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All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, November 30th, 2015

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Date: November 30, 2015
Guest: Mike Walrond, McKay Coppins, Robert Costa, Rebecca Traister,
Jessica Gonzalez-Rojas, Tony Dokoupil


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

great relationship with the black pastors.

HAYES: Donald Trump abruptly cancels an event that was planned to
feature endorsements from black pastors.

TRUMP: Probably some of the Black Lives Matter folks called them up,
saying, oh, you shouldn`t be meeting with Trump because he believes that
all lives matter.

HAYES: Tonight, he shares the stage with Herman Cain.

of Ubeki-beki-beki-stan-stan.

HAYES: Then, can a big New Hampshire endorsement distract voters from
Chris Christie`s actual record as governor?


HAYES: Plus, as a suspect from the Planned Parenthood shooting
appears in court, politicians draw their own conclusions.

registered to vote as a woman.

HAYES: And President Obama kicks off the Paris climate summit with a
bold prediction.

show the world what is possible when we come together.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

We`re looking at live pictures of a Donald Trump event in Macon,
Georgia, tonight. Over five months since he entered the presidential race
calling Mexican immigrants criminals and rapists, you would think observers
would stop being surprised by Trump`s capacity to make stuff up and offend
people. But you would be wrong. After his response to the Paris attacks
earned him the F-word, "fascist" by some Republicans on the record, Trump`s
rhetoric has continued to reach new lows, especially on the subject of
Muslims and terrorism.

In an interview this morning, he was asked his opinion of Islam in


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think that Islam is an inherently peaceful
religion that`s been by some small percentage as you just said, whatever
the percentage is, perverted by some, or do you think that Islam is an
inherently violent religion?

TRUMP (via telephone): Well, all I can say, John, is there`s
something going on. You know, there`s something definitely going on. I
don`t know that that question can be answered. It can be answered two
ways. It could be answered both ways.

But there`s something going on there. There`s something that there`s
a lot of hatred coming out of at least a big part of it. You see the
hatred. I mean, we see it every day.


HAYES: This comes as Trump refused yet again to back off his claims
of having seen Muslims in New Jersey celebrating on 9/11 even though
there`s zero evidence it actually happened.


TRUMP (via telephone): I saw it on television. I saw clips. And so
did many other people. And many people saw it in person. I`ve had
hundreds of phone calls to the Trump Organization saying, "We saw it.
There was dancing in the streets."

CHUCK TODD, NBC NEWS: This didn`t happen in New Jersey. There were
plenty of reports and you`re --

TRUMP: It did happen in New Jersey. Chuck, it did happen in New
Jersey. I have hundreds of people that agree with me. And by the way --


TODD: But they want to agree with you. That doesn`t make it true.


HAYES: After New Jersey governor and fellow 2016 contender Chris
Christie said today the celebrations definitely did not take place,
standing up for his home state of New Jersey, Trump responded that
Christie, quote, "really needs to be careful about what he says" --
something to consider.

The controversy over Trump`s claim has also resulted in a dust-up
between the candidate and a reporter named Serge Kovaleski which is now
being used as fodder for an attack ad by one of Trump`s other opponents.
You see, last week, Trump tweeted a "Washington Post" article from
September 18th, 2001 insisting it substantiated his claim about New Jersey
Muslims, even though the article mentioned only that law enforcement
detained and questioned some people who were allegedly seen celebrating the
9/11 attacks.

Now, after one of the reporters, Kovaleski, now at "The New York
Times," revealed that his reporting never bore out those allegations, this
was Trump`s response.


TRUMP: And now, the poor guy you`ve got to see this guy, ah, I don`t
know what I said, ah, I don`t remember. He`s going, like, I don`t
remember, maybe that`s what I said. This was 14 years ago, he still --
they didn`t do a retraction.


HAYES: You`ve got to see this guy. That`s how he starts that.

Trump was widely interpreted to be mocking Kovaleski, who has a
condition that restricts joint movement. And while Trump defended himself
in a statement saying, quote, "I had no idea who this reporter Serge
Kovaleski is. If Mr. Kovaleski is handicapped I would not know because I
do not know what he looks like."

Well, there`s increasing evidence that has emerged that the two knew
each other as far back as the late `80s when Kovaleski was covering Trump
for "The New York Daily News".

Today, John Kasich released an online attack ad -- his second in two
weeks -- suggesting Trump`s behavior is unworthy of the Oval Office.

And today, Trump`s campaign hit a bit of a snag over an event that was
billed as a big endorsement by more than 100 black religious leaders.
Although Trump still held a private meeting with the group his campaign
abruptly canceled the planned press conference after some people listed as
attendees publicly said they weren`t actually supporting Trump. The multi-
event`s organizer told "Politico" it was nothing more than, quote,
"miscommunication" with Trump`s campaign staff. This was the candidate`s


TRUMP: I think what happened probably it gets publicity unfortunately
as everything I do gets publicity. And probably some of the Black Lives
Matter folks called them up saying oh, you shouldn`t be meeting with Trump
because he believes that all lives matter. I believe black lives do matter
but I believe all lives matter. Very strongly.


HAYES: Even though that event fell short of the outright endorsement
Trump was looking for, after the meeting, he flew to Georgia to be
introduced at his rally by pizza magnate and 2012 Republican candidate
Herman Cain.

Joining me now Pastor Mike Walrond. He`s senior pastor at First
Corinthian Baptist Church here in East Harlem, New York.

Pastor, you`ve been fairly critical of let`s say the optics
surrounding this. Candidates meet with pastors all the time. What`s your

some ways, there`s a part of me, Chris, that wants to rebel against the
tendency by some to paint African-Americans and maybe even African-American
clergy as this kind of monolithic --

HAYES: Yes, exactly.

WALROND: -- group, and that is not the case. I respect those pastors
who wanted to meet with Trump today, those who endorse and those who did
not endorse.

For me, though, we understand what the optics mean, especially for
candidate and what the appearance gives. So, I think, in that regard, it
troubles me a little bit because I come from a particular tradition of
social justice engagement and prophetic engagement and there were those who
said they needed to hear what Mr. Trump had to say to determine whether or
not they would endorse him which I thought was strange.

We`ve heard a lot from Mr. Trump already. And things that disturbed
me that we`re at a critical time in the history of this country, where
there`s so much division and there`s so much bitterness and we see it in
the events that have taken place over the past year and a half, especially
around race. To see someone who has a platform that is increasingly I
think divisive and gives the hint of racism, even fascism as some have
stated, is troubling to me.

But on one hand, I don`t dismiss it at all. Not just because of his
high numbers and ratings he`s getting, but I don`t dismiss it because
clearly Mr. Trump is hitting something, is hitting a nerve. He`s
representing the ideas and the feelings and the sentiments and the emotions
of a large population of our country.

HAYES: You know, the point you started out with struck me as an
important one. I want to play a little bit of an account of what this
meeting was like, I thought it was sort of interesting of Trump actually
not speaking for himself in the meeting. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had a very productive, constructive meeting.
We made history today because we had meaningful dialogue with Mr. Donald
Trump and we voiced concerns that were sensitive to the African-American
community and we asked questions and the questions were answered. We were
all satisfied with the answers and we`re a unified front right here --
wonderful time, wonderful dialogue, wonderful fellowship, wonderful action.
It was a great day.


HAYES: That was Dr. Darryl Scott, pastor in Cleveland. I`m sorry,
not the clip I was talking about. But that was Dr. Scott in Cleveland sort
of talking about what a great event it was. Omarosa over her shoulder who
I don`t believe is a pastor in any way.

WALROND: She is.

HAYES: She is a minister.


HAYES: I learn something new every day.

So here`s my question to you -- your point about people not being
monolithic. Millions of African-Americans. And there`s tens of thousands
of African-American preachers, people of different political opinions. Can
you imagine any world in which Donald Trump got significant African-
American support?

WALROND: No. I think the polls show that 70 percent of -- 75 percent
I think of African-Americans are opposed to what Mr. Trump represents. And
I think there will be a population of persons. There are African-American
Republicans. There are African-American Democrats. There are African-
Americans who are independent.

He will have a following. There will be people who support him. I
believe the majority of African-Americans will not. For me personally,
again, it is the language. It is the divisiveness.

I am part of a tradition that believes in dealing and standing with
and for those who are oppressed. When you begin to denigrate immigrants,
and you begin to make fun of women and then you make fun of someone who`s
disabled, he`s showing you who he is right now.

HAYES: You know, it was interesting to me, too, the way this played
out which this poster got leaked and all these folks. It seemed to me an
interesting moment in terms of just sort of -- when you talk about not
being monolithic. There was some backlash before this meeting ever

WALROND: Oh, yes.

HAYES: And you could sort of see it as it unfolded. We`re going to
do this meeting, maybe we`re going to endorse, maybe not. And then this
sort of crescendo backlash people started walking back.

Do you think the dynamics are different now around a meeting like this
than they would have been ten years ago?

WALROND: I think it might have been the same, even if ten years ago.
I think the issues that African-Americans face in this country have not
shifted very much in ten years we`re talking about. So the issues that are
critical, whether it`s issues around education, housing, poverty, those are
real in the community.

And I think this meeting would have had the same kind of backlash ten
years ago. I mean, because there are people who just do not find
themselves drawn by Mr. Trump`s rhetoric. And there`s nothing galvanizing
about those who want to see a different kind of America right now. And in
fact, his words really can strike terror in some people`s hearts because of
the way he`s speaking and who he represents, and the fact that he`s leading
and winning.

HAYES: We`re going to see how long that lasts.

Pastor Walrond, really a pleasure. Thank you for coming in.

WALROND: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Joining me now, McKay Coppins, senior writer of
"BuzzFeed News", author of the new book that drops tomorrow, "The
Wilderness: Deep Inside the Republican Party`s Combative, Contentious,
Chaotic Quest to Take Back the White House".


HAYES: Alliterative.

And Joan Walsh, MSNBC political analyst, national affairs
correspondent for "The Nation" magazine.

Well, I thought that the three things that we sort of cued up here,
right? You got this insistence that he saw this thing happen which
everyone says didn`t happen. It didn`t happen. You saw Chuck Todd -- I
thought he had a great line in that exchange where Trump says, well, all
these people agree with me. And Chuck says, well, just because they agree
with you doesn`t make it true, which is in some ways --


COPPINS: They want to agree with you, which I think is a key point,

HAYES: That in some ways is the kind of reality distortion field that
has kind of become the vortex around this -- around which this race kind of

COPPINS: Yes. In my book when I write about Donald Trump, the
chapter that focuses on him is called "Into the Fever Swamps." And the
reason is because unlike any -- you know, all the other Republicans that I
profile in the book, basically unlike any other Republican presidential
candidate that`s maintained this kind of lead, he really laid the
foundation for his entire political career with -- by spreading widely
debunked conspiracy theories.

HAYES: About Barack Obama. Yes. Right. Let`s remember.

COPPINS: And this is funny because people kind of have forgotten this
because it`s been so many other things that he said that people --

JOAN WALSH, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: He`s the birther in chief.

COPPINS: Right. The birther crusade was what made him famous on the
right. And it started with kind of this fringe, right? This was a fringe
idea that he then mainstreamed -- he helped to mainstream in the party.

And what I think is fascinating about all the things that Trump has
been saying about Muslims and African-Americans, all these crazy things are
that what he does is he helps create this kind of mirage that -- in the
fever swamps and when then conservatives see it, when fellow conservatives
see it he uses that as proof that it`s true, right? And it`s this circular
thing that keeps happening. Hundreds of people have been calling and
saying that they saw it too, which they didn`t because it didn`t happen,
but because he keeps saying it so much he`s convincing people that they saw

HAYES: Well, the other day, you know, on this thing about this thing
with -- it`s also to me a testament to someone who just can`t admit ever
they`re wrong. It`s sort of --

WALSH: And they love him for that too.

HAYES: Right. It`s like I`ve been caught dead to rights. But no, I
saw it anyway.

We`ve all met people like that in our lives and usually those are just
profoundly destructive people to be around, destructive for any institution
they occupy and destructive in any family they occupy. This is not like an
unknown personality type to people, right? And these people tend to be
very troublesome individuals.

That said, the other day he retweets an Info Wars link about the
celebrations happening. And I joked on Twitter, we are about 48 hours from
Bush knocked down the towers from Donald Trump. He is so off the normal
kind of four squares agreed to reality.

WALSH: Well, I think there are a couple different categories. We did
a taxonomy of his lies and what his supporters think about them because
there are some that belong to the category of I don`t care if he`s right or
not, he could be right, there were people celebrating in East Jerusalem --
well, it could have been east, you know, Jersey City.


WALSH: Paterson.

HAYES: Right.

WALSH: You know, it could have happened. Then there`s the category
of I like that he says stuff like this because the world is too politically

So, I`ve actually seen people say, who cares if he mocked a reporter
for being disabled, which is disgusting. We were all raised not to ever do
that. But people were like, oh, we`ve gotten too soft and sensitive. But
then there`s a third thing going on -- which is it is taking place against
the backdrop, let`s admit it, of a Republican primary that is not
distinguished by its love for the truth.

I mean, you`ve got Ted Cruz, you just showed it, saying a
transgendered leftist activist is responsible for the Planned Parenthood
shootings. You`ve got Carly Fiorina --

HAYES: You`re going to force me to defend Ted Cruz`s context.


HAYES: I want to note for the record, for the people doing the
transcript that the full context of that isn`t quite that. But continue.


WALSH: He did say it. Carly Fiorina continues to lie about the
Planned Parenthood video. The entire field has defined amnesty as the 13-
year track including fines to a pathway to citizenship. And Jeb Bush told
us that George Bush kept us safe.

So, there`s -- the whole campaign is taking place in this bizarro
world where facts still matter.

HAYES: Do you agree with this thesis that essentially this is a
difference in degree and not of kind when you`re talking to Trump which is
basically --

WALSH: It is.

HAYES: -- the theory you`re advancing.

COPPINS: No, because I think there`s a difference between what Carly
Fiorina said about planned parenthood which was untrue but was clearly
rooted in some existing video that she was just miss --

WALSH: But when she`s coop fronted with it she continues to say it
happened even though reporters and fact checkers said, no, actually we`ve
walked the whole --

COPPINS: But can you really say that that`s the same thing as saying
Barack Obama wasn`t born in the United States when there`s literally, I
mean -- or Muslims are cheering on 9/11? I mean, I just think it`s --


COPPINS: And I think also that many of the things that Trump has
latched on to are rooted in this kind of toxic nativist fringe that`s
always existed on the American right, from the John Birch Society
newsletters to world government chat rooms, right?

HAYES: Right.

COPPINS: But what we`re seeing now is there`s been -- in the Obama
era with democratized media and deregulated political money, you`ve seen a
huge flow of cash and clout and political influence to that fringe --

HAYES: To those corners, right.

COPPINS: -- which has created kind of a counter-establishment, right,
that`s amplified these voices and made it actually worthwhile for
politicians to latch on to.

WALSH: I really understand what you`re arguing and I basically -- I
mostly agree with you but I do want to say, we routinely leave out of our
definition of this lunatic fringe the anti-abortion -- the violent anti-
abortion right that believes absolutely crazy things.

And so, when you have -- when we`re talking about Donald Trump`s lies
and we`re not talking about -- well, he also said this weekend, he also
told Chuck lots of people are really mad that Planned Parenthood is selling
baby parts.

They`re not selling baby parts. And this entire focus on demonizing
Planned Parenthood is -- that comes out of the fever swamp, too.

HAYES: Right. And yet that occupies a slightly more mainstream
position even within the kind of controversial world of Trumpism.

COPPINS: No, and I understand where Joan`s coming from. I think the
difference is that there are pro-life -- there are social conservatives who
are against abortion who are not violent at all, right? There are not that
many people who avidly agree or believe that Muslims were cheering on 9/11,
that Obama was born outside the United States, that are also kind of just
totally reality -- based in reality and understand what everything is going

That said, that is changing. And with Donald Trump --

HAYES: Well, that`s the question.

COPPINS: -- holding the megaphone, right?

HAYES: And how much he`s actually -- the question with Trump, right,
is that how much he`s a reflection of this stuff and how much he`s actually
constituting a kind of new constituency for himself.

McKay Coppins and Joan Walsh, thank you both.

COPPINS: Thank you.

WALSH: Thank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, when Donald Trump turns his rhetoric against a
fellow candidate, it`s generally a sign they`re gaining some traction. Why
Chris Christie is now in his sights.

Plus, should the attack on Planned Parenthood we were just discussing
be considered an act of domestic terrorism? We`ll take a look at the
rhetoric and the classification around the shooting.

Later, the first trial begins in the case of Freddie Gray over seven
months after his death in police custody.

Those stories and more, ahead.


HAYES: Today, one of the most -- New York`s most powerful
politicians, former Democratic Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, was
convicted on federal corruption charges that included bribery, extortion,
and money laundering. Prosecutors showed Silver had accepted nearly $4
million in illegal payments in various quid pro quo schemes. Silver spent
nearly 40 years in the New York state assembly, serving as speaker for more
than two decades -- one of the most powerful men in New York politics,
until he was forced to resign following his arrest this year.

U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara said the case made it clear the show-me-
the-money culture of Albany has been perpetuated at the very top of the
political food chain.

Silver who is now 71 faces a maximum sentence of 130 years behind
bars. And you can bet his conviction today has a whole lot of politicians
in New York in both parties very, very nervous.



TODD: Tell us how you started -- you cut the field to get to the
point where you decided to pick Chris Christie. He was among a group of
how many that you were seriously considering for the endorsement?

looking just at the governors. It was left with Kasich, Bush, and
Christie. And from that myself and my editorial writer and some people
that I respect in the community, we looked and Christie is the guy who can
take the fight to Trump, Hillary, ISIS.


HAYES: New Jersey Governor Chris Christie got some good news and some
bad news over the weekend. They both came in the same package.

First the good news. He picked up the much sought-after endorsement
of the influential newspaper "The New Hampshire Union Leader." In a piece
titled, "For our safety, our future: Chris Christie for president," the
paper`s publisher wrote, "Chris Christie is a solid pro-life conservative
who`s managed to govern in liberal New Jersey. But the one reason he may
be best suited to lead in these times is because he tells it like it is and
isn`t shy about it."

The endorsement comes as Christie`s favorability rating among New
Hampshire Republicans is at 54 percent according to a recent Monmouth
University poll. That`s a 16 percent increase from just two months ago.

But likability and electability are two very different things, which
brings us to the bad news, which is that prior presidential hopefuls
endorsed by the "Union Leader" include Newt Gingrich, Steve Forbes, and Pat
Buchanan twice.

Still, the paper`s endorsement and the endorsement of former speaker
of New Hampshire House of Representatives Donna Sytek, which is expected to
be announced tomorrow, appears to be part of a reaction to the Trump
phenomenon, a major push by the Republican establishment for a viable
alternative in the wake of Jeb Bush`s reduced status as a candidate.

While establishment lawmakers and donors see Christie as one anti-
Trump option, another is of course Marco Rubio, who`s already collected
endorsements from 18 members of Congress. That includes Representative
Darrell Issa, who announced his support for Rubio today.

Joining me now, Robert Costa, national political reporter at "The
Washington Post."

All right, Robert, here`s my feeling about what`s happening with Chris
Christie. I feel like I am watching the media and a certain part of the
political establishment and the donor class will a Chris Christie rebirth
narrative that as of yet has not materialized in the actual polling.

ROBERT COSTA, THE WASHINGTON POST: Let`s stick to the reporting,
right? It has not started to materialize at all in the polls. But he is
certainly having a moment when it comes to media attention. I think "The
Union Leader" endorsement, as you say, it guarantees nothing in terms of
its political capital but it does bring renewed attention to Christie.

The problem for Christie is he`s still fighting a complicated crowded
race in New Hampshire. The same type of politician, a mainstream
Republican hawk, Kasich, Bush, Rubio, they`re all out there banking on New

HAYES: The other thing about Christie is this campaign season is so
long -- we were just talking about Donald Trump and his sort of birtherism
which seems many, many chapters ago. I mean, part of the problem Christie
had is that he`s really not particularly popular in the state he`s
governing and there`s lots of people who think he`s done a bad job
governing it.

And I say that as sort of reflective of conservative opinion. This is
his 39 percent approval rating in New Jersey, 67 percent say Christie
should drop out of the race. And 5 percent of New Jerseyans would choose
Chris Christie as GOP candidate. That strikes me as that still remains the
biggest obstacle that guy has.

COSTA: And his rivals have yet to bring up the bridge scandal. That
could be a problem for Christie on the horizon.

The reason Christie is having a bit of a moment, why he`s getting a
boost is really simple. One, post-Paris you see someone with his
prosecutor profile, someone who`s been a former U.S. attorney, tough talk.
He`s rising with the Republican hawks in New Hampshire.

And he is a political talent.

HAYES: Right.

COSTA: When it comes to holding the town hall meeting, he`s pretty

HAYES: Yes. I mean, that`s one of the things I think we`re starting
to see on display more. You see it in Ted Cruz, some of the videos that
come out of his events. You see it with Chris Christie. Just as sort of a
descriptive matter of their political ability to work a room, talk to a
crowd, you can see that I think in the case of both Cruz and Christie, and
you`ve been on the trail a lot, these are two people that really -- that
are good at that. They have a kind of innate talent when it comes to that.

COSTA: They do, and Cruz especially in Iowa. He`s connecting in a
serious way. He has the organization there.

But for Christie, it`s a more complicated path because the Republican
establishment, as you said, the donor class, Washington officials, they see
Rubio as a voice for the next generation. Rubio is someone who doesn`t
have as many problems. So, if Jeb Bush and Kasich, aren`t seen as someone
who could win that establishment lane -- looks like Rubio`s ahead of
Christie even though Christie is surging in his own way in New Hampshire.

HAYES: Is that how you would handicap it right now? It was
interesting to watch as these endorsements flow in. And if you actually go
back, FiveThirtyEight`s been doing a good job of tracking this. Rubio has
really been racking up a lot of endorsements.

There`s a real division between his polling performance and his
endorsements. He`s gone up a little in the polls, but he`s nowhere near
the front, but it does feel like the momentum toward him from these folks
who are looking for a kind of establishment vessel continues.

COSTA: And look at the map. Christie`s putting all of his chips on
New Hampshire. He`s running a different race than Rubio. Where`s Rubio
this week? He`s going to be in Alabama, part of that March 1st Super
Tuesday primary. Rubio`s running much more of a national campaign.
Christie`s banking on New Hampshire.

HAYES: And does Rubio have the kind of infrastructure and funding to
play out a long game strategy?

COSTA: He doesn`t have Bush-type money when it comes to the super
PACs, but Rubio is running a national operation. He has a large team in
South Carolina. He has people spread throughout the Super Tuesday states,
getting them on the ballot.

The Rubio play is do well in Iowa. He`s been there a lot as well,
more than Christie in a sense. Try to come out of the top, the first few
races in the top three, be in it for the long haul. Christie in his way is
trying to get a big bounce out of New Hampshire.

HAYES: All right. Robert Costa, thanks for joining us.

COSTA: Thank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, a look at the political tiptoeing of some 2016
candidates when asked to talk about the Planned Parenthood shooting.


HAYES: The suspect in the Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood
attack made his first court appearance today.

Wearing a protective vest and appearing via closed circuit TV, Robert
Dear was informed he faces first-degree murder charges, which could bring
the death penalty. He was held without bond.

Dear barricaded himself in the Colorado Springs facility Friday and
allegedly shot and killed three people, including a police officer, and
wounded nine others.

Although Dear`s full motives are not completely known, the phrase "no
more baby parts" has been attributed to him by two senior law enforcement
speaking to NBC News, along with a rant including mention of President

The "baby parts" phrase seems to be a clear reference to a series of
heavily edited videos released by anti-abortion activists that purported to
show Planned Parenthood, quote, "selling parts for profit," which would be
illegal and which Planned Parenthood has argued persuasively was not

The political fallout since Friday`s attack has been very intense, and
the president of Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains pointed to the
heated rhetoric that has become a daily fact of the abortion debate,
particularly over the past few months.


We`ve experienced so much hateful language, hateful speech, such a negative
environment has been created around the work that Planned Parenthood does.

I can`t believe that this isn`t contributing to some folks, mentally
unwell or not, thinking that it`s okay to target Planned Parenthood, or to
target abortion


HAYES: Anti-abortion politicians in the GOP have either steered clear
of comment or condemned the shooting, while also attempting to dismiss any
possible link between rhetoric and violence.


anyone who tries to link this terrible tragedy to anyone who opposes
abortion or opposes the sale of body parts, is this is typical left-wing

Any protesters should always be peaceful, whether it`s Black Lives
Matter or pro-life protesters. Protesters should always be peaceful and

BEN CARSON, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Obviously, you know, any hate
crime is a horrible thing, no matter from where it comes, and should be
condemned very

PAUL RYAN, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: This murder that occurred in
Colorado, is tragic. It is a criminal act. We don`t fully know the
motivations of this deranged
individual. We know that he was a man who registered to vote as a woman,
and the media promptly wants to blame him on the pro-life movement, when at
this point
there`s very little evidence to indicate that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was reported he said, "no more baby parts" as
he was

RYAN: Well, it`s also been reported that he was registered as an
Independent and as a woman and a transgendered leftist activist.

If that`s what he is, I don`t think it`s fair to blame on the rhetoric
on the left. This is a murder.


HAYES: Just to be clear, there`s no evidence, by the way, the suspect
was a
quote, "transgendered leftist activist." I`m not quite sure where that came

Some Democrats, including DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz, have
called the attack an act of terrorism. There`s certainly an impulse by
many, widely shared to insist that we call this an act of domestic
terrorism, particularly since that word has such political power.

I think that`s a bad idea. I`ll explain, next.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Regardless of why he did it, what he did is
terrorism, and what he did is absolutely abominable. Especially to those of
us in the pro-life movement. Because there`s nothing about any of us that
would condone or in any way look the other way at something like this.


HAYES: Joining me now, Rebecca Traister, writer at large from New
York Magazine, and Jessica Gonzalez-Rojas, she`s executive director of the
National Latina Institute for Reproductive Health.

So, here`s my argument about domestic terrorism. I think there`s an
impulse to label things domestic terrorism as a means of saying this is an
act of political violence and it`s important, important and we should
marshal the kind of concern over it that we marshal over, say, the Boston
Marathon bombing, right? Which, let`s be clear, killed less people. Fewer

But it also strikes me that going -- calling lots of things terrorism
is not really a long-run political solution to any of the kind of violence
we face, and in fact, lots of things we label terrorism we don`t go about
combating in a particularly useful way.

REBECCA TRAISTER, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: I agree. It kind of repeats the

HAYES: It`s a way of sort of leveling everything up, without sort of
taking them on. Will this actually solve the problem?

TRAISTER: I think a lot of the clamor for it comes from, here is an
instance in which this terrible event hits at a number of facets of what
have been expressed in Republican extremism as extreme rhetoric, right?

It is certainly -- it seems to be about abortion. It certainly took
place at a Planned Parenthood clinic. Whatever his motives are, all we know
is that he was muttering about baby parts.

I mean, this hits hard at a right-wing talking point over the last few
months. It hits at issues of gun control. It hits at the way that
Republicans have been talking about the dangers of letting Syrian refugees
enter for fear that they`re going to do violence, right? It hits at a lot
of these things.

And I think there`s a hunger on the part of people on the left to hit
back, right? And say look at what this is. And that`s where that impulse
toward calling it an act of terrorism comes from.

HEALTH: And I think we have to remember that this doesn`t happen in a
vacuum, but the years
and years of anti-choice activist, legislatures and organizations repeating
speech, violent hate speech, that this fuels and breeds this kind of

So I think we need to recognize that, who`s responsible.

HAYES: Okay, but let me push back on that.

I think the argument that people in the anti-abortion camp will make
is look, there are millions of Americans who are morally opposed to
abortion, who conduct
themselves, they go to the March for Life, they do all this stuff, they
vote for politicians, and there`s this horrible violent murder, alleged,
right? And he has nothing to do with us.

In the same way that I remember when that guy murdered two cops in New
York City, right? He had a hashtag of -- about Black Lives Matter or
something. It was very evident to me that had nothing to do with the Black
Lives Matter movement.

Is that a fair distinction or is it something different?

TRAISTER: Yeah, I think that`s very fair. I think people can go too
far, and there have been suggestions that the bitter rhetoric voiced by
some in the anti-abortion movement and by Republicans, you know, it gets a
little nervous to make the allusion too close between that and the actions
of one violent individual who has committed a mass murder and mass

I do think that there are some stronger links.

For example, Ted Cruz, who was one of the first Republican candidates
to come out and condemn the attacks, and I was glad to hear him do it
because they`d been silent for about a day, earlier in the week he had
celebrated the endorsement of an activist who has directly advocated for
violence, and who has written in a book that he supports the execution of
abortionists. That`s a guy whose endorsement Ted Cruz was celebrating
several days before.

That`s a pretty direct link. That doesn`t mean that Ted Cruz was

HAYES: No. Right.

TRAISTER: But it`s a link between somebody who`s advocating actual

HAYES: And Jessica, as you say right, I mean, since 1977, eight
murders, 17 attempted murders, bombings and arson.

There`s a history here, in fact, there was a bulletproof vest in a
safe room in that Planned Parenthood.

GONZALEZ-ROJAS: And I think we have to pull it out from the
people and look at the systemic issues.

Words have consequences. When you spew hateful rhetoric, when you spew
dehumanization of women providers, clinic staff, that leads to this kind of
And I think we need to look at it much more systemically than the
particular action of particular people and call it what it is.

HAYES: Well, what is it, then?

GONZALEZ-ROJAS: Well, it is domestic terrorism.

HAYES: You think it is?

GONZALEZ-ROJAS: Yeah. And I do think that we have to look at the
consequences that we need to face in terms of prosecuting and pursuing the
dangers this individual has put -- that the lives he`s put in jeopardy. And
the violence that providers and clinicians and people have faced in just
receiving the services for themselves, their health, their family, their

So, I think it`s really critical to call it what it is and ensure that
we`re advocating for the safety of our community. And I`m so grateful that
Parenthood is continuing to provide services, because it doesn`t spark
fear. It actually galvanizes so many in our community to ensure that women
and families are able to get the care that they need.

TRAISTER: I think you made such an important point about some of the
philosophy behind language, and one of the things that has happened in the
debate over abortion in recent decades has been the dehumanization of the
women who require reproductive health services, the doctors who provide
them, with the focus
entirely -- the moral focus having been shifted by abortion opponents to
the fetus.

HAYES: And the other thing that strikes me here is that this is a
window into the fact that if you -- just how, you know, we hear abortion is
murder, right? That is very frequent. They`re killing babies. Right? This
is the common rhetoric. That`s mainstream anti-abortion rhetoric.

To think for a second about what that would mean if you believed that,
if you took that seriously, right? I mean, America is undergoing
essentially a mass slaughter, a Holocaust, right?

I mean, there are millions of abortions in America every year. If you
think that is -- if you think that it`s murder and you think that the
entire institutional structure of American life is essentially complicit in
this ongoing murder, that`s a pretty intense thing to think about the state
of America.

GONZALEZ-ROJAS: I think that no matter how you feel about abortion,
it is shown and the polling shows that people support woman`s ability to
get the health care that she needs.

So, that`s a strong value for the Latino community that we work with,
to show support and to not judge someone who`s not ready to become a

So that`s an important value no matter how you feel about abortion.

HAYES: Right. I mean, but that gets to the point that people can
abstractly say one thing about their feelings about abortion, and then when
you sort of drill down and push on that polling, you end up getting
different results.


TRAISTER: Yes. And that`s very true.

The other thing is that I`m not sure that even the most heartfelt
personal beliefs that abortion is murder leads us logically to the
justification of other murder. Right?

In part --

HAYES: One would hope.

TRAISTER: One would hope.

HAYES: Because I think there are millions of Americans who do believe
it is.

TRAISTER: Right. You can call -- you can describe the intensity
without it helping -- without making this make -- or make any more sense.

HAYES: People should read my colleague`s (inaudible) interviews with
bunch of people in the movement who flirt with essentially outright

TRAISTER: They pretty much do justify it.

HAYES: Rebecca Traister and Jessica Gonzalez-Rojas. Thank you very

Coming up, the first of six back-to-back trials started today for the
officers charged in relation to the death of Freddie Gray. What happened
inside that courtroom, ahead.


HAYES: In the wake of the murder in Planned Parenthood in Colorado
Springs, we`ve actually been working on a long feature about abortion
rights in this country, about some of the rhetoric directed at abortion
providers, the threats that one abortion provider in particular faces, and
the ways in which the anti-abortion movement has managed to restrict access
to abortion in a way that almost
mirrors what it was like for women before the landmark Roe V. Wade

We`re going to bring you that report tomorrow night. You don`t want to
miss it.


HAYES: Today, seven months after 25-year-old Freddie Gray died from
injuries sustained in Baltimore police custody, jury selection for the
first police officer to go on trial in connection with his death began.

Officer William Porter, who`s been charged with manslaughter, assault,
misconduct, and reckless endangerment is accused of failing to get Gray
help while he was in a police van following his April arrest.

He has pled not guilty to all charges.

Porter`s is just the first of what will be six back-to-back, high-
profile trials for the officers charged in Gray`s death.

Earlier today, as protesters gathered outside the courthouse, dozens
of potential jurors, who will remain anonymous, were questioned about their
of the case. That process is expected to take several days with the trial
itself wrapping by mid December.

Prosecutors have said that they are trying Officer Porter first
because they consider him a "material witness" against two other officers,
according to the
Baltimore Sun.

The trials come at a time when the city of Baltimore is still
experiencing a tremendous amount of tumult following the unrest in April.
And today, the city girds itself for what will likely be a very tense
several months.


JUSTIN FENTON, THE BALTIMORE SUN: I think that what happened that day
in April where things boiled over, I think that`s a very sort of organic,
you know,
unusual incident. I don`t see that happening again.

But, at the same time, I think that this trial and these trials as
they continue, there`s a sense in the community of uneasiness and, you
know, what might

We don`t know what could happen based on the way these trials go.


HAYES: Next month we`ll be going back to Baltimore for an in-depth
look at what led to the unrest in April and what it`s meant for the city in
the months
You don`t want to miss that.



words of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., that there is such a thing as being
too late. And when it comes to climate change, that hour is almost upon us.

But if we act here and if we act now, if we place our own short-term
interests behind the air that our young people will breathe and the food
that they
will eat and the water that they will drink and the hopes and dreams that
sustain their lives, then we won`t be too late for them.


HAYES: Today, Barack Obama joined world leaders in Paris for one of
the most high-stakes, important negotiations of his entire presidency.

The climate talks in Paris, which kicked off today, will, simply put,
help determine whether or not the international community manages to put in
place a system of binding, accountable system to keep the planet`s
temperature rise in a
non-catastrophic window.

And across the world the negotiations are being watched extremely

In the Philippines protesters yesterday marched calling for swift
action on climate change. In Yemen people gathered on the streets of Sana`a
on the eve of the Paris talks. In Indonesia thousands took to the streets
of Jakarta in the name of climate justice.

Meanwhile, in Paris over 100 people have been arrested after clashes
with police over the weekend during an action leading up to the beginning
of the
climate gathering.

Back here at home, congressional Republicans are readying an attack on
the president`s climate agenda in anticipation of the international climate

Both senate majority leader Mitch McConnell and house majority leader
Kevin McCarthy railed against the president`s climate policies.

Tomorrow, the house is scheduled to take the rhetoric one step
further, voting on two resolutions that would undo the administration`s
landmark carbon
emissions standards for power plants, which is the crown jewel of the
president`s climate agenda thus far.

Joining me now, Tony Dokoupil, host of Greenhouse on MSNBC, and a man
who`s headed to Paris very soon.

Okay. So, I don`t know anything about -- let`s say I know nothing
about the climate talks. What are they talking about? What are they doing?

now and then, we on this earth do something to really, really damage the
place and we have to take action.

Back in the `80s we had a big hole in the ozone layer, we had to fix
that. Then, in the `90s we had an acid rain problem, really problematic, we
had to do
something to fix that.

Now, we have this global warming problem. We keep putting stuff in the
and it`s making it get really, really hot, and storms are getting stronger
and ice is melting and oceans are getting further into our property.

It`s a problem and we have to do something now, and if we don`t, it`s
going to be a bigger problem for our kids and even bigger problem for their

HAYES: Okay. I want to start with those first two (inaudible) because
I think this is so important for people to understand.

When I hear oh, climate talks, I think like who are we -- they`re not
going to do anything. It`s all hopeless, it`s not going to work. All these
people are going to get together, nothing`s going to come out of it.

But the ozone problem, right, we were putting these CFCs in the air,
were putting a hole in the ozone layer that was bad, all these different
countries had to come together. We actually did have like a binding treaty
that completely

DOKOUPIL: Totally successful.

HAYES: 100%. Countries came together and they actually did fix it.

DOKOUPIL: But there are about 20 reasons to doubt success this time,
and those 20 reasons are the 20 prior climate talks that have occurred
since 1992, where nothing has resulted.

Emissions, which caused this warming, have gone up 60% since we first
started talking about it. So the opposite of what you would hope.

And yet, this time is different. For the first time we have over 150
countries already coming to the table saying we know it`s a problem and
we`re going to pledge to make a difference. They`ve already said that.

You don`t have to like twist their arms to get that deal at the end.
They`ve already said we get it, we`re going to change.

HAYES: One of the things you see in American political discourse
around this issue, and you see it particularly from the right, is this idea
that like climate
change is this like boutique issue for kind of like affluent liberals who
like whole foods. And, it`s so disconnected from how central this issue is
across huge swaths of the world.

DOKOUPIL: It`s about the habitability of the planet going forward.

Literally it`s on that scale of a problem. And Obama was mocked again
by people on the political right today for comparing the terrorism threat
to the climate threat, and saying climate change is a bigger threat.

And that is not ridiculous because that`s what his military leaders
are saying. The Department of Defense puts out this big priority report
every four years about what we`re scared about, and climate change is in
there as a threat

I`ve personally sat with the chief combat climatologist in the air
force and I was like, what are the generals asking you? And they`re like,
they want to know where the next starvation zone related to climate change
is going to be. Where the guys with the machetes are going to come through
because they don`t have the resources they used to have.

Hot spots develop because of heat and then they become hot spots in
terms of human conflict as a result.

HAYES: So, we`ve got this huge collective action problem. All these
countries are going to have to come forward. And you`ve got an issue where
basically you want everyone else to try to pick up the check. It`s like --

DOKOUPIL: It`s like a dinner.

HAYES: Ari Shapiro did a good piece. I should credit Ari Shapiro at
the NPR where he sort of used this metaphor where you kind of want to --
like, if you`re there long enough and maybe you ordered an appetizer and
you`re one of three people, but like maybe you can sort of get away with
like getting everyone else to pay for your appetizer. That`s the basic
dynamic at these talks, right?

DOKOUPIL: But it`s a little more complicated. You have to pay for the
food now but there`s still going to be more food coming out and you have to
decide who gets it.

This is an issue of all the oil -- the problem here is oil and gas and
fossil fuels. We`re burning it. That`s causing the pollution. That`s why
everything`s heating up.

We have a lot of that stuff in the ground. We can`t burn it all. If we
burn it all the planet will become uninhabitable in many areas.

So now we have to decide, okay, all you countries of the world, who
gets to burn the remaining fuel?

It`s kind of like, we`ve got two bottles of wine coming, but not
everyone gets to drink it.

HAYES: So here`s a useful term. You have like a carbon budget, so
let`s just say for simplicity, there`s a hundred units of carbon left that
we can safely burn, and then the question becomes a classic distributional
question, which is who gets what out of that budget. Right? How much does
Kenya get and how much does Japan get?

DOKOUPIL: So, here`s what`s really scary right now. The pledges in
Paris right now are so minor that America, China, and the EU combined take
up the entire world`s budget in the next three decades.

HAYES: Let`s just look at what emissions look like so people get a

Basically, it`s China, the U.S., and the EU are the sort of biggest
You see India, Russia, Japan. Everyone else in the world that are not named
countries there --

DOKOUPIL: Billions.

HAYES: Billions of people are 30%, right?

So, we`re going to have to figure out a way of both getting
accountability and some sort of distributional justice.

Tony Dokoupil who`s going to Paris. We`ll be checking in with you next
week I suspect.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right

Good evening, Rachel.


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