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All In With Chris Hayes, Wednesday, November 25th, 2015

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Date: November 25, 2015
Guest: Betsy Woodruff, Dan Herbert, Larry Rogers, Mike Rawlings


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There`s something going on
in the mosques and other places.

HAYES: The danger of Donald Trump.

TRUMP: There`s some nastiness. There`s some meanness there.

HAYES: Tonight, the growing chorus inside the Republican Party using
the F-word about Donald Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want you to know that this is fascist talk.

HAYES: Then, the death of Laquan McDonald.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not going to suggest that his actions
necessarily required that he -- that he be killed.

HAYES: Tonight, my interview with the attorney for officer Van Dyke.
The ongoing scandal over what the city of Chicago knew and why it took over
400 days to do anything about it.

Plus, the Dallas mayor on armed protesters outside a mosque in Texas.

And what has become one of our favorite Thanksgiving traditions --

turkeys don`t.


HAYES: A dad pardons a Turkey as he embarrasses his daughters.

MALIA OBAMA, FIRST DAUGHTER: That was good. That was good.

BARACK OBAMA: I thought it was good.


HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Under normal circumstances, the F-word doesn`t get thrown a lot around
in mainstream politics. When people bring up fascism, it is generally
within the fever swamp of conspiracy theorists.

But this presidential campaign has been anything but normal. And now,
some prominent members of the Republican Party establishment are openly
invoking fascism to describe their own party`s front runner, Donald J.

It started last week with a series of tweets from top advisers and
supporters of Donald Trump`s opponents after Trump said he`d be open to
creating a database or registry of Muslims in America.

Here`s John Noonan, national security adviser to Jeb Bush, quote,
"Force federal registration of U.S. citizens based on religious identity is
fascism, period, nothing else to call it."

From Steve Deace, an Iowa radio host who endorsed Ted Cruz, "If Obama
proposed the same religious registry as Trump, every conservative in the
country would call it what it is, creeping fascism."

And from Max Boot, foreign policy adviser to Marco Rubio, "Trump is a
fascist, period. And that`s not a term I use loosely or often. But he`s
earned it."

One of Trump`s lesser known rivals, former Virginia Governor Jim
Gilmore who`s angling for the nomination himself, has actually used the F-
word himself.


Trump proposes a federal deportation force to rip up our society at a very
time when we need unity in the face of these challenges. I want you to
know that this is fascist talk. It is unworthy of the great Republican
Party of the United States. It may be acceptable to some people, but it is
not acceptable to me.


HAYES: Today, another candidate took it to an entirely new level,
releasing a dramatic online ad directed at Trump.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You might not care if Donald Trump says Muslims
must register with their government because you`re not one. And you might
not care if Donald Trump says he is going to round up all the Hispanic
immigrants because you`re not one. And you might not care if Donald Trump
says it`s OK to rough up black protesters because you`re not one.

And you might not care if Donald Trump wants to suppress journalists
because you`re not one.

Now, think about this, if he keeps going and he actually becomes
president, he might just get around to you.


HAYES: Now, if that sounds familiar, it is because it paraphrases the
legendary poem by the German pastor Martin Niemoller, who survives seven
years in Nazi concentration camps.

It goes like this, "First, they came for the socialists, and I did not
speak out. Because I was not a socialist. They came for the trade
unionists, and I did not speak out, because I was not a trade unionist.
And then they came for the Jews and I did not speak out, because I was not
a Jew. And then they came for me and there was no left to speak for me."

Watching that ad, it`s hard not to conclude that John Kasich, the
sitting Republican governor of Ohio, is drawing an explicit parallel of
Donald Trump and the rise of the Third Reich. Lest we forget, Trump is a
man who kicked off his campaign by calling Mexican immigrants criminals and
rapists when he began his campaign and paid a price with business deals, he
has spent almost six months at the top of the polls, the most popular
candidate in the GOP field, surging as of late.

And there`s clearly demand for what Trump is selling and it`s not new,
it`s been present in the base for years, fueled by conservative leaders and
elected officials. In the wake of the attacks in Paris, Trump seemed to
have crossed the line in the eyes of some fellow Republicans, starting with
his professed openness to requiring Muslims to register in a database or
carry a special ID. In just the last few days, he`s managed to flirt with
some of the most recognizable aspects of fascism, for example, political
violence, as we documented on the show, protesters have been assaulted by
Trump supporters on numerous occasions.

And after African-American demonstrator was filmed being attacked at
rally on Saturday, this was Trump`s response:


TRUMP: I had 10,000 people in the room yesterday, 10,000 people. And
this guy started screaming by himself and they -- I don`t know, rough up?
He should have been -- maybe he should have been roughed up, because it was
absolutely disgusting what he was doing.


HAYES: Trump seems to favor a charismatic strongman approach to
leadership, praising Vladimir Putin for that very quality, and building his
own campaign around a cult of personality.


TRUMP: This is what I call a real supporter. Wow. Thank you, man.

Are you married? Are you happy with your husband? She said, yes.
She fantasizes that he`s really the real Donald Trump. Can you believe it?


HAYES: In addition to calling for surveillance of U.S. mosques, Trump
wants neighbors to profile and spy on each other.


TRUMP: But you people, and me and everybody, you know when somebody
moves to an apartment near you or to a house near you, you`re pretty smart,
right? We know if there`s something going on. Report them. Most likely,
you will be wrong and that`s OK. But let the local police go in and check

And you will get rid of this stuff. That`s the best way. Everybody`s
their own cop in a way. I mean, you got to do it.


HAYES: Joining me now, former Vermont governor and DNC chair, Howard

Well, what do you make of all this?

HOWARD DEAN, FORMER DNC CHAIR: I make two things of this. One,
Republicans are in full terror mode that Donald Trump is going to get the
nomination, and they think he can`t win. And two, this is a very
interesting, watching all these people who are all authoritarians
themselves, called Donald Trump a fascist. The Republican Party is an
authoritarian party.

If you believe --

HAYES: Well, let me just say, they would argue that we`re the
opposite, that they believe in limited government and strict restrictions
on what the government can do.

DEAN: Well, they do and they don`t. They also believe in restrict
the right to vote. Any party which, as a party, and this one is a party
that has done this, which restricts the right to vote, is a party that
places their own authority above the authority of the people and above the
value of democracy. So, I`ve never thought --

HAYES: So, you think -- you`re saying that efforts by Republicans,
particularly the state level, to restrict the franchise, voter ID, all
sorts of things, show a kind of anti-Democratic impulse in the party?

DEAN: Absolutely. It is not only that, here we are talking about
taking away people`s rights. What about the Republican Party taking away
the rights of women away to decide for their own -- their own reproductive
future? This is a party that has a strong authoritarian bent. It has for
a very long time and now, they are complaining that Donald Trump is a

HAYES: But there is a difference. There is a difference between
people`s positions on, say, abortion, right, and the idea of having Muslims
register in some special database. That`s your reaction.

DEAN: OK. So, their view is it`s OK to take away people`s right to
vote if they happen to be poor or black or elderly, but it`s not OK to put
people on a registration. I don`t think either one is OK. We are talking
about grades of authoritarianism here.

HAYES: To me, what`s more indicative, frankly, the kind of backlash
he is getting now is not precipitated by the first day, when he basically
said Mexico is sending rapists and criminals to -- north of the border.

DEAN: We also know that Republicans have been dog whistling this
stuff for a long time. Look at Romney saying I`m not going to -- I will
veto the DREAM Act if it gets to my desk. I mean, look at Hispanic --

HAYES: I feel like you are conflating a mode of politics that Donald
Trump is channeling here that is attracting this attention with the sort of
policy positions of the Republican Party.

DEAN: The policy positions are dog whistles to the same people
enthusiastic about Donald Trump. That`s the point I`m trying to make is.
And what`s happened is there was, quote/unquote, "respectable ring of the
Republican Party" has now seep the naked results of exactly what happens
when somebody lays it all out there.

HAYES: So, your case is that what was essentially done by nudge and
wink and --

DEAN: Exactly.

HAYES: -- and dog whistle.

DEAN: That`s exactly right.

HAYES: Playing to certain grievances.

DEAN: Hanging it all thought and scaring the living hell out of the
Republicans because the Republicans knew that their view was never going to
be successful anyway in front of a general electorate and it hasn`t for
quite some time. What they are now afraid of is here`s a guy out there
just laying it all out, laying their case out in language that everybody
can understand. They are not going to like that and they don`t like it and
they`re scared to death of Donald Trump.

HAYES: The first thing you said about the desperation, it does strike
me that you can feel a little bit of panic right now.

DEAN: I have never seen anybody called a fascist, let alone the
leading candidate of the party, by the people in the party.

HAYES: I`m an MSNBC host and I don`t make a habit of coming in here -
- call people fascists on the air. Max Boot, Marco Rubio guy, just says
he`s fascist, full stop, he`s earned the title.

DEAN: These guys are terrified. They`re absolutely terrified,
because there is a winning path for Donald Trump to win and we are going to
know what it is on the 15th of March, where Florida, the first winner-take-
all state, if Donald Trump wins Florida, not only is Marco Rubio and Jeb
Bush dead, they are all dead `cause it is a winner-take-all state. And
they know it.

HAYES: March 15th. And Donald Trump, let`s just remember, it is
important that you say March 15th, that is Florida, that is winner-take-
all, huge amount of delegates and it is also the state where his -- Donald
Trump polling has, from the very beginning, been perhaps the most dominant.

DEAN: Right. I agree. It`s absolutely critical. This -- this is
do-or-die time. You`re seeing this now because the Republicans are not
stupid. They now realize that not only is Donald Trump the real thing, he
is now the odds-favorite to win the nomination.

HAYES: All right. Howard Dean, thank you very much. Have a great

DEAN: Thank you.

HAYES: Joining me now, Betsy Woodruff. She`s politics reporter for
"The Daily Beast", and Josh Barro, MSNBC contributor and correspondent for
"The Upshot" at "The New York Times."

Betsy, your interpretation of what Governor Dean was just saying about
the sense of panic. I can`t tell -- I can`t tell if it`s panic or it`s
genuine outrage that people are giving expression to. What`s your read on
it as someone who spends a lot of time reporting on this?

BETSY WOODRUFF, THE DAILY BEAST: Panic, outrage, and in some
quarters, perhaps even resignation. I mean, poll numbers don`t lie. Even
if Trump can`t win Iowa, the reality is that Florida is a really big deal
and it makes things uncomfortable for Republicans.

Obviously, it makes this -- I mean, from a strategic perspective,
potentially disastrous if he is the nominee. The fact they are now using
fascist to describe him also, though, is really important. And I think
part of the reason that we see so many Republicans use that term is that
kind of the implication is that he`s not a conservative, right?

HAYES: That`s right.

WOODRUFF: That Trump has no time for gradualism. He has no time for
incrementalism, that he has Russell Kirk and Edmund Burke spinning in their
graves, by sort of pigeon holing him as a fascist, they have a way of
saying, his specific ideology is not compatible with our ideology and
separating themselves from him.

HAYES: Josh, this is a key point and I keep seeing people -- you
know, sort of growing anti-Trump backlash among what`s called the
conservative intelligentsia, right? And these are people that I read
regularly, who I`m in contact with, and sort of correspondent with.

And they keep making this argument, which I think is -- it bemuses me
because I don`t think it`s particularly effective to its intended audience,
which is, well, he is not a real conservative because he is not true to
small government principles. For instance, he likes eminent domain.

It seems to me a big misreading of the emotional core of that
movement`s own adherence.

JOSH BARRO, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: But, I think this is also interesting
in that there have been a lot of pieces in the last few days this talk
about is Donald Trump a fascist, have to start with, well, what is fascism

And it`s interesting because fascism does not have a set of policy
prescriptions at its core in the way that, say, socialism does. Socialism
involves the government owning means of production. Fascism is much more
about process and attitudes toward how government should work and the idea
of having a strong man and the need to put out unprecedented solutions.

You can have a fascist state with low taxes or you can have a fascist
state with high taxes.

HAYES: Right.

BARRO: And part of what`s being embodied here is that fascists can
move around a lot, ideologically and circumstances can change and the
crisis that required one set of policies yesterday might require another
set of policies tomorrow. And we need to rely on this -- on this visionary
smart leader to figure out what when.

And so, I actually -- I don`t think calling Trump a fascist is really
productive because I think it is most lay term people throw around for
people they think are terrible. But I do think one thing that is embodied
in here is that Donald Trump has a certain set of policies that are very
anti-immigrant, very appealing to certain kinds of conservatives.

Sixteen years ago when he talked about running for president, Donald
Trump was for a wealth tax, saying we needed more gun regulation. And so,
Donald Trump basically thinks we need whatever Donald Trump in his infinite
wisdom thinks we need right now.

And I think these conservatives, among other things, are afraid he
became president, might see a new incarnation of Donald Trump much farther
to the left.

HAYES: Let me say the core of this, Betsy, you know, there`s a book
about this published in 2005 on fascism, as Josh was saying, the sort of
definition is a little difficult.

One of the things in fascist (ph) is sort of an obsession with
decline, right, that the nation has been brought to its knees, it`s been
brought to its knees usually by outsiders or infiltrators in some way, its
lost its purity, and that the way to the redeem and revive the nation is
through a strong, charismatic, populist leader who channels the kind of
pure nationness against the outsiders and the infiltrators.

You know, those are things that are -- I think you just -- that
describes essentially the Trump appeal at this moment, don`t you agree?

WOODRUFF: Yes, exactly, we`ve seen this movie before, right? It is
basically -- fascism is basically Conan the Barbarian`s approach to
politics. You know, crush their enemies before you, lamentations of their
woman, that`s kind of the Donald Trump project. That`s basically what
Paxton describes.

I think one important distinction and one place where Trump`s basic --
basic platform doesn`t comport with Paxton is an element of fascism and I
believe Paxton highlights is fascistic leaders make certain demands of
their constituents, often mandatory civil service, mandatory military
service. Trump however is basically saying deportation force for you (ph),
the fact that public and primary voters respect scratching their heads at
all at the prospect that Trump would --


HAYES: I like this argument, Betsy.

WOODRUFF: It`s interesting.

HAYES: It`s important argument here. Trump is not a fascist because
unlike fascists, he is not actually making any demands of his followers, if
I`m following you.

Let`s get back to the original point which I think is as a descriptive
matter, whether or not this word is effective or accurate in this case. A,
I think he`s violated deeply held-held norms of American politics, calling
for an identity card or database. I mean, that offended people, I think
rightly, but number two, this idea of panic among the establishment.

Do you think that`s what`s happening?

BARRO: Oh, I think they`re absolutely panicked. I think keep in
mind, like if Donald Trump doesn`t get the nomination there are a number of
very unpalatable options here for the establishment.

Ted Cruz --

HAYES: Ted Cruz has got this amazing strategy of being, well, I`m not
Donald Trump, basically.

BARRO: Yes. Even Marco Rubio, who has become the establishment
figure -- remember, he came into the Senate in 2010 by running against the
anointed figure of the Republican Party establishment in Florida. Charlie
Crist was supposed to be the Republican nominee for the Senate back then.
Marco Rubio is substantively much farther to the right on issues than any
Republican nominee we have seen for some time. He`s for no capital gains

So I think there`s a lot of reason for panic there, but I think they
are panicked about more than one thing at once. They`re worried Trump will
lose. They`re worried Trump will be a bad president if he won. Maybe
worried he would do terrible things for the world.

HAYES: Yes, there`s also that. Betsy Woodruff, Josh Barro, thank you

BARRO: Thank you.

WOODRUFF: Sure thing.

HAYES: All right. These are live pictures from Chicago tonight where
a much smaller group of demonstrators are out on the night after the second
night after the video of Laquan McDonald`s death was released.

Up next, my interview with the lawyer for the Chicago police officer
who shot and killed Laquan McDonald.

Plus, disturbing images from a protest outside a Texas mosque. I will
talk to the mayor of Dallas to get his response.

And later, President Obama`s annual turkey pardon, which he treated
with the proper amount of reverence such a tradition deserves.


OBAMA: As you may have heard, for months, there has been a fierce
competition between a bunch of turkeys trying to win their way into the
White House.


Some of you caught that.



HAYES: Today in Minneapolis, a funeral service was held for Jamar
Clark, the unarmed black man who was fatally shot by police on November
15th. Hundreds attended the service, during which a friend read the last
thing Clark posted on Facebook days before he was shot dead.

"I haven`t been feeling good, but not like sick, more like time is
running out. Like I don`t have too much time, but I know I have some type
of purpose on this earth."

A state criminal investigation into the police shootings is ongoing,
as well as a Justice Department civil rights probe.

Following today`s service, the funeral procession drove to the
Minneapolis fourth precinct where Black Lives Matter protesters have been
camped out since Clark`s death. Inside that same precinct, four men are
being held in the shooting of five Black Lives Matter demonstrators Monday
night near that encampment. Victims suffered non-life threatening

Police say three of the suspects are white while the race of the
fourth has not yet been released.

Last night, gunshots once again rang out near the protests. No one
was injured. The police arrested one suspect.

Demonstrators have vowed to continue their vigil tonight.


HAYES: Protesters back on the streets of Chicago tonight as the
nation continues to react to the video of the shooting death of 17-year-old
Laquan McDonald, who died on October 20, 2014 last year, after Chicago
police officer, Jason Van Dyke, shot him 16 times.

Yesterday, Officer Van Dyke was charged with first-degree murder.
Today, his record as a police officer is coming under new scrutiny. The
14-year veteran had, according to his lawyer, quote, "zero discipline on
his record."

That part appears to be true. Van Dyke had not been disciplined for
complaints filed prior to the McDonald shooting.

That does not mean there weren`t complaints. According to published
reports, there are between 17 and 20 complaints, 15 of which were resolved
with no discipline.

According to "Chicago Tribune," one complainant, Ed Nance, claimed Van
Dyke handcuffed him so violently during a 2007 traffic stop, he seriously
injured both shoulders. A federal jury ultimately awarded Nance $350,000
in damages.

I asked Officer Van Dyke`s attorney, Dan Herbert, about his client`s
record as a police officer and his apparent history of complaints.


that`s high number of complaints. But I would just state that I don`t have
any independent knowledge about those cases. But they were not sustained
for a reason and the reason must have been that there was no merit in the

HAYES: So, what you are saying is that we should trust the internal
disciplinary process that found no discipline for him?

HERBERT: Sure. There`s no evidence to suggest that there was any
flaw in the investigation. So, I would say absolutely you can trust it.

HAYES: Let me ask you this. Obviously, you are -- you were
representing this man and it`s your job to defend him and people are going
to draw the conclusions they draw from that videotape.

Can you tell me how your client feels? Does he feel sad, grief,
regret that this young man lost his life?

HERBERT: Well, he is -- he is certainly -- I think any police officer
that takes somebody`s life -- I`ve represented hundreds of police officers
that have been involved in shootings and every one of them displays some
grief over it. People agonize in different ways.

Certainly, Jason did not want to shoot Mr. McDonald but he felt that
he had to because he was brought in to this situation, quite frankly, by
Mr. McDonald.

HAYES: What do you mean by that?

HERBERT: Well, like my client was out on routine patrol and the call
came over the radio and there was a pretty serious disturbance and he did
what he was required to do as a police officer, he responded to that call
for help and once he got out of the vehicle, things escalated quickly for
him and he took action.

HAYES: I just want to be clear of the logic of saying that he was
brought into this situation by Mr. McDonald would seem to place the blame
on Mr. McDonald for his own death. Is that what you`re saying?

HERBERT: No, that`s a pretty harsh characterization. But the fact
does remain that Mr. McDonald was certainly breaking the law that evening,
and but for his actions, there never would have been an incident involving
my client and Mr. McDonald for that matter.

HAYE: Sure, but --

HERBERT: But no, we`re not going to suggest that his actions
necessarily required that he be killed.

HAYES: Yes. I just want to be clear that you will concede that there
is some set of actions that a police officer could take, I`m not saying
your client did, but could take in a situation in which they are called to
a scene that do violate the law that do violate their code of conduct, that
could be found guilty of murder?

HERBERT: Oh, absolutely.

HAYES: OK. Can you talk about the last 400 days? I think is there a
general sense of a lot of people watching this that the flurry of activity
we see in the last 48 hours precipitated by the decision for the court to
release the video. Is that the perception of you and your client?

HERBERT: Yes, it is. We don`t have any inside knowledge about it but
I believe even the state`s attorney admitted that her decision was
certainly prompted or at least escalated, moved up, based upon the judge`s
decision to release the videotape.

HAYES: Was your client aware of -- he was removed to desk duty or
placed on desk duty I believe nine days after this shooting. Was it his
perception there were a series of investigations into him during that long
period of time in which he remained on desk duty?

HERBERT: Well, he knew that there was investigations but it wasn`t
until later on in the process that he learned which agencies were
conducting the investigations. He knew that there would be an internal
investigation done by the Chicago police department, as is routinely done
in any shooting cases, but at some point after that, we became aware of the
fact that the United States attorney`s office was conducting the
investigations into the shooting.

HAYES: All right. Dan Herbert, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

HERBERT: Sure. Thanks.

HAYES: All right, we are keeping an eye on the protests as they
develop in Chicago tonight. A smaller crowd tonight, we are told, a lot of
police on the streets. But so far, no incidents.

The president this hour is weighing in on Facebook. "Like many
Americans, I was deeply disturbed by the footage of the fatal shooting of
17-year-old Laquan. This Thanksgiving, I ask everybody to keep those who
suffered tragic loss in our thoughts and prayers and thankful for the
overwhelming majority of men and women in uniform who protect our
communities with honor. I`m personally grateful to people in my hometown
for keeping protests peaceful.

Up next, there are still more questions than answers about how the
city of Chicago handled this case. We will develop into what is an ongoing
scandal, next.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chicago police say they had no choice but to shoot
17-year-old boy who threatened them with a knife late last night. The teen
later died at the hospital.

NBC 5`s Susan Carlson (ph) joining us live at 41st and Pulaski, where
this all happened. She joins us now with the very latest -- Susan?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, Stefan (ph), right now, I can tell that
you police have cleared this scene after gathering evidence overnight. The
Independent Police Review Authority is investigating, but police say this
was a clear-cut case of self-defense.


HAYES: Clear-cut case of self-defense.

At the time of the shooting death of 17-year-old Laquan McDonald 13
ago, much of the initial account upon which several news organizations
based their
stories at the time was provided by the spokesman for Chicago`s Fraternal
Order of Police at Camden.

Camden, who arrived at the scene and was paraphrased and quoted by
news organizations gave an account of the shooting of Laquan McDonald that
was later contradicted by the dash cam video.

Here`s how NBC`s Chicago affiliate, WMAQ, which characterized the
police account of the shooting as a clear-cut case of self-defense reported
on Camden`s explanations of what happened when police approached Laquan.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fraternal Order of Police Spokesman Pat Camden
says as
other officers approached to arrest him, he lunged at one of them with the
knife and as soon as that happened, they shot him.


HAYES: Now, that account was contradicted by a witness who told ABC 7
Chicago McDonald was not a threat to police.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was super exaggerated, you don`t need that
many cops to be dealing -- they didn`t need to shoot him. They didn`t.
They basically had him face to face, no purpose why they had to shot --
shoot him.


HAYES: But ABC 7 Chicago also had this account, again, from Pat


somebody with a knife in a crazed condition who stabs out tires on a
vehicle and tires on a squad car, you obviously aren`t going to sit down
and have a cup of coffee with him.

He is a very serious threat to the officers and he leaves them no
choice at that point, but to defend themselves.


HAYES: Now, that might have been the end of the story. Police union
spokesman says it was self-defense, clear cut, and then an unnamed
approached independent journalist Jamie Calvin and attorney Craig Fatterman
(ph), who was on our show last night. The whistleblower told them there
was a video and that it was horrific, according to Calvin, speaking to

After a FOIA request, Calvin obtained a copy of McDonald`s autopsy and
autopsy report revealed that 16 shots were fired into Laquan McDonald,
hitting him in his chest, neck, head, back, right leg and both arms.

Now, that crucially differs from the initial reports that said simply,
McDonald was shot in the chest. Initial reports also said that, quote,
"the boy allegedly lunged at police."

Today, after the dash cam video clearly showed Laquan McDonald did not
lunge at officers, Pat Camden, that spokesperson, distanced himself from
those comments attributed to him, telling The Washington Post, "I never
talked to the officer, period. I have no idea where it came from. It was
being told to me after it was to somebody else who was told by another
person. This was two hours after the
incident. It`s hearsay is basically what I`m putting out at that point.
It`s information that has been given to me by a third party that gathered
that information from other parties."

Whatever the implications of that claim, this isn`t just about officer
Van Dyke and Laquan McDonald, there were numerous other officers present
who presumably filed reports about what happened, numerous officers
internally who may have seen the tape and there are a lot of questions the
mayor and the police department are
going to have to answer about whether this was adequately investigated
before that whistleblower spoke out and before the public started asking

Joining me now, Larry Rogers. He was Cook County board of review
commissioner and a civil rights attorney.

And Commissioner Rogers, are you confident that this was all handled
according to protocol and on the up and up?


In fact, there is a huge question in our minds why as to why they
would be fighting to restrict the public from seeing this video for so

If you`re familiar with the time line, you will also know that soon
after October 14th -- 20th when this happened, within a couple of months,
we had a
mayoral election.

So, there`s a great deal of concern as to whether there was a
conspiracy, quite frankly, to hide this information from the public to
avoid its potential
impact on the mayoral election.

HAYES: I just want to be clear, are you suggesting that then-
incumbent Mayor Rahm Emanuel running for re-election and facing it a few
months later took actions to hide this videotape in order to improve his
chances of re-election?

ROGERS: What I`m telling you is that we have a videotape of a murder
that directly contradicts the description of the officer that this young
man lunged at him. This is not a case where you have to identify the
shooter. All you have to do is determine whether in fact this guy -- this
young man lunged at the officer and there was a justifiable shooting.

The video absolutely refutes it. Therefore, you have a basis to
charge him.

So, why did it take 400 days to charge a Chicago Police Department
Officer for what we have on videotape that is clearly an unjustifiable
homicide of a 17-year-old young man?

And does that have something to do with the timing of the election
that was impending is a very legitimate question that I think many need to

HAYES: Well, how would that be answered? I mean, the city`s
position, as I
understand it, has been this, that there is a process, there are a series
of processes. First, the IPRA, which is the Independent Police Review
Authority and all police officer-involved shootings go through them so they
had it. We didn`t want to tamper with that, we are not going to get
involved in that.

The state`s attorney then came in began their own investigation, there
was a Justice investigation, and the mayor`s office basically says, look,
we don`t want to be -- we don`t want to be tampering in any of these
independent investigations. This had nothing to do with us, essentially.

ROGERS: Well, as you noted a moment ago, Pat Camden made very
comments about how this was an act of self-defense. So there was direct
involvement immediately at the time, which he is now distancing himself

What we need to avoid and what has been the problem in Chicago is this
culture of protecting officers when, in fact, the evidence does not support
it. So, from the very get-go, there seems to be an effort to defend the
officers before the facts are known. In this particular case, where you
have a videotape, there is
not a whole a lot of investigation that needs to be done. The entire
shooting is on videotape.

In 15 second, he fired 16 shots, many of which were fired while the
young man was on the ground. This man should have been charged within a
matter of days, weeks, at most, months. And absolutely under no
circumstances should it have taken 400 days.

And I think the...

HAYES: final question.

Yeah, please, let me just say final -- that Pat Camden is a union
official, not a city official. But final question is, are you confident
that had a whistleblower not come forward to Jamie Calvin and Craig
Futterman (ph), had the FOIA not been filed to get the autopsy, that if the
process had been left to its own devices that we would be here with this

ROGERS: I`m absolutely not confident of that. And that`s one of the
growing concerns and why I would suggest we need a special prosecutor in
this case. The prosecutor held on to the videotaped shooting of a 17-year-
old by a police officer
and didn`t charge him for 400 days and in essence, was forced to charge him
once a judge ruled that the video needed to be release, that`s entirely
unacceptable. She has lost -- the public has no confidence in the fact
that she will charge him.

And if you know the history of Chicago, there was another officer-
involved shooting that resulted in the death of a young lady named Rekia
Boyd (ph) and that officer basically was let off Scott free because this
prosecutor filed the wrong charge against him.

So, we have no confidence in this prosecutor`s ability to properly
prosecute this officer and we need a special prosecutor in this case.

HAYES: All right, Larry Rogers. Thank you.

ROGERS: Thank you.

HAYES: Let me note something before we move on here -- up next, it`s
almost two months since the U.S. air strike on the Doctors Without Borders
hospital and yet the explanation continues to change. The latest ahead.


HAYES: Today, almost two months after a U.S. plane fired 211 shells
at Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan, killing at
least 31 civilians, the Pentagon previewed its own internal review of its
actions, concluding that a series of avoidable human errors combined with
systems and
procedural failures led to the catastrophic strike.


GEN. JOHN CAMPBELL, U.S. ARMY: The report also determined that the
personnel who requested the strike and those who executed it from the air
did not undertake the appropriate measures to verify that the facility was
a legitimate military target.


HAYES: It was the fifth version of an official U.S. explanation for
the air strike in less than two months. Initially, the Pentagon said the
hospital may have been collateral damage. Then the Department of Defense
said the air strike was conducted against insurgents who were firing
directly on U.S. forces. Just a day later, the top U.S. general in
Afghanistan said it was actually Afghan forces who were taking direct fire
and who called in the U.S. strike.

That same week, the story shifted again when General Campbell told a
senate committee that the decision to provide aerial fires was a U.S.
decision made within the U.S. chain of command.

The Pentagon internal report, according to The New York Times who
spoke to an official who had been briefed on it, says that while the U.S.
violated its own rules because no American or Afghan troops were in extreme
danger, the hospital was not intentionally targeted.

The crew, according to the Pentagon, believed they were firing on a
nearby building instead, which had reportedly been overrun by the Taliban.
Doctors Without Borders responded to that explanation saying, in part,
quote, it is shocking that an attack can be carried out when U.S. forces
have neither eyes on a target nor access to a no strike list and have
malfunctioning communications systems.

The frightening catalog of errors outlined today, illustrates gross
negligence on the part of U.S. forces and violations of the rules of war.

Prior to the attack, the medical aid organization had repeatedly
reminded the U.S. military of the coordinates of the hospital. They also
revealed they had, quote, frantically called the U.S. military officials to
try and stop the attack while it was happening.

It lasted for almost half an hour.

Today, the group reiterated their calls for an independent impartial
investigation into the airstrike, an airstrike they have said likely
amounts to a war crime.

Given all that`s transpired, some independent accounting of what
exactly happened in Kunduz seems desperately needed.



JERY STRITZKE, CEO OF REI: I`m Jerry Stritzke, the CEO of REI. This
Black Friday, we`re closing all 143 of our stores and we`re paying our
employees to get outside, because we believe a life lived outside is a life
well lived. I`d rather be in the mountains than in the aisles.

Join us on November 27 in opting outside. Thanks.


HAYES: A month ago, the CEO of REI announced that the outdoor
sporting equipment retailer would be closed on Black Friday. Its employees
given the day off with pay.

Walmart, meanwhile is taking a very different approach, opening
tomorrow, Thanksgiving Day, at 6 p.m., a move that requires workers to cut
short Thanksgiving Day celebrations with their families.

And the next day, on Black Friday, members of the group Our Walmart
will protest the company`s labor practices for the fourth year in a row,
calling for a $15 hour wage and fairer scheduling practices.

Thanks to a blockbuster new story from Bloomberg Business Week, we
know the lengths Walmart goes to to monitor those protesters and block
unionization efforts.

A page reveals that Walmart considered Our Walmart enough of a threat,
it hired an intelligence gathering service from Lockhead Martin, contacted
the FBI and kept eyes on employees and activists prominent in the group.

According to the story, managers reported union-related conversations
to Walmart headquarters. Stores were ranked by labor activity. And the
company would dispatch a team of security, labor relations and media
relations personnel to combat the protests.

Walmart responded to the story with a statement to Bloomberg that
read, in part, quote, "unfortunately there are occasions when an outside
group`s attempting to deliberately disrupt our business and on behalf of
our customers and associates, we take action accordingly."

While we all understand that shopping is, of course, the reason for
the season, Thanksgiving actually has a whole other moral and social
dimension which has to do with taking in strangers and offering them

More on that next.


HAYES: You might know the town of Irving, Texas, as the former
hometown of Ahmed Mohammed, the boy arrested because he brought a clock to
school and his teacher thought it was a bomb.

Well, in Saturday in that same town, armed protesters gathered outside
the Islamic Center of Irving, most carrying long guns, some masked, in what
they called a protest to, quote, "stop the Islamization of America."

You can see one of the masked protesters holding a gun in this video,
shot by a fox 4 reporter Zahed Arab (ph) outside the mosque and posted to

It was a legitimately frightening scene as people headed into the
crossed paths with the gun-wielding sometimes masked protesters.

The protest organizer today went even further, publishing the names
and addresses of Muslims in Irving on Facebook. Telling the Dallas
News he believed that Irving mosque had established the country`s first
Islamic court to practice Sharia law, a false rumor that Irving mayor Beth
Van Dyyne has pushed in speeches to Tea Party groups and in interviews with
Glenn Beck and others.

Now, Irving is a suburb of the city of Dallas. That city has a mayor
who has struck a very different tone.

Joining me now is the mayor of Dallas Mike Rawlings.

And Mayor Rawlings, first your reaction to what is happening in the
nearby town of Irving.

MIKE RAWLINGS, MAYOR OF DALLAS: Well, I`m terrifically proud of Texas
and of Dallas, really, all of DallasFfort Worth is so growing. Like all of
America, we have a few people that are out there in the fringe that are
wrong-minded and I think we have got to realize that they don`t speak for
everybody else.

We have got a great Muslim community, have met with many imams and
really the whole faith-based community is lifting our Muslim brothers and
sisters up in this time.

So, a blip on the screen and we move on to be a very generous and hard
working city.

HAYES: You know, your governor, Greg Abbott there, has been one of
the most vocal governors in saying that he will not allow Syrian refugees
to resettle. He`s also gone a step further, he has written letter to
social service agencies who may be providing relief to the folks, saying,
basically I direct your agencies to use your full authority to comply with
the direction that he has given, which is to not do anything to resettle

As a Texan, how do you feel about the big government coming in and
telling social service agency what is they can and cannot do?

RAWLINGS: Well, look, the governor and I agree on a lot of things --
how to do business in Texas, early childhood education. We disagree on
this issue. I believe -- we do agree -- I think all of us want to
annihilate ISIS and send them to the ninth circle of Dante`s hell, but how
we deal with refugees is a whole other issue.

I think we need to put the mirror up to ourselves and say what does
this say about us as leaders and steps of this country and I think we
should listen to Matthew 25 and I think the Bible speaks very clearly about
how we deal with strangers and we need to take them in.

HAYES: Do your constituents support that position? Have you been
getting backlash for that?

RAWLINGS: I am -- been lifted up in the last week with so many people
that are proud about being in Dallas, because we do have open arms. There
are people that don`t agree with me. There`s no question the -- some of
the emails and texts I`ve gotten, but that`s what makes our country go
around. And that`s what makes people watch TV for you because there`s
both sides on this issue.

And I understand it.

The key thing, though, is to focus on the enemy and to be steely-eyed
about that, bring the tenor of the conversation down and kind of button the
lips a little
bit so we can focus on destroying this enemy and at the same time, making
us strong
during this Thanksgiving holiday.

HAYES: All right. Mayor Mike Rawlings of Dallas, thank you very

RAWLINGS: Thank you.

HAYES: Coming up, President Obama reaches peak dad trolling at
today`s time-honored tradition of the presidential turkey pardon. You
absolutely do not want to
miss this.


HAYES: There`s a great tradition on Thanksgiving Eve, and I`m not
talking about the holiday tradition of the president pardoning turkeys,
which is frankly ludicrous and sort of cringe-inducing. It is the
tradition of President Barack
Obama pardoning turkeys while simultaneously mocking that tradition and
evincing total contempt for it, all while forcing his embarrassed daughters
to be present over the years.

That`s exactly what happened this afternoon during a ceremony in the
White House Rose Garden.


to publicly thank Malia and Sasha for once again standing here with me
during the turkey pardon.


OBAMA: They do this solely because it makes me feel good, not because
they actually think that this is something I should be doing. It is hard
to believe that this is my 7th year of pardoning a turkey. Time flies,
even if Turkeys don`t.

SASHA OBAMA, DAUGHTER: That was good. That was good.

OBAMA: You think it`s funny, too, don`t you? I know some folks think
tradition is a little silly. I do not disagree. I`ve got to listen to my
say I`m often too soft on turkeys. And I`m sure the press is digging into
whether or not the turkeys I pardoned have really rededicated their lives
to being good turkey citizens.


HAYES: As best as we can tell, the turkeys Obama has pardoned have
never been charged with a crime.

That is All In for this evening. It is, of course, Thanksgiving eve
and this is my favorite holiday, it really is, especially during times of
tremendous fear and tumult and lots of very awful things happening in the
news. It is wonderful to have an opportunity, to take a moment and look at
the people that we love. If you are so lucky to be around them or
unlucky, as is sometimes the case. And thank them and thank whoever it is
you thank for having the opportunity to be around them.

And I want to take the opportunity to wish all of you a very happy,
healthful, joyful thanksgiving.

And this is our third ever Thanksgiving ever here on All In, so I want
to thank you, the viewers, for coming back night after night and to all the
amazing staff and crew here who make this show happen. I am very grateful
to be able to do this job. And the Rachel Maddow Show starts right now.


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