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'Up with Steve Kornacki' for Saturday, November 28th, 2015

Read the transcript to the Saturday show

Date: November 28, 2015
Guest: Lynn Sweet, Amy Holmes, Ezra Klein, Allan Lichtman, Scott Behson,
Robert Thompson, Jack Rico


RICHARD LUI, MSNBC ANCHOR: Three people killed in a shooting stand-off at
a Planned Parenthood clinic.

Very good morning to you, I`m Richard Lui. Thanks for getting UP with us
this Saturday morning. A 57-year-old man is in custody this morning
following a shooting standoff at a women`s health clinic in Colorado
Springs, three people killed including a police officer, another 20
injured. All the details in just a minute.

Anger on the streets of Chicago, as hundreds who were protesting a police
shooting disrupt Black Friday shopping along the magnificent mile.

Overseas, two weeks after a series of terrorist attack in Paris and one
week after a gunman there stormed a hotel in Mali`s capital city. There is
a report this morning of a new attack in Mali.

And as Donald Trump continues to court controversy, Ted Cruz making a move
to the top of the polls, all that and more is just ahead for you this

We`re going to start first though in Colorado Springs where the motive in
the deadly shooting at a Planned Parenthood facility is still unclear.
Three people were killed in the armed siege leading to a five hour standoff
with police. The suspected gunman was captured alive and questioned
overnight. Authorities have identified him as Robert Lewis Deer of North
Carolina. Now, among the dead, 44-year-old Colorado Springs Police Officer
Garrett Swasey. He was a six year veteran of the University of Colorado
and Colorado Springs` Police Department.

This morning, a police procession led the bodies of the fallen officer and
the other two victims from the Planned Parenthood facility. Police are
telling the Associated Press that those inside the clinic hid furniture and
inside locked rooms. Those survivors are now beginning to speak out.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You could actually hear the gunshots going off at the
Planned Parenthood, you could hear them breaking down the doors.

know. I just don`t know what possessed someone to be that bad to other
people that he didn`t even know.


LUI: None other people including five police officers were shot in that
attack, all are hospitalized and in good condition.

Joining us now from Colorado Springs is NBC`s Leanne Gregg. Leanne, good
day to you and what`s the latest?

LEANNE GREGG, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Richard. This morning
police are continuing to investigate the crime scene and they`re trying to
learn more about the suspect, 57-year-old Robert Lewis Deer and what
motivated him to open fire on Black Friday on a busy strip mall. They say
he was carrying an AK-47 pipe assault weapon. The standoff lasted four to
five hours at the Planned Parenthood and during that time three people were
killed and nine others were injured.

Finally he was able to be talked out of continuing the standoff, he gave up
and he said, okay, you win. Because of previous threats, Planned
Parenthood already had security measures in place, including a safe room
with bullet-proof vests. Also the video surveillance allowed officers to
track a movement of the suspect as he roamed about inside the Planned
Parenthood area. These communities having extremely difficult time, they
will have a chance to mourn together at two different vigils.

Today, one this morning at a local church and one this evening at a nearby
university. And this is not something new to them. In fact within the
last month, there was another public shooting. A man was walking down the
main street and he opened fire and killed three people before he was killed
in a police shoot-out. Again, this investigation for this incident could
take several more days, it`s a complicated crime scene and a lot to
resolve, still looking for that motive -- Richard.

LUI: NBC`s Leann Gregg for us live. Thank you so much. Now, as police
continue to search for a motive in yesterday`s attack, Planned Parenthood
has faced relentless scrutiny in Congress and out on the campaign trail
this year as well. With a documented history of violence against the
organizations and its clinics as was mentioned.

NBC News White House correspondent Kristen Welker joins us with more on
this. Kristen, good morning.

to you. Look, while it`s not clear the gunman was specifically targeting
Planned Parenthood. His violent actions come as the healthcare provider
has been at the center of a fierce political firestorm in recent months as
you point out. And violent attacks over the years.


WELKER (voice-over): The deadly shooting at a Colorado Springs Planned
Parenthood comes against the backdrop of a heated political battle that`s
still brewing. This summer an activist group released videos which made it
seem as though Planned Parenthood was selling that fetal tissue for profit.
The organization`s President Cecile Richards says the tapes were heavily
edited and vehemently denied the claims when she was grilled on Capitol

leveled against Planned Parenthood based on heavily doctored videos are
offensive and categorically untrue.

WELKER: The controversy fueled Republicans` efforts to try to defund the
organization which provides reproductive health services, cancer screenings
and abortions. The attempt was unsuccessful but the issue has become
fodder on the campaign trail, Republicans lashing out.

Obama to watch these tapes.

videos are horrifying.

WELKER: And Democrats defending the organization. Hillary Clinton
tweeting Friday night, today and every day we stand with Planned
Parenthood. And while investigators are still trying to determine the
motive of the Colorado shooting, Planned Parenthood and other abortion
providing facilities have been the site of violent attacks in the past, in
2015, a Washington State clinic was set on fire. No one was injured.
2013, a man broke into a Planned Parenthood in Indiana and used an ax to
damage the facility. And in 2009, George Tiller a doctor who performed
late-term abortions was shot to death in his church. He wasn`t a Planned
Parenthood provider. A chilling history as investigators tried to unravel
this latest tragedy.


WELKER: Now so far there`s been no reaction from Republican presidential
candidates. Meanwhile, investigators have underscored they are looking
into the possibility the Colorado clinic was targeted -- Richard.

LUI: NBC`s Kristen Welker at the White House. Thank you so much, Kristen.

Let`s now move to Chicago where hundreds of protesters took to the streets
yesterday calling for police reforms there. They all but shutdown the
city`s busiest shopping district walking the entrances, the stores along
Michigan Avenues magnificent mile during Black Friday sales. It was the
fourth day of protests since authorities released video earlier this week
showing the fatal police shooting of 17-year-old Laquan McDonald. Charges
for that shooting that took place more than a year ago were not filed until
this week. The officer indicted for first-degree murder. The city
council`s Black Caucus is calling for the police chief`s resignation, but
he is standing firm.


that he has my back and if people peel away the onion on what`s happening
right now in the police world, you`re going to find a police department
that`s doing an exceptional job and quite frankly I am not going to quit on
the people of Chicago and I will not quit on these men and women.


LUI: Joining me now from Chicago, MSNBC`s Adam Reese who was at those
protests yesterday. And Adam, what were they like and what`s the latest in
the development of this case?

ADAM REESE, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Richard. The protest was
generally peaceful, hundreds of protesters walking up and down Michigan
Avenue, as you`ve said essentially shutting down Michigan Avenue, the major
shopping thoroughfare on Black Friday. At one point, in a very calculate
move, groups of protesters broke off and blocked major retail stores.
Nike, Saks Fifth Avenue, Neiman Marcus, Victoria Secret. A number of
retail stores essentially blocked, shoppers were unable to get in, shoppers
were very frustrated. The main goal of the protests was the resignation of
the mayor, the police superintendent and the state`s attorney.

Many shoppers told me, well, if that`s what they wanted, why didn`t they
protest outside their homes? So, a very frustrating day for shoppers, but
many people felt that the protests was a success. It lasted all day long
well into the evening as they essentially blocked off Michigan Avenue. Now
one other development Richard, WMAQ, the NBC affiliate here in Chicago is
reporting on the night of the shooting of Laquan McDonald, several
officers, minutes after the shooting went straight into the Burger King
that was right next to this shooting scene, stayed in there for a couple of
hours demanded to see the surveillance video, and when they left, there was
an 86-minute gap in that video -- Richard.

LUI: Adam, what`s next in the case?

REESE: Well, next in this case in terms of Laquan McDonald. There was the
settlement with the family, $5 million. These protesters say they might
come out again and again until they get what they want and that is the
resignation of the mayor, the police superintendent and the state`s
attorney. Many of them, they feel, this was a giant cover-up, not only on
to the part of the police department, but on the part of city hall itself
-- Richard.

LUI: Adam Reese in Chicago. Thank you so much for the very latest there.
I would like to turn back now to Colorado for just a moment. Police in
Colorado Springs have just released this mugshot of the alleged gunman in
yesterday`s deadly standoff at a Planned Parenthood facility. Authorities
have identified him as Robert Lewis Deer of North Carolina. There is the
picture there for you. Still no word on the motive behind that attack. We
want to underline that. We want to bring in this morning`s panel.

MSNBC political analyst Jonathan Alter. Washington Bureau Chief for the
Chicago Sun-Times, Lynne Sweet and anchor on TheBlaze, Amy Holmes. Thank
you all three. So, we have been going back and forth between Chicago and
Colorado Springs. Since we did had that report from Adam Reese on Chicago.
We have Lynn Sweet here. Lynn, this story goes a year and has many things
coming together in one place, we have the protests from Black Friday, we
have the Laquan McDonald case itself. You heard what might be next or
what`s being asked for next. And that`s Rahm Emanuel, the mayor there
being asked to step down by those who are critical of him.

LYNN SWEET, CHICAGO SUN-TIMES: Well, that`s not going to happen. The
focus is turning more on the Cook County State`s Attorney Anita Alvarez,
who took her time, to be nice about it. And no one has to be nice in such
a messed up situation. She`s up for re-election in the democratic primary
next March. She has opponents. So I think the focus will turn on the
change that can happen, that doesn`t depend on anyone`s resignation which
is, she could be thrown out of office with the primary.

So, I bet what happens next as we have seen in Chicago, voter registration
drives, their real beef as they usually are, protests that last, it`s a
pressure point to send protesters to the economic heart of the city, you
know, and that is a tactic. They might end up going to homes of people.
Rahm Emanuel is not going to quit. He was just re-elected in 2013, there
are some who think that not having this incendiary video surface before his
election made the difference, some of the protesters were against him are
the very same people who were the strongest opponents of his earlier in the

LUI: Right, right. And those demonstrators are saying, where was this
video, why do we have to demand this of this mayor?

AMY HOLMES, THEBLAZE.COM: Well, there`s speculation that it was
deliberately blocked by the mayor`s office so that Rahm Emanuel did not
have to face this going into re-election. I`m suppose there will be more
investigation as to, you know, what did he know, when did he know in terms
of the video and what it shows?

LUI: Jonathan.

think this will be, before it even gets to, you know, a possible cover-up
at the higher levels. There`s going to be a lot of attention on what
happened in that Burger King. Because it seems as if to the cover-up
started, and again, this is speculative right now, started right away, as
the other officers at the scene realized that something terrible had
happened. So, you could possibly see investigations of many of the other
officers who were there. And, you know, if there is this gap in the --

LUI: Reported 86 minutes.

ALTER: You know it could be sometimes that video doesn`t work, because
they put in very cheap video cameras at the restaurants. But that will be
heavily investigated.

SWEET: Also the Police Department account at the time of the shooting made
it look as if it was self-defense from the reports at the time from the
department, so the Burger King, by the way, Jonathan, is saying their
equipment worked perfectly because there was a gap, there was video before
and there was video after.

ALTER: All that will be heavily examined.

SWEET: Right. So, there`s a lot to go through here, there`s plenty of
reasons why people are angry.

LUI: And it underlines --

SWEET: And it does come after a lot of frustration with crime in Chicago -

LUI: That`s right. Exactly.

SWEET: -- where you have victims who had nothing to do with the ongoing
gang warfare.

LUI: Right.

SWEET: There was just the man charged. Yesterday --

ALTER: And the State Attorney Anita Alvarez has had a several examples of
things before where -- she was doing her job.

LUI: And that`s the important backdrop.


LUI: That`s the important backdrop.

HOLMES: I hate to sound cynical but I have to say I was very surprised
with the news that this was actually the first Chicago police officer who`s
been charged with murder while on duty ever in the history of Chicago. So,
to me it sort of raises questions. We know that there are sometimes bad
people in uniform. Lynn, maybe you can speak to that?

SWEET: Well, that one, there`s a difference between a murder charge and
other things going wrong. I think people recognized this --

HOLMES: You think because of videotape?

SWEET: No, I think we`re in an era of videotape now, which is making a lot
of difference in how you can charge these things. Also, even for Chicago,
16 bullets into a youth who is, I think a little bit past lunging length,
even with a knife is something. But the backdrop is we have a 9-year-old
who was just killed in a torrent of bullets. There was a teenager who died
blocks from President Obama`s house. You know, two years ago, caught in a
hail of bullets in a fight between gangs.

ALTER: And speaking of President Obama when he was in Illinois State
Senate, he was the one who is responsible for getting legislations through
for videotaping of police interrogations, not so much the cam on the car
that got this particular videotape but the whole era of videotaping and the
police force was very much part of something President Obama, when he was
in the state Senate was involved in.

LUI: Jonathan, Lynn, Amy, standby, we`ll going to wrap up that segment for
now. Of course we`ll continue this discussion in the next hour. Thank you
so much for that.

In just a few minutes right here, we`ll get you the latest on a potentially
crippling ice storm making its way across Oklahoma. And could wreck
certain havoc as one of the busiest travel weekends of the year is upon us
right now.

Next also, why keeping Syrian refugees out of the United States, maybe
playing into ISIS`s hands.


LUI: At least two United Nations peacekeepers are among those killed in an
attack on a U.N. based north of Mali. Here`s what we know right now about
that. Attackers firing rockets into the base early this morning, killing
the two peacekeepers and a civilian and injuring 20 others. That attack
comes as authorities arrest two men in connection with last week`s attack
on a luxury hotel in Mali`s capital city, where gunmen killed 20 people
including one U.S. citizen.

In Paris where security will tighten even further in the coming days as
President Obama and more than 140 other world leaders travel to the city
for a U.N. climate conference.

That`s where NBC`s Gabe Gutierrez is live for us in Paris and joins us with
more. Good morning, Gabe.

is ramping up ahead of that massive climate conference which is set to
start on Monday. The largest diplomatic event here in Paris since 1948.
Since the Paris attacks, about 120,000 troops and police officers have been
deployed throughout France, as part of these security measures, several
thousand of them have been deployed to the border as the beginning of
November before the attacks even happened. Several security forces or many
thousands of security forces were deployed to the border as they were
tighter immigration controls imposed.

Now here, in Paris over the next few days, police are urging people not to
use public transportation on Sunday and Monday, even though it`s free. But
many highways will be shut down, highways going from the north to the south
of Paris, as well as major boulevards throughout the city will be shut
down, so a very major event here. More than 140 heads of state including
President Obama are expected here. So Richard, as you can expect, security
will be very tight, even as this international manhunt continues for those
two suspected terrorists. Back to you, Richard.

Gabe, thank you so much. Gabe Gutierrez at Place de la Republique there in
Paris with the latest for us on that big conference that`s about to happen

Meanwhile, Ben Carson is spending this Thanksgiving weekend in Jordan
meeting with Syrian refugees. This unannounced trip is meant to bolster
Carson`s foreign-policy bona fides, a topic will discuss later this hour.
Carson coming under fire earlier this month when he compared the need to
screen refugees entering the U.S. to protecting kids from a rapid dog, fear
over Syrian refugees is widespread in the U.S. with more than half of
governors nationwide now saying they will not accept them in their states,
which could play right into the hands of ISIS, some are saying.

Zack Beauchamp, wrote this month. "ISIS despises Syrian refugees
if refugees do make it out, ISIS wants them to be treated badly. The more
the west treats them with suspicion and fear, the more it supports ISIS`
narrative of a west status hostile to Muslims bolstering ISIS` efforts to
recruit for migrant communities in Europe.

We`re joined by Ezra Klein, editor-in-chief of Vox and policy analyst for
MSNBC. And Ezra, you have written on this quite extensively, and you make
the case that ISIS can only succeed if the United States does overreact.
What do you consider an overreaction from what you have thought so far?

EZRA KLEIN, MSNBC POLICY ANALYST: So, there`s a lot of different kinds of
overreactions including a massive -- invade and put 50,000, 60,000 boots on
the ground in Syria and Iraq for a problem we can`t solve. But in a more
limited way, on the issue of the refugees, there are basically two things
to think about here. And this is coming from a lot of experts on ISIS, a
lot of people who study this issue day and in a day out. One, is it ISIS`
propaganda? Is it that the idea that they`re caliphate? Their Islamic
State, is the Middle East is a paradise? And if it were a paradise, you
would not probably see tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people
flee from it.

So, when with you watch these huge flows, these huge outflows of migrants
from that area, that is a direct hit to ISIS` propaganda of what it is.
That is part of why they hate these refugees so much. And then on the
other side as Zack wrote, you have this broad effort of ISIS` making all
the way going back to their industrial beginnings in Iraq, during the Iraq
war, to first spark backlash against populations of Muslims and then part
of Sunni Muslims to recruit among them. So they create the problem and
then they benefit from the problem. And the more the U.S. allows ISIS to
present this as a fight between east and west, between Muslim and non-
Muslim, the better it is for ISIS is propaganda and for its recruiting

LUI: Yes. As we`re talking about this. The more that United States lets
in Syrian refugees, does that hurt ISIS and how might that be?

KLEIN: Yes. And I think it is just certainly doesn`t help them. I think
it is good for the U.S. to do things that make clear this is not a clash of
civilizations that make clear that we are open and welcoming to refugees.
And it`s also, and I do want to just put this out, they`re just decent and
humanitarian things to do. Right now we have taken an incredibly paltry
number of refugees far fewer than say Canada. The idea that we`re being
flooded with Syrian refugees is genuinely ridiculous when you look at the
numbers. But these are people fleeing ISIS.

One of the things that I thought is deeply sad and unjust in the reaction
to what`s happened in Paris, is that being attacked by ISIS should have
anything make us more sympathetic to the people fleeing a catch from ISIS
which is, who these refugees are. In terms of security concerns, it is
much easier to get into this country posing as a European tourists than
going through the refugee process which is cumbersome and slow and has
checks. So, I think it`s not only as an effort hurt ISIS, but really this
is an effort to be decent country that welcomes people who are in desperate
need. We should be opening our borders to these people.

LUI: One of these points here Ezra is that as Syrian refugees do make
their way through Europe, that might be a stopping off point before they
come to the United States and those from the EU with EU passports would
have an easier entry point, what`s your thought on that?

KLEIN: To be honest, there are a tremendous number of ideas about how to
best manage refugee inflow and I`m not going to present myself here as an
expert on them. But again, I think it`s worth to sort of stepping back and
asking about this conversation, whether this would, if you were trying to
get into the U.S. to do something terrible, whether this would actually be
the process you would go through or you would just go through some kind of
normal visa overstay or you just try to sneak into the border another way.
This is a process where we`re actually looking for this problem, where we
have systems set up in order to manage this exact question. Where we are
on alert for exactly that kind of operation. There`s many other places you
can get into the U.S. from where we are not watching for this issue and so,
it`s actually a much easier place to penetrate.

LUI: Ezra, always good to see you. Thanks for getting UP with us this

KLEIN: Thank you.

LUI: Editor-in-chief Ezra Klein from Vox. I appreciate it.

Right now, we`re also tracking an ice storm at this hour on MSNBC, that it
could create a nightmare for millions of folks traveling home this
Thanksgiving weekend. We`ll get the latest on that.


LUI: Twenty million of you are traveling over this Thanksgiving weekend.
You`re facing a treacherous journey back home, I`m sorry to say. A
dangerous winter storm causing chaos on the roads and at the airports
across the central United States. Oklahoma City, one example there, waking
up to an ice storm warning this morning.

MSNBC meteorologist Bonnie Schneider joins us right now with more on that.
And what are some of the unfortunately hot spots you are watching, Bonnie?

BONNIE SCHNEIDER, MSNBC METEOROLOGIST: Well, unfortunately Richard, you`re
right. We have an ice storm in Oklahoma City and working its way into
Kansas. Ice is likely to accumulate a quarter an inch, even to a half an
inch in some areas. And yes, we already have thousands of power outages.
So look for more of that. Something else I`m watching very closely.
Dallas, Texas. Dallas has already seen its wettest year ever on record,
it`s wet as November and there is more rain coming down. If you`re driving
on I-30, you`re going to be encountering a lot of rain and actually north
of I-20, is where we`re expecting the risk for flooding, although there is
flooding across much of Texas.

Just want to give you the heads up with the highest rainfall rates will be.
Three to five inches widespread areas, we`re looking at the potential for
flooding with all this rain coming in. It`s a little rough Dallas into
Texarkana. Notice we have flood warnings as well. So, this as comes -- a
large area. For those of you that are traveling today, we`re looking at
much colder air, Denver is only up to 27 degrees, but still mild in the
east. So, Richard, a lot of this is actually moving eastward. We`re going
to cool down in the east in the next few days.

LUI: I`m always jealous of Florida. I got to tell you. Bonnie Schneider,
thank you so much. A lot of folks got to be careful on their way home.

All right. We have a live report from the Weather Channel Mike Seidel
who`s tracking the icy conditions live in Oklahoma
City. That`s coming up later in the show. We`ll go back to Colorado for
the latest on the deadly shooting on the Planned Parenthood location there.
We now have a picture of the suspect.

And as Ted Cruz is about to make his move and become the new GOP front-


LUI: Here`s what we know right now about the investigation into
yesterday`s deadly shooting at a Planned Parenthood facility in a Colorado
Springs. Police have just released this mugshot of the suspected gunman
Robert L. Deer who was taken into custody after a five-hour standoff with
police. Three people were killed in this attack including one police
officer. The alleged gunman is in custody. Nine people including five
police officers were wounded. All nine are hospitalized and in good

All right. Now turning to politics as we`ve mentioned earlier this hour.
Ben Carson is expected to head back late tonight from Jordan where he
visited with Syrian refugees. It appears to be part of an effort here to
bolster his foreign policy credentials. According to the "New York Times,"
even some of the retired neurosurgeon`s own advisors say he`s struggling to
grasp foreign policy. Those struggles may help explain Caron`s sudden
decline this in Iowa. And why Ted Cruz now appears to be on the rise
there. A recent Quinnipiac poll shows Cruz near the top with Donald Trump
with a significant decline in the numbers there for Carson who`s now third,
who led that poll by the way just last month by 10 percentage points.

Texas Senator Cruz is popular with evangelicals who could decide who wins
in Iowa. And he`s far better versed in foreign policy, even serving on the
Senate Armed Services Committee. So, is this the moment Ted Cruz makes his
move and becomes the new republican front-runner.

Let`s turn to our panel who joins us has been here all morning so far.
Jonathan Alter, as well as Lynn Sweet, Amy Holmes.

All right. Ben Carson struggling because foreign policy and being able to
show that he understands the very complex issue, specifically right now
with refugees, is this a way back for him right now by taking that trip?

HOLMES: Well, good for him for going. I think that is a good move but I`m
not so sure that this is like grasping the complexities of foreign policy
is the problem for him among GOP primary voters. After the Paris attacks,
it has a lot more to do with strength in which GOP contender looks like he
would take on ISIS, he or she, would take on ISIS the Islamic State,
represent American interests in a way that GOP voters believed what
projects strength. And Ben Carson as we know is a soft spoken guy and he
actually has some, you know, saber rattling things but perhaps there isn`t
as much confidence that he could be a commander-in-chief in a time of
international Jihadist crisis.

LUI: This after some stumbles as some had been noting.

SWEET: Yes. And voters in Iowa have a choice. Voters in Iowa, as we
noted a strong evangelical component while there`s a choice. Ben Carson
strength is the evangelical community. He came up giving speeches to
groups tied to homeschool movement and evangelical church movements. But
guess what, no guess, he has -- voters have a lot of alternatives in that
sector including ones with experience but more important and I think this
is now coming to be the point of maybe no return, you can only go so long
in saying, I`ll get advisors, and this is true for everyone. You do have
to show some mastery of the topic. I can`t imagine that he would go into
an operating room with someone who said, look, well, let`s just make an
incision and we`ll figure it out when we get there.

HOLMES: The problem is, to the theory is that, you know, the front-runner
Donald Trump is not a man of great subtlety or discernment shall we say
when it comes to these issues, but he is saying very tough things that GOP
voters apparently like to hear.

LUI: Donald Trump by the way down in the polls there when we talk about

ALTER: Well, I think the most striking thing in this Quinnipiac poll is
that that Donald Trump and Ted Cruz are in a statistical dead heat. And if
Ben Carson doesn`t win Iowa, he`s done. We could I think easily see --

LUI: He`s done if he doesn`t win Iowa.

ALTER: Yes. Because it`s an evangelical state, and his whole notion of
winning this nomination is based on winning. Ted Cruz has the best
organization and Iowa is an organization state, you have go for a couple of
hours to these caucuses. And so I think Trump is not going to do as well
in Iowa as some people are expecting now based on the polls, it also hurts
Trump that he`s clearly not an evangelical Christian, as Ted Cruz is. So,
Ted Cruz now I think is beginning to emerge in this race, we`re going to be
hearing an awful lot about him next year.

LUI: What about Marco Rubio resonating in this discussion?

ALTER: But he`s also a strong, you know, a strong candidate because he has
a lot of establishment backing --

LUI: Right.

ALTER: -- which Cruz does not. The establishment is very, very -- remember
he called Mitch McConnell who is the leader in the Senate, a liar. This is
a guy who is deeply disliked in Washington not just in the Democratic Party
but in the Republican Party.

HOLMES: And remember that Ted Cruz launched his campaign at Liberty
University. And I was there to cover it for to TheBlaze. And this was an
audience that they liked him, they were respectful but that he showed this
comfort level in being an evangelical environment, speaking to these young
people, that Cruz has done that as well. Donald Trump but not so much.

SWEET: Which is the point, politics as you all know is addition, and Cruz-
Rubio have sectors to go for addition. Dr. Carson in particular just
doesn`t have various pathways, as Jonathan said, New Hampshire is not an
evangelical voter state, that could be a much bigger problem for him than
anyone else running.

LUI: And we`ll talk more about this in the next hour. Thank you our
panel. Still ahead, coming up, why Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg may be a
trailblazer in the fight for gender equality and paternity leave.

And next, the controversial former U.S. president that`s playing out at one
of this country`s most prestigious colleges.


LUI: As protesters march on the streets of Chicago to demonstrate against
the shooting death of an African-American teenager. And more low profile
demonstration against America`s legacy of racism that`s also receiving
national attention. These are Princeton students here taking part in a sit
in earlier this month at the university president`s office. Demanding that
the school removed the name of a former school president -- former American
President Woodrow Wilson from programs and buildings that bear his name
over what they say is his legacy of racism. As president, Woodrow Wilson
advocated giving women the right to vote. Something that happened (audio
gap) he also push for anti-thrust legislation and labor rights. But one
area in which President Wilson was clearly regressive was civil rights.

By the early of 20th century, an entire class of African-Americans had
worked their way from slavery into the middle class with the help of
government jobs and (INAUDIBLE). But during his term, Wilson allowed his
cabinet members to segregate government offices. The "New York Times"
editorial board writing on Wednesday, quote, "Wilson was an unapologetic
racist whose administration rolled back the gains that African-Americans
achieved just after the Civil War, purged black workers from influential
jobs and transform the government into an instrument of white supremacy,"
end quote.

And what about Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison and
Andrew Jackson, four of the eight American presidents who owned slaves in
this discussion?

Joining us now to discuss is political historian Allan Lichtman who teaches
at American University in Washington. A lot of stuff there. And thanks
for joining us.


LUI: There are those here as you know who say Woodrow Wilson was simply a
product of his time and that now we are applying today`s values to what was
the product of, or shall I say values of his time.

LICHTMAN: You know, I don`t buy this product of the times argument, there
is something to it. But there were many, many people in Woodrow Wilson`s
times who are challenging segregation, challenging racism, trying to move
the nation forward in its race relations. Woodrow Wilson did a lot for
Princeton University. He even challenged the old boy power structure
there, he reformed the curriculum, he advanced some opportunities for
Catholics and Jews, although not African-Americans. As you indicate, he
was a transformational president who really moved the Democratic Party
into its present day status of being a progressive party, but you can`t shy
away from the racism, but you`ve got to balance, which is why I think the
protests that are going on today present a tremendous opportunity for a
nationwide discussion about America`s history of racism and discrimination,
it`s ongoing presence, and what we can do about it, if we don`t understand
our past, we`re not going to understand what`s happening today.

LUI: Allan, so why now, and should Woodrow Wilson`s name be removed as the
protesters are asking for? What`s your thought?

LICHTMAN: I think why today is fairly obvious, because all of the well-
publicized incidents of alleged unnecessary police violence and mayhem
against African-Americans. With all the incidents of African-Americans
remarkably feeling quite uncomfortable on American campuses, our heritage
has now come up, you can`t separate the past and the present, I am not
going to tell Princeton University what to do.

LUI: Uh-hm.

LICHTMAN: But I say, they have got to have an open and frank discussion
that weighs all sides of it. You know, it`s not only former American
presidents who associated with racism. Leland Stanford, the founder of
Stanford University was a horrible racist. Led the movement to exclude
Chinese from the United States. Alfred Nobel, the founder of the Nobel
Prize, were not only known for inventing dynamite, he was an arms
manufacturer, a merchant of death, whose instruments killed millions of
people. So, I think there`s a lot of room for discussions here.

LUI: Lots of room for discussion. Examples that you bring up. We have a
Princeton grad, somebody who would like to join the conversation here.
Amy, clearly, you know, Princeton students saying, hey, we don`t agree with
this, or a group of Princeton students saying, hey, we don`t agree with
Woodrow Wilson.

HOLMES: Certainly they`re a group who had a sit in at the President`s
office, to voice their grievances with Woodrow Wilson and Princeton more
generally. But there`s actually been an even larger counter protest to
those students led by Princeton undergraduates who sent an open letter to
the President of Princeton, saying, we didn`t like these students tactics,
we don`t necessarily agree with their goals but we should have an open
conversation. That letter now has well over 1,000 signatures on it and
something in it that was really, how shall I say, sort of poignant for me
as an African-American Princeton grad, that the students said that the
protesters were making other African-American students on campus feel
uncomfortable. That this was now becoming a test of blackness and racial
solidarity when it shouldn`t be.

One of the protesters sitting in the President`s office, actually said to
the President, this university owes me nothing. I or rather -- I owe this
university nothing, actually she owes that university her acceptance
letter, the privilege of being a Princeton graduate, which she may not know
yet. But when that`s on your resume, it`s an enormous advantage even over
a lot of those white male privilege graduates from other universities.

LUI: Presidential historian Allan Lichtman. We`ll have to leave it there.
Thank you for joining us and giving us your perspective on this morning.

We`ve got a heads up for you this morning too. If you`re one of the
millions of Americans traveling, well, a major ice storm is barreling down
on Oklahoma and other parts of the Midwest. It`s threatening to force a
lot of flight cancellations and delays. We`ll go live to Oklahoma City on


LUI: This Thanksgiving, Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg posted a family photo
of his parents, his sister and his pregnant wife Priscilla Chan. Part of
his post reading, quote, "I`m looking forward to many more moments of
family to come." Well, that should not be a problem for Zuckerberg, at
least when his baby girl arise. Why? Well, he announced last week he is
taking two months of paternity leave once the baby is born. In fact, U.S.
employees at Facebook are eligible now for up to four mounts of paid
paternity leave now.

But that kind of option does not exist for most Americans outside of
Silicon Valley or certainly companies in general. According to the
Department of Labor, seven in 10 fathers in the United States who take
parental leave take ten days or less. And according to data from the White
House Council of Economic advisors, 29 percent of men do not even have
access to parental leave for the birth of a child.

Joining me now to discuss is Scott Behson, author of "The Working Dad`s
Survival Guide." Very interesting here, Scott, because Mark Zuckerberg
taking a stand here and saying, we need to level to the playing field here,
because the fathers in mixed gender relationships are not able to take the
amount of paternity leave that women are.

first off, his announcement really didn`t make a big proclamation about
that. He said this is a personal decision, this is what`s right for my
family. And research shows taking extended leave for both men and women is
good for families. It`s good for kids, it`s good for dads and moms. I
think he left out that it`s also good for business. And there`s a reason
that businesses like Facebook offer extended --

LUI: How is it good for business?

BEHSON: Well, because you can attract and retain really good talent when
you offer policies like this.

LUI: Uh-hm.

BEHSON: You can also, research shows that when employees are accommodated
in the times in their lives when they really need a little extra help, they
are more willing and more able to kind of lean into work when work needs
them. So, there`s real downstream in the facts as well. And finally,
there`s even a stock price bombed when companies offer parental leave

LUI: Well, my friend I could not help but here you used the words lean in.


LUI: So, when we talk about lean in and of course was famously talked
about, also in the valley, Mr. Myer (ph) one example who did take some time
off, less than one month though. And the reason I`m moving towards that
is, does this now sort of release some of the pressure for women`s always
to be the once that are taking care of the newborn.

BEHSON: Right. Well, absolutely, what happens is when dads are prevented
from being fully involved parents by not having, for example, extended
parental leave. Then by default in the family, everything falls to the
mother, right? And then that hurts them in their careers if their working
women. And also set up an unbalanced family dynamic where the mom is the
expert parent and the dad is just the semi confident helper which is really
not the dynamic we want in U.S. families who want, you know, good parents.
You know, both moms and dads working together on the same team right from
the very beginning.

LUI: So, Silicon Valley not known for being progressive small pee when it
comes to this gender equality issue. Will we see other Silicon Valley
companies follow because as you probably very well know, only 10 percent of
executives in Silicon Valley are women?

BEHSON: Yes. Well, Silicon Valley has an interesting mix. Right?
There`s a culture of overwork, of working extremely long hours in Silicon
Valley, but they`re very progressive when it comes to policies like
parental leave and pay time off. So, I think Silicon Valley is working out
what the mix is, in terms of becoming a more family supportive work
environment which would help in particularly working women. So, maybe this
is step one or two in a, you know, longer term process.

LUI: All right. Give me the next step.

BEHSON: Well, the next step would be working on this chronic overwork
culture, because it`s difficult for people to consistently put in 65, 70
hours a week while being highly involved parents. And again, when you have
family imbalanced, when the work of the family false to working moms,
they`re unable to take that assignment that gives them 60 or 70 hours a
week which prevents them maybe from certain career tracks which, you know,
hurts them in reaching executive ranks. So, I think working on this
overworked culture is really the next step.

And plus, you know, the fact is most of us don`t have more than six or
seven good hours of work in us in a given day. So, even the Science behind
chronicle overworked --

LUI: You know me well, Scott. You know me well.


Yes. Scott knows me well. I don`t work more than two hours basically and
I am done. I also have a doughnut. Scott Behson, thank you so much. Very
important topic. It`s good to see at least some progress there, at
Facebook specifically. Again, author of "The Working Dad`s Survival

Our panel sticking around for the next hour, another full hour by the way,
of news and politics that`s just ahead. Stick around.


LUI: Three killed and nine injured in an attack on a Colorado women`s
health clinic.


LUI: Good morning. I`m Richard Lui. Thanks for joining us another hour.

We`ll have another update in just a moment from Colorado Springs, where
multiple people were shot yesterday at a Planned Parenthood, a police
officer and two others were killed. Police releasing a mug shot of the
suspect just a little while ago.

Also ahead, in Europe, a sixth person has been charged in Belgium in
connection to the Paris attacks. It`s been two weeks since the massacre
that took 130 lives.

Meanwhile, amid reports that Black Friday may have been a bust, mom and pop
stores are trying to get shoppers to hit the streets and think small to
fill their gift list. It`s Small Business Saturday.

Plus, the challenge of challenging Donald Trump.

All that and much more is ahead this hour on UP.

But we`re going to start right now in Colorado Springs, where police have
released this mug shot of suspected gunman Robert L. Dear. He was taken
into custody after a five-hour standout with police. At this hour, a
motive is still unknown but here is what we know right now about that
shooting: three people were killed in the attack, including a police
officer, nine people, including five police officers were also wounded, all
nine are hospitalized and in good condition.

Joining us now live from Colorado Springs is NBC`s Leanne Gregg.

And people are asking the question of why? And those answers are not clear

GREGG: Absolutely. In fact, it could take several days just to process
the crime spree, they`re trying to piece together what caused the gunman to
open fire inside that Planned Parenthood, he apparently had an AKk-47 type
weapon. Before the five-hour standoff was over, three people were dead,
nine people were injured.

Here`s what one of the survivors had to say.


KENTANYA CRAION, SHOOTING SURVIVOR: I noticed people until front were
going down, and they were saying everyone get down, everyone get down and I
heard gunshots, I saw the gunman, and we grabbed the table, we placed it
against the door, we sat there for at least up the to fife hours.


GREGG: Among the dead, 44-year-old police veteran Garrett Swasey, along
with two civilians. Earlier this morning, the bodies of the dead were
removed from the crime scene. During that time, police lined the streets
and saluted as the vehicles passed by.

Because of previous threats at Planned Parenthood, there were extra
security measures already in place. There was a safe room, some of the
people went inside and locked themselves in and that possibly saved some
lives according to officials. Also surveillance video at the facility
allowed police to track the gunman as he passed by. Two separate vigils
will be held later today to honor the victims, one at the church where the
police officer was killed was a volunteer pastor -- Richard.

LUI: NBC`s Leanne Gregg, thank you so much.

We now go to NBC News White House correspondent Kristen Welker, she joins

Kristen, I understand we just heard from the president on this.

WELKER: Just moments ago, the president released a statement, Richard.
I`m going to read you the entire statement.

It says, quote, "The last thing Americans should have to do over the
holidays is comfort the families of people killed by gun violence. People
who woke up in the morning and bid their loved ones goodbye with no idea it
would be the last time. And yet two days after Thanksgiving, that`s what
we are forced to do again. We don`t yet know what this particular gunman`s
so-called motive was shooting for shooting 12 people or for terrorizing an
entire community when he opened fire with an assault weapon and took
hostages at a Planned Parenthood center in Colorado.

What we do know is that the he killed a cop in the line of duty, along with
two of the citizens that police officer was trying to protect. We know
that law enforcement saved lives as so many of them do every day all across
American, and we know that more Americans and their families had fear
forced upon them.

This is not normal. We can`t let it become normal. If we truly scare
about this, if we`re going to offer up our thoughts and prayers again for
God knows how many times, with a truly clean conscience, then we have to do
something about the easy accessibility of weapons of war on our streets to
people who have no business wielding them, period. Enough is enough.

May God bless Officer Garrett Swasey and the Americans he tried to save and
may he grant the rest of us the courage to do the same thing."

So, again, President Obama extending his condolences while calling for
action to prevent this type of thing from happening in the future.
Richard, to take a broader look at this, to say that the gunman was
specifically targeting Planned Parenthood, his violent actions come as the
health care provider has been at the center of a fierce political firestorm
in recent months and violent attacks over the years.

LUI: NBC`s Kristen Welker at the White House, with the very latest and
also the statement from the president. Thank you so much for that.

I want to get back to our panel. If you`re just joining us -- we have with
us Jonathan Alter, MSNBC political analyst. We also have Lynn Sweet from
the "Chicago Sun-times," we also have Amy Holmes, anchor on "The Blaze".

Now one of the things that Kristen Welker said in her report, she called it
this type of thing. We don`t know why this suspect did what he did, this
horrific thing. What is this type of thing that we`re looking at?

SWEET: Well, my guess is that one of the things Kristen talked about is
using an assault weapon, which is what Obama talked about, we have to do
something about the easy accessibilities of weapons of wars on our streets.
So, that`s one thing, I`m approximate guessing that that is on the table
now. Once again, how this man got the weapon, the trail that led to that
weapon is as important an issue as anything right now.

ALTER: What`s interesting to me about the president`s statement, two
things -- he singled out Garrett Swasey, the officer who died, sending a
message that, you know, with all of the incidents that we have in Chicago
of police officers killing people, that every day somewhere in this
country, a police officer gives his life in the line of duty and it`s
important the keep that in mind, and the president wants everybody to
understand that.

The other thing that was very striking is that in the past, until the last
couple of years, when there would be an incident of this kind, neither the
president or other politicians would go to the gun issue, they would wait
until the dust settled, until the funerals, they didn`t want to be accused
of politicizing it. This president in his fourth quarter doesn`t care
about what the NRA and other critics might say, he goes directly within
hours to the gun issue, and to make it clear that this should not be normal
in our country, even though in many ways it has become something that`s
very, very common.

So, he wants to kind of jolt us out of our complacency about these things,
and not have a say, oh, this just happens in America, another shooting,
another day, another AK-47. He`s saying, wait a minute, it doesn`t have to
be that way, let`s reopen the debate on why we have such ready access.

LUI: Without all the details available to us yet.

ALTER: Right.

HOLMES: Which I think is unfortunate and President Obama has said that he
does intend to politicize these events because he has a political agenda
when it comes to gun control. In his statement, he says that we need to do
something about keeping guns out of people who have, quote, "no business
wielding them."

Well, we know in this case that obviously he didn`t. But we only know that
after the fact. That`s why it`s important to gather more facts. What do
we know about this suspect? Were there red flags? Did he get the guns
illegally? Did he get it through a legal process? Does he have mental
health issues? Are there members of his family or in his community that
knew that he was a danger?

This actually reminds me of a shooting of two police officers here in New
York City a year ago, police officers sitting in their police car, Saturday
afternoon 3:00 in the morning -- 3:00 in the afternoon, rather, and the
suspect walking up and shooting them point blank, he said in retaliation
for Eric Garner and Michael Brown.

There are people who watch the news who become fixated, who are deranged,
who take this on as their political agenda, even though they`re psychotic.
And I think we need to look at that, as well as where do they get the guns.

SWEET: But let`s not complicate it. I think these discussions always go

HOLMES: It is complicate.

ALTER: No, it`s not complicated. There`s too many guns. It`s that

SWEET: No, no, hold on. Let`s take one bite sized chunk at a time. If
you want to get something done, let`s break it down. Getting assault
weapons off the street is easier than figuring out mental health situations
for everyone.


HOLMES: There`s a number of school shootings just in the past few months
that have been foiled by surveillance and police officers getting involved
with those students, see what a threat to this online --

SWEET: That`s different. That`s not what we`re talking about. See, this
is why it`s so hard, even here on the table. And I just -- I think
Jonathan`s with me. We wanted to talk about one little part of a big
problem, assault weapons.

LUI: We have to leave it there, we can`t obviously finish this discussion
on this show today, but we will of course top the next half hour on this
very story and we can return to it then. Thanks to our panel as always on

We`re now going to get you to the very latest, many of you thinking about
how to get home tomorrow from wherever you`re at. There`s a lot of nasty
weather across the country, a dangerous wintry mix, causing chaos on the
road this morning, and the timing could not be worse.

The Weather Channel`s Mike Seidel joins us from Oklahoma City where it is
icy and cold.

MIKE SEIDEL, THE WEATHER CHANNEL: It is indeed, Richard. Good morning.

Freezing rain continues to shellac the roadways, the trees, the power
lines. Here in the Oklahoma City area, more than 46,000 customers are
without power on this cold morning, with ice storm warnings continuing
until noon.


SEIDEL (voice-over): Treacherous roads lie ahead for many drivers getting
behind the wheel on this busy travel weekend, especially in the middle of
the country. Four people were killed, driving along slippery roads in
Kansas. While icy conditions were to blame for several wrecks along
Oklahoma highways Friday.

And in Dallas, historic downpours, 2015 is now the wettest year on record,
with over 57 inches and counting. Friday alone, they picked up another 3
1/2 inches of rain. The rushing water swallowing up cars, killing at least
three, and stranding this sheriff`s deputy, who firefighters had to rescue.

Friday was also a day of records for other parts of the country. It
dropped to 22 below zero in Big Piney, Wyoming. Lander, Wyoming, picked up
about 10 inches of snow and close to two inches of rain fell in parts of
Missouri. After the most hospitable day of the year, the extreme weather
continues to overstay its welcome.


SEIDEL: Here in Oklahoma and across parts of the planes and West Texas,
look at this, you`re going to need an ice pick, this is not going to work,
there`s just too much ice on these cars, these wind shields. The wind
shield wiper is locked in. Turn on the defrost and come back in about 15
minutes or get an ice pick.

Meanwhile, in a warmer area, in Dallas, more rain in the way. There are 30
million Americans under some kind of flood alert today. Dallas now has
their wettest November on record, their wettest year on record after a very
wet May and a record wet October. So, it`s been crazy down there, Richard,
as we continue to watch the temperature here.

It`s right at freezing. We need it to creep up another degree to start the
melting process, but by and large here in Oklahoma City, most of the roads
and sidewalks are ice free.

LUI: Mike Seidel, there`s a lot of things you do well. You are not very
good at using an ice scraper as I just witnessed, I believe.

SEIDEL: Oh, God. Wow!

LUI: I`m joking. I`m joking, Mike. Come on.

SEIDEL: Brutal.

LUI: It is cold is what you`re saying. Thank you so much, Mike Seidel
from the Weather Channel, as always. Thank you.

We`re following a developing story this hour coming from Mali. There`s
been another deadly attack, this time on a U.N. base in the northern part
of the country. That`s next.


LUI: At least two United Nations peacekeepers are among those killed in an
attack on a U.N. base north of Mali. Here`s what we know right now.
Attackers firing rockets into the base early this morning, killing two
peacekeepers and one civilian and injuring 20 others. The attack comes as
authorities arrest two men in connection with last week`s attack on a
luxury hotel in Mali`s capital city, where gunmen killed 20 people,
including one American.

Meanwhile Brussels, it remains on high alert as the search continues for at
least two more suspects believed to be connected to the attacks in Paris.

NBC`s Claudio Lavanga is live in Brussels.

And that is new for us today, Claudio.

CLAUDIO LAVANGA, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Richard, if it wasn`t for
the soldiers still patrolling the streets of the city center, down here you
would think, or it would lack like that Brussels has gone back to some sort
of normal life.

Now, residents are out there on a Saturday enjoying a rare and beautiful
sunny day, and you can see probably behind me, there are some of the shops
and huts and they are some 200 shops that make up the open air Christmas
market in Brussels, which opened as scheduled yesterday despite security
concerns. Because while the authority and the government lowered the
threat terror alert on Thursday from the highest to level number three,
meaning that an attack is no longer serious and imminent, but still
probable, and possible, yesterday, the U.S. embassy has issued yet another
statement warning, urging U.S. citizens who are here in the capital of
Brussels to avoid public gatherings just like that.

So, there`s a lot of conditions here, Richard. While, of course, one side,
the government is saying it`s not as risky as it used to be a week ago.
And on the other side, they say, well, still avoid public places, then they
open a large Christmas market that would attract thousands of people from
here until the end of the year -- Richard.

LUI: Claudio Lavanga in Brussels, they`re on the mood and as they try to
get back to what was before a holiday season and certainly not everybody
agreeing with what`s happening right now. Claudio, thank you so much, live
in Brussels, Belgium, for us.

Still ahead, we`ll hear from one of the survivors of yesterday`s deadly
attack at a Planned Parenthood in Colorado.

And next, why you may see even more holiday shoppers than you did


LUI: There are 27 shopping days left until Christmas, and while millions
of Americans hit the malls on Black Friday, hoping to take advantage of
deep discounts, retailers did not experience the same big business as in
past years. That begs the question, is Black Friday past its prime?

NBC`s Olivia Sterns is here to the answer that question.

Folks are not going, I guess.

OLIVIA STERNS, NBC NEWS: Good morning, Richard.

I think that we can say that the Black Friday frenzy is perhaps fading, it
is still slated to actually be the busiest shopping day of the year, with
nearly one in three Americans said to be expected to have gone shopping
yesterday. But still, it does seem that the crowds are actually thinning
and that is because we were spending our money earlier in different ways.


STERNS (voice-over): Long lines, the mad rush. Deep discounts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the characters were buy one get one, 80 percent

STERNS: All the markers of a great Black Friday.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some TVs and some toys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re going to shop until we fall.

STERNS: So why are experts saying this Black Friday has been a bit of a

KATHY ALLEN: Some of those factors that go into shopping on Black Friday
have to do with what the weather is that day, and even what the deals are
online or even in the store.

STERNS: Well, Black Friday has turned into black November, Americans are
shopping earlier.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taking the punch out of Friday`s numbers.

JILL GONZALEZ, WALLET HUB ANALYST: So many of these deals have been open
to the public since the beginning of November.

STERNS: Mother Nature also didn`t help. Just look at the weather map.
Gorgeous on both coasts with ice storms and snow in the Midwest, all plenty
of reason to keep shoppers away from the mall.

But while Americans aren`t shopping as much in the stores, they`re shopping
more at home.

MICKEY MERICLE: They`re using their desktops and they`re using their
mobile devices to take advantage of the offers.

STERNS: In fact, online holiday purchasers are up 14 percent this year,
with more than half those purchases made on a smartphone or table -- silver
lining on a Black Friday that may have many retailers seeing red.


STERNS: You know, Richard, there is really little reason these days to
brave the crowds at this point if you can find everything online and you
can get free shipping too, why would you wait.

Attention now turns to Cyber Monday. It`s also expected to be a record
breaker with $3 billion in online sales. And if you do have kids at home,
this is actually the day to shop, according to Adobe, Cyber Monday is when
you`ll get the deepest discounts on toys. If you want the hot ticket
items, I`m thinking drones, "Star Wars," you got to be careful to buy them
before they run out -- Richard.

LUI: It`s like Cyber Monday, Sunday, Saturday, Friday, I think that`s
where we`re going.

Olivia Sterns, thank you so much with that.

Also, you know, by 2010, local retailers, since we`re talking about retail,
have tried to balance the excesses of Black Friday, big discounts, but
often with big crowds to match, by encouraging shoppers to head out to mom
and pop stores in their neighborhoods on Small Business Saturday, instead.
Have you heard of that?

Well, in the world in which many now tried to eat local, the hope is that
for the holiday season, people will shop local as well.

Now, that message appears to be resonating.

Just to give you an example here, last year, 88 million consumers shopped
small on Small Business Saturday. That was up nearly 15 percent from the
year before.

Joining us right now, somebody who knows a little bit about that, JJ
Ramberg in Los Angeles, host of "YOUR BUSINESS" business on MSNBC.

So, we were talking about the cyber versus or the bricks versus clicks,
right, but there also this issue of large versus small. And so, on this
what is called Small Business Saturday, what are some of the hopes here,

JJ RAMBERG, HOST, YOUR BUSINESS: Well, there`s with been Black Friday and
Cyber Monday and all this hoopla for many, many years and small businesses
were getting lost in this. So, six years ago, Small Business Saturday was
launched and the idea was to just bring some attention to the small
companies, right, those main street businesses, small retailers online,
cafes, restaurants and just to tell people, hey, don`t forget to support
your local businesses. If you don`t support them, they`re going to go

LUI: Yes. And when we talk about small businesses, this is the
interesting part, right, isn`t it, JJ, is that we`re not really talking
about bricks versus clicks, because many of these small local businesses
are now doing what these big box businesses are doing and they`re now
getting more sales.

RAMBERG: Exactly. So, you shouldn`t just think of the toy store on main
street, you can think of small stationary store that might be online,
exactly. They`re small as well.

LUI: Let`s talk about this. The importance -- and you know, this is
something you talk about a lot. Money spent locally, the majority of it
stays local. So, it helps your own community?

RAMBERG: There are a lot of studies about this, but some of them show that
at least three times as much money per dollar stays locally if you shop at
a small retailer or a cafe or something small versus a big chain store.
And so, just think about your community and what that means for your
community and how that -- you know, there`s a ripple effect to the whole
town that you live in.

LUI: Well, my doughnut store knows I`m a supporter of local businesses,
that`s for sure.

JJ Ramberg, thanks for being with us on this Saturday morning.

RAMBERG: Hopefully your gym does too, Richard.

LUI: Actually, they do, as well sometimes. Not as much, though.

JJ, thank you.

And, of course, don`t miss "YOUR BUSINESS" hosted by JJ. Sundays 7:30 a.m.
Eastern, right here on MSNBC.

From small business Saturday to Giving Tuesday. On December 1st, MSNBC is
celebrating a global day dedicated to giving back.

Simple idea here as you might know -- just find a way for your family, your
community, your company or your organization to come together to give
something more. Join us by writing down what you are giving on a piece of
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Twitter or Instagram, with a #givingtuesday.

Ahead, a look at a new movie hitting the theater this is holiday season.

And we`ll examine how the media is struggling to cover Donald Trump.


LUI: And now back to one of our top stories we`ve been following for you
here on MSNBC.

What we know right now about that deadly shooting at a Planned Parenthood
in Colorado Springs, President Obama speaking out against the attack in a
statement just released, also tackles the bigger issue of gun reform.

The president statement reading in part here, quote, "This is not normal.
We can`t let it become normal. If we truly care about this, then we have
to do something about the easy accessibility of weapons of war on our
streets to people who have no business wielding them, period. Enough is

NBC`s Miguel Almaguer now has the latest from Colorado Springs for us.


DISPATCH: Attention all units, attention all units CSP is working on
active shooter.

MIGUEL ALMAGUER, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When police arrived
at Planned Parenthood in Colorado Springs, they were met by a hail of

OFFICER: We`re pinned down. We`re getting active gunfire.

ALMAGUER: The shooter, who law enforcement sources say was armed with an
AK-47 style rifle unleashed round after round of gun fire into a busy
shopping area on Black Friday, wounding nine, killing three.

OFFICER: 241, I`ve been shot.

ALMAGUER: Police took the brunt of the gun a fire, five officers
hospitalized, 44-year-old Garrett Swasey and two civilians among the dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All I can say is my heart`s broken, this is a really,
really tough situation for a lot of people in our community and to the
community at large.

ALMAGUER: The standoff lasted five hours, hundreds in surrounding
businesses ordered to take cover. Police evacuating to the masses between
sporadic rapid volleys of gunfire.

Ozy Licano in his car caught in the crossfire.

OZY LICANO: I could see him aiming, and I was trying to move, it was
horrible, and I saw myself in the mirror, and I thought, my God, he was
aiming for my head.

ALMAGUER: With perimeter set up, SWAT teams moved in. The gunman hunkered
down inside Planned Parenthood with an unknown number of people also in the
building, one patient took cover with others in a back room.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You could actually hear the gunshots going off in
Planned Parenthood. You can hear them breaking down the doors.

ALMAGUER: With the sun setting, the gunman finally surrendered as police
hauled him away for questioning, the buildings was swept for explosives.
The siege finally over, but not before three would lose their lives in a
violent and terrifying standoff.


LUI: That was NBC`s Miguel Almaguer reporting for us from Colorado

We`re going to turn now back to politics. Donald Trump not taking the
weekend off from controversy. The Republican presidential front-runner is
now under fire for seeming to mock a reporter`s disability. Take a listen.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A nice reporter, now the poor
guy, you got to see this guy, I don`t know what I said, I don`t remember.
He`s going like, I don`t remember. Maybe that`s what I said.


LUI: The reporter is Serge Kovaleski who now writes for "The New York
Times". Kovaleski suffers from a congenital joint condition that limits
the functionality of his joints. Trump has since denied mocking Kovaleski,
releasing a statement saying in part that he has no idea who the reporter
is or what he looks like, even though the reporter has profiled him in the
past. Now, the incident occurred as Trump was defending his discredited
claim that he had witnessed thousands of Muslims cheering in New Jersey
during the September 11th attacks.

When confronted about that claim, here`s how Trump responded in an
interview with ABC`s George Stephanopoulos.


that didn`t happen at all. Those rumors have been on the Internet for
sometime. So, did you misspeak yesterday?

TRUMP: It did happen. I saw it. It was on television. I saw it.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You saw that with your own eyes?

TRUMP: George, it did happen. There were people who cheering on the other
side of New Jersey where you have large Arab populations, they were
cheering as the World Trade Center came down. I know it might not be
politically correct for you to talk about it, but there were people
cheering as that building came down, as those buildings came down.


LUI: It`s been called doubling down, even tripling down, and seems to be
started operating procedure for Trump when challenged on the facts and what
he has said.

Some charged that the credibility of Trump`s statements are not examined
thoroughly enough by us, the media.

Here to help us get a better sense of the latest controversy, covering
Trump in general, is MSNBC political reporter Benjy Sarlin, currently off
to the campaign trail for now.

Benjy, thanks for joining us.

Trump is somebody you know quite well. This is sort of insult to injury as
some have been calling it. What`s the latest on his statements and the
fallout if any right now?

BENJY SARLIN, MSNBC POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, Donald Trump`s been making
statements like this a lot throughout the campaign, one that has gotten him
a lot of attention is something about Muslims but also information he
tweeted out about crime statistics involving blacks and whites have been
having an ugly racial tinge to them. I mean, these are falsehoods that are
spread, I don`t know whether it`s deliberately lying or not. But they`re
falsehoods that are obviously meant to reinforce very bigoted claims about

And now, we have the situation where he`s mocking a physically handicapped
reporter for their disability. Now, Trump claims he never met this person
who can say, whether Trump remembers him or not, but I will say this has
been Trump`s excuse for a lot of things when it`s become convenient nor

I was in the room when Trump, for example, kicked out Univision anchor
Jorge Ramos, and Trump`s first words to him when he stood up were, go back
to Univision. Now, when we asked Trump about this two minutes later, not
even, he was saying I have no idea who that is, I don`t know this guy, it
seemed completely patently obvious that Trump would both know who this
person is, as a very prominent reporter and he literally told him to go
back to his own network. So, it seems very hard to imagine he didn`t know
who this person was.

This has a lot of similarities to this. Take it as you will, but when
Trump says he doesn`t know this reporter, you have to have a grain of salt

LUI: All right. Benjy Sarlin, thank you so much for to the very latest on

I want to bring in now from Syracuse University, Robert Thompson, director
of the Bleier Center for Television and Popular Culture.

Robert, so as Benjy was outlining for us, it`s the statements of untruths,
and the question is, why haven`t folks said, hey, you are lying on this,
and this, of course, go into the intent, doesn`t it? At to the moment,
Trump doesn`t seem to be seeing too much fallout from it still.

ROBERT THOMPSON, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY: Well, I think a lot of people are
calling him on these things. I`ve seen a lot of segments about fact-
checking what Trump has just said, not only if we`re calling the media, not
only the news media establishments, but comedians are doing a bang up job
of night after night after night, showing a clip of something Trump said
and then deconstructing how the facts don`t bear this out.

What`s interesting is how extraordinarily this does not seem to affect his
popularity. There`s that old saw about the more coverage you get, the more
popular you are. The more popular you are, automatically, the more you
have to get covered. But that`s just isn`t true. Ask Bill Cosby, he got a
lot of negative attention but that did not help his popularity.

Yet Trump seems to be able to say these things that in so many contexts
that even got him fired, that even got him fired from "The Apprentice" and
the TV contests --

LUI: But not here.

THOMPSON: -- and it doesn`t seem to affect his poll numbers.

LUI: Robert, our panel is here with us as well, we would like to pipe in.

ALTER: I think just actually this might finally, Richard, start to bring
him down. He`s not going to collapse entirely, because there`s 15 percent,
20 percent, 25 percent of Republican voters who are going to vote for him
regardless. But in terms of a ceiling on his supports, it`s one thing in
the Republican Party to go after Mexicans, Muslims, you have a demagoguery
in that party that`s acceptable when it comes to minorities.

But most Americans have somebody they know or somebody in their family
who`s disabled and when he goes after a disabled man, who he`s lying about,
he knows this reporter Serge Kovaleski, he covered him when he was at "The
New York Daily News", he knows him well.

So, Donald Trump is just flat out lying in the last 48 hours about this.
This won`t go away. That video of him imitating a disabled man will play
many times, and I think it will limit his support. I think we look back on
it when he doesn`t win the nomination and say, you know what, the beginning
of the end for Trump was not mocking of disabled man.

LUI: On that point, where are we on this arc of the phenomenon of Donald
Trump, because we`re still in the space where he still was able to say
these things and the poll numbers as of yet have not taken a big hit.

SWEET: Well, I think he`s still, in preparation of this segment, I took a
walk down 5th Avenue last night to try and understand Trump. So, I went by
the Trump Tower, where I saw the Trump story, the Trump cafe, the Trump
grill, the Trump bar and the Trump atrium.

LUI: Welcome to New York, yes.

SWEET: Yes. So, you`re dealing with this asymmetric political force, for
whom just having your picture in every post office in America wouldn`t
quite equal to where he`s at now in his mind. But the process still has
many more chapters I think to play out, Jonathan, I just think that the
only reality that will hit him, I think will be the Iowa caucus.

And the second thing will be when he has to the start to spend his own
money in a significant way, which he has not yet, he has self-funded his
campaign, mostly. Is he going to spend a billion to keep it afloat?

ALTER: He doesn`t even have a billion. Even saying that he`s a
billionaire, a lot of magazines that have analyzed it are saying that`s not
even true. Basically you can`t believe a word that comes out of this guy`s

And it`s true that because of what`s going on in the Republican Party,
he`s been maintaining support. He has a floor beneath which he will not go
because there are people who will support him no matter what.

LUI: Right.

ALTER: He will go to that convention with a lot of delegates. But at a
certain point, there are norms that when you violate them, and I think
handicapped people fit that description.

LUI: The third rail, but the bullying seems to be working when it comes to
the media for him.

HOLMES: Well, we`ll see after this latest incident. A couple of things
that he`s really benefits from is his celebrity, number one, the feeling
that already know him to be outrageous, so when he makes outrageous
comments, they see part and parcel of the Trump persona, and that has also
translated to a lot of GOP voters as strength.

Donald Trump is willing to, you know, stick to the man, tell people like
say it like he calls it, or call it like he sees it, rather. But in the
case of mocking a disabled journalist, that`s none of those things. That`s
not showing strength. That`s showing someone who --


LUI: I want to get back to Robert here.

So, where are we in this arc here, Robert, if it`s a phenomenon of what
Donald Trump which was we`re saying here, are we towards the end before
this ends?

THOMPSON: Well, I think Donald Trump, he reminds me so much of P.T.
Barnum, he is really good at this act one of the process he`s in. But he`s
going to have the to get to act two, and I don`t think he`s going to be
nearly as good at operating at that stage of that electoral process as he
is in playing this act that he`s done so far.

LUI: Syracuse University`s Robert Thompson, thank you so much. Great
perspective and thanks for coming on MSNBC this morning.

THOMPSON: Thank you.

LUI: All righty.

Up next, a very different a kind of campaign that`s going on right now, the
Oscar campaign. A look at why some of the year`s best movies will not end
up winning the Oscar.


LUI: The Academy Awards taking place three months from today. And any
films that want to be eligible need to be in theaters before the end of
this year. And that means many of those potential Oscar contenders are
already at a theater near you or are heading there pretty soon.

Joining us now with the preview of this holiday season`s big movies is Jack
Rico, founder of showbiz

And so, since we`re talking about three months until the Oscars, a lot of
these directors, these producers, these houses are moving fast and furious
to get their movie into the Oscars. And it`s not all just good
programming, if you are good for --

JACK RICO, SHOWBIZCAFE.COM: No, a lot of it is just PR strategies and
overselling your film to a certain extent. And to a certain extent, it
also becomes an election campaign, a political campaign.

One of the best examples I remember is Harvey Weinstein hiring the services
of Stephanie Cutter who is a former campaign manager for President Obama in
2013, trying to sell that movie "Silver Linings Playbook". It was very
interesting how he had her not only consult but promote the film or
whatever it was. I mean, r even to the extent of how can you get your
movie into the White House for a screening in front of Obama.

LUI: Why is that important to see -- I mean, there`s the obvious PR bump
you get by that.

RICO: Right.

LUI: That direct objective of trying to get the White House to see it?

RICO: Because I think they have already sort of just exasperated every
other aspect of the PR campaign, how can we get this to go to the highest
powers in the country and get them to say something about the film, because
that will be a headline everywhere it is.

LUI: I want to get to what you think would be making it in, by the way.
But, quickly, how would you break it down, the sales and marketing side
versus or it`s just a good movie? Is it 50/50 now or?

RICO: Well, you know, Harvey Weinstein would say it`s 80/20.


LUI: -- and 20 percent is it`s a good movie.

RICO: Exactly. I think it`s I mean, you have great movies like
"Shakespeare in Love" that not everybody thought was great, but because it
was sold so well and marketed so well, it won best picture.

LUI: OK, you definitely follow rule as well, 80/20.

So what are some of the ones you`re watching that might get in there for
the Oscars?

RICO: You know, there`s a lot of movies that we still haven`t seen yet.
The press starts seeing them next week, from Alejandro Gonzalez Inarritu,
the Mexican director who won "The Birdman", you have "Joy" from David O.

But a lot of the ones that people are talking about right now is
"McCarthy`s Spotlight", which really has survived the inspiration in
journalism across many people here in America, and that seems to be the top
one. I`m not sure if it`s exactly going to get acting nominations,
probably as an ensemble cast. But the Oscars are really looking at this as
is best screenplay and best picture.

LUI: With the passing of Steve Jobs, there`s big buzz about the new movie.
Of course, it`s the second movie in a matter of, like, what, four years,
but it flopped at the box office, yes (ph)?

RICO: You know, probably. I think what happened with that movie is that
when you really look at it, it`s all sizzable, really no meat and potatoes.
The movie should not have been called "Steve Jobs". It should have been
called Lisa, which is the daughter of Steve Jobs daughter, because the
movie is really about the relationship between Jobs and his daughter. It
doesn`t ever really go into detail about the product launches or the
products itself.

LUI: All right. We got to go. But the force, is the force with you? Is
it with them? Is it going to make it to the Oscars?

RICO: You know, I think if the crowd pushes it enough, I mean, "Avatar," a
science fiction movie, went all the way to the best picture. I think this
is one that if it has that amount of sort of buzz and it`s technically
crafted and J.J. Abrams is very good at what he does, we could probably see
it, but maybe as a dark horse.

LUI: Yes, "Star Wars". It`s a brand notoriety either.

OK. Jack Rico, thank you so much from Thank you.

All right, up next for you: why are hard working producers -- and they do
work hard, they`re in the control room -- and why they may be feeling even
more nervous every time we carry a candidate`s life event on our air?


LUI: We`re still following the latest developments out of Colorado Springs
for you here on MSNBC and yesterday`s deadly shooting at a Planned
Parenthood clinic.

President Obama just releasing a statement this morning acknowledging the
work of law enforcement. Quote, "We know that law enforcement saved lives,
as so many of them do every day all across America. And we know that more
Americans and their families had fear forced upon them," end quote.

This morning, police released this mug shot of the alleged gunman, 57-year-
old Robert Lewis Dear of North Carolina. Three people including a police
officer were killed. Nine more people injured. And we`ll stay on top of
that story for you.

There`s a lot going on in addition to that. Let`s get caught up with some
of the other headlines making news with today`s panel.

All right. So, "The New York Times." I want to go to this first off. All
of you are covering the trail. It reads this headline, "Foul mouthed and
proud of it on the `16 campaign trail." This is following Trump`s lead
evidently. Republican candidates have evidently grown a little more
profane. Rand Paul dropping a four-letter word discussing the tradeoff
between safety, liberty. Even Jeb Bush has been on this as well.

Whether the three of you seeing it, they`re loving the expletives I guess.

SWEET: What the.

LUI: What the -- yes, yes. I can`t see Lynn saying that.

Always been there or is there really something new this time?

SWEET: Maybe it`s a way to humanize yourself, to kind of say I`m a regular
Joe or Joan, depending who your audience is. It`s a short cut. Though I
think there`s a big difference between the words that you have to have
stars in a newspaper and just say damn which is what Jeb Bush did, pretty

ALTER: This is all to show I`m growing a pair, because ISIS is a big
threat. I`m a cowboy who`s going to stand up to ISIS. Part of that is
showing that, you know, your language is getting tougher. And also I think
they think that will be a contrast to Hillary. Will try to make her --

SWEET: Can you see the debate --

LUI: I was thinking about the debates, exactly, right.


HOLMES: Jonathan I think hit the nail on the head. This is, you know, a
contest for ma cheese mow and who has the bigger pair I think is what you
called them.


LUI: John Kasich, he`s asking -- this is something dear to my heart,
University of Michigan. John Kasich asking Ohio residents to avoid wearing
pleated khakis. Now, you might know this, because Jim Harbaugh, the coach
of University of Michigan, loves them khakis and he`s known for wearing
them. The governor of Ohio also asking residents to avoid using the letter
M all day, the big game is today.

SWEET: You might as well tell people not to wear blue.

LUI: It`s not going to work out well. Do you guys have a game you`re

HOLMES: I would just say they`re unflattering.

LUI: Unflattering.

ALTER: It`s the only way Kasich is getting into the headlines with, you
know, his role as governor and representing Ohio against Michigan. Other
than that, he can`t get into the news cycle.

LUI: He`s trying to do that by talking about pants.

I want to get to this one. "Fortune" magazine, and this is relevant to our
discussion earlier today. Mark Zuckerberg and paternity leave. This,
about gender equality as well. This is about what the number one career
young girls want when they grow up.

And so, it`s very interesting -- 41 percent of girls now want careers in
science, technology, engineering or math, compared to only 32 percent of
boys. In 1989, it was -- well, teachers, nurses, flight attendants,
secretaries and hairdressers.

SWEET: Healthy, healthy development. Women would code.

LUI: Women would code.


LUI: That`s right. Girls who code. Women who code.

HOLMES: I love it. When I was growing up, math was my favorite subject.
Oddly, I watched a documentary that made me want to research parasitic
diseases and come up with a cure. That`s why I ended up in politics.

LUI: That makes sense.

ALTER: I think it`s obviously great for women and girls. It`s great for
the country. But there is a -- kind of a dark cloud underneath it, which
is you should have 41 percent of boys also wanting to go into science and
technology and STEM areas. What you have now is women outnumber men in
higher ed. I think it`s 53 percent of students in higher education are
women. And the men are falling behind at a very rapid pace.

LUI: Right, actually --

ALTER: Not adjusting to the global economy.

LUI: The interesting thought here is it could be -- my mother wanted to
get into STEM like 60 years ago but she became a teacher. It could be they
always had this desire. It`s just now being able to be expressed.

All right. We got to go. I want to thank our panel today. Thank you,
Amy. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, Lynn, so much. You guys have a
great Saturday.

And thank you for getting UP with us on this day.

Melissa Harris-Perry is coming up next. She`ll be joined live by the
former board chair of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America to
discuss yesterday`s shooting in Colorado.

Have a great Saturday.


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