updated 12/1/2015 11:26:18 AM ET 2015-12-01T16:26:18

Date: November 30, 2015
Guest: Fergus Cullen, Laura Bassett, Bob Cusack

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Does it matter what he says?

Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews back in Washington.

Does the Trump voter out there care if he`s telling the truth or is it
the attitude that he`s selling? When the billionaire says, for example,
that President Obama is a foreigner and therefore constitutionally banned
from the presidency, does the Trump supporter believe that, or does he
simply hate Obama enough to ditto the dishonesty?

When Trump says he saw people in New Jersey cheering the fall of the
trade towers, does the Trump supporter think he`s solid or does he simply
like the guy`s "screw you" attitude to people who try to keep honest track
of such things? And does the very fact that reporters say one thing and
Trump another, that his followers double down in his defense, that media
criticism actually verifies what Trump`s just said?

And what if he makes fun of the reporter`s physical handicap? Is that
every bit as OK as making fun of a female candidate`s face? Are people so
committed to Trump`s nationalist message, they don`t -- or they can`t --
they don`t care what he says as long as he snarls at the big shots while he
says it?

Katy Tur covers the Trump campaign for NBC News. Fergus Cullen is a
former chairman of the New Hampshire Republican Party and author of
"Granite Steps," a new history of the New Hampshire primary -- I got to
read that one -- Howard Fineman -- Howard will read it, too -- Howard
Fineman`s global editorial director of the HuffingtonPost and an MSNBC
political analyst .

On "MEET THE PRESS" yesterday, Trump refused to take back his
statement that he saw thousands -- I love the way he said that, thousands -
- of Muslims in New Jersey cheering the attacks of 9/11. Let`s listen.


CHUCK TODD, MODERATOR, "MEET THE PRESS": Where did you see this?

DONALD TRUMP: Chuck, I saw it on television. So did many other
people. And many...

CHUCK TODD: In Jersey City...

DONALD TRUMP: ... many people -- I`ve had hundreds.

CHUCK TODD: You saw Jersey City...

In the area. I`ve also heard Paterson (ph). Excuse me.


TRUMP: I`ve heard Jersey City. I`ve heard Paterson. It was 14 years
ago. But I saw it on television. I saw clips. And so did many other
people. Now, "The Washington Post" also wrote about tailgate parties!
We`re looking for other articles and we`re looking for other clips. And I
wouldn`t be surprised if we found them, Chuck.

But for some reason, they`re not that easy to come by. I saw it. So
many people saw it, Chuck. And so why would I take it back? I`m not going
to take it back.


MATTHEWS: Well, as "The Washington Post" fact checker reported this
week, or last week, there was video taken overseas, of course, showing
Palestinians on the West Bank celebrating the attacks. While Trump may
have confused that footage in his memory, no video has emerged showing what
Trump (INAUDIBLE) Trump described as happening in New Jersey.

And today, New Jersey governor Chris Christie also told reporters that
it never happened.


September 11. I wasn`t across the river in New York City. I was there.
And not only myself but the state attorney general at the time, John Farmer
(ph), good, smart, you know, Republican, has said the same thing that I`ve
said, that it didn`t happen.

And you know, the worst part of his claim is that he says he saw it on
television. Well, no one has been able to unearth any video of any such
thing happening. If it was widely enough shown on network television in
New York City, you can usually find that video fairly quickly.


MATTHEWS: (INAUDIBLE) back. Let me go right now to Katy Tur on this
because you follow the guy. And I know this is -- you don`t like to go
beyond reporting to interpretation. But when you report and you see people
out there whose mouths are open as they listen to this stuff he puts out,
do they, first of all -- let`s start with something, the original sin of
the guy.

Do they believe that President Obama is a usurper who snuck into this
country illegally from overseas, is not a legal citizen, was born to
somewhere else, to foreign parents, I suppose, and that he somehow snuck
the American presidency away from us?

Do they believe that when they say it to pollsters? Because they do
say it to pollsters.

KATY TUR, NBC CORRESPONDENT: A number of them do believe that. I
wouldn`t say all of them believe that. But I think a lot of them do not
like this president, do not feel that they`ve been representing -- or he`s
been representing their views.

MATTHEWS: Yes, that`s different -- I`m talking about a fact question.
Do they believe he`s a foreign usurper who snuck into the country...

TUR: Some of them do.

MATTHEWS: ... illegally and somehow became president?

TUR: Some of them do. Some of them do. Not all of them, but some of
them do express that and some of them do believe that. I wouldn`t go so
far to say that all of them at Trump rallies believe Obama was born
overseas and that he`s a Muslim and that he`s not out (ph) here (ph) or he
somehow usurped the presidency, as you said.

Some of them believe that, but not all of them do, but I do think most
of them, the vast majority of them, don`t think that he is the president
that they voted for and they don`t think that...

MATTHEWS: Well, of course not. Well, they didn`t vote for him, first
of all.

TUR: Well, they didn`t vote for him. They don`t think he`s
representing their values. And I think...


TUR: ... Donald Trump is going to push back against that.

MATTHEWS: So it`s -- so you think I`m right when I say it`s the
attitude they like, his attitude of complete contempt for the liberal

TUR: It is. And I think it is -- I think it doesn`t really matter
what he says, as you`ve been talking about. I think it`s an unconditional
love they have for him. I think regardless of what Trump says, they`re
going to keep continuing -- they`re going to continue to support him.

Even though the pastors that I spoke with today, some of the pastors,
said it doesn`t matter what he says about Black Lives Matters (sic),
protesters, doesn`t matter what he tweets about crime stats...


TUR: ... that may be bogus. They like him, no matter what, because
they think he`s going to create jobs in this country and they think he`s
going to be a strong leader.


TUR: It`s unconditional love. It`s the kind of thing that you hope
to find in your life, and Donald Trump found it with throngs of supporters
across the country!


MATTHEWS: Anyway, by the way, just to check our own facts, in the
September CNN/Opinion Research poll, 43 percent of Republicans -- not just
Obama -- Trump people, 43 percent of Republicans say they believe President
Obama is a Muslim, just to get that fact, as they (INAUDIBLE)

Howard, it sounds like Erich Siegel (ph) here, "Love means never
having to say you`re sorry."


ANALYST: Well...

MATTHEWS: We grew up with that!

FINEMAN: I covered a Trump rally in South Carolina with Katy, as a
matter of fact, and I think she would agree with me that to some extent,
that rally and all Trump rallies are a little bit like -- they`re a little
bit like rock concerts and they`re a little bit like revival meetings.
They`re secular political revival meetings, where it`s about belief and
it`s about faith that because Donald Trump is willing to say anything, no
matter how obnoxious -- the more obnoxious and the more accusatory it is,
the more they believe in him because they feel culturally shackled. They
feel like they`re in chains.

MATTHEWS: I`m with you. I`m with you.

FINEMAN: And he is the guy who can by the sheer force of will, saying
the most politically incorrect things, saying the most unsupportable

MATTHEWS: Prove something.

FINEMAN: He is such an outsider that he`s in a different reality.

MATTHEWS: OK, let me go to Fergus...

FINEMAN: He`s in a different reality.

MATTHEWS: I take New Hampshire seriously. Maybe not necessarily the
newspaper that just made the endorsement of Chris Christie, but I do take
the state very seriously. It`s of sound mind and body, as far as I can

Will they be put off by a guy making fun of another guy`s physical

FERGUS CULLEN, FMR. CHAIR, N.H. GOP: Sure. Two thirds of the
Republican Party does. And I hope people aren`t under the misimpression
that Donald Trump`s views are shared broadly within the Republican Party.
Look, there`s about a third of the voters who either support him or are at
least entertained by him and think that this is harmless fun.

But two thirds of the party recognizes this is not harmless fun. It`s
doing terrible damage to the Republican Party brand, and they`re not going
to support him in the end. You know, I`m reminded a lot of...

MATTHEWS: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I want to call you on the

CULLEN: ... the 1996 race...

MATTHEWS: I like your speech. I like the attitude, but just the
attitude because the numbers aren`t right because Trump is now leading by 2
to 1 over Rubio, who`s in second place in New Hampshire. So you say they
don`t like him. Yes, you`re right. Technically, 26 percent is only one
quarter, but he`s the leader. How do you explain it in New Hampshire?

CULLEN: Well, you know, back in 1996, Pat Buchanan won the New
Hampshire primary but with 28 percent of the vote because the mainstream
Republican vote was hopelessly fractured between Bob Dole, Lamar Alexander,
and Steve Forbes coming in fourth that year.

But as soon as -- the day after the primary, Bob Dole came downstairs,
reframed the race as a contest between the mainstream and the extreme,
started beating Pat Buchanan 2 to 1 in primary after primary and had the
nomination sewed up. It took Pat Buchanan winning to unite the Republican
Party in favor of Bob Dole at that time.

MATTHEWS: So we got to wait next year or this -- it is next year,
technically -- for Wednesday to know what happened on Tuesday. We can`t go
by election results Tuesday night as to who actually won? I mean, if Trump

CULLEN: Well, it`s going to take more than one...

MATTHEWS: ... the New Hampshire primary, are you going to give that
same speech?

CULLEN: It`s going to take more than one caucus and more than one
primary to nominate a candidate this cycle. And people in New Hampshire...

MATTHEWS: You`re not selling that primary...


MATTHEWS: Sir, you are not selling the Republican primary in New
Hampshire if you say it doesn`t matter.

CULLEN: No, it`s going to winnow the field...

MATTHEWS: And that`s what you`re saying.

CULLEN: ... considerably.


CULLEN: There are going to be good candidates who are going to finish
fifth or sixth...


CULLEN: ... and they`re going to be out of the race after that.


CULLEN: But more than one or two candidates is going to survive New
Hampshire this year, and that`s OK.

MATTHEWS: You must have loved it when Bill Clinton claimed victory up
there and called himself the comeback kid when he came in 8 points behind
Paul Tsongas.

Anyway, in defending his remarks about New Jersey Muslims -- I don`t
know if he ever saw one -- Trump has cited a 2001 article in "The
Washington Post" that stated that law enforcement authorities detained and
questioned a number of people who were allegedly seen celebrating the
attacks. Those allegations were later debunked, and the author of the
piece, Serge Kovaleski, has since said he does not remember any
celebrations actually taking place.

And now Trump has been under fire for appearing -- well, that`s being
put it nice (sic) -- to mock Kovaleski`s physical disability, a condition
that limits the movement of his arms.

Here`s what -- here`s that clip of Trump last Tuesday night.


TRUMP: Now, the poor guy -- you got to see this guy. Oh! I don`t
know what I said! Oh! I don`t remember! He`s going, I don`t remember!
Oh, maybe that`s what I said!


MATTHEWS: Well, in response, Kovaleski told "The Washington Post,"
"The sad part about it is, it didn`t in the slightest bit jar or surprise
me that Donald Trump would do something this low-rent," what a great
phrase, "given his track record."

And "The New York Times" where Kovaleski now works, they issued this
statement. "We`re outraged that he would ridicule the physical appearance
of one of our reporters." Trump on Saturday said he does not know
Kovaleski, even though Kovaleski covered Trump in the `80s and `90s, and he
asked "The New York Times" for an apology. Trump did.


TRUMP: The person has a disability. And the person said, I know him,
I know him, but you know -- and I said, When? In the 1980s. The 1980s.
That`s a long time -- 30, 35 years? That`s a long time ago.

But I don`t -- believe me, I don`t know. Now he`s going, Well, he
knew me and we were on first name -- give me a break. Give me a break.
And the problem is, he`s using what he`s got to such a horrible degree. I
think it`s disgraceful, the way -- and I think "The New York Times,"
frankly, should give me an apology. I do.


TRUMP: I think they should give me -- and I`d love to have the
apology before they go out of business. I would love that.


MATTHEWS: OK. OK. There we have some kind of proof there. Katy,
you`ve watched those arm gestures of Donald Trump all the time. I know
that they`re expansive. They`re reaching out in both direction. They`re
sort of like Bernie Sanders. They both do the same thing -- What am I? Am
I serious? (INAUDIBLE) with me or with me not? He`s doing it all the

In this case, he does this thing. You know, he`s doing this thing
about a guy whose arms are constrained in that way. What`s the general
assessment? Was he making fun of that reporter or not?

TUR: I don`t think anybody in the crowd in South Carolina got that he
could have been making fun of Serge Kovaleski. I think that that was
something that those who knew, who know Serge Kovaleski, saw.

And it wouldn`t be -- if it is true, it wouldn`t be the first time
that he`s been at least accused of mocking somebody`s disability. Back in
the interview I did with him in July, he said that Charles Krauthammer
can`t even buy himself a pair of pants. And this is after Krauthammer
called him a rodeo clown. And Krauthammer is in a wheelchair.


TUR: So he was accused of it back then. So it does say something
that he keeps getting accused of this stuff. At that same rally, he did an
impression of the CNN reporter. So Donald Trump might not want to say
that he`s doing impressions...


TUR: ... of reporters and might not want to say that he remembers
Serge Kovaleski, but I think circumstances point in a different direction,

MATTHEWS: Let me go to Fergus real fast. Do you think Republicans
are any different than Democrats in feeling a little sympathy for people
with handicaps, or are they less sympathetic?

CULLEN: Oh, I think...

MATTHEWS: As a party.

CULLEN: ... absolutely, they are. I mean, Trump`s behavior is
indefensible. It`s outrageous. It`s offensive to lots of people. I think
a lot of responsible, reasonable Republicans are going to start calling him
out publicly on these kinds of things, saying this kind of behavior is not
acceptable. We wouldn`t accept it in an elementary school...

MATTHEWS: OK, Fergus...

CULLEN: ... and we`re not going to accept it in a presidential
candidate, either.

MATTHEWS: Fergus, I really like your wing of the Republican Party.
And Howard, I hope it still exists. Anyway, Howard?

FINEMAN: Just very quickly -- Chris Christie was endorsed by Joe
McQuaid in "The Manchester Union Leader." I know Joe very well. I know
the power of that paper that still remains.

Basically, Christie has been hired by "The Union Leader" as the
prosecutor to try to destroy Donald Trump in New Hampshire. And Christie
will be covered to a fair-thee-well if he does it, if he`s willing to take
on that role. That`s the role he`s been asked to play by "The Union

MATTHEWS: This is interpretation or is this...

FINEMAN: This is my interpretation, knowing Joe and having talked to
him about...

MATTHEWS: Joe will not...

FINEMAN: ... who he picked.

MATTHEWS: He will not do what he often does in continuing to endorse
him day after day after day unless he does that job.

FINEMAN: I think the more coverage -- Christie will get the full
backing and full coverage to the extent he`s willing to do...

MATTHEWS: If he whacks.

FINEMAN: ... what he was picked to do...

MATTHEWS: He has to whack Trump.

FINEMAN: ... because I know that McQuaid doesn`t like Trump, doesn`t
trust Trump...


FINEMAN: ... and thinks he`s a phony.

MATTHEWS: Howard Fineman, this is a contract.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, thank you, Katy Tur. This is -- God, there`s a bit
of news. Whack the guy, or you will lose all your coverage! Anyway, Katy
Tur, love your coverage. Fergus, nice to meet you. I do with that party
that you talk about exists. I hope it does. Anyway, Howard Fineman...

CULLEN: It does.

MATTHEWS: Coming up -- the politics of Planned Parenthood. This is
getting nasty. Did the heated anti-abortion rhetoric on the right
contribute to the deadly shooting at a Colorado clinic? Did it? And if
so, what should we do about it? And that`s ahead.

Plus, 13 of 14 Democratic female senators, women, are standing
alongside Hillary Clinton tonight to show their support for her
presidential bid -- 13 out of 14. Guess who was the holdout? Guess.
Guess. Elizabeth Warren.

And on the Republican side, Chris Christie`s gaining steam up in New
Hampshire -- I guess. He`s still in seventh place. And now Donald Trump
has taken notice. Could Christie be the establishment favorite, as Howard
just said, to beat back Trump, Cruz and the rest of the wild bunch?

And finally, "Let Me Finish" tonight with the stuff dreams are made
of, a 21st century train ride across our country.

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Well, President Obama, of course, is in Paris this week
along with nearly 150 other world leaders with talks under way already to
find a global agreement on climate change. He held meetings with the prime
minister of India and the president of China.

In a speech this morning, the president urged global leaders to get
together as an act of defiance in the wake of those Paris attacks.


Paris for insisting this crucial conference go on, an act of defiance that
proves nothing will deter us from building the future we want for our
children. What greater rejection for those who would tear down our world
than marshaling our best efforts to save it?


MATTHEWS: Well, President Obama also met with Russian president
Vladimir Putin. The two discussed the situation in Syria, as well as
relations with Turkey just days after that country shot down a Russian
fighter jet.

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Well, there`s been potent
political rhetoric leveled at Planned Parenthood, of course, for months.
In the aftermath of the killing of three people at a Colorado Planned
Parenthood clinic on Friday, some question whether words can do more than
just hurt.

The man accused of conducting the rampage -- there he is -- Robert
Lewis Dear, appeared in court this afternoon. His motive is still not
clear, but two law enforcement sources with knowledge of the case told NBC
News that the suspect rambled out -- rambled on about President Obama,
politics and abortion saying, No more baby parts, when he was taken into
custody after the standoff with police.

Here are several GOP presidential candidates` reactions to those who
question whether tough talk on Planned Parenthood might have been related
to the Colorado killings.


of rhetoric that we are seeing from presidential candidates that are
demeaning not only Planned Parenthood but woman who go to Planned
Parenthood, doctors at Planned Parenthood, even the fact that there is safe
and legal abortion in America.


MATTHEWS: Well, the president of Planned Parenthood feels her
organization remains a target and wants the talk tamped down. We just saw
her there. That was Cecile Richards.

Anyway, joining me right now are two Pulitzer Prize-winning columnists
from "The Washington Post" -- both of them, in fact -- Kathleen Parker and
Eugene Robinson, who`s also an MSNBC political analyst.

Let`s talk about this -- first a woman. We`re talking abortion
rights. We`re talking a tragedy that took place at Planned Parenthood. It
seems to me the two things we know, this assailant, killer, went to Planned
Parenthood. He knew where he was going. He went to a particular place.
Most men wouldn`t know where a Planned Parenthood is, unless they looked it
up in the phone book, even if they did that.


MATTHEWS: And, secondly -- and, secondly, they wouldn`t have been
focusing on no more baby parts without some mentally connecting that to
what they just did, kill three people.

Your thoughts.

PARKER: All right, look, Chris, I think he obviously made a
connection and went there to kill people, because, obviously...


PARKER: Well, I don`t know why. And you don`t either.

MATTHEWS: Well, why did he say baby parts?

PARKER: Because he`s been hearing about these videos which showed
that they were harvesting certain parts that would be used for fetal
research, tissues to be used for research.

MATTHEWS: No, they were to be put on sale. That is what the video

PARKER: That`s what the first couple of videos indicated when they
talked about, how much can you get for this piece of flesh or how much can
you get for this...


MATTHEWS: He could have gotten the idea as a reasonable viewer that
Planned Parenthood is in the business of selling...


PARKER: He`s not a reasonable person. He`s deranged.

MATTHEWS: But a reasonable person could have gotten that idea from
that video.

PARKER: Absolutely. But most people don`t go out and shoot people
because of it.

And, also, by the way, if we are going to go that route, then we have
to also concede that violent movies make people commit violence at higher
rates, that pornography results in higher rape statistics.

MATTHEWS: Does it?

PARKER: Well, beats me. But we have never done a cause and effect
with those things. We decline to do that because we don`t think things are
quite that simple, that there are a multitude of factors.


MATTHEWS: Because nobody ever rapes somebody because somebody just
saw a movie.


PARKER: I know you want to blame the Republicans for this.


MATTHEWS: I`m asking about what facts we know.


PARKER: All we know is that he did go into the Planned Parenthood
with intent and he did kill people.


MATTHEWS: And he said afterwards, no more baby parts.

PARKER: Well, we heard that. Did we hear anything else he said?

I`m not defending this guy. Please do not put me in the position of
defending him or any of the rhetoric I think is overheated.


MATTHEWS: You say it`s wrong to assume causality.

PARKER: I don`t think you can assume -- well, we don`t assume
anything, because we are journalists and we don`t do that. But you cannot
say because of A, then B. There is more to the equation.

MATTHEWS: OK. Gene, your thoughts?


PARKER: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Be careful here.

ROBINSON: ... in that we cannot...

PARKER: Another rational person.

ROBINSON: We know four words of what apparently was a much longer
soliloquy he gave to the police, if indeed he was ranting about abortion
and he was ranting about President Obama and whatever, as there was some

Then we still can`t draw a straight line, but maybe a crooked line.
Maybe certainly there was influence there. One thing we do know is, he had
a gun. We know that this guy seems to be wacko and he had a gun.

And it does, I think, implicate once again gun laws and gun policy in
this country.

PARKER: Well, if we want to talk about toning down the rhetoric
across the board, then we absolutely have an argument to make on that
count, but across the board, when it comes to immigrants and refugees and
every -- a number of subjects that have suddenly become Kryptonite for the
political arena.

It`s -- there is a definite case to be made for that. But I think,
Chris, you have to be very careful, because the next cause and effect is
the Republicans caused this man to be crazy and to go kill people.


MATTHEWS: Well, that is a partisan argument.

I think when people would walk away with is -- just a few years ago in
this city, we saw the Holocaust Memorial attacked by a guy who shot the
guard on his way in, killed him. We can assume that guy had an attitude
about Jews.

PARKER: Totally.

MATTHEWS: See, you can make that assumption.

PARKER: Right.

MATTHEWS: When you go after a Planned Parenthood facility, a clinic,
you can assume he had a certain attitude about Planned Parenthood.

PARKER: Oh, I think that`s unquestionable.

MATTHEWS: And you can assume he had certain information, accurate or
not, about what they do there.

And his information, which he spilled out right there on the scene
apparently after he was picked up, was that they sell baby parts. This is
to me not causality, but clear, obviously, connection, whatever you want to
call it.

ROBINSON: Yes, you can call it a connection. You can now -- was
rhetoric a part of his motivation? Was it just seeing the videos? Was it
his anti-abortion views or was he a person who was allowed....


MATTHEWS: If I were a prosecutor in this case, I would bring up those
words in court.

ROBINSON: Of course you would.

PARKER: Of course you would.


ROBINSON: Of course you would.


MATTHEWS: This is court. Anyway, here`s some -- I`m sorry, Gene.

ROBINSON: No, no, no, I was going to make a further connection on the
gun issue, which again we kind of just skip past.

But the gun issue is there. And then we can get into rhetoric. For
example, we can get into the position that Second Amendment absolutists
would have, apparently, now that everybody ought to be armed and that`s how
you stop a guy with a gun, right?

So, are they now going to argue that abortionists should all have


PARKER: No, for the record, I want to say I agree with Gene here,
too. But, listen, we have to keep guns out of the hands of deranged


MATTHEWS: It`s hard to pick them out when they live in mountain

PARKER: Well, you can certainly do background checks.


MATTHEWS: This guy lived pretty much on his lone -- anyway, here are
some of the Republican presidential candidates. They are quite not as
pleasant as these two people.



MATTHEWS: I don`t get this. It must be a "Washington Post" quest
here -- anyway, that the rhetoric against Planned Parenthood might have
been connected to the Colorado killings. Let`s watch.


rhetoric districted at anyone from any source is too much. It`s something
that we need to get away from.

We have to stop allowing ourselves to be pushed into different corners
and then throwing hateful barbs at each other.

left to immediately begin demonizing the messenger because they don`t agree
with the message. The vast majority of Americans agree what Planned
Parenthood is doing is wrong.

unfortunate to see so many folks in the press bending over backwards to try
to use this horrible crime to advance a political agenda.

This man is a despicable murderer and he should be punished to the
full extent of the law. But none of that changes the reality that Planned
Parenthood is in the business of buying and selling the body parts of
unborn children. None of that changes the reality that Planned Parenthood
was caught on video apparently committing a pattern of felonies.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, I want to get to Cruz there before I do anything
else. Cruz says they`re in the business of selling and buying -- buying
and selling body parts.


PARKER: Yes. Well, that is completely false.

MATTHEWS: You think that might encourage somebody, some guy out in
the hills right now who thinks like this guy to do something, or not?

PARKER: I think that somebody who is inclined to do that sort of
thing might say, well, look, he`s a smart guy, he`s running for president,
he`s justifying it.

MATTHEWS: Why is he saying it? Why did Cruz just say that?

PARKER: I don`t know. I can`t even really fathom.


MATTHEWS: Does he believe it? Buying and selling.


ROBINSON: Buying and selling. Buying and selling.

PARKER: I think he`s smarter than that. Surely he Googles and he
would have to find out that that is a falsehood.

And, of course, Carly Fiorina did that sort of exaggerated description
during one of the debates. It was just too horrible. I didn`t even want
to -- I don`t even really want to repeat it.

ROBINSON: And then Ben Carson, of course, who is against all harsh
rhetoric, referred to Syrian refugees as rabid dogs.


PARKER: It was an analogy, I think.


MATTHEWS: I got to make this point.

What is great about this country is that even people, the most pro-
life people in the world -- and really think there is a difference,
essential difference between abortion and gunning people down, essential

PARKER: Of course.

MATTHEWS: And they do believe it. And, therefore, they all see this
as a tragedy.

PARKER: Of course.

MATTHEWS: But some people`s words are encouraging this kind of

And I`m sorry that -- I heard it in the guy`s voice. I`m not as kind
as you, Gene. I heard him say no more baby parts. To me, that was motive.
And if I went into court, I would nail this guy -- anyway, thank -- on hate
crimes. Anyway, well, it`s already murder. What do you need a hate crime
for this case?


PARKER: Well, we are not in court. I thought we were talking
politic. And politics is taking us into a realm that I think is off

MATTHEWS: I think this thing -- the people who are pro-life in this
case jumped too quickly in attacking what they thought the liberal media
was going to do. Let the liberal media blame the bad guy and the enemies
of Planned Parenthood first and then attack.

Don`t go first, because when you go first, you make people think, like
this guy, you`re enjoying it, like Carly Fiorina seems to be.

Thank you, Kathleen, for coming on.

PARKER: Thank you, Chris.

MATTHEWS: And, Gene, I don`t have to thank you. You`re always here.


MATTHEWS: Thank you.


PARKER: That`s right. You don`t pay me.


MATTHEWS: Oh, here it is. Ladies and gentlemen, has everybody at
MSNBC heard what she is complaining about?


MATTHEWS: Coming up...

PARKER: When you work for free, they have to say thank you.


MATTHEWS: Coming up, every single Democratic female senator endorsed
Hillary Clinton but one, but one. Her name is Elizabeth Warren. She did
not endorse Hillary today. It means something. What does it mean?

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

At this hour, Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Clinton is
winning the endorsement of 13 out of the 14 female Democratic U.S.
senators. The one Democrat who is holding out, Massachusetts Senator
Elizabeth Warren. There she is.

Warren has so far declined to officially support Clinton`s run for the
White House. Well, the Massachusetts Democrat was also absent from
Hillary`s rally in her hometown of Boston yesterday, where Clinton received
the all-out endorsement of the city`s mayor, Marty Walsh, who revved up
students and labor unions alike.

Let`s watch.


we stop talking about having a woman as president. It`s time we go out and
make it a reality.


WALSH: Get your sledge hammers ready, because we have got a glass
ceiling to demolish.


WALSH: Ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, I`m proud to
introduce my friend and yours, a champion for America and the next
president of the United States of America, Hillary Clinton!



MATTHEWS: That`s pure Boston.

Anyway, Laura Bassett is a political reporter for The Huffington Post.
And Bob Cusack is editor in chief of "The Hill" newspaper.

The two of you know your stuff.

You know what is amazing? When I asked for the numbers today, you
know, Clinton, Secretary Clinton, is killing Bernie Sanders in
Massachusetts 54-29. Why doesn`t Elizabeth Warren, the senior senator, pop
up and say, yes, I`m with Hillary? She`s going to be the nominee probably.

What does she got to loose?

LAURA BASSETT, THE HUFFINGTON POST: I think it`s about leverage. I
think that Elizabeth Warren`s power is her ability to bring the Democratic
candidates to the left, especially Hillary. And I think, if she comes out
and endorses Hillary, then it gives Hillary the freedom to sort of drift
back over to the center, where I think she is more comfortable being. And
this way, she is still beholden to what Elizabeth Warren wants.

MATTHEWS: Well, if Bernie can`t do it, why can Elizabeth do it,
because Bernie is not pulling her over that far to the left, occasionally,
but not -- everybody still thinks of her as a centrist.

Maybe -- I don`t want to get Hillary Clinton in trouble, a moderate, a
center-left -- what can we say anymore?

You tell me. What is acceptable now in the face of Elizabeth Warren?
If she is not going to support you, do you try to get her support, or do
you say, I`m sorry, I will live without you?

BOB CUSACK, "THE HILL": I think, Chris, she is going to support
Hillary Clinton, but not for months.

She wants to push Clinton on policy, on expanding Social Security, on
banking policy, banking law that President Clinton eradicated. She wants
to put it back in. She wants to push Hillary to the left.

And Elizabeth Warren is a force in the Democratic Party. She has a
huge following.

MATTHEWS: OK. Back in 1960, Rockefeller, the moderate Republican,
governor of New York, he called Nixon up to Fifth Avenue or where it was,
to their apartment -- his apartment, one of his many places he could live
if he felt like it, and dictated terms to Nixon.

CUSACK: Right.

MATTHEWS: If you want my endorsement, you got to do this thing.

Is she going to be that dramatic?

CUSACK: I think she will. I think they`re going to get a room at one
point and she is going to say, this is what I want.

MATTHEWS: And they will come out with a...


CUSACK: And she will have a great speaking slot at the convention.
The party will unite. And the party is mostly united. I mean, Hillary
Clinton has 132 endorsements already.


MATTHEWS: ... formal communique, like a meeting between Vladimir
Putin and Erdogan. Is it going to be like that, where she says, OK, I will
back her now? She says she is going to do something about breaking up the
banks, she`s going to do some things about Glass-Steagall or whatever?

BASSETT: I think Hillary already said she wasn`t going to renew
Glass-Steagall. So, that`s kind of a lost fight on Elizabeth Warren`s

But I do think Elizabeth is going to wait until the last minute, maybe
when she can maximize her impact of her endorsement, the night before the
New Hampshire primaries, for instance, and then come out and make a

MATTHEWS: Well, in 2013, all the Senate`s Democratic women signed a
letter encouraging Hillary Clinton to actually run for president, including
Elizabeth Warren. So, she wanted her to run.

Is this like Nancy and Charlie Brown? I really will hold up the
football? Anyway, when -- Lucy, rather.

When ABC`s George Stephanopoulos asked Warren of -- Hillary was her
candidate -- was her candidate a few months later, Warren praised her.


Democratic women, I should say, of the Senate urged Hillary Clinton to run.
And I hope she does.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: You hope she does. And if she does,
she is your candidate? You endorse her?


WARREN: Hillary is terrific.


MATTHEWS: "Hillary is terrific."

But in February of `15, that`s this year, Warren told MSNBC that she
wanted to wait and see what Hillary wanted to run on.


WARREN: I want to hear what she wants to run on, and what she says
she wants to do. That`s what campaigns are supposed to be about.


MATTHEWS: OK. What`s happening with the Democratic Party right now?
Is it a united party? The Republican Party seems to be all over the place
right now with the renegades running against what is left of the

Is Hillary basically the face of the Democratic Party right now?
Women made it clear today, 13 out of 14, she`s it.

BASSETT: And 13 out of 14, yes, three-fourths of the Senate
Democrats, two-thirds of the House Democrats.

It`s really clear that Hillary Clinton is the establishment candidate.
She still needs to woo young voters. She still needs to woo the grassroots
supporters that Elizabeth Warren has. But in terms of being the
establishment candidate, absolutely. And she is...


MATTHEWS: You think young women are as aware of how important it is -
- I`m putting a judgment on this -- that we have a woman president finally?
Are they as into it as the people who fought through the ERA battles and
all the other battles?

BASSETT: Absolutely.

I think, with Planned Parenthood under attack right now, I think
feminism is absolutely having a moment. And I think young women are
extremely excited about the idea of a female president.

MATTHEWS: What do you think?

CUSACK: Oh, listen, demographics favor the Democrats.

Hillary Clinton, a lot of Democrats say privately they are not that
excited about Hillary Clinton, but, overall, they think she can win,
especially when you look at the Republican field, which is not united.

MATTHEWS: I think she is being helped by what`s happening on the
crazy side. No, it has been crazy. I mean Trump. We will talk more about
Trump. We must.

Anyway, Laura Bassett, it`s great to have you on.

Thank you, Bob Cusack.

Up next -- I do read your papers.

Up next, Chris Christie earns a key endorsement up in New Hampshire.
But is the New Jersey governor angry enough to capture Trump`s voter base
or is he just too liberal?

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.



MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

It`s been a year of the nonpolitician in the Republican presidential
contest so far. Will it be a primary sweep this winter by them?

Right now, just two months from the Iowa caucuses and the New
Hampshire primary, the hell raisers are running high in Iowa. Trump leads
the polling averages by seven points over Ben Carson, who is fading. Ted
Cruz is now within striking distance. If these guys sweep the Iowa
caucuses in the first primary in New Hampshire, that meaning Cruz in Iowa,
Trump in New Hampshire, it could be the death knell for the Republican
establishment, don`t you think?

Trump holds a double-digit lead in New Hampshire polling averages
right now. Rubio is rising. New Hampshire`s biggest paper right now has
endorsed Chris Christie of New Jersey. Is New Hampshire the Republican
Party`s Alamo, the last chance to stop, dare I say get them a real

Anyway, I`m joined right now by people who are going to tell me that.
The HARDBALL round table tonight, Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher, the
"Time Magazine`s" Jay Newton-Small, and American Conservative Union
chairman Matt Schlapp.

You`re the expert, Matt. It seems New Hampshire always played a role.
Sure, Iowa is a little bit religious, evangelical, even a bit home
schooling in its attitude towards government, very much against it. New
Hampshire is the rock, ribbed Republican type. Conservative, lean to the
right, but not over the fence, not over the wall.


MATTHEWS: But is it going to play that role this time and slow down
the move to the hard right?

SCHLAPP: I think it plays a huge role this time, because I think your
premise is right that if Donald Trump or Ben Carson grab these first two
states or someone else like Ted Cruz grabs Iowa, the insiders, as I like to
call `em, are going to be worried about that result. New Hampshire is
really their place to prove it.

MATTHEWS: Because if you don`t win New Hampshire, you skip over to
South Carolina in the south where the hard right, religious conservatives,
libertarians, whatever you call them this week, who don`t like government

JAY NEWTON-SMALL, TIME MAGAZINE: Yours -- I mean, you have three legs
of the Republican school. And that`s what the three primaries are. And
it`s social conservatives in Iowa, it`s fiscal conservatives in New
Hampshire and it`s defense hawks in South Carolina.

SCHLAPP: I agree with you.

NEWTON-SMALL: But what New Hampshire has given us the last two cycles
is, they picked pretty out there candidate. In the Iowa caucuses, you got
Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee in `08 and `12. Then they`ve given us Mitt
Romney and John McCain. They`ve actually picked the nominee, both times in
New Hampshire.

This time around, the field is so muddied on both sides, you know,
it`s like two separate primaries.

MATTHEWS: The worry was, Ron Brownstein wrote this in "The L.A.
Times," I was just other there, that the worry by the centrist Republicans,
the non-far right Republicans, we all call them, was that they would divide
up their vote. Jeb Bush would get some votes because of family history,
Chris Christie would get some because he`s the big east candidate, he`s the
East Coast guy, and Kasich would get votes because he`ll be up there every
minute between now and February.

Now, they worry. So, now, the newspaper endorsed Chris Christie with
the hope getting at least one guy coming out, a contestant from New
Hampshire who is not a right winger.

done such a great job predicting in the past. I think two of --


SCHLAPP: Two of eight. Two of eight.


MATTHEWS: Two of nine actually.


BELCHER: But I think also these endorsements --

MATTHEWS: Newt Gingrich didn`t win.

BELCHER: Some of these endorsements aren`t necessarily helpful,
particularly when you look at what`s --

MATTHEWS: Is it like chicken soup, it can`t hurt?

BELCHER: It can`t hurt, but it doesn`t necessarily help. Quite
frankly, if I`m Donald Trump, I don`t want union endorsement because that`s
part of the establishment. If I`m running as an outsider, the last thing I
want is one of these establishment conservative sort of newspapers, you
know, endorse me because I`m the outsider, it goes against it.

I`m going to differ a little bit with my friends here on the panel. I
think Donald Trump is going to turn South. You look at his numbers in
South Carolina, he is running further ahead in South Carolina. I think
he`s going to do really well in South Carolina, because when you also talk
about the South, you`re also talking about a part of the country where
xenophobia and racial division has been --

MATTHEWS: So, his anti-Muslim commentary about the New Jersey Muslims
who rooted for 9/11, he is making fun of a best east New Yorker --

BELCHER: With a lie, it`s a just a flat out lie.

MATTHEWS: -- this big New York reporter, he can make fun of him
physically because he`s from "The New York Times", claiming Obama, the
first black president, is actually a foreigner, that`s going to help him
down South.

BLECHER: That doesn`t hurt him down South. Absolutely, it`s going to
help him down South. And if you look at his numbers in South Carolina --

MATTHEWS: Fact checks don`t mean anything. Fact checks inside the
newspaper don`t seem to bother anybody, do they?

NEWTON-SMALL: No, I mean, it`s more like the anti-immigrant, I think
Cornell is absolutely right here, the anti-immigrant, the anti-Hispanic
stuff is really going to -- I mean, that plays amazingly well, bizarrely in
South Carolina, where it`s a right to work state, and a lot of people feel
very conscious about their jobs and there`s a lot of like job security

And look at Jim DeMint in South Carolina. He`s like he was basically,
you know, re-elected his entire second campaign on like an anti-immigration

MATTHEWS: But Lindsey is pretty good on it. Lindsey is very good.
He voted for the Senate bill.

NEWTON-SMALL: Yes. No, Lindsey is --

MATTHEWS: He voted for the whole schmiel. He wanted it to go
together. He backed comprehensive immigration reform. He had a lot of
guts to do that, I thought.

NEWTON-SMALL: Absolutely, but he`s also like the rare bird, right?
He`s the --

SCHLAPP: I don`t think it`s that rare.

NEWTON-SMALL: No, there are sections in South Carolina party --


SCHLAPP: I worked for George W. Bush. If you look at what Donald
Trump is saying, he`s saying everybody has to go home and the good ones
could come back. Under George W. Bush, we called it a touchback.
Everybody had to go home and file their paperwork. And the ones that were,
you know, at the benefits to society, and work and everything else were
expedited. It`s really not that difficult.

BELCHER: Here`s a problem. George W. Bush, God bless him, he
couldn`t win the Republican primary today.

SCHLAPP: OK, we`ll stop.

BELCHER: What he said about immigration, how is he going to win the
Republican primary? George Bush made the same statement --


SCHLAPP: You didn`t listen to what I said. There is more the same
what these candidates are saying. People like Donald Trump is --


MATTHEWS: Let me tell you, we can agree that George W. Bush couldn`t
win after taking us down that rabbit hole in Iraq.


MATTHEWS: The roundtable is staying with us.

Up next, these three tell me something I don`t know.

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Mark your calendars for Tuesday, January 12th, it`s not
that far off, in 2016. That`s coming, too. President Obama will give his
final State of the Union Address that night. That`s the 12th of January.

And I`ll be back -- by the way, it will be before the Iowa caucuses
held on February 1st. It`s the earliest date since 1977, an address by the
president. That was President Ford back then who also spoke on January

It`s a very early State of the Union. I guess Obama wants to have the
full year ahead of him, his last.

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: We are back with the HARDBALL round table. I love to be
back here.

Cornell, tell me something I don`t know.

BELCHER: I think early on there was a lot of hand wringing about the
Obama coalition and a lot of conventional Democrats went in saying, you
know what, we`re not going to need, you know, 95 percent of that coalition
because Hillary`s going to do so much better with white votes, particularly
white women. If you look at the Kaiser poll that recently came out on race
relations, it`s clear, we are not becoming less racially polarized as a
country. I think there`s going to be a lot of rethinking among
conventional Democrats about quite frankly we`re not going to necessarily
do better among whites than what Kerry (ph) and Obama did --

MATTHEWS: So Hillary won`t get that Appalachian white woman,
southwestern Pennsylvania? She won`t get her?


BELCHER: She won`t do remarkably better among white women. If you
look at sort of how the polarization is, it`s kind of hard to make an
argument she`s going to do markedly better among white voters.

MATTHEWS: I think some of those people identify with the old Hillary
from Arkansas. Maybe they identify now. I don`t know.

NEWTON-SMALL: So, in 2011, I did a profile of Paul Ryan for "Time
Magazine", and I went with him to the Racine County Fair where he competed
in a goat milking contest, which he does every year at the Racine County

He always loses to the milk maids and the beauty queens who are very
good at milking goats. But he`s really competitive. And so every year, he
really works on his strategy and how to best milk a goat. And I was
chatting with him on Friday, and he was really excited to tell me that this
year, he actually won his goat-milking contest.

MATTHEWS: Is it that goat smell on him afterward? The smelly goat

NEWTON-SMALL: But it`s important because it`s a swing seat, right?
All politics is local.

MATTHEWS: OK, 30 seconds.

SCHLAPP: Chris Christie`s on a roll. He had his best three weeks of
online small dollar donors, a lot of money coming in. And the phones are
off the hook because "The Union Leader" endorsement has got a lot more
elected officials coming his way.

MATTHEWS: What`s with the white shirts?

SCHLAPP: You`ve got to talk to him about his fashion.

MATTHEWS: Why is he always wearing white shirts?

Anyway, thank you, Cornell Belcher. Thank you, Jay Newton-Small. And
thank you for the goat news, and, Matt Schlapp.

When we return -- I didn`t know that -- let me finish with the stuff
dreams are made of. A 21st century train ride across the U.S. of A.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with the stuff that dreams are made

It`s of an America where you and I can get on a train and ride across
our beautiful country, seeing the rivers and prairies, the mountains and
wide open plains, the small towns where the school buses stop at the
tracks. And you can go downtown right from your train car, where you see
people`s faces and enjoy the shared sight and sound and look of being an

Well, last week I did something I thought of doing for a long time --
cutting across the United States by train. I wanted to see if you could
still do it the way you used to in the days before jet airliners, before
the North American continent itself became flyover country between Gotham
and Tinseltown.

Well, starting the Sunday before Thanksgiving, eight days ago, my
hardy son Thomas and I headed off to join Kathleen and Caroline for a
family get-together out West with our other son Michael, his wife Sarah,
Julia, and Brendan.

And we went by Amtrak. It was great.

I want to share with you now what we saw out the window.

First the stunning sunsets along the Hudson as we headed north to
Albany -- the amazing colors looking west from the Empire State. Then,
those snowy scenes from Ohio as we headed to Chicago following the old
route of the glamorous 20th century line that used to take movie stars and
other VIPs from their first leg from Broadway to Hollywood. I love the
scene of the local school bus -- there it is -- waiting at the rail
crossing in South Bend, Indiana, home of Notre Dame.

Coming out of Chicago Monday morning, we boarded the Southwest Chief
to Los Angeles beginning with a great close-up look of the city`s western
suburbs. We woke up Tuesday morning -- there it is -- to the golden glow
of New Mexico and wide vistas of the American West, including a climb to
7,000 feet and a stop at a classic town at the foot of the mountain.

Well, someday I want this trip throughout the heart of America to be
there for all of us on a train that goes as fast as those in Europe and
Asia, as fast as our pioneer ancestors would have loved to go and would if
they could have combined their gumption and aspirations with what we in the
early 21st century have in know-how.

I`ve spoken a great deal about how I would love our country to reunite
itself by rail to bring back the rail heads of St. Louis and Kansas City
and Albuquerque and all those great towns in between.

We`re too much a bicoastal country today, too much the liberal country
on the coasts, the conservative country in the middle. We`re not talking
to each other. We`re not living in the same country. You don`t have a
great conversation when one guy`s sitting on a tractor and you`re watching
a movie at 39,000 feet.

On a train, on today`s Amtrak, you at least get to see out the window
the real faces and real lives as you go from New York to Los Angeles and
the folks boarding or getting off at the next stop can tell you what life`s
really like out there. Lincoln did it during the civil war. Can`t we do
it better a century and a half later?

That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.


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