in a
statement, quote, "The performance by CNBC moderators was extremely
disappointing and did a disservice to their network, our candidates, and
voters. CNBC should be ashamed of how this debate was handled."

And even as the candidates challenged and talked over each other,
there was one subject where the whole field seemed to be on the same page.
Everything is the media`s fault.


RUBIO: In 2008, Barack Obama missed 60 percent or 70 percent of his
votes and the same newspaper endorsed him again. So, this is another
example of the double standard that exists in this country between the
mainstream media and the conservative movement.

The Democrats have the ultimate super PAC. It`s called the mainstream

CHRISTIE: Wait a second. We have $19 trillion in debt. We have
people out of work. We have is and al Qaeda attacking us. And we`re
talking about fantasy football?


CRUZ: The questions that have been asked so far in this debate
illustrate why the American people don`t trust the media.


This is not a cage match. And you look at the questions. Donald
Trump, are you a comic book villain? Ben Carson, can you do math? John
Kasich, will you insult two people over here? Marco Rubio, why don`t you
resign? Jeb Bush, why have your numbers fallen?

How about talking about the substantive issues people care about?



HAYES: While that may have seemed like a spontaneous outpouring
fueled by the crowd`s response, there were plenty of indications before the
debate it was more like a preordained strategy. For example, this tweet
from Donald Trump yesterday morning, "After a great evening and packed
auditorium in Iowa, I am now in Colorado looking forward to what I am sure
will be a very unfair debate." OK.

Or a pretty revealing blind item in "Politico`s" playbook yesterday
that a lot of people missed. Look at this. "Look for the candidates to
push back harder on the moderators than in previous debates. One of the
debate preppers told us I think you`re going to hear a lot of, well, we
didn`t see any of this tit for tat that time in the Democrat debate."

Something else that was foretold long ago before the candidates took
the stage last night, Jeb Bush`s attack on Marco Rubio over his record-
setting absences in the Senate. Bush surrogates including Jeb Bush have
been hitting Rubio for weeks calling on him to step down. And then before
the debate last night, we had a cryptic little teaser from Republican
strategy exist frequent guest on the show Rick Wilson, "man, oh man, the
dumb preplanned move of a certain campaign is about to make in the big
debate is campaign-ending stupid."

Turns out Wilson may have been exactly right.


BUSH: I mean, literally, the Senate -- what is, it like a French work
week? You get like three days where you have to show up? You can
campaign. Or just resign and let someone else take the job.

RUBIO: Well, it`s interesting. Over the last several weeks I`ve
listened to Jeb as he walked around the country and said you`re modeling
your campaign after John McCain, that you`re going to launch a furious
comeback the way he did, by fighting hard in New Hampshire and places like
that, carrying your own bag at the airport.

You know how many votes John McCain missed when he was carrying out
that furious comeback you`re now modeling under?


RUBIO: Well, let me tell you I don`t remember you ever complaining
about John McCain`s vote record. The only reason why you`re doing it now
is because we`re running for the same position and someone has convinced
you that attacking me is going to help you.


HAYES: Joining me now, Charles Pierce, writer at large for "Esquire",
Amy Davidson, staff writer for "The New Yorker", Josh Barro, MSNBC
contributor for the Upshot at "The New York Times."

I got -- where to start? There are so many thoughts.

I mean, I guess let`s start with this idea. It did seem to me like a
coordinated strategy. Obviously, the crowd was feeding into it, and we`ve
had moments like this before. There`s the infamous John King moment in the
CNN debate where he asked Newt Gingrich about should allegations about when
his marriage was breaking up and you know, Gingrich tore him a new one and
the crowd applauded. You can`t go wrong basically attacking the media.

What did you make of it?

JOSH BARRO, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, but the thing is it looks like a
coordinated strategy but a primary campaign is literally a zero sum game.
Only one of these people can win the nomination. So, attacking the media
cannot be good for all of them and I think it actually isn`t. I think
Carly Fiorina actually benefits from these fairly hostile debate formats
because she is better and quicker on her feet with these sorts of questions
than the other candidates.

You may have noticed before this debate, there was controversy over
how long it would be, whether there would be opening statements.


BARRO: Donald Trump and Ben Carson both wanted a more structured
format where they would have more ability to give their own answers rather
than answer hostile questions.

Fiorina`s campaign was out there saying, no, let`s let the debate go
long, I`m not afraid to take questions. So, I think this is good for Ted
Cruz. I think Marco Rubio played to this very well.

HAYES: Right. The people that are better at this sort of thing,
which is sparring with essentially interlocutors who are coming at you with
questions which, you know, are sometimes tough or hostile or gotcha,
whatever you want to call them, but that`s kind of what the deal is.

BARRO: Right.

AMY DAVIDSON, THE NEW YORKER: Let`s look at the definition of a
hostile question. You`ve got John King asking Newt Gingrich about his
personal life, which is complicated.

But in this case they had said to Ben Carson, you have all these
numbers in your tax plan, they don`t add up, help us with the math. That`s
-- when did that become a hostile question, to say, I don`t get it, these
numbers are not making any sense. That`s what a debate is supposed to be.

HAYES: I totally agree about that exchange, right?

And part of the issue here, Charlie, is the whole thing gets painted
with this broad brush of bias which frankly I find somewhat preposterous,
particularly in this context.

But part of it, Charlie, also strikes me as there are too many people
on stage to manage a traditional debate. So, everyone`s frustrated at the
end of these things. They were frustrated at the first two also. Their
candidates are not getting enough time, they`re not making statements,
there`s all these questions.

But, you know, you`ve got 10 people. What are you supposed to do?

CHARLIE PIERCE, ESQUIRE: Well, first of all, if they are going to
rejigger the process I would suggest to Ben Carson and the people he`s
meeting with that they have the next one in a sandbox. Because, God, what
a bunch of unruly nasty children we had.

But basically, Chris, I think it`s really easy to be a Republican
presidential candidate. The answer to every question is liberal media.

Are you a snake -- do you associate with snake oil salesmen? Liberal
media. What about the budget deal? Liberal media. What about the fact
you that don`t do your day job? Liberal media.

That`s simple. That`s great. And plus once you lay truth aside and
don`t consider a factor in what you say, it becomes an even simpler job.

DAVIDSON: You know, you raise a good point that`s related to that.
When you -- the stage is so crowded, one function of these debates is
supposed to be to figure out who has things that are disqualifying about

HAYES: Right.

DAVIDSON: And maybe that`s where the gotcha questions come in or the
questions about people`s finances or their basic policies. You know,
what`s going to get you off the stage? What`s going to be clear to the
voters, OK, I know who this guy is and it`s not who I want to vote for.

If you`re not going to ask any of those questions, you`re going to
have ten guys yelling at each other, ten guys and one woman yelling at each
other for who knows how long.

BARRO: I want to say, though, I think Donald Trump`s idea that you
should have Republican moderators for a Republican debate is not crazy, or
at least that should be done in addition to this sort of debate format,
because I think -- you know, the way -- I don`t think that the moderators
were unfair at all last night but I do think the media comes at this from a
perspective of trying to represent the electorate overall.

And I think there`s something to be said for the idea that this is the
primary among Republicans, why not have Rush Limbaugh moderate --

HAYES: So, actually, Ted Cruz today -- I think there`s something to
this. I genuinely do. Ted Cruz was on Bret Baier, he recommended a debate
moderated by Sean Hannity, Marc Levin and Rush Limbaugh, and I thought to
myself, I`d love to see that. Like I think America should see that.

DAVIDSON: Two things. We had a debate moderated by FOX where the
media was also attacked.


DAVIDSON: But something like the gerrymandering that we`ve seen where
you have legislators who only answer to people increasingly who already
agree with them, and that`s one reason we see this extremism in Congress.
And I wonder if it would have the same rhetorical effect if you`re only
debating in front of moderators who also agreed with your party. What are
we going to end up with?

HAYES: Well, Ezra -- Charlie, Ezra Klein made this point I thought
was interesting. He basically said people are -- they angry but partly
they`re angry because the policies of Republican Party have gotten so
detach from reality, the problem for Republicans substantive questions
about their policy proposals end up sounding like hostile attacks.

And, you know, I think there`s something to that particularly when
you`re talking about tax math, right?

PIERCE: Well, I mean, Ben Carson`s tax plan is apparently written in
clouds of cotton candy supported by bailing wire. Marco Rubio right at the
end, lets slip that he wants to have no taxes at all on investment income.
You know, out in Malibu, Mitt Romney felt a warm breeze from the mountains
and didn`t know why.

Carly Fiorina essentially said there`s no constitutional basis either
for the minimum wage or for Social Security.

Yes. I mean, those are not gotcha questions. When you come to Ben
Carson and say, you know, how is your 10 percent tithing attitude toward
taxation going to enable us to have a federal government, if his answer to
that is, you`re wrong and the math will add up and liberal media, then he
hasn`t answered that question.

HAYES: Well, and here was something interesting. Kasich, who was --
I saw this great iPhone video today, someone -- anytime the attention was
on someone else, he was like pacing around his podium. It`s really

I think he was just frustrated by it, frankly. I understand also all
of them are getting ultimately, two, four, five, six, seven minutes, right?
So they`re spending a lot of time watching. It`s frustrating.

Here he is on Carson and Trump`s tax fantasy. Take a listen.


would put us trillions and trillions of dollars in debt.

I actually have a plan. I`m the only one on this stage that has a
plan that would create jobs, cut taxes, balance the budget, and can get it
done because I`m realistic.

You just don`t make promises like this. Why don`t we just give a
chicken in every pot while we`re coming up with these fantasy tax schemes?
Just cleaning up. Where are you going to clean it up?


HAYES: And I thought this was interesting that afterwards he was fine
with the debate. Part of the frustration I think is like OK, you want to
talk policy then let`s talk policy. But that is not what has been
essentially valued thus far in the Republican Party.

BARRO: There was a hilarious thing, though, about Kasich as truth
teller which is that he has his own tax plan which he has his own
projections for. He says I`m going to cut taxes massively and by 2025, tax
revenues will be $250 billion higher a year than if I had never cut taxes.

There`s this dispute in the Republican primary about how fantastical
you`re allowed to be.

HAYES: Right.

BARRO: Basically, it`s like you have Jeb and you have Kasich that are
with fairly fantastical tax plans and they`re being topped by these people.
Donald Trump just comes out and says I`ll do the same but bigger, and I`ll
make us so rich -- no, but that`s fantastical. We`d agreed we would be
only this fantastical and now you`re over the line.


HAYES: Do you think Carson and Trump are going to be able, Amy, to
actually -- I mean, are they going to affect what we see next?

DAVIDSON: There are already all of these forums of this and that
where the candidates do speak to the converted. Are they going to be able
to push the next debate in their direction? I just wonder what that would

You know, if the debate where the moderators did a great job and asked
a lot of substantive questions something they would like better? And I
don`t think it perhaps would be.

What we might have are non-debates, just more for forums and
presentations and that`s not going to help figure out who will be the

HAYES: Charlie, I think a Sean Hannity, Marc Levin, Rush Limbaugh
hosted debate is actually a great idea personally.

PIERCE: I want them all on the panel at the same time.

HAYES: Exactly.

PIERCE: Because you will then have a critical mass of bullpucky that
may well end the universe as we know it.

BARRO: I`m sure a number of these campaigns would hate that idea.
Because it`s not like that would be a softball debate.

HAYES: No, no.


HAYES: It would be a different kind of hardball. Exactly. I would
love to see Marco Rubio up there getting nailed on his Gang of Eight stuff
on immigration from the right. That would be interesting.

Charlie Pierce, Amy Davidson, and Josh Barro, thank you all.

BARRO: Thank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, Jeb Bush is looking pretty desperate after
another debate performance falls flat. Now, he`s left assuring people no,
he really isn`t going to drop out.

Plus, fact-checking the front-runners. We will look at questionable
claims by Donald Trump and Ben Carson. Democratic candidates had a third
chance to measure up their possible opponent. We`ll see what they thought
about their debate.

Those stories and more, ahead.



SEN. HARRY REID (D), NEVADA: If a person coming before this body
wanted to be a cabinet officer, he couldn`t be if he had the -- he did the
same refusal Mitt Romney does about tax returns. So, the word`s out that
he hasn`t paid any taxes for ten years. Let him prove that he has paid
taxes, because he hasn`t.


HAYES: That was Senator Harry Reid back in 2012 making the later
debunked claim on the record in the well of the Senate that Mitt Romney
hadn`t paid his taxes in a decade.

Now, the chief Republican troller is at it again. One day after a
Florida newspaper called on Senator Marco Rubio to resign for missing votes
than any other senator this year, Reid echoed that call, telling
"Politico", "Rubio hates the Senate. Why should the taxpayers of this
country and people of Florida put up with having only one senator? It
doesn`t seem fair to me."

Reid added in an interview with "The Huffington Post", "Rubio reminds
me of John Edwards, not because of any personal stuff. Edwards was so
fixed on becoming a national figure his Senate service was basically over.
That`s what I see in Marco Rubio."

Moments ago, he told NBC News, "The taxpayers in this country and
Florida are being ripped off by him."



BUSH: Marco, when you signed up for this, this was a six-year term
and you should be showing up to work. I mean, literally, the Senate, what
is it, like a French work week? You get like three days where you have to
show up? You can campaign. Or just resign and let someone else take the

RUBIO: Well, it`s interesting. Over the last few weeks I`ve looked
into Jeb as he walked around the country and said you`re modeling your
campaign after John McCain, that you`re going to launch a furious comeback
the way he did, by fighting hard in New Hampshire and places like that,
carrying your own bag at the airport.

You know how many votes John McCain missed when he was carrying out
that furious comeback that you`re now modeling?


RUBIO: Jeb, I don`t remember -- well, let me tell you, I don`t
remember you ever complaining about John McCain`s vote record. The only
reason you`re doing it now is because we`re running for the same position
and someone`s convinced you that attacking you is going to help you.

BUSH: No, I`ve been --

RUBIO: Here`s the bottom line, I`m not --


HAYES: All right. Going to last night`s debate, everyone knew Jeb
Bush needed to do well. Despite his massive institutional advantages, Bush
has been languishing in the polls and just last week his campaign was
forced to slash payroll costs by 40 percent amid rising donor concerns
about his performance.

It is fair to say that Bush did not change the narrative last night.
Instead he faced headlines today like "Yeah, Bush is probably toast", and
"Jeb Bush`s campaign on life support after rough debate."

Bush spent today trying to put a good face on what happened. In a
conference call this afternoon with donors, he vowed to improve as a
candidate. And in a perhaps unintentional bit of messaging, he spoke in
front of a "Jeb can fix it" sign at a campaign stop in New Hampshire where
he insisted all is not lost.


REPORTER: What do you make of the headlines that say your campaign is
on life support?

BUSH: It`s not on life support. We have the most money. We have the
greatest organization. We`re doing fine.

REPORTER: What do you say to your loyalists who fear that you botched
it last night and they`re starting to walk away? How do you --

BUSH: They`re not walking away. They`re not walking away. This is
just -- look, there`s eight more debates. There`s ample time to do exactly
what candidates do. The end is not near. Memo to file. Life is good.


HAYES: Joining me now from New London, New Hampshire, where Jeb Bush
just wrapped up a town hall this evening is MSNBC political correspondent
Kasie Hunt.

And, Kasie, the question is, what was the mood like at that event

KASIE HUNT, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Chris, this event -- I`ve been
to several of these town halls with Bush actually here in New Hampshire
over the course of the months that he`s been campaigning. You could
definitely tell in that room tonight that he has had a rough couple of
days. He, you know, all of the things that we`ve come to see on the debate
stage where he struggled, sometimes stumbling over words, sometimes getting
down into the weeds. We saw a little bit more of that tonight than we
would have otherwise.

But I will say he had a pretty good crowd. The fire marshal was
pretty concerned that this building was going to fill up. The crowd was
very friendly to him. People will not asking him about his terrible debate
performance or asking him yes was falling in the polls. People were
focused on policy, a lot of the same types of questions that you would
expect to hear at any kind of town hall like this.

But I will say, as a candidate, you were starting to see all of those
things that could have come across as weaknesses. You know, he has a
pretty sarcastic sense of humor. At one point, he joked about that fantasy
football question and said, well, it was like -- and then he rolled his
eyes. Which is something he does pretty often, but in this particular
case, it came across as some evidence that things are not going so well,

HAYES: Kasie, what is the mindset of the folks around Bush? I wonder
how much they think this is all -- I mean, I remember the Obama folks in
2007, 2008 were like don`t read "Politico", don`t watch cable news, don`t
keep your pulse on this stuff, ignore, stick to the plan. But it`s
impossible not to let it get to you.

HUNT: I think it is.

Also, I will say the Obama campaign was a little bit different than
other campaigns because when they made those pitches to reporters, and I
remember sitting in plenty of background polling meetings, they had numbers
to back up the things they were saying. They were making assertions, but
they could prove to you with information and it turned out they were right
even though a lot of us were skeptical.

That`s not really the case here. We actually just saw a leaked
strategy memo basically the extended version of what donors saw in Houston
over the weekend. And if you look at one sheet that`s full of data on
Iowa, they made 1,200 contacts and they think that they would need --
excuse me, there are 1,200 identified supporters according to that chart
and they need 23,000-plus votes to win.

So, right now, I don`t think that the information that they have is
necessarily backing up what they`re saying in public.

Now, I could be wrong about that and they could be coming forward with
something. They certainly have built an operation that`s more focused on
the long term than a lot of these other Republican campaigns, but that`s
turned into a liability because they were essentially building something to
win a general election while ignoring what was going on in the primary.

HAYES: All right. Kasie Hunt, thank you very much.

Joining me now, MSNBC host and political correspondent Steve Kornacki.

So I get very suspicious of conventional wisdom, particularly in
politics, and this as we cover the horse race and the narrative, he`s
leading and he`s leading -- no, Hillary Clinton, she`s dead, oh, amazing,
rising like a phoenix from the ashes.

So, what -- is everyone overreacting? Are donors overreacting? Is
the press overreacting when they talk about the dire straits Jeb Bush is

the other way. The original conventional wisdom is now being corrected,
because the original conventional wisdom was to treat Jeb Bush like George
W. Bush in 2000. George W. Bush stepped onto the scene in 2000, the shock
and awe term you heard for Jeb, his expectation at start of this year,
that`s what George w. did.

And at this point in the 2000 cycle in the fall of 1999, it`s amazing,
if you go back and look at the polls, in the Republican primaries George W.
Bush was polling at 60 percent. His nearest competitor was John McCain
down at 12 percent. And you look at it right now, Jeb Bush is at about 7

So, we are finally now seeing, it`s been a slow-moving train wreck
here, but you`ve seen it over the last nine months, the big difference
between Jeb Bush and George W. Bush, but also between the year 2000 and the
year 2016 in the Republican Party.

HAYES: Part of that also I think has to do with the degree of power
the, quote, "establishment" has, the degree to which the base was kind of
willing to take signals from its leaders, which has really changed in --

KORNACKI: It`s the ultimate undoing. People say oh, it`s Bush
fatigue, oh, it`s the Iraq war. The ultimate undoing of Jeb Bush is the
legacy of the George W. Bush era because George W. Bush became -- the
reason they were willing to fall into line for George W. Bush was
Republicans in 2000 the mindset was we want our own Bill Clinton. He beat
us in the `96 election. He beat us in impeachment. He keeps beating us,
we can`t figure it out, let`s get our own guy.

That`s what compassionate conservatism was all about, the idea that
you can be conservative and still be pro-government. And at the end of the
Bush years, when Barack Obama became president, the lesson the conservative
movement took was we should never, ever, ever try to be like the other
party again.

That`s what the Tea Party grew up out of. That`s what that anti-
establishment mindset came from. And so, now, Jeb Bush comes along and
today`s Republican Party says absolutely not.

HAYES: You know, Peter Beinart had a piece today thought was good
where he said basically this is kind of a triumph for democracy. It
shouldn`t be the case that literally the smoke-filled room, right? A bunch
of donors get together and say I wrote a check for your brother, I wrote a
check for your dad, I`ll write you a check, and look we`ve got all the
talent and all the money now I`m your nominee, right?

The folks in the Republican Party should decide who their nominee is
going to be.

KORNACKI: Sure. I keep hearing, well, we still have time, there`s
still plenty of time between now and Iowa and New Hampshire. I`m skeptical
he`ll be able to rise to it, Jeb will be able to rise to the moment, but if
he does he has to go earn it right now. And that`s what you have to do in
democracy. You have to go make the case to the voters in your party, that
it`s not just that it`s your turn, it`s that they should vote four.

You`ve got nine other options, 12 other options, whatever it is, he
has to go out and make that case and convince them.

HAYES: What did you -- that moment last night, what -- that moment
was so jarring to watch. I mean, someone compared it to like a Mortal
Kombat like finish him moment, where Rubio had just clearly -- they`d
workshopped that response for weeks. I mean, it was watching someone just
turn up and just get absolutely destroyed.

KORNACKI: It was so many things were going on there at once. One is
just Rubio is good at this. Rubio is so good in the off-the-cuff settings.
You`ve got the whole mentor-protege aspect to it.

The fact that it is the mentor who is forced to turn his debate and
launch the attack on the protege, and that specific line that Rubio throws
back at him, it`s somebody convinced you --

HAYES: That was devastating --

KORNACKI: He said it. And then did you notice he pivots. It`s like
he knows he has just landed the blow. He pivots on stage, looks into the
camera, plows right ahead. And Jeb Bush is sitting there, it`s almost like
he`s slack-jawed at the end of that. I don`t even know what to say.

HAYES: Part of has to do with, you know, it does come down, you know,
these are human beings. And some people like conflict and some don`t and
some people are good at staring someone in the face and just absolutely
ripping their throat out and some aren`t.

You know what I mean? And that may be adaptive or not adaptive or
good or not good in terms of your eternal soul or what kind of person you
are to be with but there are some things that campaigns select for.

KORNACKI: It`s Rubio`s reputation too. If you look at his political
career his reputation is if the hard choice means cutting somebody`s legs
off --

HAYES: He will do it. Yes.


HAYES: Steve Kornacki, thank you.


HAYES: Coming up, Paul Ryan is sworn in as speaker of the House and
starts his term with a pretty awkward handshake. We`ll show you that next.


HAYES: John Boehner is no longer speaker of the house. Today
Wisconsin Republican Paul Ryan was elected and sworn in as speaker, taking
over the job
from Boehner, who was drummed out by far right house conservatives.


PAUL RYAN, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: But let`s be frank. The house is
We`re not solving problems. We`re adding to them. And I am not interested
laying blame.

We are not settling scores. We are wiping the slate clean.


HAYES: Ryan and Boehner shared a very public hug as they exchanged
power today.

Take a look at what happened when Democrat Nancy Pelosi, who handed
Ryan the speaker`s gavel, tried to do the same.


is the -- hand this gavel to the speaker of the house, congressman and
Paul Ryan.

[ applause ]

RYAN: Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Nancy.


HAYES: Did you see that? You see what happened there?

Paul Ryan didn`t want to be seen hugging Nancy Pelosi. He went
straight to the handshake because apparently a hug would not play very well
with the base.

As for Boehner, who is giving up not just the speakership but also his
seat in congress, he was his usual emotional self in his good-bye speech,
even holding up a tissue box in an acknowledgment of his propensity for

But in an interview yesterday, Boehner talked frankly about the
conditions that drove him out, citing hundreds of radio hosts trying to
outwrite each other,
who have boosted the ability of a small group of members or some small
outside organizations to stir up antics or mislead people.

On his way out, Boehner made Ryan`s job slightly easier by negotiating
a budget deal that should allow Ryan to avoid some of the most divisive
that Boehner faced, including over the debt limit, at least in the short

But the conditions that`s Boehner referenced, they have not changed at
all. And while Paul Ryan may want to turn the page, he now finds himself in
the exact position as his predecessor, who got so fed up with his
uncontrollable caucus, that one day he finally just woke up and decided to
walk away.


HAYES: The two Republican front-runners who had been dominating the
polls did not, by all accounts, dominate last night`s debate, either in
time or in substance.

But they are both the dominant focus of fact checkers today.


BECKY QUICK, CNBC MODERATOR: You have been very critical of Mark
Zuckerberg of Facebook, who has wanted to increase the number of these H-1

of him.

QUICK: So you`re in favor of increasing --

TRUMP: I have not been at all critical of him.

QUICK: Where did I read this and come up with this, that you were --

TRUMP: Probably -- I don`t know. You people write this stuff, I don`t
know where you --

QUICK: You had talked a little bit about Marco Rubio. I think you
called him Mark
Zuckerberg`s personal senator because he was in favorite of the H-1 --

TRUMP: I never said that. I never said that.

This was an erroneous article the whole way around?

TRUMP: He`s got another gentleman in Florida who happens to be a very
nice guy --

QUICK: My apologies. I`m sorry.

TRUMP: Somebody`s really doing some bad fact check.


HAYES: Now, as to where CNBC`s information came from, after a quick
commercial break, moderator Becky Quick provided some clarification.


QUICK: I found where I read that before. It was from the Donald J. website. And it says -- it says that, again, Mark Zuckerberg`s
personal senator, Marco Rubio, has a bill to triple H-1bs that would
decimate women and minorities.


HAYES: Alright. So the moderator was entirely, 1,000% correct. Trump
was absolutely mistaken.

As for the other front-runner on the stage last night, when Dr. Ben
Carson was asked to explain his involvement with a supplement company
called Mannatech, which had to pay millions of dollars to settle a
deceptive marketing lawsuit,
here`s what he said.


BEN CARSON, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, that`s easy to answer.
I didn`t have an involvement with them. That is total propaganda. And this
is what happens in our society. Total propaganda. I did a couple speeches
for them. I do speeches for other people. They were paid speeches. It is
absolutely absurd to say
that I had any kind of a relationship with them.

Do I take the product? Yes. I think it`s a good product.

CARL QUINTANILLA, CNBC COMMMENTATOR: To be fair, you were on the home
page of their website with the logo over your shoulder --

CARSON: If somebody put me on their home page, they did it without my

QUINTANILLA: Does that not speak to your vetting process, or judgment
in any way --

CARSON: No, it speaks to the fact that I don`t know that it`s going


HAYES: Dr. Ben Carson`s relationship with Mannatech has been well
documented. As Jim Geraghty of the National Review reported in January, for
ten years he interacted with a medical supplement maker accused of false

Carson is even featured praising Mannatech on a video that used to be
featured on the company`s website.

So, as Jim Garaghty of the National Review points out, when it comes
to Ben Carson`s claims on the debate stage last night, quote, "his
declarations that I didn`t have any involvement with them" and "absurd to
say that I had any kind of
relationship with them are just bald-faced lies". That`s conservatives

Today, Ben Carson once again tried to qualify just what his
relationship is with Mannatech.


CARSON: I don`t have any official involvement with them. They don`t
pay me, other than if I give a speech, a paid speech. And I do like the
product. It doesn`t mean that I have any special relationship with them.


HAYES: Joining me now, Betsy Woodruff, politics reporter for The

I thought, Betsy, that moment was just so interesting because that was
one of those moments where the crowd booed and it was, this is unfair, this
is gotcha. But, you know, this is actually something that Jim Garaghty at
the National Review, the conservative National Review, has been reporting

Mannatech was sued by Greg Abbott, currently the very conservative
Republican governor of Texas, for their deceptive advertising when he was

This is not some liberal conspiracy.

BETSY WOODRUFF, THE DAILY BEAST: Absolutely not. I mean, this is
perhaps the
single most historic conservative publication in the United States saying
that what
Ben Carson did was extraordinarily questionable.

It`s worth noting, by the way, that this Mannatech supplement that
Carson touted, that he used his medical credibility to basically praise,
this supplement is mostly aloe vera extract and larch tree bark, and
scientific studies have shown the main impact of glyco-nutrients that they
have is increasing flatulence. Like, that`s what this stuff does.

I mean, good for Ben Carson if it`s a supplement that he likes, but
it`s a totally valid question, why he would use his massive platform and
his medical
credibility to suggest that this helps people.

And one of the really quick things, this is not the first time he`s
touted pseudoscience from the debate stage. Last debate he suggested
parents space out their kids` vaccines, which is, a, scientific nonsense,
and a very, and a species of anti-vax trutherism.

It`s just perplexing.

HAYES: Well, this leads me to the second point, which is I think,
watch these debates and there`s this kind of media consensus that forms,
oh, Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio did really well, and Jeb Bush did poorly.

And what we`ve seen is that there`s a kind of durability to Trump and
Carson, debate after debate, no matter what the performance is.

Do you think we`ll see that change coming out of this debate?

WOODRUFF: I think so. I think one thing national media reporters
often miss is the extent to which Carson`s supporters just tune out of east
coast media narratives about their candidate, and more and more these
supporters are getting
their views and their analysis of the candidate from Ben Carson himself. He
has a massive, incredibly devoted social media following.

One thing that struck me, looking at his Facebook page, was that
shortly before the debate started, he posted a message that was a prayer,
him praying that
the lord would give him counsel and guide him over the course of the

That short post that he put up had more than a quarter million likes,
more than 10,000 comments. Many of those comments were his supporters
writing their own prayers for him.

People who like Ben Carson, love him, they`re committed, and look,
media hubbub about Mannatech or Glyco-nutrients or what have you, doesn`t
impact them.

HAYES: Now that`s different, though. Now, that I think is true of Ben
Carson, who`s got this appeal that is very distinct and focused, and has
this sort of connection with the base.

Donald Trump is different because that appeal seems so based on him
doing outlandish things or saying provocative things or drawing free earned
media, I guess we call it, earned media.

Do you think the lack of that kind of bombasticness and getting caught
in this sort of obvious untruth last night is going to hurt?

WOODRUFF: I don`t think so. I think this is helpful to Ben Carson. I
think his supporters are largely going to be ignoring this Mannatech story.

I thought the most important statement that any of the candidates made
last night was when Ted Cruz said to one of the moderators, your question
is why we cannot trust the media.

I thought that was really telling, not only -- he didn`t say the
liberal media, he didn`t say the mainstream media, he said the media.

HAYES: All of it.

WOODRUFF: And none of the other candidates called him on it, right?

The consensus is that journalists are not trustworthy. We can talk
glyco-nutrients, Mannatech, scams, lawsuits all day. Supporters of Carson
supporters of Trump, probably aren`t going to be swayed by that at all,
which is, it`s an interesting state of affairs.

HAYES: Well then, the question becomes what does -- presumably
there`s a lot of give left in the minds of voters making up their minds,
particularly in the early states.

I do think the closer we get, the more people start to make these
calculations about whether the person could actually be president, although
maybe that`s naive. I guess we`re going to see as time goes on.

WOODRUFF: I feel like every time I`ve made a prediction about what`s
going to happen in this primary, I feel incredibly dopey within 48 hours.

To be frank, I have no idea. Maybe, though, I mean, you would expect
that to
happen. You would expect voters to say okay, let`s get serious, let`s pick
someone who`s electable and conservative.

But I mean, at this point --

HAYES: Who knows?

WOODRUFF: Who even knows?

HAYES: Alright. Betsy Woodruff, thank you very much.

WOODRUFF: Thank you.

HAYES: After last night`s debate, who are Democrats preparing to face
in the general election? Because it`s looking less and less like the once-
favored Jeb

We`ll talk strategies ahead.


HAYES: Today The New York Times called on New Jersey governor Chris
Christie to end his bid for the presidency. The paper`s editorial board,
saying in an op-ed, quote, "New Jersey is in trouble and the governor`s off
pursuing a presidential run
that`s turned out to be nothing more than a vanity project. Mr. Christie`s
numbers are in the basement, and he`s nearly out of campaign cash."

Governor Christie responded by tweeting, "can`t read the article
because I don`t have a subscription, but I can tell you this -- I am not
going anywhere."

Okay, a couple of things.

Number one, governor, you get ten free articles every month, even
without a New York Times subscription. So go ahead and read the article.

Number two, you`re right. You shouldn`t quit your run for the
presidency just because a newspaper editorial board says your campaign is
rubbish. No candidate should. No one has voted yet. It`s a pet peeve of
mine when people try to get other people to quit things. Run for office and
let the voters decide.


TRUMP: Everybody said it couldn`t be done. Everybody said it was
going to be three hours, 3 1/2, including them, and in about two minutes, I
renegotiated it down to two hours so we could get the hell out of here. Not

And I`ll do that with the country. We will make -- we will make
America great again.

And thank you, everybody.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNBC MODERATOR: Just for the record -- just for the
record, the debate was always going to be two hours. Senator Rubio --

TRUMP: That`s not right. That is absolutely not right.


HAYES: The Republican reaction to last night`s debate was largely
contempt and anguish, and the Democratic candidates` reaction is probably
best summed up by
this meme tweeted out by Hillary Clinton.

As a matter of fact, judging from at least one tweet Hillary Clinton
gave her
followers the impression that she was laughing out loud about the debate as
she live texted and shared her thoughts with her followers, saying things
like, quote, "seems to me, ten new candidates, zero new ideas."

Now, on the campaign trail in New Hampshire today, Hillary Clinton
suggested voters would be better served flipping the channel.


better off watching the world series, because the debate, in my view, was a
swing and a miss, and didn`t really further the national conversation that
we need to be having with each other.


HAYES: For his part, Senator Bernie Sanders spent last night taking
questions at a town hall event at George Mason University.

He managed to tweet out a picture of the Republican candidates with
the question, "which one will the billionaire class choose?"

After three Republican debates, Democratic candidates are basically
left with these questions, what will emerge as a sort of consensus
Republican agenda for the Democratic nominee to run against, and which
candidates are they most worried about

We will tackle those questions, next.



TRUMP: But I feel that the gun-free zones and, you know, when you say
that, that`s target practice for the sickos and for the mentally ill. So, I
think gun-free zones are a catastrophe. They`re a feeding frenzy for sick

QUINTANILLA: We called a few Trump resorts, a few Trump properties,
that do not allow guns with or without a permit. Would you change those

TRUMP: I would change them.

QUINTANILLA: All right. Thank you.


HAYES: Joining me now, Joy Reid, MSNBC national correspondent, and
Mcintosh, vice president of communications for Emily`s List.

Jess, let me start with you. I have gotten the sense for a long time
from reporting informal conversations, that the Clinton campaign, and I
think this is less true of the Sanders campaign, but it`s definitely true
of the Clinton campaign, has been gaming out a Clinton-Bush general

That`s the sense I`ve gotten. Do you think that is changing?

JESS MCINTOSH, EMILY`S LIST: Yes. I think that obviously Bush was the
big loser of last night. And I wouldn`t really be too surprised to see him
not make it
much past Iowa if he doesn`t have a great showing there.

I think no one knows what`s going to happen. All we can do is keep
the Democratic primary that we`re running, and the Clinton campaign running
the campaign that they`re running, and I think that both of those things
are things the Democrats can really be proud of, especially if you compare
what happened at the
Democratic debate to what happened at the Republican debate last night,
where like no one won, no one lost, no one made any sense. I learned

Where did it all go wrong? What have I done with my life that I`m
watching this instead of game 2? It was kind of sad.

But, I felt the exact opposite way watching the Democratic debate,
where a really substantive conversation was taking place.

I think all you can do in this through the looking glass world of the
2016 Republican primary is keep trucking along with the forward-looking
agenda that frankly all of the Democrats are putting forward, and know that
that is going to contrast so sharply with whoever comes out of this mess
that is the Republican primary.

HAYES: So, one of the places that`s going to contrast, there`s a few
things, but first I want to talk about Rubio, right? Because the case, Joy,
that Rubio is going to make is twofold, right?

Forget about policy, because frankly there`s tremendous consensus on

Is, a, I know what the struggles of ordinary working Americans are
like, I have this great sort of American dream story of the child of
immigrants who worked
his way up, I`ve struggled with finances myself.

And b, I understand immigrants and immigration, I speak fluent
Spanish, I can reach Latino voters.

Those both seem like fairly plausible arguments and part of the pitch
he`s going to make increasingly as he goes to try to poach Jeb donors in
the wake of last night.

What do you make of it, Joy?

going to
see, as far as Rubio`s campaign making the case to donors, is a lot even
more simple than that.

I think what you`re seeing is a part of the Republican party believe
that they can run the Obama strategy against Hillary Clinton, that they can
simply have a young attractive ethnic candidate who will have an ethnic

I had a great conversation with Bruce Bartlett the other day were he
was talking about the fact that the Republican party has long sought to
sort of duplicate the Obama effect, and if they can find a person of color,
particularly a minority candidate like a Marco Rubio, who can sort of make
an ethnic appeal, that they can run the same dynamic against Hillary
Clinton that Barack Obama did, meaning, I`m the younger candidate, I`m the
candidate that`s more like the ordinary
person, I can understand average Americans as you said, but also add that
ethnic dimension.

Now, of course the challenge with that is that Marco Rubio is
foursquare against the majority of policy positions of most Latinos.

So it`s sort of a facile position to say just because he`s Latino,
he`s going to have this sort of automatic appeal to Latino voters, when his
positions on
issues, particularly on immigration, where he`s dropped his own bill, that
that`s not going to get litigated. That`s a supposition I think that is
flawed because it`s too simplistic.

But I think that is part of the appeal, that the Rubio team is going
to make to the party.

They`re going to say look, you know, Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio are
really the same candidate. They`re both neoconservatives, they`re both on
that neo con side of the ledger for Republicans, but Rubio is going to
market himself as a younger more ethnic model.

The question I would have is whether it`s real they`d have us appeal
to conservatives.

And quickly on the other side, you have the Clinton campaign, which
has enough of the Obama campaign apparatus inside of it that they`re just
looking at the demographics she needs to pull out.

She needs to get 80% of that 28% to 30% of the vote that`s going to be
minority, and I think they just look at the metrics and think they can
apply that to any of the Republicans.

MCINTOSH: I think Marco Rubio is exactly like Barack Obama, only
without any of the hope and change.

HAYES: Well, he`s also -- I mean, part of it also is there`s this
quality of political talent and it can sometimes be overrated. Certain
people are very good at
it. People have different natural aptitudes.

Marco Rubio seems to be someone with a considerable aptitude for --
there are certain aspects of politics for which he appears to have a
considerable aptitude.

MCINTOSH: Definitely.

HAYES: But part of it also, Jess, is one thing that struck me last
night is the thing that unifies this Republican field, that unifies every
Republican field I`ve seen in my adult life, is big tax cuts for the rich.

That is going to be a corner stone. It`s almost existential that
that`s what a Republican`s going to run against. And if you`re Hillary
Clinton, I think you`re pretty happy to have that debate.

MCINTOSH: This is why I think it doesn`t matter all that much whether
you were planning on a Jeb Bush nomination or a Marco Rubio nomination, or
even a
Donald Trump nomination.

I know he`s a little bit anathema to Republican doctrine in terms of
how he wants to divide his tax cuts but, aside from saying that he`s not
bought and paid for by the giant corporations that are shaping income
inequality in America, he is the giant corporations that are shaping income
inequality in America.

So, I think no matter who comes out, you`re running the same playbook.
It`s an agenda that deals with the economic populism that this country is
striving to hear more about, versus folks who just want to keep it exactly
the same way.

Rubio`s been kind of winning by default for a while now. He`s been
laying really low and watching everyone else sort of self-immolate. And he
looked great last night.

I don`t think that strategy`s going to work for him anymore, because
now he`s in the front.

He`s going to be in the spotlight.

HAYES: Right. And Joy`s point about not reinventing the wheel -- the
Clinton campaign understands what the winning path is because it`s been
demonstrated in two successive elections. I think pertains as well.

Joy Reid, Jess Mcintosh, thank you both.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right

Good evening, Rachel.


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