updated 6/10/2005 12:26:54 PM ET 2005-06-10T16:26:54

Guest: Joe Tacopina, Mary Fulginiti, Marjanne Havelaar, Haleigh Uncapher, Tom Parker, Chris Lejuez, David Kock

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  The tragic story continues to develop in Aruba.  These three men are in custody tonight in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, but still no sign of the young 18-year-old girl from Birmingham, Alabama.  The mystery in Aruba gets darker and darker.  And we‘ll have full coverage tonight. 

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, no passport required, only common sense allowed. 

Three more men arrested in Aruba, including the son of a powerful local family.  And there is still no sign of Natalee.  We‘re going to have live expanded coverage tonight and have all of the latest developments, including information that the search has expanded beyond the shores of the tiny island.  And we‘ll be asking, where could Natalee Holloway be? 

Then, the fifth day of deliberations in the Jackson case, but still no verdict, this as reports of rising tensions, and outside the courthouse, one reporter gets a court order against a rabid Michael Jackson supporter.  We‘ll be live in California with that.  And we‘ll also talk to two legal eagles who know that waiting is the hardest part and what this waiting means. 

Plus, Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, are they Hollywood‘s newest lovebirds or a match made only in Hollywood, with Tom Cruise pulling the strings?  Or maybe it‘s about Scientology?  We‘ll ask the question and get the answers you want to know. 

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s been a day of major developments in the case of Natalee Holloway, who was last seen at a nightclub in Aruba seven days ago. 

In a minute, we‘re going to tell you about three new suspects and also showing you a picture now.  It actually is from an Internet site.  These are the three men whose identities have been confirmed by a local TV reporter and a lawyer.  Also this hour, we‘re going to be talking to one of Natalee‘s close friends who was with her the night she disappeared and is in Aruba now, still helping on the frantic search for her lost friend. 

But, first, let‘s go live to Aruba and talk to NBC‘s Martin Savidge and get the very latest. 

Martin, a fascinating day in Aruba.  Give us the very latest. 


Tonight, five suspects in custody, behind bars, and still no real firm idea as to what has happened with Natalee Holloway or, most of all, where she is.  The three latest suspects were arrested early this morning.  They are young men between the ages of 17 and 21.  They were formerly known as persons of interest., the last three people that eyewitnesses say they saw Natalee Holloway with the night that she vanished. 

However, these same three admit to all of that.  They did party with her.  They were in the nightclub with her.  And she did get in their car and drive off, drive around the island for a bit.  But one thing they agree on, they brought her back to her hotel, and she was alive and well when they left her. 

Now, obviously, authorities don‘t necessarily buy their story.  That‘s why they‘re in custody.  How did they meet?  That‘s one question that was brought up.  Here‘s the answer that was given at a press conference by authorities this afternoon. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes, that‘s true.  They know the boy, yes.

QUESTION:  How do they know them and for how long? 

JAN VAN DER STRATEN, CHIEF POLICE COMMISSIONER:  They meet each other in the casino. 

QUESTION:  That day or a previous day? 

VAN DER STRATEN:  The day before. 

QUESTION:  The day before.  All three of them? 

VAN DER STRATEN:  No, the youngest boy, the 17-year-old boy. 


SAVIDGE:  One thing is clear.  The pressure continues to grow.  Even the prime minister of Aruba today said that he was growing frustrated at the pace of this investigation.  Still, he knows it‘s police work.  Five suspects in custody and still no idea of where Natalee Holloway is—Joe.

SCARBOROUGH:  Martin, let me ask you a quick follow-up question here. 

Obviously, so many of us knew right after this happened that there were three persons of interest.  There was a lot of talk about one of these men, the Dutch boys actually being connected to a powerful person in Aruba.  Tonight, a lot of people are asking, why did it take the police officers so long to search his car, to search his home?  Why did they start this investigation 11 days after Natalee went missing? 

SAVIDGE:  Well, the answer to that one is that, initially, they weren‘t positive that a crime has been committed.  Even now, they aren‘t certain that there has been a crime. 

But they cannot leave any stone unturned.  It‘s clear that they had talked to these three suspects almost every single day since the day that Natalee disappeared.  And they had looked into their automobile.  But they obviously weren‘t getting the answers they thought these young men had.  And now they‘re applying the pressure.  The pressure is arresting them, and they‘ve been charged with suspicion of murder. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, thanks a lot, NBC‘s Martin Savidge.  We greatly appreciate your report, as always. 

Now, this morning, the attorney general of Aruba was asked point blank if she had any idea whether Natalee Holloway was still alive.  This is what she said. 


CAREN JANSSEN, ARUBAN ATTORNEY GENERAL:  No, we aren‘t close or coming to the point.  At this stage, we can‘t say what we are presuming at this moment.  We have too little details to say.  All options are open.  All scenarios can have happened. 


SCARBOROUGH:  You know, the thing is, they still don‘t know. 

I mean, obviously, they don‘t know what‘s going on.  But the thing that, again, at some of the press conferences held earlier today, what a lot of people didn‘t understand was what I was asking some time ago, why they took so long to pull this judge‘s son back in to investigate, to arrest him, to seize his car, to search his home, to do all those things that, obviously, officers in the United States would expect or at least be expected to do?

After all, there were three men who were clearly identified that night as leaving with Natalee Holloway.  Those three men have been free.  Their car hasn‘t been searched.  And, again, so, now, what, we‘re 11 days after she‘s gone missing, and finally they‘re seizing this judge‘s son‘s car. 

Now, let‘s go to David Kock.  He is the attorney for one of the  Kaploe brothers.  And he is one of the brothers, again, who was taken into custody this morning. 

David, thank you so much for being with us tonight. 


SCARBOROUGH:  What can you tell us about your clients?  Obviously, they were the ones identified in the car going away from the bar that night.  But they claim they‘re innocent.  What did they say happened that night when they were riding around the island with Natalee Holloway? 

KOCK:  Well, look, the details of exactly was being said, I can‘t comment at the moment. 

I must tell you that they‘re amazed that they‘ve been arrested.  As you know, they were first interrogated as a witness.  They gave their total cooperation for this.  And they were not detained.  As you know, later on...


KOCK:  Sorry?

Later on...


SCARBOROUGH:  No, I was just going to say, but they have admitted in the police statements that Natalee got in the car with them that night, right? 

KOCK:  Yes.  They have never said that that‘s not true. 


Now, and your clients, from what we‘ve heard from reports today, and again in the police reports, your clients weren‘t the ones who were said to be intimate with Natalee that night.  But, instead, it was Mr. Van Der Sloot.  Is that correct? 

KOCK:  That is correct.  That‘s been confirmed by the three of them separately in separate statements, from the beginning, also, I must—I must note. 

SCARBOROUGH:  But your clients were not intimate with Ms. Holloway. 

Is that what it says in the statement? 

KOCK:  That‘s what it says in the statement.  And that‘s what they‘ve been saying all along. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Can you help us out again?  Because a lot of us that haven‘t been to Aruba don‘t understand the geography of the island.  Obviously, she left the restaurant and the bar with your client, his brother, and Mr. Van Der Sloot, the judge‘s son.  And then they went to the other side of the island to this lighthouse. 

How far away, as far as mileage goes, was the other side of the island where they took her? 

KOCK:  No, it‘s not really on the other side. 

If you know the island, if you are driving from the restaurant where they were, the nightclub—that was Carlos ‘n Charlie‘s—and you have to go to their hotel, the lighthouse is just a little bit further down.  I would say it‘s about two miles from where I‘m standing right now, made a turnaround and came back in the direction of the hotel.  So, it‘s not really going to another side of the island, like I have also heard from other sources. 

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  That‘s great to know, and that‘s why we‘re asking you.  So, only a couple of miles from where you‘re standing right now. 

Now they claim that, after Mr. Van Der Sloot had been intimate with her, they drove her back to the hotel, dropped her off, and what do they say happened next after she got out of the car? 

KOCK:  After she got out of the car, I understood that she went to the hotel, even that she fell when she trembled from the door.  And then they left her going inside of the hotel.  That‘s the point where the question of the security guards come into place, where they say that a security guard was there when they left her behind. 

And I think, again, that‘s the reason why you also know that, afterwards, the security—they concentrated this investigation on the security guards.  The security guards were detained.  And what I‘m saying about that, it‘s a little incomprehensible for us why now, all of a sudden, they detained these three suspects, is that you have these two—these two groups or these two trails that are so to the contrary of each other, no?  It can be only one of those two groups.

SCARBOROUGH:  But, David, they were the—they were the—but, David, they were the only—your client, his brother, and the judge‘s son were the only three people that were seen with Natalee that night by all the witnesses, correct? 

KOCK:  At the, yes, last—that is correct. 


KOCK:  They have never denied that, no. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Right, right.  So, that‘s probably why they were suspects. 

Well, David, thank you for being with us tonight.  We greatly appreciate it.  Obviously, again, in America, we believe that everybody is innocent until proven guilty.  That‘s what I believe tonight.  And that‘s certainly what we believe about your clients, too.  We‘ll just have to see what happens. 

Now, friends, listen, last night on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, in fact, I was hammering this point home over and over again.  It didn‘t make sense that you arrested two black males who were security guards when nobody saw them that night with Natalee Holloway.  Nobody saw them at all.  And yet, while this frantic search has been going on for the better part of 11 days, they just arrest these two black men.  And the only thing that they‘re accused of doing is trying to pick up on white tourists that go down to Aruba. 

It is absolutely outrageous.  Listen to me here.  It is absolutely outrageous that a judge‘s son from a well-connected family is allowed to roam free for 10, 11 days without being arrested, when everybody saw this young man, again, who is obviously connected to a very powerful family in Aruba, everybody saw him leave with Natalee.  We find out tonight that he was intimate with Natalee.  He brought her back, allegedly, according to reports, and claims he let her off. 

And yet nobody saw his image, saw his car‘s image or saw Natalee‘s image that night on the tape.  It doesn‘t sound—again, it just doesn‘t sound right. 

I want to get more on this story.  Let‘s go ahead and go to Chris Lejuez.  He‘s the attorney for Abraham Jones.  Now, Abraham Jones is one of these two security guards who was taken into custody earlier this week, despite the fact that nobody has come forward claiming that they saw Mr.  Jones with Natalee Holloway. 

Thank you so much for being with us again tonight, Chris. 

I‘ve got to tell you, a lot of things just don‘t add up, why they put your client in jail, while they allow the judge‘s son to roam free for the better part of 11 days.  Can you explain to me why that happened? 

CHRIS LEJUEZ, ATTORNEY FOR ARUBAN SUSPECT:  I cannot explain that part, sir. 

But I can—I‘m very happy that probably also because of the pressure of the press, the prosecutor‘s office has decided to explore new options.  They were so limited in their options.  They were so blindly focused on the first two—the person that they had detained.  It was about time that they had to start opening this investigation a little further, expanding the options that they were looking into. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Chris, nobody saw your client or Mr. Jones with Natalee Holloway.  Yet they take them into custody.  They allow this judge‘s son to roam free on the island for 11 days.  They don‘t seize his car.  They don‘t search his home.  They do anything. 

And I understand today that you were allowed to see two reports, two police statements, from two of the three suspects that were taken into custody.

LEJUEZ:  That‘s correct.

SCARBOROUGH:  But, coincidentally, you didn‘t get to see the judge‘s son‘s statement.  Is that correct? 

LEJUEZ:  That‘s correct, sir. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Why is that? 

LEJUEZ:  I would not like to speculate on that, sir.  I do know that what you are saying is correct. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, Chris, why don‘t you stay with me and let me speculate?  It‘s because this judge‘s son has been getting preferential treatment since the beginning.  And if the police officers had treated him like the suspect he should have been treated like, we may have more clues on where Natalee is tonight. 

We‘ll be right back in a second.  More with the attorney, more on this story, more when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.


SCARBOROUGH:  Coming up on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, I‘m going to be talking to somebody who was with Natalee the night of the disappearance, a friend of Natalee‘s who is still down in Aruba looking for her Birmingham friend. 

That and a whole lot more when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.




MARCIA TWITTY, AUNT OF NATALEE:  Let‘s keep everybody, keep them all

in custody and let‘s figure out the answers to this.  And let‘s figure out

the truth.  And let‘s let the innocent ones go and let‘s keep the ones who

·         who—who did something wrong. 


SCARBOROUGH:  We‘re back with Chris Lejuez.  He‘s the attorney for Abraham Jones, who is still—still being held on suspicions of murder and kidnapping in the case of Natalee Holloway. 

Now, for those of you that haven‘t been following this story closely, Mr. Jones appears, in my opinion, to simply be a man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  There‘s no evidence linking him to Natalee Holloway.  All we‘ve read in America is that they liked talking—those two security guards liked talking to women and picking women up.

Thank you, again, for being with us, Chris. 

I want to ask you this question.  Again, maybe I‘m being played for a sucker, but from the news reports I‘ve read, I haven‘t seen anybody that‘s seen your client with Natalee Holloway.  I haven‘t seen anybody that has any evidence linking your client to Natalee Holloway.  Does your client claim that he ever met Natalee Holloway that night or any other night? 

LEJUEZ:  My client never met Natalee Holloway.  He never knew her.  He never spoke to her.  He only knew about her from what he read in the press. 

And I would like to correct you, sir, on one thing that you just said.  He never picked up any girl at any hotel in Aruba.  He expressly told me that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  No, I‘m just saying, those are news reports in the United States of America.  And had he tried to do that, which, of course, we don‘t know—and you‘re saying he hasn‘t, so I‘ll take you at your word.  Had he did, that‘s not a crime. 

LEJUEZ:  He told me he never had.


LEJUEZ:  He told me he never had, because I asked him specifically about that question. 


You know, the thing that concerns me, Chris, what concerns me is the fact that we had unnamed sources in Aruba that were saying that to the Associated Press and other people in the United States that may have actually, again, been trying to point the finger to your client. 

Now, let me ask you this question.  Are you surprised that the three gentlemen that were seen picking up Natalee, took her to the island—now we find out that one was intimate with Natalee.  They allegedly came back that night.  Are you surprised that they didn‘t impound their car?  They said—they claim they searched their car.  But they didn‘t impound it and dust it and do things for evidence. 

I mean, is that the way police work is usually done in Aruba?  Do they usually allow 11 days to go by in normal cases like this? 

LEJUEZ:  Not at all.  Not at all. 

That‘s why I‘m happy that they have decided finally to go back to the origin, to go back to the source, to go back to the beginning of this whole thing, to go back to the people who saw Natalee last.  And I‘ve been trying to get them to do that.  But they wouldn‘t listen to me.  But, finally, by going to the interview to get the press to put enough pressure on the public prosecutor‘s office, finally, it paid off.  And now they are doing what they have—should have been doing from the beginning. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you know, Chris, and you are doing what you need to do.  And I‘ll tell you what.  The thing that concerns me is the fact that this judge‘s son and his two friends had 11 days to clean up the evidence at their home and in their car. 

Chris, thanks a lot for being with us.  We‘re going to be following this.  Good luck with your case.  We greatly appreciate your time in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. 

LEJUEZ:  Thank you. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Now let‘s bring in Tom Parker.  He‘s a former FBI agent. 

Tom, I‘ll tell you what.  It just doesn‘t add up here.  You‘ve got three gentlemen on the scene the night of the disappearance.  I think nine, 10 people I.D.ed them with the missing girl.  We now find out that she was intimate with one of these three, the judge‘s son.  They wait 10 days to impound the car.  They wait 10 days to search his home.  Evidence can be cleaned up in 10, 11 days, can‘t it? 

TOM PARKER, FORMER FBI AGENT:  Oh, sure, Joe, it absolutely can. 

But one thing we have to remember here with speculating as to what the reasons were, we‘re viewing this through the prism of how law enforcement work and how the judicial system works here in the United States.  Aruba is a foreign country.  They operate under a different set of laws.  Now, in most Westernized countries, which Aruba certainly is as a territory of the Netherlands, they operate basically the way we do here in the United States.  But there are variations. 

I don‘t know personally what the threshold is for arrest or for search and seizure in Aruba.  But the big thing that comes out of this 10-day period is that they obviously did not have enough evidence, enough probable cause, back on that initial encounter with these three individuals to be able to arrest them or perhaps even to be able to search them. 

You can‘t just go in, in hardly any country and conduct a search just based on your suspicions. 

SCARBOROUGH:  But, Tom, but, Tom, they had no problem, though, Tom, picking up these two security guards and arresting them on suspicion of kidnapping and murder. 

PARKER:  Absolutely.  And I‘m not criticizing them.  I‘m not questioning why any of these individuals were arrested. 

We obviously don‘t know all of the details of the investigation that the police and the FBI do.  But one thing I can assure you of, at least from the FBI perspective, where I spent most of my career, at the point that they have probable cause, at the point they have evidence, they‘re going to move on getting those suspects into custody, or those persons of interest, as they‘ve been called. 

And the best assessment I can make of this situation is that that‘s exactly what they did.  Now, it may well be that, when they first interviewed these individuals, they needed time to check out their stories, to backtrack on what activities they were involved in at the time of her disappearance or leading up to it.

SCARBOROUGH:  I—yes, but again, Tom, they picked up these two security guards with absolutely no evidence at all, from what we understand.  That‘s what concerns me. 

When we come back, more with you, Tom. 

Also going to be talking to Marjanne Havelaar.  She is the editor of the largest Dutch newspaper.  I am going to talk about—to her—about the family of this Dutch judge‘s son who has been arrested and, obviously, from what we‘re hearing tonight, was intimate with Natalee.  We are also going to be talking Haleigh Uncapher.  She is a friend of Natalee‘s who was with her the night she disappeared and is now helping in the search. 

All that, plus the Jackson case, Tom Cruise, Scientology. 

A lot ahead.  SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY is just getting started.  Stick around.


SCARBOROUGH:  We‘re going to be right back.

And when we return, we are going to be talking to people on the island of Aruba, also going to be talking to a friend of Natalee‘s who was with her the night that she disappeared and searching for her. 

And, also, we are going to go out to California and get the very latest in the Michael Jackson case.  The circus act continues, except Michael Jackson may be going to jail soon.  That is what a lot of experts are claiming.  We‘ll talk to our experts out in L.A., when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.

But, first, here is the latest news that you and your family need to know. 


SCARBOROUGH:  With the arrest of three more suspects and also the search for Natalee Holloway entering the 11th day and counting, the question remains, what could have happened to this beautiful, intelligent, attractive young girl from Mountain Brook, Alabama? 

With me now to talk about it is Marjanne Havelaar.  She is the editor of “The Amigoe,” which is, from what I understand, Marjanne, the largest Dutch-language newspaper on the island. 

Thank you for being with us tonight. 

Your island is such a safe island.  I know this has to be a shock to everybody down there.  How often do you have tourists from America or any other country end up missing like this? 

MARJANNE HAVELAAR, EDITOR, “THE AMIGOE”:  As far as I can remember, it never happens.  I work as an editor for five years now on this island.  I live here for 15 years.  And something like this, it‘s really the first time. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It just doesn‘t happen. 

Now, let me ask you something.  You know the family of the Dutch teen.  Obviously, they‘re a very well respected family there.  What can you tell us about them tonight? 

HAVELAAR:  Yes.  You‘re right.  It‘s a very respected family.  As we know, the father is a local judge.  The mother is a teacher.  I mean, they have three kids.  They‘ve never been in trouble.  It‘s a normal, decent family, nothing extraordinary about them.  So, this came really as a shock that their son was named as one of the suspects. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  I‘m sure a lot of people are shocked by that. 

Let me ask you something.  Last night, we had an FBI profiler come on this show.  And they said, you know, one of the things that happens, not only in Aruba, but happens—I mean, it happens in Miami.  It happens all across America, all across the world, is, sometimes, you have date rape drugs that are slipped into drinks.  It happens on college campuses.  A lot of speculation that that may have happened in this case. 

Has that ever happened in Aruba before?  Have police or newspapers ever felt the need to issue warnings to tourists because this happens? 

HAVELAAR:  Yes.  It‘s something that happens on Aruba.  It happened a few times last—over the last few years. 

And, sometimes, in our paper, we issue a warning, not only for the tourists, but also for the local teens.  Once in a while, we hear information about this kind of thing.  . 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, thank you for being with us, Marjanne.  Obviously, we are all going to continue to focus on this story, just like you are.  We greatly appreciate you being with us tonight. 

Let‘s go back now to Tom Parker.  He‘s a former FBI agent. 

Tom, you know, a lot of people are talking about possibly Natalee being killed, murdered on the island.  They‘re searching for her.  But there is a possibility, because of Aruba‘s geographic location, that she could have possibly been taken off the island.  Talk about that. 

PARKER:  Well, obviously, anything is possible as to where she has ended up as a result of this situation. 

And it really comes back to, what was the motivation of whoever took her?  If there was a need to conceal her or to get her removed from any opportunity of somebody finding her, then to take her to another remote island would be very, very logical.  This is why a very important part of this investigation, which I can assure you is under way, they will be dissecting from A to Z all of the activities, the background, where they‘ve been, what they‘ve been doing this past weekend as it relates to these five suspects that are now in custody. 


SCARBOROUGH:  I‘m sorry.  I was just going to say, let‘s put that map back up for—that shows how close Aruba is to Venezuela. 

You had the attorney general coming out earlier today talking about—and there‘s the map—talking about how this search has expanded beyond their borders.  Does the FBI—I mean, have you heard of cases before where somebody got kidnapped from an island and taken to the mainland?  And, of course, the speculation is—and it‘s all speculation—that could have been sold into prostitution or slavery.  Does that ever happen? 

PARKER:  Absolutely.  It‘s happening all over the world. 

And, certainly, that‘s one of the possibilities that the investigators down there are looking at.  And it‘s also logical to start looking beyond Aruba, when we are 10 and 11 days into this and no trace of her has been found, at least as far as we know.  You do start expanding your search.  So, I‘m presuming that it was a natural forward movement for them to expand the search.  But I‘m also guessing that they have developed some information which would indicate that this other island, this remote island, is perhaps somehow involved in this. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Tom, thanks a lot for being with us.  We greatly appreciate it. 

PARKER:  My pleasure.

SCARBOROUGH:  And, obviously, I‘ll tell you what.  A lot of people In Mountain Brook, Alabama, very concerned about what‘s going on tonight, concerned about the fact that Natalee, obviously worst-case scenario, that she is on the island and something terrible happened to her there, but also that she may have been taken off the island.  And, again, this investigation now has expanded beyond Aruba. 

Now let‘s bring in Haleigh Uncapher.  Haleigh is a friend that was with Natalee the night that she disappeared.  And, also, she continues with the valiant search for her friend from Mountain Brook, Alabama. 

Haleigh, thanks a lot for being with us tonight. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Talk about the emotions of today, now in the 11th day.  Are people starting to think that this story just may not have a happy ending? 

UNCAPHER:  I think people are still hopeful.  And they‘re trying not to focus on whether it is going to be a happy ending or not.  I think we‘re really just trying to find Natalee and get some closure to this case. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, today, we got a lot of information on the Dutch man.  You spoke last night—Well, I say man.  He‘s 17 years old, the 17-year-old son, a judge‘s son who is a Dutch guy. 

You talked about the fact that they met the night before she disappeared.  But we‘re hearing now that they met in the casino.  Can you set the stage for those of us in the United States that want to know what the hotel was like where you were staying?  There was a casino nearby.  There were bars nearby.  Talk about the casino where they met. 

Well, the casino and lobby and all that is kind of separate from the sleeping quarters or whatever.  But you have to walk from where your room is, across the way, and then there is a bar on your right.  And then, as you keep walking straight, it comes right into the hotel, the main hotel, where the lobby is and the casino and everything is just right there.  And so, the main hotel kind of...

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  And...

UNCAPHER:  Go ahead. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Keep going. 

UNCAPHER:  Oh, I was just going to say, the hotel surrounds the pool and the bar, kind of. 

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  We‘re hearing also obviously that what Natalee did, meeting this young Dutch man, was not out of the ordinary, that, actually, you had a lot of locals coming into the casino, a lot of locals coming into these bars trying to pick up tourists, which, of course, happens in the Caribbean and also in other vacation resorts.  Is that correct? 

UNCAPHER:  Well, yes. 

I mean, locals are everywhere you go, because they‘re just like you, trying to enjoy themselves as—just as much so.  They were—you know, were pretty much wherever we were, not necessarily only where we were.  But everywhere we went, you know, were locals. 


Now, Natalee—we‘re hearing from these reports that Natalee was intimate with this young man.  Had Natalee talked to you, had she talked to anybody else from Mountain Brook High School that was down there with her on this senior trip about this young man that she had obviously met the night before? 

UNCAPHER:  She had never talked to me about it.  I have not talked to any of her friends.  And from what I know of, they didn‘t know.  They only knew him from Sunday night when—at Carlos ‘n Charlie‘s.

SCARBOROUGH:  Oh, OK.  So, they don‘t know the backstory to it, how—what we‘re hearing today, again, from the statements that were released. 

Talk about the search today.  It looks like you‘ve been out in the sun for the better part of the day looking for Natalee.  It‘s been 11 days now.  This island, as we said last night, is no bigger than Topeka, Kansas. 

There are 700 people that have been out searching.  The FBI is out there.  There are divers out there.  There are search dogs out there, still no—searching for Natalee. 

Where did you all go today?  What—what‘s left to search on the island of Aruba? 

UNCAPHER:  Well, normally, they‘ve been searching from the lighthouse to the Alta Vista, which is a church which they think that Natalee may be.  And then this area, there is just a lot of brush and just a lot of ground to cover and also little homes that we may think that, you know, people don‘t have cable or—we can‘t imagine people not knowing about this, but we are just trying to go out there just to see if, you know, people haven‘t heard about it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Can you talk about talk about your friends, fellow people from Mountain Brook?  What are their thoughts tonight? 

UNCAPHER:  I just think we‘re all just really worried now. 

You know, it‘s our 11th day.  And we‘re all just anxious to find out more news.  And, yes, that‘s about—just really worried. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Haleigh.  All right, Haleigh, thanks a lot. 

We appreciate you being with us tonight.

UNCAPHER:  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Again, good luck on the search.  Our thoughts and prayers are with you and Natalee‘s friends and, obviously, everybody that‘s searching for this young 18-year-old woman. 

Let‘s move on now to the Jackson case, go from Aruba to California.  We‘ll be doing that when we come back from break.  And the thought is, out in Los Angeles and the surrounding areas, that Michael Jackson may be going to jail.  They‘re waiting for the verdict.  And things are starting to get ugly outside the courthouse. 

We‘ll be back with the very latest when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.



SCARBOROUGH:  The jury in the Michael Jackson case had an abbreviated fifth day of deliberations.  I mean, these guys have bankers‘ hours out there.  Still no verdict. 

With me now from Santa Maria—and my apology to bankers—we are going to get the very latest from NBC‘s Karen Brown. 

Karen, we have now entered—we have passed the fifth day, 23 hours of deliberation.  And the freak show outside the courthouse seems to be getting uglier.  You‘re out there officiating.  Get us up to date with the latest. 

KAREN BROWN, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Well, thank goodness, Joe, I‘m actually not officiating.  I‘m up in the tower away from the fans, because, I‘ve got to tell you, they are screaming some pretty obscene and vulgar things at certain members of the media. 

In fact, at least one network has now brought in some private security to watch over their reporters.  Some of the video that we have of the fans we can‘t even show you, because they are doing such obscene things. 

Now, I did just speak to somebody in law enforcement who says that they are very concerned about the fans out here.  One man has already been arrested for being out of control.  And law enforcement did confiscate about two bags of rocks that they were afraid the fans were going to start throwing at the media.  So, at this point, the bomb squad is here.  The SWAT team is here. 

And to give you an idea of how seriously they are taking things, when a verdict comes in, they plan on having snipers on the roof.  Now, moving to Michael Jackson, he was back at the hospital again last night, his spokesperson, Raymone Bain, saying that, indeed, he was just there for a routine scheduled treatment of his back.  And, of course, that was in the middle of the night, as you can see right here, his motorcade leaving without their lights on. 

And I don‘t know who goes to the hospital for a routine treatment, let alone in the middle of the night.  But that‘s what his spokesperson is saying.  Jackson spent the day at the Neverland Ranch today surrounded by his family, a family friend telling me that this is really the first time he has ever seen the entire Jackson family come together as a unit. 

This is very different than when the allegations came out in the early ‘90s, as many of you remember LaToya Jackson taking to the airwaves, saying that she herself was concerned about her brother‘s behavior.  This time around, they are all united behind Jackson.  They are all proclaiming his innocence—Joe.

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Karen Brown, thanks a lot.  We will send an MSNBC football helmet out to you, so you can protect yourself after the verdict is read. 


BROWN:  I‘m going to need it.

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes, probably so.  Thanks a lot.  Greatly appreciate it. 

Now, after 23 hours of deliberations, there is still not a verdict. 

And here to talk about what that may or may not mean are criminal defense attorney Joe Tacopina and prosecutor Mary Fulginiti.

Now, let me begin with you, Joe Tacopina.

A lot of people are saying, the longer this jury goes, the more that it cuts against Michael Jackson.  Is that an oversimplification? 


I mean, every time you hear the experts wax poetic on what it means if a jury is dressed well that day they‘re coming into court, that means they are going to deliver their verdict today, which, obviously, we heard yesterday.  It didn‘t work out.  It‘s like reading tea leaves, Joe.  It really is. 

I‘ve tried 80 some-odd cases to verdict with jury trials.  And I got to tell you, I still never guess it right.  So, you really can‘t put too much into it.  Look, they‘re doing, Joe, what they‘re supposed to be doing.  They just sat through a four-month trial, four months worth of evidence.  The jury charge—the instructions to the jury was over 90 pages in and of itself.  The fact that they are through four or five days of deliberations is normal.  It‘s supposed to be that way. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, Mary, though, of course, a lot of people‘s

reference point has always been, since 1994, at least, the O.J. Simpson

case.  The jury came back in four hours.  That certainly favored the defense.  What about here? 

MARY FULGINITI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR:  Yes, you know, I think I agree with Joe on this.  I think it‘s just to soon to tell. 

This jury has to wade through a mountain of evidence that‘s come in over the past several months and reach verdicts on each of the 10 criminal counts.  That is going to take some time to do.  So, I...

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, Mary, but what does it mean, though, Mary, that we haven‘t even gotten any notes coming out?  Obviously, in most juries, in a case like this, where you‘ve got 10 different counts, you‘ll have the jury that will be sending out notes.  They‘ll be asking questions about evidence.  And, yet, none have been sent out yet.  And, again, they‘re already five, six days into it. 


But I think, in this case, when you have had a case go four months, five or six days into it is not a very long time period, even though we all think it is.  So, I think the fact that there‘s no notes yet isn‘t really indicative of anything.  I think they are still probably wading through the evidence and trying to apply it to each of the counts and determine whether or not the prosecution has satisfied their burden of proof. 

I think you typically see notes, actually, a little bit later on in the deliberation process, when one or two jurors might want to hear additional evidence again, because, you know, they either didn‘t recollect it right or they want to make sure that it was what they thought it was.  So, I don‘t think it‘s unusual. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Joe, talking about armchair quarterbacks, looking at what a jury is doing, trying to guess what a jury is doing—and everybody tries to do it—at what point in this process do you as an attorney start to say, you know what; this is going on too long; it may end up in a hung jury, which, of course, I‘m sure Mr. Jackson would love?

TACOPINA:  Well, you start wondering about that when you get past the seventh or eighth day of deliberations on any trial.  That‘s basically the watershed mark, in my mind. 

And you then really start wondering about it when you start getting notes about discourse in the jury room and so on and so forth.  But, Joe, I got to tell you, as a trial lawyer—and I was a prosecutor, a defense lawyer—and you could ask any trial lawyer.  It‘s the same thing.  You sit around all day.  You wait.  There‘s no anticipation, because there is no notes.  There‘s nothing.  And then it happens like that.  There is the note that there‘s a verdict.

And they should write a book about it one day, I mean, hours of boredom, seconds of terror, because there is nothing like the feeling that is going to go down when the word spreads that there is a verdict in that courtroom.

SCARBOROUGH:  Absolutely.

TACOPINA:  We experienced it with Peterson. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes, absolutely helpless, Joe.

Joe Tacopina, Mary Fulginiti, thanks a lot for being with us tonight.  Wish we had more time, obviously.  The Aruba case, though, that took up more time than we expected.  Thank you so much. 


SCARBOROUGH:  We look forward to seeing you again in SCARBOROUGH


Coming up next, it‘s a match made only in Hollywood.  Tom Cruise and in love with Katie Holmes?  Well, some strange things are happening.  Some are blaming it on Scientology. 

That‘s coming up when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.


SCARBOROUGH:  The busboy who defiantly dialed the wrong number, that‘s coming up next. 

And if you want to find out about more that is going on in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, you can check out my Web site at Joe.MSNBC.com.


SCARBOROUGH:  I got no idea what that tease just meant.  Live TV, baby.



TOM CRUISE, ACTOR:  When I start talking about her, things happen, so...


JAY LENO, HOST:  Right.  Really?

CRUISE:  Yes. 

LENO:  OK.  We can...


CRUISE:  So, don‘t—you know, don‘t.

LENO:  Yes. 

CRUISE:  You don‘t want to—she‘s—it‘s great.  She‘s lovely, really. 

LENO:  No, I—well, I saw you on some—I saw you on “Oprah.”

CRUISE:  I‘m looking at this couch.  I‘m thinking, I don‘t know, you know? 



LENO:  Yes.  There you go.



SCARBOROUGH:  That‘s right, Iceman.  I‘m dangerous. 

Tom‘s dangerous—dangerous to his career.  Now, let me tell you something.  A lot of people big fans of Tom Cruise, but this whole thing‘s been a runaway beer truck.  These two have some of the biggest—two of the biggest movies this year, “Batman Begins” and “War of the Worlds.”  We‘ll see how this adverse publicity affects it. 

Hey, we‘ll see you tomorrow night in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.


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