updated 3/28/2005 1:24:07 PM ET 2005-03-28T18:24:07

Guest: Bobby Schindler, Larry Klayman, Randall Terry, Cheryl Casone, Paul O‘Donnell, Kendall Coffey, Sanfield Forseth, Michelle Steger, Mark Rosen

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Tonight, 10 days without food or water.  Time and options are running out for Terri Schiavo, as her family continues fighting to save her life.  But as she receives Easter communion inside, the faithful outside vow to keep fighting.  But for how long?  The Schindler family today asking protesters to go home.  But supporters say they are going all the way to Washington, D.C.

And what about the politicians?  Will Florida Governor Jeb Bush take the extraordinary step some are demanding?  Will he defy a court order to save Terri Schiavo? 

A special two-hour edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, the Terri Schiavo story right now. 

Welcome to this special edition of “Scarborough Country,” the Terri Schiavo case.  I‘m Joe Scarborough in Pensacola, Florida. 

Tonight, we have been monitoring this case all weekend.  And for the next two hours, we‘re going to bring you the very latest breaking news.  With me now from outside Terri Schiavo‘s hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, is my colleague, Lisa Daniels. 

Lisa, update us with the very latest. 

LISA DANIELS, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT:  Sure, Joe.  I can tell you that emotions here seem to be running very high.  And you can really sense, Joe, that things are about to reach a boiling point.  That said, the day began on a very peaceful note with an early Morning Prayer service right behind me right beyond these orange fences, right outside the hospice. 

Many of those gathered were concerned that Terri Schiavo‘s religious rights were being violated, because at the time she was not allowed to receive communion as her parents had asked for.  And so for the first part of the day, Joe, we witnessed protesters symbolically trying to bring her communion.  In doing so, they tried to cross that police barrier. 

They were promptly arrested, just like we saw a little bit earlier in the week with children.  You will probably remember those incidents.  Several kids were arrested when they tried to cross the police barrier, holding glasses of water and crying out literally, “water.”  They, too, were promptly arrested right after that. 

Finally this afternoon, a priest was allowed into the hospice to bring Terri Schiavo communion.  She reported back that her mouth was too dry to receive the communion wafer, but that she did receive sacramental wine.  Now, when the protesters heard that news, we watched as they began cheering and applauding. 

But Joe, I think the most interesting part of the day was at one point when a virtual advisor to the Schindler family asked the protesters to go home and spend more time with their families on this Easter Sunday.  When many of those people stayed, that‘s when things turned pretty tense.  At one point even violent.  When one protestor gave police a hard time as they arrested him, that‘s when Terri‘s brother Bobby was forced to come out, addressed the crowd, and told them to tone down their behavior. 


BOBBY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO‘S BROTHER:  Our family is just asking.  It‘s not going to help at all to do anything that‘s going to cause anything that‘s going to lead to arrest.  OK?  And we‘re just asking—the cops are here to do a job.  I know you don‘t agree with it, but they are trying their best.  And I‘m just asking for my family.  People just—I don‘t care if you‘re here prayerful and peaceful, but if you can just keep it prayerful and peaceful. 


DANIELS:  Amid all the chaos today, Bobby and the rest of the Schindler family made several visits to see Terri. 

As far as the mood here, Joe, the crowd is very charged.  And they have made it very clear that they are not going anywhere.  Periodically, the police get on their bullhorns and they tell the crowd to move back or get off the hospice driveway. 

The Schindler family, through various representatives, has told us their last hope is only with Florida Governor Jeb Bush.  They want him to intervene and save Terri.  Right now, the crowd behind me is very peaceful.  We aren‘t seeing the candlelight vigils as we saw yesterday, but just various chants.  And every once in a while, Joe, they actually break into song. 

So that‘s the scene here.  Back to you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thanks a lot, Lisa. 

We‘re going to be back down with Lisa.  We‘re going to have an awful lot more tonight, including an interview with Randall Terry. 

Now, let me tell you something.  There has been a controversy going on today.  The Schindlers‘ attorney got on national news this morning, told America that Terri Schiavo may be past the point of no return.  That prompted a very angry response from members of the family and also their spokespeople.  We‘re going to be talking to Randall Terry in just a little bit.  They are denying that assertion. 

We‘re going to get you the straight story when this special report on Terri Schiavo continues in just a minute.  


SCARBOROUGH:  As we have said earlier, Terri Schiavo is now in her 10-day without food and water.  This morning, her family‘s attorney said she is nearing the end of her life. 


DAVID GIBBS, SCHINDLER FAMILY ATTY.:  Terri is declining rapidly.  We believe she has at this point passed where physically she would be able to recover.  They have begun to give her morphine drip for the pain.  And at this point, we would say Terri has passed the point of no return. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Now, that view strongly denied by others who are very close to her family.  Right now, I‘m joined by one of them, Randall Terry who is, of course, of Operation Rescue.  He‘s a spokesman for the Schindler family. 

Randall, we appreciate you being with us tonight.  Again, when that statement was made by Mr. Gibbs this morning on “Face the Nation,” a lot of people were surprised, thought it was breaking news.  But actually you and the family deny that strongly, don‘t you? 

RANDALL TERRY, PARENT‘S SPOKESPERSON:  Absolutely.  The family knew nothing about that.  And when I told—I had to be the unfortunate bearer of bad news.  And I told them.  And they were shocked.  They were angry and wanted it corrected immediately.  So I went out and did a press conference and told them what I will tell you now. 

And that is that Bob went in to see her this morning, which is probably 12 hours after David saw her.  And when he went in, he bumped the bed accidentally, and Terri started, her eyes opened.  And when she saw that it was her father, she smiled at him.  Bob bent down, kissed her and talked with her.  And she tried to talk back as she does.  But she‘s so week it is just coming out as a whisper now.  But she is still conscious and still responsive. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Randall, we have been talking all week about what has been going on in the Schiavo case, obviously what‘s going on in Florida.  Today, of course, you have the Schindlers coming out and asking the crowd to disperse.  They don‘t listen, though. 

It seems like the intensity level is rising there outside of Terri‘s hospice center.  Talk about the atmosphere down there and what you think is next in the battle to save Terri Schiavo‘s life. 

TERRY:  All right.  First of all, for point of clarity, the family never asked everyone to leave.  There was a poorly worded statement that was issued by somebody else.  That what Bob and Mary were trying to communicate was go to Mass.  It‘s Easter.  Go be with your family for Mass. 

Many of these people have traveled from all over the state of Florida.  We‘re probably at least 20, maybe as high as 30 different states that are represented with the crowd here.  So they can‘t go home to their family because their family is 10 states away.  So they are here and they intend to stand here and vigil until Terri is either rescued or departs this life. 

Now, to the second part of your question is where do we—someone is yelling in the background, Joe.  So I‘m going to put my finger in my ear. 

We‘re now, No. 1, still focusing on Jeb Bush.  No. 2, Rev. Mahoney is going to be in D.C.  They‘re going to hold a protest and press conference at the White House at noon tomorrow, and then go to speaker of the House Hastert‘s office.  And really hold their feet to the fire on these subpoenas that were issued.  Because tomorrow, March 28, that‘s the day Terri was supposed to testify.  That‘s the day they subpoenaed her for. 

And this caused so much hope to rise in the family‘s heart.  And then real anger because did they do it as a political stunt?  Or was it a bluff?  Or did they intend to enforce those subpoenas?  So Rev. Mahoney...

SCARBOROUGH:  And of course, we want to know what you‘re talking about...

TERRY:  ... issued these subpoenas, now enforce them. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Just to give a little background to our audience.  Obviously sometime back, the Government Reform Committee in the House of Representatives issued subpoenas for Terri and her husband to come to Capitol Hill.  They expected that to at least make the judge in Florida understand that Terri needed to be protected.  That‘s a requirement. 

When somebody is subpoenaed, it‘s everybody‘s responsibility to make sure they are delivered safely to Washington D.C.  That was ignored by Judge Greer, ignored by other Florida state officials. 

Now, let‘s talk specifics.  Obviously, Governor Jeb Bush came out today... 

TERRY:  But you know what, Joe?  I should jump in here with one point

here.  Larry Klayman, who you saw some of his footage earlier, he actually

was a prosecutor with the Department of Justice.  And he just did a press

conference about an hour and a half ago and said what Greer did was

actually obstruction of justice.  ‘

And so here now we have a judge who has told the entire federal Congress to go to hell, told the president of the United States he doesn‘t care what they think, told Jeb Bush that legislature here.  He has just dismissed everybody.  By defying those subpoenas, Larry Klayman‘s contention is that he actually broke the law. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, that actually was Tom DeLay‘s contention after Judge Greer ignored the subpoenas.  And actually, Tom DeLay said they were going to aggressively go after this judge because of it.  It will be very interesting to see what happens tomorrow. 

But let‘s talk about tonight.  Jeb Bush said he has done all he can do.  He doesn‘t have the constitutional power to take any more steps to save Terri Schiavo‘s life.  Tonight, what does the family expect?  And what does the crowd behind you expect Jeb Bush to do that he hasn‘t already done? 

TERRY:  As the chief executive of this state—and by the way, Joe, I have to turn down my earpiece when I start talking.  So I will answer this as concisely as possible, then I will turn it back up. 

As the chief executive of this state, he has sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution.  The Constitution guarantees disabled people the right to life.  He also swore an oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution and the laws of the state of Florida.  The statutory law gives DCF, the Department of Children and Family, the authority to intervene in this case. 

Judge Greer has ordered the governor to not follow the statutes that were in place by the legislature.  But Jeb Bush swore an oath to uphold the law and to uphold the Constitution.  So it is vested in him as the governor the authority to intervene and save her life, no matter what Judge Greer says. 

Because we have three separate but equal branches of government, he is equal to Judge Greer.  He is not beneath Judge Greer.  He doesn‘t have is to can Judge Greer permission to uphold the law.  He needs to just come in and take Terri.  It‘s that simple. 

And there are a lot of attorneys, good attorneys: Larry Klayman, people that—Herb Titus, the guy from the Thomas Moore Law Center.  I forgot his name.  They are attorneys and they‘re saying that Jeb Bush does have the authority.  So you have some on one side saying he doesn‘t.  Others saying he doesn‘t.  You know what?  Err on the side of justice and life, Mr. Governor. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You have got—obviously, you have got unfettered access to Terri Schiavo‘s parents.  The Schindlers have been very upset this week.  Understandably, so many Americans enraged by what‘s going on.  Tell us tonight what is their attitude?  Where are they emotionally?  Have they given up the fight?  Or are they more determined than ever to try to save their daughter‘s life? 

TERRY:  They are absolutely determined.  They are not giving up this fight, which is why they wanted us to correct that statement this morning about David—what David Gibbs said on TV.  And they are pleading with Governor Bush.  They are turning us loose.  They have basically said to us we‘re very upset.  We‘re very disappointed that Governor Bush has not intervened, but we still believe he has the authority to do so. 

And they are asking me and their proxies just continue to call on the governor to intervene, to not let up. 


TERRY:  And you know there is a God in heaven who does miracles.  And I am convinced that Jeb Bush‘s conscience is haunting him.  And Joe, when you and I were kids, when Jeb was a kid, the stories that captivated us were the ones where the hero took risks, put himself in danger and then he came in and saved the day. 

We had a little boy come up, a 5-year-old boy, and gave his favorite doll to give to Terri.  We saw yesterday two 10-year-old children arrested trying to bring Terri a glass of water.  If a 5-year-old can give his best for Terri and two children can risk arrest for Terri, can‘t Jeb Bush give his best and take some risks for this woman, too? 

One final question, you said that the Schindlers asked all their proxies to go out and fight, and try to get Jeb Bush to save their daughter‘s life.  Is David Gibbs still one of those proxies or have they fired Mr. Gibbs because of his statement, saying that Terri Schiavo...

TERRY:  No, they have not fired him.  No. 

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  All right.  Randall Terry, thanks a lot.  We appreciate your time as always.  We‘ll be back with you, I‘m sure, very soon. 

Now, when this special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns, we‘re going to have my interview with the Brian Schiavo, the brother of Michael Schiavo.  It‘s explosive.  You‘re not going to want to miss it. 



SCARBOROUGH:  And we‘re back.  This is a special edition obviously tonight of the Terri Schiavo case. 

You know, throughout this entire case, Michael Schiavo has been the center of controversy.  He‘s remained by his wife‘s side.  And his family says they are not going to be speaking to the press right now out of respect to Terri. 

One of the last times the family did speak out, though, was right here on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY on Thursday night.  Brian Schiavo explained to me why his brother was so adamant about taking Terri off of her feeding tube. 


BRIAN SCHIAVO, MICHAEL SCHIAVO‘S BROTHER:  He committed to her, he promised her that he would not let her lay like this, as she did for him.  If it was in the other—you know, if she was—if he was lying in that state, she—he told me that they had the commitment that that would not happen.  And she wouldn‘t let him lie like that.  So it‘s about commitment.  Maybe if we had a little more commitment between people, there would be a lot more marriages that held together in this country. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Do you think he‘s going to try to attend, or will you or any family members try to attend her funeral? 

SCHIAVO:  Oh, I definitely will.  Terri, I was very close to Terri.  Terri was a good friend of mine.  And that‘s one of the reasons that I have been speaking out because she is my friend.  I‘m also speaking out, obviously, for my brother.  But I‘m here to speak for Terri also.  Nobody is speaking for her on this side of it. 

You know, it‘s been adjudicated.  You know, everybody said—this thing has been—why do you think this thing has gone on so long?  Because Judge Greer has given the Schindlers and their representation all the time in the world.  He has entertained every frivolous motion that has come across his desk. 

And for them to say that they didn‘t have a fair chance at this.  I mean, Mr. Schindler has come out and said earlier that Judge Greer and my brother were in conspiracy against he and his family.  I mean just really, really strange things.  But that‘s why this has gone on so long is because Judge Greer has been very open to everything.  He‘s given everybody an opportunity to say what they want. 

The Schindlers just aren‘t happy with the outcome.  And they just—as judge—as Jeb Bush wants, he just wants a new trial.  Jeb Bush wants the ability to step in as a monarch, if you will, and say look.  I don‘t like what happened.  I‘m going to change the rules for my benefit. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Well, of course, he‘s not acting like a monarch.  In fact, he‘s acting like a governor who can‘t do anything. 

And the battle continues politically and legally.  And with the legal and political battles seeming to be reaching its end, though, attention is now focused on Woodside Hospice where Mrs. Schiavo is in her 10-day without food and water. 

Let‘s turn back there to Pinellas Park and my colleague Lisa Daniels who is standing by outside that hospice. 

Lisa, what do you have? 

DANIELS:  All right, Joe.  Well, any discussion of what this Easter Sunday was like outside the hospice has to begin with the mood.  And nobody is more qualified to do that than our very own NBC‘s Mark Potter, who has been covering the story at the location for about a week and a half. 

Mark, very good to see you.  So tell us about this roller coaster of emotions that you have been seeing over the last week and a half. 

MARK POTTER, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Well, that‘s exactly what it‘s been.  I have been here for 10 days.  The first full day that I was here was the day that the tube was pulled.  And you can imagine that, that was a down day for the family.  Then the mood soared when they saw that Congress was acting, the president was involved.  Congress passed the bill.  Air Force 1 flew the president back early.  He signed the bill.  They were elated. 

They thought for sure by going into federal court.  That their prayers would be answered.  Terri Schiavo would be saved.  Then the judges ruled against them, the moods plummeted.  All the other courts ruled against them.  The Supreme Court, the appellate courts. 

And now despite what we just have heard about how they are not giving up, we would be remiss in saying anything other than they are very down.  They are very upset.  They are going in to see their daughter in the condition that she is in the hospice now.  And it‘s a very, very bad time for them.  They know how close they are and what little they have left. 

DANIELS:  Who is the family blaming?  At first we heard the family—there were rumors swirling, they were blaming their lawyer, David Gibbs.  Then we heard some anger, especially among this crowd directed—some of the anger directed at Governor Jeb Bush. 

POTTER:  That‘s right.  And mostly you hear in the crowd people are angry with Governor Bush because they feel that he‘s the one person left who can do something.  Most of their anger is with the judges.  The judiciary, “judicial tyranny” is the term that has been used by the father, Bob Schindler.  But they are angry with the governor. 

But one point I want to point—one point I want to make is that perhaps the crowd is being a bit unfair.  If it were not for Governor Jeb Bush three years ago, she would have been dead then. 

DANIELS:  Right.  So...

POTTER:  He‘s the one who came back and reinserted the tube.  And that‘s why she is alive today.  And maybe that‘s the reason they are so upset.  He did it once.  And why he can do it again? 

DANIELS:  But from that point of view, they do seem to be taking their cues from the family.  All the representatives who come out and speak to the press and reporters keep on saying Jeb Bush you are our last hope. 

POTTER:  Well, that‘s what they believe and maybe that‘s why they are angry.  But that they may not be taking into accounts that he has laws to obey, too.  A judge told him categorically you cannot bring the state agents in here and take her out of it.  You can‘t do it. 

And for him to order that to be done would put him in violation of the court order.  And that could be very difficult for him on several levels, including political. 

DANIELS:  Go back a week and a half.  And if you could, explain to us the difference in the crowds from when you first came here to today.  Because even in the two days we have been here, it seems like a very different crowd. 

POTTER:  At first the crowds were the most faithful, the most dedicated to this cause.  And they are still here.  But now today we saw a different character in the crowd.  We saw people who came here to yell at the police to call them Nazis, to raise Cain, to create problems. 

And the family is sensitive to that and they don‘t like that.  They do like to have their supporters here.  It supports them emotionally to have them here.  But they are not happy about a lot of the things that are happening.  The arrests, again, the fracases, the screaming, the yelling; that got out of hand today. 

And that‘s why Bobby Schindler, the brother, came out today to ask them to settle down and remember why they are here.  It‘s not about their pet cause that brought them here now.  It‘s about Terri Schiavo who is in the hospice. 

DANIELS:  And that was interesting.  When Bobby Schindler came out, he really told the crowd stop, go home to your families.  We want you to leave.  And yet, we‘ve seen Bob Schindler, the father, go among this crowd and say thank you for your support.  There seems to be two different messages. 

POTTER:  Well, I heard the message.  Brother Paul O‘Donnell came out.  I thought that despite what Randall Terry said a moment ago, I thought his message was extremely clear.  He said tomorrow is Easter.  Go home and spend some time with your family.  Hug your kids.  We know why you need to do that.  Do that for a while, then come back.  That‘s exactly what he said. 

That message was very clear.  And it was understood by most people. 

And some people did that.  Some people celebrated the Easter services here. 

And then a different crowd came back. 

One other point I want to make.  If you want to understand where this family is now, you have to understand that they cannot believe where they are now.  Ten days into having the tube pulled with nothing left to do.  Because they thought for sure that when the U.S. Congress came and passed that law and the president of the United States signed it, two branches of government, of the United States government saying do this, put it into the federal courts, and it was a done deal. 

Yes it went into the federal courts but then the judges knocked it down.  And that‘s what they can‘t fathom.  And if you want to understand their anger, you have to understand that.  They do not believe that judges could stand in the face of the president and Congress.  But that‘s the separation of power.  They don‘t get that.  And of course, given where they are, it‘s their daughter, she is dying, I guess that could be understood.  But that‘s their greatest frustration. 

DANIELS:  And that is where they are venting their anger.  It‘s clearly focused on that. 

NBC‘s Mark Potter.  Great perspective, thank you, Mark. 

POTTER:  Thank you. 

DANIELS:  Joe, we‘ll throw it back to you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Thank you, Lisa.  Thank you, Mark. 

It truly is.  And you can even see—even not being there, you can just see those crowds night by night getting larger, getting more intense.  And quite frankly, some of the signs getting less and less responsible. 

Now, when we come back, we‘re going to be having my interview with Bobby Schindler, talking about what it‘s like possibly losing a daughter who is right now in the process of dying of starvation.  That‘s when our special report on the Terri Schiavo case continues on MSNBC. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Ten days without food or water and almost having every legal option exhausted.  As desperation sets in, police guards against any desperate acts by protesters.  We‘ll be back with a special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY in a minute, but first, here is the latest news that your family needs to know. 

CHERYL CASONE, MSNBC ANCHOR:  And MSNBC keeps you up-to-the-minute every 15 minutes.  I‘m Cheryl Casone.  Here is the latest.

U.S. troops stationed in Iraq held Easter services Sunday.  They celebrated in shifts at Baghdad‘s Camp Liberty where some 19,000 soldiers from the Third Infantry Division are based. 

It has been a stormy weekend in the southeast with heavy rains, flash floods, and reports of damaging hail.  And that‘s not all.  There are also reports of tornadoes near Montgomery, Alabama. 

Michael Jackson says he is the victim of a conspiracy.  Speaking on the Reverend Jesse Jackson‘s radio show, the King of Pop said he is completely innocent of child molestation charges.  Jackson also denies allegations that he‘s broke.  The singer says, when cleared, he wants to continue with plans to build a resort in Africa. 

And “Guess Who” made out big at the box office this weekend.  Bernie Mac and Ashton Kutcher brought in $21 million with their update of the 1967 classic “Guess Who‘s Coming to Dinner.”

I‘m Cheryl Casone.  You‘re up-to-date.  Now back to a special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  Welcome back to this special weekend edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, the Terri Schiavo case. 

Now, Terri‘s family have asked people to gather outside of her hospice and then asked them go home and spend this Easter holiday with their families.  Many, however, chose to stay, some at risk of being arrested, amongst what‘s become very tight security. 

Lisa Daniels is there outside the Woodside Hospice in Pinellas Park. 

And she joins me again—Lisa?

DANIELS:  All right, well, I‘m joined today by Brother Paul O‘Donnell, the spiritual adviser to the Schindler family.  Thank you so much for being here. 


DANIELS:  So how is Terri doing from what you‘re hearing from the family?

O‘DONNELL:  Well, last night she was having difficulty breathing.  She was gasping for air.  She seems better today.  But she may be given morphine.  We don‘t know, because we don‘t have any access to any medical information.  But she seems to be resting more comfortably today than yesterday. 

DANIELS:  How is the family doing?  The last time we saw Bob Schindler and the family they looked clearly exhausted.  It was written on their faces.  They looked tired.  We saw Terri‘s brother, Bobby Schindler, being very emotional.  How are they holding up?

O‘DONNELL:  Well, this is horrific for them.  They are watching Terri be starved to death.  It‘s like, on one hand, they want to be at her side every minute.  And then, on the other hand, it‘s like, “Oh, my God, look what they are doing to her.”  And they can‘t stop it. 

So it‘s just an emotional tug-of-war.  Plus, when they go in to see Terri, they want to be life-giving, life affirming, positive, loving family members, to not let her know there is a care in the world, and then they have to come out to the reality of what‘s going on. 

DANIELS:  The crowd seems to be getting a bit of a mixed message.  And I want to clarify this. 


DANIELS:  You were standing one foot away from me last night and you said, “Listen, the Schindlers are not going to speak to you.  We want you to go home.  Have a great Easter.  Spend some time with your family.”  Then I‘d say ten minutes later, maybe fifteen minutes later, Bob Schindler, Terri‘s father, comes out, thanks the crowd for being here, and seemed to encourage them to stay.  So the protesters that I have talked to don‘t know what to do. 

O‘DONNELL:  Right.  Well, the message that I was asked to give was for the family to spend time together, to go to church, and then to come back and keep vigil.  But somewhere along the line, somebody—you know, like I said, I‘m representing the family.  And there is four main individuals.  And this is a very emotional time.

And try to take everything that they say from anger and emotion and put it all together and deliver what, you know, I feel they want said.  And I feel I did that, exactly what they wanted me to say.  However, there are a lot of people from around the country that can‘t go home because they have flown here to be with Terri. 

DANIELS:  How does the schedule work?  I‘m trying to think of the reality.  We hear that Michael Schiavo is spending a lot of time at this hospice.  At the same time, we know the Schindlers are visiting their daughter on a regular basis.  What is the coordination between the Schindlers and the Schiavos?  How do they know when the family is coming so Michael‘s family can leave?

O‘DONNELL:  They don‘t.  I don‘t know exactly where Michael Schiavo is.  I assume that they might have a guest quarters here so that he‘s able to be on the premises.  When he‘s in the room with Terri, they are not allowed in.  He can suspend visitation rights at any time.  He can say, “I want to spend 10 hours with Terri,” and then the family has no access. 

But they are also denied information.  So when they go and approach the police, “Can we go see our daughter?”  They don‘t know, if they are turned away, that she has had a heart attack, she is in her final hours, or whether Michael is in there.  They are not given any information. 

DANIELS:  When Terri does pass—and that does seem to be a likelihood in the next week or two weeks if nothing changes—are you predicting a fight over her burial versus cremation?  Will this fight continue?

O‘DONNELL:  Well, I don‘t know if the official court papers have been signed, but I know the family would like to have a Catholic wake and a Catholic funeral.  And in our tradition, we would have the body present at the liturgy, and then cremation take place. 

Michael Schiavo wants her cremated immediately.  And then the judge has basically said that he has possession of her body, so he can do whatever he wants.  Now, he says he wants to bury her in Pennsylvania, but this judge doesn‘t have any jurisdiction on what goes on in Pennsylvania.  And the family has no guarantee. 

Also in our tradition, the remains need to be in a dignified place.  We don‘t believe in scattering ashes or sending them up in a balloon or anything like that.  It has to be dignified. 

DANIELS:  All right.  Brother Paul O‘Donnell, spiritual adviser to the Schindler family, a big thank you for being here today.  We appreciate it. 

O‘DONNELL:  Thank you.

DANIELS:  And Joe, we‘ll throw it back to you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Lisa, I was wondering if Brother O‘Donnell could answer this question.  I was curious.  We heard this morning that actually the Schiavo family was not going to allow Terri to receive Easter communion today.  If he could talk to us briefly about what happened there and why they changed their mind. 

DANIELS:  All right. 

Joe is asking you if you could explain to us if indeed, as we‘ve heard, Terri has had communion given to her?  And if the Schiavos have changed their mind, is that why she was able to get that communion?

O‘DONNELL:  We made the request.  It was in the judge‘s order that she could have this when death was imminent, but since no one knows when the hour of death is and it was Easter, we made the request that she be given it on Easter. 

She was allowed to receive a drop of the consecrated wine on her tongue about 3:15 Florida time, but it was a fight to get that done.  And the priest that went in to do it basically had to be escorted by a hospice chaplain.  And the priest was allowed to administer, but the hospice chaplain had to have his hand on top.  It didn‘t make any sense.  It‘s a power play over the spiritual. 


DANIELS:  And, Joe, you should have seen the crowd react to that when they heard the news that she did get the communion.  They clapped.  They applauded.  They were very, very happy. 

Back to you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thanks, Lisa. 

I‘ll tell you, when I heard the news this morning, I‘ve got to tell you, friends, I was shocked that they were causing such a big stir, that Michael Schiavo would not allow his wife that he supposedly loves so much to get a drop of wine on her tongue. 

And as the brother said, they had this big power play.  They initially refused to allow her to get communion on Easter Sunday.  I have got to ask what was the big deal?

Well, let‘s go from the spiritual to the legal.  And here to weigh in on whether the governor has a legal authority to save Terri Schiavo‘s life is Kendall Coffey.  He is, of course, former U.S. attorney for the southern district of Florida. 

Mr. Coffey, thanks for being with us tonight.  You have seen the crowds.  Anybody that thinks that this whole incident is playing to Governor Jeb Bush‘s benefit is not reading the signs in the crowd.  Is there anything tonight that you believe Governor Bush could do to save Terri Schiavo‘s life?

KENDALL COFFEY, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY:  There is nothing further he can do.  And we can all understand the frantic sense of frustration.  We can also understand the public‘s sense the governors have so much power.  In most states, the governor can spare the life of the killer.  Why can‘t this governor save an innocent woman?

But the reality is, Joe, time and time again, he has tried to do things, and time again the courts have said he is going too far, he has been trying to go beyond his power.  So, clearly, he has done everything a governor of Florida can do if he is to be respecting our laws, which he must. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Kendall, everybody in the crowd also seems to be angry with the judges, the judiciary system.  I have got to tell you, everybody that I have talked to outside of Manhattan and Washington, D.C., seems to believe this is a prime example of the judiciary out of control.  They don‘t understand how a single Circuit Court judge in central Florida can trump the desires of the president, Congress, the governor.  Explain how that happens. 

COFFEY:  Well, that‘s another source of frustration, although, in fairness, it‘s more than a single judge.  Every detail of the testimony he considered, with respect to the medical controversy, was carefully considered by an appellate panel.  And we all know time and time again different judges have weighed in.  None of them have sought to intervene. 

The reality is, it‘s separation of powers.  Judges can‘t tell presidents how to conduct war.  They can‘t tell Congress whether to raise taxes.  And whether or not we agreed with the decisions of our judges, the legislative and the executive branches can‘t intervene in a particular case to reverse the judicial verdict.  Governor Bush may be able to veto legislation, but he cannot veto judicial decisions in specific cases. 

SCARBOROUGH:  But Kendall, at the same time, haven‘t all those appellate judges granted great deference to Judge Greer‘s decisions, again coming out of his local court in central Florida and figured he was the finder of fact?  And he found that there was clear and convincing evidence out there, something that I disagree with.  But he has decided that there is clear and convincing evidence out there that Terri Schiavo wanted to die.  Haven‘t they all deferred to him as the finder of fact?

COFFEY:  Well, you make a very good point.  In large part, what the other judges have done have been just to examine whether there was a basic minimal fairness, not whether they agree with the result, but whether the constitutional minimums were observed. 

The one qualification I would make, Joe, is in a key appeal, the three judges that looked at the medical issue—which is really the transcendent issue here—the big question is, is she in a condition where she could get better? 

And that particular issue was in effect separately and independently examined by three appellate judges who said they reviewed the videos, they have studied every word of it, and that they would have reached the same conclusion as Judge Greer.  No matter how painful it was personally for them as parents, they had to obey the law.  They can‘t rule with their hearts.  They have to rule with the law. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now let‘s move from the medical side of this to the side involving the testimony.  And probably what‘s at the heart of this controversy more than anything else is the judge saying he found clear and convincing evidence that Terri Schiavo told Michael Schiavo that she wanted to die this way if she were ever in a vegetative state or semi-vegetative state. 

A lot of people are saying, “Wait, this guy is an interested witness.”  He has been practically remarried.  He has got a couple kids from his girlfriend.  And he just claims, seven years after the fact, that Terri told him, “Hey, if I‘m in this condition, I want to die.” 

Should we allow somebody to die this way when you only have one interested witness?  I know that‘s a leading question, but that‘s what I‘m hearing people ask time and time again. 

COFFEY:  No, it‘s one of the key questions.  Because, as you diagnosed it, that really was the basis for the decision. 

But, Joe, so many of our court cases, criminal cases, civil cases, divorce cases, can rest on the testimony of a single witness, if that is what the judge believes.  If we feel as a society that that shouldn‘t be enough, that there needs to be something in writing or multiple witnesses, that is something that perhaps, when some of this passion reaches a different point and we‘re able to come back and look at some lessons from this tragedy, legislatures can re-examine. 

But up until now, the most important decisions within our courts can largely be decided on the testimony of a single witness. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Do you suspect any legislation will come out of this case?  Obviously, it‘s going to be a landmark case that students and law schools are going to study for generations.  Do you think any new legislation is going to come out because of it?

COFFEY:  Well, I think many legislatures, certainly Florida‘s, are going to consider some of the issues here.  You identified a very important one:  Should one witness—allegedly a self-serving witness‘ testimony—be enough on something that‘s literally life and death?

And I think, at the same time, one of the other areas that legislatures may examine is whether the conflict of interest issues are sufficiently looked at within the scheme for deciding who is to be a guardian.  Because, as we know, that was one of the recurring and painful sources of controversy here.  Did Michael Schiavo have some element of conflict of interest which should have disqualified him?  I wouldn‘t be surprised if, at some point, legislatures, not only here in Florida but elsewhere, re-examined that system as well. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Kendall Coffey, former U.S. attorney for the southern district of Florida, as always, thanks a lot for being with us. 

COFFEY:  Thanks for including me, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know what?  I think he‘s exactly right.  I think the guardian issue is critical.  So many people believed that when this man went ahead, started dating, got a new girlfriend, had two new kids and moved on and in effect stopped being her husband, well, at that point, the guardianship should have been revoked because he was an interested witness. 

It hasn‘t happened.  And because of it, Terri Schiavo‘s dying tonight.  Now, coming up next, as time runs out for Terri Schiavo, Governor Jeb Bush says he‘s not going to defy a court order and reinsert her feeding tube.  But he has done it before.  When SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns, we‘ll tell you when and how. 


CASONE:  MSNBC keeps you up-to-the-minute every 10 minutes.  I‘m Cheryl Casone with the latest. 

Forecasters say a dangerous weather system is working its way across the southeast.  In Mississippi, a man was hospitalized after a tree and power lines fell on his car.  Officials say the storm has damaged at least 20 homes in the state. 

Monaco marked Easter Sunday with special prayers for ailing Prince Rainier.  The palace says he is conscious but fighting for his life.  The 81-year-old monarch‘s heart, lungs, and kidneys have reportedly stabilized after days of decline. 

And bodyguards for Iraq‘s science and technology minister opened fire today in Baghdad on a crowd of workers demanding their full wages.  One person was killed.  It is unclear why the guards began shooting. 

Now back to a special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  Welcome back to this special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, talking about the Terri Schiavo case. 

Let‘s go back down to central Florida out in Pinellas Park where my colleague, Lisa Daniels, is standing by. 

Lisa, what do you have?

DANIELS:  All right, Joe.  Well, joining me now, Captain Sanfield Forseth from the Pinellas Park Police Department. 

Captain, thanks so much for being with us today. 


DANIELS:  Over the weekend, this crowd seems to be a little more rowdy.  There seems to be more of a charge in the air.  Do you agree with that assessment?

FORSETH:  Yes, over the past few days, there have been periods of time throughout the day that the crowd has shown more frustration, some more hostilities.  They have been more vocal, not just within themselves, but towards police.  And we have noticed that occurring over the past couple of days. 

DANIELS:  And how come you know that?  What are you sensing from the crowd?  Are they openly threatening police officers?

FORSETH:  Generally, no, not open threats, but a lot of chatter amongst the crowd directed toward the police.  We‘ve beefed up security a little bit in response to that.  We have had five arrests today. 

DANIELS:  And one of them was pretty violent. 

FORSETH:  Well, it was out of the ordinary from our normal arrests.  We have made 38 so far since the situation began.  Thirty-seven of those have been all cooperative.  The people were wanting to make a statement.  They wanted to be arrested.  They were very respectful and cooperative during the arrests. 

One of them today, the gentleman did become more tense with us when the officers tried to affect the arrest.  He did tense up with the officers instead of cooperating.  He was a little bit uncooperative.  And that‘s the first—that‘s the first time.

DANIELS:  That was the first of that.  Yesterday, we saw this whole area go into lockdown mode.  No cars allowed in, no cars allowed out, except for press.  What sparked you to do that move?

FORSETH:  Well, any time we‘re going to affect an arrest or we sense a problem within the crowd that needs to be addressed, we‘re going to go to lockdown, which means the buildings going to be shut, nobody‘s going to enter or leave the hospice building.  And we also have a checkpoint here on this roadway, which means nobody is coming into the checkpoint until we address that problem. 

And that will happen any time we are affecting an arrest.  It provides safety for our officers.  We don‘t know if the arrest itself is a diversion, so we‘re on a heightened alert when there is a problem or we detect a problem within the crowd. 

DANIELS:  Is there a plan in place if Terri dies in the next week? 

Will you be stepping up security?

FORSETH:  The possibility is we will be stepping up security.  That‘s an unknown as to how the people are going to respond to that when that happens.  We have been in discussion with hospice and the family members of how that‘s going to happen and what the wishes are.  It‘s a very complex plan to put something, because there are so many facets of that plan that has to be respected.  And that‘s something that we have been working on every day. 

DANIELS:  All right.  Yes or no:  Are there snipers on the roof, as we have been hearing rumors indicate?

FORSETH:  We have a sufficient security force here.  And we‘ve taken every position that we feel that could be threatened.  I can‘t say specifically what types of people we have here, where they are positioned, but we‘re confident that every area that would threaten the security of this hospice facility has been covered. 

DANIELS:  All right.  You sound confident about that. 

Captain Sanfield Forseth from the Pinellas Park Police Department, thank you, Captain, for being here. 

FORSETH:  Thank you. 

DANIELS:  All right, Joe.  That‘s the scene down here. 

Back to you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, thanks so much. 

I‘ll tell you what.  We‘ll be right back in a second with a special Sunday night edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, talking about the Terri Schiavo case.  Stick around.  We‘ll be back in a minute.


SCARBOROUGH:  As I mentioned earlier, this morning, David Gibbs, lead attorney for Terri Schiavo‘s parents said, quote, “At this point we would say that Terri is past the point of no return.”  Now, we‘ve also heard from Randall Terry tonight, a spokesperson for the Schindler family.  He disagrees. 

The reports may vary, but one fact is indisputable:  That family is in great pain.  Now, Bobby Schindler, Terri‘s brother, opened up about the family‘s emotional battle. 


BOBBY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO‘S BROTHER:  We‘re not coping very well right now.  You know, I have said over and over, this is horrific.  It‘s heinous what‘s happening to my sister.  It‘s not peaceful.  It‘s not painless. 

You know, I said earlier, I would like for all the people that believe that Congress, and the governor, and the president have done the wrong thing to go in and look at my sister right now.  This is an image that will be with me the rest of my life, you know, if and when my sister does pass away this way. 

I won‘t just forget about it.  My parents aren‘t going to just forget about it.  This is an image, in a way, that my parents will have to remember the rest of their life.  A human being is being slowly starved to death and dehydrated.  Sometimes I wonder if people aren‘t understanding or processing what‘s happening here. 

You know, we are slowly killing a human being over the course of 7-14 days.  I wish the judge would have to be in there and sitting—all these judges—to be sitting there right now, and looking at my sister, and watching her go through this process.  They might feel differently about the way they have been ruling these last five years. 

I‘m angry right now.  And, you know, I‘m angry that my mom and dad and my sister, particularly Terri, has to be going through this.  If anyone was in Terri‘s place, she would be sitting here right now doing this interview fighting just as hard for us as we have been fighting for her. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Heartbreaking words from Bobby Schindler.

You know, we‘re going to hear a lot more from him in our next hour.  And much more as our special live coverage continues in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, along with Lisa Daniels.  Stay tuned.  We‘ll be right back on the other side of the top of the hour.


SCARBOROUGH:  Tonight, as she begins her 10th day without food or water, hope is fading for Terri Schiavo and desperation mounting for the family.  But as one spokesman says, she is past the point of no return. 

Terri‘s parents say not so fast, the man doesn‘t speak for the family.  But one thing is certain, without food, without water, that point of no return is coming sooner rather than later. 

Emotion, tempers and rhetoric, all running high among the supporters tonight in Pinellas Park.  The Schindler family today asks for calm, but the police are prepared for the worst. 

And the death of Terri Schiavo: Is it going to really be peaceful?  A sort of fading away that some have claimed or will it be the brutal, painful starvation that others have argued?  We‘re going to give you the real deal tonight with a medical expert who is going to take you inside the process. 

A special two-hour edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, the Terri Schiavo Story continues right now. 

Welcome to our special weekend edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, the Terri Schiavo Case. 

Good evening.  I‘m Joe Scarborough live in Pensacola, Florida.  Tonight, just down the coast from here in Pinellas Park, Terri Schiavo has entered her 10th day without the feeding tube that‘s kept her alive for the past 15 years.  With me from outside the Woodside Hospice in Pinellas Park tonight, my colleague, Lisa Daniels—Lisa. 

DANIELS:  All right, Joe.  Let‘s set the scene for you.  At this hour right now, the protesters are here at the orange fence.  They are holding up signs like murder, another sign says “Jeb, be a hero.”  “Terri is aware.”  “Terri is still able to choose.”  That‘s the scene right now. 

But moments of relative peace bookending this highly charged day.  The morning began with Easter prayers outside the hospice right here.  Many protesters were very concerned that Terri Schiavo was not getting the same chance to worship since she would not be receiving any communion as her parents had hoped.  That‘s why during the first part of the day we witnessed a lot of protesters symbolically trying to bring her communion.  They were promptly arrested just as we saw earlier in the week, Joe, with those children who were trying to carry in water. 

But late this afternoon, a priest was allowed to bring Terri Schiavo communion.  He told the crowd that her mouth was too dry to receive the communion wafer, but that she did receive the sacramental wine. 

But Joe, perhaps the most surprising part of the day perhaps was the tension and violence that we saw.  A spiritual adviser for the family had asked the protesters to leave, spend Easter with your families, he told them.  Many of the protesters chose to stay right here. 

The tension is growing throughout the day.  One protester even gave police a pretty hard time as they arrested him.  That‘s when Terri‘s brother Bobby came out here, spoke to the crowd, and told the crowd to quiet down. 



·         it is not going to help at all to do anything that‘s going to cause anything that‘s going to lead to arrests, OK.  And we‘re just asking to—you know the cops are here to do a job.  I know you don‘t agree with it, but they are trying their best.  And I‘m just asking for my family people just --  I don‘t care if you‘re prayerful and peaceful.  But we can just keep it prayerful and peaceful. 


DANIELS:  And really the crowd didn‘t listen.  They made it very clear they are not planning to go anywhere. 

As for the Schindlers, they keep visiting Terri today despite the chaos.  The family, through various representatives, telling us they still hope that Governor Bush will intervene on their behalf. 

And I have to tell you the protesters are not shy.  They will come up to you, Joe, if you are trying to do an interview, try to intervene, try to get you to see other people.  Or if you try to approach the family, they will actually try to hold you back so that you don‘t approach the family.  They believe that the press is bothering them at this final hour.  They want Terri to be left in peace as the family. 

Joe, that‘s the scene.  Back to you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Lisa, talk about, if you will, take us inside of that crowd.  Who‘s there?  We‘ve seen a lot of young kids.  It looks like there is some middle-class types out there.  It looks also like there are some professional pro-life protesters that have come down and made this sort of their Waterloo.  Describe the crowd to us, the demographics, the age, where they are from. 

DANIELS:  Well, first of all, a lot of religious conservatives among this crowd, a lot of people that have very strong faith.  And when you talk to the parents and ask them why they brought their kids, they also will answer you, well, the kids brought me.  So what we are going to show you a little later the parents‘ responses. 

And I asked the children a lot of questions.  What do you know about Terri‘s condition?  Who is Michael Schiavo?  And the answer really does range.  Some of the kids are very up to speed on this situation.  Others really don‘t know why they hate Michael Schiavo.  I asked one child who said they hated Michael Schiavo, why do you hate him so much? 

And she said I don‘t know, but I do hate them. 

To answer your other part of your question, I‘m just looking at the crowd that remains here, there are a good amount of kids here, a lot of them holding up dolls, a lot of them carrying signs.  But I‘d say the majority of them are religious conservatives, and they come from all over the country.  It‘s really amazing.  Some of them have traveled miles to be here—Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thanks a lot, Lisa.  We‘ll be right back down to you. 

Now, the legal battle between Terri Schiavo‘s husband and her parents has been raging now for more than a decade, but it appears that after a series of heart-breaking defeats for Bob and Mary Schindler both in state and federal courts, the litigation of this case may finally be over. 

Pinellas Circuit Court judge George Greer rebuffed the latest appeal yesterday, immediately following the ruling.  The attorney for Terri Schiavo‘s husband Michael had this to say. 


GEORGE FELOS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO‘S ATTORNEY:  I would hope that the parents‘ side realize that any further legal action is going to be futile. 

I mean, we can understand their desperate efforts in this case, but I would

·         I would hope that at some point before Terri‘s death, they leave that behind and begin to try to cope with it more on a personal level. 


SCARBOROUGH:  So have the Schindlers exhausted all legal options in this case?  Is there any law that may permit Governor Bush to intervene?  I‘m joined once again by Schindler family spokesperson and founder of Operation Rescue, Randall Terry. 

Randall, you know we understand there is a dispute on whether she is in her final hours or final days, but Terri Schiavo can‘t have much longer.  I mean, you know, a lot of people have been watching basketball, forgive the metaphor, but time is running out, you‘ve got one more shot.  Is it with the governor or is it with Congress? 

TERRY:  And we‘re going to pursue both of them. 

The dad, Bob Schindler, I talked to him less than a half an hour ago.  He was just in to see Terri along with two aunts, and she is still responding.  I mean Joe, I don‘t know what to call this besides a miracle.  This woman is in her 10th full day without hydration, and she is saying to the world by her existence I want to live.  She can‘t speak normally like the rest of us can, but she is speaking volumes by just hanging on with everything that she has got. 

So the family is not giving up hope at any level.  They are still begging Governor Bush to get involved.  And to take the advice of attorneys such as Larry Klayman who was here earlier who are saying he absolutely does have the authority as the chief executive of this state to intervene, err on the side of life, err on the side of justice, and be a hero. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Randall, we‘ll be talking to Larry Klayman later, but you said something that I know a lot of Americans are intrigued by.  I‘m sure people that don‘t support the feeding tube being reinserted will look at it as a cynical attempt by you to keep this case going. 

But you said, quote, she is still responding.  How is she still responding tonight? 

TERRY:  Well, this morning, when Bob went in to see her, he bumped the bed by mistake when he first got there, and she started and she opened her eyes.  And then her eyes met her dad and she smiled at him.  And Bob bent down and kissed her and talked to her.  And she tried to talk back as she always does, only it was barely coming out as a whisper because she is so weak. 

And Bob did not give me the details of how she was interacting with the aunts that were in there.  But I said is she still conscious?  He said yes.  He said, she is responding to the women that are in the room.  And he had a big grin on his face. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So tomorrow, again...

TERRY:  And this is unbelievable that she is still alive. 

SCARBOROUGH:  There will be people going to Washington, D.C., tomorrow, I understand.  Are you going to talk to?  The speaker, Tom DeLay?  Who is going to be your point person in Congress? 

TERRY:  Pat Mahoney is going to be there, and also the head of Not Dead Yet, which is a disabled rights group.  I forget her name, please forgive me.  She is going to be there tomorrow as well.  And I‘m sure that you‘re going to see a lot of protesters there of disabled people who are there crying out for Terri‘s life. 

And the family is saying Governor Bush, President Bush, Congress—everyone has stood, everyone has said something, some people have saber rattled.  Do you really expect the entire nation to believe that the word of one probate judge can stop the entire federal government, the entire state government of Florida?  This is insane. 

We are asking Tom DeLay, Speaker Hastert, to hold Greer in contempt of Congress for defying those subpoenas and to enforce those subpoenas right now.  Terri was supposed to testify tomorrow before Congress.  Enforce the subpoenas, intervene, save her life.

DANIELS:  Randall, you seem to be raising the bar of the language.  You said earlier that Republican lawmakers will have hell to pay if she dies, people will start losing their jobs.  And then you analogize Florida governor Jeb Bush‘s inability or unwillingness to change the law or do something about this to Nuremberg and to the Nazis.  What are you accomplishing by raising the language like that? 

TERRY:  Because people around the country need to think this through.  If Jeb Bush and the entire state government and the entire federal government cannot intervene to save her life, because it‘s the law, then we need to apologize to the people that we tried at Nuremberg, because Nazi Germany came into power through an election, it came through representative government, they passed laws, and then they enforced those laws and they killed innocent people. 

We tried them after the fact, because what they did was against a higher law, a divine law, human rights, et cetera.  And if what we did at Nuremberg was correct, then Jeb Bush has a moral duty to intervene on behalf of Terri in light of the higher law.  If he‘s not going to intervene because of some two-bit probate judge, then we need to apologize for what we did at Nuremberg, because we had no business for simply obeying the law. 

DANIELS:  All right Joe, I just wanted to ask that question. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thanks for asking that question.  Thank you Randall Terry, for being with us.  I tell you what, yet another Nazi analogy.  It seems like both sides have decided to dredge up Adolf Hitler, the Nazis, the Holocaust, again on both sides of this equation.  Of course, Robert Byrd did it a month back. 

Now coming up, as the inevitable approaches, the family‘s pain, my interview with Terri Schiavo‘s little brother Bobby coming up next. 

And later, a special focus on the protesters gathered there in Pinellas Park.  What did they think they are going to be able to accomplish?  That‘s all ahead on this special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.



SCARBOROUGH:  Welcome back to this special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, The Terri Schiavo Case. 

The family is staying close to her side as much as they can, understandably.  But this family has been very clear all along, they want Terri back with them.  They want to take care of her, and they just can‘t believe what‘s happening to their daughter and their sister. 

On Friday, I spoke with Terri‘s brother, Bobby, and this is what he had to say. 


BOBBY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO‘S BROTHER:  It‘s hard to describe.  I think, you know, people are upset and outraged just as my family is, because they see a disabled woman that for no reason at all is being killed in this manner.  And it just—our family doesn‘t understand why, it doesn‘t make any sense.  And we‘re just trying to do anything we can to save my sister‘s life. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Tell me specifically, Bobby, because I know the governor‘s office is watching this show, I know a lot of other politicians and judges are watching right now.  What do you want Governor Jeb Bush, what do you want the state‘s attorney general, what do you want Florida politicians to do to save your sister‘s life? 

BOBBY SCHINDLER:  Well, you know, legally, I can‘t answer that.  But I know my sister has been abused, she has been neglected, there are circumstances surrounding her collapse, the night she collapsed back in 1990.  And we just fell that legally that the governor can take my sister into protective custody.  And if in fact that is true, we‘re asking, pleading the governor to in fact do so. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Tell me about the circumstances that you‘re discussing regarding her collapse back in 1990. 

BOBBY SCHINDLER:  Well, we still don‘t know.  To this day, we still don‘t know what caused Terri‘s collapse.  Over the past two years, we have gathered a tremendous amount of evidence that indicates that there might have been a violent episode and possibly suggest that Michael could be the reason that Terri is in this condition she is in right now. 

SCARBOROUGH:  In what way?  Are you suggesting that Michael may have abused her?  In a way that put her into a coma? 

BOBBY SCHINDLER:  Well, the night she collapsed, it was only her and Michael at home.  I was the first one to arrive that night.  There is three different accounts by Michael of what actually happened to my sister. 

But really, the smoking gun with what happened that night is there is a bone scan that was taken just 53 weeks after my sister‘s collapse back in 1991.  We didn‘t discover it, our family didn‘t discover this until 2002, and this bone scan indicated that there was broken bones throughout my sister‘s body and the radiologist noted that Terri had a history of trauma. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Let‘s talk about a comment that your parents made earlier.  They talk about judicial homicide, that they believe that the court system in this country was killing your sister.  Talk about that. 

BOBBY SCHINDLER:  Well, there are so many questionable circumstances about my sister‘s condition.  We have doctors, many doctors that believe my sister can be helped if she‘s given a chance.  The courts never afforded her a chance at any type of rehabilitation or therapy.  There is also—you know, as I said, suspicions as far as how she collapsed.  The court never took the time to investigate what might have caused my sister‘s collapse. 

There is serious questions about my sister‘s wishes.  You know, my sister‘s—Michael did not come forward and reveal or petition to anybody that my sister made these wishes until seven years after the fact.  And they were only—and what‘s really important here about my sister‘s wishes, seven years after she collapsed—and they only appeared after he made his intention that he was going to marry another woman. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So did you—you, your parents, your relatives, Terri‘s friends, nobody around her ever heard her say what she allegedly said to her husband, that if this were to happen to her, that she would want a feeding tube removed? 

BOBBY SCHINDLER:  No, never.  Her mom or dad, Suzy, my sister, and myself never heard Terri ever—it was very uncharacteristic of Terri to ever make or state such wishes.  And again, they appeared seven years after her collapse.  And they did not appear when Michael was pleading with a jury back in 1992 that he need $20 million to take care of Terri for the rest of his life.  He intended to care for Terri, bring her home and take care for her by his own testimony.  And there was never any mention of any alleged death wish by Terri when Michael was pleading with the jury that he needed money to care for Terri the rest of her life. 

SCARBOROUGH:  What do you make of Judge Greer, the trial court judge who heard this case in the beginning and said that he found clear and convincing evidence that your sister would not want to live in this sort of state?  And I read that in the court documents.  He uses the term clear and convincing evidence.  What clear and convincing evidence is there that Terri would want to be starved to death the way she is right now? 

BOBBY SCHINDLER:  Well, I just explained it to you.  Seven years after my sister collapsed, Michael petitioned the court that Terri made these alleged death wishes.  There is all these conflicts of interest on behalf of Michael, but yet the judge looked at Terri‘s wishes seven years after the fact and believed they were not only clear but convincing. 

It‘s important to know that there was a guardian ad litem appointed to this case just prior to the trial starting in 2000.  And after the thorough investigation, I believe he spent 3-6 months time frame investigating this case, he found that Michael‘s petition was not credible.  He found that Michael‘s saying that Terri wants to die in this manner was not credible, and recommended that the feeding tube stay in.  This was back in 1999 just before the trial started.  Yet the court disregarded the investigation and instead ruled and had my sister‘s feeding tube removed. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Your father sounded very angry tonight and his anger was directed at Governor Jeb Bush.  Do you and your family not think that he‘s done enough up to this point? 

BOBBY SCHINDLER:  Well, you know, I think you can understand my father‘s and my mother‘s and really our whole family‘s anger at this point.  You know, my sister is going through starvation, dehydration for absolutely no reason at all.  She is disabled.  And we‘re just outraged that something like this can take place, especially at the hands of the court. 

And what we‘re asking is the governor, we‘re told by our legal people that have looked into this that the governor has the power to intercede, and we‘re simply pleading with the governor to intercede and rescue my sister from this horrible and gruesome death that she is undertaking right now. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Any final thoughts that you would like to pass along to America tonight, as so many people across this country are praying for your sister and hoping that there will be a resolution that will save her life. 

BOBBY SCHINDLER:  Well, you know, our family is extremely grateful for all the support and prayers we are receiving.  It‘s really been lifting us up to this.  I mean, it‘s extremely difficult, as you can imagine what we‘re going through, and all the support that we‘re receiving is really—is really the reason that we‘re able to stay strong and just very appreciative for all the prayers and support that we‘re receiving. 


SCARBOROUGH:  And that was part of my conversation with Bobby Schindler, he‘s Terri‘s brother, on Friday.  And the family has now stopped all legal action, but that isn‘t stopping others from trying to persuade the politicians, especially the governor of Florida, to try and help and save Terri Schiavo. 

With me now, I‘m joined with Larry Klayman.  He‘s, of course, the founder of Judicial Watch.  Larry, thanks a lot for being with us. 

So let me ask you what can Jeb Bush do?  Because I have to tell you, Larry, most of the legal experts I talked to say the governor has already taken extraordinary steps, and there is just nothing else that he can do. 

LARRY KLAYMAN, JUDICIAL WATCH:  Joe, absolutely not.  I was in Tallahassee earlier this week, as you know, on behalf of my clients right march and also Declaration of Alliance with my colleague Alan Keyes (ph).  I‘m now in private practice, the Klayman Law Firm.  And I was there for myself. 

And I met with the governor‘s staff.  I met with the general counsel, I met with the chief of staff.  And we have three co-equal branches of government, Joe.  When one branch fails, when it fails to act, the reason that we have checks and balances and our founding fathers were so enlightened in this regard is so another branch can step in.  Now under the Florida constitution, Governor Jeb Bush is the strongest chief executive in this country.  He is the supreme executive of this state. 

And under article 1, he has the duty and the right to protect the living.  I‘m not talking about the unborn.  I want them protected, too.  But there is no question that for people that are on this Earth, he has to protect their lives. 

And under article 2, he has the duty as a separate chief executive to perform his role as governor.  So what I said to them at the time was that you can take action on your own.  Not just under the statute of the Department of Children and Families, but as chief executive under the constitution. 

And you must secure Terri Schiavo, because it, as you say, and I‘m sure it‘s correct, that there is new evidence of potential abuse, then what is the rush in killing Terri Schiavo?  This is not Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City.  This is a human life.  And he has to step up to the plate.  If he‘s unwilling... 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Larry Klayman, OK.  But you know he what, though?  What he would tell you is this, what his legal staff would tell you is this, and so many other people across the country are saying it right now—the governor has done everything he can do.  You have a judge in Central Florida that has put an injunction on Terri Schiavo being removed.  The Miami Herald reported that there were actually state agencies that were going toward a hospice on Thursday night to remove her body.  The police officers told those state officials you will not get through this door unless you have a judge with you. 

So what does the governor do...

Does he ignore the judge‘s injunction? 

KLAYMAN:  You do—the injunction is of no force and effect.  If the governor, Joe, does something which is illegal, then the remedy is impeachment in the legislature, but he would simply be enforcing the constitution.  He has separate powers. 

Governor Bush should be over here with me right now and everybody else.  If he walked up to that hospice, do you honestly believe that these local officials would prevent him from going in and securing Terri Schiavo? 

If he‘s not willing to exercise his powers as governor of the state of Florida, then he should resign, because he has no duty here anymore because he‘s not filling the will of the people. 

Now, I like Jeb Bush.  He was even my first real estate agent in Miami.  I think he‘s done a good job as governor.  But he‘s making a serious mistake here.  And five years ago he made another serious mistake by failing to act with Elian Gonzalez.  And we know what happened in that regard.  He sat there and he watched.  Now is the time for action. 

SCARBOROUGH:  But Larry Klayman, again, I have had Kendall Coffey on earlier tonight, I‘ve talked to legal experts across the country.  And it seems like there are only a few people, and those people are like you and others very close to this case down there, who are saying the governor can do anything.  I mean, the governor of the state of Florida ignoring an order from the judicial branch of the state of Florida could possibly face impeachment charges, couldn‘t he? 

KLAYMAN:  Let me—no, because he would be carrying out the constitution.  He wouldn‘t be doing anything wrong.  Suppose there is a lynching as my friend Alan Keyes said. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Hold on a second—let me just ask you, help me out here.  I thought the judiciary was the branch that was supposed to interpret what the constitution meant. 

KLAYMAN:  Only the executive could enforce their orders.  That is why we have three co-equal branches of government.  When the judiciary abdicates, which it did here, it is the duty and the right of the chief executive, the supreme chief executive, Jeb Bush, to step in to prevent someone from being killed. 

Now, if there was a lynching in front of the Capitol and you went across the street in Tallahassee to the circuit court, the circuit court refused to do anything about it, it would be the duty of Jeb Bush under article 1 to save the lives of a citizen of Florida to step in, Joe.  And that‘s why we have three branches of government. 

What about W?  Was W restrained by the United Nations from going to Iraq?  Jeb‘s brother did what he had to do.  Yet international law said he couldn‘t do it.  And it happened to have turned out rather well, I might add. 

The governor should do what his brother did and follow that example, because he has more authority under the Florida constitution to save Terri Schiavo‘s life than his brother W. did to go into Iraq.  And this is why we elect a governor, not to hide behind a court. 

SCARBOROUGH:  We‘re going to have to leave it there, Larry Klayman.  I‘ll tell you what, this is a difficult, difficult issue.  I will say this right now, though.  A lot of people cannot understand why nobody can do anything to save Terri Schiavo‘s life, especially if you look at the background on this case. 

I will just tell you right now, I am stunned that this is happening.  I am stunned that this lady is going to starve to death despite the fact that her parents, her brother, her sister and loved ones want to care for her.  I‘m sorry.  That‘s just not right. 

Now still ahead on this special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, lying down in protest.  A group of disabled activists demonstrate outside the hospice in support of Terri Schiavo.  One of them will be with us next. 

And then 10 days without food or water, just a drop of communion wine.  Is Terri is any pain?  And what are doctors doing to make her more comfortable?  We‘re going to be asking a medical expert straight ahead when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.


SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s such an emotional story.  And that is all too apparent among the protesters outside Terri Schiavo‘s hospice.  Lisa Daniels is going to be talking to one of those protesters in just a minute.  But first here‘s the latest news your family needs to know. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Welcome back to this special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, The Terri Schiavo Case. 

Now, at this hour, Terri Schiavo remains in a room at the Woodside Hospice in Pinellas Park, still very much alive.  Protesters have remained there throughout this Easter holiday calling on Congress and the president to do anything to intervene. 

Once again, I‘m joined by my colleague, Lisa Daniels from Pinellas Park.  Lisa, what‘s the very latest? 

DANIELS:  All right, Joe.  Well, one of the most remarkable scenes I think right here outside the hospice all week long has been the children, some of them even getting arrested alongside their parents for trying to bring symbolic glasses of water to Terri Schiavo. 

Now, earlier today I got a chance to speak with some of the families about what brought them here and what they are hoping to accomplish.  Take a listen. 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that they are starving her to death and that she might die. 

DANIELS: Who do you think is at fault? 


DANIELS:  Why do you think her husband is at fault? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I don‘t know.  I just think it‘s her husband. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  We wanted them to know that when they grow older, that we want them to be able to be strong enough men to say this is wrong. 

DANIELS:  Who do you blame?  Who do you think is at fault here? 


DANIELS:  Who is Greer? 


DANIELS:  Do you know what he did? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Told them to take the feeding tube and they can‘t even put an ice chip on her mouth. 

DANIELS:  Why would you go across the police line?  What would you accomplish? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I would try to help her and feed her. 

DANIELS:  What‘s going on inside the hospice? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  All I know right now is that she is not being tube fed and she is starving right now.  And her lips are probably blue right about now and that her family is suffering.  And I just pray that Michael will listen to what other people have to say and put that tube back in her so she will be able to survive. 

DANIELS:  Who do you think is to blame in this situation? 


DANIELS:  What‘s his name? 


DANIELS:  Why do you think he‘s to blame? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Because there is results that he abused her.  I think if people helped her out and she got the help she need, she would be fine. 


DANIELS:  Some people say the kids are being used as pawns, others don‘t.  You have to make up your mind. 

Joining me now is Michelle Steger.  She is a spokesperson for a group of disabled protesters calling themselves Not Dead Yet. 

Michelle, tell us what you and your group did earlier today. 

MICHELLE STEGER, PROTESTER:  Well, we came and had a press conference and did a demonstration where we went in front of the hospice and we all got out of our wheelchairs, because we wanted to show the public that we‘re just people, people with disabilities, we shouldn‘t be defined by our chair, and Terri shouldn‘t be defined by her tube.  We‘re just people with disabilities, and we have value as that. 

DANIELS:  Now, why are you here?  Are you here to promote people with disabilities, to get people to understand more about your cause, or are you here for Terri?  Be honest.

STEGER:  We‘re here for both.  I mean, Terri is us.  She is a disabled woman.  She is not dead yet.  That‘s what we are.  And we‘re here for her.  We‘re here for the world to know that it is not OK to starve disabled people to death. 

DANIELS:  Is that what you think is going on here, that people want to starve disabled people? 

STEGER:  Yes. 

DANIELS:  That‘s accurately what you think is going on here? 

STEGER:  It happens thousands a day.  It‘s all over the country, every day I open my e-mail, I see a story of a disabled person who was starved, who was shot, who was killed.  And it‘s always written out as OK, because they have suffered enough.  I‘m not suffering. 

DANIELS:  Michelle, there are going to be people that say we‘re with you, Michelle.  We think people with disabilities deserve a lot more credit and we should do more for them, but they are going to look at the protests that you staged earlier and say hey, these people are slinging themselves from their wheelchairs, they are getting the police involved.  These policemen have better things to do than waste their time dealing with you.  What‘s your response? 

STEGER:  Actually, none of the police had to be involved.  We got down, we had our press conference, there was no problem with the police. 

You know, I get out of my car.  That‘s a normal thing.  I want the public to see that.  I‘m a normal person.  I can get out of my chair, it‘s not a big deal.  And we want people to know that.  Terri having a tube to eat is not a big deal. 

DANIELS:  So, when you hear that court-appointed doctors say that Terri Schiavo is in a, quote, persistent vegetative state, what‘s your reaction to that?  Do you believe them? 

STEGER:  No, I don‘t believe them.  I don‘t believe there are just as many credible doctors that say she is not.  And I believe there is all kinds of credible doctors that say we can‘t know.  And there is also -- 10 years ago, who was called a persistent vegetative state today, well, oh,  they woke up.  I have friends that have been in a persistent vegetative state supposedly from credible doctors and they woke up.  So, what do they say when they woke up?  Oh, we were wrong.  She wasn‘t.  Who is to say? 

DANIELS:  There are those who will say but Michelle, you‘re in a totally different situation than Terri Schiavo.  You‘re not laying in a wheelchair unable to speak, unable to move.  You‘re in a different state. 

STEGER:  You know, we‘re all in different stages.  We‘re disabled.  She is not dead yet, we‘re not dead yet.  I have been in bed before.  I have been in bed for a year.  And yet—you know, and I came out of it.  And hopefully Terri could come out of it. 

But even if she doesn‘t, she has value like she is, I have value.  Every person‘s disability, they are still a person.  They have the same amount of value, no matter how significant the disability. 

DANIELS:  Well, I know you have been here all day.  Michelle Steger, thanks for sticking around and joining us today.  We appreciate it. 

STEGER:  Thanks for helping get the issue out.  Just so people know, Tuesday people all across the country with disabled groups we‘ll be continuing to get our message out, because it doesn‘t start (sic) here.  It‘s just beginning. 

DANIELS:  All right.  Thanks for getting the word out.  Joe, we‘ll throw it back to you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thanks a lot Lisa.  I tell you what, it‘s a remarkable story.  And it just keeps getting more intense every day. 

Stick around.  This special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY will continue.  The condition of Terri Schiavo after 10 days without food or water.  We‘ll be talking about that and much more when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 



SCARBOROUGH:  This is a special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, The Terri Schiavo Case.  And what we never want to forget here is Terri Schiavo.  Of course, she is at the very center of all this.  She is the one who has gone without water or food for 10 days now.  And she is also the one in that hospice, still alive after all this time. 

Now, a lot of people want to know what this woman is going through tonight.  Lisa Daniels is outside the Woodside Hospice in Pinellas Park, and she is with me now. 

Lisa, what do you have? 

DANIELS:  All right, Joe.  Well as you said, there has been plenty of disagreement about whether Terri Schiavo is suffering in a traditional sense. 

The two sides in this case will never agree on that, that‘s for sure.  But there is actually a great deal of agreement in the medical community about what happens to somebody in this condition. 

So I‘m joined now by Dr. Mark Rosen who is the chief of pulmonary and critical care at Beth Israel Medical Center in New York. 

Dr. Rosen, good evening.  Thanks for joining us today. 


DANIELS:  So Terri Schiavo is well into her 10th day now without water or food.  What state is her body in?  Describe it for us. 

ROSEN:  Well, I haven‘t examined her, but I can speculate that 10 days after being not provided with food and with water, she is certainly much weaker than she was physically 10 days ago.  The blood is thicker, there is less water flowing through the bloodstream, and that her organs are probably starting, if they aren‘t already, to be deprived of a normal blood pressure and with normal nutrients.  And this will eventually cause damage to some of her organs, the kidney being the most vulnerable. 

DANIELS:  Let me ask you.  And it‘s a little dangerous to start these hypotheticals.  But if for some reason—and we‘re not going to get into that, the feeding tube was reinserted, is it too late to save Terri Schiavo? 

ROSEN:  Well, I don‘t know if it‘s too late if the feeding tube was reinserted today.  There will reach a point if it hasn‘t come already where it will be too late, where the organs will be so profoundly damaged that providing water—and water is the major issue at least at this stage, that it will be too late to really bring them back to normal function.  In fact, water...

DANIELS:  Is water actually—I was going to ask you, is water the real danger here?  As opposed to not getting any food? 

ROSEN:  Yes.  Well, early in this process, water is the major issue that causes the circulatory problems that lead to organ damage.  That the body is designed that we can withstand going without food for weeks, but going without water—and that really is going to be the factor that going to limit how long Terri Schiavo lives is how long she goes without water. 

DANIELS:  We have heard so many estimates from doctors saying a person in Terri‘s condition without food, without liquid cannot live more than seven to 10 days.  We‘re in day 10 now.  Doctor, how long can a woman in this condition live? 

ROSEN:  Well, nobody knows for sure how many days.  It depends on a lot of things, is how health the organs were and how hydrated she would have been before the feeding and the water was withheld. 

DANIELS:  But from what you know of Terri‘s condition, give us an educated guess based on your experience, doctor, how long? 

ROSEN:  It might be tonight, it might be a week from now.  And nobody can tell you with any more precision than that. 

DANIELS:  We heard from David Gibbs, the Schindlers‘ attorney, one of them at least, that Terri is on a morphine drip.  How does a hospice or the doctors decide she may be experiencing some pain at this point?  How do they make that decision, yes, let‘s start this morphine drip? 

ROSEN:  In a hospice where patients are there really to go through the process of dying and dying with comfort, the doctors and the other caregivers would tend to err on the side of doing everything they can to maintain comfort. 

So one of the questions if Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, and if she is, she wouldn‘t be experiencing anything.  In a hospice, it‘s generally the philosophy that when in doubt, if there is a shred of a doubt, err on the side of maintaining comfort.  That might be on the basis that her breathing looks a little more labored, that she might move a little bit more.  In a setting where you‘re not 100 percent sure—and even you are you err on the side of maintaining comfort with medications to reduce pain and to reduce suffering. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Lisa, if I could ask one question of dr.  Rosen. 

Dr. Rosen, today I read an article in the Associated Press that said seven doctors had either examined Terri Schiavo or observed her, and four of those doctors said that she was in a persistent vegetative state, three of them said they just weren‘t so sure.  How certain can you be in this type of case what that person that‘s lying in that bed that can‘t communicate with you, what condition they are in? 

ROSEN:  Well, the diagnosis is really based on observation over a relatively long period of time.  And yes, well-meaning doctors and intelligent doctors can disagree, depending on the state of their observation and the observation at the time. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thank you so much. 

DANIELS:  Following up on Joe‘s question—go ahead.  I was going to ask about whether she is suffering. 

If I ask the crowd out here, Joe, I‘m sure they would say yes, we believe—you hear them now.  They believe that Terri is suffering.  But if we ask doctors, they almost uniformly agree that Terri is not suffering.  Is this a medical fact or not? 

ROSEN:  Well, the medical facts—and these are the facts that have gone through the court for many years—are that based on the medical evidence, based on whatever was available to a number of doctors, the court has supported the contention that Ms. Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state and as such has no consciousness. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thanks so much, Lisa.  Thank you, doctor.  I will just say this again.  The Associated Press reporting today that there is almost a 50-50 split between doctors four that have examined her or observed her, have said she is, three have not.  I will tell you what, that‘s awfully close in my book. 

For all these people that are saying we should always err on the side of life, to me it doesn‘t look like that‘s happening right now. 

Now, coming up on this special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, she is now a national symbol, but what about the life behind the legacy?  We‘re going to be talking about Terri Schiavo, the woman, coming up next.


SCARBOROUGH:  I tell you what.  It‘s been a remarkable day.  It‘s been a remarkable week.  It‘s a remarkable story. 

Terri Schiavo, a woman that most Americans have never heard of just 10, 15 days ago now at the center of yet another cultural debate in America. 

You know, we‘ve heard so much about the red state-blue state divide.  There are a lot of people out there that are just absolutely shocked that this very personal tragedy has taken on such political dimensions.  I‘ve just got to ask, how could it not? 

At the center of this debate has to do with a world view involving life, abortion, euthanasia and several other issues that are—they‘re just the most complex and controversial that we have out there to discuss. 

Let‘s go back down to Pinellas Park.  Lisa is down there. 

Lisa, I understand you‘re going to be down there tomorrow, also.  Give me some final thoughts on what you‘ve observed today and through the weekend and what you expect to see in the coming days. 

DANIELS:  That‘s a hard question, Joe.  But I can tell you, I think we‘re going to see a lot more of the tension that is slowly building. 

I‘ve been down here for two days and already the makeup of the crowd is so different from yesterday.  As I speak to you, there‘s a woman who just spoke to the Schindler family who is telling this crowd that she just visited with the Schindler family and that Terri is very much alive. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Lisa, I am sorry, Lisa—I‘m sorry.  You were just about to say—we are actually looking at a shot, are we not, of Mr.  Schindler, Terri‘s father? 

DANIELS:  Are we seeing that?  I can‘t see it, Joe.  Yes, we are.  Bob Schindler basically greeting the crowd and thanking them for their support as he‘s done throughout the last couple of days. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Bob Schindler, as we can see—and Lisa can‘t see in this shot—Bob Schindler now obstructed be I the signs, but he is working the crowds.  He‘s thanking everybody for coming out.  Obviously, these parents going through an extraordinarily difficult time. 

But you hear so many times, you hear a lot of people that go through tragedies actually saying that support from people like this is what gets them through. 

Right now we‘re hearing applause from the crowd.  Obviously, again, Mr. Schindler thanking them for coming out on this Easter Sunday.  They had actually sent out a representative to ask these people to go home last night, to be with their families, to be with their loved ones on Easter.  But soon after that, Mr. Schindler came out and thanked them for all that they were doing. 

Now we see again—well, he‘s actually obstructed, but there he is again.  He is the shorter man in the green shirt, obviously, graying hair.  Getting a hug.  Thanking everybody in the crowd for being there. 

Obviously again, you see the photographers all around him.  You see one or two there.  But also, there‘s several other that are following him right now. 

It‘s got to be an extraordinary situation to be in the middle of this at a time again when your loved one is dying, when your daughter, somebody that you promised to take care of always, your—I‘m sorry, your daughter and also, of course, Mr. Schindler‘s daughter—but also Bobby Schindler‘s sister is in a hospice right by there.  And the whole family knows she‘s starving to death.  Whole family knows also that she‘s dying of thirst.  They are now desperately going to do whatever they can. 

Again, he‘s working the crowd tonight.  But tomorrow, representatives for the family are going to be going to Capitol Hill.  They‘re going to be protesting in front of the White House, trying to get a message to president George W. Bush.  They‘re also going to be storming Capitol Hill.  They‘re going to be going to the office of the speaker of the house, Danny Hastert.  They‘re also going to talking to Tom DeLay. 

They‘re also most likely going to be talking to Tom Davis, he is the chairman of the Government Reform and Oversight Committee on Capital Hill that actually issued a subpoena to have Michael Schiavo and Terri Schiavo  produced on Capitol Hill tomorrow for testimony before their committee. 

That subpoena was ignored in effect by Judge Greer who said he saw absolutely no reason for the hospice center or the state of Florida to produce Terri Schiavo.  It‘s created a showdown.  Tom DeLay had told me on our show a week ago that he was going to hold Judge Greer in contempt of court if they did not produce Terri.  We‘ll see tomorrow tomorrow what happens.

And we‘ll be following this story throughout the week.  But that‘s it for tonight‘s two hour special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  Have a good night.


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