updated 6/21/2005 10:28:25 AM ET 2005-06-21T14:28:25

Guest: De Lacy Davis, Eddie DePaula, David Edmunds, Tim Miller, Linda Allison, Ginny Walia, Candice DeLong, Benvinda De Sousa>

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Developing news tonight in Aruba, as the mystery of Natalee Holloway's disappearance deepens.  So, why are they interviewing the father of one of the key suspects? 

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  No passport required and only common sense allowed. 

Police press four key suspects for answers, but still come up empty-handed, as all eyes turn to a prominent Aruban official who prosecutors are now ominously calling a witness to Natalee's disappearance. 

Meanwhile, Natalee's family prays for a happy ending.  We're live with the latest on the girl who is still lost in paradise. 

Then, the search for a missing Boy Scout. 


TOBY HAWKINS, FATHER OF BRENNAN:  And if you can find time to come up here and help us.  Please do. 


SCARBOROUGH:  As Brennan Hawkins' parents plead for help.  Is it an accident or a crime?  We'll talk to a sheriff who says he's not so sure. 



UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  On the floor.  On the floor.


SCARBOROUGH:  The small businessman who fought off an armed intruder and lived to tell about it without firing a shot.  Now this jewelry store hero comes to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. 

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, it was three weeks ago today that Natalee Holloway vanished on the island of Aruba.  Her mother found her digital camera in her hotel room and has just released these pictures from graduation day, just before Natalee left for her trip. 

The arrest of a fourth suspect has turned up little, if no evidence. 

And Natalee's family is still desperate for answers, any answers. 

With us now live from the very latest in Aruba is NBC's Martin Savidge. 

Martin, what do you have for us tonight? 

MARTIN SAVIDGE, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Joe, a couple of late developments.  There were some reports that the family has hired a Texas company to come in and help search for Natalie. 

The clarification on that is, they have not hired that company.  There is a company out of Texas that specializes in using cadaver dogs that is volunteering its services.  Exactly when they will be brought in and how they will be used is still being firmed up.

Also, there had been a report that the family is preparing a lawsuit, demanding that they be given the information that investigators have received so far in their investigation.  You'll find out from the attorney that that is not exactly correct.  They have hired an attorney, but there is no lawsuit pending. 

On other developments tonight, we had been anticipating that two of the prime suspects were going to be moved from jail to an actual prison.  KIA prison is located on the other side of the island.  They will be moved.  It's just not going to happen tonight, a clear indication there that they are probably going to be held for quite some time.  All three suspects will eventually end up in that prison. 

And then we wanted to tell you about the father of Paul Van Der Sloot.  He was interviewed over the weekend.  You mentioned that.  It was, I think, five hours on Saturday, went to almost 10:00 at night.  And then it also continued for another two hours on Sunday morning.  We're told that was when he was reviewing the statement he made to police.  So, very interesting that, right now, he's being called a witness in this investigation.

But his son, 17-year-old Joran, is one of the prime suspects in this case.  And then, finally, Steven Croes, he is the deejay for the party boat that was arrested earlier in the week, or latest last week.  He went before a judge today.  It was a routine hearing.  Primarily, the judge had to determine if there's enough evidence to warrant him still being held.  The judge said, yes, indeed, there's enough evidence.  He will be held for another eight days—Joe.

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, Martin, it sounds like the worm is sort of turning down there.  Here you have this judicial official, not a judge yet, but certainly very well connected man in Aruba.  And, at one point, a lot of people are saying they won't even arrest his son because he has so much influence.  Now he's being dragged in on the weekend and they're trying to get some information from him. 

Certainly, it looks like Aruban officials are now pulling out all the stops to get all the information they can get on this case.  Talk about just how desperate they are to start getting some answers. 

SAVIDGE:  Well, they know that time is running against them for a number of reasons.  Naturally, they want to find Natalee Holloway, if she's still alive.  If, tragically, something else has happened to her and she's been murdered, time is also a factor there, because the body is going to be the most significant piece of evidence that would aid the investigation. 

You've got a lot of heat out here and you have a lot of humidity and a lot of factors that could cause it to deteriorate and lose that evidence.  So, they are pushing as hard as they can, not on just the three primary suspects, but bringing in people who may be related and trying to question anybody and everybody who could have some information.  And that includes the young man's father, no matter his position—Joe.

SCARBOROUGH:  All right. 

All right.  Thanks so much, Martin Savidge.  We greatly appreciate the update. 

And let me tell you, in just a few minutes, we're going to be talking to a member of Natalee's family to find out how they're doing in this search as it enters its fourth week. 

And I got to tell you something, friends.  Right now, that's the biggest problem we have.  You've got a degradation of physical evidence.  At this point, three weeks into it, I'm afraid that, if she has died, they may not even be able to figure out what the cause of death is.  And why is that?  You want to know why that is?  That's because they allowed 11 days to pass until they picked up the three young men who were last seen with Natalee on the night she disappeared three weeks ago. 

It was inexcusable then.  It's inexcusable now.  The Aruban authorities have absolutely no answers.  And you know what?  You know why you're not hearing more about this?  Because Natalee's parents and Natalee's relatives, as you're going to find out in a minute, when we interview her aunt, really don't feel comfortable coming out and bashing the Aruban authorities while the investigation is still ongoing. 

But let me tell you something, friends.  If it was your daughter or if it were my daughter and the Aruban authorities had dragged their feet for three weeks, I'll tell you what.  You would have been just as angry as I am tonight and as I'm sure Natalee's family is. 

With me now, speaking of Natalee's family, is Benvinda De Sousa.  She's an attorney in Aruba and she's been hired by Natalee's stepfather to help the family navigate the complicated Dutch legal system. 

Thanks so much for being with us. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Tell us, what is your first mission for the family? 

DE SOUSA:  First and foremost, my mission is to guide the family through these difficult times and providing them with legal counsel, explaining to them how the system works here, being a liaison between the authorities investigating this case, the prosecution, and the family, providing information that we are able to gather from those authorities, relaying them to the family as quickly and as best as we can. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, so much—so much attention in the United States has focused on the first days of the investigation, the first 11 days of the investigation, a critical time when they allowed the three key suspects to roam free outside a jail. 

Have you gotten any answers from the authorities yet or do you expect to get any answers from authorities as why—as to why they allowed these three suspects to roam free for so long? 

DE SOUSA:  My understanding is—and I know that, as the investigation progresses, we will get answers to all of our questions.  That is my understanding. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, we heard a report initially that the family was going to sue to get information.  Martin Savidge tells us that's not exactly right.  What is the story? 

DE SOUSA:  The story is as follows. 

First and foremost, under a Dutch-Aruban law, the prosecution—when there is an investigation going on, the prosecution is not under any obligation whatsoever to divulge information, because they're still investigating.  There is a possibility in our legal criminal system for family or a victim, a person who feels victimized by any possible criminal act to file a joinder.  It's called a joinder victimized party. 

What that does is that you—actually, you become—a civilian party becomes a party in the criminal—in the criminal process.  That entails a few benefits, among other things, being informed as to the progress of the investigation and having a closer contact with the authorities. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Well, they certainly need it, Ms. De Sousa.  Thanks a lot for being with us tonight and good luck getting the answers that this family so desperately needs. 

DE SOUSA:  Thank you very much.

SCARBOROUGH:  And now let's turn to our experts.

Candice DeLong, she's a former FBI profiler and the author of “Special Agent,” and also Ginny Walia.  She's a defense attorney and also a forensics expert. 

Candice DeLong, there's so many things that we do not know.  Tell me tonight, what do we know? 

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER:  Well, we know that these young men, the three young men being held, were the last ones to be seen with her.  And, apparently, we also...

SCARBOROUGH:  Do we know that one these three men were the murderers? 

DELONG:  I don't know that—if you're asking me what I think, I think that's probably going to turn out to be the case. 

And part of the reason I feel very strongly about that is, we know they left with her.  They couldn't lie about that.  There were too many witnesses.  But they did lie apparently about bringing her back to the hotel.  The outside surveillance photographs do not confirm their story. 

So, here's what we have.  They say they left with her.  They couldn't lie about that.  They say they were with her for an hour, brought her back, and we know that that's a lie.  So, I have a huge problem reconciling that everything is OK.  And since they've...


SCARBOROUGH:  What does that tell you?  What does that tell you?  I mean, you've got Joran that has got one story, that he left Natalee on the beach drunk.  You've got the two brothers saying that they left Natalee and Joran on the beach.  They're liars.  They're all liars.  Does that tell you that one of them is a murderer? 

DELONG:  Well, it would be a quantum leap to go from—to think someone that lies would also be a murderer.  However...

SCARBOROUGH:  No, no, no, I know that. 

But, I mean, in a situation like this, though, if you've got three guys that come up with three different stories, doesn't that raise about as big a red flag as you can have raised in a murder investigation? 

DELONG:  Absolutely.  I think it's a logical conclusion that she met an untimely demise at their hands. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And, Ginny, let me ask you this question.

Tonight, unfortunately, more and more people are thinking that she's not alive.  Let's say, unfortunately, that she tragically died.  Even if they find her body today, is there any chance that they can find out how she died or will the evidence have been so compromised by the three weeks' passage in the hot sun that we may never have the answer to that question? 

GINNY WALIA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  I think it's along those lines.  The problem is, the DNA evidence in this case is not going to play a very strong role. 

The boys have come up with a story that says they were with her.  So, you look for hairs, saliva, blood.  Blood shouldn't be there, but all these things...


SCARBOROUGH:  OK, but they—hold on a second, though, Ginny.  They had 11 days, though, to clean up their clothes. They had 11 days to clean up their car.  They had 11 days to clean up their story.  Couldn't they screw up all the DNA evidence away over those 11 days that these idiots down in Aruba let these three boys roam free? 

WALIA:  I don't think the boys are that sophisticated. 

And I think really high-technology DNA evidence can still be found after you broom and sweep and all that.  But the problem is, all of these boys' DNA and the girl's DNA is supposed to be in all the places that their story say it's supposed to be.  So, what does it really tell you? 

They said, one of them made out with her, so saliva, hair.  They were with her.  Now, talking about her being in the ocean, yes, her body is decomposing.  Unless she was hit with something before she drowned, the DNA evidence, along with her, is decomposing in the waters surrounding Aruba. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Ginny, stay with us. 

Candice, also stay with us. 

We have a lot more straight ahead.  Up next, the Holloway family, it's taken matters into their own hands.  We're going to be talking to Natalee's family coming up next. 

And also, the family is going to be getting help from this man.  He's heading to Aruba tomorrow.  But, tonight, he's in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to tell us how he's going to help try to find Natalee and why it's so personal to him. 

And also a developing story in Utah tonight, the search for a missing 11-year-old Boy Scout who vanished without a trace.  We're going to be talking to a sheriff who says everybody's still a suspect in that case, including Boy Scout leaders. 

It's a busy night in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY and we're just getting started, so stick around. 


SCARBOROUGH:  A would-be robber gets the shock of his life when the store owner turns the tables on him.  You're going to see what happened and hear from a cop who is actually attacking the guy that is defending himself and his store.  That's coming up when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.



SCARBOROUGH:  As the search for Natalee Holloway stretches into its fourth desperate week, her family wants answers. 

Just before we came on the air, I spoke with Natalee's aunt, Linda Allison, and I asked her if the family was angry with authorities in Aruba. 


LINDA ALLISON, AUNT OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  Well, I can say there is a level of frustration, obviously, in the first week, not knowing how the system works with the Dutch law and how they bring them in as witnesses. 

And I think we've gotten on track a little bit better now with the communication.  We have somebody that makes contact with the family twice a week—I'm sorry, twice a day now.  FBI comes in and tries to answer any questions that the family may have. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, even people—I mean, people back in the states that obviously aren't connected with Natalee, don't know Natalee, they are angry. 

My father yesterday at Father's Day's dinner said, how could they let that boy go free for 10, 11 days just because he was connected with a judge?  Have you got an answer on how they could have allowed these three young men, who so obviously have the answer to this mystery, how they could have let them walk free for 10, 11 days?  Has anybody given you a satisfactory answer? 

ALLISON:  Just speaking from my personal opinion—and this is not on behalf of the family—I'm not aware of any kind of explanation as to why this went on for so long before they actually brought them in as suspects. 

SCARBOROUGH:  What do you think about the father being questioned as a witness this weekend?  Do you think he may have some answers? 

ALLISON:  Well, obviously, with him being a parent, he would surely know the whereabouts of his son in the wee hours of the morning on Sunday night or Monday morning.  I would think your parental responsibilities, with a teenager needing to attend school the next morning, that they would at least be—cell phone contact or something, trying to make sure they know their whereabouts and when they arrived at home. 

SCARBOROUGH:  How's Natalee's parents doing right now? 

ALLISON:  Well, it's difficult. 

Yesterday was a very difficult day with my brother Dave, obviously, Father's Day a day to be with your family.  With Natalee still being gone, that's just been—it was a very emotional day for him.  And then, of course, with any parent, just the case in Utah, you've got these parents that are very stressed now that they've been missing their son for two days.  I think everyone can surely appreciate what it's like. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Obviously, you all are in agony tonight, still wondering about Natalee, what happened, where she is, is there any hope left. 


SCARBOROUGH:  What would you like the Aruban government to do in this investigation to help you, to help your family, to help this investigation move closer to a conclusion? 


Obviously, we'd like to know all the details, but, again, we have been told that they don't want to risk anything as far as the integrity of the investigation.  This is a small island as far as people getting information spread throughout the area.  But it's also a very large island when you're looking for an individual.  This is a needle in a haystack, and we still don't know any answers and we're hoping that this is going to be resolved soon. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right. 

Linda Allison, thank you so much for being with us tonight.  Like I said before, our thoughts and prayers are with you and with the family.  And let's pray to God for a happy ending here. 

ALLISON:  Yes.  Thank you so much. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Good night. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Now, with the frustration building, Natalee's family has called on an all-volunteer search team from Texas.  they're the A-team.  And the man who is going to lead that search is Tim Miller.  He's the founder and the director of Texas EquuSearch.  They're a mountain search and recovery team.  And he's headed to Aruba tomorrow.  And he joins us exclusively tonight in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

Mr. Miller, thanks a lot for being with us. 

You're volunteering your time to go down there to help find Natalee.  But, for you, this isn't just about Natalee.  It's very personal.  Tell us why. 

TIM MILLER, FOUNDER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH:  Well, I mean, I've been on that side also with my own daughter's disappearance.

And law enforcement said she was a runaway.  We couldn't get any help.  There weren't any volunteer organizations.  I went through this frustration for 17 months.  And, unfortunately, Laura's body was found not very far from our home.  So, I've been there.  I started following missing persons cases.  I started working with some families and stuff, and I started an organization in 2000, EquuSearch, and just using horses.

And we've grown from that to some resources that I think are pretty incredible.  And, in this five years, we've done 451 searches. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  Everybody that I have talked to says your organization does remarkable work.  That's why I said it was the A-team of these types of searches. 

MILLER:  Thank you.  A-team. 



Let—let—let me ask you this question.  Why—why—what do you see on TV that's happening in Aruba that causes you concern, that makes you think that you can go down there and do something that the Aruban authorities, let's face it, they just haven't been able to do? 

MILLER:  Well, in defense to all that, they're doing an investigation.  And we really don't know what was going on with the search.  We were hearing that they had some divers that never went in the water anywhere, and we're certainly bringing more than dogs over there. 

We've done a lot of work today.  We've started out with bringing eight people.  Now we're up to 17 people.  We're bringing some dogs that are well-known around this country.  We feel as though they're very, very capable dogs.  We're bringing—also bringing some sidescan sonar.  We're going to be doing some things in the water and probably 24 hours a day for the time that we're there. 

One person with this sidescan sonar has found 38 drowning victims in less than four years, been very successful.  We also have two members of Harris County Sheriff's Department right here in Houston that are coming.  We're actually renting sidescan sonar equipment, some other equipment.  So, we want to do a lot of things in the water.  We want to do a lot of things on the land. 

We want to get a lot of people in Aruba to come out and help us in these efforts.  And we're also reaching out to the community for some financial support.  This thing has grown far, far larger than we anticipated in the beginning. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I'll tell you what.  It really has.  I mean, it continues to grow.

And, again, everything I hear about what you all do is just topnotch.  I thank you for being with us.  We're going to be following your story, obviously, down in Aruba. 

Now let's bring back our two experts, former FBI profiler Candice DeLong and also Ginny Walia. 

Candice, they yanked the father of Joran this past weekend, the key suspect, as far as I'm concerned, the guy who I think, in the end, we may find out actually did it.  And they pulled in his father.  Why?  And what do you think they were looking for? 

DELONG:  Well, a five-hour-long interview, that's a very long interview of a parent of a kid who is suspected in a crime. 

What they were asking him was basically, what do you know about anything from midnight Sunday of May 30 up until now?  What was your son doing?  Where were you, these kinds of things?  Have you been in his room?  When did he take the car?  Things like that, nailing him down. 

What I find interesting, Joe, is that he had to be brought in, that he didn't volunteer to go in 11 days ago when his son was—was picked up. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And, obviously, this guy was with—this father was with his son for those 11 days that passed.  He had to learn something in their home, didn't he? 

DELONG:  Well, one would think.  I mean, I'm a parent, too.  My son is older than that now, but I like to think, if he'd been involved in something, even peripherally, at the age of 17, I would have been able to detect something was wrong. 


DELONG:  And this man is in the business of dealing with people are under stress that are in trouble.  So, I think so.  I think, if his son did something wrong, he probably would know it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I think he would have picked it up and I think the police know that.  And we certainly know that tonight. 

Ginny Walia, I want to thank you for being with us. 

And, Candice, if you'll stick around, because we have a lot more coming up. 

When we come back, we're going to join the desperate search for a Boy Scout missing for days in Utah.  The sheriff says it could be foul play and he's not ruling out any suspects. 

Then, a store owner turns the tables on a would-be robber and we have the entire amazing video. 

And, finally, what do Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Robert Redford, Karl Rove and the Reverend Billy Graham all have in common?  They're all in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY this week.  You're not going to want to miss a minute of it tonight or for the rest of the week.

We'll be right back in a second.


SCARBOROUGH:  The search for a missing Boy Scout lost in the wilderness, we're going to get the very latest live on that story. 

Plus, a store owner who turned the tables on a would-be robber. 

You're not going to want to miss that story. 

But, first, here's the latest news that you and your family need to know. 


SCARBOROUGH:  A desperate search continues in Utah for 11-year-old Brennan Hawkins.  Now, this young boy has been missing since late Friday.  Brennan disappeared from a Boy Scout camp in the mountains, about 80 miles east of Salt Lake City. 

With me now from Utah is NBC's Michelle Kosinski. 

Michelle, give us the latest in the search for little Brennan. 


And the word you hear more of now is frustration.  How does an 11-year-old Scout disappear without a trace from an area where there are 1,500 other people?  Today, the sheriff shed some light on that.  He said at the time Brennan was finishing up with a climbing wall, most other people at the Boy Scout camp were already in the dining hall. 

He says there's no evidence that any crime has occurred, but there are detectives now interviewing scouts and troop leaders who were there.  What do you do in the meantime?  You keep searching, 600 strong today.  They were out on ATVs, on horses.  Tonight, some of them are going to don night-vision goggles and walk around this dangerous area. 

It's interesting.  The sheriff says, even though this area looks absolutely vast, the area they're targeting is quite small, just the valley, because they think it's just about impossible that Brennan, at 11 years old, could scale these walls surrounding around it.  They also think they've searched that area of high probability pretty well, except, he says, for the river, deeper and faster than he thought. 

The sheriff calls it a nightmare, but he intends to search it again, as well as the areas they've already covered and beyond—Joe, back to you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Michelle, adding to this mystery, of course, is the fact that, a year ago, a 12-year-old boy went missing.  And he was camping just like Brennan, and he went missing and has never been found.  Tell us the story of Garrett. 

KOSINSKI:  Different circumstances, but eerie similarities as well. 

It's about this same year, about 10 miles from where Garrett went missing in August.  He was 12 years old.  He was camping in a rougher area.  There were cliffs.  He was with his father, also a Boy Scout.  But there's a possibility he may have fallen from a cliff, much more difficult area to search.  But the sheriff says, this is a flat area.  This is a valley. 

The one rough spot that you really see, you know, in addition to walking the terrain, which has its bumps and ravines, is that Bear River.  It's high at this time of year.  It's very fast.  And that river is only about 50 yards from where Brennan disappeared.  Is that a possibility?  Of course, it is.  The family doesn't want to think that.  Nobody wants to think that he went into the river and may not be found.

But, you know, there's a lot of optimism here too.  It is possible that he survived, even after four nights, because the sheriff keeps emphasizing, the weather here is almost unseasonably warm.  At night, it hasn't been dropping down. 

So, a number of people we've talked to feel it is absolutely possible that he would survive these nights. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thank you so much, Michelle.  We greatly appreciate it. 

And, certainly, let's hope that the news is good. 

Now, Brennan's parents made an emotional plea on “The Today Show” this morning.  Take a listen to what they had to say. 


HAWKINS:  Right now, my feeling is that, in many respects, we're no closer to finding Brennan, you know.  And we look out in this darkness now.  And, somewhere, my son is out there.  And if you can find time to come up here and help us, please do.  That's what we need now.  We need people to come up and help. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Oh, it's such a sad, such a tragic story. 

And I got to tell you, friends.  My two sons were in Boy Scouts.  And I cannot imagine, because, again, I understand that, when they went out on these camping trips, they were watched so closely.  I cannot imagine a young 11-year-old boy who is able to slip out of camp and get away, the way that Brennan allegedly got away.  It just—something doesn't add up. 

And, earlier, I talked to Summit County Sheriff Dave Edmunds and I asked him about it and asked him to give me the very latest on the search for young Brennan. 


DAVID EDMUNDS, SUMMIT COUNTY SHERIFF:  We've kind of covered a lot of the high-probability areas and we're moving now to some of the lower-probability areas.

And this canyon that we're in here has pretty much been covered really well, with the exception of the river.  So, we're moving now on to the ridges and some of these areas that we really don't believe that he would have gone, but there's always that remote possibility. 

SCARBOROUGH:  A lot of people are speculating—and it's only speculation—that another 12-year-old boy was lost last year, disappeared, never found in this same spot.  And some people are saying these two incidences may be connected.  Is that possible? 

EDMUNDS:  Well, I can see why people are coming to that conclusion.

And, you know, when these types of cases happen, there's always a degree of sensationalism that accompanies, particularly since these kids were so close in age and they went missing from the same area.  I think there are some pretty distinct differences in the two cases, the terrain that they both went missing from, very different.  The Hawkins boy went missing from an established Scout camp with a large number of people attending. 

Bardsley went missing from an isolated camp site with just a few people.  And so, there are some significant differences.  But I can see where people would say that.  And, immediately—and I want to state this categorically—when we got the call, we immediately started a possible kidnapping investigation. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, right now, you have a criminal investigation opened up, even though you don't have any leads.  How long do you continue that investigation?  How long do you continue the search?  When do you go to the parents and give them the bad news, that you just think their son wandered off and that there's no way he could still be alive? 

EDMUNDS:  Well, obviously, we're going to come to that point.  We're not quite there yet.  There still is a possibility that he could be out there. 

I think, earlier, I said it was likely.  And I think it's possible, is what I should have said.  You know, obviously, with each day that we go down and the hours tick on, it becomes increasingly less likely that we're going to find him alive.  And it's painful to say that.  It's painful to report that to the parents, obviously.  It's a heartbreaking situation.  My searchers and myself have been here many times before.  And it's very difficult for us as well.

But, first and foremost, it's about the family and it's about Brennan, and, you know, we're doing everything we possibly can. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Sheriff, this is a tough question, but, you know, obviously, when a wife disappears, everybody obviously immediately looks to a husband.  When a child like this disappears, do you have to, just doing your job, due diligence, do you have to turn to those adult leaders and look at them a little more closely than you'd look at other people and wonder if maybe they had a part in any of this—this situation or the disappearance? 

EDMUNDS:  Yes, I think we do.  And we're doing that. 

You know, any of the adults that were around when he was missing, we need to question them.  We need to talk with them.  And that's part of doing my job as the sheriff and as a trained investigator.  We have to talk to those folks.  And we would be remiss if we didn't do that.  So, some tough questions are going to have to be asked, and, as the days progress, maybe even some tougher questions.  You know, some polygraph examinations possibly are going to be administered. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Thanks very much, Sheriff Dave Edmunds.  He's sheriff of Summit County, Utah, in the middle of a tough search.

Sheriff, our thoughts and prayers obviously go out to you and everybody that's looking right now for Brennan Hawkins.  Good luck. 

EDMUNDS:  Thank you very much. 


SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Let's bring back in Candice DeLong. 

Candice, you know, it's always tough.  I know a lot of people that follow these stories think it's very brutal that, when a wife disappears, you immediately turn to the husband and you ask the tough questions.  And, sometimes, it pays off, whether it's Laci Peterson, whether it's Lori Hacking.  Sometimes, when you have the runaway bride, the suspicions are misplaced. 

But, in this situation, obviously, this little boy may have wandered off.  But you've got to question everybody, don't you?  You've got to turn to those Scout leaders who are grieving, who are mourning, a lot of them, and ask if they had anything to do with this disappearance and probe them for inconsistencies, just like we're seeing done in Aruba right now with Joran's father.  Isn't that what you have to do?  You've got to question everybody. 

DELONG:  Absolutely, because if we go on the assumption that perhaps he was taken by someone for nefarious reasons, then we have to look at, who are the adults around him?  And I don't limit that to people over 21.  That can be a teenager, postpubescent teenager. 

Frequently, sometimes, they get involved in activities like this with younger children.  And so, of course, yes, they all have to be questioned, records checked, things like that, in addition to real—basically, I would want to be doing searches, knocking on doors of anybody that lived in the area.  If he was taken by someone else when the leaders' backs were turned or maybe if he was lured somewhere, it probably was not just somebody passing through, but somebody who is familiar with the area, that knew there was a Boy Scout camp there. 

When you think about it, if you were looking for a child to take, for whatever your reasons, a Boy Scout camp is a real good place to find a lot of them. 

SCARBOROUGH:  There's no doubt about that.  Candice DeLong, thank you so much.  As always, we appreciate you being here. 

And you know what?  Candice is exactly right.  Not only is a Boy Scout camp a very good place to look for boys.  It's also a place where, again, once you separate a child from the rest of the pack, it's not like it's in a shopping center, where there are a lot of people out there or where there are security cameras.  You obviously could snatch a young boy or a young girl, if it were Girl Scouts, take them away and get away before law enforcement officers were even called. 

I'll tell you what.  It's a tragic case.  Hopefully, there will be a happy ending to it.  We're going to keep following it in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY and keep you up to date. 

Now, coming up next, a would-be thief picks the wrong store to rob.  Next, we did catch this on tape, and you're going to see how an owner of the store fought back.  But did he do the right thing? 

And, also, a paparazzi prank on Tom Cruise, but he's not laughing.  You're going to see what happened and what happened to the prankster who squirted liquid in Mr. Cruise's face. 

That's when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 



SCARBOROUGH:  A man walks into a jewelry store in Florida claiming to be in the market for a diamond ring.  He ends up being in the market for trouble.  He pulls out a gun. 

But the tables are turned on him.  And it's all caught on tape.  The owner of this jewelry store, Eddie DePaula, and his nephew wrestled the robber to the ground and held him at gunpoint until the cops arrived. 

With me by phone from Florida, the owner of that jewelry store, Eddie DePaula. 

Eddie, thank you so much for being with us. 

You know, most people that have a gun pointed at their face, well, they stick their hands up in the air.  You didn't do that.  Why? 



DEPAULA:  Well, it was just a quick reaction.  It was just gut instinct to do it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And what were you thinking?  I mean, the guy sticks his gun in The face.  You say it's a reaction.  Once you started wrestling him, what went through your mind?  Did your whole life flash before your eyes, as we hear people say when they're in these types of situations? 

DEPAULA:  Actually, we were talking about the ring and about jewelry, and, all of a sudden, he—a gun appears and it's aimed at my body.  And my first thought was, where did that come from and what are you doing?  And my reaction was just to—to fight. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And this guy is trying—we're looking at—this guy is actually trying to get the gun away from you to shoot you.  And then your cousin comes in, your nephew comes in, and starts fighting also. 

I mean, you guys are working with a loaded gun and you eventually have it in your hands.  You could have shot him, but you didn't.  Why? 

DEPAULA:  I don't believe I was in the situation to need to shoot him.  If it would have been more aggressive than it was and my life was in danger, I would have shot him. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Did a gunshot go off? 

DEPAULA:  Actually, two gunshots, one when we were struggling.  And I also gave him a warning shot when he was coming—leaping toward me at one time. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, tell me, when you get out of the struggle, when the cops finally came, you picked up the phone and called your wife.  What did you tell her? 

DEPAULA:  That was a very difficult phone call for my wife.  I was very nervous, very scared.  I was happy to be alive.  But I love my wife and my new little baby girl.  And the first thing I told her was, honey, I'm OK.  Something happened at the jewelry store today. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  Well, I'll tell you what.  I'll bet you're hugging the little girl a lot tighter tonight. 

Thank you for being with us, Eddie.  We greatly appreciate it.  We really do.

Let's bring in now De Lacy Davis.  He's an East Orange police officer. 

De Lacy, obviously, this is not the first thing law enforcement officers would recommend when a gun's pointed at your face.  So, just talk about the numbers.  Talk about the odds if you wrestle with a guy that's holding you at gunpoint.


One of the things that we teach at Black Cops Against Police Brutality is for the victim to surrender.  Obviously, Mr. DePaula didn't do that in this circumstance and it ended up pretty good and in his favor.  But, very frequently, it doesn't end this way.  You know, we've had instances in East Orange and other parts of the country where jewelers have been killed by robbers or would-be robbers. 

It just usually doesn't turn out this way.  I mean, I notice that he had the gun locked under his arm and then someone came out from the back room.  If he didn't have someone to assist him, there may have been a very different ending.  I mean, we're very happy that he's OK.  But we tell the citizens, give them the jewelry.  Give them what they want, because nothing is more important than your life.  You can always replace them.

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, is there a difference, De Lacy, between what might happen in a store and what might happen in your home? 

Let's say somebody breaks into your home at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning and they pull out a gun on you.  Do you attack them then or is it the same rule, give them what they want and hope they don't shoot you and your family? 

DAVIS:  I think we got two schools of thought. 

One school of thought says, you have a right to defend your life.  And, certainly, you can defend your life.  However, the question is, what is the risk and do the risks outweigh the benefit?  Even—in the many of the states.  And I know New Jersey says that you have to allow the actor to retreat, which is a horrible law, but that's the reality. 

As a police officer, we can advance.  We can meet forth and raise it, but the citizen must allow the actor to retreat.  And, under those circumstances, you don't want to be in a position where you may get shot having to allow someone to retreat. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes, but what about the situation, though, De Lacy—again, is there any difference?  Though, again, if you're just looking at the percentages, if you're looking at the numbers, is somebody more likely to shoot you in your home if they break into your home and you confront them than, let's say, in a storefront, or are the numbers still the same in both places? 

DAVIS:  I think the numbers are similar. 

The numbers that we've looked at are similar, in that, you know, usually, when a person is robbing you, especially at gunpoint, they're desperate.  So, you've already got a desperate person who wants to take what you have.  And so, there's a high chance that they're going to use a weapon, especially if we're talking about a loaded gun. 

I mean, every time I've seen that scenario, we've seen the gun fired.  Even, in this instance, the gun was fired twice.  It just didn't—it happened to not hit Mr. DePaula, but it could have hit him and the person in the backroom.  So, he was fortunate.


DAVIS:  And he was lucky in this instance.  But you're looking at possibly getting killed. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I'll tell you what, De Lacy.  He was lucky. 

Thank you for being with us, De Lacy Davis.  As always, we appreciate it. 

He was lucky.  He was also very smart, though.  You saw him lock that arm underneath, so the guy couldn't fire off a round into his stomach or his head. 

Coming up next, another chapter into the Tom Cruise craziness.  That's when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Tomorrow night, we're going to be talking about the runaway bride and her big interview with Katie Couric.  What do you think?  You can e-mail us at Joe@MSNBC.com.

And, also, you want the water?  You can't handle the water!  The Tom Cruise controversy coming up next.


SCARBOROUGH:  Well, it ends up that Maverick can be gunned down by water. 

Over the weekend at the London premiere of Tom Cruise's new movie, “War of the Worlds,” the newly engaged Mr. Cruise was working the rope lines when he came to a reporter who was more of a prankster.  And rather than asking a question, he squirted water in Tom's face. 

Listen to Tom's reaction. 


TOM CRUISE, ACTOR:  You're a jerk.  You're a jerk.  You know what? 

You're a jerk. 



SCARBOROUGH:  You're a jerk. 

It turns out, it was a prank for a British TV show, but Tom didn't think it was funny.  He doesn't like water getting squirted in his face.  The four guys were arrested, and they've since been released, of course, probably after they agreed to put Scientology chips in their brains. 

The good news is that Katie Holmes was unharmed by the waterworks. 

Seems that they were only aiming the liquid at Tom's face. 

That's all the time we have for tonight.  But we've got a big week in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  We've got Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Karl Rove, Robert Redford, and Billy Graham.  You don't want to miss a SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY this week.

And make sure to watch Imus tomorrow morning.  His guests include our friend Pat Buchanan.

Good night.



Content and programming copyright 2005 MSNBC.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc. ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user's personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon MSNBC and Voxant, Inc.'s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.


Discussion comments