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All In With Chris Hayes, Tuesday, November 17th, 2015

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Date: November 17, 2015
Guest: Cyril Vanier, Charlie Pierce, Lawrence Korb, Christopher Dickey,
Graeme Wood, Sophia Jones, Daniel Malloy

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Good evening from Paris. I`m Chris Hayes on
a day when the investigation into the brutal attacks here has focused on
the response to those attacks keeps widening.

A new threat shut down a huge sporting event in Germany. A soccer
stadium in Hannover, Germany, was evacuated after what was described by
German police as a credible threat 90 minutes before kickoff, a friendly
match between Germany and the Netherlands that was expected to begin
approximately at 8:45 p.m. local time. German Chancellor Angela Merkel had
been expected to attend the game.

In counterpoint, the match between France and England at Wembley
Stadium in London went forward amid some concerns but British fans joined
their French counterparts in singing the French national anthem as a
display of solidarity.

The eighth terror suspect, Salah Abdeslam, is still at large at this
hour. And today, two arrests were made of men who reportedly shared in his
getaway car, one of them a suspected driver, a lawyer for one of those two
suspects acknowledges a car ride occurred. But tonight, as claims
involvement in the attacks, lawyer for the other suspect says his client
went along for the ride.

There is also now an active manhunt for an as yet unnamed additional
accomplice in the Paris attacks, 120 raids took place overnight across
France as French authorities mobilized 115,000 security personnel since the
Friday`s attack, according to the French interior minister.

Also today, a big development, Russia said it was indeed a bomb that
took down its airliner two weeks ago in Egypt. Russia intensified air
strikes of ISIS targets in Syria. The Russians said they were coordinating
their campaign with France as it launched air strikes of its own.

Secretary of state John Kerry met with French President Francois
Hollande on a day when Holland called on the U.S. and Russia to overcome
divisions in an effort to defeat ISIS. France also invoked a never before
used Article 42 in the European Union treaty, obliging members of the 28-
nation bloc to give aid and assistance by all the means in their power to a
member country that is, quote, "the victim of harmed aggression on its

All of it further evidence that France is fully entering war footing
as its citizens struggle with their own mourning and response.

Today, I visited a restaurant that was one of the scenes in the crime.
And later in this hour, I`ll speak with a governor in the U.S. about the
refugee hysteria sweeping the United States, as domestic politics turns
increasingly ugly.

We begin with two reports tonight, Eamon Mohyeldin is in Cairo for the
latest on the Russian announcement it was indeed ISIS that took down their
passenger airliner, and Claudio Lavanga is in Brussels, Belgium, with the
latest on the investigation there and the news from Germany today.

Claudio, good evening.


Well, the manhunt for the most wanted man in Europe continues, of
course. Salah Abdeslam, as you mentioned, was born and raised here in
Belgium. Belgium and Brussels which was more known as the home base of
international organizations like the European Union and NATO. But now, it
is increasingly becoming clear that it is the hot bed of Islamic extremism
here in Europe where there are the most the highest number of foreign
fighters per capita in any county in the Europe left from here to go and
fight with ISIL in Syria and as many as 130 are known to have come back.

Well, now, one of those radicalized is Salah Abdeslam. His family
still lives here. His brother Mohamed who was arrested on Friday along
with another six people was arrested on Friday, he was then released.
Mohamed spoke on camera the last couple of days.

And today, he told a channel in France, a TV channel in France, he
made an appeal. He said Salah, his brother, just turn yourself in. That,
of course, hasn`t happened yet. He`s still being sought in particular here
in Brussels even though he`s known to have been picked up in France by
these two accomplices who were arrested today. He must have come back here
in Belgium somewhere. Of course, the police don`t know whether he`s still
here or whether he is elsewhere in Europe.

But, of course, this is the place they were thought to find any trace
of his whereabouts. In the meantime, of course, you mentioned the
developing news in Germany. The German interior minister has spoken out
about an hour and a half ago while he gave out some details or what he
calls, what he said the threat was real. There was credible evidence but
also didn`t want to give out any account or any specifications on what this
threat was about, not to upset the population, he said. Well, on that
particular known answer was as worrisome as any other answer itself, Chris.

HAYES: All right. Claudio Lavanga, thank you.

Joining me now from Cairo, Egypt, MSNBC foreign correspondent Ayman

And, Ayman, the Russians announcing today that they had had found it
was some sort of explosive device that brought down the passenger plane.
Egyptian authorities still saying that`s not the case. There seems to be
some dispute between the two nations about what exactly happened.

look at it over the course of the last several weeks, the Egyptian
government has been very reluctant to buy into the theories from Western
governments that it was definitely a terrorist attack, especially in the
growing evidence that has been presented by both U.S. and British
intelligence that they detected some chatter among ISIS militants in the
Sinai Peninsula before and after the attack celebrating it.

But, today, you really had perhaps the closest thing to an actual
forensic confirmation that this was a bomb. You had the head of Russian
intelligence coming out and saying that after they were able to analyze the
soil sample and samples of the fuselage, they were able to determine that
in fact, there was explosive residue in the wreckage of that plane. They
went as far as saying it was about 2.2 pounds worth of TNT that brought the
plane down.

So, from the eyes of the Russians and Western intelligence services,
this is now definitely a terrorist attack. Not yet sure who is behind it
although ISIS did claim responsibility for it. They still want to verify
that claim of responsibility.

But you`re right. When you talk to Egyptian government officials,
today the statement that came out of the government was very clear. They
said they`re going to take Russia`s final conclusion into their own
calculation when they make their investigation complete.

They didn`t say that they`re acknowledging that Russia`s conclusion
was correct. In fact, they went a step further saying that as of yet, the
civil aviation minister here in Egypt said as of yet, there is still no
evidence of criminal activity behind being bringing this plane down.

Now, despite that, Egypt`s minister of interior is stepping up
security at the airport. And they have begun top screen employees. They
have begun to screen baggage even tighter than what we`ve seen in the past.
They did say that they`re considering all possibilities that it could be a
terrorist attack.

But as of yet, no clear indication from the Egyptian government that
this was a terrorist attack. We also know that Egyptian security officials
have been questioning people at the airport, questioning personnel at the
airport in another indication that perhaps that, too, is where their
investigation is going to lead them, albeit a little bit later than many of
the other countries that have already concluded this was a bomb, Chris.

HAYES: All right. Ayman Mohyeldin in Cairo, thank you very much.

Joining me now, France 24 reporter and anchor, Cyril Vanier, who was
on air when the Paris attacks occurred.

Cyril, thank you for joining me tonight. I know you lost a colleague.
I want to express condolences.


HAYES: Everybody, I think, is devastated by what happened here.

Francois Hollande just talked about a grand international coalition to
defeat ISIS. What have are the domestic politics at play for him as he
essentially puts the nation on quite explicitly war footing?

VANIER: Well, look, first of all, look at the context going into this
for Francois Hollande domestically. He`s a very weak president, very, very
low approval ratings. You have to ask yourself if you just put aside the
feeling and the trauma for just one second, how is this going to affect his
presidency? Is there going to be a before and after November 13th?

In all likelihood, there is. And Francois Hollande knows that and he
knows it`s critical to his presidency how he handles this moment. The way
he`s handling it, he has to get tougher on security. This is what people
want. It`s a natural response.

I mean, as a Frenchman, I`m angry and just coming here, I read, I
looked at the poll numbers, that`s the national mood. People are angry and
they`re going to want more security. They`re going to want things to be

HAYES: Hollande today talking about a variety of measures, including
a possibility of a constitutional amendment about essentially revoking the
citizenship of dual nationals who were found guilty of certain crimes.

It feels to me like somewhat like a similar to 9/11 moment when
America passed a whole variety of measures, starting spending much more on
defense, built an entire structure of security, went to war in two
different countries. I mean, is that what France is headed towards?

VANIER: I think there are some similarities because certainly in
terms of reckoning and in terms of understanding the level of threat we`re
facing -- yes, this is different from what we`ve seen before. And I`m
saying this from a perspective of a country that`s been under attack this
year already a number of times.

But this is different. It`s a different scale and also people
understand it could be anyone anywhere. You know, it`s not specific
targets. It`s everybody. It`s our lifestyle, our country. I think people
understand that at this moment.

However, one thing that France cannot do is afford to just start wars
with other countries and the way that the U.S. did post-9/11. We can`t
just invade Syria assuming we wanted to, not saying we do. But France
can`t do that. That`s not on the table.

HAYES: That is not on the table. It`s not part of the political
discussion when people argue about the range of options, some sort of
French ground invasion in Syria is simply not a discussed option.

VANIER: Given the size of our military -- no.

HAYES: Cyril Vanier, thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

VANIER: Thanks.

HAYES: Coming up, we`ll have more from Paris, plus an analysis of the
rhetoric versus the reality of combating ISIS. And the latest on the
American presidential politics who want a religious litmus test for Syrians
fleeing violence.


JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Which is why I said that look,
at a minimum, we ought to be bringing in people that he have like orphans
and people that clearly aren`t going to be terrorists or Christians. There
are no Christian terrorists in the Middle East. They`re persecuted,
religious minorities. .

REPORTER: So what does the focus on Christian families actually like?

BUSH: You`re a Christian. You can prove you`re a Christian.


BUSH: I think you can prove it. If you can`t prove it, then you
know, you err on the side of caution.


HAYES: It`s been four days since the deadly attacks in Paris and life
in the French capital is slowly moving forward. The streets tonight had
activity, though more muted than normal. Earlier today, I went to the site
of one of those attacks and asked "The Daily Beast" foreign editor
Christopher Dickey, lived here for 20 years, if Friday`s events will change
life in Paris.


CHRISTOPHER DICKEY, THE DAILY BEAST: I think life changes when you
start looking over your shoulder. That`s what people are doing. And I
think what`s what you saw out in Place de la Republique a couple of days
ago when somebody set off fire crackers and there was panic. Even the
police to some extent panicked.

So, I think you just -- you -- that changed the quality of life. You
don`t want that to happen. I mean, there`s signs here that have says we
won`t change our way of life, except we`ll do even more of it and we love

Well, that`s great. That`s a great sentiment. That`s one of the
things you love about the French is there is this kind of solidarity.

The fraternite part of "liberte, egalite, fraternite". But at the end
of the day, when you`re walking around the city, you think twice, do I want
to go to the ballet? Am I going to go to the movie? Do I want to sit in
an outdoor cafe?

People do it, but it doesn`t feel the way it did a week ago.



HAYES: In the wake of the Paris attacks, one of the Republican front-
runner`s own top advisors is blasting his lack of knowledge on foreign
policy. Wayne Clarridge, an advisor for Ben Carson telling "The New York
Times", quote, "Nobody has been able to sit down with him and have him get
one iota of intelligent information about the Middle East."

Meanwhile, Donald Trump has a new line about ISIS. He`s been working
on stump speeches. It`s getting pretty rapturous applause.


(EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of them. It`s true. I don`t care. I don`t care.
They`ve got to be stopped.


HAYES: According to a new poll, 20 percent of Americans believe Trump
is the best candidate suited to deal with terrorism, tied with Hillary
Clinton and far more than any other Republican. Trump`s rhetoric on
foreign policy as with everything else tends to be extremely simplistic as
seen in an Instagram video he posted today wrongly suggesting the U.S. does
not screen Syrian refugees.


TRUMP: Refugees are pouring into our great country from Syria. We
don`t even know who they are. They could be ISIS. They could be anybody.
What`s our president doing? Is he insane?


HAYES: Trump is one of a number of Republican candidates who have
been attacking the president over his strategy for fighting ISIS, which the
president maintained yesterday is ultimately going to work.

GOP candidates` rhetoric belies the fact that in most cases, many of
their policies don`t end up differing a lot from what the president has
been doing. As "The L.A. Times" notes, the major candidates in both
parties have called for airstrikes against Islamic state positions in Syria
and Iraq, providing arms to Kurdish and Arab militias, and building
coalitions with U.S. allies and regional partners, all of which the
administration has been doing for more than a year.

Yet in the wake of the attacks here in Paris, most of the GOP
candidates are opting to paper over that fact and attempt to adopt the most
bellicose rhetoric they can.

Joining me now, Charlie Pierce, writer at large for "Esquire".

And, Charlie, there were some thinking I saw -- some folks on the
right thinking, well, this Paris attack is going to show people you`ve got
to be serious and who is going to take the 3:00 a.m. call. Obviously,
that`s not going to help he Trump and Carson. It looks to be just the
reverse. This is precisely helping Donald Trump because in a competition
for the most bellicose rhetoric, no one is going to beat Donald Trump.

Chris, because the competition for the most bellicose rhetoric is the only
competition. As pointed out, this is a terrific issue if you`re running
for president. It`s a terrible issue if you actually are president.

HAYES: Right.

PIERCE: Because if you`re running for president and you know there
weren`t good solutions and you know that the current president is pretty
much, you know, doing the only things that can be done, you can yell about
doing anything. Full in the knowledge that you`re not going to do it once
you get the opportunity.

So, basically, what you have is a bunch of Republicans turning up the
rhetorical heat and yet, essentially, advocating the same policies the
president`s following except with more leadership.

HAYES: You know, Charlie, you covered the aftermath of 9/11 and I
thought you wrote an interesting piece about some of the fear expressed
about the possibility of infiltration by ISIS by refugees. Here in Paris
you can feel the moment in politics. You can really feel it, not
dissimilar from 9/11, this sense that they might strike anywhere and we
have to take these measures. We saw that play out in the U.S.

Are you surprised by the tenor of American politics in the last 48

PIERCE: Absolutely not. I spent all weekend lighting candles and
saying novenas in gratitude that it was the Democratic debate on Saturday
night, not a Republican debate because I can`t imagine what that would have
been like. Yes, I think -- what I wrote today basically was a lot of this
is yes, a lot of this is ginned up for political advantage, and a lot of

Some of it isn`t. Charlie Baker in Massachusetts is not a bigot.
Neither is Maggie Hassan in New Hampshire. Now you can argue if you`re
even more cynical than I am that she`s taking this position because she`s
going to run against Kelly Ayotte for the Senate, and she doesn`t want to
look soft on terrorism. And if you want to believe that, that`s fine.

I do believe it comes down to -- if you are a politician that believes
the federal government can do its job, Bill Belichick, then you will
probably go along with the refugees. But if you`ve made your entire career
out of Ronald Reagan`s admonition that the problem, the government is the
problem, not the solution, then you very easily fall in to really, really
bad habits of rhetoric and really, really, real bad policy.

HAYES: There`s also the fact that we -- there`s a sense in which 15
years into the war on terror after trillions of dollars, thousands of
American servicemen and women have died -- I say thousands of Americans
died in 9/11 and other terror attacks -- you know, this question of have we
won yet, are we there yet? That strikes me as some of the kind of esprit
du corps you`re getting from candidates on the trail.

PIERCE: I think you`re right. I don`t think anybody really knows
what to do with this issue. The original rhetoric in the wake of 9/11 ran
out of gas pretty quickly. It ran out of gas because of the attack
invasion of Iraq.

If you look at the polls now, there is absolutely no appetite in the
American public for sending ground troops over there, none. No matter what
people say and no matter how much Lindsey Graham will personally pilot the
troop ship from New York to Cyprus or whatever, there is no appetite in the
public for another ground war in West Asia.

But, basically, the polls say people want to do something very harsh,
but they don`t want to use ground troops and don`t think increased
airstrikes will work. So, I`m not exactly sure what they have in mind.
They just want to do something.

HAYES: That`s where you get bombing the crap out of them.

Charlie Pierce, thank you very much.

PIERCE: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: Joining me now is Lawrence Korb, senior fellow at the Center
for American Progress, former assistant secretary of defense in the Reagan

And, Lawrence, I want to focus on actual substantive policy
differences that have been laid out. Some of the things America has been
doing including air strikes, arms support, special operators now in Iraq
actually working on the ground. That`s actually being done.

The no-fly zone is something that many Republican candidates have
advocated and Hillary Clinton seems to essentially endorse. Would that
help? Is that a good idea?

wouldn`t help at all because ISIL, which is the main enemy, doesn`t have
airplanes. It would be very expensive. You would need thousands of troops
enabled to do it and it would get you involved in the Syrian civil war
which is really not a threat to us.

HAYES: You mentioned the Syrian civil war. It strikes me so much of
the conversation from people in the American domestic political context is
about destroying ISIS, people in Europe.

When I correspond with people in the region, when I talk to people in
the region, they talk about the civil war. They talk about Assad. They
say 70 percent of these refugees are fleeing Assad. There is no solution
to ISIS without some solution to the Syrian civil war.

Do you think that`s true?

KORB: Well, there`s no long-term solution unless you take care of the
Syrian civil war. We`re going to have to come to some sort of political
solution that sets up a transition government or sets a date for an
election and lets Assad go out gracefully so that we can all concentrate on
fighting ISIL.

You know, the Russians went in there and pretended they were fighting
ISIL. They really were there to protect Assad. After the airliner went
down, boy, they have gone after ISIL big-time with the bombing in Raqqa.

So, yes, you need to do that. As a result of what`s happened to the
Russians, what`s happened in Paris and what`s happened in Lebanon, people
are going to be willing to make the compromises necessary to get some sort
of solution to the civil war so we can focus on ISIL.

HAYES: Can you imagine a sort of united front against ISIL that
didn`t involve some ground troop contingent that was successful in
essentially destroying the group?

KORB: Well, I think the ground troops -- the president is absolutely
right -- the ground troops have to be the local ground troops. We can have
a limited number, you know, maybe as we have 3,500 in Iraq and we just put
50 into Syria, basically to advise and assist.

If you look at the operation last week where the Peshmerga cut off
route 47 which is the main route from the Raqqa to Mosul, which is the
capital for the ISIL in Iraq and they took back Sinjar and they had
Americans advising and assisting, that`s the way to go. You put American
or Western ground troops there, it will feed into the ISIL narrative that
this is a struggle between the West and Islam.

HAYES: All right, Lawrence Korb, thank you very much.

KORB: Tank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, why Secretary of State John Kerry says he was
shocked but not surprised about the attacks in Paris. He revealed in his
interview with NBC`s Lester Holt.

That interview and Lester will be with me, next.


HAYES: Today, for a second day, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry
met with officials in Paris, personally pledging to the French President
Francois Hollande American support in the fight against the Islamic state.

Earlier, NBC`s Lester Holt sat down with the secretary to ask if the
U.S. underestimated ISIS and its capabilities before last week`s attack.


LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: Mr. Secretary, we learned from Russia
today that it was in fact a bomb that took down the MetroJet over Egypt a
couple of weeks ago. ISIS claimed responsibility. ISIS apparently behind
the Paris bombings.

These are capabilities that no one apparently knew they had. How
could the U.S. and the West expectations of ISIS be so wrong?

JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I disagree that people
didn`t know they had this capacity. We certainly have known.

HOLT: That they could blow up a plane?

KERRY: Sure. I mean, they have gained great expertise over a period
of time and they have some people in ISIS who have been fighting in the
terror network for a period of time. So, they have access to C4. They
have access to explosives. Everybody knows that. They`re making IEDs
every single day.

HOLT: So, you weren`t surprised by what we saw in Paris?

KERRY: I was shocked by it, not surprised. I find that we all know
because we are following the threat streams that any individual who wants
to strap a suicide vest around them can walk into any public event in most
places in the world and blow him or herself up and destroy people with

So, that`s the nature of terror. That`s why terrorists are called
terrorists. They spread terror. They`re trying to sow fear and intimidate
people. And yes, we have known this. We`re on the lookout every single day
for these plots. And we`ve intercepted one of them. We had a bomb that
didn`t go off in Times Square, if you recall a couple years ago.

This is within the total capacity and nobody should express shock that
terrorists have the ability to kill people somewhere.


HAYES: That was NBC`s Lester Holt with Secretary Kerry. Just moments
ago, I spoke with Lester about his conversation.


HAYES: So you got a chance to talk to the secretary of state today.
And I was struck a bit by the both he and the president seem to be -- I
don`t know what the right word is, a little exasperated by some of the
criticism they`re facing.

HOLT: think the question keeps coming, strategy, strategy, strategy
is something going to happen after Paris, and what they`re saying is no,
the strategy that we have is working and they describe how the physical
area within Syria that ISIS controls is shrinking.

But obviously, they`re feeling a lot of pressure. And, yes, probably
a little exasperated.

HAYES: One of the things you got to in the interview that has been in
some ways buried by the news from Paris is there looks like there is some
progress on the front of some kind of framework for a cease-fire with some
of the parties in the Syrian civil war.

HOLT: Well, because they`ve got to get to the heart of this. And it
was interesting that President Hollande in his remarks to parliament the
other day, you know, talked about the fact there`s got to be an ISIS, an
international ISIS strategy. For that to happen, Russia and the U.S. have
to get on the same

And I think that`s, when you talk about a change in strategy, I think
that`s the overall goal.

HAYES: The secretary is also going to be back here in two weeks for
COP21. He`s obviously got a lot on his plate. How much do you think this
comes to dominate the sort of end of this presidential term.

HOLT: Well, I think it`s always the next shoe that drops. I mean,
listen, I was here ten months ago and you didn`t know it was going to
happen again so soon.

But suddenly, Belgium now is seen in kind of a different light as a
potential hot bed of terrorist activity. Europe has this unsettled sense
of a threat right now. And I think it potentially could become a big part
of the final part of this presidency to the extent he`s gone all-in with
this current ISIS strategy and drawing a line in the sand that there be no

HAYES: All right, Lester Holt, thanks so much. I really appreciate

HOLT: Great talking to you.


HAYES: Coming up, governors of over half the states in the union have
raised objections to resettling Syrian refugees in the U.S. I`ll talk with
one governor who is instead reassuring refugees they are still welcome in
his state. That`s next.


HAYES: The resistance to President Obama`s plan to accept at least
10,000 Syrian refugees over the next year is growing in the wake of the
terror attacks here in Paris four days ago, though, it bears repeating
investigators have yet to the establish a definitive connection to the

Governors in 31 states are now opposing, refusing or suspending the
resettlement of Syrian refugees into their state either permanently or
until after security review. And amid reports that hard lines opposed to
accepting refugees could force a government shutdown in the states, House
speaker Paul Ryan today said the refugee resettlement program should be
suspended and planned a House vote on restricting refugees by Thursday.


REP. PAUL RYAN, (R) WISCONSIN: This is a moment where it`s better to
be safe than to be sorry. So we think the prudent, the responsible thing
is to take a pause in this particular aspect of this refugee program in
order to verify that terrorists are not trying to infiltrate the refugee


HAYES: GOP presidential candidates have been flogging the issue for
perceived political gain including Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal who
today suspended his struggling presidential campaign and who on Saturday
sent the president a letter calling his refugee plan, quote, irresponsible
and severely

Another GOP presidential Candidate Ohio Governor John Kasich
repudiated his
previous support for accepting refugees in the wake of the Paris attacks.


JOHN KASICH, GOVERNOR OF OHIO: It`s a matter of numbers.

And look, I mean, at the end, the people of this country don`t want
any more right now. They want to make sure they`re going to be safe.


HAYES: Hillary Clinton who has called for taking in 65,000 Syrian
refugees significantly more than the Obama administration, today had some
harsh words for Jeb Bush and Ted Cruz who have suggested America should
make special allowances
for only Christian refugees instead of Muslims. Quote, "we`ve seen a lot
of hateful rhetoric from the GOP but the idea we turn away refugees because
of religion is a new low."

Joining me now is one of the minority of governors who says Syrian
refugees are still welcome in his state, Democratic governor Dannel Malloy
of Connecticut.

And governor, I understand you`re on a conference call between the
White House and governors today on then issue. What was that call like?


First of all, the administration did a very good job of explaining the
process and procedures on how people are allowed to come into our country
as a refugee.

Let me give you a couple of statistics. Since 2011, 23,043 people
have been recommended by the UN to be considered for coming to the United
States from Syria .
7,000 of those after review were found to be acceptable for a next stage of
review. Of that 7,000, 2,000 have made it to the United States thus far.
And many of those folks are in states like Florida and Texas and elsewhere
and Connecticut for that matter.

We`re talking about a tiny fraction of people.

Let me give you a statistic, since 2004 through 2014, according to the
government accountability report, we sold 2,042 guns to people who were on
the terrorism watch list. Why? Because the NRA has prevented us from
adding people on the watch list as ineligible to buy guns in the United
States. It doesn`t make a lot of sense.

Let me give you another statistic, 30,000 people in America are going
to die as a result of gun violence. And yet, those same governors who came
out today and said we shouldn`t take refugees are the same governors who
oppose common sense gun control laws in America.

Why don`t we have universal background checks? If a Syrian can`t get
on a plane to fly someplace in the world or to the United States without a
background check, why do we sell guns to people without a background check
if we`re so fearful what`s going to happen?

HAYES: Governor, it comes down it seems to me about confidence in the
vetting procedure in place. And it seems that there`s either a combination
of good faith distrust of that system or bad faith demagoguery, frankly, in
this wave of governors.

What do you think is at play?

MALLOY: Or people who just haven`t bothered to understand what the
process is. We have the toughest process in the world about allowing
refugees into our country. That`s the reality. That`s the standard we
hold ourselves to.

And by the way, let`s be very clear, no one`s taking a raft from
Turkey to get to the United States. We control this situation to a higher
degree than any other European country can at the current moment. And we
have different procedures
even at our airports and with respect to passports and with respect to
visas than are present in Europe. We are well protected.

And by the way, I just gave you the numbers, 23,000 to 7,000 for
review to
only 2,000 since 2011 entered into this country. And a bunch of those
folks have been victims of rape, had been victims of political oppression,
had been our allies in the goings on in that area.

That`s why we brought them to this country so that they wouldn`t be
killed because they were our allies.

What are we going to turn our back on these folks?

HAYES: Do you think you can sell the voters of your state on this, or
is this going to create real political problems for you?

MALLOY: No, listen, I think this is -- the American people are
people. And they understand what`s written on the Statute of Liberty "give
us your poor, your tired, your weary." They understand that. We`ll return
to this common sense situation.

But a bunch of governors got ahead of themselves, didn`t bother to do
their homework, didn`t bother to understand what`s going on even in their
own states and how hard this process is. And they jumped on a political

And quite frankly, they`re going to win that argument for a while.
People are going to think, hey, that`s great. Let`s really be tough on

Here`s a question, if most of these folks who attacked in Paris were
and Belgians, why wouldn`t you allow French and Belgian people in our
country or any other country that has a problem?

The reality is what they`re trying to do is say, this is a very small
segment of people. We can pick on them relatively easily and we can make
our political point.

And by the way, that`s what terrorists want. They want us to stop
being Americans. They want us to stop believing in liberty and in freedom.
They want to be able to be go back to where they`re from and say see,
Americans didn`t really
mean they were an open society. They really don`t mean they`re going to
treat our people the same way as they treat everybody else. They`re going
to single us out
one way or the other.

HAYES: All right, Governor Daniel Malloy of Connecticut, great thanks
for your time tonight.

MALLOY: Thank you.

HAYES: France and Russia target the Syrian city of Raqqa with air
strikes. an those efforts actually weaken the Islamic State? That`s next.


HAYES: The wee hours of the earliest morning in the middle of the
night here in Paris, the street life today was present but not exuberant
here in Paris.

I talked to a Parisian about what it`s been like since the attacks.
And she said that today there were many more people on the street than
there had been, but it wasn`t the full Parisian boisterous experience that
she was used to.

The question she had was when we would return to that or is this
staying after 9/11 about how nothing would ever be the same, the saying
about the new normal. The question Europe right now is facing is what
their new normal looks like and how they figure out a path going forward.

We`ll be back with more from Paris after break.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Russia says it now knows unequivocally that a two-
homemade bomb brought down its plane late last month over Sinai. President
Putin promised a harsh response.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA (through translator): Wherever
they are
hiding, we will find them in any spot on the planet and punish them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Russia started that punishment against ISIS,
which claimed responsibility for the attack, by bombing its capital in
Syria, the city of Raqqa.


HAYES: The ISIS held Syria city of Raqqa is now the target of Russian
strikes. France, meanwhile, has carried another round of airstrikes of its
own on the city. This latest wave of attacks on Raqqa comes as France
makes an unprecedented demand for its European allies to support the
country`s military action against ISIS.

As for the U.S., it has been bombing Raqqa for months in addition to
other strategic locations.

American-led air strikes are being credited with helping push ISIS
extremists out of Sinjar in northern Iraq where ISIS planted its -- 15
months ago brutalizing a minority group known as the Yazidis and
precipitating the initial American intervention.

And joining me now by phone from Irbil, Iraq is Sophia Jones who has
been reporting on the Yazidi people in Sinjar for The World Post.

Sophia, you were in Sinjar just right after ISIS had been defeated and
pushed out, what was the scene like there?

SOPHIA JONES, THE WORLD POST: I was there just two days after Kurdish
forces pushed out ISIS. And when I arrived with Kurdish and Yazidi
fighters, there was nothing left of the city. Most of the homes had been
looted or burn. There were plumes of smoke high in the air. ISIS has had
labeled homes based on the religious sect of the people inside the house so
they would write Yazidi or Sunni or Shia on the homes in thick black

People were diffusing IEDs and booby traps. They were uncovering
tunnels under -- dug through people`s living rooms.

The city was totally destroyed and there are no civilians there right

HAYES: Was there a sense in the people you talked to of a victory
here? Obviously it`s horrifying what has happened and the city`s been
brutalized. Did they feel like this had struck a blow, that this meant
that they were on the march and ISIS was in retreat?

JONES: If you talk to Kurdish forces called the Peshmerga they will
say it`s a huge victory for the KRG and for the forces and they really
thanked the United States and said they could not have done it without
these U.S. air strikes which were huge.

But if you talk to the Yazidis, they say this in no way a victory.
They have absolutely no money to rebuild the city from the ground up and
they also say what`s going to stop ISIS from regrouping and attacking in a
few weeks and a few months and committing another massacre like happened
last August in which hundreds of Yazidi men, women and children were killed
when they were taken as sex slaves and
children were taken as child soldiers. And I spoke to some of those
survivors this week who say that they are terrified it will happen again to

HAYES: All right, Sophia Jones with some amazing reporting out of
Sinjar from Irbil, Iraq, right now. Thank you very much.

Joining me now contributing editor to The Atlantic Graham Wood who
wrote the piece "What ISIS Really Wants" from that magazine is now working
on a book about the group`s ideology.

Graeme, your article got a lot of play. It was controversial in
quarters. How do you think what we`ve seen in Paris and in Beirut and now
it appears in the (inaudible) against Russia fits with what your
understanding has been of, quote, what ISIS wants.

GRAEME WOOD, AUTHOR: So, the first thing to say is that ISIS back in
March, 2015 when that article came out was doing quite well, now it is not.
Sinjar would be just one example. There are several others.

And before its main focus was keeping territory, building a state.
Now what it seems to have done is decided that it`s time for a major change
in strategy. And actually, the adoption of tactics that before it thought
were not a winning play. They thought it was old school al Qaeda stuff to
do spectacular attacks on places like Paris.

So, we`re seeing the group changing fast. And it`s interesting to
look at the ways that might have -- that decision might have been come to.

I think it has a lot to do with the setbacks.

HAYES: Yeah, what does that suggest about whether what is being done
from a strict military strategic sense is having a positive effect?

WOOD: Yeah, I think it`s definitely having a positive effect. It`s a
kind of slow motion military collapse that we`re seeing with the Islamic
State, that is, they`ve got to the point where they can`t really expand
much further because once
they get any further, they start reaching Shia majority areas, they reach
areas where they can`t really keep and hold.

And instead you see them rolling back, even in a place like Ramadi,
which was a site of one of their victories they`re at this point reduced to
holding a small portion of that city. And that could disappear, too.

So if these strikes continue with troops on the ground from the Iraqi
army but also most importantly the Kurds, continue to take that territory
away, then they`re going to have to rethink their purpose for existence
because they won`t
have a caliphate and territory for much longer.

HAYES: Of course, the frightening thing for that, for folks that are
listening and whether they would be in Paris or Brussels or in Los Angeles
is if
they have now decided, well, the thing that distinguishes us from al Qaeda
is we were an actual state and we held territory and we`re losing some of
that territory and now we are going to act more like al Qaeda is that we
could be seeing many more
attempts at the kinds of the things we`ve seen over the last two weeks.

WOOD: They used to say to al Qaeda that, look, if you have September
11th style attacks what does that get you? It gets you invaded. You lose
your base. So, don`t do that.

Now they`re finding that they get -- they lose their base anyway
because there`s this kind of air assisted effort by Kurds, et cetera.

So if that means that their response is all right, let`s just try the
old traditional al Qaeda model of bombing western targets, then in the
short run, yeah, you might very well see a serious uptick in activity like
the Paris massacre of Friday.

HAYES: All right, Graeme Wood, thank you very much. Really
appreciate it.

Still to come, a look at the significance of a neighborhood that was
targeted on Friday. Why the attackers chose those particular locations.
That`s right after the break.


HAYES: Several of the targets hit in last week`s attacks were
restaurants and cafes, places where people of all ages, religions,
nationalities gathered on a Friday night.

Two of the restaurants targeted were La Petit Cambodge (ph) and La
Carillon (ph), located in the (inaudible).

Earlier today, I went to that neighborhood and spoke with the Daily
Beast Christopher Dickey about the area`s significance as a target.


CHRISTOIPHER DICKEY, THE DAILY BEAST: I mean, nobody here had any
reason to
think that anybody would ever drive up and just mow them down with machine
guns. I mean, it was just unbelievable.

And this is the thing that I think has affected people so much in
Paris. You can`t put it off on anything else. You can`t say, oh, they
drew cartoons of Muhammad. You can`t say anything was even remotely a
provocation. This is just slaughter for the sake of slaughter in a
neighborhood that was mixed.

HAYES: Yeah, what is this neighborhood like? I mean, it just seems
quite we should say it`s Tuesday now and life seems to be bubbling back up
in Paris generally.

DICKEY: Well, it`s a very mixed neighborhood. There`s a lot of
people here from North Africa, from Africa. There are a lot of people from
eastern Europe. There are people from everywhere here.

This -- there was a period when this was sort of the silicon Valley
kind of -- Silicon Alley of Paris in this general neighborhood.

We`re just a few hundred years, not even, from the canal San Martin,
which is one of the most beautiful places to walk in the city, where people
sit out on the edge of the canal and talk and do all those kinds of
romantic things that you think of students doing here in Paris. All of
that is part of the neighborhood.

This is really where the life is in Paris. This is where things,
(inaudible), things are moving.

You could say it`s hip but it isn`t really hip, that`s misleading.
It`s that wonderful cosmopolitan mix that you get in Paris at its best
whether you`re talking
about the Paris of today or the Paris of the `20s, people from all over the
world to come and mix and mingle and want to lead lives of pleasure.

HAYES: Yeah, Hollande said yesterday that there were 19 nationalities
amongst the dead so far. Was that what -- was that surprising to you? Was
that what you thought when you heard that it was happening in this

DICKEY: No. I didn`t, that didn`t surprise me at all when I heard it
happening in this neighborhood. And remember also that the concert venue,
the Bataclan, is a ten-minute walk or less from here. And that was packed
with people, again the same kind of mix of people.

As we wrote about in The Daily Beast, something important to remember,
one of the things that the killers knew or at least the people who did this
operation knew, designed it, is that there shad be a lot of people from
Muslim backgrounds in this crowd and they think that those people are
apostates. Why? They`re apostates because they come from Muslim
backgrounds but not living like the people in ISIS, they`re not living like
people in the damned Islamic State. They`re living like Parisians. And
that`s a crime.


HAYES: All right. That was Christopher Dickey in the neighborhood
right around here where two of the attacks happened.

That is All In for this evening from Pin the wee early hours of the

Joining me now Richard Engel who will take over on Rachel Maddow`s
spot tonight. It`s good to see you.


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