updated 6/9/2005 2:44:28 PM ET 2005-06-09T18:44:28

Guest: Dana Kennedy, Rob Tannenbaum, William Bastone, Mary Prevost, Haleigh Uncapher, Noraina Pietersz, Jack Welch

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Tonight‘s top headline, the desperate search continues for missing Alabama teen Natalee Holloway, as a judge rules that two men can be locked up while the investigation continues. 

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, no passport required and only common sense allowed. 

Ten days, still no sign of Natalee.  Today, the suspects appear before a judge and they could be charged with murder.  We are live in Aruba. 

And then, as the Jackson crew deliberates for a third day, shocking announcement amid stories of a split inside the Jackson camp.  The judge may not be happy with Michael.  We are going to be live at the courthouse with the very latest. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK WELCH, FORMER GE CHAIRMAN AND CEO:  The worst I ever advice I ever got was...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  Jack Welch comes to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  And he is going to tell us what the worst advice is that he ever got.  The legendary GE manager of the century will be with us in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY later this show.  

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, it‘s been 10 days now since 18-year-old honor student Natalee Holloway disappeared from the island of Aruba.  Today, as her parents and hundreds of volunteers continued the search—I think it‘s up to 700 now—we are finally learning the names of two former security guards that are being held as suspects. 

Now, in a minute, we are going to talk to a friend of Natalee‘s who was with her on the night she vanished, and also talk to her because she is still in Aruba trying to find her friend. 

But, first, let‘s go to NBC‘s Martin Savidge, live in Aruba with the very latest on today‘s developments. 

Martin, what do you have tonight? 

MARTIN SAVIDGE, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Good evening, Joe.

This was a pivotal day, a pivotal day at least as far as the investigation, the criminal investigation.  You had the two suspects.  They were arrested on Sunday.  Today, they were brought before a judge.  They were allowed to speak.  The prosecutor spoke, as did the public defenders. 

And, basically, the judge is weighing the evidence here, trying to determine whether it‘s valid enough to continue holding these two suspects.  The judge came back and said, yes, you can continue to hold them.  These men are charged with serious offenses.  They include murder and kidnapping.  Yet, other people say, well, wait a minute here.  There‘s no proof that there‘s a crime.  Yes, a girl is missing, but no proof of murder, no proof of kidnapping.  Family members are outraged. 

They say their loved ones are being used as scapegoat.  Here‘s a mother of one of the suspects speaking this morning. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CYNTHIA ROSALEE JONES, MOTHER OF SUSPECT:  My son have nothing to do with this thing.  And that girl is alive somewhere all over (INAUDIBLE) but God is above.  God is above.  God know my son is innocent. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAVIDGE:  So you can hear that the family members are deeply distraught.  The attorneys say that both of their clients can provide alibis. 

Meanwhile, the search goes on today.  About 100 tourists gave up a day of their vacation to search the westernmost point of the island.  It‘s near the lighthouse, a famous landmark.  It‘s believed Natalee might have been there the night she disappeared.  And, once again, they found nothing—

Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, Martin, you know, this place is the size of Wichita, Kansas.  We hear there are up to 700 people that have been searching now for 10 days.  You have got the FBI down there.  You have got divers down there.  You have got dogs down there. 

I guess the question a lot of us are asking is, what is left to search on that tiny island? 

SAVIDGE:  Well, the island may be small, but there are still many places where a person could be hidden or a body could be put to rest.  There are many rugged and even remote parts of this island, despite its size. 

Now, if this person was being kidnapped and being held against their will, it‘s very possible you could move them around the island without them necessarily being seen.  It could be done.  Is it being done?  Many people doubt it.  They think something has happened, something tragic.  We just don‘t know what, and we don‘t know where she is at this point, Joe.   

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Martin Savidge, thanks, as always.  We appreciate the report tonight. 

Now, earlier today, the girlfriend of one of the suspects spoke out and said that the suspect was at the home, at her home, in fact, at the time of Natalee‘s disappearance. 

Take a look at this. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CYNTHIA DE GRAAF, GIRLFRIEND OF SUSPECT:  We went to (INAUDIBLE) with me, Abraham and Bernadine (ph), my friends. 

QUESTION:  (INAUDIBLE)

DE GRAAF:  When we finished, we went to get my daughter at my mom‘s. 

We went at the gasoline station, get some bread.  Dropped off Bernadine. 

He went home. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  Now let‘s bring in Noraina Pietersz.  She‘s the attorney for suspect Nick John. 

Thank you so much for being with us tonight, Ms. Pietersz.

NORAINA PIETERSZ, ATTORNEY FOR NICK JOHN:  Thanks.

SCARBOROUGH:  Help us out with the law in Aruba.  We understand that your client can be held in jail for up to four months without any evidence whatsoever that he even saw this young woman on the night she disappeared.  Is that, in fact, the law in Aruba? 

PIETERSZ:  No, that‘s not the law. 

The law in Aruba is that the prosecutor, after the suspect has been in police custody for two days, she can decide.  She has the authority to decide whether she is going to prolong the detention with eight more days for the investigation.  That‘s all the authority that she has.  She can get those 10 days for investigation.  And based on that, she prolonged the detention of my client and the other suspect. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, did your client ever see this young woman on the night she disappeared? 

PIETERSZ:  He never saw her.  He doesn‘t know her.  He never met her, only by the news.  He heard the news, too, but he has never met her.  He doesn‘t know who she is. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, one of the things we don‘t understand here is that there were reports early on across America and the world that there was the son of a Dutch judge that actually saw this girl, and along with two other persons of interest, had her in the car.  People witnessed that happening.  And yet the Dutch judge‘s son is walking free tonight, and your client is in jail.  Can you help us understand why these persons of interest are not in jail tonight? 

PIETERSZ:  I couldn‘t give you a direct answer on that, because, as you know, according to the Aruba law, the prosecutor is the one who decides who she is going to prosecute, yes or no. 

In the case of those three guys, I am aware of that.  Apparently, she

heard them—because it‘s a she.  She heard them as witnesses.  She never

heard them as suspects.  That was her decision.  Whether that is a good

decision, I don‘t necessarily agree with that.  I just got into this case

yesterday.  I don‘t know all the details, but from what I have received

from the prosecutor‘s office, all the relevant documents about—

concerning my client, and his statement he is giving, there is absolutely -

·         it doesn‘t add up. 

There‘s absolutely no way he could be involved in this case.  I think they are on the wrong track. 

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  Well, let me ask you one final question here, because I will tell you what.  There is conflicting reports from the island, and, again, what we read in papers in America.  Has your client been charged with murder or kidnapping, or is your client merely a suspect? 

(CROSSTALK)

PIETERSZ:  At this moment, they are accusing—if I understood your question—if not, you can correct me—at this moment, they are accusing him.  He is a suspect of first-degree murder, second-degree murder, deprivation of freedom, with death as a result.  Those are the three accusations.

And according to the local law, Aruban law, you can take a person in on a suspect based on little indication.  There just should be some indication as where to that person might have committed a crime.  You can take them into police custody.  You don‘t need to have the hard evidence.  Of course, after these 10 days are due, which will be next Wednesday, the prosecutor will really have to come with more evidence, because then she will have no authority to keep these suspects into custody, then only with the permission of the judge of instruction, which, as to my opinion, as for now, as a defense, I don‘t see that happening. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Do they have—final question.  Do they have any evidence at all, any evidence whatsoever against your client, other than he may have liked talking to American girls and other tourists in the past? 

(CROSSTALK)

PIETERSZ:  Not at all.  Not at all. 

I even asked the prosecutor where she got that little indication of guilt.  I even asked her that.  And, according to her, she is getting that from information she has.  Well, if she has the same information that I have, which should be the case, I don‘t know how she is coming to that conclusion.  But, as I said, she has the authority to prolong the detention with eight days. 

We don‘t agree with that.  We can take legal measures against that.  But we have to see if it‘s really practical to do it, or we can wait until next week, before Wednesday, yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  All right.  Noraina Pietersz, thank you so much for being with us tonight. 

PIETERSZ:  You‘re welcome.  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And clearing up some issues. 

Now, friends, here you go.  There‘s a disconnect here.  We are reading in the papers tonight, the Associated Press is reporting that these gentlemen have still not been charged with any crime, that they can be held up to four months.  That‘s not exactly what their attorney is saying tonight.  In fact, last night, when I had the attorney for the other gentleman on, I said, has your client been charged yet with a crime? 

He said, yes, my client has been charged with a crime. 

Again, the Associated Press last night around 7:15 p.m. said they still had not been officially charged with a crime.  There‘s so much confusion around this case, so much confusion about what happened that night, so many people who aren‘t talking.  And it seems the law authorities even down there in Aruba don‘t have their stories straight. 

And, again, this is a question, friends, I would love to know.  What about the reports, again, about this Dutch judge‘s son?  He—again, he is seen that night with two other locals allowing Natalee into the car, driving them away.  Then they come back.  She is never seen again.  And yet these two gentlemen who are now being arrested and who haven‘t been charged yet are being held, and, again, according to reports, can be held up to four months.

These two gentlemen, from what we have heard on the island and back in the states, have absolutely no evidence against them.  Something just doesn‘t add up. 

Now, back in Natalee‘s home town of Birmingham, Alabama, her friends and neighbors have been stopping at a special wall.  It‘s called a wall of hope.  And it‘s where they go in to pray and share stories about their missing friend. 

Meanwhile, the organizer of the graduation trip talked about why Aruba was chosen as the destination for Natalee and her Mountain Brook classmates. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI BEARMAN, TRIP ORGANIZER:  From the research we have done, and the options for teens traveling from 18 to 20 years old, really, this is the safest spot.  And we knew that the students wouldn‘t be driving cars.  We did know that they would be old enough to drink and that they would be legal age to do so.  And we provide chaperones.  And, basically, the chaperones‘ jobs are simply to be there for emergencies. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  Boy.  I will tell you what.  I have been talking to some people in Birmingham, some officials high up in government.  They believe that things just weren‘t handled right down there.

And the fact that they are admitting on camera that one of the reasons they chose Aruba was because they knew these young 18-year-old high school students would be of legal age to drink alcohol, not going to help also in the future. 

Now, let me bring in Haleigh Uncapher.  She‘s a good friend of Natalee‘s who was also on the trip in Aruba. 

Haleigh, thanks a lot for being with us tonight.  We know this is a very difficult time.

And let me start by saying, obviously, everybody‘s thoughts and prayers are with you and also your classmates as you look for your friend. 

HALEIGH UNCAPHER, FRIEND OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  Thank you.  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Tell me about—let‘s start—I am going to ask you about the night.  I am going to ask you about the search.

But, first, let‘s start with the most important thing.  Tell me about Natalee.  What type of person is she? 

UNCAPHER:  Natalee is very outgoing. 

She is happy, straight-A student, on honor roll, just all around a great person, a leader in our grade. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And you were with her the night she disappeared, right? 

UNCAPHER:  Yes, I was with her. 

(CROSSTALK)

UNCAPHER:  I was not with her, but I was there at the same place she was. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  You were there at the same place. 

And what is the last time that you saw her? 

UNCAPHER:  Well, the last time I saw her, we were all taking pictures out on the beach.  And that was the last time.  And then I kind of went my way, and she went her way, and then we just happened to end up at the same spot. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  And there were all—how many of your classmates from Mountain Brook High School were there? 

UNCAPHER:  I would say around like 40, 50, maybe.  There was a good bit there. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes, a good bit.  That‘s what we have heard. 

Hey, if you can, stay with us, Haleigh.  We will be right back on the other side of the break.

And we are going to talk about the search, get everybody up to date on what the very latest is. 

Also, we are going to be taking you out to California, talking about

some pretty surprising developments in the Michael Jackson case.  Jackson -

·         I will tell you what.  The guy may be held in contempt of court if he doesn‘t shut Jesse Jackson and other spokespeople for his camp up.  That‘s when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.

We‘ll be right back in a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  It looks like there‘s a split inside Michael Jackson‘s camp.  If that‘s the case, maybe it is because Jackson really is, as we have heard, pulling his hair out and very nervous about where they are.  How is it going to impact the case?  How is it going to impact jury deliberations?

Plus, is the runaway bride cashing in on her story?  You bet.  Stay tuned.  That story coming up when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, welcome back to the show. 

Now, let me bring back Haleigh Uncapher.  She‘s a good friend of Natalee‘s who was also on the trip to Aruba. 

You know, Haleigh, whenever something like this happens, you hear so much garbage.  You hear so many rumors.  That‘s why I am glad you are on the show to clear a lot of this stuff up. 

Talk about Natalee.  Talk about her week in Aruba.  Was there any indication that anything was amiss down there? 

UNCAPHER:  Nothing. 

We were just down there having a great time.  We had been doing the same thing every night.  We had all gone out and gone to Carlos ‘n Charlie‘s and all come home.  There was nothing out of the ordinary.  And she was right there with us.  She wasn‘t like wild or anything like that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes, she was—I mean...

UNCAPHER:  So, like, she was just having a good time, just like the rest of us. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Everybody says she was a very conservative, intelligent...

UNCAPHER:  Oh, yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Sharp, young woman.  Did anybody know these guys?  We keep hearing about this Dutch judge‘s son who was a person of interest that supposedly drove her away from the bar.  Did you hear anything about this Dutch judge‘s son?  Did any of the other friends hear anything about him throughout the week? 

UNCAPHER:  No, I had not heard anything about him until that morning, after, that she had hung out with him the night before.  That‘s the only thing I ever heard, because I had never seen her with him the nights before, nor did I see her with him that night, you know.  But there were so many people there.  She very well could have been there with him, but—and she was.

But that‘s the only thing I heard about him, was from that one night. 

I hadn‘t seen him at the hotel or anything like that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes. 

You know, Mountain Brook is obviously—I mean, I went to University of Alabama, so I know Mountain Brook well.  It‘s a great community. 

UNCAPHER:  It is.

SCARBOROUGH:  Obviously, a lot of people stunned with what went on there.  Are there some people in Mountain Brook that you know of that are concerned there weren‘t more chaperones on this trip when you all went out at night? 

UNCAPHER:  I don‘t think that‘s the case, really.  I mean, we all—everybody knew when we were going on that trip that we were 18 and we are all adults.  We all had to, you know, carry our own passport.  And they were there for emergencies only.

So, it was up to us.  And every parent knew that—you know, the risks they were taking when letting their child come down here. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Everybody knew that going in. 

Haleigh, give us final thoughts.  Tell us something that you want America to know tonight about your friend who you are searching for and who we are all praying for that she turns up well.  Tell us one final thing about your friend tonight. 

UNCAPHER:  I just want to say, you know, that she is a great girl, and that keep us in your prayers, and just hope for the best, because we are all still looking for her.  And we won‘t stop until we find her. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thanks so much, Haleigh Uncapher.

UNCAPHER:  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Thank a lot for being with us tonight.  We really appreciate it. 

UNCAPHER:  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now let‘s go from Aruba out to California, day three of deliberations for the Michael Jackson trial. 

And the crowds, I am telling you, it is a scene from “Star Wars,” at least the bar scene from “Star Wars.”  These people keep going out there.  More and more people gather every day to support the former, and I say former with a capital F., king of pop.  But it was a tense day in the Jackson case. 

NBC‘s Karen Brown is here to fill us in on the latest. 

Karen, of course, the carnival scenes outside, but also not just from the fans that assembled, also from a lot of people that seem to be talking for Michael Jackson.  The judge doesn‘t seem to be too happy about that. 

Get us up to date. 

KAREN BROWN, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Well, Joe, I have to tell you, there‘s just a lot of tension in the air today.  We had fans arguing with other fans.  We had fans fighting with the media.

And now there seems to be this squabble among Jackson‘s inner circle.  Now, basically, here‘s the deal.  Over the past several days, there has been a series of press conferences from the Reverend Jesse Jackson and Michael Jackson‘s own spokesperson, Raymone Bain.  Well, today, Thomas Mesereau‘s, Jackson‘s lead attorney, and Jackson and his family each issued statements that effectively said the only people that are authorized to speak for the singer are the attorneys. 

In fact, let‘s go ahead and read what Thomas Mesereau said in his statement.  He said—quote—“I have not authorized anyone to speak or hold any press conferences on behalf of Michael Jackson or his family.  A gag order is in effect, which the defense team will continue to honor.”

So, some pretty strong words from Tom Mesereau. 

Now, after that, Raymone Bain, Michael Jackson‘s own spokesperson, came forward and said that that statement did not apply to her, that she is still officially Michael Jackson‘s spokesperson. 

Now, here‘s what she had to say earlier at a press conference. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAYMONE BAIN, JACKSON FAMILY SPOKESPERSON:  If Mr. Mesereau didn‘t want me here, I wouldn‘t be here, so don‘t listen to so many rumors. 

QUESTION:  He is endorsing your presence?

BAIN:  Yes, he is.  I never speak to the media without talking to Tom Mesereau, because I understand, quite unlike many of you, that this is a serious situation.  And so, therefore, if I had not spoken to our team, I would not be here. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN:  All right.  So, here is the bottom line.  If this statement does not apply to Raymone Bain, then the only other person that has held a press conference here is the Reverend Jesse Jackson.

So, basically, the defense team is asking Reverend Jackson to stop speaking here at the courthouse.  And he has had some pretty strong things to say, including saying that when the Santa Barbara County Sheriff‘s Department raided the Neverland Ranch, they did it Waco-style.  So, there has been no official statement coming from the Reverend Jesse Jackson today.  And we are waiting for that.

But, in the meantime, there is definitely still a lot of tension going on here, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, Karen, tonight was the second night that Reverend Jackson was going to be with us tonight.  But, obviously, he had to pull the plug because of this press conference that came out. 

But, you know, Mesereau has got to be feeling the heat.  The judge says there‘s a gag order in effect.  Mesereau issues a statement that is approved by the court that says, I am the only person that is going to talk for Michael Jackson or the family.  And then Jackson‘s spokesperson comes out right after that and what does she do?  She starts talking again. 

Does—at some point, does the judge hold Michael Jackson or Mesereau in contempt of court if they don‘t stop breaking the gag order? 

BROWN:  Well, Joe, you have got to think that that is why Mesereau is making this very strong statement.

And it is important to point out that this jury is not sequestered.  So, they are going home to their community.  This is a small community here.  Everybody seems to know somebody who knows a juror.  So, again, they are not sequestered.  And, in fact, tomorrow, the jurors are only going to deliberate for about half a day, because, apparently, the judge is going to allow some of them to attend some graduation ceremonies.

So, they are going to run into tons of people tomorrow.  So, truly, the judge does seem to be telling the defense team to like, say, look, knock this off.  You know, there‘s a circus atmosphere going on.  People are talking.  Let‘s just shut this all down—Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Karen brown, thanks a lot, as always, for the report.  We really appreciate it. 

So, why would Tom Mesereau take such a public action in issuing a statement? 

Let‘s now talk about it with Mary Prevost.

Mary, you‘re a defense attorney.  If a judge tells you and your client to shut up and your client sends somebody else out to talk about it, you are the one and your client is the one who gets in trouble.  What is happening here?  Is The Jackson team spiraling out of control?

MARY PREVOST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Well, first off, it wouldn‘t be me that got in trouble.  In this case, it will never be Tom Mesereau who will get into trouble. 

And we don‘t know that Michael Jackson actually authorized Bain to make any statements or authorized Jesse Jackson to make any statements.  Before a judge can hold someone in contempt for violating the gag order, he has to put on a hearing and find out who, in fact, authorized those statements and if anybody did.

SCARBOROUGH:  But her title is, though, Michael Jackson‘s spokesperson. 

PREVOST:  Sure.  But we don‘t know that Michael Jackson actually authorized her to come out and make a statement. 

Let‘s remember, Tom Mesereau, when this gag order was issued, was not the attorney.  It was Mark Geragos.  Mark Geragos wanted to be able to talk to the press.  And he opposed it.  Mesereau, a much more I would say professional type of attorney, much less Hollywood, went with the prosecution to the Supreme Court and asked them to keep the gag order in place.  He wants the gag order. 

And I suspect that Michael Jackson is complying with what his attorney says, because he hired him and fired Geragos.  So, I don‘t know where Bain is getting her information.  I think that she may be trying to put it on Mesereau.  But I suspect that the judge is going to believe Mesereau, and there won‘t be any contempt charges on him. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Stay with us, because we are going to have a lot more in the Jackson case. 

What is going to happen to Michael Jackson after the trial?  If he wins, does he lose?  And if he loses, what is jail going to be like?  We have got an expert on that.  It‘s not going to be a pretty scene, friends. 

Also, coming up next, reports that the runaway bride may be cashing in on her pathetic story.  And would it be yet another case of Americans rewarding bad behavior? 

That‘s when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Coming up next, the runaway bride cashes in on terrifying her family, her friends and her community.  Plus, speaking of being terrified, you know, Michael Jackson‘s neighbor in jail, if he goes to jail, will be Charlie Manson.

All that and a lot more coming up.  But, first, here‘s the latest news that you and your family need to know.

(NEWS BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Boy, looking at those weather patterns that go like that, something about it just makes my back hurt. 

Now let‘s look ahead.  Say the verdict is guilty and Michael Jackson ends up in prison.  Most reports say that he would most likely end up in the same unit that houses infamous inmate Charlie Manson and also Sirhan Sirhan, Bobby Kennedy‘s—Bobby Kennedy‘s assassin. 

With me now to talk about what Jackson‘s life is going to be like behind bars if he goes there is William Bastone of TheSmokingGun.com. 

William, I will tell you what.  It looks ugly for the prince of pop if he gets sent to jail.  What would a day in jail be like for him? 

WILLIAM BASTONE, EDITOR, THESMOKINGGUN.COM:  Well, if he ends up at Corcoran State Prison, with has the protective housing unit in the California corrections system, he would be one of probably about 24 inmates who would spend their time essentially in solitary confinement, in an 8-by-10 cell that has a writing desk, a toilet, and a concrete slab with a mattress on it.

And he essentially would probably only be able to go out of his cell an hour a day for exercise, at which time he may or may not be in a yard with other inmates in that protected unit.  It is possible that he would.  If he ends up there, he would end up mingling with Manson or Sirhan or other people in that unit.  

SCARBOROUGH:  But, you know, William, as recent history shows, obviously, the Boston priest that was killed when he went to prison, if you are a child molester, a lot of times, you are a target.  If Jackson goes to prison, if he mingles with other prisoners, could he be, like so many other child molesters that have gone to jail, a dead man walking? 

BASTONE:  Well, I think that‘s one of the reasons why they have this unit.  It‘s actually—he will not be in general population. 

This is a prison that has around 5,000 inmates.  It has a unit of more than 1,000 inmates who have been shipped there because of problems within the state correctional system.  It has Aryan Brotherhood.  It has Mexicans mafia members, Nazi Low Riders.  But he is going to be in a unit that only has 24 people.  He will never, ever interact with those people, in part because the system understands that he is a target for extortion.  He is a target for death and all sorts of other terrible things. 

So, he will be totally segregated.  And that‘s why Manson—look, you would think there would be a lot of people who might want to do something to Charles Manson.  But the fact is, is that he is not in a position to be interacting with someone who is doing 15 years for armed robbery or a narcotics conviction.  They are in an entirely different wing of the prison, and he is with a small group of people who very rarely even interact. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  And, by the way, if I am hanging out next to Charlie Manson, I am going to stay as far away from him as possible. 

Let‘s bring in Mary Prevost. 

Of course, Mary, Michael Jackson is not convicted.  He is an alleged child molester.  This, of course, may not ever happen.  But if something like this were to happen, if you were Tom Mesereau, what would you do to make sure that, when Jackson went to jail, the same thing that happened to Jeffrey Dahmer, the same thing that happened to this Boston priest, would not happen to your client? 

PREVOST:  Unfortunately, there‘s almost nothing that Thomas Mesereau can do.  And, unfortunately, there‘s almost nothing the trial judge can do. 

I have asked time and time again for judges to assist me in getting my clients placed in particular places.  And the judges say, you know that I can‘t do that.  What judges do is, they write an order suggesting that the Department of Corrections follow their suggestion, because the trial judge knows best about the case.  So, it‘s the Department of Corrections that will intake him, classify him. 

It would take about 30 to 60 days to classify him and find him somewhere.  Whether or not they put him in Corcoran, which they don‘t have to do—they don‘t have to put him in that unit.  They can put him anywhere and segregate him.  But it‘s completely up to the Department of Corrections. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And I will tell you what.  It is—even when you try to protect some of these prisoners, as we all know, tragedies happen. 

Mary, thanks a lot for being with us.  We greatly appreciate it. 

Same with you, William.  Thanks for a look inside the prison, if Michael Jackson is convicted. 

Now, you remember when Michael Jackson was really the king of pop?  He sold out shows.  I remember the Victory Tour back in ‘83, ‘84.  Of course, I didn‘t go.  But, still, best-selling albums, a little strange, yes, but I remember “Rolling Stone” even once said he was bigger than the Beatles.  Blasphemy, I say.

But from this to this.  And what happens if the jury acquits Michael Jackson?  Even then, can he ever reach his “Thriller” status again? 

With me now is “Blender” magazine music editor Rob Tannenbaum. 

Rob, thanks a lot for being with us tonight.

You know, there are a lot of people that are saying, well, maybe Jackson can go to Vegas.  Maybe Jackson can do this.  Maybe Jackson can do that.  Is this guy basically going to be pop music‘s version of Mike Tyson, his best days far, far behind him? 

ROB TANNENBAUM, MUSIC EDITOR, “BLENDER”:  It‘s hard to know, really, because we are in unchartered territory at this point.

Michael Jackson is in a place in his career no one else has ever gone.  Elvis Presley made a comeback.  Frank Sinatra made a comeback.  But neither one of them had ever been accused repeatedly of child molestation.  And the problem with Jackson really is, he hasn‘t taken good advice in probably 15 years.  He writes his own songs.  He mainly produces his own songs. 

He hasn‘t put his faith in anyone who can tell him what the right thing is to do.  Now, you wonder what is going to happen to his career next.  A lot of people don‘t even know this.  Michael Jackson put out a record in 2001, a perfectly great record called “Invincible.”  There‘s a lot hubris in that title, because it turns out he is not invincible.  But he put out a record in 2001.  The radio didn‘t want anything to have to do with it.  MTV didn‘t want anything to have to do with it.  I am sure MSNBC didn‘t want anything to have to do with it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you know, and, Rob, also, this guy put out a greatest hits record last Christmas, and it just—it absolutely flopped.  You would think something like that would at least move copies. 

So, what happens?  You know, we live in a culture, where you look at Paris Hilton, you look at the runaway bride, where usually bad actions reward celebrities.  But it doesn‘t look like that‘s the case here, does it?  Is it because it‘s child molestation that is the charge? 

TANNENBAUM:  Well, sure.

You know, Paris Hilton made a fool of herself, but she wasn‘t accused of molesting children.  Will people forgive Michael?  It‘s hard to say, because, when we forgive someone, we expect them to first admit that they are guilty.  That, of course, infers or implies that Michael is guilty.

But before people are going to forgive him and want to buy music from him, I think he would need to go away for a while.  I think he would need to get out of the limelight for four or five years, so that we are not sick of him anymore, so that we forget what he has been accused of and remember that Michael Jackson—Joe, you are not going to agree with me, but he is one of the great living musicians.

And when he comes back, then people can start to appreciate him again. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know what?  There‘s no doubt about it, Rob.  It‘s not that I don‘t disagree with you.  The guy was.  He was an extraordinary talent from early Jackson Five days in early ‘70s, up through the mid-‘80s. 

Unfortunately, again, the question now is, can he survive? 

Rob, thanks for being with us.  We are going to stay with you through this story, because it‘s going to be fascinating. 

TANNENBAUM:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Especially if he is acquitted. 

TANNENBAUM:  Yes, it will be, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Thanks a lot, Rob.

Now, rumors today that runaway bride Jennifer Wilbanks is ready to cash in on her infamy.  In today‘s “New York Daily News,” Lloyd Grove wrote this.  “The queen of all media, Judith Regan, is close to inking a mid-six-figure deal with the 32-year-old Wilbanks and her on-again/off-again future husband, John Mason, that includes movie of the week rights.”

You could smell it coming all along.  It‘s here now. 

With me now to talk about impending payday for what could have landed Wilbanks in prison for six years is MSNBC entertainment editor and SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY friend Dana Kennedy. 

Dana, one more example—again, we don‘t—this is the report from Lloyd Grove.  We don‘t know if it‘s the case.  But let‘s face it.  She is going to make a lot of money one way or the other, isn‘t she? 

DANA KENNEDY, NBC ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR:  It‘s true.  She is going to make money one way or the other.

And just consider for a moment, Joe, in this climate where you can become famous for, as you said, bad behavior, imagine if Jennifer Wilbanks and her mysteriously on-again/off-again fiance, John Mason, who is the biggest question mark in this whole story, imagine if they cooked this whole thing up a while ago.  It doesn‘t really take a lot of imagination, when you think about it, to come up with a hoax that is a hoax within a hoax, because you know you can make so much money out of it.

I have absolutely no proof and I am sure they did not do this.  But you know what I mean? 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Oh, it could have happened. 

KENNEDY:  It could have happened. 

I mean, if I were her agent, I would say, listen, this is exactly what‘s going to happen.  They are going to catch you, blah, blah, blah.

KENNEDY:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And if you can stay out of jail, you are going to make a lot of money. 

Now, let me ask you this.  What was the tipping point in our culture?  When was it that just being well known, whether you are famous or infamous, was enough?  I mean, look at Paris Hilton.  You can look at Russell Crowe.  It‘s not going to hurt his career. 

KENNEDY:  No. 

SCARBOROUGH:  What point did bad behavior become enough to make somebody a celebrity? 

KENNEDY:  I think it probably had to do with O.J. Simpson.  That is when I think that really being a criminal trumped character and talent.  I mean, really, talent in many ways, these days, has become quaint and irrelevant, when you think about it. 

In fact, I think, if someone like Michelangelo or Picasso were around today, they would have a hard time doing anything, because it would seem as if, who cares?  They don‘t have a sex tape.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  I mean, you got Paris, Inc.—exactly—on the front of “The New York Times.”  And, again, we forget a year later that the only reason there‘s such a thing is Paris Inc., the TV shows, the movies, the books, is because she was in a porn tape. 

KENNEDY:  And just, literally, I think, three years ago, that would have been so shocking and viewed as so really egregious that any kind of career that she might have dreamed of having would have gone down the tubes. 

I still think it‘s really—I mean, even Britney Spears has a reality show called “Chaotic” now, which is doing very well.  It‘s a train wreck, and basically all she talks about in it is sex, sex, sex.  She is almost a miniature version of Michael Jackson, not that she ever had a lot of talent, but her career is on the skids.  So, she has a second career as a reality show actress, basically, the same way Michael Jackson‘s new career is being on TV every night as an alleged criminal.  That really these days is trumping talent. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  It is tragic.  It is tragic. 

Thanks for being with us, Dana.  We greatly appreciate it, as always. 

KENNEDY:  Thanks, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Coming up next, a change of pace.  We will have Jack Welch talking to us about how to win. 

Be right back in a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)  

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, Jack Welch knows a thing or two about winning.  The former head of General Electric, our parent company, is surely one of the most successful executives ever.  And he details what made him so successful in a best-selling book called “Winning.”  It‘s a book he co-wrote with his wife, Suzy Welch.

And, earlier, I talked to him about the book.  And I asked him, what does it take to win and how do you spot a winner? 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JACK WELCH, FORMER GE CHAIRMAN AND CEO:  Positive energy, the ability to energize others, that stuff that oozes out of them that excites people about reaching their vision, edge, the ability to say yes or no, and then that incredible ingredient about getting it done, and a record of achievement, of closure. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You talked about how to win and how to get ahead in business.  The first thing you say is, overachieve.  Talk about that. 

WELCH:  Well, I think that, really, what I talk about it is, the kids that go into a company, I give them advice.  Always overdeliver.  When your boss asks you to do something, Joe, he already has the answer or she already has the answer.  And they just want you to confirm it. 

When you give them a broader perspective, something that makes them look smarter, think beyond where they have gone, you will have added real value, and you will be recognized out of the pack.  And that‘s a big ingredient.  The second one I always say, positive attitude.  The glass is always half-full.  Don‘t be a moaner.  And, finally, have lots of ambition, but don‘t wear it on your forehead. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I was just going to say, I know number three was ambition.  And in our society, in our culture, sometimes, that is looked down upon, whether you are in business or whether you are in politics.  How important is that, to wake up every morning knowing, I have got to achieve;

I‘ve got to do better; I‘ve got to push myself forward? 

WELCH:  Getting up every morning and knowing there‘s always a better way to do things is the greatest gift you can be given, always to be searching, always to be open, looking into other minds, knowing that you are not doing the best job you can do, knowing that somebody out there is doing something that you can learn from. 

If you have that attitude, you have a gift. 

SCARBOROUGH:  How important is it to love what you are doing?  Because, again, it seems to me, with all the successful people I have talked to, I mean, the guys that have got the most money out there are guys and the women that will never retire.  You can call them at 9:00 at night.  They are at their desk.  Again, you can call them on the weekend and they are working on a project.

And the ones that want to retire at 40 usually can‘t, because they don‘t work long enough hours to retire.  How important is it to love what you are doing, to believe in what you are doing? 

WELCH:  Joe, as you know in your life, when you get a job you really love, it‘s not a job at all.  It‘s part of life.  It‘s fun. 

I mean, I had jobs when I was a kid where I—was mind-numbing jobs at Parker games, putting sticks into holes for games, when I would get a headache about 3:00 and couldn‘t wait to get home.  I have been lucky as heck after that.  I have never had a job since I was 25 or 26 that I didn‘t love.  And that is a gift. 

And you have got to love the people you are working with and you have got to love—the work has got to turn your crank.  It‘s absolutely necessary.  Those are two of the five things that really are critical to finding the right job. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, as a man who was named manager of the century, I am sure a lot of people would like to know, what is the best advice you got growing up?  If you can, tell me what is the best advice you got and what is the worst advice you got? 

WELCH:  Well, the best advice I ever got was advice from my mother to face reality.  Look, kid, this is the way it is.  See it the way it is, not the way you wished it would be, facing that. 

And, secondly, I got some great advice from a director once, who told me, when I was acting a little stiff, hey, look, dance with the girl that you brought here.  You be yourself.  Stop acting like a stiff in these meetings here.  Be yourself.  And so both of those pieces of advice, face reality, be yourself, were great pieces of advice. 

The worst I ever—advice I ever got was from a guy, my guidance teacher in high school.  He told me, don‘t go to college, kid.  You are not good enough.  Join the Army. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(LAUGHTER)

SCARBOROUGH:  Thanks a lot to Jack Welch., wrote the book “Winning,” a best-seller.  You need to read it. 

We‘ll be right back in just a minute in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Don‘t even think about going to bed before you see our volcanic video clip in the next segment. 

And, also, when you wake up in the morning, you can start your day out by checking out my read, my morning read, that is, at Joe.MSNBC.com.

We‘ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  And now some stories that make you go, wow. 

Our neighbors south of the border have been marveling as a volcano spews smoke and lava into the air.  Western Mexico‘s Volcano of Fire erupted on Sunday.  And it‘s littered local villages with ash, which shot in the air as high as two miles.  Take a look at this, obviously scary on video, but imagine if this were your hometown. 

Meanwhile, score one for our Border Patrol agents.  On April 25, Gregory Despres was allowed into Maine from Canada.  The guy had a sword, a bloody chain saw, a knife, a hatchet, brass knuckles.  They were all carrying—and, of course, they confiscated the weapons, but let him in. 

Now, two days later, police in Canada found Gregory‘s decapitated neighbor and his murdered common law wife.  Gregory is currently in Massachusetts awaiting extradition.  Boy, I‘m glad our borders are secure. 

And then Arkansas Police have confiscated a DVD fight called “Fight Night,” showing boys and girls boxing and wrestling in the mud.  It was at a teenage party.  And the DVD has already been sold, apparently to people in the video.  But the people in the video aren‘t in trouble.  Police are looking for party organizers.

And, remember, friends, first rule in video fight club, you don‘t talk about video fight club. 

That‘s all the time we have for tonight.  Make sure to watch Imus tomorrow morning with our good friend Ron Insana.

And we‘ll see you tomorrow night in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

Content and programming copyright 2005 MSNBC.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc. ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon MSNBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

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