updated 6/17/2005 8:22:05 AM ET 2005-06-17T12:22:05

Guest: Bob Kunst, Jay Severin, Rachel Maddow, Max Kellerman


TUCKER CARLSON, HOST (voice-over):  From Deep Throat to deep pockets, the runaway price of fame. 

A boost for Hillary in South Carolina.  Is this the start of something big?

U.S. border agents face a question of life and death.

Shower mildew that has got some believers in a lather. 

Plus, meet the new hybrid men.


CARLSON:  Yes, I‘ve got a problem with authority.  I‘ll admit that, in a cheery way.  Not everyone likes the bow tie, I‘ll be honest.  But I like the bow tie.  I respect people who believe something, even if I don‘t agree with them.  It‘s my opinion, wrong as it may be. 


CARLSON:  Welcome to THE SITUATION.  I‘m Tucker Carlson.

Time to unveil our nightly stack of stories, which include Hillary as the favorite in ‘08 and Deep Throat doubling up the runaway bride.  We‘ll explain later.

But joining me now, two people who have appeared on every single episode of this show, New England radio show host Jay Severin and, from Air America, Rachel Maddow. 

Welcome, both.



CARLSON:  First up, the increasingly testy situation in Washington about the U.S. detention center about Guantanamo Bay.


SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS:  You would most certainly believe this must have happened by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime, Pol Pot or others that had no concern for human being.  Sadly, that‘s not the case.  This was the action of Americans. 


CARLSON:  That was Dick Durbin, Democrat of Illinois, speaking this Tuesday.  He‘s the Senate‘s number two ranking Democrat. 

Today, the White House called those comments—quote—“simply reprehensible.”  Durbin refused to apologize, though, instead saying that the administration should apologize for Guantanamo Bay. 

I‘m going to make the obvious point.  And that is, the White House is right in this case.  It‘s true.  What he said is reprehensible.  And it‘s also factually wrong.  It‘s not an analogy that stands up.  The American forces at Gitmo have not engaged in systematic cruelties against prisoners.  I think there have been cruelties committed, but it hasn‘t been anything that is comparable to the Nazis or the Khmer Rouge or the Soviets.  It‘s outrageous.

SEVERIN:  Putting aside that it is disgraceful and un-American to say what he said and a pity that caning has gone out of fashion in the U.S.  Senate, because this would call for it.

CARLSON:  Oh, caning never goes out of fashion.  Come on. 

SEVERIN:  The enormously telling moment here is that it‘s a glimpse inside the Democrats‘ strategy.  They think equating American soldiers and Nazis going to help win them back 51 percent of the vote.  That‘s astounding.  It‘s breathtaking.

MADDOW:  Listen, it‘s never OK to make Hitler or Nazi analogies.  I‘ve always felt that, whether it‘s on the left or the right or anybody.

CARLSON:  Good for you.  Good for you, Rachel.

MADDOW:  It‘s never been OK.

That said, if the administration and the right wing spent as much time going after the people who authorized torture techniques in American-held prisons, in places like Guantanamo, as they did going after people who criticized that, we wouldn‘t be in this mess in the first place. 

Durbin‘s apology when he—or his lack of apology when he came back, he said he didn‘t apologize for his language, which I disagree with.  But he did say that the administration owes the American people an apology for putting our troops at risk.  That, I agree with. 

CARLSON:  Well, the flip side of what you said is, if Dick Durbin spent as much outrage at the detainees themselves, some of whom worked with Osama bin Laden directly, as he did at American soldiers, it would be a little bit more just.

But let‘s be really clear about the torture techniques he was talking about.  He was talking about prisoners chained on the floor in fetal positions, soiled with their own filth, some subjected to rooms where the A.C. was turned up too high.  He was not talking about people being beaten to death or hung by their toes.  I mean, seriously...


MADDOW:  So, you are saying literally that torture hasn‘t happened at Guantanamo? 

CARLSON:  I‘m not saying that at all.


CARLSON:  I‘m saying, let‘s get some perspective.


MADDOW:  You think that torture hasn‘t happened?

CARLSON:  No, hold on.

I‘m not saying that inmates have not been treated badly, maybe some tortured.  But I‘m saying, A, it‘s not systematic.  And, B, it‘s not as appalling as he suggests at all. 


MADDOW:  You have no idea. 

And you have no idea. 

SEVERIN:  Nor do you.

MADDOW:  There‘s never been an independent investigation.

SEVERIN:  Nor do you.

MADDOW:  Right.  But why hasn‘t—why won‘t they allow an independent investigation?


CARLSON:  No, I‘m referring to the same report he was referring to.

MADDOW:  The International Committee of the Red Cross talks about the techniques being tantamount to torture.  Why don‘t we allow there to be an independent investigation?  The administration says no.  None of us know until that happens. 

SEVERIN:  Well, because for the same reason you do other things that are kind of secret in war.  The Red Cross is not exactly, though it has got a very mommy-sounding name, the Red Cross International, Red Cross, not exactly a neutral organization. 

MADDOW:  Again, you go after the critics, the critics, instead of the criticism. 

CARLSON:  All right. 


CARLSON:  Speaking of a situation no longer neutral, situation in Iraq, the increasing, or at least increasingly vocal, American impatience with that war. 

The latest Gallup poll indicates 59 percent of Americans believe the U.S. ought to withdraw some or all of our troops from Iraq.  And, coincidentally, or maybe not, a bipartisan group of congressmen today introduced a binding resolution calling for troop withdrawal to begin on or before October 1, 2006.  The White House of course rejected that call. 

That legislation was partly sponsored by Walter Jones, a Republican, a strong Republican, conservative Republican from North Carolina.  I think he has a point.  I don‘t think you probably ought to set a date for it.  That‘s, I guess, not helpful.  But I do think the administration needs to be prodded to recognize we can‘t afford to have this many troops there.  And we need to get out at some point relatively soon. 

MADDOW:  What‘s interesting is that the left was—ended up being right on this.

I mean, six in 10 Americans now think that troops need to come home from Iraq.  And the Bush administration, I understand why they are opposing this.  But what‘s their plan?  When do they want the troops home?

CARLSON:  Well, I‘m sorry. 


MADDOW:  ... as bringing them home?

CARLSON:  I just can‘t let that pass uncommented upon.  Maybe the far left was right on this.  But mainstream Democrats didn‘t say word one, really, when we went to war. 

SEVERIN:  Or supported it.

CARLSON:  That‘s exactly right, or supported it.

MADDOW:  The mainstream Democrats were wrong on the war if they supported it. 

CARLSON:  Thanks.  Just want to clear that up. 

MADDOW:  My—I—my people, Air America, we were right. 

SEVERIN:  Well, the reason we‘re having problems, this is the classic conundrum, that, whatever we do, it‘s wrong.  We set a date, it‘s wrong.  If we don‘t set a date, it‘s wrong.  It‘s lose-lose.  We shouldn‘t be there.  And there is never a good way out of a bad war. 

MADDOW:  That‘s right. 

SEVERIN:  We have a bad exit strategy because we had no entrance strategy. 

CARLSON:  Well, here‘s the part—here‘s why people don‘t support it, is because they don‘t know what the threshold for victory is.

SEVERIN:  There‘s no mission statement.

CARLSON:  That‘s right.  The president needs to stand up and say, when we do this, something discrete, not make Iraq a great country, but this specific thing, we can leave.  And until then, people think, gosh, we‘re going to be there forever.


MADDOW:  One thing I think is interesting about the deadline, though, is that it not only—yes, you are telling the insurgents when they have to hold on to?  That‘s kind of true. 

But you are also telling the people who have to take over and fight the insurgents...

CARLSON:  Right. 

MADDOW:  ... after we‘re gone when they have to have their stuff together by.  And I think it has got two sides. 

CARLSON:  Right.  I agree.

The next situation may have some conservatives licking their chops.  South Carolina Democrats held their first informal nonbinding vote, known in the business as a straw poll, for the 2008 presidential race.  The not-so-surprise winner was—that‘s right—New York Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton.  Hillary edged out former V.P. candidate John Edwards, once considered the favorite, and also Virginia Governor John Warner. 

And to be accurate, straw polls, not necessarily predictive, as they say in the social sciences. 

SEVERIN:  Worth straw.

CARLSON:  That‘s worth straw. 

SEVERIN:  Worth straw.

CARLSON:  We‘re talking very small numbers here.  Clinton—Mrs.

Clinton had 44 votes, Edwards 34 votes, John Warner, 32, Joseph Biden, 24. 

But the interesting thing to me—and, as a former political consultant, I‘d be interested to know what you think of this, Jay—John Kerry didn‘t even rate.


CARLSON:  This guy is pretty much officially still the leader of the Democratic Party.  He‘s their last candidate and he‘s not even on the list. 

SEVERIN:  Yes.  By convention, he would be the titular head of the party.

CARLSON:  Yes.  That‘s right.  Exactly. 

SEVERIN:  Until there‘s a passing of the torch.

And he‘s on the side of milk cartons, along with John Edwards.  The significance of this is twofold, it seems to me.  Edwards is a native South Carolinian, and he got whooped.  And the other thing is that the media will make a big deal out of this.  So, it becomes, to some degree, a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

The question for Republicans is, do you have to battle a marquee name or the marquee name?  I think Hillary is the nominee.  I predicted in 1998 on MSNBC that Hillary Clinton would be the Democrat nominee, either last time or this time.  Sweet vindication. 

CARLSON:  Is she—is there an alternative?

SEVERIN:  I‘m sorry.  Bittersweet vindication.

CARLSON:  Do you see an alternative to Hillary, Rachel?

MADDOW:  Hillary Clinton will not be the nominee. 

Jay, you‘re a really nice guy.

CARLSON:  OK, save the tape.


CARLSON:  I like sitting next to you.  But it‘s not going to happen. 

There‘s no chance.  Hillary is not going to be the nominee. 

Republicans would love for Hillary to be the nominee.  And when you take a straw poll, if you put Britney Spears on that list, she would have come up on top.  A straw poll just looks at name recognition.  And, yes, she‘s a huge name.  But she‘s not going to be the nominee.  Only Republicans think that. 

SEVERIN:  I think, though, in speaking for people a little bit on the right, we really do fear Hillary Clinton as a candidate. 

CARLSON:  I agree with that.

SEVERIN:  We really do.  I think she‘s be...

MADDOW:  You‘re not tricking me.  You are not luring me into it. 

SEVERIN:  It‘s no trick.

CARLSON:  It‘s not just a briar patch argument. 

SEVERIN:  No.  No.

CARLSON:  I agree with that.  Liberals think she‘s going to lose. 

Republicans recognize she could win. 

MADDOW:  I don‘t think you‘re right.  We‘ll see.

CARLSON:  We‘ll save the tape.


Next, an update on the ongoing and frankly, heartbreaking situation of Katie Wernecke.  She‘s the Texas girl whose Hodgkin‘s disease prompted state officials to take her from her family, put her in foster care to ensure her cancer treatment continued.  After the Wernecke family and the court agreed last week to resume her treatment, a judge today decided that Katie should remain in the custody of the state.  That‘s a ruling her parents‘ lawyer called, not surprisingly, disappointing. 

I was for this, I have to say, the first time we talked about it, because it seemed like her parents were being negligent.  Both her parents came out recently and essentially apologized for not giving her treatment.  Her cancer has returned. 

It seems to me, it can‘t be good for her health, among other things, to keep holding her in state foster care.  I don‘t understand the rationale for holding her now. 

SEVERIN:  The doctor has said—now, there are doctors and doctors. 

Bill Frist is a doctor now, I would remind you.


SEVERIN:  And he does diagnosis by videotape.

MADDOW:  Right. 

SEVERIN:  The original doctor said the return of her cancer was attendant to the lack of treatment. 

Look, it‘s a child.  I‘m a big-L. libertarian.  A lot of us are, but you have to—your kids have to use seat belts.  You can‘t starve them.  You can‘t torture them.  You can‘t have sex with them.  The state has a compelling interest in keeping this child—this child—alive.  If the parent were seeking alternative treatment of some kind, fine.  But they are just saying, come on home.  We don‘t believe in it.  State has an interest.

CARLSON:  Can it be good for her health to be in foster care, though?

MADDOW:  I think that it is going to a little bit woollier, because now that the decision is being—or the question is being raised as to whether or not the parents just made a bad decision in the case or whether they are actually opposed to allowing her to have the right treatment.  And that‘s starting factually to get a little bit unclear. 

CARLSON:  Makes me uncomfortable.

MADDOW:  Yes. 

CARLSON:  Next situation, relative worth.

W. Mark Felt, Deep Throat from Watergate, has sold the movie and book rights to his story to our corporate cousin, Universal Pictures and Public Affairs Publishing, for nearly a million bucks. 

At the same time, notorious runaway bride Jennifer Wilbanks sold her life rights to ReganMedia.  Through the company did not—though the company did not say whether money had changed hands, it‘s been widely reported here in New York that the price tag was about a half million dollars. 

This tells you so much about contemporary American life. 


CARLSON:  Well, let me just make this point.  The obvious point is, oh, the man who brought down the president gets a million and this sort of story-of-the-moment girl gets half that.  And that‘s unfair. 


CARLSON:  I do think that, actually, that the runaway bride was probably a better deal.  I bet you more American—more American book buyers have an interest in her, know who she is, maybe, than Deep Throat. 

MADDOW:  Right. 

For the same reason that Britney Spears would have won the straw poll.  I mean, it‘s just—that‘s the kind of stuff the interests us, like, for right or wrong.  I‘m holding out for bride of Deep Throat.  I think that is going to be the real hot seller. 

SEVERIN:  Teachers—teachers scratch by and ballplayers make billions.

MADDOW:  Yes. 


MADDOW:  Yes. 

SEVERIN:  I—I—this—I have two impressions from this. 

One is that Mark Felt evidently has a much better agent than Monica Lewinsky, before, in this category, you would have thought she would have set the market price. 

MADDOW:  Yes. 

SEVERIN:  And the other one is that he deserves it.  As whistle-blowers go, he stopped a corrupt administration that was perverting the Constitution.  That‘s pretty good.  He‘s not a rat.  Rats, of course, rat out Democrats.


SEVERIN:  He‘s a whistle-blower because he ratted out... 


CARLSON:  But I wonder, though, if people are as interested in Watergate as we think they are.  I think of Watergate as one of those baby boomer obsessions.


CARLSON:  Along with Vietnam and the Kennedy assassination.  They are

significant events.  I‘m not downplaying their significance.  But they are

·         it‘s like Woodstock.  It‘s people of a certain age are obsessed.  No one else cares. 



SEVERIN:  I can‘t believe that the—the ignored story here is that Jennifer Wilbanks apparently had cosmetic breast surgery.  And it‘s been ignored in the media. 

CARLSON:  You know, you‘re right.

MADDOW:  That‘s fascinating.


SEVERIN:  It is to me.

MADDOW:  Can we just blow out the rest of the show and talk about that?

CARLSON:  You know, Jay, it‘s a developing story.  We‘ll get back to it. 


CARLSON:  Still to come on THE SITUATION, besides being enormous celebrities, what do Howard Stern, P. Diddy and Paris Hilton have in common?  Find out later.

Also, Hillary Clinton is certainly the lightning rod of the Democratic Party.  But can she bring home the big prize in 2008?  I‘ll ask the creator of HillaryNow.com when we come back. 


CARLSON:  Does Hillary Clinton have a snowball‘s chance in South Carolina of winning the 2008 presidential race?  I‘ll ask someone who thinks he knows the answer when THE SITUATION continues. 


CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

As we told you earlier, the first straw poll of the 2008 presidential race was held in South Carolina recently, with Senator Clinton the surprise winner.  But should it really come as a surprise?  Not according to our guest tonight, Bob Kunst, the president of HillaryNow.com.  He‘s currently traveling the country promoting Mrs. Clinton‘s candidacy. 

Bob, thanks a lot for joining us. 

BOB KUNST, PRESIDENT, HILLARYNOW.COM:  Thank you for having me.  I‘m glad to be here. 

CARLSON:  Thanks.

My first question is the obvious question.  I don‘t hate Hillary Clinton.  I think she‘s smart and—and fairly charming, and accomplished to some degree.  But what is the essence of her appeal to you?  Why would you spend most of your time promoting her?  What do you so like about Hillary Clinton? 

KUNST:  Well, let me start with the fact that I thoroughly dislike Mr.  Bush, as I think the majority of the country does at this point.  I didn‘t trust Mr. Bush on the 2000 election.  I‘m from Florida, Miami Beach.  We have certainly the concern of the stolen election and, certainly, Iraq and a million other issues, that now the public has, I think, turned away from Bush. 

The question that I was concerned about within the Democratic Party was the lack of a fight, the lack of resistance, the lack of people who were going to come back and offer alternatives. 

CARLSON:  Well, then I‘ve got your guy.  Howard Dean. 


KUNST:  Well, no, no.  Let me give you a better example just from yesterday. 

Former Senator Hollings from South Carolina was at this event.  And he said that his fellow Democrats were suffering from lockjaw, that there isn‘t a resistance movement and that we‘re really in great serious trouble and danger.  And I understand that.  And what I‘m looking for is, where is the opposition?  And I see that Hillary is the strongest Democrat that has tremendous personal abilities. 

I think the—the hostility that she‘s received and the nastiness—because I know—I get all the e-mail from everybody that can‘t stand her.  And I can tell you, bottom line, nobody gets attacked like this woman.  And the fact that she has that strength and has kept her family together is a unique positive...

CARLSON:  Yes, but—but...

KUNST:  ... that I feel needs to be part of where public servants are at. 

CARLSON:  So, people hate her, so...


KUNST:  ... relating to the crisis at hand.  We need to have a strong leader.

CARLSON:  OK.  I mean, I—I understand your desire for somebody who speaks Democratic beliefs clearly. 

KUNST:  And, by the way, that‘s what we presented to the Democrats in South Carolina.  Tucker, I got to tell you... 

CARLSON:  But here‘s my—then, you must be particularly concerned by her obvious move to the—to the center, if not the right, lately. 

KUNST:  Well...


CARLSON:  She‘s been a steadfast supporter of the war in Iraq...

KUNST:  I‘m only concerned whether or not she comes up...


CARLSON:  ... more than I have been.  Hold on. 


CARLSON:  And she‘s also been making these sort of friendly noises about evangelicals and pro-lifers lately.  That‘s not exactly being the liberal standard-bearer, is it?

KUNST:  Well, I‘m not interested in liberal, conservative.  I don‘t think those issues are relevant.

We‘re talking right and wrong here and how we‘re going to develop, not red vs. blue states, but red, white and blue.  How are we going to unite the country to fight the common enemy out there?

And what I see from Hillary‘s position, if she goes to the center and plays out Bill Clinton‘s strategy, that‘s a losing proposition.  That was the Gore campaign.  That‘s the Kerry campaign.  It‘s a disaster.  Nobody is interested.

If she will tell the truth, if she will trust the public, if she will reach the level that the public is already at as a political figure and she will come up with the answers and start now in the Senate, there will be a trust factor for her as president. 


KUNST:  And then we‘ll be able to have the first elected woman president, who is quality and who is fighting back and who is making sense.

CARLSON:  But...


KUNST:  Look, my position on Hillary is, I don‘t care about all the other nonsense and all the labels. 


CARLSON:  Right. 

KUNST:  If you are going to defend the country and you‘re going to protect us...


KUNST:  You‘ll do what‘s right, you can make all these other alliances.  It‘s very nice.  But get to...


CARLSON:  But, let me—hold on.  Let me just ask you—let me ask you an obvious question here just for a second. 


CARLSON:  If—if you are interested in electing a woman Democrat president, understandable desire, it seems sort of insulting to the many other, more accomplished female Democrats, say, in the Senate, people who have been around a lot longer than Mrs. Clinton, have accomplished much more in public service than she has, women like Barbara Boxer, Dianne Feinstein,  Barbara Mikulski, Blanche Lambert Lincoln, et cetera, et cetera. 


KUNST:  Tucker, anybody is welcome to come forward.  Anybody is welcome to come forward. 

Hillary was first lady for eight years, not Barbara Boxer.  Hillary is

·         you know, is a mom with Chelsea.  Hillary has served in the U.S. Senate. 

And she‘s—she‘s not just a politician.  She has a star quality which I have seen.  And I think that‘s an attractive appeal. 

I got to tell you something. 


KUNST:  I just came Bonnaroo Music Festival in Tennessee.  I just went to the Bessie Smith Strut in Chattanooga.  There were 60,000 people there, 80,000 at the previous event.  I saw tons of people who came over and were rallying with me.  And these were Republicans who are angry with Bush.



KUNST:  They gave Bush their support.  They‘re now looking in a different direction.  And Hillary is...


CARLSON:  We‘re out of—I‘m sorry to cut you off.  We are out of time.

It sounds like you are going everywhere around the country.  At some point, this show is going to head out on the road and I hope you will join us there. 

Bob Kunst...

KUNST:  Thank you, sir.  I appreciate being on with you.

CARLSON:  HillaryNow.com.

Thanks for joining us. 

Ahead on THE SITUATION, Garfield High School in Washington state may soon stage the longest and most excruciating graduation ceremony in American history.  We‘ll explain why next in our outsider segment. 

Also, how do you know if you are a girlie man?  Don‘t ask Hans and Franz.  We‘ll give you the inside scoop after these commercial messages. 


CARLSON:  Welcome back.

Time now for “Op-Ed, Op-Ed.”  Not to brag, but we‘ve read just about every editorial page in America, so you don‘t have to.  We have got three of the best, to which Jay, Rachel and I will offer our 20-second retorts.  Ready?

First up, “USA Today.”  James Gannon wonders what‘s wrong with being a white Christian Republican.  He writes this—quote—“If the Republican Party has become the white Christian party, as Howard Dean charges, it‘s partly so because the Democratic Party has made white Christians feel so uncomfortable in its ranks.  Democrats have bent over backwards to please white minority groups, at the expense of us old white guys, who grew up not feeling guilty about being white or Christian.” 

He goes on to say that there were a lot of white Catholic Democrats when he was young, aren‘t so many now, thanks to the Democrats‘ abortion policy, no question about that.  I was struck by the political consequences of this.  It‘s still an overwhelmingly 80 percent white country.  And it‘s still strong—there‘s a strong majority of Christians.  If you don‘t get white Christians in your party, you lose elections is the bottom-line political truth of this. 

SEVERIN:  Gannon is right.  And, by the way, it‘s not really so much that they are being kicked out.  They are defecting, because a lot of, say, in Boston, people grew up with two pictures on the wall, Jesus Christ and John F. Kennedy.  A lot of them are voting Republican because of where the Democrat Party is going.  I‘m still astounded that Dean said these things.

Imagine if a Republican chairman had said, you know, the Democrats are really a party of black, gay, urban trade unionists.  That would have been an awful thing to say, a dopey thing to say. 

MADDOW:  But Dean didn‘t say there‘s anything wrong with being white and Christian.  And I think Americans, whatever they are, don‘t think that any country—or any party in the nation should be representing only one group of people. 

What Dean could have said, if he wanted to more precise was, at the state level, 99 percent of all elected officials who are Republicans are white.  This is not a 99 percent white country.  Therefore, the Republican Party has a problem representing all of us.  That would have been maybe more precise.  But he didn‘t say there was anything wrong with being white or Christian. 

CARLSON:  Well, the suggestion was clearly there. 

SEVERIN:  The insinuation...    


CARLSON:  And it was certainly read that way.

MADDOW:  You guys just interpreted it that way. 

CARLSON:  Well, we and, say, 100 million other Americans.  But, you know...


SEVERIN:  In red states, especially.


CARLSON:  Well, “The Tucson Citizen” says the U.S. Border Patrol will be endangering the lives of illegal immigrants when it changes what has traditionally been a hands-off approach and begins a surveillance of aid camps and water stations in the desert. 

Here‘s what they said: “Border Patrol agents will monitor an immigrant aid camp this summer and watch local water stations maintained by a humanitarian group.  Immigrants, wanting to steer clear of agents, will avoid seeking water or needed medical aid.  More deaths in the hot, barren and forbidding desert are inevitable.   It is cruel to tell immigrants that to seek lifesaving aid, they now must risk arrest.”

In other words, it‘s America‘s fault if illegal immigrants die in the desert trying to sneak into our country illegally.  Totally unfair.  And to suggest that, somehow, the Border Patrol should give a safe haven to people they think are committing a crime is ludicrous.  It‘s like saying, don‘t chase bank robbers because they might trip and fall and hurt themselves.  I don‘t know.  They‘re breaking a law.


MADDOW:  Even the most paranoid anti-immigration crazy on this issue cannot think that it‘s OK to set out water as bait and then catch people when you lure them to it, when the reason they have gone to the bait is to save their lives.  I just don‘t think that makes sense in American values, even if you hate immigrants more than you hate yourself. 

SEVERIN:  Well, you are premature in that declaration, because you hadn‘t heard me yet. 


SEVERIN:  This is a simple one.  This is like insisting that you keep a first aid kit for burglars who may cut themselves breaking—cutting themselves on a window when they break into your house.  This is a criminal act.  There‘s an assumption of risk.  No lifeguard.  Sorry.  Don‘t come in.  The swimming is not fine.  It‘s illegal.  If you get hurt, it‘s your problem, not ours. 


In “The Orlando Sentinel,” Kathleen Parker wonders whether men are being emasculated—quote—“What‘s wrong with the French? One story headlined ‘French men yearn for pregnancy.‘  It seems to speak for itself, n‘est-ce pas?  Another, which announced the birth of a new—quote—

‘hybrid male,‘ describes a creature who wants to wear pink shirts and is no longer interested in playing superhero to a wife and kids”—end quote. 

Now, I‘m not against pink shirts.  I wear them all the time.  But isn‘t it true, everybody is sensitive—is sick of the new age sensitive guy, the metrosexual?  I mean, no one likes him anymore.  It‘s OK for men to admit they‘re pigs, because they are. 

SEVERIN:  Hear, hear.

MADDOW:  I‘m no expert on masculinity.  I‘m going to leave that you fellows here. 

But I would say that the counter side of it, the other side of it, the idea that there is one way to be a normal, acceptable guy is kind of boring.  And I will say that, even though everybody likes to beat up on the French, the French, when you compare them with the average pleated-pants, Frito-eating American guy, the French seem to be doing OK in the romance department.  I‘m not sure we should write them off. 

SEVERIN:  I‘m not sure there are a number of prerequisites, but there sure are disqualifiers.

And speaking of the French, what‘s wrong with French men?  I believe it‘s only a one-hour show, so I can‘t go into that.  Secondly, French men want to be pregnant?  How about utterly unsurprising and...


SEVERIN:  But I‘m prepared to concede metrosexual.  That‘s as far as I will go. 


CARLSON:  I have to say, pleated-pants Frito-eating guys, it‘s a devastating, if unfair, indictment. 



MADDOW:  Does that count as a product placement?

CARLSON:  Yes, it does.


CARLSON:  We‘re getting paid for that.

Thank you, both.  We‘ll be back.  That‘s it for “Op-Ed Op-Ed.” 

Coming up, a lot of the left wing in the blogosphere—I hate that word.  Who wrote this?


CARLSON:  Is obsessed with the Downing Street memo.  Is it a big deal or has the world moved on?

Plus, the very idea of video games as physical education is appalling, unless you‘re the outsider.  Joysticks, 3-D graphics and your kids‘ fitness test next. 


CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

It is now time to meet the outsider, a man from outside the world of cable news who, for the purposes of our show, has agreed to become a permanent devil‘s advocate, willing on occasion even to defend the indefensible. 

Joining us now, ESPN radio host and professional contrarian Max Kellerman.

MAX KELLERMAN, ESPN RADIO HOST:  However, today, I think I believed this. 

CARLSON:  Actually, this first story, Max, I just want to thank you for daring to defend it, because it‘s almost impossible. 


CARLSON:  The Hamptons are the spot where New York City‘s richest, most indulged, and pseudo-famous spend their summer vacations, Max, as you know.  But beware, carefree aristocrats, because the 1,300-member Shinnecock Indian tribe has filed suit against the state of New York.  They claim they own much of the Hamptons, including the land under schools, country clubs, and expensive homes, many of them.  The tribe says it was swindled out of the 3,600-acre property in 1859. 

Now, although the tribe says it doesn‘t want to displace anybody, it doesn‘t want billions in back rent.  It also really wants to bully the state into giving them the right to build a casino in Hamptons... 

KELLERMAN:  Of course.

CARLSON:  ... which is what this really about this.  But let‘s argue the principle here. 

Let‘s say the Shinnecock‘s ancestors were swindled—and we don‘t know that that‘s true.  Let‘s just stipulate they were swindled.  Why should the rest of us, many of us whose ancestors weren‘t even in this country in the 1850s, why should we pay for something that we‘re not in any way responsible for? 

KELLERMAN:  Because we enjoy the benefits of what has transpired since then, largely as a result of the United States government breaking every treaty they ever made with the Native Americans. 

Look, if their argument truly is that they were swindled out of it, they didn‘t get a fair enough deal, that‘s nonsense.  But let‘s wait until the facts come out.  They will have their day in court.  If it turns out that they signed a treaty, and we signed a treaty, and then we broke it, then they‘re entitled to the land. 

CARLSON:  No, again, I want to stick to the principles.  I just want to assume that they were absolutely ripped off by the U.S. government.

KELLERMAN:  At gunpoint.  OK, fine.

CARLSON:  But you are talking about property owners in the Hamptons and taxpayers in the rest of the New York State who had no idea when they moved to New York, when they bought property in the Hamptons, that they were, as you put it, benefiting from this swindle.  So why are they responsible for it?

KELLERMAN:  Well, I have actually—East Hampton, not South Hampton.  But I live in the Hamptons.  And I see clearly where I have benefited from the course of history that this country has taken.  Now, this is the argument for affirmative action.  There‘s inequity.  How do you address that?  How do you make it better?  Well, people are against affirmative action.  I assume you are against affirmative action.

CARLSON:  Vigorously. 

KELLERMAN:  OK.  Reparations, against reparations.  So how do you balance the scales, because the highest degrees of illiteracy, of poverty, of alcoholism, among Native Americans as a direct result of U.S. domestic policy.  So why not just follow the law?  Just follow the law.

CARLSON:  Well, I‘ll tell you, because there‘s a flipside to the first question I asked you.  Why should we pay?  Why should they benefit?  How do we know...


KELLERMAN:  We benefit. 

CARLSON:  No, here‘s my question.  How do we know who is a Shinnecock Indian?  There are no pure Shinnecock Indians.  We‘re talking about people who are an eighth Indian, a sixteenth Indian?  Should they get an eighth of a share of the settlement?  A sixteenth of the share?  And how do we know?  Do we give them blood tests like Goering?  I mean, do you know what I mean? 

What does it mean to be a Shinnecock Indian? 

KELLERMAN:  Let me just say, “How,” because if you get $1.7 billion, I‘m part Shinnecock, I think.  I don‘t know. 

CARLSON:  Yes, I think I am, too.  Let‘s sell discount cigarettes any moment.


Remember when a class valedictorian was the standout scholar of the senior class, the kid with the brain.  Well, in this year‘s graduating class of 406 students at Garfield High in Washington State, there are 44 valedictorians, each with a perfect 4.0 grade point average. 

But that‘s not even the most in the Pacific Time Zone.  A high school in Fresno, California, has 58 valedictorians.  And you know what it says?  You know what this says?

KELLERMAN:  What does it say?

CARLSON:  Grade inflation.  That‘s ludicrous.  A class of kids of 406 kids, 46 of them got a 4.0 for four years?  That means you are cooking the books to make it look like every kid in your school is a genius. 

But the point here is, the school is against competition.  They‘re against making, you know, distinctions between the best and everybody below him. 


CARLSON:  And for that reason, they are not—I‘m just using the correct pronoun...

KELLERMAN:  However unlikely. 

CARLSON:  They are not preparing their students for life.  Because in life, you know...

KELLERMAN:  I went to Hunter High School here in New York, which where actually everyone actually is a genius at this school.  And there‘s actually grade deflation there.  So I sympathize with your point of view. 

CARLSON:  But that‘s New York.

KELLERMAN:  However, out of 400-plus kids, to say 44 kids had straight A‘s—that‘s 10 percent, give or take—if you did a bell curve, you know, you are expecting maybe around 10 percent on one extreme side.  That‘s like within one standard deviation of the norm, if you want to get technical.  I don‘t think it‘s impossible for one-tenth of the student population to be at the top. 

CARLSON:  It may not be.  The question is, though grades are to some extent a relative measure...


CARLSON:  But the point is valedictorian.  It‘s a hierarchical notion.  It‘s the idea that somebody, maybe two people, but really one person is the best.  And that‘s a distinction the school refuses to make and increasingly a lot of our society refuses to make because it‘s deemed meaningless.  But that‘s how the world works. 

KELLERMAN:  But if an A is 4.0, and they are actually getting 4.0s—you know, you could do a spinal tap, and say, “This goes to 11,” fine, do that.  Then give someone a 4.3.  But if you are not going to go to 4.3 -- didn‘t you hate it when you hand in a paper, and a teacher would give you a grade, B-plus.  And you‘d say, “Best paper I ever had, ever received, B-plus.  Why is it B-plus?”  “Because I think you can do better.” 

No, don‘t grade me against some potential I may have.  Grade did I get everything right?  Then I get the A.  And if 44 kids did, they should get the A‘s.

CARLSON:  I was grateful for a B-plus, the rare times I got one. 

Well, time was the only videogames kids got to play in school were educational videogames.  Now, in an effort to fight childhood obesity, the school district in Redlands, California, is adding exertainment.  That‘s a mix of videogames and exercise towards physical fitness program. 

Unlike traditional videogames, players have to move physically to interact with the game.  The school believes the program will attract kids who are not involved in sports or going to the gym.  It will also make a lot of money for Sony.

But here‘s the point I don‘t understand.  These kids are fat because they play too many videogames.  So the solution is, play more videogames?  No, that‘s like methadone.  In this case, it‘s time to go cold turkey. 

Knock off the videogames.  Get outside with a tetherball, buddy.

KELLERMAN:  No, play different kids of videogames.  This, of course, hearkens back to KRS-One‘s edutainment, I believe it was called.  Do you remember that?

CARLSON:  Yes, it was a huge success.  Yes, I remember that, yes.

KELLERMAN:  It was Boogie Down Productions. 

But look, these videogames are interactive.  It‘s not passive, like you are watching television just receiving information.  They are interacting.  And many of them involve hand-eye coordination and even cardiovascular activities. 

CARLSON:  Yes, but, come on.

KELLERMAN:  If they were so bad for you, why does the military train pilots with videogames? 

CARLSON:  Doesn‘t it make you wonder, if you need tens of thousands of dollars of electronic equipment to convince kids to go outdoors?  No.  You hand them a ball.  You say, “Get outside.  Entertain yourself.”  Because that requires creativity and imagination, two things you want to instill in kids.

KELLERMAN:  You are Dana Carvey, basically now, grumpy old man.  I don‘t like the things now compared to the way they used to be. 

CARLSON:  No, I‘m not saying that at all.  I‘m saying...

KELLERMAN:  This is a generational thing where...

CARLSON:  It‘s not a generational thing. 

KELLERMAN:  Of course it is.  You don‘t want to cede power to the new generation because you didn‘t grow up on videogames.  These kids grew up on videogames, and there‘s something about it you don‘t like. 

CARLSON:  Nice try.  Nice try, Max. 

KELLERMAN:  Thank you very much. 

CARLSON:  The point is, I think kids ought to be creative.  And when you give them a rock and a stick and say, “Build something interesting, create your own game,” it forces them to expand their minds. 

KELLERMAN:  Well, actually, there are videogames that force you to be creative.  There are.  I mean, they exist.  And by the way, I don‘t play them.  But I see people, you know, either picking this hallway, they‘re shooting this guy.  You have got to make a lot of decisions. 

CARLSON:  Max, Max, that‘s when you revealed yourself as the videogame addict you are, when you said, “I don‘t play them.”

KELLERMAN:  I‘m not.  I don‘t.  I wish I did.

CARLSON:  We like you anyway, Max Kellerman.  Thanks for joining us. 

Still ahead on THE SITUATION, surgeon and Senator Bill Frist took heat after questioning Terri Schiavo‘s diagnosis from watching a videotape.  Does he think the autopsy proved him wrong?  We‘ll tell you.

Also, how do you remain an ineligible bachelor after going on TV like a lovesick maniac while carrying on with a woman other than your wife?  You‘ll hear the answer to that, too, with the (INAUDIBLE) latest hunk list, next.


CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

We‘ve been rejoined by Rachel and Jay.  And it‘s time now for another stack of piping hot, fresh news.  Yum.

Our first situation, the deal with the Downing Street Memo.  That‘s the recently leaked document that shows British intelligence believed the Bush administration considered war with Iraq inevitable and was twisting the facts to drum up support for an invasion.  The memo is quickly becoming the left‘s own version of the Swift Boat controversy, as Democrats demand an official inquiry. 

I‘ll just say to this—I don‘t know (INAUDIBLE) “there‘s nothing new here.”  I actually don‘t see anything new here.  I lived in Washington during the run-up to the war.  I thought from the beginning the Bush administration was dead on invading Iraq.  I don‘t know what we‘ve learned.  I haven‘t learned anything.

MADDOW:  I‘ll tell you what we learned.  We knew they wanted to go to Iraq, and we knew that the intelligence that brought the country to the position where we wanted to go to war with Iraq was wrong.  But what the memo does is it makes us realize that that intelligence may not have been wrong by accident, or because of incompetence, or because we screwed something up.  That intelligence may have been wrong on purpose, by design. 

CARLSON:  There‘s no evidence of that in the memo, just to be clear. 

MADDOW:  Fixing the facts around to fit the policy.

CARLSON:  There‘s not one example of that given in this memo. 

MADDOW:  Fixing the facts to fit the policy.

SEVERIN:  You watch lawyers say, “Asking us to assume facts not yet in evidence.”  Of course, we were going to go to war.  Nineteen resolutions boasting of weapons of mass destruction, mass murder, the belief by the president that there was clear and present danger.  Everybody knew we were going to war.  This doesn‘t prove anything other than everybody knew we were walking up to war. 

MADDOW:  The memo says we were fixing the intelligence to fit our policy.  Our policy was to go to war.  We made the intelligence meet that.  So was the intelligence deliberately falsified? 

CARLSON:  Well, let me just ask you one very quick question. 


CARLSON:  Why would this administration, or any administration, claim that there are weapons of mass destruction knowing that‘s false, also knowing it would be revealed as false right before a presidential election?  No one would ever do that.  They were wrong.  They were totally wrong, and that‘s terrible.  But they thought they were right. 

MADDOW:  They have the hubris to know that they will never be held accountable for this, because then we‘ll be a nation at war, and then you have to support the commander in chief.  They are not being held accountable for it.  It‘s been proven true. 

CARLSON:  That‘s creepy.  If true, though it‘s not. 


Our next situation involves a deal to let Saudi Arabia off the hook for nuclear inspections.  The U.N.‘s atomic watchdog agency agreed today to let the kingdom submit a declaration instead of undergoing an inspection.  The Saudis insist they have no plans to develop nuclear weapons and never have.

Now, I hate to be the one to defend Saudi Arabia in this case.  I actually don‘t care.  This the IAEA, right?  They should be spending their time finding out if North Korea has nuclear weapons, if Iran has nuclear weapons.  Well, they‘re not.  They have no relationship with North Korea of any kind.  And they‘ve done nothing to slow down the production of nuclear weapons in Iran. 

So what‘s the purpose of this group? 

SEVERIN:  I‘ve got it right here.  “Please excuse Prince Saud today from inspection.”  He‘s got a doctor‘s note.  You know, Dr. Nuke is coming today. 

I feel like I might owe Michael Moore an apology now all of a sudden, because it‘s the Saudis.  I don‘t know, because I don‘t know on what basis we deprive—I mean, I know we do it to be safe, but I don‘t know derivative of what great principle we say to some countries, “You may have nuclear weapons, you may not.” 

I mean, I agree with it, but I‘m not clear on how we have that power. 

MADDOW:  I think the difficult thing to understand here is why the United States would not be pressing for a country that has in the past 20 years had some link to the A.Q. Khan network in Pakistan, had some interest in buying nuclear-capable Pakistani missiles, and that was the home of most of the 9/11 hijackers that we‘d say, “You know what?  We‘re all right with you having less oversight on your nuclear stuff.” 

The only reason that we have done this and not taken a stand here is because Bush is Abdullah‘s poodle.  We live in Saudi Arabia‘s (INAUDIBLE) because of oil. 


CARLSON:  There‘s no question we‘re nice to the Saudis, nicer than we‘d be if they didn‘t have oil.  If they didn‘t have oil, we would laugh at them.  They eat with their hands. 

But let‘s be real.  If we really believe they had nuclear weapons, Israel, if no one else, would go completely ballistic.  We‘d be under so much pressure, correctly, to do something about it, it would be very public.  We would know if they had nuclear weapons, I think.  And I don‘t think they do. 

MADDOW:  Well, if they don‘t—why would we reduce oversight, though, is the question?  What does that harm? 

SEVERIN:  Based on recent intelligence abilities in this country, I‘m not sure if we‘d know if Martha‘s Vineyard had nuclear weapons.  So I don‘t share that confidence.

MADDOW:  That‘s fair enough.

CARLSON:  All right.  Well, here‘s a sad situation involving Terri Schiavo.  And it‘s not yet over.  Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who is also a heart surgeon, said today he does not regret statements he made questioning Schiavo‘s diagnosis. 

Back in March, the senator raised questions about whether Schiavo was in a vegetative state based on his review of video footage.  But today, while he accepted the results of her autopsy, Frist also said, quote, “I wouldn‘t even attempt to make a diagnosis from a videotape.” 

And in fact, he didn‘t make a diagnosis.  He said at the time, “She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli,” end quote.  And looking at the videotape, I did—as a lot of other people did—it did appear that she responded to visual stimuli.  It turns out she probably didn‘t.

I don‘t think in the end this is going to hurt Frist, and I don‘t think it‘s going to hurt the Republican Party.  Twenty years from now, it‘ll be seen as, you know, they tried to stop the state from preventing parents from feeding their daughter.  I think it‘s that clear.  I know you guys don‘t agree.

MADDOW:  How about when Mel Martinez came out and said that if they took the tube out, that she‘d learn to—if they kept her alive, that she would learn to feed herself again.  How about that?

I mean, Republicans came in and tried to practice medicine on this.  Bill Frist, all the worse, because he is actually a doctor.  I want him to run for president, not only because he‘s going to get his clock cleaned, but because it will keep him away from patients for that much longer. 

SEVERIN:  Well, this is a progress.  Frist is a doctor, and he plays one on TV, which I really love.  It‘s a great hybrid.  The Republicans were dead wrong in this.  It was shameful.  They should never have interfered, but it‘s not going to hurt them politically, you‘re right.  I mean, no one is going to really remember this.  In fact, it may help them, because the constituency that cares about this, it may gin them up on it. 

MADDOW:  It has made Frist into a buffoon. 

SEVERIN:  She‘s not going to be...


CARLSON:  I hope that story goes away and never comes back. 

MADDOW:  So does he.

CARLSON:  Next situation, the so-called Minutemen, those civilian-led freelance border guards who spent the spring along the Arizona-Mexico border.  They plan to expand their membership into Canada and shore up our northern boundary this summer, MSNBC has learned. 

The group called the American-Canadian Conservative Coalition will recruit Canadian volunteers to join the U.S.-based Minutemen and hold cross-border vigils along the Michigan-Ontario border. 

Of course, the only Canadians who sneak into our country ever are like comedians, and sitcom actors, and washed-up singers.  I mean, I don‘t think we have a huge problem with illegal Canadian immigration.  You know, but I respect Americans who want to enforce the laws important as, you know, the laws that govern our borders.  Good for them.

SEVERIN:  Signal.  Look, there are illegal immigrants either way, from the north or from the south.  You have to protect your borders.  And the first act of someone who wishes so desperately to become an American that they commit a felony, and they say in doing so, “We, the foreigner, will decide what the laws of the United States are, what the terms and conditions of entering the United States are, not Americans,” tell me again why you want to be an American? 

MADDOW:  I‘m going to order a vigilante group of prison guards to go down to Guantanamo because I think that we are violating the U.S.  Constitution down there.  And then I‘m setting up a vigilante Pentagon because I think the war is illegal.  And I just think, you know, you‘ve got to take these things seriously, take things into your hands. 

CARLSON:  Rachel Maddow‘s shadow government.  That‘s what you‘re setting up.

MADDOW:  The Maddow shadow. 

SEVERIN:  Very good.

MADDOW:  I think it‘s going to work.

CARLSON:  I‘ve got to suggest, it‘s going to be a very boring job looming around northern Maine with the Minutemen up there.

MADDOW:  Waiting for the next guy with the bloody chainsaw... 


CARLSON:  Scamper back to Yuma.  Yes, exactly. 

The next situation, I‘ll admit, it‘s enough to make a man jealous.  “People” magazine, which, according to my sources, is good but not as good as “US Weekly,” has announced its list of the 50 hottest bachelors.  They include, but are not limited to, diminutive punk Orlando Bloom, the most famously promiscuous person alive, Colin Farrell, and the mysteriously appealing Ryan Seacrest of “American Idol” fame. 

You know, it seems to me, this is a curse.  Can you imagine being named one of the most eligible 50 bachelors?  Can you imagine that people are going to come up to you in bars forever after?  I mean, this is bad.

SEVERIN:  That‘s a bad thing? 


SEVERIN:  Wait, so really pretty girls are going to come up to you and say, “Aren‘t you,” and you immediately eliminate it, like a tactical nuclear weapon?  You‘ve eliminated 99 percent of the competition, yes, that‘s really bad. 

MADDOW:  If you can assure that it was only really pretty girls, that‘d probably be fine.


SEVERIN:  Well, that‘s true.  True enough.

MADDOW:  But you know what?  It‘s going to happen in every mall in America.


SEVERIN:  This is an honor roll, by the way, for publicists, is what it really is.  There‘s no achievement here by anybody.  It‘s the honor roll of who has the most juice as a publicist. 

CARLSON:  I was kind of surprised—I mean, Tom Cruise is on the list.  I suspect he‘s going to be on that list—he‘s kind of a perennial eligible bachelor. 

SEVERIN:  Well, especially as so much in love as he is right now with Katie Holmes. 


CARLSON:  Yes, it‘s kind of amazing, sort of an insult to Katie Holmes.  No, but is it a good thing necessarily to be known as a bachelor?  Is it a bad—I mean, does that mean you‘re too...

MADDOW:  Is it kind of like being on the cover of “Sports Illustrated”?  Does it jinx you and therefore ensure that you either get married or something horrible is revealed about you in the next year? 

SEVERIN:  It‘s also in the eye of the beholder in the culture. 

Confirmed bachelor means something very different to some people.


SEVERIN:  ... “People” magazine‘s bachelor. 

CARLSON:  What, you are so hard to deal with that nobody wants to marry you? 

MADDOW:  Right, exactly.  I don‘t know.  I think that, you know, people all over America are hoping for a minder from Tom Cruise someday.  We can all dream.  Maybe I‘ll get a minder. 

CARLSON:  Yes, not one of my dreams.  But thank you.

SEVERIN:  Nor mine. 

CARLSON:  Rachel Maddow, Jay Severin, thanks.

SEVERIN:  Tucker.

CARLSON:  Coming up with THE SITUATION, a rock star with a lot of money and famous girlfriends decided a bar brawl was a good idea.  What‘s his beef?  Find out next, on the “Cutting Room Floor.”


CARLSON:  Welcome back.  Time now to sweep up the “Cutting Room Floor.”  Our producer, Willie Geist (ph), has collected all of the stories that didn‘t make the show and he‘s brought them to us. 

WILLIE GEIST (ph), PRODUCER:  Tucker, good show.  Quick note to start off the block here.  The “Forbes” list of the most powerful people in media came out.  Oprah number one.  I didn‘t see your name on it.  Others receiving votes, something like that.  Where would you place yourself on the list? 

CARLSON:  This is our fourth day on the air, Willie.  Give it time. 

GEIST:  Will do.  Go get them.

CARLSON:  Thank you, sir.

All right.  Kid Rock, the self-proclaimed American badass, lived up to his reputation in a Nashville strip club a couple of months ago.  Now he‘s paying the price.  As you can see in this surveillance video, Rock got into a nice scrap with the D.J. at Christie‘s Cabaret in Nashville, Tennessee.  The rock star pleaded no contest to assault charges.  The D.J., predictably, now filed a $575,000 civil suit. 

GEIST:  Tucker, I have to side with the D.J. on this one.  I went to school in Nashville.  I‘ve been to Christie‘s Cabaret.  They run a class operation.  You act like a gentleman, you‘ll be treated like one, hotshot. 

CARLSON:  I can‘t disagree, Willie. 

GEIST:  Good people over there.

CARLSON:  Never having been to Christie‘s, I‘ll take it on faith. 

GEIST:  Just trust me.

CARLSON:  Everyone knows dental hygiene never been a particular strength of the British.  It turns out they don‘t smell that great, either.  The managing director of the London Underground, the city‘s subway system, has made a public plea to Londoners to shower before they take the train during the sweaty summer months, saying, quote, “To the extent people can practice personal hygiene, it would help us.”

GEIST:  True enough.  And as long as we are on the subject, I‘d like to make a public plea to the riders of the New York City subway.  Shower every now and again.  It wouldn‘t kill you.  And Drakkar Noir does not constitute a shower.  That‘s an important on that story.

CARLSON:  No, it doesn‘t.  I bet you the British subway riders are dirtier than the New York ones. 

GEIST:  Indeed. 

CARLSON:  Religious figures continue to turn up in the darnedest places.  You‘ll remember the Virgin Mary who chose to reveal herself in an underpass water stain a couple of months ago.  Now Jesus has turned up in a Pittsburgh men‘s bathroom.  Jeffrey Rigo says he saw the face of Jesus in a stain near his bathtub.  He immediately removed the plaster so he could put it on eBay. 

GEIST:  Naturally.  You‘ve got to put it on eBay.

The best part of this story, Tucker—and I‘m not making this up.  This is true.  The guy gets out of the shower, says, “Jesus Christ!”  His wife runs in, “What‘s wrong?  What‘s wrong?”  “No, no, no, Jesus Christ right there.”  They instantly put it in plaster.  It‘s on eBay.  They want to get two grand for it is their goal. 

CARLSON:  I‘ve got to be honest with you.  If that happened to my bathroom, I would be afraid to sell it on eBay.  This is a sign.  What, God‘s telling you to sell it on eBay?  I don‘t think so. 

GEIST:  Do you really think that looked like Jesus, though?  I think we‘re getting a little interpretative here.

CARLSON:  I still wouldn‘t sell it on eBay.  I cower at the thought. 

Now that summer‘s a few days away, city officials in Aurora, Illinois, have decided it might be time for the Christmas decorations to come down.  City alderwoman Juany Garza has served notice to Aurora residents their plastic reindeer and holiday lights should be removed ASAP.  One man replied by saying, quote, “You‘re going to have to put them up again, so just leave them up.” 

GEIST:  That makes sense.  You‘re a libertarian.  How do you feel about big government legislating holiday spirit?  Because I don‘t like it one little bit.

CARLSON:  It sounds like the residents of aurora don‘t like to make any unnecessary movements. 

GEIST:  No, I don‘t either, actually.  I say leave the lights up, fight the power. 

CARLSON:  I agree with that.  The man wants it taken down. 

GEIST:  That‘s right.

CARLSON:  And now for one of the greatest stories ever told.  An alleged armed robber walked into an Arkansas beauty school with a gun and demanded that 30 female students hand over their purses.  What he got instead was a beauty-school beat-down.  The students attacked the man with curling irons and other beauty supplies until police arrived to haul the bloody suspect away. 

Bloodied and ashamed, I would add.

GEIST:  I totally understand.  And a little piece of advice for this guy.  Don‘t tell your cellmate why you‘re in the joint.  If you let him in on the secret that you got manhandled by a bunch of beauticians, it might send the wrong message.  Just be careful.

CARLSON:  It‘s going to be tough in the showers ever after.

Willie Geist, thanks.

That‘s THE SITUATION for tonight.  Thanks for watching.  I‘m Tucker Carlson.


Content and programming copyright 2005 NBC.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon NBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.


Discussion comments