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All In With Chris Hayes, Tuesday, November 10th, 2015

Read the transcript from the Tuesday show

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Date: November 10, 2015
Guest: Jess McIntosh, David Sirota, Olivia Nuzzi, Leah Wright Rigueur,
Josh Barro, Dorian Warren


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a strange election,
isn`t it? Man!

HAYES: It`s debate night in America. And all eyes are on Marco Rubio
and Ben Carson at the fourth Republican debate.

TRUMP: Man, is he sweating?

HAYES: Tonight, previewing the economic debate with a look at each
candidate`s plan for America.


TRUMP: We are reducing taxes.

bring back --

HAYES: A look at the foreshadowed attack from Bush and Trump.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You should be showing up to

HAYES: And full analysis of where each candidate comes down on the
dark side.

Now I kind of feel a little bit sorry for him.

HAYES: And the pyramids of Giza.

DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Joseph built the pyramids
in order to store grain.

HAYES: Plus, your first look at the highlights from the undercard

coming for your wallet. Don`t worry about Huckabee or Jindal. Worry about

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening. From New York, I`m Chris Hayes.

An hour from now, eight Republican presidential candidates take the
stage for their fourth debate, hosted by Fox Business, coming just two
weeks after the CNBC debate widely viewed within the Republican Party as a
disaster, this one similarly focus on economic issues is being seen as a
kind of do-over even though the campaign declined to impose their specific
demands on tonight`s network, a sister to FOX News.

Candidates are likely to get more speaking time. However, for the
first time the main debate field has been winnowed down from ten candidates
to the eight most popular in national polls. Chris Christie and Mike
Huckabee having been demoted to the undercard debate just wrapping up now.

That second tier also shed a couple of candidates. Lindsey Graham and
George Pataki whose support is so low, they don`t get to debate at all.

Taking together, it`s a sign that less than three months to the Iowa
caucuses, an enormous GOP field that started with at least 16 candidates is
finally narrowing down.

Here is the state of the race going into tonight. According to the
Real Clear Politics polling average, Donald Trump and Ben Carson neck and
neck, just shy of a combined 50 percent of all Republican support, trailed
by three candidates who hold or have held elective office -- Marco Rubio,
Ted Cruz and Jeb Bush bringing up the rear.

None of the other candidates break 5 percent. The same time, new
polling today shows every one of the top five would lose to Hillary Clinton
if the election were held today, Ben Carson by the smallest margin.

Clinton`s poll numbers may have something to do with the Wi-Fi
password of the debate venue tonight, stop Hillary. That`s in the press
filing center, getting every last report there who chronicle the debate
will be forced to type it in. There`s an RNC operative out there is very
proud of himself tonight.

When the candidates take the stage in less than an hour from now, all
eyes will be on co-front-runner Ben Carson who is struggling to adapt to
heightened security that comes with the quasi-co-front-runner status, after
reporters started questioning certain aspects of his much vaunted
biography, Carson seemed to lose his trademark "cool" for the first time
while facing the press on Friday.

He continued to take questions about some of his past business
dealings, among other things.


REPORTER: Why were you involved at all, whatever the relationship
was, in a company that was selling a product the Texas attorney general
says is a sham product?

CARSON: Well, remember, they contacted me to give a speech. I did
not, you know, go into great depth when I get a contract to do a speech. I
go to do a speech.

REPORTER: I talked to a microbiologist who said there is no
scientific proof it works at all.

CARSON: It may not. And all I say is I take it because I almost
never get sick anymore. I used to get sick a lot. So, I like it.


HAYES: Similarly, Marco Rubio, crowned the winner of the last debate
by the pundits, is undergoing a new level scrutiny over his personal
finances and now, Donald Trump seems to sense an opening.


TRUMP: Everyone says Marco Rubio is a wonderful speaker. I said,
really? Remember when he was doing the message to the president? Remember
the thing with the water?

Now, the president has just spoken, right? He`s doing the message.
And he`s talking. I noticed and I said, man, is he sweating. And then,
all of the sudden, and we will fight and we will this -- and it wasn`t out
of a glass. It was out of a bottle. I don`t know, maybe he got paid from
the company that had the -- I don`t know.


HAYES: A super PAC supporting Ted Cruz just put out an ad hitting
Marco Rubio over his support for comprehensive immigration reform derided
by conservative as, quote, "amnesty". And now, "The New York Times"
reports, Jeb Bush`s super PAC is planning up to $20 million worth of
attacks on the Florida senator, including a video casting him as
unelectable in the long run because of his hard-line stance on abortion.

The question for tonight: Will either Cruz or Bush be willing to take
Rubio on face to face?

Joining me now, Republican strategist and MSNBC contributor, Steve

And, Steve, are you anticipating people coming after Rubio from both
sides tonight?

STEVE SCHMIDT, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely. Marco Rubio is on the
rise. And we are moving into the stage of the race where the candidates
are conscious of who goes when they go down and vice versa.

So, when you look at the race tonight, Donald Trump would make a
grievous mistake if here to attack Ben Carson. The person who benefits
chiefly by Ben Carson going down in the race is Ted Cruz who doesn`t have
much room to grow outside of Carson coming down.

HAYES: Right.

SCHMIDT: Trump is effective when he`s fighting from his right to his
left against these establishment candidates. And fighting that in economic
debate through a prism of economic nationalism with a populist tent, and
you will see him tonight. Two big departures from Republican orthodoxy
will challenge interests and you will hear him challenge the free trade

Most of the establishment Republicans on the stage, ardent free
traders, Trump is going to decry the trade deals. He`s going to talk about
repealing NAFTA.

But Marco Rubio tonight is in the middle of the action. These
previous debates, he`s been like a supporting actor, really strong
performances, got people`s attention. But he comes into this and some
degree the star of show. Now, once again, Jeb Bush`s campaign is
telegraphed the punches they will throw at Marco Rubio. And in debates,
like in boxing, most knock-outs come on the counterpunch. You saw that
devastating counterpunch that Marco Rubio delivered in the last debate that
did such damage to Jeb Bush.

But Jeb Bush coming into this debate, in order for him to come back
up, in order for Jeb Bush to have a comeback, Marco Rubio has got to come

HAYES: I want to talk about it. The telegraphing of the attack which
is the second time the Bush camp has seemed to do this. Now, in this case,
these are people close to the super PAC. So, one argument he`d say, look,
legally, the Bush folks in the campaign can`t control what the super PAC is
doing although the degree whether that`s true is up for debate.

Can you explain why you would go to a reporter to talk about your
nefarious plans to go after your opponent on -- and the way you`re going to
do it on the eve of a debate like you did the last time, which resulted in
that sort of devastating counter-punch moment?

SCHMIDT: Well, look, it`s a quansi (ph) move for sure. One of the
thing that`s under appreciated, Chris, by most people in the media, there
are felony criminal provisions for coordinating between a campaign and a
super PAC. In fact, I think it`s very, very rarely done.

The way super PACs communicate to the campaign and vice versa is
through the media.

HAYES: Exactly.

SCHMIDT: And so, you see that playing out. But not something you
want to announce, coming into the debate. So you know, looking at the
level of preparation that we saw from Marco Rubio in the last debate, he`s
going to be ready on a number of different fronts from a predictable line
of attacks that are going to come possibly from Trump, from Jeb Bush or
others in the field.

HAYES: You know, it was interesting to me in the article that the
notion of electability. Just watching the undercard debate which should be
wrapping up and Chris Christie basically focused the entire time on
electability. I can beat Hillary Clinton.

This is something you haven`t heard at all. I mean, thus far, no one
is trying to make an argument that I`m the most electable. It`s basically
been who excites the base most.

And I wonder, at some point, someone is going to start making the
argument like, really, guys? Donald Trump? You really think he`ll go and
win Ohio? Do you really think he can win the swing states? Are we going
to see that tonight?

SCHMIDT: Well, look, it`s tough to make an electability argument as
in I`m the most electable candidate when you are fifth or sixth place.

HAYES: Right.

SCHMIDT: So, I think Jeb Bush has a hard time making that argument
vis-a-vis Marco Rubio right now. And, certainly, as we move deeper when
the voting starts, only Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio, one of the two will be
eliminated after the results at a Florida primary. They both won`t survive
that. Whoever loses, I think, is out of the race.

I would say tonight, very strong performance by Chris Christie in that
under card debate. He should be on the main debate stage. The statistical
analysis that got him booted off is deeply flawed. It`s a TV calculation.
Not a mathematical, statistical calculation. And when you look at --

HAYES: Perish the thought, Steve. Perish the thought.

SCHMIDT: Right. When you look at Chris Christie, the video that`s
gone viral talking about drug addiction, this is a huge issue in New
Hampshire. And while Jeb Bush has a lot of difficulty in his campaign, we
shouldn`t underestimate his capacity to inflict damage on Marco Rubio. And
if Marco Rubio starts to bleed in this race and he starts to come down,
look for Chris Christie to start to peak up.

Chris Christie`s numbers are rising in New Hampshire. He`s on a level
of ascent that`s not so dissimilar from where McCain was in 2008. And if
Christie can keep those numbers moving up as we get into Thanksgiving, the
period between Thanksgiving and Christmas, you could see Chris Christie
making a late move in New Hampshire.

HAYES: All right. Steve Schmidt, thank you very much.

SCHMIDT: You bet.

HAYES: I`m joined now by Jess McIntosh, VP of communications from
Emily`s List, an organization that`s endorsed Hillary Clinton, and David
Sirota, senior editor for investigations at the "International Business

I want to talk about Rubio. David, you had a great piece in
"International Business Times" basically about the fact that Rubio, his
book contains passages that are essentially seemed to be endorsing the
tenets of Obamacare, endorsing the energy policies from before when he was
a senator, when he was a state senator.

That strikes me as a massive opening for Jeb Bush, much more than
electability argument over abortion.

laid out a book of innovative ideas. In the chapter on health care, he
talked about vastly expanding government-run health care programs. He
talked about setting up insurance exchanges.

This is a kind of reminder of Mitt Romney being one of the originators
of RomneyCare which became Obamacare. That term "Obamacare" has become
such a hot button term that you may see in the debates people saying you
supported Obamacare, you proposed in Florida.

HAYES: The key to me about that, Jess, is the way they are going for
Marco Rubio and the reason this is so clarifying and you have seen it from
Ted Cruz, they are going after him because of comprehensive immigration
reform. He was part of the gang of eight, in the words of Ted Cruz`s super
PAC, what has ever he done? And it`s true legislatively, that`s the thing
he`s most known for. And he`s going to have to defend himself as sort of
not being a RINO.

And take what David was talking about his book, that strikes me as the
way you`re going to go after Marco Rubio, if you`re sort of attacking him
from the right.

JESS MCINTOSH, EMILY`S LIST: Yes, logically, that makes sense. I
think there is enough in Rubio`s record you can go at him from the right as
being too aligned with Democrats on healthcare, on government intervention
in general, and certainly on the immigration issue.

My guess is they are looking at polling that says being against
abortion access for rape and incest victims is an absolute makes you
unelectable nonstarter. And they have decided to go with the attack they
know is going to move the most people. It is not a comfortable rhetorical
tactic for them. Obviously -- especially since Jeb Bush`s record is awful.
He tried to intervene to force a rape victim who was disabled teen to carry
her pregnancy to term as governor.

So, this is an odd place for him to come from. But I`ve seen numbers
and they are horrible for the position that Marco Rubio holds on abortion.
He`s really extreme.

So, I think they chose between -- the attack that made a little bit
more logical sense as a Republican, and the one they think can work.


MCINTOSH: I`m glad they chose that one. I want to see this fight.

HAYES: I agree. I think it`s a clarifying fight.

SIROTA: And I also think you`re going to see a management argument.
I mean, this idea that Jeb Bush has managed an entire state. And Marco
Rubio managed a state legislative office or state -- a senator`s office.
You`re going to hear -- you may hear an argument where Jeb Bush says, look,
we`ve had a president without enough experience coming into office.

HAYES: That`s their line.

SIROTA: That`s their line. And I think he may try to tie into that
Marco Rubio`s trouble with his own finances. The Marco Rubio`s -- the kind
of controversies over him going into debt or using credit cards and running
up personal bills on political organizations bills. So, you may see a
management argument from Jeb Bush.

The question is, does that really move anyone forward?

HAYES: Yes, it seems like -- first of all, I think the management
argument, that horse has left the barn at least for now. I mean, the big
question to me going into tonight is, do we see folks looking for someone
they plausibly think can beat Hillary Clinton, right? I mean, at a certain
point, that has to factor into the minds.

And I think, Jess, one of the interesting things is the Republican --
the conservative media bubble has I think convinced themselves that Hillary
Clinton is a terrible candidate who will be defeated easily. And so, it is
not a priority to imagine someone who will be the most formidable against

I wonder if the polling today and her solidifying certain kinds of
support changes the dynamic.

MCINTOSH: I think it could. I think they have always underestimated
her at their own peril. I`m thrilled they are continuing to do it. I
think this electorate just isn`t interested in the electability argument.
This is an electorate that is really passionate. They are moving with
their emotions.

They don`t want anything that sounds like politics, that sounds like
politics as usual or politicians as usual. It`s why they don`t care that
they don`t know about Ben Carson and he`s leading. It`s why they don`t
care that they don`t know about Ben Carson and he`s leading.

They don`t care that Donald Trump is an absolute buffoon who almost
certainly can`t be elected. They still want him and they don`t care about
those logical arguments.

So, I don`t know if -- I mean, the political donor card may shift into
who can get it done for Republicans. But I don`t see voters following
them. These guys don`t seem swayed by that kind of argument this cycle.

SIROTA: The quick thing to add, though, is it`s difficult for Jeb
Bush to make a "Marco Rubio is too moderate" argument.

HAYES: Right.

SIROTA: Jeb Bush is perceived to be moderate. Jeb Bush has endorsed
a lot of Marco Rubio`s policies. So, that`s a tough argument for Jeb Bush.

HAYES: There`s also --

MCINTOSH: Jeb Bush is terrible at hitting Marco Rubio in general.
So, he`s endorsed him as somebody who could be a good president.

HAYES: Right. There is also, David, I`m curious to see when people
get into the weeds on economic policy. You know, one of the things you
will see is there is a lot of talk about cronyism. There`s been a lot of
talk about cleaning up Washington.

You`ve been doing some sort of great investigative report that shows,
you know, how close Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio and others have been to the
very same crony entities that they sort of talk about.

SIROTA: Well, when Jeb Bush says, I want to clean up Washington or
I`m a change agent of Washington, before you get to how close he is to the
lobbying community in Washington, he`s a Bush. I mean, he`s the brother of
a president, the son of a president.

I think as these candidates make arguments "I`m a change agent", there
is going to be more scrutiny about how much they represent a lot of the
same. And I should add both for the Republicans and for the Democrats. I
mean, Hillary Clinton has a lot of people around her who were part of the
same kind of transpartisan establishment.


All right. Jess McIntosh and David Sirota, thank you both.

SIROTA: Thank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, the vetting of Ben Carson -- why seemingly
irrelevant anecdotes from his past are facing such intense scrutiny.

Plus, much more debate night coverage, including highlights from what
is already being called the deuce box debate. The greatest hits from the
Republican undercard are next.


CHRISTIE: I`m one of the victims of that hack. If the Chinese commit
cyber warfare against us, they are going to see cyber warfare like they
have never seen before.




CARSON: Well, the pyramids were made in a way that they have
hermetically sealed compartments. You don`t need hermetically sealed
compartments for a sepulcher. You would need that if you were trying to
preserve grain over long period of time.


HAYES: That`s Ben Carson last week continuing to stand by his
idiosyncratic position that the pyramids in Egypt were built not as tombs
for the pharaohs, as is widely believed, but instead by the biblical figure
Joseph in order to store grain. That particular theory has been widely
criticized and teased, including by Carson`s GOP presidential rival Donald
Trump, a man who likes to think of himself of something of an expert on how
to build things.


TRUMP: Hey, look, I hope everything is OK with Ben. I`ve gotten
along great with Ben. But, you know, he`s having a hard time.

The pyramids are solid structures. You can`t put grain in the
pyramids because they are solid structures, other than a little thing for
the pharaohs in the bottom as you understand, OK? They don`t have beams
going across connecting and big hollow spaces underneath. They are solid.
So, I don`t quite get that one.


HAYES: Perhaps the most credible fact checkers are the Egyptian
antiquity officials who yesterday gathered to discuss thermal scans of the
pyramids that could lead to new discoveries about their construction.

An "Associated Press" reporter took the opportunity to ask the
Egyptian antiquities minister for a response to Carson`s theory. The
reporter got one, sort of. Quote, "Does he even deserve a response? He
doesn`t", the antiquities minister the "AP".

We don`t have video of that particular exchange, so you`ll just have
to imagine the look on the pyramid expert`s face.



CHRISTIE: Wait until you see what Hillary Clinton will do to this
country and how she will drown us in debt. She is the real adversary
tonight and we better stay focused as Republicans on her.

But the bottom line is, believe me, Hillary Clinton is coming for your
wallet, everybody. Don`t worry about Huckabee or Jindal, worry about her.


HAYES: The undercard debate of this evening is over and it was
notable even before it begun for its somewhat changed cast of characters.
Governor Christie having demoted from the main event of past debates
because his polling average wasn`t high enough, joined former Senator Rick
Santorum, Governor Bobby Jindal, former Governor Mike Huckabee also dropped
down to undercard debate, fondly referred to probably not by any of these
men as the kids` table.

Senator Lindsey Graham and former Governor George Pataki couldn`t even
qualify for the undercard debate this time, joining former Governor Jim
Gilmore in Siberia.

Tonight, even when Governor Jindal repeatedly tried to bait Governor
Christie, the New Jersey governor kept his sights on Hillary Clinton.


leadership in New Jersey, your budget has gone up 15 percent, it`s gone
down 26 percent in Louisiana. It has gone up $5 billion in New Jersey.
It`s going down $9 billion in Louisiana.

CHRISTIE: You know, the differences between me and Bobby. We can
talk about those and obviously Bobby wants to spend a lot of time tonight
talking about that.

I tell you want I want to talk about. I want to talk about what`s
going to happen to this country if we have another four years of Barack
Obama`s policies. By the way, it will be even worse, because Hillary
Clinton is running so far to the left to try to keep up to her socialist
opponent Bernie Sanders, it`s hard to even see her anymore.

JINDAL: You expanded food stamps at a time we`ve got record numbers
of Americans on food stamps. It`s also true, you caved in to Obamacare.
You`ve expanded Medicaid.

CHRISTIE: I complimented Bobby. Imagine how much time he`d want if I
actually criticized him.

JINDAL: Chris, look, I`ll give you a ribbon for participation in a
deuce box. But in the real world, it`s about results. It`s about actually
cutting government spending.


HAYES: By the end, candidates were sometimes simply ignoring the
moderator`s questions.


MODERATOR: Who in Congress do you most admire on the Democratic side?
I need one name from each of you. Let`s start with Governor Jindal.

JINDAL: Look, we can waste our time. And I think this is why people
are frustrated with the last debate with these silly questions.


We`ve only got a certain amount of time to talk about the economy.
Let me use my time to say that I want to fire everybody in D.C. in both

the question, tomorrow is veterans` day.

and why I respect them? Because they fight. They are not willing to back
down. They are willing to stand up, fight and win. I respect them because
they are willing to take it to us.


HAYES: Joining me now, Olivia Nuzzi. She`s political correspondent
for "The Daily Beast".

Olivia, I thought that was such a fascinating moment because, of
course, the shadow of the CNBC debate hung over the whole thing. You had
the FOX folks saying CNBC mismanaged the debate. Here you have the
candidates quite straightforwardly steam rolling the moderators, getting
the crowd on their side and completely ignoring the questions.

OLIVIA NUZZI, THE DAILY BEAST: It was amazing. I will say that.
Jindal started it, right? Jindal was on fire tonight. He was trying to
fight with everybody.

And after Jindal said he wouldn`t answer their ridiculous question,
what could the other candidates do? They couldn`t say, well, I`ll answer
that ridiculous question. They had to follow his lead or else look like
weak liberals, I don`t know. But it was amazing.

HAYES: It`s also telling that none of them wanted to have a moment in
which they expressed admiration or respect for a Democrat in Congress.

NUZZI: No, I mean, interesting. It happened during the Democratic
Forum on this network when Rachel Maddow asked Hillary Clinton which of the
Republican candidates would you choose as your running mate? She also
wouldn`t answer the question. Any candidate is concerned they will
accidentally endorse someone from the opposite party. I don`t think any of
them are particularly eager to do it.

HAYES: So, as you said, Jindal was just up there basically strafing
the entire field. He had clearly read his oppo book on everyone. He was -
- and this dynamic between him and Christie was fascination. He was going
hard at Christie`s record. Chris Christie completely declined to defend
his record. I mean, Jindal would come out at him and saying, you did this
as governor. He says, I want to talk about Hillary Clinton, again and

It was interesting, A, because I think it was hard for Chris Christie
to defend his record in New Jersey to a Republican primary audience and, B,
Chris Christie sees his best chance about making this about his possibility
of beating Hillary Clinton.

NUZZI: Certainly, and it reminded me about when Jindal trying to
attack Donald Trump and Donald Trump said on Twitter saying, "I only speak
to people polling in a certain number in the polls. I won`t speak to Bobby
Jindal because he`s not popular enough."

I think he`s sort of taking a page from that Trump playbook, to say,
you know, I`m too big for this, I`m too presidential to be here on this
very sad stage with all these sad people. And I`m just going to act like
I`m already in the general election.

And I think it was a good strategy in that he looked for presidential
than any of the other candidates on stage. He certainly seemed more
presidential than Bobby Jindal who seemed like someone who just was going
to tear the party apart from the inside. But whether or not that`s going
to -- whether or not that message Christine is putting forth is really
going to appeal to a Republican primary audience, I`m not so sure.

HAYES: There was an odd "take my wife, please" moment with Mike
Huckabee. I want to play this and get your reaction. Take a listen.


MODERATOR: If elected president, would you keep Janet Yellen?

HUCKABEE: Well, my wife`s name is Janet. When you say Janet yelling,
I`m very familiar with what you mean.


HAYES: Nailed it. That`s a question about whether or not he would
retain the current Fed Chair Janet Yellen. But I think it played well, but
I don`t think that`s the joke Republicans want to be making a lot down the

NUZZI: It played well in the room. But I think it`s very -- it`s
just typical of Mike Huckabee to say something awkward. I wrote a story
last week. He just said very awkward things about his personal life, about
sex in general, when it really isn`t called for and it`s not part of the
topic. He does it all the time.

And it keeps happening in such a way -- he was talking about, you
know, the private sector being more successful than the public sector. And
he brought up Viagra, for some reason, as an example of this. He says
strange things I don`t think will play well beyond a room like tonight in

HAYES: You know, it was striking. They started off the debate, I
think admirably, they were going on economic policy and substance. It
became very clear quickly why television why television producers producing
these debates haven`t spent a lot of time on the substantive questions,
because there was no daylight, because if you asked them about taxes, you
get the same answer from everyone, nearly identical, essentially carbon
copy, I`m going to reduce regulation, I`m going to cut taxes and Barack
Obama is terrible for this economy because he`s socialist and Hillary
Clinton will be even more socialist. That`s it.

I mean, I didn`t hear disagreement out there about economic policy.

NUZZI: I think the big secret here is all of the candidates pretty
much believed the same thing when it comes to economic policy and when it
comes to other issues as well. When it comes to social issues, most of
them believe the same thing. And I think that`s why they can`t answer
these questions directly. They can`t have the substantive debate that
Bobby Jindal was trying to have about the budget, because they don`t want
to admit that, you know, they all pretty much think the same thing. Some
of them have been less successful than others in implementing their

Chris Christie being the prime example. His budgets have been bigger
than Bobby Jindal`s. His budgets were bigger than some of Jon Corzine`s
budget, his Democratic predecessor.

I think it`s just very difficult for them to talk about issues of
substance. It doesn`t play well. I mean, Donald Trump is who they are
running against now. He`s not someone who will go out and talk about
substance. He`s going to talk about who`s a loser, who`s ugly, who`s
sweating too much, who`s going to rap, he`s going to do all sorts of
different things.

I think it`s just -- you know, it`s just -- this is what the primary
is about. It`s about trying to one-up Donald Trump and not talk about
anything of substance at all.

HAYES: Alright, Olivia Nuzzi, thank you very much.

NUZZI: Thank you.

HAYES: Still coming up, after the revolt on the last Republican
debate stage, how are tonight`s moderators preparing to reign in all eight

A look at that next.


HAYES: Ahead of tonight`s debate, Neil Cavuto, the extremely
conservative FOX News and FOX Business host, and one of three debate
moderators in the event tonight, characterized the dynamic of the debate
this way.

"I understand candidates getting annoyed," he told the Washington
Post, "but they better be careful about looking like whiners and babies."

Looks like Cavuto is taking a preemptive shot to avoid the histrionics
in the CNBC debate, but, it appears the whining has already begun.

According to The Daily Mail, an aide to one GOP White House hopeful,
who will stand before him on Tuesday, spelled out some worries while asking
to remain anonymous. "It`s not lost on my boss that Neil interned in the
Jimmy Carter White House."

Neil Cavuto, FOX News, is suspect because three decades ago he
interned for Carter.

And there is a debate moderator Maria Bartiromo who four years ago was
one of the moderators for a debate hosted by her former employer, CNBC,
angered the crowd with this question to candidate Herman Cain.


MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX BUSINESS NETWORK: In recent days we have learned
that four different women have accused you of inappropriate behavior. Here
we`re focusing on character and on judgment.

You have been a CEO --

[ booing ]


BARTIROMO: You know the shareholders are reluctant to hire a CEO
where there are character issues.

Why should the American people hire a president if they feel there are
character issues?

CAIN: The American people deserve better than someone being tried in
the court of public opinion based on unfounded accusations.

[ cheers and applause ]


HAYES: Gerard Baker, editor in chief of The Wall Street Journal will
be the third moderator tonight. In the wake of the collective CNBC debate
tantrum thrown by the candidates in the last debate, all eyes will be on
how the moderators comport themselves, but the candidates new demands, you
may recall, do not apply
to tonight`s debate on FOX Business.

According to The Washington Post, among the reasons, according to one
operative in the room, is that people are afraid to make Roger Ailes mad,
a reference to the network chief.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let me ask you flat out whether you stand by the
claim that you -- as a young man, as a 14-year-old boy, attempted to stab
another boy and attacked your mother with a hammer.

BEN CARSON, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Those claims are absolutely

I am 100% sure they are true. This is simply an attempt to smear and
to deflect the argument to something else.


HAYES: To many Ben Carson supporters, questions about whether or not
past stories are true are nothing more than a smear campaign by the so-
called liberal media.

We just blow off the media, said a retired piano teacher in Ames, Iowa
that supports Mr. Carson. We stop getting the newspaper. We watch FOX News
and listen to
the radio.

If you are predicting how the flurry surrounding his memoir would play
out, so far it`s done essentially nothing to damage his popularity among

A news Washington Post, ABC News poll out today, conducting amid much
of the controversy about some of his past recollections, has Carson leading
the pack with a 71% favorable rating.

Another survey out today has Carson pulling the highest in the
theoretical match up against Hillary Clinton.

Due to his popularity and his mild mannered, if slightly odd
disposition, candidates other than Donald Trump have been reticent to
attack Dr. Carson.

One of the big questions going into tonight`s debate is if one of the
other candidates in a two hour discussion about views and economic policy,
will actually try to go after Carson on that area.

Joining me now, Leah Wright Rigueur, she`s an assistant professor of
public policy at The Harvard Kennedy School, author of The Loneliness of
the Black Republican, which is a wonderfully evocative title.

Given that you wrote a book about the experience of being a black
Republican, a black conservative in more recent terms, as you watched the
Carson campaign
unfold, particularly over the last week, can you account for the

It`s unfolded in such a strange fashion, this back and forth about
change in the biography, and I can`t quite figure out what`s going on.

Chris, that`s a great point. It is a little bit strange, and part of that
is because it`s sitting on an American redemption story. It`s an American
dream story. It`s about really pulling yourself up by your boot straps,
about overcoming the odds, and about succeeding against everything being
against you.

That`s why there is a lot of popularity, or that`s why there`s a lot
of support around Carson, and why people are really rallying around him.

Despite all of the odd and a little weird particulars here and there.

HAYES: That explains why you have this weird, sort of bizarro world
situation for about 48 hours, in which the knock on the candidate was that
he was
not a violent young man. That he had not hit his mother with a hammer, and
that he had not stabbed someone with a knife. And the campaign was hitting
back by being like, no, he absolutely hit his mother with a hammer, and
absolutely stabbed someone.

Because it`s important for that biography to be there to get that

RIGUEUR: In fact, going out and saying we have people to counteract
liberal media`s claims that he didn`t stab someone. Here, we have
Because this is not a normal story. This is not a normal part of
presidential politics.

This is part of his uplift story. And this is part of what makes him
so appealing to so many different audiences. Among them, white Republicans.

HAYES: There is a sense -- Rupert Murdoch got in trouble for tweeting
about basically Ben Carson being authentically black in a way that Barack
Obama is not.

He later retracted and apologized for that.

But there is something happening with the conception of him and his
blackness that seems to be at the heart of his appeal.

RIGUEUR: Right. And I think a lot of this goes into his likability.

So white Republican voters, likely voters, love him. They think he`s
honest. They think he has integrity. They think he represents their values.

But he also emerges as a kind of blackness that they can understand,
and that they can like. That he`s a good black person who`s overcome all of
the odds, without relying on certain things.

I think it`s no accident that Carson is emerging in popularity amongst
white Republican voters at the same time that campus unrest, that Black
Lives Matter, that things like that are actually taking off in steam and

HAYES: It`s been a hallmark of Barack Obama`s political career, this
desire on the part of his political opponents to find a black adversary
that could defeat him.

Alan Keyes was recruited to run against him in Illinois, there was
that moment when Herman Cain, people rallied around him in 2012.

Obviously, Barack Obama`s not on the ballot this time, but the sense
by white
Republicans that they have been smeared as racists, and that this is proof
positive of how liveless the claim is.

RIGUEUR: Well, right. He offers them a little bit of protection. He
validates concerns, and he says, you know, look, I have a black friend, I
can`t be racist.

But I also want to push back a little bit, or at least flip it a
little bit.
Think a little bit about how Carson actually has support amongst some black


RIGUEUR: So that goes in a different direction than what we would
traditionally understand.

A new poll just came out that said actually that if Carson were to
match up with Hillary Clinton tomorrow, 20% of African Americans would
support him.

That kind of support is unheard of amongst Republican candidates.
That`s amazing.

HAYES: That`s a massive margin. In fact, that is one of the most
fascinating sort of counter factual questions. Were he the nominee, what
his share of African American votes would be.

You know, Barack Obama won upwards of I think 98%, somewhere in that

You could see something more like margins of 80%. We may never know,
but it will be fascinating to track as we go along.

Leah Wright Rigueur, thanks for joining us.

RIGUEUR: Well thanks for having me Chris.

HAYES: Still ahead, a preview of tonight`s main debate and what this
crop of
candidates doesn`t want you to know about GOP economics.

Stay with us.


HAYES: Marco Rubio may have officially lost the Star Wars vote.

A week after he tweeted his support for Star Wars over Star Trek, he
was asked in New Hampshire whether he had a favorite character and owned
any Star Wars action figures growing up.


action figures. I think I had the Death Star. But it kept breaking, just
like it did in part two, and in Empire Strikes Back because it blew up, and
that guy got the rocket to go in the hole.


HAYES: That guy got the rocket to go in the hole?

Star Wars fans know there are many things wrong with the statement,
and the ComicCon crowd on my staff, who are formidable, want me to explain
in great, extensive detail how Rubio mixed up the movies and called Luke
Skywalker that guy, which I won`t do, but at least we now know when Marco
Rubio is missing some senate votes, it is not to watch Star Wars movies.

We`ll talk about Rubio`s tax plan next, which does belong in the
fantasy genre.

HAYES: In just a few minutes, the fourth Republican presidential
debate of the 2016 cycle will begin.

The moderators say they will focus on business and economic issues.
And the central tenant of the economic policy in the Republican party
today, just as it was in 2000 when George W. Bush was running for
president, is huge tax cuts that will
require either historically unprecedented cuts to services, or blow a
massive hole in the deficit, with the benefits going disproportionately to
the rich.

Ted Cruz wants a 10 percent flat tax, which would be a massive tax cut
for the top 1 percent of households, which are currently paying roughly
26.5 percent on average.

Both right and left leaning groups found that Donald Trump`s tax plan
could lead to at least a $10 trillion revenue loss over a decade.

More than half of Jeb Bush`s tax cuts will go to the top 1 percent,
according to Citizens for Tax Justice, with the top 1 percent getting an
average tax cut of nearly $180,000.

Ben Carson`s plan, a 15% flat tax based on the biblical idea of
tithing, would by his own math create a $1 trillion hole, according to

Marco Rubio`s plan would reduce federal revenue by 11.8 trillion over
the next decade, according to Citizens for Tax Justice, with more than a
third of the benefits going directly to the top 1%.
Since Marco Rubio has promised not to cut defense budget or benefits
current or near retirees, Jonathan Chait notes that, to pay for Rubio`s
cuts, Medicaid, veterans health insurance, transportation, border security
and education, not to mention the entire federal anti-poverty budget other
than Medicare and
Social Security, would have to go.

This bidding war over who can cut taxes the most, particularly to the
most rich, has, in the words of Paul Krugman on this show, makes George W.
Bush look cautious and statesmen like in comparison.

Up ahead, the first question I would ask the GOP candidates in
tonight`s debate. It`s one, I suspect, might make them squirm.

That`s next.


HAYES: Joining me now to preview tonight`s GOP debate, MSNBC
contributor, Josh Barro, correspondent for The Upshot. New York Times and
MSNBC contributor, Dorian Warren, he`s a fellow at The Roosevelt Institute.

Alright gentlemen, so I thought there was a lot of economic policy
that I`m curious about.

One of the problems is illustrated in the first debate earlier today.
If you ask questions about certain economic policy you get a lot of similar

The first question I would ask, the one I`m really interested in is,
should there be a federal minimum wage?

I think you would actually get some different answers among the folks

JOSH BARRO, THE UPSHOT: Yeah, I don`t think you will get anybody
saying it should be higher. You get a lot of Republican candidates saying
basically, I don`t think we should change it. I think the system is fine
the way it is.

HAYES: And then you get others who would basically say to abolish it.
I mean, Carly Fiorina says it`s basically unconstitutional. Rand Paul would
probably get rid of it.

BARRO: I don`t know. I e-mailed her campaign after she said there is
constitutional basis for it. I didn`t get a response as to whether she
really meant that it was unconstitutional.

The thing to keep in mind is so many states have higher minimum wage
than the federal minimum wage. The federal minimum wage, where it is now,
has almost no effect on the labor market.

So, abolishing it would have almost no effect on the economy, would
obviously be massively unpopular. So I think a lot of these candidates
realize that`s not a fight to fight even if you think the minimum wage is
bad policy.

HAYES: Dorian, I thought there was a moment in the first debate in
which they asked the candidates basically, look, the jobs record is 8.6
million private sector jobs created in the Obama presidency, unemployment
nudging down around 5%.

How can you criticize the Obama jobs record?

And Rick Santorum had a really interesting response to it. He said,
well, just listen to the Democrats. The hollowing out of the middle class.
He basically said you know, listen to the Democratic debate.

And the trick for me is how do you make the critique of the Obama
economy from the right when so much is about these issues that are kind of
bread and butter to Democrats and progressives?

because Rick Santorum is definitely going for the working class position of
the Republican party. So he`s actually on this issue closer to Democrats
than he is to all of his comrades in the Republican party.

But, the thing is, Republicans are at a disadvantage whenever wages
comes up, because this is an issue that turns out Democratic voters.

In a recently released poll that`s innovative because it polls workers
who make $15 an hour or less, 69% of those polled who are unregistered said
that they would turn out to vote -- they would register and turn out to
vote, if there was a candidate who came out in favor of $15 and a union.

So, this is at a disadvantage for Republicans in terms of the turn out
game next fall, a year from now.

HAYES: Josh is shaking his head in skepticism of that.

BARRO: I mean we saw a bunch of states in 2014 that had ballot
measures about minimum wage increases and they passed massively and they
did Democrats no good down ballot.

WARREN: Tom Cotton, who ran for the senate in Arkansas, actually came
out not against the minimum wage because he understood the politics wasn`t
on his side.

BARRO: No, and I understand that, but it wasn`t just that there was
four states around the country where they put them on the ballot and they
passed. Minimum wage increases are popular, but I mean when you poll voters
in general and ask them will you vote, they tend to say yes, whether or not
they are actually going to register and vote.

I don`t think we have seen an example where Democrats have
successfully used the minimum wage issue in order to get broad electoral

Now, the minimum wage matters in itself, and you know, arguing for
higher minimum wage because it is good policy is a perfectly fine thing,
but I don`t think we have seen really directly affect voter behavior.

HAYES: Part of the issue it strikes me, Dorian, that Republicans
have, I have seen this critique actually made by conservatives, is that the
kind of core domestic policy plank, which is tax cuts, right, is --

WARREN: In good times and bad.

HAYES: In good times and bad. No matter what the malady is, the
prescription is tax cuts. So, you have slow growth, tax cuts. High growth,
tax cuts. Small deficits, tax cuts. Big deficits, tax cuts.

That`s taken in some ways from the Reagan playbook, and I think the
GOP has really failed to reckon that the economy right now is just very
different than the economy Reagan had. Taxes are lower across the board.

So, even when you poll people their tax burden isn`t ranking up there
in front of that and yet, that`s what the GOP field has to offer.

WARREN: The isn`t the context of Reagan. This isn`t the context of
George W. Bush, who you start off with in terms of the early 2000s tax

We`re at a different moment now of 30 years of wage stagnation, and we
are in a political moment where there is movement energy.

Today there was this massive wave of protest on the three year
anniversary on the Fight for 15. Thousands of workers went on strike.
People around the country are actually waking up.

When you poll them, they know that this is something that`s happening
in their cities and their communities around the country. They are very

So, this is actually an issue residence for more and more people today
than it was in Reagan`s time.

So, to Josh`s point, I think actually because the issue is more
salient now, because we are in a movement moment, I actually think we are
likely to see people willing to register and vote and turn out around this
issue if a politician is
guaranteeing to raise wages.

HAYES: So here`s the question I have right. I mean, a complaint of
I`m overtaxed, which Dorian is speaking to, is similar to a complaint which
my wage hasn`t gone up. You have to tell a story about how you are going to
do that.

BARRO: Right. And at the bottom of the wage scale you can do it with
wage policy. But at the middle of the wage scale where people are making
$20 or $30 an hour, a lot of them hear a minimum wage increase. That is a
good idea. That will help people who need help, but it`s not going to
affect my family`s economic circumstances in the way that you can sell them
a tax cut.

Now, that said, another difference between now and when George Bush
was running for president is there was a budget surplus when George Bush
was running.
So, what are we going to do with the surplus? Obviously not there now.

HAYES: Alright. Josh Barro and Dorian Warren, thank you both.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right

Good evening, Rachel.


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