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All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, November 23rd, 2015

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Date: November 23, 2015
Guest: Carlos Chaverst, Keith Ellison, Jim Rich, Corey Brooks


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

certain mosques, OK?

HAYES: GOP front-runner Donald Trump is making up scary stories about
American Muslims.

TRUMP: There were people that were cheering on the other side of New
Jersey where you have large Arab populations. They were cheering as the
World Trade Center came down.

HAYES: Representative Keith Ellison, the first Muslim elected to
Congress, is with me to respond.

Plus, a Black Lives Matter activist --

TRUMP: Get him the hell out of here, will you, please?

HAYES: -- violently removed from a Trump event.

TRUMP: Maybe he should have been roughed up.

HAYES: I`ll speak with an eyewitness from that rally.

Then, who does America trust to handle the threat of terrorism? A new
poll finds one 2016 candidate leading the entire field.

And later, why the NRA is blocking a bill to keep guns out of the
hands of people on the terror watch list.

WAYNE LAPIERRE, NRA: The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun
is a good guy with a gun.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

This was the scene moments ago at a Trump rally in Columbus, Ohio,
after a protester reacted to comments from Donald Trump about surveilling
Muslims in America. The protester shouted down by angry members of the
crowd. A scene that`s been repeated over and over again at Trump campaign

The very first day of Donald Trump`s candidacy when he referred to
Mexican immigrants as criminals and rapists, his campaign has been
characterized by extreme statements steeped in bigotry and bearing a
tenuous relationship to facts.

But Donald Trump is still the front-runner. He`s paid very little
price for those kinds of comments. In the wake of the attacks in Paris,
with much of the political and media establishment stoking fear and panic,
Trump seems to have concluded he can only benefit by ratcheting up the
rhetoric even further.

In just the last three days, he`s trotted out a long debunked myth
about American Muslims celebrating on 9/11.


TRUMP: I watched when the World Trade Center came tumbling down and I
watched in Jersey City, New Jersey, where thousands and thousands of people
were cheering as that building was coming down. Thousands of people were


HAYES: That is demonstrably not true, just so you know.

He`s called for the U.S. government to bring back waterboarding and
the Bush-era torture regime.


INTERVIEWER: So you`d bring back waterboarding?

TRUMP: We have to -- I would bring it back, yes. I would bring it
back. I think waterboarding is peanuts compared to what they do to us.
What they`re doing to us, what they did to James Foley when they chopped
off his head, that`s a whole different level. And I would absolutely bring
back interrogation and strong interrogation.

INTERVIEWER: You`ve also --


HAYES: In the event in Columbus, Ohio, he reiterated that call. And
he`s also retweeted blatantly racist and completely bogus crime statistics
which the Web site Little Green Footballs traced back to a Twitter account
whose bio included the line and I am not making up this, "We should have
listened to the Austrian chap with the little mustache."

This afternoon, the user removed that line from the bio. No
confirmation we`re guessing it was a reference to this guy.

And Trump has condoned, even encouraged supporters at a rally in
Alabama on Saturday who physically assaulted an African-American protester
chanting "Black Lives Matter" during his remarks.


TRUMP: And he was so obnoxious and so loud. He was screaming. I had
10,000 people in the room yesterday, 10,000 people. And this guy started
screaming by himself. And I don`t know. Rough up? He should have been --
maybe he should have been roughed up because it was absolutely disgusting
what he was doing.


HAYES: What happened at that rally is just the latest on a long
string of violent incidents associated with candidate Donald Trump. In
August, two Boston brothers were assaulted for -- arrested for assaulting a
homeless man who was Hispanic, allegedly telling police Donald Trump is
right all these illegals need to be deported.

And as with the episode this weekend, Trump didn`t seem to mind much.


TRUMP: I haven`t heard about that. I think that would be a shame.
But I haven`t heard about that.

I will say the people that are following are very passionate. They
love this country. They want this country to be great again. And they are
very passionate. I will say that.


TRUMP: Very passionate.

After some backlash, he eventually condemned an attack.

In early September, Trump`s own security guard, the same one he
ordered to expel Jorge Ramos from a press conference, punched a protester
whose sign he was confiscating.

Just days later, a Trump supporter was photographed pulling the hair
of a young immigration activist at a rally in D.C.

And last month, a protester in Miami was kicked and violently dragged
at an event while onlookers chanted "USA."

Joining me now, Carlos Chaverst. He`s youth president of National
Action Network`s Birmingham chapter who is protesting at a Trump rally on
Saturday and witnessed his friend being attacked by a crowd.

And, Carlos, first set the scene for me. You went to protest at the
Trump event in Birmingham. Where were you standing during the event?

Chris, for having me on your show tonight.

So, on Saturday, once I got on the inside it was around 11:15 that
morning and Mr. Trump had already taken the stage to speak here in
Birmingham. Once I got inside, I made my way closer to the back where you
see the flag is throughout the videos. And I was able to try to find the
other two protesters that were a part of -- that were removed also.

So, the plan was for me to link up with them once we got on the inside
so that we could protest and exercise our First Amendment rights.

HAYES: So, one of your associates started yelling at one point "Black
Lives Matter" I believe in the speech. Tell me what you saw happened after
that, after he started doing that.

CHAVERST: Yes, sir. So we actually started chanting "Dump the Trump"
and "Trump the chump" before we led into the "Black Lives Matter" protest.
And so, I was recording through the app Periscope, which allows you to
broadcast live from anywhere in the world.

And through that app, you can see in the video that as I`m recording
and we`re chanting, some of Trump`s supporters began to knock my phone out
of my hand and put their hands up and stop me from being able to record and
to silence us really. So, Mercutio (ph), the gentleman that was assaulted,
he made his way closer to the stage, and we were trying to follow right
behind him. And next thing we know, about six to twelve guys started
surrounding him and beating him and punching him and choking him, as you
see on the video.


HAYES: I just want to stop you there because there`s Trump supporters
saying none of this happened, that he was never assaulted, no one ever laid
a -- no one ever swung at him, no one ever choked him, that in fact it was
Mercutio who was swinging.

You were right there. You`re telling me he was physically and
violently assaulted by the folks who were there to attend the Trump rally.

CHAVERST: Yes, sir. He was -- he was viciously attacked and
assaulted by those individuals. He was choked. He was kicked. And you
can see that in the video.

And if there`s anyone out there that can`t see that, then there`s a
problem. We have a huge problem in America with that when we try to paint
the picture to be something it was not. Well, he was in fact assaulted
right there in Donald Trump`s rally here in Birmingham.

HAYES: Carlos, let me ask you this. What was that atmosphere like?
I mean, when you start doing that, obviously you know that the crowd`s not
going to be happy. That would be true at any event, whether it`s the
president of the United States on down to any political event. If there`s
protesters that are going to interrupt and shout at a candidate and their
supporters are there, you know they`re not going to be happy.

But describe what that atmosphere felt like in that moment.

CHAVERST: Right. So this is -- the bottom line is that we were
actually protesting the fact that Donald Trump was in the historic city of
Birmingham, a population of 75 percent black, a city where we have
progressed so heavily from the civil rights era and you know, we were only
trying to exercise our First Amendment rights that allow us to protest
anywhere we want to anytime, anyhow we want to do it.

Now, in the Constitution, it does not limit when we`re able to protest
or how we`re able to do it or the way we go about doing it. Just like it
was a rally and people were there yelling and screaming in support of
Trump, we were there not in support of Trump. And we had every right to
exercise our First Amendment rights which allow us to do so. And at no
point, no one had the audacity to put their hands on any person that was
not doing any harm to anyone else.

We have the same right. And for them -- for Trump to come into
Birmingham, the city of Birmingham where my grandmother marched in a
children`s march back in the `60s, to fight for our freedom and our civil
rights, for him to come on the same night we`re honoring Fred Shuttlesworth
and having a reception for Fred Shuttlesworth in his memory and honor,
Donald Trump is here spewing hatred and racism.

And even he went as far to criticize the media for turning to when we
were being escorted out of the building. He said that the media had the
cameras to the back where we belonged. He said that we belonged in the

And if you know anything, we`ve moved so far beyond that. That he was
simply saying that black people deserve to be in the back of the room. And
that`s not acceptable. And we won`t tolerate it.

If you ask me, I say it like this. I believe that Donald Trump is
really the modern-day Bull Connor. He go around our country spewing hatred
and racism and is not accepted here in the city of Birmingham.

We`re on the verge of raising our minimum wage to $10.10 an hour. So
Trump doesn`t support raising a minimum wage.


CHAVERST: We welcome immigrants to our city. And Trump does not.

HAYES: All right. Carlos Chaverst, thank you very much for your

CHAVERST: Yes, sir. Thank you so much for having me.

HAYES: I just want to play a little bit of sound to give some context
about that. Donald Trump speaking just moments ago in Columbus, Ohio,
talked about this precise incident that Carlos witnessed firsthand. Take a


TRUMP: Two nights ago we had a phenomenal room just like this. And
the place was packed. And we had one protester in the very back, and he
started screaming and yelling. And really was very badly -- you know, it
was terrible, actually.

But security -- nothing to do with my security, it was the local
security, the convention center security. They took him out.

The cameras never moved. I said show the crowd. The cameras stayed -
- just now they stayed the same. They never move. They don`t do it
purposely. I figured maybe they weren`t adjustable.

But as soon as this guy was taken out, all of the cameras were right
on him. You know? They were right on him. They were following him right
out the door. And they said he got treated rough.

First of all, it wasn`t my people if they treated him rough. But he
was really misbehaving badly. It`s one of those things.


HAYES: They said he got treated rough, it wasn`t my people but he was
misbehaving badly. You can sort of put two and two together there.

I got a chance to speak earlier with Democratic Congressman Keith
Ellison, one two of Muslims currently serving in Congress and asked what he
made of Trump`s recent comments.


REP. KEITH ELLISON (D), MINNESOTA: It means that he`s whipping up
hatred to scapegoat a minority religious group which has some very
dangerous historic precedences as you might agree. I mean, it`s the kind
of behavior that`s classic demagoguery.

And, you know, he`s going to get somebody hurt. I don`t suppose he
cares much. But it should be the kind of behavior that is roundly

And the thing that scares me is that the more he says outrageous and
inflammatory things, it seems like it doesn`t seem to cost him in terms of
support, which makes me a little bit worried about the people who support

HAYES: You just said he`s going to get somebody hurt. What do you
mean by that?

ELLISON: What I mean is that when leaders who have a national
platform whip up hate and hysteria against a particular group, particularly
a religious group, minority religious group which is in -- that is not
popular, invariably you know, the people who are mentally unstable or
motivated by hate come out of the woodwork and you see desecrations of
buildings that are associated with that group. You see assaults. You see
murders. You see things. Things happen.

There`s a fairly significant track record of this kind of thing, and I
think that it really demonstrates how much of an anti-leader he really is.

I mean, you know, for all the political disagreements I have for
George Bush after 9/11, he went to mosque. He said, that where anybody who
desecrates a mosque is going to be held accountable by the law. He made it
very clear that it was not the Muslim community in the United States to
blame for 9/11.

And yet quite the opposite is true from Donald Trump.

But it`s not just Muslims. He said that Mexican-Americans are
bringing crime, they`re bringing drugs, and some of them are rapists. And
so, he said this about people who are Mexican.

I mean, this man is a pretty prolific hater and he`s just getting
worse. He`s capitalizing on people`s fear. He`s pandering to it. So
that`s what I mean by he can get people hurt.

HAYES: Yes. He also -- he retweeted this sort of statistic produced
by a sort of frankly white supremacist neo-Nazi sympathizing source and
tweeted originally there.

You know, how do you take this? I mean, you serve in Congress. This
is not your first rodeo. Do you watch this and think -- oh, this is
terrible and unfortunate but essentially a preposterous, very small,
fervent base, or do you think to yourself I don`t like the way this is

ELLISON: I think to myself I don`t like the way this is going, I know
that every country including our own, you know, will go through a period of
trouble where leadership can lead people to a better place or leadership
can bring them to a dark ugly place. We can get moved toward ugly episodes
like Japanese internment, turning away the St. Louis, which was a boat that
was trying to save Jews from the holocaust and got turned around, away, got
turned away from our shores. And we can have -- we can rise to the
occasion and offer leadership or we can go down those dark paths.

You know, I think it can go either way depending on the leadership of
the people who are on the scene at the given moment. And he`s a very scary
person to have on the scene.

I`m hoping that other people will rise up. I`m going to be using my
voice as much as I can to denounce what he`s saying, to tell people he`s a
fear-monger. He`s down on America. And he`s trying to whip up hate and
get ordinary citizens to blame their fellow citizens for their problems.

This is the very core of what it means to be a demagogue. But that`s
all we can do because invariably there will be people who drink that Kool-
Aid that he`s serving, and yet this is the time when we all get tested in
my opinion.

HAYES: All right. Congressman Keith Ellison, great thanks.

ELLISON: Thank you.


HAYES: Still ahead, as Donald Trump continues to take his rhetoric to
new and vicious levels, his polls stay relatively untouched, perhaps even
improving. How long will that last?

Plus, breaking news of possible indictment for the officer involved in
the shooting death of a 17-year-old, Laquan McDonald, as Chicago braces for
the release of dash cam video of the incident. We`ll have the latest.

And later, why it is legal for people on the terror watch list to buy
guns and why the NRA wants to keep it that way.

Those stories and more, ahead.


HAYES: Today, the State Department issued a rare worldwide travel
alert, warning of an increased risk of attacks by ISIS, al Qaeda, and other
terror groups. The travel alert does not indicate intelligence of a
specific attack but says it`s due to increased terror threats.

Meanwhile, today, an explosive belt was found in a suburb south of
Paris, according to a spokesperson for the Paris prosecutor. French police
told "The A.P." the device contained the same type of explosives as those
used in the November 13th attacks.

As investigators continue the manhunt for suspects in that attack, as
Brussels is under a quasi-state of siege with the highest possible terror
warning, we`re also learning about a strange case of mistaken identity in
the wake of the raid on Saint-Denis.

Remember this photo? Widely used last week, alleging to show the
woman killed in that police raid in the Paris suburb following the attacks.
Well, it turns out that photo is not of Hasna Aitboulahcen, who is seen
here, but instead of a woman in morocco named Nabila Bakana (ph), who told
al Jazeera she is alive and well and has nothing to do with terrorism.


HAYES: I think it`s safe to say that when Donald Trump announced his
campaign for president back in mid-June, basically no one predicted he`d be
kicking off a five-month streak of dominance in the polls. After a short-
lived bump for Ben Carson, Trump is once again way out ahead in the two
most recent national polls, beating Carson by 10 percent in both.

And he`s crushing the competition in New Hampshire. A Real Clear
Politics average has him more than 14 points, or double the support of the
runner-up, Marco Rubio.

According to one of our foremost polling experts, none of that really
matters. In a post entitled "Dear Media, Stop Freaking Out About Donald
Trump`s Polls," Nate Silver argues, quote, "If past nomination races are
any guide, the vast majority of eventual Republican voters haven`t made up
their minds yet." According to Silver, while Trump has consistently
clocked around 25 percent of Republicans` support, those votes are still up
for grabs because most haven`t gotten serious about picking a candidate.

Joining me now, Michael Steele, MSNBC political analyst and former RNC
chair, and Sam Seder, MSNBC contributor and host of "The Majority Report."

And, Sam, I`ll begin with you because my sense is you don`t think Nate
is correct.

stories in FiveThirtyEight about Trump`s longevity and durability are any
indication, they`re wrong. I mean, it`s quite possible that some other
candidate will arise. It`s quite possible that in some way, that we can`t
even really it seems to imagine at this point that somehow Trump will

I mean, but the bottom line is that this is saying -- telling us
something about the Republican electorate. And we can pretend that it`s a
function of Trump, but there is a graph here from John McCain picking Sarah
Palin to Mitt Romney never making that pivot to the center after his
primary to Donald Trump. There`s something going on in the Republican
Party, and it`s being missed I think by a large portion of the media.

HAYES: Michael, do you think -- I guess I asked your opinion on
Silver`s idea, which is basically look, everyone`s way out ahead of this
people make up their minds late, particularly New Hampshire, this is going
to go away on its own. What do you think of that?

up to that last point, that it will go away on its own. I think Sam has it
pretty much dead on. I think there`s a lot that`s roiling beneath the
surface that`s getting reflected in a number of polls here and there. But
it`s really not been fully tapped into yet.

So, I think, you know, what Nate has put out there is largely true,
that there`s still a significant portion of the base that has not
necessarily voted or voiced its opinion necessarily, but I still think that
this is reflective of other things that are happening within the party that
are yet to be addressed.

And I think Donald Trump has in large measure tapped into that. And I
think quite honestly everybody else doesn`t have a freaking clue how to
deal with it.

HAYES: That I agree with. I want to show you live pictures because I
think this relates to one of the analyses. And I also am a fan of Nate`s
and I think their coverage is fascinating often and quite often quite on
the money.

One of the things I think is important as you look at him making his
way through the sea of people here, people will sometimes point, Michael,
to oh, who is leading at this point --

STEELE: Right.

HAYES: -- when we were similarly in cycle. And sometimes it`s Herman
Cain or might be Governor Rick Perry or might be Rudy Giuliani when we go
back two cycles.

STEELE: Yes, but this isn`t that.

HAYES: That`s my point. Like, you didn`t -- no one was at Rudy
Giuliani rallies like this.

STEELE: Right, exactly.

HAYES: And, you know, crowds are not votes. You know, those are
different things. Ron Paul had huge crowds and didn`t get votes.

But what you are seeing in front of you, the combination of the things
he`s saying, the kind of ugliness particularly of that rhetoric, and the
enthusiastic rapturous attention he`s getting, that is a real thing.
That`s not being created by anyone.

You agree, right, Michael?

STEELE: I do agree. And crowds, while they may not represent votes,
they do represent a mood. And they do -- you see it in Ben Carson. You
see it in Bernie Sanders. You see it on the right and the left, that with
respect to the bases of the Democrat and Republican Party there is a mood
that has settled in.

It is more pronounced obviously for the Republicans because we`ve got
a lot more going on than the Dems do right now. But at the end of the day,
that mood is something -- and this is the question which may go to what
Nate was touching on. Will that mood translate into a broader population
of voters when they get to voting in February?

HAYES: Michael, Sam has been shaking his head for 60 minutes since
you mentioned Bernie Sanders.

Go on and respond.

SEDER: Well, not just Bernie Sanders, and Ben Carson. I mean, look,
the fact of the matter is, there was a number two and anytime you had any
of those blips in 2012, you had a number two that was consistent throughout
2011 and that was Mitt Romney. There has been no such thing in this race
in 2016.

But the bottom line is -- this is not a mood about outsiders, OK?
This is not a mood because, I mean, frankly, Bernie Sanders has been a
congressman and has been in Washington for maybe as long as I`ve been an
adult at this point.

HAYES: Right.

SEDER: So this is not a mood about outsiders.

Donald Trump`s attraction from the Republican base has to do with
nativism. His campaign started with nativism on that single day. He
continues to follow that path.

The other thing is this notion of anti-PC. That is meaningless in
terms of policy. But it speaks to this notion that the conservatives have
that they don`t like what`s going on in this country, they don`t like
what`s happening. They feel that it`s being taken over by any string of
people, you want to call them gay or you want to call them Muslim, or you
want to call them non-white or brown or black.

I mean, that`s what`s going on with this Republican base. And it`s a
mistake to say it`s anything else. Not a mood about outsiderism.

HAYES: Michael?

STEELE: I never said it was a mood about outsiderism. You did.

I said it was a mood and that mood is partly what you reflected there
for sure. But it`s not just the sort of racist tent that you want to put
on it. It`s a lot more that goes to about 30 years of a base that has been
lied to, left on the side of the road, probably from a policy position
taken for granted. And now that`s all come to head. This --


HAYES: But let me --

STEELE: It goes back much further than 2009, folks.

HAYES: Let me say this because I actually think you`re both right,
right? I actually think it is a mood of nativism. I think there`s this
very strong let`s call it identity politics for a certain segment of the
population that feels they`re being left behind.

To what Michael said, I think there`s also -- there`s a component of
that when you talk about immigration and trade particularly, where those
same voters feel like they`ve been sold out by the Republican establishment
that they -- that the Republican establishment doesn`t share their views
fundamentally on immigration and trade.

And Donald Trump, and this is what we`re seeing and why I think -- why
he`s grown in strength after Paris, no one can -- the normal kinds of
political gravity that operate on actors in this situation, which is shame,
which is worrying --

SEDER: Worrying about --

HAYES: -- politeness. The party.

SEDER: All those things.

HAYES: None of those are operating. So you`re just getting that
pureed and that`s being channeled. And you`re going to see when and if
gravity reasserts itself.

Michael Steele, Sam Seder, always great to have you guys on. Thank

STEELE: Bye now.

HAYES: All right. Coming up, news of a possible indictment as Chicago
prepares for the release of dash cam footage showing the officer-involved
shooting death of Laquan McDonald. We will have the latest, ahead.


HAYES: With just hours after the deadly attacks in Paris earlier
month when Wilwaukee County sheriff David A. Clark, a frequent Fox News
guest, tweeted, quote, "if GOP plays this politically smart they can end
any chance the Dems win the White House in 2016. War is politics carried
on by other means."

That same night Ann Coulter wrote, quote, "they can wait if they like
until next November for the actual balloting but Donald Trump was elected
president tonight."

That view expressed rather crudely above that the American people turn
to the GOP during times of increased fear of terrorism is a widely held
view. One could almost call it the conventional wisdom. In fact, today
Marco Rubio released his first TV ad focusing on terrorism, specifically
the attacks in Paris.


SEN. MARCO RUBIO, (R) FLORIDA: What happened in Paris could happen
here. There is no middle ground. These aren`t disgruntled or disempowered
people. These are radical terrorists who want to kill us.

I`m Marco Rubio. I approve this message because there can be no
arrangement or negotiation. Either they win or we do.


HAYES: That ad will start airing tomorrow according to the Rubio
campaign, but new polling out today challenges the premise that Americans
turn toward the
GOP when terrorism is a major concern. A Washington Post/ABC News poll
finds when asked who they trust more to handle the threat of terrorism
Hillary Clinton or
the Republican candidates for president, the American people choose the
former secretary of state over and over again.

In fact, on that question people trust Hillary Clinton over Ben Carson
49-40, she leads Donald Trump 50-42. Ted Cruz, 48-40. Marco Rubio 47-43.
And finally Jeb Bush 46-43.


HAYES: Tonight we have a new development in the case of Laquan
McDonald, that`s the 17-year-old African-American boy who was shot and
killed by a white
Chicago police officer last October and whose death we`ve been covering for
months here on this program.

A source with intimate knowledge of the case tells WMAQ investigative
political editor Carol Marin (ph) that the officer will be indicted
tomorrow and the tape of McDonald`s death will be released on Wednesday
pursuant to a court order.

Now, at the time of the shooting all the way last October, the Chicago
Police Department did not offer an official account, but a spokesperson for
the Fraternal Order of Police union said at the time, quoting the Chicago
Tribune, that the teen began walking toward Pulaski Road and ignored the
officer`s request to drop the knife. Officers got out of their car and
began approaching McDonald again
telling him to drop the knife, Camden said. The boy allegedly lunged at
police and one of the officers opened fire. McDonald was shot in the

He was pronounced dead at nearby hospital. The medical examiner`s
showed the teen was shot not just once in the chest but 16 times in the
chest, scalp, neck, elbow, leg, arms, hand, and back. Months later the
Chicago City
council unanimously approved a $5 million settlement to the teen`s family
before any suit had been filed.

Laquan McDonald`s family and their lawyers have agreed not to release
the dash camera footage to the public while there`s still ongoing joint
state and federal criminal investigation into the shooting. However, one
of the lawyers for
the family of McDonald, who`s seen the video, described the footage to All


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Laquan is about 12 to 15 feet away from the
officers, the width of an entire lane of the southbound traffic, one
officer begins shooting. Laquan immediately spins to the ground and the
video then clearly shows that the officer continues to shoot Laquan
multiple times as he lays in the street.

16 seconds pass from the time Laquan hits the ground until the last
visible puff of smoke rises from his torso area. An officer then
approaches Laquan, stands over him, and appears to shout something as he
kicks the knife out of his hand.


HAYES: After a judge ordered the release of the video last week, a
lawyer for the officer accused of shooting 17-year-old Laquan McDonald
urged the public not to rush to judgment.


DAN HERBERT, ATTORNEY: We`re confident that my client`s actions were
not only lawful but also within department policy and within his training.
We ask that everyone please refrain from prejudging this incident solely on
the video alone.


HAYES: The city now says it will publish the video by the end of day
Wednesday. Today, in anticipation of that release Mayor Rahm Emanuel spoke
with community leaders in Chicago urging a peaceful response to the

Joining me now, Pastor Corey Brooks. He`s founder of New Beginnings
Church, who met with Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel earlier today. And pastor,
can you tell us what that meeting was like? It seems like a somewhat
strange kind of situation we found ourselves in now with this case.

COREY BROOKS, NEW BEGINNINGS CHURCH: Yeah. Well, the meeting was --
it is a
very strange situation. And we did have the meeting today along with --
before our
meeting there was another meeting with young political activists. And we
did talk with the mayor and he did voice his concerns. He expressed what
he would like for us to do and we expressed to him what we felt as well.

So, we did have the meeting and I`m hoping and praying that we will
not reach the type of situation that we`ve seen in Ferguson and that we`ve
seen in Baltimore.

HAYES: There seems to be a lot of worry about this video getting out
and the aftermath, and yet at the same time it seems to me that folks who
are in Chicago and who`ve been paying attention to this have a pretty good
idea of what happened.

BROOKS: Yeah, we have a pretty good idea of what happened. We`ve
heard the stories. We`ve heard even today from the mayor himself, what he
believed to have happened, some of the facts from the case were spoken to
us. And so we do know some of the details. One of the things that we do
know is that a young man was shot 16 times and that we believe when a lot
of people see this not to rush to judgment but when a lot of people see
this it`s going to cause a lot of damage. It`s going to bring a lot of
potential anger out of a lot of young people and we need to be prepared for

HAYES: Let me ask you this, for 14 months the city has been
essentially stonewalling about all of this, there`s been no official
comment. They have fought tooth and nail the release of that video. There
was this settlement that was passed by the city council for $5 million,
which is a sizable portion of money from the perspective of these kinds of
things. And now all of a sudden we`re going to hear that the officer is
going to be indicted and the videos are going to be released.

What`s your reaction to that timing?

BROOKS: Well, the timing is rather unusual. You know, one of the
questions that we want to ask is if you`re going to bring charges on
tomorrow, why couldn`t these charges have been brought a lot earlier. And
if you made a $5.2 million settlement, sometime after, why could you not
bring some type of charges if there were charges to be made at that time?
Why are we a year later just now bringing charges against an individual
when a suit has already been settled out of court before it was even filed,
matter of fact.

Those are questioned that need to be answered. And I`m hoping that
they`ll be answered tomorrow or on Wednesday.

HAYES: You know, my understanding is that there are members of the
family -- and I don`t know if there`s complete unanimous feelings among the
family members -- I know it`s a slightly complicated situations Laquan
McDonald was a ward of the state at the time that he was killed -- there
are members of the family who do not want the video released, who think
that no good can come of it. It`ll only serve to relive the trauma.

Is that a common feeling among folks you`re talking to?

BROOKS: Well, it`s not a common feeling amongst the community and the
people that I talk with. Most people want the video to be released. It`s
Freedom of Information Act. It`s something that every American ought to be
concerned about when the information is withheld from us, that ought to be
available to all citizens of America.

So, based upon that, there are people who want that to be released,
that`s why the suit was filed, that`s why the judge decided on their behalf
to release it. And it should be released. We should know what happened.
We should be able to determine what happened. And everyone should have a
right to see it.

HAYES: All right, Pastor Corey Brooks of Chicago, thank you for
joining me. Appreciate it.

BROOKS: Thank you.

HAYES: Coming up, why being on the terror watch list does not stop
you from being able to legally purchase a gun in the U.S. and why the NRA
is fighting to keep it that way.


HAYES: People gather in the streets of Minneapolis to protest the
death of 24-year-old Jamar Clark who was shot in the head by police last
weekend. The police union says he was reaching for a gun, witnesses say he
was handcuffed.

Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison showed up at one of the protests
himself last week, one day after a picture surfaced on Twitter of his son
at a protest, a picture that prompted Congressman Ellison to tweet, "photo
is agonizing for me to see. My son is peacefully protesting with hands up,
officer shouldering a gun. Why?"

Today Keith Ellison told me he was very concerned when he first heard
about the death of Jamar Clark but he`s confident in a Justice Department
investigation into the shooting.


REP. KEITH ELLISON, (D) MINNESOTA: All over the country and even here
in Minneapolis we have had difficulty getting independent thorough
investigations of
officer-involved shootings, particularly of African-Americans. So I was
sympathetic and highly concerned.

But you know, we`ve been in touch. We asked that the Justice
Department do an independent investigation, and they have stepped in to do
so pretty quickly. And the state of Minnesota, the bureau of criminal
apprehension has stepped in as well. So in Minneapolis we do not have the
police investigating the police. This is a good thing.

And I think that I`m confident that Vinita Gupta who is the head of
civil rights Justice right Now, she knows about the case. Obviously Civil
Rights Justice
Department is taking it seriously. And I`m confident that they are going
to investigate the case thoroughly.

But that does not mean the neighbors and community members should take
their eye off this case. I think public scrutiny is very important, public
awareness is very important. And I think transparency is something that`s
going to have to continue to be a large part of this case.


HAYES: Funeral services for Jamar Clark are planned for later this
week. We`ll be right back.


HAYES: The New York Daily News newspaper here in New York has gone to
war against the National Rifle Association and its executive vice
president, specifically its public face, Wayne LaPierre.

Last week in the wake of the Paris terror attacks The Daily News ran a
cover attacking the NRA`s, quote, "sick jihad."

Today, the newspaper offered up a front page mocking LaPierre as,
quote, "Jihadi Wayne" complete with PhotoShopped image of LaPierre as a

Daily News is assailing NRA over its opposition to a bill from
Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein and Republican Congressman Peter King
designed to prevent people on the government`s terror watch list from
purchasing guns.

From 2004 to 2014 as The Washington Post reported, over 2,000 people
on that list who the FBI suspects have some connection to terrorism were
able to legally purchase guns in the U.S. Think about that. Even though
the government views the
people on its watch list as possible terrorists or related to terrorism it
does not prevent them from legally buying firearms.

Among those who are on that list were the Kouachi Brothers, men
allegedly responsible for the attack on French satirical magazine Charlie
Hebdo. Also on the list, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, one of the two brothers behind
the marathon Boston bombing.


SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, (D) NEW YORK: The same nefarious individuals we
monitor and bar from our planes, we turn the other way when it comes to
allowing them to get guns and explosives.


HAYES: Now, the bill to keep people on the terror watch list from
buying guns was first introduced earlier this year. But Chuck Schumer and
others are making a renewed push for its passage in the wake of the Paris
attacks. Asked about the bill at a news conference last week, top Senate
Republicans pleaded ignorance.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the FVI terror watch list...

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, (R) KENTUCKY: Yeah, I`m not particularly
familiar with that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Feinstein has a bill with Peter King in
the House.

MCCONNELL: Anybody familiar with it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not familiar with it.

MCCONNELL: Yeah, I`m not familiar with the legislation so I`ll pass
on it.


HAYES: Yesterday on Meet the Press NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton
called out congress for focusing its response to the Paris attacks on the
wrong issue.


wants to
do something instead of just talking about something, help us out with that
terrorist watch, those thousands of people that can purchase firearms in
country. I`m more worried about them than I am about Syrian refugees, to
be quite
frank with you.


HAYES: Now, the NRA in response has a pretty good argument. It says
it`s trying to make sure law-abiding citizens aren`t prevented from getting
guns telling The Washington Post that, quote, "the NRA`s only objective is
to ensure that Americans who are wrongly on the list are afforded their
constitutional right to due process."

And we know from the ACLU and others there are a lot of people wrongly
on that list. But imagine for a moment what the reaction would be like if
someone on that terror watch list used a legally purchased weapon to carry
out, god forbid, something like what we saw in Paris.

When we come back, what the fact that people on the terror watch list
can buy guns says about America`s true priorities. That`s next.


HAYES: All right, joining me now to discuss the NRA effort to block a
to prevent people on the government`s terror watch list from buying guns
are Jim Rich, he`s editor-in-chief of The New York Daily News, which is
waging a kind of crusade on this, today they labeled Wayne LaPierre "Jihadi
Wayne" over his opposition of the bill. And my friend Joy Reid, MSNBC
national correspondent.

All right, Jim, so let me make the argument that the NRA makes and I
think a lot of principled liberals and civil libertarians say, which is
basically is this list is a nonsense trainwreck of a constitutional
disaster. There`s 875,000 people or some huge amount of people on it, and
you know, we`re not going to tell these people they can`t enjoy other
constitutionally protected rights like you can`t
worship at the place you want to worship or speak or vote. So why should
we take their guns away?

JIM RICH, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: 100 percent legitimate argument if it
were coming from anyone other than the NRA. It`s convenient for the NRA to
jump onto that as a defense of what is seemingly otherwise a ridiculous
stance. 2,000 terror suspects, right, have allegedly purchased weapons
over the past roughly ten years. If only 2 percent of those or so, let`s
say 1 percent, were actually legitimate terrorists and they had the intent
to carry out an act like we saw in Paris, well, you`re talking about 20 or
so people, and that`s more than enough.

You know, the NRA has roughly 5 million members, which again comes out
to about 2 percent of our entire country`s population. It`s sort of insane
that they have been able to dictate and control the conversation when it
comes to this topic.

HAYES: So, here -- but I just want to be clear here. Is this an
argument about the hypocrisy of the NRA and how insidious their role is in
this debate or is this a first order argument for this policy and this
RICH: I think it`s both. And I think it`s -- I think it`s -- the
argument for the bill because while we can agree that the terror watch
list, how people are put onto it and who is put onto it is flawed, it`s
what we have right now.

So let`s assume that okay, we`re in a time of great turbulence here in
the world, right? So, I think we need to be taking every stride that we
can to
ensure as much safety as we can for the American people. This bill seems
like it`s a pretty easy step in that direction.

Now, if you want to reconstruct how we go about creating this terror
list, well, then let`s do that. But let`s not frame it around the argument
of gun control.

HAYES: So, what this illustrates to me, right, is just the different
place that terrorism and guns occupy in our American political culture when
we think about threats and safety and danger.

Here`s some data. Since 2000, so including September 11, we`ve had a
little over 3,000 Americans die through terrorism, that`s all over the
world. Gun homicides just here is 138,000 deaths, right? But these are
just in totally different mental categories. Is that legitimate, that
they`re in different categories?

I think what hand in Paris shows that they`re not, right, this wasn`t a
series of just bombings, there were also firearms used.

HAYES: In fact, that was by far the most deadly part of it.

REID: Exactly.

And you know, we look at the really deadly and horrific massacres
we`ve seen in this country. If you then replace the characters who did
them, who are white American males, with Muslims, you would have a whole
different sort of category of
fear that would happen in the country.

I just think it`s an interesting thought experiment that when you give
the NRA the option between these maximalist positions on gun control or on
not having gun control and the potential to exercise Islamophobia or
nativism that they still come down on the side of these maximalist

And you do wonder what would the scenario be where they would support
gun control? Because in the past the NRA has supported gun control.

HAYES: OK, but isn`t that a strike in their favor? Doesn`t that say
-- what you just said, doesn`t that say the NRA is an organization with
tremendous integrity? That they`re not going to pander...

REID: Except there`s nothing in the NRA`s behavior that indicates
they care about anything other than maximizing gun sales. They have not
demonstrated in
any way a sort of care about the individual liberties of Muslim-Americans
that might be on the list. They just want to sell a lot of guns.

HAYES: What Joy just said here, Jim, I think about a lot. I mean, we
actually experienced this in real time in the network where we will find
out some news, comes across and it says there`s a mass shooting somewhere.

RICH: Yeah.

HAYES: This many shot, this many dead and we think oh, god. First
you`re upset. And then you start looking. And then there`s a fork in the
road about how big a story this is going to be and that`s who did it.

RICH: Sure.

HAYES: And if the fork in the road goes this way, say, in Oregon
where someone shot up a community college, if that had been an ISIS jihadi,
that wouldn`t have been a two or three-day story. We would still be --
that would be Paris level

RICH: Correct.

HAYES: What is that?

RICH: In what sense?

HAYES: I mean, what is that? Why is that reaction so different

RICH: Well, I think you`re picking one particular mass shooting that
probably got -- and again, I don`t know this for a fact, the least amount
of coverage.

HAYES: well, partly because we`ve become inured to it.

RICH: Sure. That`s 100 percent the easy answer. But you could also
argue that Newtown, the Virginia shooting that happened on air, these were
incidents that were not just one or two-day news cycles.

I do think, though, to Joy`s point that it might sadly take a jihadi,
a certified jihadi sort of incident here in order to have the NRA sort of
reach their
own fork in the road and say okay.

HAYES: Well, that`s to me part of the policy lesson of what happened
in Paris, which is horrifying, is that guns are really dangerous and they
were the most deadly weapon. There were these very complicated suicide
vests that were essentially used just to kill the assailants, but what
killed people were the guns. And that`s something that hangs over all of
us in a country with the amount of guns we have.

Jim Rich and Joy Reid, thank you both.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right
now. Good evening, Rachel.


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