'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Wednesday, November 4th, 2015
Read the transcript to the Wednesday show
Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL
Date: November 4, 2015
Guest: Kay Bailey Hutchison, E.J. Dionne, Steve Jarding, Charlene Gubash,
Evan Kohlmann, Michael Kay, Patrick Kennedy
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Latest "Fox News" poll, down at the bottom, you
have -- look what this says.
The latest "Fox News" poll, down at the bottom, you have Rand Paul, Mike
Huckabee at 4 percent, I mean, they should be in, but Chris Christie does
not hit 3, he`s only at 2.
And when you factor that "Fox News" poll in with the other three latest
polls, according to the "Fox Business" criteria, Chris Christie does not
make the cut.
Now, to be fair, "Fox Business" will not officially announce who`s in the
debate until tomorrow night at 7:00.
And remember, they`ve --"Fox Business" hasn`t said exactly which polls
they`re going to use in this polling average for deciding who qualifies.
So, maybe they`ll fudge it, maybe those will be some changes to which polls
they`ve decided to use and they`ll find something favorable to Chris
Christie to factor it in.
You know, maybe they`ll decide that Chris Christie at 2.25 percent is close
enough, but it stands right now to the best of our knowledge and the best
guess of their methodology that Chris Christie is going to be at the kids
table on Tuesday night.
Drama. Now, does it for us tonight, we`ll see you again tomorrow, now it`s
time for THE LAST WORD, Alex Wagner is in for Lawrence tonight.
ALEX WAGNER, MSNBC: HOST We have breaking news from Egypt about
intelligence reports that point to ISIS for the crash of a passenger jet.
I`ll ask Senator Lindsey Graham about Donald Trump and why Republican
voters are looking for outsiders and why Democrats are looking for voters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This will change the tenor of what happens in the 2016
race. It truly will.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It`s a movement. People that
don`t want to be taken advantage of anywhere --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The election of Tea Party Republican Matt Bevin as
TRUMP: I love what happened in Kentucky.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Blue state, it is now red.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody predicted it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We as a state have the ability to change the tenor of
what politics looks like.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another indicator of a strong yearn for outsiders.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jack Conway ran into the unexpected headwinds of Trump-
TRUMP: They gave me a lot of credit for that one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Losing to an outsider candidate in the year of the
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC: What was the fringe just a year ago is now very
electable in the Republican Party.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reflection of the angst among voters.
TRUMP: There is something happening, folks.
MATTHEWS: Last night`s wild and dramatic upset in Kentucky is a warning
shot to the country.
BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS: Fallon, what would you do to fix the deep
ideological divide in this country?
FALLON: Pizza party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WAGNER: The Democratic Party has just gotten a brutal reality check.
President Obama may be riding away for political success in his seventh
year in office, but down the ballot, Democrats are suffering significant
Since 2008, Democrats have lost over 900 state legislature seats, 12
governorships, 69 house seats and 13 Senate seats.
Republicans control 70 percent of state legislatures, more than 60 percent
of governorships and 55 percent of Attorneys General and secretaries of
The problem for the left was made especially clear last night, going
against both polls and expectations, Republican newcomer Matt Bevin beat
Democrat Jack Conway in Kentucky`s gubernatorial race 53 percent to 44
Just over 30 percent of voters turned out to cast a ballot. And by
supporting antigay marriage, county clerk Kim Davis and vowing to dismantle
the state`s healthcare system, Matt Bevin took 106 out of Kentucky`s 120
Democrat Jack Conway won just 14 of them. Bevin`s conservative message
played especially well in the state`s rural counties where in some cases he
led with a margin of as much as 60 percent or more.
Bevin, who has never held political office before also rode a wave of
insurgent excitement, responding to Conway`s loss last night, the
Democratic Governor`s Association issued this statement.
"Unfortunately, Conway ran into the unexpected headwinds of Trump-Mania,
losing to an outsider candidate in the year of the outsider."
Here is what Donald Trump had to say about that today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I love what happened in Kentucky --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes!
TRUMP: And he`s --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes!
TRUMP: He`s a good guy and they gave me a lot of credit for that one. I
don`t deserve the credit, but there is something happening, folks, I will
There is something happening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WAGNER: Joining us now are Kay Bailey Hutchison, former Republican senator
from Texas and senior counsel at the law firm of Bracewell & Giuliani.
Steve Jarding, Democratic consultant and professor at the Harvard Kennedy
School of Government, he is the co-author of "Foxes in the Hen House: How
the Republicans Stole the South and the Heartland and What the Democrats
Must Do to Run Them Out".
And E.J. Dionne, opinion writer for "The Washington Post" and an Msnbc
political analyst. Kay, let me start with you in terms of Matt Bevin and I
just wonder, does Matt Bevin not owe a debt of gratitude to the Republican
I believe the Republican Governors Association spent $2.5 million on Matt
Bevin in the final two weeks, and I wonder if you think they will call for
that debt to be paid once he takes office?
KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, FORMER UNITED STATES SENATOR: Are you talking to me?
WAGNER: Yes, sorry.
HUTCHINSON: Oh, I`m sorry, I thought you were talking to E.J. Oh, I think
that he came out of nowhere, and I think he did it on his own with
When you carry 106 out of 120 counties, that`s really a mandate. And I
think what happened in Kentucky is what you see happening in little pockets
around the country because of the Republican primary itself and the
candidates that are the outsiders are on top.
And I think there`s -- what Donald Trump said is true, something is
happening out there. I haven`t heard a really good explanation for it
except that people are sick and tired of government.
They don`t think it`s working. They don`t -- they don`t have the jobs that
they used to have at the pay scales that they used to have.
And I think people are frustrated across the board with Democrats and
Republicans, but I think Republicans are talking about the problems with
overregulation, over taxation, and the malaise in the economy.
WAGNER: E.J., to that end, I mean, everybody is asking what just happened,
right? The Republican establishment is asking what just happened and
Democrats in large part.
I think it feels like we`re having a moment where Democrats are sort of
realizing what`s truly been happening in off-year elections and down-ballot
Which is to say, the Republicans are trouncing Democrats at the state
legislature level and in terms of governorships.
And I wonder how much you think that is due to what your paper, "The
Washington Post" called the notion of a political thermostat.
That when there is a Democrat in the White House, the electorate goes a
little bit more conservative and vice versa if there`s a Republican in the
E.J. DIONNE, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, that happens sometimes,
but it doesn`t always happen that way.
I mean, aiming at the heart of it is the nature of the Democratic
constituency versus the nature of the Republican constituency.
Democrats are younger, they are more African-American and Latino,
Republicans are older, predominantly white.
And the Democratic vote in much larger numbers in presidential elections
than in off-year or off-off year elections.
And so all those gains that we hear about are gains the Republicans have
made in off-year elections in 2010 and 2014. Now, that doesn`t mean it`s
not a big problem for Democrats.
They have lost all these seats, they lost control over redistricting, but
it`s a very particular problem they got to solve.
And on the outsider thing, I think something -- we`re acting as if the
outsiderism in the Republican Party and in Republican parts of the country
and Kentucky is basically Republican, even though they have elected
Republican governors is happening across the whole country.
Trump and Carson are getting about half of the 40 percent of people who are
Republicans or Republican-leaning independents.
That`s 20 percent of the country, it`s a big deal. It doesn`t -- it means
something, but I think we should not over generalize of what is happening
in particular inside the Republican Party.
WAGNER: Well, but Steve, there`s also -- I mean, Maddie Glazier(ph) wrote
about this on Vox. There are reasons for this as E.J. points out, off-year
elections and I think 39 of 50 states hold off-year elections for governors
when turnouts are low.
So, that automatically favors Republicans. But there`s also something he
points out, this idea of a feedback loop.
Which is that, Republicans when in office use those electoral games to
strengthen their constituencies and weaken those of the opposition.
And that seems to be a sort of long-term effect. It`s not just -- we have
our guys in this year and not in two years, this is a sort of systemic
change and if you look at the legislation that`s going through state houses
across the country, this is the way in which Republicans are truly changing
the cultural, social and political landscape in the U.S.
STEVE JARDING, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT & PROFESSOR, HARVARD KENNEDY SCHOOL OF
GOVERNMENT: Well, I think they are, but I think -- I think it`s an over
simplification to say that the (INAUDIBLE) was based on an outsider
candidate, I think there was some of that.
But the outsider candidate had a ton of money, the outsider candidate in
this case has been living in a system where whether it`s the Koch brothers
who the American Legislative Exchange Council spending millions of dollars
at the state legislative level to try to build grassroots.
Democrats have not been doing that, but I would also argue that part of the
problem is that Democrats have not taken the fight to the American public.
The American public is upset, they should be upset, governments failed
them. And yet, you didn`t see in Kentucky, you saw a Republican win by
saying I`m going to dismantle healthcare when 20 percent of kids in
Kentucky go to bed hungry.
When a hundred thousand kids are going to lose their healthcare under this
governor. I didn`t see a Democratic candidate fighting for that.
They concede family values to the Republicans, I`ll challenge Republicans
on family values, and poverty is not a family value, hunger is not a family
Lack of health insurance is not a family value. The Democrats have to go
after these people. Kim Davis says, well, I`m doing what the Bible says --
no, you`re not, you`re doing what the Old Testament says.
That, you know, Jesus said in the New Testament 40 times, if you believe,
you`re in. But the problem, I think, Alex, is Democrats aren`t making the
They`re conceding the arguments to Republicans, particularly in rural areas
in the south, instead of taking the argument to them.
When they`re playing on that turf; on the Republican turf of letting the
Republicans define the issues, that`s what happens.
So, I don`t disagree with anything that E.J. said here, but I think it`s --
the fundamental problem for the Democrats is much deeper.
They`ve got to stand up and start reminding the American public what their
programs have been. That when kids in Kentucky are hungry, we`re going to
When this governor-elect wants to get rid of healthcare for 100,000 kids,
we`re not going to let that happen. That`s not a family value and yet the
Democrats aren`t saying it and they wonder why they lose races.
WAGNER: Well, Kay Bailey Hutchison, you mentioned this, there`s the
frustration on both sides of the aisle.
And if you look at the new "Nbc"-"Wall Street Journal" poll numbers on
this, 69 percent of Americans, not Republicans or Democrat-voters,
Americans agree with the following statements.
"I feel angry because our political system seems to be only working for the
insiders with money and power." There is part -- there is bipartisan
And anger seems to be an incredibly animating, motivating factor in this
election. Do you think Democrats have harnessed that sense of frustration?
HUTCHISON: Well, I think the Democrats have been losing not only in these
off election years, but remember in 2014, Republicans took over the Senate.
And so now they control Congress, but they don`t have the veto pen. The
President certainly has done a lot with his power of course.
And I think -- I think the Republicans are talking about why the economy is
so bad, why there aren`t jobs, poverty has increased under President Obama.
And I think it`s -- I think it`s a factor of why -- I mean -- and you have
to say why? And small businesses are the ones that are getting hit the most
and are the most concerned and -- I mean, they`re mad because of Obamacare,
because of the overregulation, the duplication of regulation, the buildup
WAGNER: Right --
HUTCHISON: And they just see that they`re getting nowhere, people see
they`re getting nowhere and talking about the middle class, those are the
small business people that are getting saddled with all of these extra
And so they`re not hiring --
WAGNER: E.J. --
HUTCHISON: People and they`re not -- they`re not gaining.
WAGNER: E.J., let me ask you, to that -- to the question of frustration
among the left, it feels like there is a robust debate happening, which is
why we`re seeing Bernie Sanders popularity.
There seems to be a price of progressive left would like to extract from
the presumed candidate. Would you agree with that? I mean, do you think
there is that anger that is reflected in the poll numbers?
DIONNE: I don`t think it`s -- well, I think the anger on the Democratic
side is much more against private interests having, you know, rich private
interests, having excessive influence in the political system.
If you look at Bernie Sanders supporters, they are people who actually
believe in government and believe the government can accomplish a lot of
So, I think it`s a very different sort of anger or as in the Republican
side, it`s directed against government as a whole. Just two real quick
points on the Senator`s point.
I was talking about midterms, not just off off-years, that`s when the
turnout goes down and that`s when Democrats lose.
And I think Steve is absolutely right. I think Democrats particularly in
red states worry about really bringing the fight to the other side because
it might make them sound liberal.
But talking about keeping people in eastern Kentucky on healthcare, is that
doesn`t necessarily have to sound liberal. It just -- it sounds like you
are operating in the interest of those folks.
So, I think Democrats do need to target rural voters whom they`ve lost in
large numbers and actually talk about what they`re going to do for them.
WAGNER: Kay Bailey Hutchison, Steve Jarding and E.J. Dionne, thank you all
for joining us tonight --
HUTCHISON: I thank you --
DIONNE: Good to be with you --
WAGNER: Coming up --
HUTCHISON: Good to see you, Alex --
WAGNER: My interview with Senator Lindsey Graham, his reaction to Charles
Koch and why he disagrees with Koch about U.S. military intervention in the
And Chris Christie has his biggest breakout moment on the campaign trail
yet after getting candid about addiction. Patrick Kennedy is here to react
Plus, a new turn in the investigation into a Russian plane that crashed in
Egypt over the weekend. Did ISIS bring that plane down with a bomb?
WAGNER: We have breaking news to report. A new "Fox News" poll finds
Donald Trump back on top with 26 percent, followed by Ben Carson at 23
percent, Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio are now tied for third at 11 percent and
Jeb Bush and John Kasich are tied for fifth at 4 percent.
Up next, a new report indicates that ISIS may be involved in a crash of a
Russian airliner over the weekend, we will get the very latest live from
WAGNER: We`re following breaking news this evening. Unnamed U.S.
officials tell "Nbc News" that evidence indicates a bomb likely brought
down the plane over Egypt`s Sinai Peninsula, that metro jet crash that
killed all 224 people onboard it this Saturday.
Russian doctors meanwhile say victims in the back of the plane suffered
injuries that are consistent with a bomb.
U.S. investigators are focused on the possibility that ISIS operatives or
sympathizers were directly involved.
The suspicion is that the bomb may have been planted by ground crews or
baggage handlers and it is a suspicion apparently shared by the United
Today, Britain suspended all flights to and from the airport in Sharm el-
Sheikh where the plane took off.
These developments are all happening on the same day that the head of the
airport security, as well as three chiefs were fired amid the discovery of
lax security measures.
Hours after the crash, an ISIS affiliate claimed responsibility, but
Egyptian and national authorities have dismissed it. Today, the group
reiterated its claim but shared no new evidence.
American intelligence sources say none of the passengers or crew members
were linked to any terrorists networks.
Joining us now is Evan Kohlmann, an Msnbc News terrorism analyst and chief
of research and development.
Officer for Flash Point, Michael Kay; a former military pilot and senior
adviser for the U.K. Ministry of Defense who is also a foreign affairs
And Charlene Gubash joins us on the phone, she is the "Nbc News" Cairo
Bureau Chief. Charlene, let me start with you, thank you for being up at
this late hour.
Can you give us a sense of the safety measures that the Egyptian government
has taken in terms of air safety thus far?
CHARLENE GUBASH, NBC NEWS CAIRO BUREAU CHIEF: Well, in terms of the
airport in Sharm el-Sheikh, they`ve brought more dogs to the site, more
bombs-sniffing dogs, they`re bringing a lot more.
They`re even building kennels for them and they`re going to bring bomb-
sniffing dogs out on to the tarmac itself, so they can check out the food
They can check out the luggage, the plane themselves. They`re bringing in
brand-new and modern X-ray machines. They`re going to spread those out
throughout the airport.
They`re also going -- they`ve also already implemented measures with the
ground staff that they have to go through the X-ray machines.
Because before when they came in, they only went through the X-ray machines
once and they didn`t go back through them when they went back and forth
from the tarmac into the building and back out again.
And for the policemen, they didn`t have to go through X-ray machines at
all, they didn`t -- there were no questions asked and they didn`t have to
have any special permissions to be on the tarmac.
So, those things are changing and as far as the passengers are concerned,
the measures are pretty much the same.
With the -- with the ground staff also, they`re making them take off their
shoes when they go through the X-ray machines which never happened before.
So, a lot has been changing and people there are saying, the airport -- the
employers are saying the airport is being turned upside down and though
they never know what to expect -- and expect a lot of change to happen
WAGNER: And then let`s talk about these unnamed officials leaking the idea
-- their assessment, we don`t know how independent it is, that a bomb may
be -- may have been behind this.
There`s been a lot of talk about ISIS` capacity to execute something like
this. What`s your -- what`s your thinking on that?
EVAN KOHLMANN, MSNBC NEWS TERRORISM ANALYST & CHIEF OF RESEARCH &
DEVELOPMENT: Well, look, it`s ISIS` affiliate in the Sinai that claimed
credit for this. It`s not ISIS main. And their claims are very strange.
This audio recording that was put out this morning, what they said is, we
are not obliged to tell you how we did this and you prove to us we didn`t
You get the black boxes and you prove to us, we dare you. It`s a very
strange thing for a group to say if they really did this. The Pakistani
Taliban which is hardly known as a technically skilled group.
This is a group -- they hardly come from Silicon Valley -- within hours of
the failed 2010 Times Square bomb plot. They had pictures of the bomber
with the head of their group on YouTube.
I mean, this is what we expect from terrorists, because ISIS is the most
sophisticated when it comes to using the internet.
It`s been days now and there`s been no objective evidence whatsoever from
either ISIS central or ISIS in Sinai that they were behind this, other than
these audio recordings.
So look, are these credible claims? Yes, they`re definitely from ISIS,
they`re claiming credit. Is there anything in these claims, in these
statements that would authenticate the idea that ISIS was behind this, that
this was a bomb plot? No, nothing, zero, nada.
So, we`re left with the statements from U.S. officials and with that, we
really have to see what they`re based on.
What does the forensic evidence actually show and two days into the process
-- pardon me for being skeptical, but I`m not sure we`re there yet to make
those kind of definitive conclusions.
WAGNER: I think one of the things that ramped up speculation about a
terrorist attack, Michael, is the fact that the British government has
effectively stranded I think 20,000 British tourists who are in Sharm el-
Sheikh, which is a popular vacation destination.
To do that, to make that decision --
MICHAEL KAY, FORMER MILITARY PILOT & SENIOR ADVISER, U.K. MINISTRY OF
DEFENSE & FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes --
WAGNER: One would think they have some kind of evidence. You`ve been to
I mean, it is a major destination for European holiday travelers to sort of
leave them there in this moment would be some kind of indication of
KAY: Well, the motives are all there. The motives are Russia and Syria
and the Islamic State. And the other motive is by doing or committing an
atrocity like this.
You`re going to be really hitting hard the Egyptian economy -- the tourist
economy. Been to Sharm el-Sheikh twice, in 2010 and 2011. It is a very --
you know, it`s a town which is just risen on the tourist industry.
Most of the Egyptians that work there are from Cairo, Alexandria, Luxor,
there is no real sort of, you know, community around Sharm el-Sheikh.
It`s all based on the tourist industry. But let me just talk a little bit
about the U.K. perspective at the moment. As Evan alluded to, you know, a
board of inquiries have been convened for 72 hours now.
And usually Pan Am 103 is a fantastic case study that took a year to
understand that it was a bit of sent up -- the explosive in a Toshiba radio
cassette in the front hold of the cargo.
It exploded at 31,000 feet. And it covered a debris field of 130
kilometers. And a bit of analysis that I find interesting in this is that,
this jet was also at 31,000 feet, the debris field was 8 kilometers.
MH-17 was hit by a radar-guided missile and it`s only radar-guided missiles
that can take out airlines that`s above 20,000 feet. MANPADS, the
shoulder-launched missiles, they cannot, which ISIS have.
ISIS do not have the track for the radar-guided missiles. So, when it
comes to the ability to do that, ISIS don`t have the ability to do that.
The MH-17 was spread over 50 kilometers and that was a proximity fused by
the cockpit. So, the big -- the big question mark I have over this is
that, if it was an explosive device of some sort and it did explode at
31,000 feet, then why isn`t the debris field larger?
And that is the bit that isn`t actually adding up at the moment.
WAGNER: And then how confident are you that we`re going to get
transparency from the Russians who are doing a lot of the investigation
KOHLMANN: Oh, it`s very difficult to understand that right now. The
Russians have so many different motivations wrapped up in this.
The last thing that they want to do is admit that ISIS was involved in
this. I think that`s part of the problem -- is that any kind of a
reporting or a suggestion about who was responsible or what was responsible
without some kind of definitive evidence, we risk muddying the waters here.
And there`s a lot of people here who stand the benefit from muddying the
waters. Russia really does not want to admit ISIS brought down a plane
with 200-plus of their citizens onboard.
That would be terrible propaganda for them. It will be great propaganda --
WAGNER: Well --
KOHLMANN: For ISIS --
WAGNER: And one would assume it would result in a Russian escalation in
KAY: I mean potentially. But the only question mark as well I would raise
is that -- is that the U.K. government wouldn`t have put itself out on a
limb well before the board of inquiry convened.
If it didn`t have some --
WAGNER: Something --
KAY: Sort of intelligence to suggest that the safety and security of U.K.
passengers was in some way at risk. And so I think we`ve got to, you know,
weeks out here right now, we don`t know what that intelligence is --
KAY: But there`s something out there which we don`t know about.
WAGNER: It is a developing situation, obviously a fluid one. Charlene
Gubash, Evan Kohlmann and Michael Kay, thank you guys all for your time.
KAY: Thank you.
WAGNER: Coming up, Senator Lindsey Graham weighs in on the latest
developments in the metro jet crash and what he says should be a wake-up
call for Vladimir Putin.
And later, Patrick Kennedy is here to discuss Chris Christie`s personal
emotional stories about how we deal with addiction in America.
WAGNER: A new poll today out of New Hampshire shows Donald Trump in the
lead with 18 percent and Ben Carson at Trump`s heel with 15 percent. Marco
Rubio stands at 9 percent, John Kasich is at 8 percent. Jeb Bush and Chris
Christie are each at 7 percent.
And, on the other end, Lindsey Graham, Mike Huckabee and Rick Santorum are
all at 0 percent. I spoke to Senator Graham about that and much more
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WAGNER: Senator, the latest polling from WBUR shows Donald Trump and Ben
Carson at the top, which is reflected in a lot of national polls as well.
And, I guess I wonder, what do you think is happening there in New
Hampshire and what are the responses to you, an insider in what some people
are calling the season of outsiders.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R-SC) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, if you look at
polls in 2008 and 2012, the people leading at this particular point in time
never made it. There is frustration out there with the political system.
I totally get that. Washington is broken. But, I would suggest I am more
of a solution than the problem, but National Security has kind of become
more of an issue, because the world is literally falling apart.
So, my hope is, my belief is that by coming to New Hampshire a lot, "John
McCain helping me, meeting people in town halls and house parties that I
can convey a message that I am better prepared to be Commander-in-Chief
than anyone running.
And, I have a plan to destroy ISIL and a desire to work with democrats to
get us out of debt. And, New Hampshire will look at really close at all of
us. You cannot buy New Hampshire. So, if I am going to break through, it
will be here in New Hampshire, and I like my chances.
WAGNER: Senator, I want to talk a little bit about that dichotomy,
outsider versus inside and specifically --
GRAHAM: Yes. OK.
WAGNER: -- the results in Kentucky last night. Matt Bevin has positioned
hymn as an outsider.
WAGNER: He went after Mitch McConnell in 2014. I wonder if you think you
can stay an outsider once you are actually inside. You know, Matt Bevin
has already started hedging --
GRAHAM: Yes. That is a good question.
WAGNER: I mean he started hedging a little bit on his pledge --
WAGNER: -- to get rid of Kynect and the exchanges.
WAGNER: -- and the Medicaid expansion.
WAGNER: Do you think he remains this insurgent once he is in the
GRAHAM: I thought it was pretty interesting that he called on Mitch
McConnell to help him and Mitch said, yes.
GRAHAM: Mitch came to Mr. Bevin`s aid at the end. We are a team. The Tea
Party has many similar views of the government that I do in terms of making
it limited, trying to reduce the size and scope of the government. We
definitely have real differences.
But, you know, when you run for office and you get the job, it is like the
dog that caught the car. You are going to realize if there are other
people on the other side of the aisle. And, I hope Mr. Bevin will govern
Kentucky in a good fashion. He has my support. I will try to help in any
way I can. But the difference between talking about government and
governing is really different. And, you know that when you get these jobs.
WAGNER: Do you think he will actually shut down the Kentucky healthcare
exchange and repeal the Medicaid expansion?
GRAHAM: You know, I really do not know.
WAGNER: Let us talk about ISIS. Because we are getting reports today that
they may have had a bomb placed in the Russian Airliner that was taken down
over the Sinai Peninsula. Do you think given all of your foreign policy
expertise, that this could change Vladimir Putin`s calculation about what
he is doing in Syria?
GRAHAM: It should. See, I think it is ISIL against mankind. They want to
kill every Muslim who disagrees. They want to purify their faith. Destroy
the Christian religion in the Mid East. They are on the way to doing that.
Destroy Israel and come after us, the infidels, Russia and America, anybody
disagrees with them outside of their faith.
So, my condolences to the Russian families, who lost their loved ones.
But, you got to understand this about ISIL. Their desire to kill is only
limited by their capability to kill. They have, apparently, if this is
true, a sophisticated network to get a bomb on an airplane, to penetrate
defenses. I hope this is a wake-up call to Putin and the world at large,
that ISIL has to be destroyed. President Obama got the right goal to
destroy, he just does not have the right strategy.
WAGNER: Senator, I know you favor much more of robust intervention in
certain parts of the Middle East. I want to play a little bit of sound
interview that Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski had with Charles Koch
the other day, wherein he weighed in on his opinion regarding military
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES KOCH, REPUBLICAN MEGA DONOR: We keep kicking out dictators and
then we do not get anything better and we mess up a lot of people`s lives
in the process and spend fortunes and have many Americans killed and
maimed. It is kind of like my support for some of these republican
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WAGNER: Were you dismayed to hear Charles Koch say that?
GRAHAM: No, not really. He is more of a libertarian. I wish he would
help me. I am trying to be a republican that would change things. But,
here is my reply to Mr. Koch, who is a fine man, who has employed a lot of
Americans. This is a religious war. We have not brought this upon
On September 10th, the day before 9/11/2001, we did not have one soldier in
Afghanistan, we did not have an embassy, we did not have a dime of aid.
The reason they hit us is because they are compelled by their religion to
destroy our religion, to purify their faith and destroy the state of
It is not because we are in Syria or Iraq or Libya. We were attack before
we went into Iraq. If you do not understand that these people are
motivated by their religion to create a master religion and they are intent
on imposing their will on the rest of us, you do not get the war.
WAGNER: Senator, but would you concede that the American people are
skeptical of putting more American soldiers in harm`s way in the Middle
East? I mean even Charles --
WAGNER: No. You would not.
GRAHAM: I think if you ask the average American, do you believe ISIL will
hit us if we do not hit them? Do you believe as part of their agenda they
will not attack the United States? That is what al-Baghdadi told the
American Colonel and turn them over to Iraqis, I will see you in New York.
I think the average American believes that radical Islam needs to be
stopped over there before they come here. And, if you could show them a
plan that would work, 50 special forces are not going to change the tide of
battle. What would I do? I will train Syrians, having no-fly zone to give
them a place to train, a place where refugees could go without being
I would get the region together, the Arabs in Turkey who hate ISIL as much
as we do. I would use their army. I will put some of our forces in their
army to make sure we destroy ISIL. I go underground and I destroy these
guys. They are about 30,000, 40,000.
So, they are going to need a fairly good-sized army. I think most
Americans would support America joining with the region to destroy ISIL, if
you could explain to them how to succeed.
WAGNER: Senator Graham, on that note, you are one of only candidates in
the republican field who articulated an explicit plan to combat radical
GRAHAM: Yes. Yes.
WAGNER: Regardless of whether anybody -- regardless whether I or other
people agree with you, you are actually saying it. And, yet, the polling
comes out this week, showing that the majority of republican voters trust
Donald Trump and Ben Carson with the nuclear codes. And, I wonder what was
your reaction to that?
GRAHAM: Well, you know, Herman Cain was leading at one point in time.
There is frustration out there. These two --
WAGNER: But not for this long, Senator. Not for this long.
GRAHAM: No. Well, you know, look at who was leading on this date in 2008
and 2012. Here is my point. I think the more we get focused on national
security, the more my voice will resonate. I have been to Iraq and
Afghanistan 35 times, 33 years in the air force. I have really done my
I think my ideas will make more sense the closer we get to the election.
Ben Carson is a fine man. I just do not understand where he is coming from
on foreign policy. And, if Mr. Trump`s view of Syria is to just turn it
over to the Russians and Iranians. That is a bad idea. The bottom line is
it is not just enough to criticize President Obama.
What would you do differently. I would have a robust ground component made
up of Syrians, regional armies and some Americans to destroy ISIL without a
ground component. It will not work. You need somebody on the ground and
the Syrians by themselves cannot do this.
WAGNER: Senator Lindsey Graham, thank you as always for your time. Best
of luck with the next round of debate. We hope to see you on the main
stage sometime soon.
GRAHAM: Me, too. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WAGNER: Up next, Chris Christie`s personal side has gone viral. And,
movie director Quentin Tarantino says he is not intimidated by police
boycotting his movies. He will not apologize, but he does have a message
he wants you to hear.
WAGNER: In the latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll, Chris Christie is
in a four-way tie for sixth place with Carly Fiorina, John Kasich and Mike
Huckabee. All of whom have received 3 percent. For Governor Christie,
that is actually a two-point increase since the time -- the last time the
poll was taken.
Arguably, an increase thanks to his debate performance last week. But
Christie`s biggest breakout moment yet may have happened off the debate
stage and on the campaign trail in New Hampshire.
A few days ago, the "Huffington Post" posted an outtake from an episode of
its web series "16 and President". And, that video has exploded online
with more than 3 million Facebook views. In it, Governor Christie talks
candidly and personally about drug addiction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R-NJ) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My mother was a
smoker. She smoked her life. She was addicted to nicotine. She started
when she was 16 years old, which was 1948. But, by the time 1964 came --
the surgeon general`s report came out and she was in her 30s, she knew that
smoking was bad for you.
And, I will tell you, I watched her as a kid growing up. She tried
everything she could to quit. She had the gum, the patches, the hypnosis,
she has tried everything. She could not quit. Now, when she turned 71, a
little after that, she was diagnosed with lung cancer. No one came to me
and said, "Do not treat her, because she got what she deserved."
Somehow, if it is heroin or cocaine or alcohol, we say, "Well, they
decided, they are getting what they deserved." I am pro life, and I think
that if you are pro life, that means you got to be pro life for the whole
life. Not just for the nine months they are in womb, all right? It is
easy. It is easy to be pro life for the nine months they are in the womb.
They have not done anything to disappoint us yet.
They are perfect in there. But, when they get out, that is when it gets
tough. The 16-year-old teenage girl on the floor of county lock-up
addicted to heroin, I am pro life for her, too. Her life is just as much a
precious gift from God as the one in the womb. And, we need to start
thinking that way as a party and as a people. And, the president needs to
say those things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WAGNER: Up next, former Congressman Patrick Kennedy talks about his push
to get all of the 2016 candidates to talk about our nation`s drug abuse
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. CHRISTIE: We need to start treating people in this country, not
jailing them. We need to give them the tools they need to recover because
every life is precious. Every life is an individual gift from God. And,
we have to stop judging and start giving them the tools they need to get
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WAGNER: Joining us now is Patrick Kennedy, a former Democratic Congressman
from Rhode Island, the founder of the Kennedy Forum and the author of "The
New York Times" Bestseller, "A Common Struggle: A Personal Journey Through
The Past and Future of Mental Illness and Addiction."
Patrick, thanks for joining me. I just want to first get to the video of
governor Christie. As someone who struggled with addiction, what do you
find particularly resonant about that?
PATRICK KENNEDY (D), FMR. RHODE ISLAND CONGRESSMAN: Well, to average 23
million Americans who are in recovery, they are going to rush out, if they
are in a Republican primary, they are going to vote for Chris Christie.
This has a powerful political constituency that is not measured by any
I only hope that my fellow democrats can speak as passionately and as
articulately as Governor Chris Christie just did. He is absolutely right.
We need to hear this from the President of the United States. We cannot
hear the president talk about supply demand, when this is about a disease.
Governor Christie is right. This needs to be treated like all other
diseases, and we actually have the tools that he is talking about to treat
these diseases. What we cannot do, like Governor Christie said, is wait
until they become stage 4 illnesses, which we would never allow if it was
cancer. You would not wait for it to become stage 4 cancer or diabetes.
You would treat it early.
But addiction and mental illness, we routinely as a nation wait until
someone is in crisis before our medical system responds. And, that my
friend is too late, a chance for us to make a difference in saving people`s
lives. That is why suicide right now is almost triple what homicide is.
That is why overdoses today surpass car accidents. This is a public health
epidemic and Governor Christie put a face on it, and he articulated this in
a human way. That is exactly the way we need our national leaders to
articulate this issue.
WAGNER: I think a lot of people do not understand the scope of this
problem. There was a landmark study that came out this week, showing just
how broad the epidemic is. One -- especially among non-college educated
whites between the ages of 45 and 54.
And "The New York Times" coverage of this epidemic, the only comparison
that some doctors can offer is that of the HIV/AIDS epidemic. Most
Americans, I think, are unaware of just how pervasive the issue of
addiction, especially to opiates actually is, Patrick.
KENNEDY: This -- Alex, you are absolutely right. This study that was
cited is a powerful study, because it just reemphasizes what we already
know to be the case. We have an epidemic. You know, every other indices
are going down, cancer rates, cardiovascular disease, homicides. Suicide
is going up. Overdoses are going up. This is a public health epidemic.
We need to have a response.
And, this is a bipartisan issue. Everybody cares about this. That is why
in New Hampshire next week, we are going to launch the now campaign.org of
republicans and democrats coming together to support candidates on the
right like Governor Christie, and to support candidates on the left, who
articulate this position, that this is something we need national
leadership to deal with.
WAGNER: To that end, WMUR Granite State Poll finds that drug abuse is the
number one issue most important to New Hampshire voters. And. given the
candidates in the 2016 field, you mentioned, of course, Governor Christie,
but what do you think of Hillary Clinton on the other side of aisles, who
have launched -- announced a $10 billion plan to treat the epidemic?
KENNEDY: Well, Hillary Clinton has always been about prevention. Her
whole focus in early childhood is really where we ultimately need to be.
So, I absolutely salute what Hillary Clinton has proposed. In fact, she is
one of the few candidates to actually have a comprehensive proposal.
Most of these presidential candidates do not have a kind of substantive
policy proposals that Hillary has. But, frankly, we need to hear from all
candidates. And, our country needs to hear from their senatorial
candidates, gubernatorial candidates, congressional candidates.
We need to hear from anyone who wants to be a public office holder, that
this is an important issue. So, that we change this stigma and we come out
of the shadows of treating this as a moral problem, and instead start to
treat it as the medical epidemic that it is.
WAGNER: And, indeed, if there is a time to discuss it, it is now. Patrick
Kennedy, thank you so much for your time.
KENNEDY: Thank you, Alex.
WAGNER: Coming up, Quentin Tarantino`s exclusive interview with MSNBC
tonight. He further explains his remarks on police brutality and why a
police boycott is not intimidating him.
WAGNER: This Friday night, the Democratic Presidential Candidates will
come together for the first in the South Presidential Candidates Forum.
Moderated by our very own Rachel Maddow.
Join us here on MSNBC on November 6th. Set your T.V., starting at 8:00
P.M. Eastern to see Rachel`s discussion with Hillary Clinton, Bernie
Sanders and Martin O`Malley.
Coming up next, Hollywood filmmaker, Quentin Tarantino, faces a nationwide
police boycott and he refuses to back down. It is an MSNBC exclusive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUENTIN TARANTINO, HOLLYWOOD FILMMAKER: I am a human being with a
conscience. And, when I see murder, I cannot stand by and I have to call
the murdered, the murdered, and I have to call the murderers, the
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WAGNER: Quentin Tarantino made those comments at a protest against police
brutality 11 days ago. Since then, police groups across the country have
called for a boycott of his next film, and police officials have criticized
According to NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton, there are no words to describe
the contempt I have for him. But, Tarantino is standing by those remarks
telling the "Los Angeles Times" yesterday that he is not backing down.
Tonight, he spoke to Chris Hayes in an exclusive interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST, "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES": Were you surprised by
the, frankly, the vitriol with which they have responded to those comments?
TARANTINO: Yes. Well, I was surprised. I was under the impression I was
an American and that I had first amendment rights and there was no problem
with me going to an anti-police brutality protest and speaking my mind.
And, just because I was at an anti-police brutality protest, does not mean
I am anti-police. And, basically, you know, there was a lot of people at
that rally, and we were all crying for -- we were crying for a lot of
things. But, there was one thing in particular, which was stop shooting
We want justice, now stop shooting unarmed people. But, they do not want
to deal with that. They would rather start arguments with celebrities than
examine the concerns put before them by a citizenry that has lost trust in
I am not a cop hater, but that is the way they attack me, is calling me a
cop hater. That is the way the Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clark, who
was on Fox all the time says that I am putting police in danger by standing
up for the rights of unarmed citizens, who have been killed by the police.
But, at the same time, they say that about anybody who acknowledges that
there is a problem in law enforcement in this country right now, is
considered by law enforcement part of the problem, whether that be me,
whether that be Bill De Blasio, whether that be President Barack Obama.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WAGNER: That does it for us tonight. You can watch Chris Hayes` full
interview with Quentin Tarantino up next on "ALL IN".
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