updated 3/15/2005 12:15:22 PM ET 2005-03-15T17:15:22

Guest: Arnold Schwarzenegger

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST:  Good evening.  I‘m Chris Matthews.  And welcome to the campus of Stanford University for the HARDBALL College Tour 2005.  Tonight, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. 

Let‘s play HARDBALL. 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome.  We‘re at Memorial Auditorium here at Stanford University surrounded by students, faculty and friends for the biggest Republican in the country whose name isn‘t Bush. 

Let‘s welcome him now, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER ®, CALIFORNIA:  That‘s great.  Thank you. 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you. 

Hey, hey, hey.  See, I‘m surrounded by friends.  This is terrific. 

(LAUGHTER)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I tell you, Chris, it is great to be here at Stanford University.  This is a school that has an incredible basketball team, I can tell you that. 

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Right?  Am I right, huh? 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Let‘s talk about that.

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS:  Well, they‘re in this fight.

SCHWARZENEGGER:  And it is also the home of the Hoover Institution. 

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Very famous, famous institution. 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Exactly. 

I see my buddy out there.  Look at this.  Secretary George Shultz is sitting right out there.  I see his face already. 

(APPLAUSE)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Hello.  Good to see you. 

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS:  Welcome to HARDBALL. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Thank you.  It‘s great to be back again. 

MATTHEWS:  You‘ve been here before.  We did Chapman College before. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  That‘s right. 

MATTHEWS:  Where you have a doctorate from there. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  That‘s right, exactly.  And we‘ve done many interviews before. 

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I mean, and any time I need to improve my ratings...

(LAUGHTER)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  ... then I come to you and I say, let‘s do a show together, right? 

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS:  All good things come to an end. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Because you‘re such a great...

(LAUGHTER)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  You‘re such a great conservative.  You‘re so helpful all the time.

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS:  I‘m always a mixed bag.  I find you hard to read as well. 

So let‘s move on. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, thank you very much for the compliment. 

MATTHEWS:  You know, I do find you hard to read. 

Let me ask you about the—the Supreme Court in the county of San Francisco today.  And we have to talk about this because it happened today.  It is newsworthy—has said that it is unconstitutional to deny people of the same sex a marriage license in this state.  Where do you stand on this? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, I think that, first of all, this is probably one of many kinds of events that will take place in the near future. 

I go by what the people have voted, which was Proposition 22.  And I think that this will be now going eventually to the Supreme Court in California, and we will see what the decision is.  And whatever that decision is, we will stay by that, because I believe in abiding by the law and sticking with the law. 

MATTHEWS:  But why would you not support the holding of a referendum, an initiative on a constitutional amendment to require that people be from different sexes when they get married in this state? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, I believe in what we have right now, which is, you know, the domestic partnership rights and equal rights.  And I support that 100 percent and have supported that.  And during my campaign, I always talked about that. 

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  And—but this is the will of the people.  And I think that if that changes because of the Supreme Court of California, then we go with that.  But, right now, this is just the first base of a legal challenge. 

MATTHEWS:  It seems to me the inspiring thing about your political role is that you believe the people should make decisions, if necessary in the ballot.  In fact, you‘ve taken your own election, of course, course, and, of course, issues you‘re bringing up later on this year.  Why not bring the issue of marriage and what constitutes a valid marriage to the people through a constitutional amendment process?

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, they did.  The people have voted already on that issue.  And we can take it back.  If people are not happy with that, they can put another initiative...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  Are you happy with it if they decide to say it‘s OK to have gay marriage in the state? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Absolutely.  If the people decide—I‘m the people‘s representative.  I am perfectly fine with that.  The important thing that‘s it‘s the people that vote on it.  The people have spoken before. 

MATTHEWS:  So...

SCHWARZENEGGER:  If they speak again and if they have changed their mind, because, remember, things change all the time.  I think that as we go on, I think people will be feeling more comfortable with the idea of domestic partnership and also marriage.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  Are you getting more comfortable with it? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I have always been comfortable with the domestic partnership rights. 

But I have always been much more open-mined about all of those things than maybe other people have. 

MATTHEWS:  Sure.

SCHWARZENEGGER:  But, I mean, that‘s what makes this state interesting.  We have different kinds of opinions.  And I think, in the end, if the legislators are not willing to solve those problems, I think you should give it to the people and let them make the decision.

MATTHEWS:  How did you vote on 22?  Did you vote for or against it?

SCHWARZENEGGER:  For domestic partnership. 

MATTHEWS:  But you voted against gay marriage?

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I don‘t believe in gay marriage.  I believe in partnership, domestic partnership. 

MATTHEWS:  Suppose the Supreme Court of this state says it is OK to have gay marriage, the same marriage kind of certificate as a heterosexual couple.  Would you move to try to change the constitution? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  No, absolutely not.  I will stay with that. 

MATTHEWS:  You would go with the courts?

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Whatever the Supreme Court, whatever the Supreme Court decides, that‘s exactly what I will stay with. 

MATTHEWS:  And that‘s consistent with your philosophy, letting some judges decide, rather than letting all the people of the state decide?

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, both, the people or the judge.  In both cases, I think the important issue here is that it should not be the power of a mayor, for instance, like Mayor Newsom in San Francisco. 

MATTHEWS:  You think he was wrong?

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I thought he was overstepping the line, because I thought that this is, again, something that the legislators can do, the people can do, or the court can do, but not individual mayors cannot make up the laws that go along, because, eventually, you have some other mayor in some other town start saying, OK, I think we should hand out guns and ammunitions and we should have free this.

I think we should have—abide by the law and we should have certain rules. 

MATTHEWS:  I see.

SCHWARZENEGGER:  And I think that‘s what the fight or the argument was all about, was not that, you know, about gay marriage or domestic partnership, but it was more, should a mayor have the right to do that?  And I think that that is in the end what the question is all about. 

MATTHEWS:  What is it like being a politician? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Someone has asked me just recently, what is the biggest challenge for you, Governor?  And I said never to become a politician.  So, don‘t ask me what it is like to be a politician.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS:  Well...

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Because I—because I am not a politician and never will be a politician. 

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS:  Let me ask everybody in this room, if you think Arnold Schwarzenegger is a politician, raise your right hand. 

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS:  If you believe he is not, raise your right hand.  You lost. 

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS:  Ronald Reagan used to say he was a citizen politician.  What does it mean to be elected by the people, to take the oath of office, to serve, and to serve with a lot of effort like you‘ve been doing—that‘s clear—and still say you‘re not a politician?  What does that mean? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, what I mean is that I‘ve been sent to Sacramento by the people of California to fix a broken system, but not to be a politician, because I think that the recall election was very clearly about that the politicians of California have not been able to take care of the job. 

They‘ve run down the state.  They‘ve created the hugest debt in the history of California.  They have run businesses out of the state.  And they‘ve really run the state irresponsibly by being spenders, spenders, spenders, and really not living within their means. 

And so the people—the recall was about, let‘s take someone from the outside, someone that can go in there and does not have all this baggage.

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  And can actually—does not—does not owe anyone any favors, and can go and really, truly represent the people of California. 

So, that‘s why I was saying that this is why I want to stay with that.  I want to be the outsider, just an ordinary citizen, or a guy that was from the action movies or from bodybuilding, whatever. 

MATTHEWS:  Sure.

SCHWARZENEGGER:  But as a citizen, not a politician that goes in there and says, OK, I‘m going to give my time to fix the state of California.  And this is why I don‘t like to be labeled as a politician.  The politicians are hanging around in Sacramento. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  But nobody wants to be called a politician. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  No, but there‘s a reason for that, because they can‘t get the job done.  This is the reason for it. 

I want to be from the outside.  I want to be one of the folks...

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  ... that comes in and says, you know, I want to bring both parties together.  You have to understand, when I got elected, people said that this state cannot be governed.  It cannot be managed. 

MATTHEWS:  OK. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  That we have a huge crisis.  The financial situation is so bad that it cannot be fixed and all this.

And, for me, the challenge was how to bring people, the—both parties, Democrats and Republicans, together and fix the broken system.  That‘s really the challenge. 

MATTHEWS:  You know, a lot of people out here—I haven‘t been out here—until I came out here this trip, I haven‘t been out here in a while, but I see you‘ve been taking on a lot of the public employees, nurses, firefighters, teachers.  Why are they the target?  Why did they become your adversary in this fight for reform? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, there‘s one thing I don‘t like to do.  And this is to correct you. 

MATTHEWS:  OK. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Because you are very smart and you‘re terrific with what you‘re doing. 

MATTHEWS:  And you‘re not a politician. 

(LAUGHTER)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Know—and know much more...

(LAUGHTER)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  And know much more about policy than anyone knows.

But let me just tell you, it is a big misconception that to say that I‘ve taken on nurses.  I would never take on nurses.  I love nurses.  Nurses have supported me. 

(LAUGHTER)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Nurses have supported me.  Nurses have saved my life when I was in the hospital.  I was three times in the hospital in the last eight years.

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Especially with heart surgery, with open heart surgery.  And they were there 24 hours a day and helped me.  So, I would—

I respect and honor what they‘re doing. 

The same is also with teachers.  And we need teachers.  I‘m admiring teachers.  I‘m involved with after-school programs, have been, as you know, for 15...

MATTHEWS:  I know that.

SCHWARZENEGGER:  For 15 years, and I‘ve traveled to more schools than any politician has.  I‘ve gone to hundreds of schools all over the country when I was with the President‘s Council on Fitness or when I was creating after-school programs. 

So, I love teachers.  And we need more teachers and they should get paid more.  But I am against the unions, because the unions are the ones that are creating the big problem.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)  

MATTHEWS:  Do the unions—are you saying that the unions don‘t like you.  They want to have more nurses on the hall, right? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, it doesn‘t make any sense.  We are right now short 14,000 nurses, short 14,000 nurses. 

If we now create this kind of 5-1 ratio...

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Now it is a 6-1 ratio.  For every six patients, it‘s one nurse.  They want to cut it down to a 5-1 ratio.  We already have a shortage of nurses.  That will create another 1,500 nurses shortage on top of the 14,000 that we have. 

I cannot sign a law or I cannot agree to something that we cannot keep.  We cannot keep that, because it is already bankrupting our hospitals.  We are closing more and more emergency rooms because they cannot afford it.  What the union wants to do is, they want to have a small amount of nurses, so that they can go and have added pay when they stay overtime and all this, which is really what is double pay and triple pay and all those kinds of things. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  But nurses don‘t make much money, do they? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, the nurses that are employed in county hospitals, they don‘t get as much as they should.  And the nurses that don‘t have, they get them—private nurses, that some make a huge amount of money.  It is the system that they‘ve created, the unions they‘ve created that bankrupt our hospitals and they close down our emergency rooms. 

I have the responsibility as a governor to get protection for every citizen in California, so they have close by their neighborhood an emergency room, so they have hospital facilities, so we have doctors that they can go in a case of emergency.  We‘re closing them as we go on because of situations, because the unions are only interested in their interest to gain power and not the interests of the patients and the interests of the people of California.  That‘s why I call them special interests. 

Not that I call the nurses special interests.  This is where the press makes the mistake.  I call the unions special interests, because they are there in the way to create the ultimate health care for our—for our citizens.

MATTHEWS:  When you were—when you were asking for a business and your union was fighting for your interests, were they fighting for you or were they fighting against you?  In other words, are all unions bad? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Let me tell you something, when you‘re an actor in my position, you never need a union to fight for you at all, because it‘s all...

(LAUGHTER)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  It‘s all supply and demand. 

(APPLAUSE)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  You know that.

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

When we come back, we‘ll ask Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger about the war in Iraq.  Does he think it‘s worth the casualties?

You‘re watching the HARDBALL College Tour live from Stanford, only on

MSNBC.   

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS:  We‘ll be back with Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger in a moment on the HARDBALL College Tour.  And, tomorrow, Clint Eastwood.

You‘re watching HARDBALL on MSNBC. 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  ... didn‘t have a car—but one day we were in my uncle‘s car.  It was near dark as we came to the Soviet checkpoint.  I was a little boy.  I was not an action hero back then.  But I remember—I remember how scared I was that the soldiers would pull my father or my uncle out of the car and I would never see them again.  My family and so many others lived in fear of the Soviet boot.  Today, the world no longer fears the Soviet Union.  And it is because of the United States of America!

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

MATTHEWS:  We‘re here at Stanford University for the HARDBALL College Tour.  And that was, of course, Arnold Schwarzenegger, the governor of California, speaking at the Republican Convention. 

Can you still feel that memory, the Soviet boot? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, absolutely. 

I remember when we drove to Vienna.  Many times, we had to drive through the checkpoints when the Soviets were standing there and how scared we were each time when we went there.  And my father would say, just be quiet.  Don‘t cry.  Don‘t talk.  Let me do the talking and all that stuff.  It was—it was a memorable experience.  It definitely was.  And I think the whole country was living in fear until they left in 19 -- I think was ‘57 or so that they left, or ‘55. 

MATTHEWS:  You know, I was trying to cover that back in ‘89.  And I‘ll tell you, when you were in Hungary, they would be talking about Yeltsin and the Soviet Union, what he was doing when he stood up to the soviets. 

And when I was in East Berlin right before the wall came down, I had a young guy say (SPEAKING GERMAN) What does freedom mean to you?  And he said:  Talking to you.  I couldn‘t do it two weeks ago. 

When you watch the Middle East right now and all that‘s going on with regard to what‘s coming about in Lebanon with the uprisings against the Syrians, the elections in Iraq and in the Palestinian territories, do you think the same kind of thing is happening, that sort of chain reaction of democracy?  Or is it more complicated? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, I think that, in the end, democracy is going to win. 

And I think it takes a lot of marketing and promotion of that idea overseas.  But I think that we are successful.  We see how happy that some of the people are in Iraq, even though there‘s incredible violence still in Iraq.  But I think, in the end—it is very hard to judge right now, but we see changes there.  And I think that, 20 years from now, we will see really great, great, positive improvements there, that other countries will become democratic.  And we see the peace negotiations that are going on between the Palestinians and the Israelis. 

You can feel that it is going in a positive direction.  And I think it is all because of the great influence that the United States has over there, even though there are so many people that are still critical and people are talking about, is it really worth it, like you just said here earlier.

MATTHEWS:  Yes, well, that‘s the question.  Is it? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  It is worth it to have—it is worth it because you cannot judge it just by what is going on today.  But you have to look into the future. 

You know, when—I remember when—and I‘m sure the Secretary Shultz can tell you all about when Reagan had the big Star Wars and the big military buildup...

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  ... and the confrontations and nuclear missiles and people said, is that worth it?  We‘ll maybe destroy the world and all this. 

But, in the end, look what has happened.  There‘s no more Soviet Union.  Communism is deteriorating as we speak.  I mean, this is great, great news.  And this, it really takes away the threat that we had over us all the time and the amount of money that we spent all the time.  So, I think in the end—and I have to say one thing, that those soldiers are so brave and they‘re tough.  And I remember...

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I‘ll tell you, I‘ll tell you, I visited them on July 4.  I visited them two years ago in Iraq.  And it is amazing when you see what those soldiers go through. 

And then after, on the way back, I visited the hospital in Germany, where the wounded soldiers are lying or the Reed Hospital in Washington.  And I always go whenever I have a chance to go and visit the wounded soldiers, because, man, those are the ultimate heroes. 

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  When you think about what they risk.  And then here in the states sometimes, politicians don‘t even want to risk maybe that they will lose the election if they really stand up for something and fight for something. 

This is why I say, we have got to have more courage, and especially when it comes to fighting for democracy right here.  And this goes into then redistricting and things.

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  That I know you will cover that later on. 

MATTHEWS:  We‘ll be getting into everybody, a lot of democracy coming back at Stanford after this commercial.  We‘re going to talk about Warren Beatty taking some shots at this fellow here, the governor of this state, also, his fight with his cousin, what, Ted Kennedy. 

What is he, a relative of yours?  Anyway...

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS:  Ted Kennedy is for moving the minimum wage up.  You‘re for holding it.  Let‘s talk about the family feud within the Schwarzenegger-Kennedy clan only on HARDBALL.

We‘re coming back.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARREN BEATTY, ACTOR:  At long last, Mr. Terminator, do you want to terminate our decency?  Arnold, be the action hero that I know you can be.  Be strong.  Stand up and confront the wealthiest 1 percent of Californians who have benefited $12 million—excuse me -- $12 billion each year from just the Bush tax cuts alone. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

MATTHEWS:  We‘re back with Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger on the HARDBALL College Tour. 

That was Warren Beatty taking you on.  We didn‘t show the whole clip, but he says you‘re working with Wall Street and the K Street lobbyists.  And what do you say to Warren Beatty? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  And he said we should increase taxes, right?

MATTHEWS:  Right, for the rich.  

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I just—I love that. 

But all I can say is that, if he promises me not to give me advice in politics, I promise him not to give him advice on acting. 

(LAUGHTER)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

MATTHEWS:  Let‘s move now to a professional—I think you would—well, the Kennedys always say they‘re public servants, not politicians.  That‘s one thing you guys agree on.  Ted Kennedy was out there on the floor of the Senate last week. 

And I think he—he told me once he really likes to fight for minimum wage.  He believes in it as a cause.  It‘s a pure cause for the Democratic Party.  You recently opposed a hike in the minimum wage of this state from $6.75 an hour to $7.75 an hour.  That‘s still $14,000 a year.  That‘s not a whole lot of money. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, first of all, even if you tried very hard, you cannot put a wedge between Teddy and me.

MATTHEWS:  OK. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Because it is family.  And I will never say anything about him.  So that‘s No. 1. 

No. 2, I feel it is perfectly fine that he believes in that.  I respect Teddy because he has been, like you said, a public servant for many, many years.  And he has done an incredible job for the United States and has for the people in Massachusetts and all that.  But the fact of the matter is, I have to run my state and he should run his thing.  And we will be very happy. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  What‘s your difference in philosophy about the minimum wage?  What is it about? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, it is, minimum wage alone, looking at it as a single item, doesn‘t help you. 

Because I would like everyone to make $100 an hour.  But can the businesses afford it?  Can our economy afford that?  It is a very competitive economy out there.  It is a global economy, where we are competing against China, against Japan, against European countries, against the whole globe, basically. 

So, any time you raise the salaries and raise the minimum wage, that has an effect and it gets passed on, on to goods.  And then we cannot be competitive with other countries.  And, therefore, businesses leave the state.

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Go outside of—look what happened in the last few years before I got into office, where we rang up a huge debt, $22 billion.  And we chased businesses away because we overregulated.

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  And made it too expensive for businesses.  So, we have to be considered. 

What creates jobs in the first place is to protect our businesses and to make sure that they can survive and that we can be competitive on the world market. 

MATTHEWS:  Yes.  Yes. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  And then we have full employment.  Since I‘ve came into office, we have increased employment by 250,000 people.  That‘s important, is to create jobs.

MATTHEWS:  I know.

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Rather than just to say, let‘s move the minimum wage up there and not look at the total picture.  As governor, you always have to look at the total picture.  And this is what I‘m fighting for, to make sure that every Californian has a job. 

MATTHEWS:  OK, when we come back, Arnold Schwarzenegger‘s political future. 

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS:  What‘s next for him?  Running for governor again?  We‘ll see.  More questions from the audience.  In fact, we‘re going to the audience in the next segment.

We‘re on the HARDBALL College Tour at Stanford.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS:  Still ahead on the HARDBALL College Tour, Arnold Schwarzenegger on what he would like to do when he is done being governor.  And would he like to see the Constitution changed to allow foreign-born Americans to run for president? 

The HARDBALL College Tour is back in a moment. 

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS:  But, first, let‘s check in with the MSNBC news team. 

(NEWS BREAK)

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to the HARDBALL College Tour.  We‘re at Stanford University, one of the great universities in the world, with Arnold Schwarzenegger, the governor of California. 

First question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Governor, I would like...

MATTHEWS:  Stand up, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Governor, I would like to know what keeps you up at night.

(LAUGHTER)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  What keeps me up at night?  Is that the question? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Yes. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Actually, at night, I go to bed.  I go to sleep. 

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Nothing keeps me up at night.  As a matter of fact, I‘m very happy to say that I am a good sleeper. 

(LAUGHTER)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Because of clear conscience.  I mean, I can go to sleep and sleep very well, which is very important in this profession, not to take your job to bed and to worry about the problems. 

I mean, I have my worries during the day, but not at night.  So, and, sometimes, at parties that—it goes late.  And then I don‘t go to sleep, or when you travel around a lot of times.  I used to travel a lot.  Then I stayed up all night sometimes.  So...

MATTHEWS:  What does that mean to be a person who has spent all these successful years building up a brand?  People like you.  You‘re—I remember a kid in Modesto during your campaign for governor just running up to you.  You did not see him.  But we were just ending your rally.  And the kid went up and just touched the bus, just so he could have contact with you, as this global figure.  It was an amazing thing to see. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  Do you feel—does it hurt to lose that kind of public adoration by taking on all these groups? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  No, absolutely not, because, in the end, what is important is, what is the end result?

And the end result will be that we will have total reform on all of those issues that I‘ve said,  If it is budget reform, pension reform, redistricting and education reform. 

The people of California, as I said earlier, have sent me to Sacramento to fix the broken system.  And this is what I will do, no matter how many times the unions have tried to be against me.  I‘ve said it many times.  This is the time now where a governor will represent the people of California, not the unions of California and not the special interests of California. 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

MATTHEWS:  Next question. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Governor, you—you‘ve called some critics of the Republican economic policy economic girly men.  You‘ve also referred to California Democrats as the Three Stooges.  Do you think this kind of schoolyard name-calling helps the bipartisan atmosphere that you had said that you were hoping to bring to Sacramento? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, I have a different goal, to bring a little bit of humor and a little bit of fun and entertainment into the political arena, because it is so boring.  Let me tell you something.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  But the important thing is, and one of the things that I‘m most proud of is, that that—that I have brought Democrats and Republicans together since I‘ve come into office. 

If you think about the things that we‘ve accomplished last year, think about Proposition 57 and 58, to refinance under better terms our debt that I‘ve inherited, the $22 billion, then also to go and to tell the politicians, never again can you spend money and borrow it from outside institutions, which Proposition 58 does.  We have sent back $4 billion in tax money to the people of California. 

We have solved the workers‘ compensation problem.  We have created reform in workers‘ compensation.  We have brought businesses back to California.  We have brought jobs back to California, and then, last year, with the initiatives, to cut down on the frivolous and shakedown lawsuits, and stem cell research.  All those things that we have supported and have created is absolutely spectacular. 

And I was only able to do that by bringing Democrats and Republicans together and doing it together.  That‘s when we are at our most powerful, when both of the parties work together.  So, I always will strive for that. 

MATTHEWS:  What‘s the difference between and you the president on stem cell research funded by the government? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I think that I‘m for stem cell research.  And I think that he is, too, to a certain extent. 

But I—the way our initiative was written, I was for that, that we go all out, that we have an opportunity to really, within the next 10 years, find cures for a lot of those unbelievable illnesses, interesting, like my father-in-law, who has Alzheimer‘s disease, Sargent Shriver, as you know, and Parkinson‘s disease and many other diseases that we have, heart diseases and so on. 

So, I think we should do the research and we should not let anyone stop us.  I think this is the way to do it.  And California, again, has carved out to be a leader in biotech and in that industry, and we‘re going to have all the great scientists and the researchers come to California and do business here, which also will not be only good for creating cures for those illnesses, but also for our economy.  Wonderful. 

MATTHEWS:  Go ahead.

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  If you had—if you had the opportunity to be president, what would be the first thing that you would change? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, to be honest with you, I don‘t really get into hypotheticals, because my mind is not on being president. 

My mind is totally occupied on fixing the problems of California.  We still have a lot of problems left.  And this is why I‘ve said the year 2005 is the year of reform.  We have to do our reforms and we have to really cure the problems and, you know, to solve our problems, so that we get to the root of it and fix it once and for all, rather than always living beyond our means, always having this budget deficit, always hearing and reading in the news that our schools are failing and that our teachers are failing our students or that the students are failing and all this stuff.

All of this, we have to fix, because I think that we have the greatest state in the greatest country in the world.  There‘s no two ways about it.  We have an unbelievable potential in this state.  And I think that we have hardworking people.  We have hardworking teachers.  We have hardworking people out there that are working.  But we have to just solve some of those problems and get to the root of it, what caused those problems in the first place. 

MATTHEWS:  When Ronald Reagan sat at the oval desk for the first time, he said, I‘ve been here before.  Being governor of California was a job almost preparatory for the presidency of the United States.  Do you feel that is the case, that this job is big enough to prepare you for the presidency, should you be interested? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, I think it has certain similarities, because you manage a state and, in that case, as president, you manage a country. 

But I think that the important thing for me is not to pay attention to what would it be like to be president, but to just deal with the facts.  Here we have a set of problems in this state.  And I‘m going to fix it.  That‘s what I have promised the people of California.  And I also promised them that, as governor, I will never spend more money than the state takes in.  So, those are the kinds of things that are important.  Those are the kind of things we want to fix. 

MATTHEWS:  That‘s something presidents don‘t do. 

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS:  Go ahead.

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Very nice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Governor, your reforms threaten a powerful set of politicians and labor union leaders accustomed to getting what they want out of Sacramento.  How will you generate a sense of urgency required for real, fundamental change? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I think that the people...

MATTHEWS:  That was a HARDBALL question. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Exactly. 

(LAUGHTER)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I think that the people of California are very much aware of that we have certain problems and they need to be fixed.  And they are also aware of it, that the politicians are dragging their feet and not wanting to fix those things because of the powerful special interests and the powerful unions that are behind it, saying to them, don‘t touch it.  We want to keep the status quo. 

So, this is why I‘m going directly to the people.  That‘s why we are right now gathering signatures because the politicians have not come to the table.  They‘ve not put a written proposal or a counterproposal there.  So, I‘m going directly to the people of California.  And the polls are very clear.  The polls say that 78 percent of the people are saying that, yes, we have a big budget problem and it ought to be fixed.  And almost 70 percent of the people say, let us fix it, not the politicians. 

So, we are in the right direction.  More than 60 percent of the people say we have a pension problem.  I mean, the year 2000, we had $160 million pension application.  Now, five years later, we have $2.6 billion.  That‘s 1006 percent more.  We can‘t continue this way.  We have got to stop the big spenders in Sacramento.  And I‘m going to stop them, no matter how many special interests are there. 

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS:  we‘ll be back with more questions for Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger at Stanford university.

This is HARDBALL on the College Tour, only on MSNBC. 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)  

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to Stanford.  We‘re here at Stanford University on the HARDBALL College Tour with Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Outside, in the auditorium, I‘m informed, 250 teachers, nurses and firefighters, seniors, are all demonstrating against you.  But here you are safe in here. 

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS:  You don‘t mind that, don‘t you?

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I‘m also safe out there.  You know, like I said, it is obviously better if you don‘t have the demonstrators. 

But, in the end, what is important is that I shoot for my goal, which is to reform California, to reform the budget system and the education system, pension system, and redistricting.  And there‘s a lot of special interests and the unions that are against that.  They want to keep the status quo.  The key thing is, this is not a fight Democrats vs.  Republicans.  This is just simply a battle between status quo and moving on and creating the reforms.  That‘s what this is. 

And the big spenders and the spending interests in Sacramento have to be stopped.  That‘s...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  Where in your philosophy do you distinguish between special interests and people operating in the public interest?  Teachers, nurses, and maybe, by extension, their unions, people would say, they‘re public interest people, because, every day, they work for the public.  They don‘t make much money.  They must be doing it for public—because of their public concerns. 

Drug companies, big businesses, these fellows are coming in to have lunch with you and they‘re kicking into your campaign.  Are they special interests?  What do they get out of it? 

(APPLAUSE)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Let me ask you a simple question. 

(APPLAUSE)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Let me ask you a simple...

MATTHEWS:  Well, why aren‘t they special interests? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  No, no, but let me—let me ask you a simple question.  We have a bill, SB 1419, that says that the schools in California cannot contract out.  They have to employ public employees to do the...

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Mowing the lawn, doing the fixing of the schools, the roofing.  Whatever it may be in the school, it has to be public employees. 

It cost the California school system, our education system, $300 million extra.  Do you think that‘s to the public‘s interest or is it to the unions‘ interest?  Think about that. 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

MATTHEWS:  Well...

SCHWARZENEGGER:  No, it‘s very simple.  It‘s very simple. 

I say—I say that that actually destroys the whole thing, because what we have to do is, we want to let the schools go and contract out to anyone who is the cheapest and the best worker. 

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Why do we have to be insisting on public employees? 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

MATTHEWS:  What is the—some of your critics have raised the issue that, in your campaigns to raise support for your reforms, you‘re contracting out jobs to India, those people that once worked in the boiling rooms.  How do you defend that? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, you know something?  Those critics should create the jobs that I‘ve created. 

And by calling a special election, which we‘re going to do very soon...

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  ... we have created a whole industry in California. 

People are out there gathering signatures.

MATTHEWS:  But why would you...

(LAUGHTER)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  There‘s hundreds of millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars are being spent on television.  It stimulates our economy.  All this creates jobs.  What are they talking about contracting out to India? 

MATTHEWS:  Well, why are you—why are you contracting out jobs to India? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I have no problem with that.  The most important thing is that we create jobs here. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  But that‘s because they‘re cheaper salaries, right?

SCHWARZENEGGER:  No, no.  Chris, don‘t get shortsighted here. 

(LAUGHTER)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  We have got to fix—we have got to fix—we have got to fix the problem of California.  This is all diversion.  They say that I‘m trying to unplug the life support systems of old ladies.

MATTHEWS:  No.

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I‘m trying to take away the death benefits for the firefighters.  They say that I‘m trying not to keep my promise with educators.  These are the kinds of things that the special interests and the unions are saying, their campaign tactic. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  What we‘re trying to do here is find out what‘s true.  Are you contracting out jobs to India? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Not me. 

MATTHEWS:  As part of this campaign?

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I have nothing to do with that.  You‘re talking about...

MATTHEWS:  Well, the people helping you.

SCHWARZENEGGER:  No, no, but you‘re talking about probably the organizations that are putting the ballots out there. 

MATTHEWS:  Right.  Sure.

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I‘m not controlling them.  I have nothing to do with that. 

You see, we have a law that says I cannot have control over those entities. 

MATTHEWS:  OK. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  They are putting the initiatives out there. 

MATTHEWS:  OK. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Some of them, I will support and some of them I will endorse and I will be doing fund-raising for and all those things.  But I don‘t do employ people...

MATTHEWS:  OK.  I have one problem.  Why are nurses not—why are nurses special interests and drug companies are not?  Aren‘t drug companies special interests? 

(CROSSTALK)

(APPLAUSE)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Chris, Chris, Chris, not nurses, nurses union.  Get it straight.  It is not the nurses.  It is the unions that I‘m against.  Now, let me ask you a question.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

MATTHEWS:  Do you know what we have outside here.  We have nurses outside here, real live nurses. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I understand, but let me just explain to you. 

Anyone that is putting a wedge between a legislator or a politician, that is supposed to make decisions on behalf of the people, and the people is a special interest.  If it is a union or if it is a drug company, it makes no difference.  All of them are special interests, because they‘re looking out for themselves. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  OK. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  The important thing is that the unions and special interests are putting five -- $200 million against me this year.  They‘re trying to take me out so that there is no change and there is no reform. 

So, what I am doing is, I‘m raising money out there so that we can put the television spots and the radio spots and communicate with the people, so we can confront them, because they are spending much more money than we ever can raise.  So, no one is talking about them, how much money that they are spending to take us out. 

We will create the reform.  We will raise the money and we are going to be victorious in the end.  This will be the year of reform for California. 

MATTHEWS:  OK. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  And I have always said, if the special interests push me around, I will push back.  That‘s what we‘re going to do.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

MATTHEWS:  OK.  We‘re coming back with Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger at Stanford University, more questions from the audience here, only on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

MATTHEWS:  We‘re back with Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. 

The front page of “USA Today” and the big story in Washington, where I work regularly, is the baseball teams.  And the U.S. Congress has asked them to testify, seven players or so.  A number of players say they are going to testify about what they‘ve seen.  Do you think that‘s appropriate in terms of drug use? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I think that we have to do something about the drug use in sports.  And I think it does send the wrong message to our children that admire all the athletes and all this.  And this is—even in our own sport, in bodybuilding, we‘ve been fighting about this situation for years. 

And the trick always is, is, it is easier said than done. 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Because, for every test that you do, the drug companies come up with another product that you can‘t detect. 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  So you have to get around all this.  But we do random rests.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  We do saliva tests on horses before and after the race, because there‘s money on it.

SCHWARZENEGGER:  But the horses don‘t—are not into kind of tricking the drug companies or the tests. 

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  They just stand there. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  ... trainers are.

SCHWARZENEGGER:  They just stand there, you see.  You have to understand. 

MATTHEWS:  OK. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  So, you can‘t—you can‘t compare those athletes with horses.  Everyone is trying to beat the system.  And the drug companies try to beat the system. 

So—but I think that it is good to get into that and to talk about it and to raise the awareness that there‘s a problem there.  And the more you work together on trying to get rid of it, rather than pointing fingers...

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  The worst thing is if you point fingers and if you start blaming everyone.  Let‘s get together, all the sports, the various different sports, and come up with ways of how to test and how to also get rid of it in the schools. 

MATTHEWS:  Do you think it‘s fair for a guy to have a big number in the history books for hitting so many home runs, when he did it because he was on steroids? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Well, I think it has nothing to do with that, because I think that, if you take the steroids away, you will still have the same winners.  If you take it away from everybody, you still have the same winners.  It makes a difference.  The same was in bodybuilding.  All it does is for everyone to reduce the performance...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  No, but, historically, if you take away the steroids, sure the guy will hit the ball to the warning track.  It is not going over the wall every time.  This is about strength, isn‘t it?

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Let me ask you—well, but let me ask you something. 

If you have, in the old days, a pole vaulter that has had a regular wooden pole. 

MATTHEWS:  Yes.  Sure. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  And now they have the most sophisticated poles that bent all the way around. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  That spring the athlete over that and flip it over that high point, is that fair? 

(CROSSTALK)

SCHWARZENEGGER:  In the old days, they didn‘t have spikes on their shoes to run and now they have spikes. 

MATTHEWS:  What about the player that went out there in the field and didn‘t use them?

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Look, it doesn‘t matter.  The reality of it is, is there will always be new technology and new ways and you will be outdoing the old performance and all this. 

MATTHEWS:  Are steroids bad for you? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  What?

MATTHEWS:  Are they bad for you? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Steroids can have side effects, if people don‘t do it under supervision with a doctor.  I‘ve seen people in our own sports that have died because of it. 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  That have had side effects, health side effects. 

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  So I think that we should let the kids know. 

When my son comes to me and says I want to be a football player or a bodybuilder or lifter, whatever, wrestler, I would say to him, I would say, do whatever you can.  Train hard.  Do the five hours a day.  Have the discipline.  Do everything you can, but don‘t take drugs because they‘re illegal and they‘re not to be taken and they have side effects. 

MATTHEWS:  OK, thank you, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, for this whole hour. 

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS:  And tomorrow—a special—I want to do a special thank you to Stanford University, where may wife went to school and got her degree.

And, tomorrow, a big name, not as big as him, maybe, Clint Eastwood, Academy Award winner, “Million Dollar Baby.” 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  Oh, very nice.

MATTHEWS:  And you liked that movie, right? 

SCHWARZENEGGER:  I love it. 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

MATTHEWS:  And then, on Wednesday, the man who secretly taped George Bush before his presidential run, Doug Wead, in an exclusive interview.

Right now, it‘s time for Keith. 

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

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