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All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, November 5th, 2015

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Date: November 5, 2015
Guest: Lawrence Wilkerson, Katie Packer, Elizabeth Warren, Peter Moskos,
Viggo Mortensen


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As it relates to Dick Cheney,
he served my brother well as vice president.

HAYES: Jeb Bush is pressed on his brother`s legacy after his father
blasts Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld.

BUSH: I think my dad like a lot of people that love George want to
try to create a different narrative perhaps.

HAYES: Then, Marco Rubio under the microscope.

about Marco and his credit cards.

HAYES: As fellow Republicans dig into his past.

hindsight I would do it different to avoid all this confusion.

HAYES: Plus, Senator Elizabeth Warren joins me and shares what
troubles her about Marco Rubio.

And I`ll speak with a former police officer about what Quentin
Tarantino said on this show last night.

QUENTIN TARANTINO, FILMMAKER: We want justice. Stop shooting
unarmed people. But they don`t want to deal with that.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Breaking news tonight: the line-up for next Tuesday`s Republican
presidential debate was announced just a short time ago, and the big news
is that New Jersey Governor Chris Christie has fallen off the main stage.
Eight candidates made that main stage by pulling above 2 1/2 percent in
four recent national polls: John Kasich, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio -- front-
runners Donald Trump and Ben Carson, who will be center stage based on
their poll numbers -- Ted Cruz, Carly Fiorina, and Rand Paul.

Christie, once seen as a strong contender, even a front-runner for
the nomination, will be relegated to the undercard debate earlier in the
evening, along with the other candidates polling between 1 percent and 2
1/2 percent. Mike Huckabee, who like Christie was on the main stage in the
last debate, along with Rick Santorum and Bobby Jindal.

In a humiliating turn, Lindsey Graham and George Pataki did not even
have enough support to make it into the undercard debate.

As for one-time front-runner Jeb Bush, he did make that main stage
but not by all that much. Bush is polling at 4 percent in the two most
recent national polls, and he`s trailing both Trump and Carson by nearly 20
points. Today as he has throughout his struggling campaign, Bush once
again had to reckon with the legacy of his famous name.

A new biography of the former President George H.W. Bush, now 91
years old and fighting a form of Parkinson`s disease, reveals some amazing
details including that Bush privately referred to his 1988 Democratic
presidential opponent Michael Dukakis as, quote, "midget nerd."

But the bigger news was Bush`s scathing comments to biographer Jon
Meacham about former Vice President Dick Cheney and former Defense
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, two of the key figures in his son George W.
Bush`s administration. "Cheney built his own empire and asserted too much
hard-line influence within George W. Bush`s White House", according to
George H.W. Bush. While Rumsfeld, quote, "served the president badly and
was an arrogant fellow who wouldn`t listen to others."

In the book, George H.W. Bush also criticizes his son, George W.
Bush, for at times using overly aggressive language as president including
when he coined the term "axis of evil."

In a statement responding to the revelations George W. Bush stood by
Cheney and Rumsfeld, while Cheney told FOX News he took George H.W. Bush`s
criticism that he became too hawkish as a compliment.


DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: I took it as a mark of pride. I
think a lot of people believed then and still believe to this day that I
was aggressive in defending -- in carrying out what I thought were the
right policies.


HAYES: Rumsfeld, meanwhile, hit back with a pointed comment about
the former president`s age, telling NBC News in a statement, quote, "Bush
41 is getting up in years and misjudges Bush 43, who I found made his own

And as for that other Bush, the one currently trying to turn his
presidential campaign around, earlier today he sat down for an interview
with MSNBC political correspondent Kasie Hunt, who asked Jeb Bush how
Cheney and Rumsfeld affect his brother`s administration.


BUSH: My brother`s a big boy. His administration was shaped by his
thinking, his reaction to the attack on 9/11. I think my dad, like a lot
of people that love George, want to try to create a different narrative
perhaps just because that`s natural to do, right?

As it relates to Dick Cheney, he served my brother well as vice
president, and he served my dad extraordinarily well as secretary of
defense. The context changes, we`ve got to get beyond I think this feeling
that, you know, somehow 1991 is the same as 2001, which is the same as
2017. It isn`t. The world has changed. It always changes. And the
context changes as it relates to foreign policy and everything else.

So, looking forward, I think there are lessons to be learned from
both those presidencies and the presidencies of Ronald Reagan and Bill


HAYES: Joining me now, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, who was chief of
staff to Colin Powell when Colin Powell was secretary of state under George
W. Bush, who`s now visiting professor at the College of William & Mary.

Colonel, you know all the principal players involved here. Your
reaction to this?

Dick Cheney said, quote, "lots of people" unquote think he did a good job
and so forth. I`ll tell Dick Cheney how many of those people think he did
a good job, the 11 percent in this country who are certifiably nuts.
That`s who thinks he did a good job.

HAYES: Do you get a sense back when you were in this administration?
I think there was a little bit of a sense. I remember Brent Scowcroft
who`d been an adviser to George W. Bush wrote a famous op-ed in "The Wall
Street Journal" in a run-up to Iraq saying it was a bad idea. Many people
saw that as essentially a kind of open negotiation from W.`s father to him
that this was a mistake.

Was that the sense you had moving in these circles?

WILKERSON: Yes, we all knew that Brent and H.W. were very, very
close, probably as close as any two men can be in these kinds of high-level
circumstances. So, if Brent was going to say something and he had held his
fire for a long time, I have to think that he talked to H.W. before he did

This is -- Chris, this was in my view the best presidential
administration since Eisenhower. You can disagree with the policies that
they created. But in terms of collaboration, cooperation, the cabinet, the
team that surrounded H.W. Bush and mostly because H.W. Bush was the most
experienced man to come into the White House since Eisenhower, was

So, when you compare his rather exceptional administration to the one
of his son, which I think is going to go down in history as the worst in
the post-World War II era up to this time, it`s a stark comparison.

HAYES: It`s a real question about where this leaves Jeb Bush, of
course, who is in this kind of Shakespearean fashion been both blessed and
cursed by that name, which is kind of his fate and also his burden to carry
around. They announced a bunch of foreign policy advisers when they rolled
out their campaign initially, and it was a lot of people from both his
father and his brother.

WILKERSON: Yes, this is -- this is disturbing to me because of all
the Republican candidates, the only one that I thought had the gravitas and
the acumen to really bring it into the White House and maybe be a halfway
decent president even if he were a third Bush, which says something about
our process that we can`t find anything but Clintons or Bushes to run for

And now, I think he`s pretty much done himself in. I don`t think
he`s a viable candidate anymore. I could be wrong. We`ve got a long way
to go. But I just see the whole apparatus of my political party self-
destructing even as I watch it.

"The London Times" called it a freak show. Others have called it a
circus. I think most Americans are probably either turning them off or
watching them for entertainment or very frankly are embarrassed by them.
And Jeb Bush has just not seemed to be able to call out of that
entertainment network and make himself a valid and a solid candidate.

HAYES: It`s also true that George H.W. Bush is as much a
personification of the Republican establishment as could possibly exist.
Obviously, his father was a senator. He comes from a long line of wealthy
affluent successful businessmen and sort of movers and shakers. Are we
watching the stake being driven through the heart of the Republican
establishment right now?

WILKERSON: I think you may be right. I`ve said that before with
some caution. I`m no longer saying it with caution. I think the
Republican Party is destroying itself, at least in the sense of Eisenhower,
go all the way back to Lincoln. The kind of people like Nelson Rockefeller
and so forth.

I was just out west and found a group of young Republicans who were
truly irritated and frustrated about what`s going on in Washington. So, I
think there is a 30 to 40-year-old element out there, male and female, that
sees what`s happening and would like to recapture the party, open the tent,
invite women, Hispanics and others in, but they don`t know how to get
around this leadership we have in Washington right now, all of it. Whether
it be the ultra right leadership represented by the Tea Party or the
leadership that seems to have abandoned the Republican Party represented by
people like John Boehner.

You`re right. It`s a suicidal party right now.

HAYES: All right. Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, thank you very much.

WILKERSON: Thanks for having me.

HAYES: Joining me now to discuss the state of the race and the
fallout from tonight`s GOP debate announcement, Republican strategist Katie
Packer who was deputy campaign manager for Mitt Romney`s 2012 presidential
campaign, and MSNBC contributor Sam Seder, host of "The Majority Report."

Katie, let me start with you.

What does it say that someone like Lindsey Graham, sitting senator,
elected numerous times from his state of South Carolina, a fairly prominent
politician, is not just going to be on the undercard debate, will not be
debating, is relegated to essentially also-ran status?

KATIE PACKER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, it`s a very, very tough
thing for Senator Graham, and he certainly is somebody that has served his
state and served his party very effectively. But the fact of the matter is
that politics isn`t the same thing when you`re running for U.S. Senate as
it is when you`re running for president. There is a political component to
this, and there`s some talent and some skill that comes when you`re
campaigning in Iowa, campaigning in New Hampshire. And that`s how this
process works, that you have to sort of winnow the field at some point.

And it`s no disrespect to Lindsey Graham, but people are make
different choices.

HAYES: Sam, it`s struck me, we`ve ended up in kind of a winnowing
process as Katie just said that no one actually designed, right? What
happened was a ton of people ran for president. There was a bunch of
debates. Networks cannot run debates with 16 people, right?


HAYES: So they have to make some decisions. The decisions started
getting made around national polling averages, which seems like a totally
decent way of doing it.


HAYES: But now you`ve got this situation where you`re running in
this totally different set of rules, right? Because rather than trying to
glad-hand your way through Iowa, right, you need national polling numbers
to get on the debates, 24 million people are going to watch. To then drive
for coverage.

And so, people are competing in a game that was not the game they got
into when it started.

SEDER: Yes, I think that`s true to a certain extent. I mean,
because I think there`s a lot of those 16 or 17 where we started out who
really didn`t think that they were going to be president. I think for
Lindsey Graham, I think he`s got to be sort of shocked that he`s sort of
fallen out of even like maybe making a case for vice president.

I mean, you know, after the last debate CNBC was basically putting
him on their shoulders and saying that he was the victor of that debate.
And he had been going on with a very clear narrow message. I have to say
that there`s one thing that Lindsey Graham did is he made it very clear
what he wanted.


SEDER: He wanted a ground war in Syria in addition to Iraq and
perhaps anywhere else we could go. And that was -- I mean, when you can`t
reach 1 percent I think it`s pretty clear that message was rejected by any
calculation whatsoever.

HAYES: Yes, I think -- Katie, I think that`s a fair point. Graham
was running almost more than any other candidate. He was running on a very
specific, substantive, particularly foreign policy platform that has not
appeared to gain much traction with Republican primary voters.

PACKER: Well, I`m not sure that it`s even fair to say that there was
an actual analysis of what his message was. He didn`t raise enough money
to have a team, to have real organization, to -- you know, to have
television ads up. So, I think that it would be very, very hard for most
Republican primary voters to articulate what Lindsey graham`s message was
other than he`s very hawkish on foreign policy, which is sort of his lane.

But that`s what happens in this process, is that you do start to
winnow the field and the candidates who aren`t raising money, aren`t
gathering support out in the field, aren`t showing up in the early state
polls or the national polls, eventually, they do have to drop out and allow
for the other candidates to emerge.

SEDER: I`m sorry. I mean, if there`s one candidate in this entire
race who has had a very clear message -- I mean, it`s Lindsey Graham. I
did ask him a question about abortion --


PACKER: That`s true. But it doesn`t mean it was heard just because
he has it.

HAYES: If it wasn`t heard then that sort of prompts the question
what exactly -- if Lindsey Graham is not getting heard, this gets to the
deeper issue, which is what is the issue that people are associating with a
given candidate at this point? I mean, really.

PACKER: Well, nobody`s associating anything with anybody. All the
networks cover Donald Trump pretty much all the time. So, it`s been very
hard for any candidates to articulate --

HAYES: Well, but not Ben Carson.

PACKER: Until Carson started to emerge. But you really haven`t seen
much from anybody in the last three months except for Trump.

HAYES: But Carson`s an interesting -- there`s two theories on Donald
Trump. Theory A, media creation essentially in a kind of like compulsive
affect of cable news, they kept covering him and he rose to prominence.
Theory B, organic support for what the man stands for among the Republican
base. The Ben Carson thing because he was able to burst through without
the kind of obsessive coverage would seem to be a point in favor of the
theory B, which is what I take it your position is.


SEDER: Yes. And I wouldn`t even say the theory B is about his
positions as much as personality. I mean, look, one thing that`s clear
right now is that the Carson voters and Trump voters, they`re distinct in
the Republican Party. There`s not the huge overlap that everybody presumed
there was.

PACKER: Sure, absolutely.

SEDER: We`re watching what happened to Mitt Romney in terms of Trump
where you had Mitt Romney was in the teens and 20s throughout the year
before the primary and occasionally people would rise and this and that.

HAYES: But he would stay steady, yes.

SEDER: He would stay steady in those teens and maybe early 20s.

And so, you know, Trump I think it`s quite clear, and frankly you and
I talked about this on the day he announced, his personality is such that
it attracts Republican voters. And I think it`s the same with Carson but
for maybe more theological reasons.

HAYES: Katie, Sam made a point I think is important. People talk a
lot about OK, go back to where we were in 2011 and Herman Cain was winning
or go back to 2007, Rudy Giuliani. But if you want to make the comparison,
one thing about Mitt Romney, he never fell in the way Jeb Bush has. Mitt
Romney may have been supplanted by these flavors of the month and Newt
Gingrich had a run in front but Romney`s support was fairly consistent as
other people were taking a turn leader of the pack as opposed to Jeb Bush
who really has lost support.

PACKER: And the other thing that was consistent with Mitt is he was
always leading in New Hampshire. He always sort of had New Hampshire going
for him. But I do think it`s a little unfair to compare the two years.
They`re totally different cycles, totally different cast of characters, and
one thing that`s really different about Trump that people fail to take into
account is that he is a known quantity. There`s not a lot of new
information about him left to be known.

HAYES: Yes, that is true. All the dirty laundry has been aired
about Donald Trump.

Katie Packer, Sam Seder, thank you both.

SEDER: Thank you.

PACKER: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Still ahead, as Marco Rubio goes up in the polls,
he goes under the microscope. I`ll ask Senator Elizabeth Warren about the
Rubio story everyone`s talking about today and about her new bill to help

Plus, what a former Baltimore police officer has to say about Quentin
Tarantino`s interview on our show right here last night.

And later, I`ll talk with "Lord of the Rings" actor Viggo Mortensen
about the pitfalls of being a public figure with opinions.

These stories and more ahead.


HAYES: If you happen to be cruising around these eight cities
tomorrow and listening to what advertisers like to call urban radio, well,
then there`s a chance you might hear a little bit of this.


BEN CARSON AD: Ben Carson, 2016. Vote and support Ben Carson, for
our next president would be awesome. If we want to get America back on
track, we got to vote Ben Carson, matter of fact. Go out and vote

this message.


HAYES: That is the new $150,000 radio ad from the Ben Carson
campaign called simply "Freedom." It`s scheduled to air for two weeks.


HAYES: Senator Marco Rubio filed his papers today for the
presidential primary in New Hampshire, a state where he`s seen a
significant bump his polling fortunes since the last debate. The latest
New Hampshire poll has Rubio at 11 percent, a 9 percent bump from

And for an interesting indication of which way the winds are blowing
among the Republican establishment, FiveThirtyEight points out that in
contrast to Bush`s three endorsements since Labor Day, Rubio has received
22, by far the most of any Republican candidate over that span.

At the same time, Rubio is also getting a taste of what it`s like
when the establishment starts rallying around you. He`s coming under
increased scrutiny on immigration from fellow candidates and big names in
conservative media who are pointing to a bill Rubio co-sponsored two years
ago that included a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants and
although he`s since ruled out supporting a path to citizenship during his
presidency he`s going even further to please the immigration restrictionist
wing of the party, now saying he`s committed to getting rid of DACA, that`s
the president`s executive action that protects undocumented immigrants
brought to the country as children from deportation.


and the ideal way for it to end is it`s replaced by a reform system that
creates an alternative. But if it doesn`t it will end. It cannot be the
permanent policy of the United States.


HAYES: It`s not just his stance on immigration that`s getting
careful examination. Rubio is facing renewed scrutiny over his personal
finances, including liquidating a retirement fund prematurely and paying
penalties, as well as questions about his use of a Republican Party credit
card for personal expenditures.

As a Florida legislator, Rubio charged $10,000 fought Republican
Party for a vacation which he later said was a mistake by his travel agent
and he repaid.

Rubio says he will release his credit card history in the next few

Joining me now, Josh Barro, correspondent for the Upshot in "New York
Times" and MSNBC contributor.

So, there`s -- let`s say, two things. Two lanes. The sort of
Rubio`s personal finances are a mess. That`s not me saying that.


HAYES: That`s his opponents saying and what some of the reporting
has indicated.


HAYES: Then there`s did he misuse this credit card which strikes me
as a more legitimate issue. What do you think about the first bucket of
issues about his personal finances?

BARRO: I think this is not a potent issue against him because I
think he has a perfect response, which is I wasn`t born with hundreds of
millions of dollars and I`ve had financial struggles like normal people
and, you know, it`s a little bit rich for people with last names like Bush
and Trump to criticize me.

HAYES: And they will. One of the things that`s been interesting is
Trump clearly thinks this is -- this sort of fiscal recklessness or
whatever you want to call it -- again, I don`t want to characterize it
because I don`t think it`s that big a deal -- is a potent issue.

BARRO: Well, this is the uniqueness of Trump, right? Trump is
shameless. That`s why he can do this. And the shamelessness is part of
his brand.


BARRO: Trump will almost literally say, I`m rich, I`m so rich I
should be president because I`m so rich and my richness is a reflection of
how awesome I am.

HAYES: Yes. What`s wrong with you not being rich?

BARRO: Yes. Marco Rubio wouldn`t have had to do this if he were
good enough to be rich like me.

Other people can`t really make that argument. And so, the sort of
subtle things where people insinuate like oh, he did this early withdrawal,
isn`t that weird? Like yes, it`s a little weird. But a, a lot of people
do early withdrawals from IRA accounts even though they often probably

HAYES: Look at the financial crisis. People were liquidating left
and right.

BARRO: And they did it because they had to, because normal people
who are not rich have financial problems in their lives. So, even -- yes,
maybe he could have managed his finances better but a lost of people maybe
could have managed their finances better.

HAYES: Then the GOP credit card strikes me as a notch up in possible
importance because at least -- in personal finances, that just speaks to
whatever you think of his management character and his own personal
financial situation. The use of this party credit card at least there`s
some whiff of something.

BARRO: Maybe. Except there`s been no suggestion that he ever tried
to --

HAYES: Exactly.

BARRO: And I think people need to understand there are two kinds of
corporate credit cards.


BARRO: There`s like a purchasing card where the card really belongs
to the company, you charge stuff, the bill goes to them and they pay for

There are a lot of these corporate cards that are really -- they`re
either technically your own credit card or they`re shared liability. Where
the bill actually comes to you and then you have to submit the expenses to
your employer if you want them to pay them. That`s the kind of card that
Rubio had.

HAYES: Good point.

BARRO: So there`s charges on it, but there`s been no suggestion he
ever filed paperwork trying to get the Republican Party of Florida to
actually reimburse him for this charge.

HAYES: Yes, that`s a good point.

BARRO: That would be a scandal.

HAYES: Yes, exactly. If he was like oh, I tried to bilk them for
$10,000 for a vacation, that would be a problem. But there`s no evidence
of that.

BARRO: Right. And it`s probably against the rules of use on the
card to put this charge on it even if you never try to get the company to
pay for it depending on which company issued it. But a lot of people share
Netflix passwords. They do other things against terms of use. So long as
he wasn`t actually trying to defraud anybody, and there`s been no
suggestion he was trying to defraud anybody, I don`t see why anybody`s
going to care.

HAYES: Which brings us to me, to the biggest thing, which is the
biggest problem he`s going to face has nothing to do with this. It`s his
immigration policy. Because he is in trench warfare happening over
immigration and he`s just hanging out in the middle.

BARRO: Right. And I mean he took a position that is proving to be
very unpopular with the Republican Party.

HAYES: And now, he`s trying to run away from it and they don`t trust

BARRO: Right. And I think, you know, there`s this split in the
Republican Party. Republican elites want an open immigration policy,
Republican voters do not. And for years, the elites managed to convince
politicians that immigration reform was actually really popular with

HAYES: It`s not.

BARRO: I think Rubio just miscalculated and I think the attacks on
him over that will ratchet up.

HAYES: Yes. Josh Barro, thanks a lot.

BARRO: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Coming up, Elizabeth Warren introduces a new bill
to give Social Security recipients a raise. Senator Warren joins me ahead.


HAYES: A variety of public officials are now weighing in on the
speculation that it was a bomb that took down the Russian plane over the
Sinai Peninsula on Saturday, killing 224 people, and the possibility that
ISIS or an ISIS-affiliated group was behind the possible bomb.

In an interview with a Seattle radio station, President Barack Obama
was very careful when asked if he thought there had been a bomb on board.


yet. You know, whenever you`ve got a plane crash, first of all, you`ve got
the tragedy, you`ve got the making sure that there`s an investigation on
site. I think there is a possibility that there was a bomb on board, and
we`re taking that very seriously.


HAYES: The president added the U.S. will spend a lot of time
listening to investigators and U.S. intelligence before making any
definitive pronouncements about whether it was a bomb or mechanical failure
that caused the crash.

This echoes other notes of caution today from a ranking member of the
House Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff, from the chairman of the Senate
Intelligence Committee, Richard Burr, Republican of North Carolina.
Senator Burr saying, quote, "The fact that some unknown government source
has said it`s this, I can tell you, I mean, we can`t nail it down to one
thing and I dare say, I think we`ve got more information than the British
do, so I think they`ve walked a little further out on the limb."

Now, Britain has taken the lead in suggesting the likelihood of a
bomb on that plane, but flights between Britain and the Sinai Peninsula are
expected to resume tomorrow following an agreement on additional security.
Russian officials and Egyptian officials are pushing back on the bomb

The U.S. does not fly to and from the Sinai Peninsula, but the
Department of Homeland Security is considering enhanced security for
overseas flights from certain countries.



Social Security is all that stands between them and poverty. But not one
of these Americans, not one, will see an extra dime next year.


HAYES: A couple weeks ago, the Social Security Administration
quietly announced an across-the-board benefits freeze in 2016. For just
the third time in four decades, beneficiaries won`t be getting an annual
cost of living adjustment, or COLA. According to the government, inflation
was near zero over the last year, thanks in large part to dramatically
falling gas prices.

But for many senior citizens who are affected more by rising health
care costs than by low gas prices, freezing Social Security benefits is a
very big deal.

Now, one lawmaker has a plan to give beneficiaries a one-time bump to
get them through the next year.

I spoke with Senator Elizabeth Warren, Democrat from Massachusetts,
about the bill she proposed today.


WARREN: For 70 million Americans who count on Social Security, who
count on veterans` benefits, who count on disability benefits and others
that are all related to each other, they`re going to get nothing this year
by way of an increase if we don`t make some changes.

But for 350 CEOs in the largest corporations of America they just got
a raise basically of about 3.9 percent. And that`s a lot of money because
their base rate is already over $16 million on average.

Now, why is this relevant? Is that both of those are related to
federal policies. The first one as you rightly identify has to do with how
the federal government identified COLA and set up the calculations. And
the short answer there is it`s based on about a quarter of the population.
It`s not targeted to the seniors who actually are depending on Social
Security. And as a result, not a very good reflection of their expenses.

But the other one, the CEO pay, where they`ve got their 3.9 percent,
is also the consequence in part of some federal rules. And there it`s the
rule that says corporations can decide how much to pay their CEOs and
that`s fine. But when they do it, the taxpayers are forced to make a
subsidy to that. There`s a giant tax loophole that permits corporations to
be able to deduct a substantial portion of what they`re giving to these

So, here`s what my bill says. It says why don`t we stitch up that
loophole and take exactly that same money, we`re not going to run up the
deficit or anything, just take exactly that money where right now taxpayers
are subsidizing CEOs, how about if we take that money and make a one-time
payment to the Social Security recipients and the vets, make a one-time
payment to make up for the fact that they`re not getting a cost of living
this year? We`ve got the money.

HAYES: This --

WARREN: It`s just how we want to spend it.

HAYES: Here`s my question to you. This sounds like a good idea as
policy goes.


HAYES: But, you know, you`ve got a minority in the Senate. The
author of the Ryan budget which just a few years back the first iteration
of it wanted to essentially privatize Medicare is now the speaker of the
House. Have you had any interest from Republicans on any of this? Is this
a doable, accomplishable thing with the current Congress?

WARREN: So, let me point out that Republicans have criticized this
particular loophole already, which is really interesting. Senator Grassley
has gone after it. Senator McCain partnered up with Senator Levin a couple
of years ago to eliminate this loophole. And the Republicans in the House,
in 2014, said a big part of what they were doing in their whole tax reform
passage -- package included stitching up this loophole.

So, look, here`s the deal. We know how to do this. We know where
the money is. Nobody wants to defend this loophole.

What we need is we just need the momentum to get this done. And what
that means is we need people all across this country to be saying I want
this change. Instead of subsidizing CEO pay, I want that very same money
to be used for people who are living on Social Security and veterans`
benefits and disability benefits. Same money, don`t run up the deficit.
Besides that is an extra bonus, I want to help strengthen Social Security
over the long run.

That makes so much sense. We just need to get out there and get it

By the way, I should say, I`m organizing people at to try to get folks to sign on and to tell senators and
congressmen all across this country make this change, this shouldn`t be
partisan, everybody jump on, let`s make the change.

HAYES: Senator, let me ask you this question. You wrote a great
book called "The Two-Income Trap" before you were senator, and it`s about
the struggles that two-income families, middle-class families face in terms
of mounting debt, and I was curious to get your opinion. Your colleague
Marco Rubio has been getting a lot of attention. He`s obviously running
for president.

A lot of people have been paying attention to his personal finances,
debt that he ran up, student debt, whether it was responsible or not. And
I was curious what your thoughts were on this line of critique, inquiry on
this colleague, particularly because it seems to pertain so closely to
something you`ve been studying and thinking about for so long.

WARREN: You know, what`s interesting to me about it is what do you
take away from it? You know, it`s tough out there. It`s tough for people
trying to get an education. It`s tough for people trying to start out in

So, what do you take away from that? What I want to -- what I think
are the right takeaways are that we need to do more to invest in young
people who are trying to get an education, that we need to do more to raise
wages around this country. We need to do more to protect people who are on
Social Security.

What troubles me about Marco Rubio is for him to live firsthand some
of the squeeze on a lot of Americans across this country and to take away
the message that government should still run for those at the top, that we
need to recapture our government and we need to recapture it so it works
not just for those at the top, not just for millionaires and billionaires,
and those who can hire armies of lobbyists and lawyers. We need to make it
work for Americans, for everybody.

HAYES: Elizabeth Warren, senator from Massachusetts. Thanks for
your time.

WARREN: Thank you.


HAYES: Still ahead, I`ll talk to a former police officer to get his
reaction to Quentin Tarantino`s remarks on our show last night. Stay with


HAYES: Doctors Without Borders, a Nobel Prize-winning humanitarian
group, today released its initial review of a U.S. attack on a Doctors
Without Borders Hospital in Afghanistan on October 3rd, which killed at
least 30 people, in its very detail and troubling report, Doctors Without
Borders dismissed claims the Taliban had been using the hospital as a base,
saying it was a fully functioning hospital with no arms in the premises.
The group also said a U.S. warplane shot people who are trying to flee the
burning hospital after the initial attack.


been several rounds of very targeted and very precise bombing of the
hospital. The hospital went in flames. Patients that couldn`t move burned
in their beds. The shrapnel bombs that they used amputated legs of doctors
and nurses and even one of our staff was decapitated. And on top of that,
what we`ve heard from our staff is that from the plane, people who were
fleeing the building were shot at.


HAYES: U.S. and Afghan officials have given shifting explanations
for what happened, first suggesting U.S. forces had come under attack from
the hospital before it later backtracked.

U.S. and Afghan governments have launched three investigations into
the incident. Doctors Without Borders is calling for an international
inquiry. It considers the attack to be a war crime.



TARANTINO: I`m not a cop hater. But Patrick Lynch, that`s the way
they attack me, is calling me a cop hater. But at the same time, they say
that about anybody who acknowledges that there`s a problem in law
enforcement in this country right now is considered by law enforcement part
of the problem, whether that be me, whether that be Bill de Blasio, whether
that be President Barack Obama.


HAYES: Quentin Tarantino called out the head of New York`s police
union right here last night, which has along with many other police unions
across the country, called for a boycott of his upcoming film "The Hateful

It`s Tarantino`s first television appearance since the controversy
erupted over his comments. He made an anti-police brutality protest and
rally on October 24th. At that seven-hour event, Tarantino said, and I
quote, "I just do also want to say what am I doing here? I`m doing here
because I am a human being with conscience and when I see murder, I cannot
stand by and I have to call the murdered the murdered. And I have to call
the murderers the murderers."

We reached out for further reaction from the New York police union,
the Patrolmen`s Benevolent Association and have not heard back.

Yesterday, the union stood by its original statement condemning
Tarantino`s remarks, that statement referring to Tarantino as a cop hater.

Today, Baltimore`s police union joined the police unions of seven
other cities in calling for a boycott of Tarantino`s new film.

Joining me now, former Baltimore Police Officer Peter Moskos,
associate professor at John Jay College Criminal Justice, author of "Cop in
the Hood" and my friend.

What do we make of this?

Ebert are gone, we`re going to use the FOP for recommendations.

Look, I`m going to see his movies because I like his movies. I don`t
really care what he says on the side. I mean, this in some ways is a made-
up story. It gets reported by FOX News. It inflames the issues.

I mean, do I think Tarantino understands police officers? No, I
don`t. But you know what? A lot of people don`t. That`s not new.

Do I think he overemphasizes the idea that -- well, his point is that
people are unarmed. Well, some of those are still justified shootings.
Cops have been killed by unarmed people.

But you know what the police union could have said in response, short
of nothing? They could have said we too are against murderers and we wish
him the best of luck in his creative endeavors.

HAYES: I have to say, so, I -- this is one of those stories where I
heard the reaction but heard -- before I heard the source which happens
sometimes. You know, a lot --

MOSKOS: Which is a red flag --

HAYES: Right. So, I heard the reaction and then, oh, man, I went to
the tape. You know, look, I understand sensitivity around the word
"murderer." But, you know, there`s certain circumstances, let`s talk about
Walter Scott in North Charleston, where you know, the police officer that
shot that man in the back on the videotape, he is being charged with
murder, right?

MOSKOS: So, call him a murderer.

HAYES: Right. So --

MOSKOS: But he named specific people of officers who were acquitted
by the criminal justice system. They did not commit murder, says our
system, right or wrong, and he`s still calling them murderers. So, of
course, you`re going to be a little peeved if you`re a cop.

HAYES: Yes, you are. But that`s also -- people are going to say
things like that all the time, right? People make independent judgments --
I understand the sensitivity but it`s also like -- I guess my point is, I
expected to go to the tape and see him say down with the pigs, all cops are
bastards or something of that -- that`s what I was expecting.

MOSKOS: My reaction was is that all you`ve got? You`re letting me
down. You can do better than that.

HAYES: Based on the reaction. And it was not that. It does get to
-- there is a real sensitivity around that word which I understand.


HAYES: But it also seems to me he keeps emphasizing if you`re at a -
- one of the things he said to me and this is I think part of this
conversation that keeps lacking, particularly from the statements by the
unions is he was with family members of people who have lost their loved
ones at the hands of police. There`s a broad spectrum of the conditions
under which that might have happened.

But, you know, I think we can all say as human beings that must be a
horrible thing.


HAYES: It must be a horrible thing for that to happen. And the same
way that you can -- anyone I think with a sensitive thinking person says --
looks to the family of Randolph Holder, the police officer shot and killed
in New York and says, that`s terrible, I feel horrible for his family and
colleagues. It doesn`t seem like we`re --


MOSKOS: Benefit of the doubt when he said sort of crazy things about
de Blasio at the cop`s funeral. Would you extend that to the other side?
They`re passionate times.

You`re with families of people who have been killed. Crazy things
are said sometimes. And I just think it splits so predictably on an
ideological line, and just because you have two sides that are living in a
bubble to some extent.

HAYES: Right. But then what`s the play here? I just don`t get
this. Like explain why we have eight police unions now offering
statements, boycotting the Quentin Tarantino movie. What is that about?

MOSKOS: It`s a sense of victimization. It is the sense that they,
meaning the liberal and the mainstream media are out to get us and we --

HAYES: Here`s a perfect example of that, the sort of out of touch
celebrity who`s at this protest.

MOSKOS: Exactly.

HAYES: Yes. Well, we`ll see what happens.

Peter Moskos, always a pleasure to have you here.

MOSKOS: Great to be here.

HAYES: All right. Up next my interview with actor Viggo Mortensen
of "Lord of the Rings" fame. I`ll ask him about his experience expressing
political opinions while being a major public figure.

Stay with us.


HAYES: Quentin Tarantino is far from the only celebrity to have
gotten in trouble for expressing an opinion about politics. I got a chance
to speak with actor, artist and publisher Viggo Mortensen who`s no stranger
to political activism and the backlash it can produce. He`s most famous
for his role as Aragon of the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy. He`s had a long
history of involvement in left politics, including protesting the war in
Iraq in the early 2000s when he was criticized for exploiting his public

Tonight in New York, Mortensen`s doing a reading at Lincoln Center as
part of the 35th anniversary of Howard Zinn`s "A People`s History of the
United States." Got a chance to talk with him and what he thought of the
crazy-firestorm surrounding Quentin Tarantino.


me and it`s not that surprising. I was pleasantly surprised at how
eloquent Quentin was and how calm he was, when he spoke with you. Because
you know, the facts are the facts.

He said what he said. He didn`t say that all cops are murders. He
didn`t say I don`t like the police, I hate the police.

He said there have been incidents that I would agree fully with him
and most people, certain videos that have been seen that are clearly cases
of illegal behavior -- behavior that has been condemned and that has been
judged to be murder in some cases. That`s what he was talking about. And
that the names of those people are worth not only mentioning but defending,
you know? And their families have a right to be heard. To say that and to
be attacked, you`re going to the point of entertainers speaking about

And they are in some ways I suppose easy marks. It`s easy for people
in power, people who are threatened by the statements that they might make,
actors, directors, musicians, you know, sportsmen. They don`t always sound
stupid. Sometimes they actually make sense. And sometimes they have their
facts straight, as Quentin did last night on your show.

And that can be threatening to the status quo. When I say easy
marks, it`s because we say, well, they`re just actors or they`re just
directors, they`re privileged citizens and they should just be quiet. But
the message is whenever you attack the right of one citizen, no matter what
their line of work, or even if they don`t have work, to express their
opinion about what`s going on, you`re attacking all citizens.

HAYES: You know, there`s this sort of cliche about Hollywood, right,
like liberal Hollywood and they`re all liberals and so and so will go and


HAYES: Right. Well --

MORTENSEN: I`ve had plenty of arguments with people in the
entertainment business who differ, you know, with me on politics. Even on
the sense of talking about politics, I mean --

HAYES: See, that`s what I was always wondering --

MORTENSEN: Politics discussed by the politicians. The politics
don`t tell you how to act in your movie.

HAYES: Right.

MORTENSEN: That`s an interesting comment. By don`t think there`s a
very good history of leaving politics to politicians. You know, there`s a
presidential election that seems as interminable as -- you know, I mean,
the permanent state of war that we have been accustomed to for decades from
our government is -- has become sort of the same thing with the
presidential campaigns. They`re kind of round the clock reality shows that
never end.

Donald Trump has thrown a few bombs at Jeb Bush just to get a rise
out of him. And Jeb Bush has been clumsy about it. He doesn`t know what
to say other than sort of to defend his brother. But that`s going to go

And I don`t think Hillary Clinton or any of the Republicans obviously
are going to talk about the real problems and the consequences that we can
see today in the region, you know, of Iraq and the Middle East and West

HAYES: You talk about the sort of reality show of the campaign,
which you know, there is a lot of truth to that. But then also, I mean,
you seem to be following, it right?

MORTENSEN: It`s entertaining.

HAYES: Right.

MORTENSEN: It is. Undoubtedly, but also it`s frightening. Every
candidate has to -- has to some -- at some point use the phrase American or
U.S. exceptionalism. And I find this to be at the root of many of our
problems as a country. Most people in most countries in my travels I found
are decent, hard-working, considerate of others, struggling with life and
death and illness and their families, the education of their children, all
the choices that they have to make from day to day.

People are basically decent everywhere. I don`t know what good it
does to say that they`re better, they`re even better, they`re especially
better, better than all other peoples of the world in the United States. I
mean, United States first of all is made up of people from all over the
place. For me to point that out, it`s like see? There you go.

HAYES: Yes. You will get blacklisted.

MORTENSEN: Yes, sure.


HAYES: That was my interview with actor Viggo Mortensen.

That is ALL IN for this evening.

"THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now live from McHale`s Irish
pub in Rock Hill, North Carolina.

That looks like fun. I`m going to go get me a pint.

Good evening, Rachel.


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