updated 6/9/2005 2:41:53 PM ET 2005-06-09T18:41:53

Guest: Carla Caccavale, Julia Reed, Larry Pozner, Anne Bremner, Gloria Allred, Michael Deaver

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  As the search for Natalee Holloway enters its second week, two arrests and a frantic call for help.  But is it too late to find the missing teen? 

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, no passport required, only common sense allowed.  


SCARBOROUGH (voice-over):  Seven hundred volunteers and 4,000 workers search the island of Aruba for Natalee, as her family continues to hold out hope. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  These two belong together.  This is a mom and daughter team that just belong together, and this is why we have to find Natalee. 

SCARBOROUGH:  We‘ll have the latest on the young woman who‘s still lost in paradise. 

Then, one year after President Reagan‘s death, 61 years after D-Day, on the 21st anniversary of one of the Gipper‘s greatest speeches...

RONALD REAGAN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  Here, the allies stood and fought against tyranny in a giant undertaking unparalleled in human history. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Legendary Reagan adviser Michael Deaver is in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to talk about the man one year later. 

Plus, Tom Cruise unplugged.  Hollywood‘s biggest star has a new movie and a new romance, with strange public displays of affection that has all of Hollywood wondering, is Tom cruising out of control?


ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, it‘s been one week since 18-year-old high school graduate, Natalee Holloway disappeared from a vacation in Aruba. 

Martin Savidge is on this story in Aruba and he‘s here with us tonight. 

Martin, give us the very latest on the search today and on any suspects and police... 

MARTIN SAVIDGE, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  ... from Aruba is the big search. 

It is historic, unprecedented on the island of Aruba, that so many people have come together looking for one individual, the teenager from Alabama.  And now, unfortunately, they have not found anything.  But it was about 700 people.  This search was actually going to be even larger than that.  This was made up of volunteers, tourists that were here, people that got out of work, people that came from their homes, all of them wanting to try to find Natalee Holloway, who has almost become an obsession here in country of Aruba.

As I say, the search was going to actually encompass the entire island all at once.  And then authorities realized, well, that‘s a little too over the top.  Let‘s focus on one specific area.  And that‘s what they did, the eastern part of the island, a part of the island that most tourists do not see.  It‘s also the area from which the two suspects who were arrested on Sunday were found.  And so it was that area where they focused.  But, again, they did not find anything. 

Tomorrow, the search effort is going to be added to when the divers from an FBI diving team are expected to arrive.  And, at that particular time, they‘ll be looking underwater, obviously.  And, if they are, they‘re probably looking for the possibility of a body, because, at this point, after so much time, it‘s thought that this has come down to being a crime. 

And then there are the two suspects that are in custody.  On Wednesday, they‘re expected to go before a judge.  That‘s a formality, because, at that particular point, a judge is going to have to say, all right, is there enough evidence to continue holding these two men?  If there is, they can be held for another eight days.

And, finally, the three people of interest that were identified by police a number of days ago, they‘re still people of interest.  More arrests could follow—back to you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, NBC‘s Martin Savidge in Aruba, thanks so much.  We greatly appreciate it. 

And now let‘s bring in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY senior producer Mike Tirone.  Mike just came back from a vacation in Aruba.  And here‘s a coincidence.  He stayed at the very same hotel where one of the suspects worked as a security guard and actually met him and interacted with him. 

Mike, I know that you were very surprised.  We talked about this before the show, obviously.  You‘re looking on TV and one of the suspects in the Natalee Holloway disappearance and possible—we hope not, but possible murder, is a guy you interacted with.  Tell me about him. 

MIKE TIRONE, MSNBC SENIOR PRODUCER:  Joe, we were in Aruba at the  Allegra resort for about 10 days.  We interacted with this security guard.  He was high-fiving my 7-year-old son.  We had—we saw him on a daily occurrence every day.  I would take a jog and talk to him. 

He was a really nice guy.  He had a lot of charisma.  He was a fun guy.  He went out of his way to help people.  And I was very surprised.  I almost fell out of my chair when I saw the AP and MSNBC put his face up.  It was a real surprise. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, Mike, we‘re actually looking at some of the video, not here, but we were looking at some of the video that you shot from the resort where you stayed. 

We‘re looking at it right now.  I mean, this place looks like a tropical paradise.  And you told me that—that, again, very charismatic, that you would not be surprised at all that an American—that an American tourist, like Natalee Holloway, would certainly approach a guy like this and certainly not fear for her life, again, a very charismatic character. 

TIRONE:  Yes.  He would—I could see how Natalee would trust this guy.  This guy has a way about him that made you feel warm. 

He—like I said, my 7-year-old was high-fiving him.  I talked to him regularly.  He was just a nice guy.  He had—you know, he had a nice, warm smile and...


SCARBOROUGH:  And, Mike, Aruba is a very safe place, right? 

TIRONE:  Yes.  Aruba is one of the safest places.  I mean, we would go out and walk every night.  So did everybody.  And I—it‘s known as being one of the safest islands in the Caribbean. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  That‘s strange. 

Well, Mike, thanks so much.  We greatly appreciate you being with us. 

Let‘s go now to Carla Caccavale.  She is the Holloway family spokesperson.

Carla, thanks for being with us tonight.  We know it‘s been a very, very long day. 


SCARBOROUGH:  You‘re live in Aruba.  Tell us about the search efforts today.  And what‘s the very latest?  How is the family doing? 

CACCAVALE:  The family is doing great. 

Today was one of—one of their really good days, because they were coming off of a vigil last night that was held on island.  The locals held a vigil last night at the lighthouse, where there were over 100 people there for song and prayer and flowers, and just really sending their prayers to the family. 

And then today, as you heard, an unprecedented move.  The government gave all government workers off after 2:00 p.m. to do an island-wide, nationwide search for Natalee.  And the family...


SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s a small island, Carla, and they‘ve been searching for some time.  Obviously, the family has to be very concerned.  You have to be very concerned.  But I understand the FBI has come in, in full force also.  Talk about FBI involvement in this case. 

CACCAVALE:  I‘m sorry, but the FBI involvement is something that we cannot discuss. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Is FBI down there? 

CACCAVALE:  The FBI are down here, and the family is very happy for the involvement of the FBI.  But, in terms of what they‘re doing or numbers, that‘s not something that we‘re really getting much information on right now. 

SCARBOROUGH:  How is the family doing tonight? 

CACCAVALE:  They‘re doing great.  You know, like I said, it was a good day.  Based on the vigil and based on the search tonight, they are remaining hopeful and they believe that Natalee is alive and that she is on the island. 

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  And one final thing. 

“The Birmingham News” reported this weekend that, actually, Natalee‘s congressman, Spencer Bachus, a guy I served with, said that the family knew of information that would require the FBI to actually go down to Aruba.  Can you tell us what that is? 

CACCAVALE:  No.  And I wasn‘t really aware of that quote either.  I‘m sorry.   


Thank you so much.  We greatly appreciate you being with us, Carla.

CACCAVALE:  No problem.

SCARBOROUGH:  And please give our best to Natalee‘s family.  I know it‘s a terrible time for them, but let them know that all of our thoughts and prayers are with them. 

Now let‘s go to Rick Hahn.  Rick is a former FBI agent and he‘s also an MSNBC analyst. 

Rick, you know what?  There are so many things about this story that just don‘t add up.  And one of the things that doesn‘t add up is, you can‘t get any information.  I know a lot of people down in Aruba are concerned about losing tourist dollars.  But it is impossible—we‘ve been following this story—in fact, we were the first TV show to start reporting on this.  We can‘t get any information. 

And let‘s face it, Rick.  Things just don‘t add up.  What‘s the FBI doing down there on the island, when there are thousands of Americans missing—and I‘m not knocking them—but there are thousands of American kids missing at home?  And let‘s face it.  American tourists disappear all the time in the Caribbean and across the world. 

RICK HAHN, MSNBC ANALYST:  Well, you‘re absolutely right, Joe. 

It doesn‘t make sense to me that the FBI is involved at this point.  The only standing that the FBI would have would be by invitation from the Dutch West Indies government.  And, of course, while the FBI is always willing to lend a hand as best they can, obviously, there‘s an economy to law enforcement.  And those resources are very, very thinly stretched.  So, it really doesn‘t make sense to me that we‘re sending a lot of people down there. 

SCARBOROUGH:  The family believes that she‘s still alive and that she‘s still on the island.  They won‘t get into the specifics of it.  They also had information that they passed along to their congressman.  “The Birmingham News” is reporting that‘s what goes the FBI down there in the first place. 

What are the scenarios?  I mean, it‘s a small island.  If they haven‘t found her now, where in the world could she be? 

HAHN:  Well, it certainly is not—if it is a kidnapping for ransom or a kidnapping for sex sort of thing, for her to be kept in some sort of a shelter somewhere on the island.  The island has a population of about 75,000.

So, there‘s lots and lots of places that, in the urban areas, she could be hidden. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Is there a possibility also—and, again, we‘re all speculating.  And there‘s certainly speculation in the law enforcement community also.  Is it possible she may have been kidnapped and taken off the island, possibly to Venezuela? 

HAHN:  Absolutely.  Or anywhere out at sea on a vessel.  Who knows?  or...

SCARBOROUGH:  Does that happen?  I mean, does that still happen in the 21st century, that—that American kids are kidnapped and taken on a vessel or taken to places like Venezuela? 

HAHN:  I don‘t know that a lot of it happens there in Aruba or—or in some of the smaller Caribbean islands.  But it does still happen.  Young people are kidnapped out of Puerto Rico on a regular basis, as a matter of fact. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Talk about—let‘s talk about Aruba.  And, again, I‘m just—we‘re trying to figure out what‘s going on here.  From what we hear, Aruba is an extraordinarily safe place.  I think there was only one murder last year. 

And when there are murders on the island, it is always a local-on-local murder.  Tourists are always sort of off-limits.  What can that tell us about this investigation, about what may have possibly happened? 

HAHN:  Well, you have to wonder whether or not she somehow was conned or got in some sort of situation where she was dealing with someone. 

Now, we don‘t know that it was a local, or if it may have been some other transient.  I mean, the fact of the matter is, we just don‘t know.  These types of situations, where there‘s so many different transients from so many different countries around the world, literally, in a place like Aruba, we really just don‘t know.  I‘m sure they‘re basing it simply upon the reports of where she was last seen and who she was last seen with. 

SCARBOROUGH:  OK, Rick, you know, also, another thing that doesn‘t add up here, we first hear of three locals who are persons of interest, who picked her up at the bar, or she left with at the bar. 

The next thing we know, two men, totally unrelated, security guards, are the ones that are arrested.  These three persons of interests are released, but, again, the police are still investigating.  What could that mean? 

HAHN:  Well, it certainly—again, this is the sort of thing where you pull in one person that you know was in her company, ask them what the situation was when they left her company, if they left her company, and you do your best to verify that story. 

So, Joe says she went with Charlie.  And Charlie says, no, when I left, she was with Larry, that sort of thing. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, Rick, the best thing you do as a law enforcement officer is, you separate them.  You put pressure on them.  You keep asking them to repeat their stories over and over and over again until one of them breaks? 

HAHN:  Well, that‘s sort of nuts-and-both interviewing.  And, of course, along with that, you ask for the authority to do searches.  Those have to be done, of course, under the authority of West Indies laws, under Dutch West Indies law. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Rick Hahn, thanks a lot.  We greatly appreciate you being with us tonight.  And we‘re obviously going to continue to follow this story. 

As I said, we were the first show on TV to bring it to you last week, and, hopefully, hopefully, there‘s going to be a happy ending to it.  I‘ll tell you what.  Time is running out, though. 

Coming up next, her run from the altar made headlines around the world.  But, tonight, you‘re going to hear, again, in FBI tapes what the runaway bride had to say and how she got tangled up in her own web of lies.  That‘s the FBI tapes that you‘ve got to hear. 

And from bouncing off the walls on “Oprah” to his battle with Brooke Shields, what is going on with Tom Cruise and how is it going to impact his career and the career of all those close to him? 

Don‘t go away.  We‘ll tell you that and much more.  SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY is just getting started. 


SCARBOROUGH:  You know, in the Michael Jackson case, when the going gets tough, Michael goes to the hospital.  Possibly, the reality of jail time may be setting in.  We‘ll talk about that coming up next.



SCARBOROUGH:  The jury in the Michael Jackson spent its first full day deliberating. 

Now, Jackson himself never appeared at the courthouse.  He is home at Neverland recuperating.  He was in the emergency room once again over the weekend. 

With me now to talk about the Jackson jury and the latest developments are attorney Gloria Allred, criminal defense attorney Anne Bremner and also criminal defense attorney Larry Pozner. 

Larry, let‘s start with you. 

I‘ve been struck—I‘ve been struck...


SCARBOROUGH:  Good evening, Larry. 

I‘ve been struck over the past week.  Usually, in these setups, you get a defense attorney saying he‘s innocent.  You get a prosecutor saying he‘s guilty.  And I can‘t find a defense attorney that will come on this show anymore and say Michael Jackson is going to walk.  What gives?  Will you do that tonight? 

POZNER:  Well, you know, I—I always have problems with lawyers who prognosticate what juries are going to do, because, as you and I know, Joe, nobody is in that jury room but them.  They‘re the only ones that heard all the evidence.  They‘re the only ones that can decide it. 

So, sometimes, cases are so weak that we would be shocked if there were a conviction or so strong, we would be shocked if there‘s an—an acquittal.  But, in Michael‘s case, what you say is, the case is weird.  Now, weird usually favors the defense.  But Michael himself is weird as well, and that favors the prosecution. 

SCARBOROUGH:  In what way? 

POZNER:  Well, because they have to think he‘s evil.  And evil is very close to weird.  It‘s not the same. 

But Michael does bizarre things that the average adult male doesn‘t do.  Most of us don‘t live in a place called Neverland and keep giraffes on the property and carousels and boys in the bed. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Well, forget about—yes, that‘s what I was going to say.  Forget about the giraffes for a second.  Let me ask you this question.  What would your neighbors do to you if you slept with young boys, let‘s say, 150 nights in a row?  That‘s beyond weird, isn‘t it? 

POZNER:  I don‘t know what my neighbors would do.  I would say, my family would be deserting me pretty quickly.  On the other hand...


SCARBOROUGH:  Wait a second.  I‘ve got to hear this, on the other hand. 

POZNER:  It might be so crazy, maybe it‘s innocent. 



SCARBOROUGH:  Gloria Allred, I thought one of the most compelling parts of the closing argument was when you actually had the prosecutor—prosecutor saying, you know what?  If your next-door neighbor was doing this, you wouldn‘t put up with it.  If your relative was doing this, you wouldn‘t put up with it. 

Why should we put up with it when it‘s Michael Jackson, just because it‘s Michael Jackson?  That was a pretty compelling moment in the closing argument, wasn‘t it? 

GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY:  Very strong, Joe. 

And, of course, the prosecution calls him a predator, not just a weird person, but someone who preys on young boys.  And the prosecution, Joe, also made a point about, are you comfortable having young boys in bed with Michael Jackson, when it‘s been shown through the evidence that Michael Jackson possesses in his bedroom at least adult material?  Some might call it erotica.  Others would call the pornography.  Whatever you call it, it‘s pictures of young boys naked, showing their genitalia. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Gloria, is he going to jail? 

ALLRED:  Well, I won‘t be one of those people who makes a prediction.  But all I can say is, there certainly is sufficient evidence to convict, if the jury wishes to do so. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Anne Bremer, everybody that I‘ve been talking to that‘s been out of the trial, that‘s been inside the courtroom—maybe you won‘t make a prediction on air, but what they all say to me is, the guy‘s sunk.  He‘s going to jail.  He may not ever make it to jail.  He may kill himself first, but Michael Jackson is going to be found guilty by this jury of child molestation.  You were in the courtroom.  Why are people saying this that observed the closing arguments? 

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Because, right before the closing arguments, Joe, you know about the videotape that was shown of the accuser, and the tape was when he was first interviewed by the police.  He was appropriate.  He was reluctant.  He took 20 seconds to even say that he would accuse Michael Jackson of doing anything.  The pause was just endless. 

He was so credible.  And you know what that did?  It undermined everything the defense has said in this case, that he‘s an actor, that he‘s a liar, that he‘s a con artist, that this is scripted.  So, all of that noise, all of that argument, all of that evidence fell with this one short video. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And, again, Anne, you‘re a defense attorney.  And here‘s the thing.  You know, I mean...

BREMNER:  Right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I mean, we‘ve been hearing for sometime it‘s about Michael Jackson‘s credibility.  We‘ve been hearing that it‘s about the mother‘s credibility, that it‘s going to been the brother‘s. 

In the end, it is this boy‘s record against Michael Jackson‘s word.  If you have got a young boy, whether he‘s live or on videotape, making a compelling argument, that is extraordinarily bad news for Michael Jackson, isn‘t it? 

POZNER:  Absolutely. 

And it not only in this—I mean, it was a he said/he said, and the credibility contest really favored the accuser, especially at the end of the day.  But then, keep in mind, there are fingerprints on pornography.  There‘s an eyewitness, and Michael Jackson sleeping 365 nights with one boy.  You know, 46-year-old men don‘t have sleepovers, and then the pattern evidence. 

So, all of those things favored he, the accuser, in the he said/he said over Michael Jackson.  And the credibility of the accuser, of course, carried the day.  And it was—the last voice this jury heard was the accuser‘s. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Larry Pozner, let me ask you, the longer the jury is out, who does that favor? 

POZNER:  Well, you would think that a very, very short verdict would probably have been an acquittal, because it‘s very hard to get 12 people to convict that quickly. 

But the problem is, after that, after the first few hours, Joe, there‘s no way to read into it.  It can be any kind of fight you can imagine.  And, so you can‘t read that time makes a difference until you get to the five, six, seven, eight-day mark, and that usually means some juror has dug in against some other juror. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Gloria, I‘ll ask you the .

POZNER:  This case could have that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Could have that. 

Gloria, I‘ll ask you the same question.  The longer this jury stays out, does it help Michael Jackson?  Does it hurt him? 

ALLRED:  Again, it‘s hard to say.  I thought, if they were going to come back today...

SCARBOROUGH:  In your experience, what does it mean? 

ALLRED:  It probably would be an acquittal. 

But if it‘s taking longer, it‘s possible that, you know, they‘re leaning toward the prosecution.  It could also end up hung.  It‘s interesting what Michael Jackson‘s reaction is.  It seems as though he‘s complaining of back pain.  You know, I wonder if it‘s real back pain.  Is it because he‘s been spending so much time in bed on his back with young boys in his bed?  I don‘t know. 

I don‘t know if the back pain is real.  Or is this just more theater, an attempt to garner sympathy for himself, to make himself the victim, instead of the alleged child victim in this case?

SCARBOROUGH:  Anne, you‘ve been inside the courtroom.  Is Michael Jackson faking it or is Jackson really crumbling physically and mentally, as we hear? 

BREMNER:  Well, that‘s one I‘m not going to make a prediction on or an assessment. 

But I can tell you that there‘s arguments for both sides.  He started out so confident, peace signs, everything else his first day in the trial, dancing, remember, on top of an SUV in the pretrials.  He is stricken now.  He looks sick.  He looks like a hunted animal.  And the fear is palpable.  So, I think it‘s a little of both.  But the coincidence and the timing of the hospitalization—hospitalizations can‘t be ignored, critical stages of this case. 

ALLRED:  And, Joe, Reverend Jesse Jackson said that he talked last night with Michael Jackson, and that, in private, Michael Jackson declared his innocence. 

But Michael Jackson didn‘t do what his defense attorney promised.  That is, he didn‘t talk directly to the jury from the witness stand under oath and subject himself to cross-examination.  No. 


ALLRED:  He just allowed himself to be seen on video, where he wasn‘t under oath and couldn‘t be cross-examined.


ALLRED:  And I wonder if the jury is thinking about that.  Why didn‘t we hear from Michael Jackson?

SCARBOROUGH:  As we all know, as we all know, that‘s his constitutional right to do that.  But that may not save him in the end in the eyes of this jury. 

Thanks a lot, Gloria Allred.  We appreciate it.  Anne Bremner and Larry Pozner, a very fascinating discussion.  And we‘ll be following it in the coming days. 

Now, next, Jennifer Wilbanks, the runaway bride, as she spilled her story to the FBI, tonight, she explains on tape why she had no choice but to run.  And we‘ll bring in somebody who may shed a little light on her predicament. 

And a new young girlfriend and bizarre behavior on national TV, superstar Tom Cruise giving the tabloids plenty of material.  Want to hear what‘s going on?  We‘ll have it for you coming up. 


SCARBOROUGH:  You know, it‘s been a year since President Reagan passed away.  And, tonight, one of his closest advisers comes to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to remember the great communicator.

But, first, here‘s the latest news that you and your family need to know. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Authorities have now released a new audiotape of runaway bride Jennifer Wilbanks‘ FBI interview.  It‘s full of sexually explicit and salacious lies and the moment that she unraveled before the FBI.

Now, most of it, believe it or not, friends, too hot for SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  But here is some that we can share with you.  Take a listen. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Jen, I have been doing this job for a long time.  Jennifer, I think something happened and you said I just can‘t do this on Saturday.

JENNIFER WILBANKS, DEFENDANT:  I just cracked under all this pressure and I just, I mean I couldn‘t do it all.  I couldn‘t and have the perfect wedding that everybody thought that I was supposed to have.

Tuesday, I was—I was going to be off Thursday and Friday of this week for the wedding.  Rehearsal was on Friday.  I talked to my boss at the office on Monday, asked if I could be off Tuesday, instead of Thursday, because there was just a lot of things that needed to get done, you know, hadn‘t had up my final fitting for the dress, blah, blah, blah, just things I didn‘t want to wait until Thursday to do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  So, you took...


WILBANKS:  At that point, I still...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You took the day off on Tuesday.

WILBANKS:  Yes, because we had to—we were meeting with the—and

we did.  We went and met with the D.J., John and I did.  I mean, everything

·         I had all this stuff that we were doing.  I was trying to get everything done.  And then, as I was trying to get everything done, I realized that there were all these little things that I, you know,...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You can never take care of all the details.

WILBANKS:  Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, and then I was like I only have Friday off.  I was like, God, what am I going to do?  Friday is the only day I‘ve got.  I‘ve got the rehearsal dinner.  I‘ve got to get my pedicure and manicure done.  I‘ve got to pack for this honeymoon, and I don‘t even know where I‘m going, blah, blah, blah.


SCARBOROUGH:  Blah, blah, blah, indeed.  Good God. 

Now let‘s bring in the expert on all things Southern, Julia Reed, who

·         yes, Julia is contributing editor of “Vogue” magazine and obviously the author of “Queen of the Turtle Derby.”

Julia, take us into the mind of the Southern woman.  I mean, the pressure on putting together one of these plantation weddings has to be so great.  I mean, my gosh, what else can you do but flee for Vegas? 

JULIA REED, “VOGUE”:  Yes, chop your hair off and get on a bus. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes, of course.


REED:  I know you want to blame this on the South so bad. 



REED:  But let me just state for the record that this girl is obviously a little nuts. 

Having said that, I love how the FBI agents even empathized in saying, yes, you just couldn‘t take care of all those details, that pedicure and manicure and the D.J. and the fitting. 


REED:  And the worst for me was having to listening to her talking about getting the presents for the attendants.  I‘m still a little late on that front myself.  But...

SCARBOROUGH:  Sixteen of them.  I think she had like 16.  And, of course, I mean, this was a big wedding.  This was a latter-day plantation wedding. 


REED:  No.  In that town, where her husband-to-be was the son of a prominent guy, it would have been like the biggest deal of the year or maybe like the biggest deal of five or six or 10 years. 


REED:  So, yes, I mean, the telling part was when she said, I just couldn‘t—I didn‘t have time to have this perfect wedding that everybody thought I should have. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, you cut your hair, get on a Greyhound bus, head to Vegas. 


REED:  I think we‘re still operating under these myths, especially in the South.  Women are still sort of stuck with them a little bit more than we are anywhere else.  And that is, you know, I can do all this stuff.  I have to be the perfect bride.  I‘m going to have the perfect wedding.  I‘m going to have perfect manners and make sure I‘ve got everybody‘s presents lined up.

I mean, I‘m going to pull all this off.  But then she‘s also living in the real world, which is, her boss wouldn‘t let her have two days off.  So, I hope he feels really bad about that. 


SCARBOROUGH:  I hope he does, too.  This is all his fault. 

Final question.  I mean, we joke about the culture in the South.  But, again, for somebody that‘s never been to a big Southern wedding, I mean, somebody from, let‘s say, New York, somebody from New York or Seattle, Washington, they really can‘t understand why tradition is so important to a lot of people in the Deep South.  Why does it seem that tradition, debutante balls, Southeastern football, Southeastern Conference football, why are these things so important? 


REED:  It is what little we have left.


REED:  That the bad Yankees didn‘t take away from us.

I mean, listen, if you lose everything and then you live in poverty and you‘ve lost everything, and then you‘re also under occupation, I mean, people in Seattle and New York do not know what it‘s like to have lost a war on their own soil and also to then be humiliated at the hands of Yankees for hundreds of years—I mean, more than 100 years afterwards. 

So, as much as we should have changed, what we have left, we don‘t want to change.  And that‘s why the Delta debutante ball in my hometown is still—people travel far and wide, honey, to get their daughters making their debut down there.  And the weddings are all the biggest deals on the planet, like you say.  Everybody has matching sort of antebellum frocks and they walk down the aisle.  Some of them obviously are more sophisticated than others. 

But, listen, I got married.  Even though I was like old and living in a small town, I went home and I had just a few—like a small wedding, which there would be 150 people, which would be minuscule in my hometown.  But it lasted for four days, because, for one thing, once you get people down there, you have got to entertain them a lot. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You‘re exactly right.  And, Julia, you‘re right.  It all goes back to the war. 

REED:  But, well, pretty—I mean, we joke about it, but we have to say it‘s really true.  I asked somebody one time why we drank so much in the South, and he said, oh, because we lost the war. 


SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s the truth. 

REED:  Most of my generation is only—obviously, we‘ve only read about the war, you and I.  But it really is pervasive still.  And that‘s a hard thing for people to understand. 

But, in most days, you don‘t think about it, obviously.  But, in truth, we hold on to those traditions for that reason, I‘m convinced. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Julia Reed, contributing editor to “Vogue” and author of “Queen of the Turtle Derby,” now in paperback.

Julia, thanks for being with us, as always. 

REED:  Thank you so much, Joe. 


REAGAN:  For four long years, much of Europe had been under a terrible shadow.  Free nations had fallen.  Jews cried out in the camps.  Millions cried out for liberation.  Europe was enslaved and the world prayed for its rescue.  Here in Normandy, the rescue began.  Here, the allies stood and fought against tyranny in a giant undertaking unparalleled in human history. 


SCARBOROUGH:  That was Ronald Reagan speaking at Normandy on the 40th anniversary of D-Day. 

As you know, today is the 61st anniversary of the day that changed World War II and the world.  And yesterday marked one year since Ronald Reagan‘s passing. 

Earlier tonight, I talked to Reagan adviser and former chief of staff Mike Deaver, editor of the new book “Why I Am a Reagan Conservative.” 

And I asked him why America still loves Ronald Reagan so much. 


MICHAEL DEAVER, FORMER REAGAN DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: I think that the simple answer and the truthful answer is that Reagan was us.  And we were Reagan. 

I mean, he—he identified with those boys, as he called them, the boys of Pointe du Hoc, who scaled those cliffs, and not only saved Europe and America, but started something that was a prairie fire of democracy throughout the world.  And Reagan saw that.  Reagan knew that and Reagan felt that.  And, as Reagan always told me, the camera doesn‘t lie.  And so, we could see that in his voice and in his feeling and in the connection he had with those boys, who were now 70 or so when he spoke that day on the shores of Normandy. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It was a remarkable day. 

I remember the day that Ronald Reagan was actually inaugurated, in ‘81.  I had come home from school.  And my father kept saying over and over again, this man will become one of our greatest presidents.  And, you know, usually, when we‘re young, we like to think that our father doesn‘t know what he‘s talking about. 

DEAVER:  Right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  But a new poll came out a few months ago that, sure enough, had Ronald Reagan at the top of the list of America‘s greatest presidents.  Tell me why. 

DEAVER:  Well, for a lot of reasons. 

But one of the reasons is—is—is why I wanted to do this book.  Now, I think there are probably some sort of movement conservatives who would question whether I should be doing this book or not.  But I was a Reagan conservative.  I can‘t think of very few times that I ever disagreed with Reagan. 

But Reagan was great for a lot of reasons, not the least of which, he took this group of people who were a minority in this country.  All of my life, this country had been run by the left, by liberals.  He took that minority and turned it into a working majority, which is still, 25 years later, in control, and, seemingly, will be in control for some time.  He changed the world.  And he did it without malice.  He did it with not changing, really, what Barry Goldwater had talked about, but doing it with a humanness and a grace and a softness that took the fear away from most people about conservatism. 

SCARBOROUGH:  One hundred years from now, what will people remember Ronald Reagan for?  What will be his lasting legacy?

DEAVER:  I think he will be thought of as a great president, one of two people in the 20th century who really changed America, Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan. 

I think they will say he ended the Cold War.  But I think the thing he would be proudest of is that they will say he made Americans proud again to be Americans and restored our confidence, because we had had Vietnam and Watergate and Carter‘s malaise when he came into office.  And he made us all believe in ourselves again.  And that‘s a huge contribution and very difficult, you know, for a president.

Kennedy, Lincoln, these people made us believe in ourselves again. 

And I think they‘ll say that about Reagan. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I think you‘re exactly right.  It will be hard for people 100 years from now to understand just how low America had gone during the Iranian hostage crisis and all the Carter crises.  But it‘s amazing how Ronald Reagan did turn things around so quickly. 

Michael Deaver, thank you for being with us.  The book is “Why I Am a Reagan Conservative.”  And, of course, Michael Deaver is the editor of that.  It‘s certainly a book I‘m going to be reading.

Thanks for being with us tonight. 

DEAVER:  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  We greatly appreciate it. 

DEAVER:  Thanks very much. 


SCARBOROUGH:  And, coming up, he was once one of the most protected stars in Hollywood.  But now some say Tom Cruise is off of Cruise control and spinning wildly out of control.  What‘s going on here?  We‘re going to go live to a Hollywood expert and find out.  That‘s next. 

Plus, Russell Crowe busted.  The NYPD walks him out in cuffs for all the world to see.  And that got us thinking. 

Stay tuned. 



BILLY CRYSTAL, ACTOR:  Thank you and good evening.  I am thrilled to be here.  And I also have an announcement.  I, too, am head over heels in love with Katie Holmes. 


CRYSTAL:  I‘m in love.  I‘m in love.  I‘m in love.


SCARBOROUGH:  That was Billy Crystal at last night‘s Tony Awards, poking fun at Tom Cruise‘s recent “Oprah” appearance. 

Now, Mr. Cruise has been the topic of much discussion lately, as he‘s been publicly declared, well, a little bit crazy in love and talking about a possible marriage to new girlfriend Katie Holmes.  He also did a highly publicized “Access Hollywood” interview discussing his belief in Scientology and the evils of psychiatric drugs.  So, what‘s up with Mr.  Cruise? 

With me now to get us up to date on the Tom Cruise scandal is MSNBC entertainment editor Dana Kennedy. 

You know, Dana, a lot of people are joking about this, but, actually, it‘s very serious business.  I mean, hundreds of millions of dollars are riding on Tom Cruise‘s reputation.  And the guy has gone from being one of the most protected Hollywood stars to a punchline.  Why? 

DANA KENNEDY, NBC ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR:  Well, I don‘t know, of course, because I‘m not Tom Cruise, nor am I Katie Holmes. 

But I do smell a big giant rat.  If I were a betting woman, I would say this is P.R., because, as I think you know, they both have two big movies opening up in a few weeks.  Tom has “War of the Worlds” and Katie has “Batman Begins.”  And it seems awfully coincidental that they just basically met in April.  Within two weeks, they were appearing in Italy.

And Tom was brandishing Katie, almost as a prop.  Very few Hollywood stars—when they‘re first going out with somehow, usually, they play it down at much as possible. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, that‘s the thing, Dana.  Everybody seems like—and, again, we don‘t know if they love each other. 


SCARBOROUGH:  And so—so, I hate sitting here mocking Tom Cruise, because maybe they are madly in love. 

But, at the same time, nobody‘s buying it.  Everybody is thinking, it‘s all a P.R. gimmick. 

KENNEDY:  Well, and this is—this is my big question, because, for one thing, Tom Cruise—you alluded to the fact that, for 14 years, he had the most powerful publicist in Hollywood, Pat Kingsley, guiding him. 

And I felt like calling Pat after all this happened and said, I really appreciate what you do now.  I‘ve never been so clear as to what publicists do, since Tom Cruise has lost his mind, or so it seems.  And, of course, we don‘t know. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, she fired him.  She fired her, right?  Tom Cruise fired his publicist, right? 

KENNEDY:  As far as I know, he did.  And he has sister now who‘s his publicist.  And that‘s kind of like having your sister as your doctor.  I don‘t think it‘s ever really a good idea to have family when you need someone to tell you the truth. 

But he‘s made a few missteps.  One thing, yes, he may be in love.  And people do, do crazy things.  And give him the benefit of the doubt.  Perhaps he is.  But he has done a few things, like when he was on “Oprah,” jumping on the couch during his interview with Oprah.

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, actually, Dana, let me—let—because I mentioned that Cruise did cause a big stir while he was on “Oprah.”  But, two weeks later, the furor hasn‘t died down. 

Let‘s look at him tonight on “Access Hollywood.”  Billy Bush asks Katie Holmes what she thought of Tom‘s over-the-top appearance on “Oprah.”  Take a listen. 


OPRAH WINFREY, ACTRESS:  Have you ever felt this way before? 




BILLY BUSH, REPORTER:  When you see him jumping on couches on “Oprah,” going nuts, what did you think when you saw that? 

KATIE HOLMES, ACTRESS:  I sat there and I was like, I am the luckiest woman in the world.  That‘s how I feel. 

BUSH:  Were you also thinking, don‘t come back and get me?

HOLMES:  When I saw him, and I was like, Tom, where‘s the door?  You know?  I was excited.  Sure.  When Tom calls for me, I‘m coming. 


SCARBOROUGH:  So, Dana, I‘m actually sitting up in my office preparing for the show.  I hear my wife scream downstairs.  My wife doesn‘t scream often.  So I run down the stairs halfway.  She goes, comes out of the room.  She says, don‘t.  It‘s ugly.  I said, what, what?  She goes Tom Cruise on “Oprah.”  And when I told that story, everybody says the same thing.  I screamed, too.  It was painful. 

KENNEDY:  It was cringe-worthy. 

And he—Tom Cruise says things like, Katie is magnificent.  And I just don‘t know anyone that talks like that when they‘re in love with someone.  I am enamored of her.  She is magnificent.  People, in fact, were joking on MSNBC the next day, after he was first on “Oprah,” saying, you are magnificent.  Friends of mine were telling me that. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, by the way, Dana?


SCARBOROUGH:  You‘re magnificent. 

KENNEDY:  So are you, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Has anybody ever told you how magnificent you are?


KENNEDY:  Thank you.  I am enamored of you, too.

SCARBOROUGH:  In fact, when I asked my wife to marry me, I said, dear, you are absolutely magnificent. 


SCARBOROUGH:  You know, this sort of reconfirms—you are SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY‘s bridge to Hollywood.  But this reconfirms everybody‘s opinion in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY that Hollywood stars are crazy.  So, tell us tonight.  Do even the Hollywood stars think that Tom Cruise may be a little off his rocker? 

KENNEDY:  Oh, I don‘t think there‘s any question. 

I only wonder what Oprah really thought, because Oprah is as...

SCARBOROUGH:  You know what she thought.

KENNEDY:  Oprah is as smart as they come and as tough as they come. 

And she has everybody—she has everybody sized up. 

But, you know, he made a misstep, I wanted to say, too, in really insulting Brooke Shields.


KENNEDY:  And saying, look at her career.  And you know what?  Brooke Shields has been working since she was nine months old.  And she‘s now 40.  Don‘t underestimate Brooke Shields.

And I think you really need to be careful when you‘re scorning a woman

for her battle with postpartum depression.  That‘s a real misstep, because

·         and that gives me the idea that he is—this is a little unusual behavior, because, if it was just the love thing, I‘d think, OK, whatever. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  Maybe he‘s spinning out of control.  And, obviously, Brooke Shields is proving she‘s not a woman to be messed with. 

KENNEDY:  Yes.  I love that.  She stood right up to Tom Cruise, like,  when... 


KENNEDY:  Yes.  Don‘t mess with Brooke.

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, Dana, thanks.  Thank you, Dana.  We appreciate it. 

KENNEDY:  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  We‘ll be right back in a second with some famous perp walks.  You won‘t want to miss them.


SCARBOROUGH:  Superstar Russell Crowe cuffed and stuffed.  We‘ll show you next. 

And, also, make sure you check out my morning read at Joe.MSNBC.com, where you can also see my video blog. 


SCARBOROUGH:  So, Academy Award-winning actor Russell Crowe went to the pokey last night in New York for allegedly throwing a phone at a hotel clerk.  What, you can‘t do that anymore? 

The always press-savvy New York Police Department walked him this morning for all the press to see.  So, we in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY got to talking.  The next thing you know, we are perp walking down memory lane, like this.   


SCARBOROUGH:  Was it just me or did Russell Crowe look a little bit like George Michael in the “Faith” video? 


SCARBOROUGH:  Just asking.  That‘s all.

I‘ll see you tomorrow night.


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