updated 2/16/2005 2:51:45 PM ET 2005-02-16T19:51:45

Guest: Bob Berkowitz, Susan Shapiro Barash, Tony DeLorenzo, Judith Brandt

ANNOUNCER:  MSNBC REPORTS: “Your Cheatin‘ Heart.”  From office hook-ups...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RANDY BROOKS, CHEATED ON HIS WIFE:  It‘s all about ego.

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ANNOUNCER:  ... to barroom pick-ups...

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  My ring comes right off.

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ANNOUNCER:  ... to Internet dial-ups.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  It was an emotional need that was definitely not being met in my home.

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ANNOUNCER:  Is monogamy becoming a myth?

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DR. IAN KERNER, SEX THERAPIST AND AUTHOR:  In many cases, there is sexual boredom at home.

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ANNOUNCER:  Wayward wives and home-wrecking husbands.  What‘s behind our growing national fling with infidelity?

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I felt so guilty that I couldn‘t even go to church.

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ANNOUNCER:  Is the love of your life finding true romance in the arms of another?  Tonight, the telltale signs of a straying spouse.

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SUSAN SHADER SMITH, “UNDRESSING INFIDELITY”:  I love my children and I love my life, but I‘m still tempted.

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ANNOUNCER:  Plus, meet a private detective to who makes it his business to uncover your private affairs and a confessed adulteress who wrote the book of rules to avoid flirting with disaster.

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UNIDENTIFIED PRODUCER:  So you mean to tell me when you go out, you take your wedding band off all the time?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  All the time.

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ANNOUNCER:  Tonight, to love, honor and betray.

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WENDY ALDEN ROGERS, HAD EXTRAMARITAL AFFAIR:  It was, like, wow!

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ANNOUNCER:  Now, live from MSNBC world headquarters, Alex Witt.

ALEX WITT, HOST:  Good evening.  It‘s the day after Valentine‘s day, and that may not seem like the best time to ask, but is your spouse cheating on you?  Before you answer, consider this.  A recent poll from the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago found that 22 percent of married men and 13 percent of married women admitted cheating.  And those are just the people who admit to it.  So that means a lot of you are cheating or being cheated on.  Tonight, we‘re going to go behind closed doors to find out just who‘s cheating and why.

First, married men on the make.  What makes a husband cross the line? 

Here‘s NBC‘s Natalie Morales.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NATALIE MORALES, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over):  In “American Beauty,” Kevin Spacey‘s way out of a unhappy marriage is his vivid imagination and a blossoming teen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP - “AMERICAN BEAUTY”)

KEVIN SPACEY, ACTOR:  Spectacular.

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MORALES:  In “Love Actually,” it‘s not love actually but temptation from an overly flirtatious secretary...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP - “LOVE ACTUALLY”)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  (UNINTELLIGIBLE) dance with the boss.

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MORALES:  ... that leads Alan Rickman‘s character to cheat.  His wife, played by Emma Thompson, slowly discovers his betrayal.

One too many women have been there before.  So is temptation all it takes to make men stray?  To find out, we sent a female producer undercover to try to seduce married or otherwise taken men.

UNIDENTIFIED PRODUCER:  So you‘re the married man?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  She‘ll never know.  My ring comes right off.

UNIDENTIFIED PRODUCER:  What do you?  No.  No.  No.  Let me see your ring.  Let me see your wedding band.  So you mean to tell me you go out and you take your wedding band off all the time?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  All the time.

MORALES:  What we discovered is not what most women want to hear.  Of the 10 guys our producer approached, 6 seemed a little more than interested, leading us to ask, What makes men cheat?

UNIDENTIFIED PRODUCER:  And she‘ll never find out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Never find out.  She‘s home pregnant.  She‘ll never know.

RANDY BROOKS, CHEATED ON HIS WIFE:  It was nothing to do with her, but it was definitely to do with me.

MORALES:  Randy Brooks got the so-called seven-year itch.  He cheated on his now ex-wife right under her nose.  In fact, the affair started when they were out at dinner.

BROOKS:  I went to the restroom, and I noticed a waitress was, like, looking at me and stuff like that.  This was the beginning.  And I took her phone number because she offered it.  And I sat down like nothing happened.  I was thinking in my mind, like, Oh, my God.  I‘m slick.  I‘m good.

MORALES (on camera):  So that‘s kind of a little bit of an ego trip for you?

BROOKS:  Yes, it‘s all about ego.

MORALES (voice-over):  When it comes to infidelity, Randy has plenty of company.  Dr. Ian Kerner is a sex therapist and author in New York.

DR. IAN KERNER, SEX THERAPIST AND AUTHOR:  In terms of my research and my client base, I would say it‘s closer to one out of two or one out of three, so 30 percent to 50 percent.  But here‘s something interesting.  Everyone defines infidelity differently.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  I did not have sexual relations with that woman.

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MORALES:  So what is cheating to most men now?

KERNER:  Well, I think to most men, cheating is having intercourse, sex with another woman.  I think if he‘s holding hands with a woman at a bar or, you know, finds himself kissing or necking a little, I don‘t—I think a lot of guys wouldn‘t say that‘s not—I think a lot of guys would say that‘s not cheating.

MORALES:  That is shocking!

UNIDENTIFIED PRODUCER:  And every time you‘re on a business trip, you cheat on your wife?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I‘d like to try and cheat on her every time I go on a business trip.

MORALES:  Let‘s be blunt.  How much what drives men to cheat has to do with sex versus emotional fulfillment?

KERNER:  I think it can be both.  I think, you know, in many cases, there is sexual boredom at home.

UNIDENTIFIED PRODUCER:  How many girls have you slept with since you‘ve been here for the week?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Oh, what‘s tonight?

UNIDENTIFIED PRODUCER:  Tonight‘s Thursday.  So you‘ve been here four nights.  How many different girls have you had sex with?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Three.

UNIDENTIFIED PRODUCER:  Three girls?  So I‘d be your fourth girl you‘d have sex with, that you cheated on your wife with?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes.

KERNER:  But they also cheat for emotion.  And they also cheat for the experience of being loved.

MORALES:  You‘re, I know, in a relationship now.  Do you believe that once a cheater, always a cheater?

BROOKS:  I believe for the first time since my wife and I split up that I‘m ready for a relationship.

MORALES:  So you‘re a different person now?

BROOKS:  I know I am.

MORALES:  So if a woman tried to give you her phone number at Starbucks now, would you take it?

BROOKS:  I want to say no, but unfortunately, honesty requires me to say I probably would.

KERNER:  I think that once a cheater always a cheater, unless you really commit in your relationship to a higher level of communication in that relationship.  I think communication is the essence.  I think when it comes to talking about sex, when it comes to talking about our relationships, we don‘t want to go there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WITT:  And that was NBC‘s Natalie Morales.  So the question is, Why do men cheat?  My guest has some answers.  He‘s Bob Berkowitz, clinical sexologist and contributing editor to “Complete Woman” magazine.  Good evening.  Thank you for being here.

BOB BERKOWITZ, CLINICAL SEXOLOGIST:  It‘s good to be here, Alex.

WITT:  It‘s the question: Why?

BERKOWITZ:  Well, you know, I think that men cheat for some of the same reasons that women do: because they‘re not getting their needs filled at home, and so they‘re looking for another woman to validate them, to make them feel better about themselves, to give them the attention that they say they‘re not getting from their wives.  Surely, for some, the reason—it‘s purely sexual.  For whatever reason, maybe their wife has stopped having sex with them, maybe they‘re not having the kind of sex that they‘d like.  And so they‘re going to seek the comfort and holding, kissing of another woman.

WITT:  You saw that guy, Randy, in that piece.  And he really talked about it being his ego that needed to be stroked.

BERKOWITZ:  Yes.  You know, that‘s a—not a nice way of putting it.  But I would put it in a different way.  I think that guys are looking for validation.  I think that women vastly underestimate how much men want the approval of women.  And when men don‘t get that from their wives—not an excuse, incidentally—they will seek it from another woman.

WITT:  Is it an epidemic among men?

BERKOWITZ:  I don‘t think it‘s an epidemic.  I mean, I—you had the statistic before that 22 percent of men are cheating.  And first of all, what—how do you define cheating?  I think that men and women often define it very differently.  A man, for example, will say he had cybersex with somebody who he‘s never met, never going to meet, doesn‘t really know...

WITT:  Which he‘s not going to count as being sex, right?

BERKOWITZ:  He doesn‘t think that‘s cheating because he never had any kind of physical relationship with her.

WITT:  But a woman‘s going to disagree?

BERKOWITZ:  But a woman might disagree.

WITT:  Right.

BERKOWITZ:  Or let me give you another example.  A man has a colleague at work, and they become very close friends.  And he starts sharing very intimate, you know, secrets about their relationship or inner stuff about him.  And they never touch.  They never hold hands.  They never kiss, never do anything like that.  He thinks that‘s fine.  His wife may think that‘s cheating because there‘s an emotional component to it—not necessarily a physical one, but an emotional component.  That‘s the difference between men and women in that regard.

WITT:  But—OK, so guys do it for the physical gratification, for the most part?

BERKOWITZ:  Some do, but not necessarily.  I think a lot of guys are looking for some kind of emotional support that they say they‘re not getting at home.

WITT:  OK.

BERKOWITZ:  And sometimes it is physical, of course.

WITT:  Here‘s a question.  Can a man truly, deeply care for a woman, have sex with her and then go out and have sex without meaning for someone else?

BERKOWITZ:  Yes.  Some men can definitely compartmentalize.  We had Bill Clinton on here before.  I think that‘s probably a good example.  I think he truly loves his wife.

WITT:  Do you really?  That—I‘m not talking about Bill Clinton.  I don‘t want go there.  But what I do want to go is, does a man really care for a woman...

BERKOWITZ:  I have talked...

WITT:  ... and sleep with her...

BERKOWITZ:  I have...

WITT:  ... and go on and have sex with someone else?

BERKOWITZ:  I have talked to men who‘ve told me they have a great marriage.  They love their wives.  And yet they will go out and cheat.  It‘s something that they say they can‘t control.  Of course, they can, but in their minds, they can‘t.  Those are the guys that you‘ve got to really be careful about.  Those are the guys that it doesn‘t matter what the wife does, he‘s going to go out and cheat.

WITT:  OK.  So what are the signs that someone needs to look and say, Oh, a guy‘s cheating?

BERKOWITZ:  You know, I think that most wives know their husbands very well, and they know something is off.  They can‘t quite put their finger on it, but they know something is wrong.  And I can‘t give you a list and say, you know, If he does this or doesn‘t do that, he‘s definitely cheating.  And I don‘t think we ought to put wives in the positions of having to say, Oh, my God, I should have seen the signs that he was cheating, because that‘s almost victimizing the victim one more time.

WITT:  Well, OK.  One guy was taking off his wedding ring.

BERKOWITZ:  Right.

WITT:  That‘s one sign.  What about change in appearance, all of a sudden...

BERKOWITZ:  But he‘s not going to do it in front of his wife.

WITT:  No, of course not.  But a change in appearance, you know, working out.

BERKOWITZ:  Maybe...

WITT:  What about the business place, the workplace?

BERKOWITZ:  Well...

WITT:  That‘s a place where you have opportunity.

BERKOWITZ:  You know, we all think of our lives—you know, at least a third of our waking hours, at least a third, are spent at the office.  And so do you have close relationships that you form with people of the same sex and people of the opposite sex.  People certainly travel a lot more for business these days, and sometimes that‘s going to be with a woman.  And sometimes, something might happen.  Usually, it doesn‘t, but sometimes it might.

WITT:  You talked about friends.  Can a man and a woman really be just friends?

BERKOWITZ:  I think they can, but I think there‘s always going to be that sexual tension there, and you have to acknowledge that.  I don‘t think they‘re going to have same exact kind of relationship as they would with a friend of the same gender.  There‘s going to be that tension.  Just acknowledge it.  Doesn‘t mean you have to do anything about it, but it‘s going to be there.

WITT:  Can a marriage survive infidelity?

BERKOWITZ:  Yes.  It‘s interesting.  It can.  It‘s difficult, and some marriages have been strengthened as a result of an infidelity that was uncovered.  I came across a statistic during the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky affair which said that a substantial number of women said that they would not leave their husbands if they found out that he was cheating.  I don‘t think there was permission for them to cheat, but I think they—they were saying that marriage is something that is not easy and it‘s not easy to lose.  And so therefore, they were going to try to work it out.

WITT:  Are men likely to fall in love with their new sexual partner?

BERKOWITZ:  They may.  They may, especially if it‘s the kind of guy who‘s looking for that kind of validation from a woman, in the case that he‘s not getting it from his wife.  But if he thinks he can get it from another woman, he‘s going to be drawn to her.

WITT:  But it‘s all about good communication.  That‘s a lot of times what a guy is looking for.  He wants to communicate with a woman, share...

BERKOWITZ:  Absolutely.  Absolutely.  And you know, women complain that they‘ll go out and have affairs when their—they say their husbands ignore them or treat them like a piece of furniture or something like that.  Again, I‘d say it‘s the same thing with guys.  They‘re looking for some companionship.  They‘re looking for some closeness.  And they‘re looking to be validated.

WITT:  OK.  Bob Berkowitz, thank you so much.  Appreciate your time.

BERKOWITZ:  A pleasure being here.

WITT:  When we come back: Women cheat too, but not always for the same kinds of reasons that men do.  So we‘ll be right back with that.  But first, remember this scene from the movie “Moonstruck,” where Olympia Dukakis tries to answer the age-old question, Why do men chase younger women?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OLYMPIA DUKAKIS, ACTRESS:  Can I ask a question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Go ahead.

DUKAKIS:  Why do men chase women?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Nerves.

DUKAKIS:  I think it‘s because they fear death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

WITT:  Well, husbands aren‘t the only ones with wandering eyes.  More and more women are scratching that seven-year inch.  Diane Shader Smith was one of them.  Married for years and a mother of two, she found herself tempted to stray, but she decided to pick up her pen instead of a man and interviewed 150 cheating women for a book called “Undressing Infidelity.”  NBC‘s Alexis Glick sat down with her and some of the women she profiled to find out firsthand why women cheat.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Are you married?

JULIA ROBERTS, ACTRESS:  Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN SHADER SMITH, “UNDRESSING INFIDELITY”:  I have a wonderful husband.  I love my children and I love my life, but I‘m still tempted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Are you here with anyone tonight?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  With my husband.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WENDY ALDEN ROGERS, HAD EXTRAMARITAL AFFAIR:  It was, like, Wow!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNETTE BENING, ACTRESS:  Glad you liked me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Liked you?  I loved you!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  One night, I hugged him.  And I felt like I was going to die.  I felt like my heart was going to just leap out of my chest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I like having a secret.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  It was an emotional need that was definitely not being met in my home or with my husband.

ALEXIS GLICK, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  What constitutes cheating?

SMITH:  There are a lot of women enjoying their marriages and also enjoying affairs on the side.  And those are the women that will never appear on television.  You will never get them up here because their husbands don‘t know, their children don‘t know they‘re leading double lives.  And in some cases, it‘s a one-night stand or an occasional fling after a party, and in other cases, it‘s ongoing relationship that lasts for years and years and years.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  What are we doing here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Having lunch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I shouldn‘t be doing this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  What (UNINTELLIGIBLE) be having lunch?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Not with you!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GLICK:  Tell us why you decided to write this book.

SMITH:  I was really, really, really dismayed to find myself attracted to another man.  I was tempted to stray.  We‘d had a lot of things going on in my marriage that were making things a little bit difficult at home.  I met somebody who just distracted me.  And really, that‘s what it was.  It was the ultimate distraction.  And when I was with him, talking, talking about anything, talking about the coffee, the weather, it wasn‘t thinking about all the problematic things I had to deal with at home.

I thought, Before I actually do something like take a sledgehammer to my marriage, I should go out and talk to women.  And what happened was, it was shockingly easy to find women not only who‘d had affairs and who were willing to come forward and talk about it.

GLICK:  Let‘s talk, Wendy, about your situation, since you were married for a long time before you actually had an affair.

ROGERS:  We almost had what everybody thought was the picture-perfect marriage.  We had an opportunity to move to the Caribbean.  And when we moved down, everything kind of shifted, and I started feeling very uncomfortable with him.  I just—we had a lot of other issues going on in the marriage.  I didn‘t want to be identified with him anymore.  I never ever, ever, ever thought I would commit adultery.  I know this is going to sound strange, but I didn‘t feel like I was having an affair.

GLICK:  What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I was separated from my husband after we had been married eight years.  He was a drug addict and an alcoholic.  And he also admitted that he had had an affair.  His roommate and I started a friendship, and that friendship, after a little while, probably about a month, turned into a sexual encounter.

GLICK:  Your husband had an affair while you were pregnant.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Right.

GLICK:  But you remained in the marriage.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I had friendships with other males.  There was a communication going on and an extreme comfort and an emotional bond.  It wasn‘t necessarily physical.  And it was someone who would talk with you and laugh with you and listen and care about your thoughts and your feelings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL DOUGLAS, ACTOR:  So I leave you alone for 30 seconds, and you elope with a younger man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GLICK:  There are lot of women who did this and have big regrets.

ROGERS:  I probably experienced some of the worst consequences anybody could experience.  You know, I was married to a lawyer who decided that payback would be sweet.  I went through extraordinary, you know, financial deprivation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I felt so guilty that I couldn‘t even go to church.  I couldn‘t talk to my friends who were associated through the church.

SMITH:  The women that tend to have regrets are the women that get caught.  The women that don‘t get caught don‘t tend to have regrets.  Once you‘ve been tempted once and you‘ve experienced an affair and there are no consequences, then it‘s very, very easy to do it again.  And if it feels good, why not?  You know, what‘s a—what‘s a little—what‘s one puff?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  The fact is, the act of cheating is defined by the act of getting caught.  One doesn‘t exist without the other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GLICK:  The American public is becoming more comfortable with movies like “Closer,” “Unfaithful.”  Why is it more socially acceptable today?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I think it‘s desensitization from all the movies and...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I think just that it‘s out there.  People know that people are doing it.

SMITH:  I think that when our culture is so over-infused with sex, it‘s natural that film would sort of replicate—you know, is it life imitating art or art imitating life?  I think that, clearly, the movies are depicting what‘s going on in real life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WITT:  And that was NBC‘s Alexis Glick.  The women she talked to said they cheat to fulfill an emotional need, but is there more to it?  Joining us now is Susan Shapiro Barash.  She is the author of “A Passion for More:

Wives Reveal the Affairs That Make or Break Their Marriages.”  Welcome.

SUSAN SHAPIRO BARASH, RELATIONSHIP EXPERT”:  Thank you.

WITT:  Let‘s talk about this craze that is sweeping the nation, this “Desperate Housewives.”  You have one of the lead characters there, Eva Longoria.  She depicts a suburbanite who is having sex left and right there out in the suburbs.  How real is it?

BARASH:  I think it‘s very real, and I think that it‘s an understandable affair because she‘s a trophy wife and her husband is so busy making money that he neglects her.  And she has an emotional connection, as well as a sexual tie.

WITT:  OK, Susan, let‘s go into the kind of affairs that you talk about in your book.  There are four notable ones here that women fall into.  First of all, the empowering affairs.  Then the sex-driven affairs, love affairs and self-esteem affairs.  Empowering affairs—give me an example of that.

BARASH:  Empowering affairs are about women who are in the workplace.  They get out and about.  They travel for business.  They can have a boy toy, if they wish.  So they‘re doing traditionally what men always did was kind of on the side.

WITT:  And that‘s a relatively new phenomenon, then, right?

BARASH:  It is.

WITT:  It‘s workplace-driven.

BARASH:  It really is.

WITT:  All right, the sex-driven affairs.  That can‘t be new.

BARASH:  Well, you know, again, very similar to men because these women don‘t want an emotional connection, they‘re just interested in the sex.  And so they keep the marriage going and they have these sex affairs.

WITT:  Ah, but what about the love affairs?

BARASH:  That‘s the toughest part.  You know, a woman‘s going along, her life is fine.  She thinks everything is status quo, and she meets a man and he really knocks her off her feet.

BARASH:  Like in the movie “Unfaithful.”

BARASH:  Very much like that.

WITT:  We saw a clip of that, and Diane Lane.  I mean, that one scene people talk about.  If you‘re a married woman or have been married, you know her sitting on that train as she comes back from New York City, and just the thought process, the agony.  Is there agony for many of these women or not?

BARASH:  Agony, but she‘s also reliving the excitement and the emotional connection of it.  I think it really does depict the real thing.

WITT:  Is there guilt?

BARASH:  I don‘t find much guilt in my survey.  I find that the women are remarkably not guilty, and they‘re saying that they‘re getting their needs met.  And that‘s why they justify it.

WITT:  And these self-esteem affairs?  That‘s what it‘s about, getting your needs met?

BARASH:  Well, self-esteem is a little bit more like you turn 35 or 40, and you look in the mirror and you say, How much—you know, How many good years do I have left?  And what‘s going on here?  You know, the husband‘s watching TV and snoring and—like that.

WITT:  Yes.  Do you think that a woman, though, even if the guy snores, I mean, can she really love a man, be it her husband or significant other, sleep with him and then go out and have an adulterous affair with somebody else and maintain a genuine love for her husband or significant other?

BARASH:  I think that the women are very good at keeping it all going.  They use almost a splitting mechanism, so that they‘re still a good wife and a good mother, and then they have this fantasy life with the lover.

WITT:  Do you think this is relatively new, the number of women that are doing this, or do you think this was always going on but it was just not discussed?

BARASH:  I think that it‘s always been going on.  I think that the numbers are increasing.  I‘ve been researching female infidelity for 13 years, and I see that in the last few years, there really is a rise in the amount of women.

WITT:  So it‘s more than just talking about it.  There‘s more women actually doing it.  Is that because of the women that are in the workplace and the ability to do so?

BARASH:  Well, it‘s not just the workplace, Alex.  It‘s any way that women can get around.  I mean, women are pretty autonomous.  Almost everyone has two cars in the family.  You can drop even your little children at day care.  And women, if they‘re compelled to do this, can manage it.

WITT:  OK.  Let‘s say that you‘re a spouse or a significant other of a cheating woman.  Let‘s talk about the signs that one can look for, to know that their wife or lover might be up to no good.  First of all, the wife paying a bit more attention to her appearance, some schedule changes, any kind of change in pattern overall, any change in attitude.  Let‘s talk about appearance, first of all.  What is it?  Is it about going to Victoria‘s Secret and buying those little sexy teddies and things like that?

BARASH:  Definitely, and also losing weight or a change in hair style.  The change in schedule is interesting, too, because women say they‘re going to the gym, and maybe they‘re meeting a lover.

WITT:  So that‘s a change in pattern, as well.

BARASH:  Change in pattern.  And also, most importantly, a change in the attitude toward her husband.  She‘s either more distant or she might even be very close with him.

WITT:  Do you find that women are able to conduct sex with their husband and sex with the lover at the same time, or do you think you see the drop-off with the sex with the husband?

BARASH:  Some women keep it both—you know, keep both going because they feel that‘s the way to keep the secret.  And other women really do detach sexually from their husbands.

WITT:  But bottom line—you know, Susan, you know that we‘ve always thought that men went out for the sexual gratification, women were looking for the emotional gratification.  Is that still the case?  Have we evolved so much from that being the truth?

BARASH:  It really depends on what‘s missing in the marriage.  If a woman‘s in a marriage and it has great sex, then the lover listens to her.  He is, you know, a person who really understands her emotionally.  If the emotions are OK in the marriage or some kind of communication, but the sex is lacking, then it‘s a sexual relationship.

WITT:  And can a marriage survive the wife or the woman cheating?

BARASH:  It so depends on how the woman wants to play it out.  If she says to her husband, Look, I had this affair, and I want to renegotiate this marriage.  It‘s you who I want, and I‘ve learned that from the lover, that it‘s really this marriage that counts, then she has a good chance that it can work out.

WITT:  OK.  Susan Shapiro Barash...

BARASH:  Thank you.

WITT:  ... thank you for your time.  We appreciate your insights.

And still ahead: For those of who think cheating is inevitable, we‘re going to meet a woman who actually gives tips on how to best be unfaithful.  And next, how spouses who want to know if they‘re being cheated on find out the truth.  The undercover sleuth who finds out what‘s happening under the covers—that‘s when MSNBC REPORTS continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

(MUSIC)

WITT:  Jackie Mason is joking about 80 percent of husbands cheating.  But, according to my next guest, the real number is no laughing matter.  He says infidelity happens in 65 percent of all marriages.

Tony DeLorenzo is a P.I. who runs All State Investigations, a worldwide company that specializes in catching cheating spouses.  And he also wrote the book “The 28 Telltale Signs of a Cheating Spouse.”

Sixty-five percent?

TONY DELORENZO, INFIDELITY EXPERT:  Sixty-five percent. 

WITT:  That‘s discouraging. 

DELORENZO:  And I think it is authority going to be—it keeps on climbing every year. 

WITT:  Really?  And to what do you attribute that? 

DELORENZO:  I think that it‘s getting so common today that, 20 years ago, no one talked about AIDS.  But today you talk about it over a dinner table.  And infidelity, everyone knows someone that is cheating, but no one says anything about it. 

WITT:  So your clients come to you.  And they have suspicions.  They think their husband or their girlfriend or wife or whatever is cheating on them. 

DELORENZO:  Correct.

WITT:  How often are they right? 

DELORENZO:  Ninety-nine percent.  What happens is that, before they come to us, six months to 12 months it is going on.  And when it comes to us, it‘s so obvious now, because people are getting sloppy having their fear.  And then the signs are all over the place. 

People come to us and say, here‘s who I think who it‘s with.  Just put it in black and white for us. 

WITT:  OK, you lead us right into this.  What are the telltale signs? 

Let‘s look a couple of them you talk about.

DELORENZO:  OK.

WITT:  The first one being working overtime.  Now, that can be legit, but...

DELORENZO:  Of course.  It‘s hard to come home and go out again.  So they say, I‘m working overtime. 

WITT:  All right, working overtime.  Also, hiding your cell phone bill. 

DELORENZO:  The No. 1 way.  If you can find your lover‘s cell phone bill, the lover is always on the bill, because if you call your lover once a day in a billing cycle of 30 days, that number could show 20, 30, 40 times.  Very easy to pick out who the lover is. 

WITT:  And if somebody gets a cell phone bill, are they going to then come to you or they are going to feel like, problem solved, he‘s busted or she‘s busted?  

DELORENZO:  Usually, what they say is, tell me who this number belongs to.  And then once we give them the name, they say, that‘s something that they work with.  That‘s something that they‘re friends with.

I really need to know that, since they do work with this person, is it a business relationship or is it a relationship?  And that‘s what we‘re here to prove.

WITT:  Also you say new sexual techniques.  What do they do?  People come to you and say, oh, guess what?  I‘m having great sex.  I think my husband might be fooling around.   

DELORENZO:  Well, what happens that, usually, you‘re fooling around with someone younger.  So, if their style was unique to you, so you like it sort of subconsciously when you‘re back with your spouse, you‘re try something unique because it‘s subconsciously and all of a sudden, there‘s a red flag.  Where did they learn that?  How did that happen?  Another red flag.

WITT:  Do you ever blush when someone comes to you and talks to you? 

I‘m just curious?

(LAUGHTER)

DELORENZO:  I heard every story.  I tell people, tell me a story I never heard before, I‘ll do your job for nothing.  Never heard a new story yet.

(LAUGHTER)

WITT:  OK, how about finding the hidden lingerie?  That seems kind of obvious.  That‘s like a big no-no.

DELORENZO:  That‘s definitely a holiday thing, where you see lingerie or you see an unexplained purchases on a credit card.  And you‘re waiting, waiting, waiting.  A week goes by and two weeks go by, you never see it.  They‘re wearing it for somebody.  And that‘s when another red flag that comes up.

WITT:  Now, I understand—it‘s a rather cynical thought—but that Valentine‘s Day is one of your busiest days. 

DELORENZO:  Of course.  If you have a lover, you have to see your lover on Valentine‘s Day.  So if your spouse turns around on Valentine‘s Day and say, look, a meeting just came up.  I‘ll take you out tomorrow night, don‘t worry about it, they‘re with that lover tonight.  Or if you argue with them enough where they say, I‘ll take you out Valentine‘s Day, I guarantee you, the next lunch or the next dinner the very next day, they have a meeting, because they have to take the lover out.  There‘s no ifs, ands or buts.  A lover always comes first.   

WITT:  Oh, my.  Now, how often do you get calls? 

DELORENZO:  We get 300 calls a week and 250 e-mails a week to handle these calls. 

WITT:  It just seems overwhelming.  Are those numbers increasing? 

DELORENZO:  It‘s staggering. 

(CROSSTALK)

DELORENZO:  Just on Google alone, just on our key searches, we have

1.1   million inquiries a month people looking for private investigators in the country.  That‘s how rampant it is right now. 

WITT:  So, one of the things—one technique you must use has got to be video surveillance.

DELORENZO:  Oh, of course.  The video surveillance today, we can shoot video 100 yards away.  We can shoot video inside nightclubs.  We can shoot video.  We have cell phone video cameras, pager video cameras.  Every possible thing, we have. 

WITT:  You know, I have got to ask, do they really, really want to see this?  If they suspect very strongly, why do you want to see it?  That‘s got to hurt. 

DELORENZO:  What happens is that, say a woman hires us to follow her husband.  My husband works with this woman.  They have no choice but to do business together.  They have no choice but to travel together. 

So, when we have the videotape of them walking down the street holding hands and kissing, now they can turn around and say 110 percent chance I know that he‘s having an affair.  You can‘t get out of it.  No more lies.  Let‘s talk about the problem. 

WITT:  All right, who do you think cheats more?  We‘ve been talking so far this hour about men cheating and women cheating.  The statistics will say women.  But what are you finding out? 

DELORENZO:  We find that 62 percent of men cheat, 38 percent women.  But women getting into the work force and on the Internet, we find their percentage climbs every single year.  But men always have the lead, I feel. 

WITT:  So, women, they are on the increase? 

DELORENZO:  They‘re on the increase. 

WITT:  OK. 

What about marriages overall?  You give them this information.  Do you find they‘re able to repair themselves after you‘ve done this? 

DELORENZO:  What happens, 75 percent of women would say that here‘s a person they married.  Here‘s a person I was chosen by.  Here‘s a person I‘m supposed to spend the rest of my life with.  I‘ll give him another chance;

75 percent go back. 

A man is the opposite way.  You catch a wife having an affair, he doesn‘t care about anything.  I find only 25 percent of men actually try to work on their relationship after the wife has had an affair. 

WITT:  And why is that?  Do they tell you why?  Is it just ego?

DELORENZO:  I think it‘s just ego, yes, pure ego.

WITT:  You say that men and women stray for different reasons? 

DELORENZO:  Correct. 

Women usually cheat for emotion.  They usually know someone very well.  A man usually cheats strictly for sex.  A man can have sex with his girlfriend during the day, come home and have sex with his wife at night and thinks he‘s just Superman. 

WITT:  Do you ever find a woman wants to cheat just to have sex, too? 

DELORENZO:  There‘s always the rare on each thing.  But I think the majority of the people, it‘s strictly for emotional. 

WITT:  OK.  Well, listen, it‘s quite a job you‘ve got there, Tony DeLorenzo.  Thanks for sharing it with us tonight.  We appreciate it. 

DELORENZO:  Oh.  It‘s my pleasure. 

WITT:  And still ahead, not everyone says that cheating is necessarily bad for your relationship, because if you cheat, can you save your marriage?  My next guest says yes. 

Stick around. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WITT:  Most people think that cheating on your spouse means the end, but it doesn‘t have to be that way, at least according to my next guest. 

Stay with us. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

WITT:  For as long as there have been husbands and wives, there have been cheaters.  And most people would tell you cheating is wrong.  But my next guest says having an affair can actually be good for your marriage. 

Joining me is Judith Brandt, author of “The 50-Mile Rule: Your Guide to Infidelity and Extramarital Etiquette.”  And she has some tips for all of you interested in adultery 101. 

Judith, thanks for joining us. 

JUDITH BRANDT, AUTHOR, “THE 50-MILE RULE”:  Thank you so much.  It‘s a pleasure.

WITT:  This promises to be fun and interesting. 

First of all, the title of your book.  It says it‘s the 50-mile rule.  Why is that?  Because I had always heard that actually proximity is the way to do it. 

BRANDT:  Actually, the 50-mile rule states that spouses and lovers should live at least 50 miles apart and that their paths should never cross for any reason at any time. 

And one of the keys to successful affair management is really keeping your affair kind of out of the radar range of workers or significant others, including family members.  Distance is important. 

(CROSSTALK)

WITT:  How practical, though, can a 50-mile—outside a 50-mile radius be?  How much bang for buck are you going to get there, you know? 

(LAUGHTER)

BRANDT:  Well, part of the issue happens to be that affairs are generally found out because of proximity, because you‘re cheating with somebody who is within your work or social circle. 

So, if you want to keep this thing on the down-low and on the Q.T., you really need to put some distance between yourself and the social and work circles that you usually run in. 

WITT:  OK.  Before we get to some of the emotional fallout, if you will, of all of this, let‘s talk about the tips for the cheaters. 

BRANDT:  Aha.

WITT:  You talk about first safe sex.  That‘s kind of obvious in this age, right? 

BRANDT:  Absolutely.  Certainly, one of the great ways or one of the awful ways to be found out is to bring home some kind of a sexually transmitted disease when your significant other has been faithful to you.  You really can‘t use the herpes off the toilet seat excuse anymore.

And, of course, pregnancy. 

WITT:  Yes. 

BRANDT:  You know, if you have the girlfriend call and say, well, guess what, I have a bouncing baby boy that‘s nine months old and your husband is the father, is really a message that most men wouldn‘t want to have delivered. 

WITT:  All right, and you also talk about no wholesale changes to yourself.  What does that mean? 

BRANDT:  Basically, it means what some of your other guests were talking about.  One of the ways to really give yourself away is to start going to the gym, you know, start going to the salon to get your back hair removed, I mean, whatever it happens to be. 

When you have any kind of a relationship going on outside of your primary one, you really have to keep things on the home front pretty much the same as they‘ve always been.  Any changes you make are sure to be noted there. 

WITT:  And one thing you say, too, if you‘re caught, deny, deny, deny no matter what.  That‘s what you say.

BRANDT:  Oh, yes, deny, deny, deny and demand proof.  And if proof is offered, deny that, too. 

(CROSSTALK)

BRANDT:  The reality is, first of all, that people don‘t want to know.  They really don‘t want to hear that they‘ve been perhaps been supplanted in your affections by somebody who is younger or smarter or thinner or whatever it is. 

WITT:  But what if you want to get your marriage back on track or your relationship back on track?  What about honesty is the best policy? 

BRANDT:  Honesty is rarely the best policy when it comes to cheating.  If you want to get your marriage off track, the quickest way to get it off track is to admit that you‘re having an affair.  That‘s why the successful affair is the undiscovered affair. 

WITT:  And choose lovers wisely, you say.

BRANDT:  Absolutely, because one of the things that people generally don‘t remember or don‘t pay any attention to is the fact that, when you take a lover, you actually are bringing a third person into a relationship and that this is a person who, when this relationship ends, as it almost inevitably will, has absolutely no investment in keeping your secrets or keeping you happy. 

(CROSSTALK)

BRANDT:  It‘s a person who will have an agenda once you cut them loose. 

WITT:  But what I‘m going to say, according to your book, what, about 5 percent of the marriages—affairs, rather, will end in marriage? 

BRANDT:  Right.  But that makes 95 percent. 

(CROSSTALK)

WITT:  Well, exactly.

BRANDT:  Right.  That makes for 95 percent that won‘t. 

WITT:  And you also say don‘t take affairs personally.  What do you mean? 

BRANDT:  Most of the time, an affair is really kind of a detour on the matrimonial highway.  It‘s kind of a blip on the radar screen.  And when you invest too much emotionally in this, you really are setting yourself up not only to be hurt, but to basically give the other person too much emotional leverage over you. 

WITT:  And also the timing of knowing when to call it quits.  How do you know? 

BRANDT:  Well, affairs generally run emotionally along the same kind of timetable that marriages do.  You have the infatuation stage and then the attachment stage.  But you come to a stage that is the disillusion stage. 

And once managing the affair and dealing with this other person is more trouble than it‘s worth, you begin to sense that maybe it‘s time to cut this thing off.  But, of course, as we all know, it‘s far easier to get into an affair than it is to get out of it. 

WITT:  Than get out of it.

And, Judith, overall, we know that men have always been branded like, oh, it‘s OK in society.  What about women?  Are they branded negatively? 

BRANDT:  In what respect? 

WITT:  If they have an affair? 

BRANDT:  Well...

WITT:  Is it the scarlet letter A, Hester Prynn?  There you go. 

BRANDT:  Oh, yes.  For men, it‘s always been a matter of, oh, sowing their wild oats or doing what guys do.  And women are still looked upon as being somewhat sluttish, I suppose. 

WITT:  Can we say that word? 

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

WITT:  I‘m kidding.

BRANDT:  Well, in any event, as party girls. 

WITT:  Yes. 

BRANDT:  But the key to all of this is really to keep your affair under wraps and also to remember that, if affairs aren‘t fun, they‘re not worth pursuing, because if you‘re not enjoying this outside relationship and if it‘s becoming too much trouble to manage, then what is the point? 

(CROSSTALK)

WITT:  Yes.  Why bother if it‘s not fun? 

BRANDT:  Why bother? 

WITT:  All right, Judith Brandt, thank you so much for your time. 

Appreciate it. 

BRANDT:  Thank you very much.

WITT:  Still ahead, some cheaters have found new ways to keep their elicit rendezvous secret from their significant others.  This time, technology is helping them out. 

We‘ll be right back. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WITT:  If there‘s one thing every good cheater needs, it‘s a good alibi. 

Now a foolproof excuse may be as close as your cell phone.  Networks of strangers are banding together to help each other give loved ones the slip, skip work, and get out of sticky situations scot-free. 

Here‘s NBC‘s Tom Costello with more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM COSTELLO, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over):  Muy Emerick (ph) may not look like a guy who would lie to his girlfriend, but when it came to choosing between a romantic dinner with her and happy hour with his buddies, he chose happy hour and used a cell phone to text message an SOS. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Hi, everybody.  My name is Muy.  I am in a tight situation.  Can anybody help? 

COSTELLO:  The message went out to a group of perfect strangers.  And within minutes, one of them was on the phone to girlfriend Ryann (ph) explaining why Muy wouldn‘t make their date. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He is in a long meeting.  Very important.  He is going to be backed up for a few hours.  I just wanted to let you know, because he can‘t get to the phone. 

COSTELLO:  It worked, yet another little lie, courtesy of the Alibi and Excuse text messaging club on the Web, SMS.ac, 3,500 members worldwide just a click away with the perfect excuse, people like Eric Malone (ph) in San Diego, who sent out a plea for someone to call his boss. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He‘s got a flat tire, and he is on the freeway now and his phone is dead.  So, if you can go give him a pass today, that would be great.  And I got out of that one. 

COSTELLO:  Across the country in New Hampshire, David Willick (ph) has provided plenty of alibis for fellow club members, just being helpful, he says, but he draws the line at helping someone cheat on a spouse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I don‘t feel comfortable in doing that.  And I don‘t do it and I won‘t do it. 

COSTELLO (on camera):  But plenty of people will.  And with 100 million text-messaging phones out there, there‘s no telling how big this conspiracy might grow.  Here in New York, we found an entrepreneur who is taking cell phone deception to a new level.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  This really allows you to take control of your environment and hopefully can be used for good things, not only bad.

COSTELLO (voice-over):  Harry Cardman‘s (ph) cell phone software plays background sounds right into a phone call, fire trucks, barking dogs, crying babies, all of it allowing users to hide their real location.

(on camera):  This could really be used to heat and lie

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  It could be, but shame on you if you do it that way.

COSTELLO (voice-over):  Back in San Diego, Ryann says she first learned of her boyfriends‘s alibi and excuse club when we called.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I think this is definitely a guy thing, definitely a guy thing.  Guys are—it‘s just so typical of something a guy would want to do.

COSTELLO:  A month later, boyfriend Muy says his little lie is all water under the bridge.  Or is it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I‘ll get even with him.  I will get even with him.

COSTELLO:  Tom Costello, NBC News, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WITT:  Kind of cold.

We‘ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WITT:  Tomorrow night at this time, Dan Abrams hosts an all-new special, “Michael Jackson Accused.”  Here‘s a preview. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER:  Michael Jackson, superstar, is now Michael Jackson, defendant. 

MICHAEL JACKSON, DEFENDANT:  Please keep an open mind and let me have my day in court. 

ANNOUNCER:  What is the evidence against him? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Clearly, the DA thinks Michael Jackson is a child molester. 

ANNOUNCER:  And might past allegations settled out of court now be used at his trial?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He should have fought these actions to the bitter end and vindicated himself. 

ANNOUNCER:  We will take you behind the gates of Neverland and follow the trail of trouble that led the pop icon to the fight of his life. 

MSNBC REPORTS: “Michael Jackson Accused.”

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WITT:  And that‘s tomorrow night at 9:00 Eastern. 

Thanks so much for watching.  I‘m Alex Witt.  Coming up next, Joe Scarborough and “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.”

Have a great evening.  See you.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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