updated 6/30/2005 9:17:56 AM ET 2005-06-30T13:17:56

Guest: Dana Kennedy, Drew Pinsky, Charles Johnson, Rick Warren, Billy Graham

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  A historic night in New York City, as tens of thousands gather in Queens to pray, to sing and to listen to the Protestants‘ pope deliver his message of Jesus Christ, the Reverend Billy Graham. 

Tonight, on a special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, “Faith in America.”  We‘re here at the final crusade of the Reverend Billy Graham. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REVEREND BILLY GRAHAM, EVANGELIST:  We came to New York because we were invited by some clergy, especially after 9/11.  And here we are. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  Tonight, one-on-one with Billy Graham just minutes before he took the stage for the beginning of his final crusade. 

And, throughout the hour, we‘re going to bring you the sights and the sounds of this spiritual event, the likes of which New York City and the world may never see again. 

Plus:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “THE TODAY SHOW”) 

TOM CRUISE, ACTOR:  Scientology is something that—you don‘t understand.  It‘s like, you could be a Christian and be a Scientologist. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  Tom Cruise and Scientology.  The controversial Hollywood star blasts psychology, prescription drugs and “The Today Show”‘s Matt Lauer.  A fiery discussion about a very different kind of religion and its impact on Hollywood and American culture.  And we‘ll be asking whether Tom Cruise is ruining his career.  

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

From the Reverend Billy Graham‘s Greater New York Crusade in Queens, New York, here‘s Joe Scarborough. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Welcome to this very special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, “Faith in America.”

We‘re here live in Forest Hills, New York, where the reverend Billy Graham has just begun his final crusade. 

Let‘s go to that scene right now.  The reverend came on about 10 minutes ago.  He was preceded, though, with this crowd, tens of thousands of people from around the world, all singing together “Amazing Grace.”  And then George Beverly Shea, a mainstay of these crusades for over 40 years, led everybody in verses of their favorite songs. 

But Billy Graham has not only been preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to these people.  He‘s also been talking—talking to them, talking to the people of New York about how this city is special, even joking about the New York Yankees and the New York Mets, saying now, more than ever, they need our prayers. 

Let‘s listen to the Reverend Graham. 

GRAHAM:  ... to Miami.  It crashed in the ocean.

He survived the crash, but had blood on his forehead, which attracted the sharks.  And he spent 10 hours kicking at the sharks.  And he survived.  After he had been in the water more than 10 hours, he saw an aircraft and waved his orange vest.  The pilot spotted him and dropped a slow canister and radioed a Coast Guard cutter that was 12 minutes away. 

He said hurry.  There‘s a guy down there surrounded by sharks.  So, the Coast Guard went there and found him and got him.  You know, he didn‘t need a new technique.

SCARBOROUGH:  Reverend Graham‘s first crusade more than 50 years ago lasted for over two months.  Known as America‘s pastor, he‘s been the unofficial minister to every president since Dwight Eisenhower in 1952, comforting the nation also in the wake of the September 11 attacks. 

You know, the Reverend Graham‘s preached to more people in live audiences than anybody else in history, 210 million people in more than 185 countries.  Today, they‘ve come from all across the world, by plane, by bus, by camper, by car, and, yes, by subway to see the Reverend Billy Graham preach one more time.  And now he‘s come back to New York.  And New Yorkers are welcoming him with open arms. 

I had the honor to sit down with the Reverend Graham just minutes ago. 

And I asked him, why New York?  Why now? 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRAHAM:  I think we came to New York because we were invited by some clergy, especially after 9/11.  My son, Franklin, was up here for a long time helping and setting up an organization to answer questions, to give coffee and doughnuts and help in every way he could. 

And he talked to ministers.  And every one of them said, it‘s time for your father to come back to New York.  And they organized.  And here we are. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, New York obviously holds a place dear to your heart. 

GRAHAM:  That‘s right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  People are still talking about when you were in Madison Square Garden in the 1950s.  And I don‘t think America had ever seen anything like the crusade back in the ‘50s. 

Talk about New York.  People think it‘s the most secular city in America, and yet...

GRAHAM:  No, it‘s a religious city. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You think it‘s a religious city. 

GRAHAM:  There are many religions here. 

New York is also a city of neighborhoods.  Everybody here belongs to their own neighborhood.  And so, you don‘t have the differences as united as they normally would in a smaller city.  And I found out years ago that you have to speak to New Yorkers within their own setting of where they were, and their ethnic background, their language background, their cultural background. 

And the Gospel speaks to all of them.  And I‘ve been to most of the countries that are here.  And I‘ve known a little bit about them and where they came from.  And I know that, when the Gospel is proclaimed, that people will respond.  And they do, always. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You talk about speaking to New Yorkers. 

I remember back—I guess it was the ‘80s.  You kept talking about going to the Soviet Union.  And, as I mentioned to you before, you‘re like the pope to people like me, to my family—I mean, you—except a pope that‘s reigned for 50 years.

GRAHAM:  Oh.

SCARBOROUGH:  But, at that point, I was saying, why is he going to the Soviet Union?  Why is he talking to our enemies?  But unlike so many other pastors and so many other preachers we see on TV, you really started divorcing yourself from politics a long time ago.  Why? 

GRAHAM:  Well, I was invited to the Soviet Union to address a peace conference, which everybody—almost everybody was against.  The newspapers were against it, editorials. 

And I remember, the Sunday before I went, Vice President Bush invited me to their home for a lunch, because we‘d been close friends for many years.  And he said during the lunch, he said, you know, I don‘t think the Reagans are busy today.  I‘ll just call them and see if they‘ll come over and have lunch.  And they did. 

And Brent Sulzberger of “The New York Times,” also, and his family came.  And we had a marvelous time.  And Ronald Reagan, the president, took me aside.  And he said, Billy, he said, I know you‘re going to go this week to the Soviet Union.  He said, I want you to know we‘ll be praying for you every mile of the way.  And that gave me great encouragement. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Let me ask you about politics and preachers, because we‘ve seen over the past 20, 30 years a lot of preachers focusing as much on the politics of this Earth as focusing on the cross, delivering the message of Jesus Christ, not only to believers, but to nonbelievers. 

Do you think all this focus on electoral politics has maybe taken some of their eyes off of the cross, off the ministry of Jesus Christ? 

GRAHAM:  I don‘t want to say that I disagree with them, because I don‘t in a way.  But that‘s not my calling. 

My calling is the Gospel, the fact that Christ did die for us, and that he rose again.  And we need to repent of our sins and receive him by faith.  That‘s the message God has called me to deliver. 

And I think that these other ministers are going down different paths and the direction I took for years in my earlier ministry.  And I became friends of people who thought that was a good thing. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes. 

You know, when I was growing up, my grandmother, any time I had a question, she‘d go, read this column by Billy Graham, or, read this book by Billy Graham. 

GRAHAM:  Oh, my.

SCARBOROUGH:  And we always said, my grandmom had a direct line to God.  I think you may have actually helped her out with that. 

What do you say to devoted Christians, post-9/11, that want to serve in the Marines or the Army, and understand that this war on terror may require them to go overseas and kill people?  I—even though I support this war, and I guess a lot of evangelicals, really, support this war, there‘s still that conflict.  How do we ever sort through that and...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  ... the words of Jesus Christ...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  What‘s that?

GRAHAM:  I said, in this short time, I couldn‘t answer all that. 

That‘s a longer story. 

(LAUGHTER)

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes. 

GRAHAM:  But I believe that there‘s a difference.  If you look up the Greek words about murder and killing, it is totally different. 

In the Ten Commandments, it says, thou shalt not murder, not kill. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Right. 

GRAHAM:  But there are times we have to defend ourselves.  I think the scriptures are very clear that we are to defend ourselves if we‘re attacked.

On 9/11, we were attacked.  And I think that we have responded to that attack.  And I‘m praying we can find a way out of the situation now. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And it‘s a difficult, difficult situation. 

I was reading today, before I knew I was going to be talking to you, that the Gallup poll every year asks Americans, who are the top 10 most important or most admired people?  Forty-seven out of 50 years, Billy Graham has been on the list. 

GRAHAM:  Oh, my.  I think somebody made a mistake.

(LAUGHTER)

SCARBOROUGH:  Is that not remarkable?  No, I don‘t think anybody made a mistake. 

What accounts for that?  And, obviously, I know you‘re a very humble man.  You say that people have misjudged you, that you‘re a sinner; you‘re a human.  But why do you think that is? 

GRAHAM:  I don‘t know.  I‘ll ask the lord some day. 

I told Mr. Gallup one day when I met him, his son, I said, I‘m sure that there‘s some mistakes made in the way you‘re taking that poll. 

SCARBOROUGH:  But it is.  It is a remarkable thing.  What—I—I think about Paul talking about running the race, and, at the end saying, race, well done. 

GRAHAM:  Right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, this may be your last crusade.  You‘re about to go through the finish line.  Assess your ministry. 

GRAHAM:  I‘m ready to go.  I hope the lord calls me soon.

But I want to stay and be with my wife.  And I love her very much.  She‘s an invalid, cannot be here for these meetings.  And I miss her very much.  And I want to be at her side as long as she lives. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Last question.  And it relates to that. 

I know a lot of men and women of faith that I grew up with in the church, loving them, respecting them, being taught by them, that, as they get near the end of their lives and as they start to break down physically and emotionally, and they feel the weight of the years on them, it‘s almost like that scene, Christ‘s last words on the cross, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?  What do you say to those people out there that say, this is no way to end my life, to be separated from my wife, to be separated from my loved ones, to be in constant pain?  What do you say to them? 

GRAHAM:  You know, I don‘t have answers to all those questions.

But I do know that, when Jesus said, “My God, why have you forsaken me?” at that moment, God had laid on him the sins of the world.  And God cannot look upon sin.  So, he turned away for a short time. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Right. 

GRAHAM:  And during that period of time, Jesus actually went to hell for us and took the suffering that we deserve on that cross.  And that‘s why the cross is so important. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right. 

Reverend Graham, I can‘t tell you what a great honor it‘s been being with you. 

GRAHAM:  Well, thank you, Joe.  And it‘s a privilege to be with you. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCARBOROUGH:  I‘ll tell you what.  You‘re looking at a scene, a remarkable scene, to the sound of “Just as I Am,” tens of thousands of people going up, dedicating their life to Jesus Christ.  I‘m looking out at the crowds right now, see people from Korea, crowds from Japan, from all continents, listening one more time to the words of Billy Graham and deciding to commit their lives to Jesus Christ. 

It‘s a remarkable story and a remarkable man and a remarkable final crusade.

Now, there is going to be a lot more to come on this special edition of Joe Scarborough.  Straight ahead, a look at the legacy of Billy Graham, how he was able to spread the Gospel to millions. 

And late:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “THE TODAY SHOW”) 

CRUISE:  Here we are today where I talk out against drugs and psychiatric abuses of electric shocking people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  A man with a different kind of crusade.  We‘re going to take a look at the stunning Tom Cruise “Today Show” interview regarding Scientology. 

That, Rick Warren and much more when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  No matter where you‘ve been, no matter what your life has been, the lord loves you and the lord will take care of you.  And his promises are true. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  We‘ve got a lot more to come on this special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, live from Queens, New York, following the Reverend Billy Graham‘s final crusade.

Stay with us.  We‘ll be with it the entire hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRAHAM:  Jesus made this astounding claim.  Jesus said, I am the truth.  Jesus said, I am the truth.  I am the embodiment of all truth.

And, if you are going to get to heaven, you‘ve got to believe that. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  That‘s Billy Graham doing what Billy Graham does best, preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  He calls himself a simple man of God.  Others call him a spiritual giant.  This is his 417th crusade. 

And, as Brian Williams reports, coming back to New York City is a homecoming of sorts. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC ANCHOR (voice-over):  He arrives in New York at the age of 86, returning to the city where he burst on the public stage back in 1957. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  This is a crusade for the soul of the world‘s greatest city. 

WILLIAMS:  Lois Akhearst (ph) was there back in ‘57.  And she came back today for this last crusade. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Hearing Dr. Graham speak the truth from God‘s word, it spoke to my heart, and I responded. 

GRAHAM:  I am asking to you come tonight and give your life to Christ, whether you understand it all or not. 

WILLIAMS:  For 16 weeks, the young North Carolina preacher filled Madison Square Garden, just as he will fill this great lawn tonight and just as others begin to sum up his public life. 

JON MEACHAM, MANAGING EDITOR, “NEWSWEEK”:  There were four great lions at the end of the 20th century, without whom our history would be different and worse, Ronald Reagan, John Paul II, Nelson Mandela and Billy Graham. 

WILLIAMS:  And there is something about Billy Graham that U.S.  presidents have found soothing, comforting and reassuring.  Graham has counseled every one since Truman.  But Billy Graham‘s instinct has sometimes failed him.  His critics mostly cite relations with the Jewish community and civil rights, saying he didn‘t do enough, while admitting he wasn‘t alone.

GRAHAM:  I (INAUDIBLE) to this audience.

MEACHAM:  White Southerners of goodwill did lots of things that they are deeply humiliated by and embarrassed about, even unto this hour. 

WILLIAMS:  But Billy Graham also changed the way millions of Americans view God and talk to God, because they saw him do it so well. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCARBOROUGH:  He did do it so well.  He continues to do it so well. 

And I‘ll tell you what.  It‘s a remarkable ministry. 

With me now to talk about it, Rick Warren.  He‘s a pastor of the Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California.  And he‘s, of course, the author of “The Purpose Driven Life,” one of the best-selling books of all time.  We also have with us Charles Johnson.  He‘s the pastor of Trinity Baptist Church in San Antonio, where Reverend Graham held crusades in ‘57 and again in 1994. 

Gentlemen, thanks for being with us.

RICK WARREN, AUTHOR, “THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE”:  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Rick, set this remarkable scene.  Here they are, just singing songs...

WARREN:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  ... that William Baptist churches and evangelical churches have heard our entire life.  But instead of two or three going up at the end of the service, you have got thousands of people flooding up.  Set the scene for us.

WARREN:  Well, you know, Joe, I think Billy‘s never changed his focus in 60 years.  He‘s just always focused on the good news.

And the good news is not religion.  It‘s about a relationship.  And I‘ve heard Billy say this.  I couldn‘t count the number of times.  He said, you may be Catholic or Protestant or Jewish or Baptist or Buddhist or Mormon or Muslim or nothing.  What you need is not a religion.  You need a relationship. 

And the people who have gone forward tonight and in thousands of other Billy Graham meetings really are looking for change.  Everybody, when it comes down to the bottom line, is, they said, I want my life changed.  I want it changed for the better.  And what we‘re hungry for is God. 

We look for other things, but that‘s not it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And you‘re also hungry, though, for a message that is uncompromising. 

I was shocked at how successful your book was.  But, basically, the message in your book...

WARREN:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  ... and his message is the same thing.  You open your book up, you say, why has this sold 21 million copies?

(LAUGHTER)

SCARBOROUGH:  First line...

WARREN:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s not about you. 

WARREN:  It‘s not about you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And in this country and this world, we‘ve had the me generation of the ‘70s and the greed of the ‘80s and the sins of the ‘90s.

WARREN:  Right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s what people want to hear, isn‘t it? 

WARREN:  You know what?  Billy has said tonight, and what he‘s always said, and what—as I said in my book, there‘s absolutely nothing new in it that hasn‘t been said for 2,000 years in historic Christianity.

And the bottom line is this.  You are not an accident.  You were made by God and for God.  And until you understand that, life isn‘t going to make sense.  And it‘s a pretty simple message.  What God has given to Billy and to others is that, when you give an authoritative message in a humble personality, it‘s almost irresistible.

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.    

(CROSSTALK)

WARREN:  Because people say, that guy‘s got integrity.  And I like that guy. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And he‘s still saying, after all these years, after everybody tries to lift him on a pedestal...

WARREN:  That‘s right. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Forty-seven out of 50 years, he‘s been chosen in the Gallup Poll as one of the 10 most admired Americans.

WARREN:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  He still says, I‘m a bad man. 

WARREN:  It‘s not an accident.

SCARBOROUGH:  I‘m not a guy that—it‘s not.

WARREN:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Charles Johnson, let me bring you in. 

Obviously, San Antonio touched by what Billy Graham did there in the ‘50s and also in the 1990s.  Talk about the impact those crusades had, not only on San Antonio, but on people like you, that were moved to the ministry because of Billy Graham. 

CHARLES JOHNSON, PASTOR, TRINITY BAPTIST CHURCH:  Sure, Joe. 

I live in a heavily Roman Catholic town, but what Rick just said is so true.  Dr. Graham‘s message reaches out to people across denominational lines, across ethnic lines, every conceivable human barrier.  It‘s not about a religion.  It‘s about a relationship.  This preacher had...

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you—and, you know, Charles, also political—also political lines.  Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, we can report here tonight...

JOHNSON:  Absolutely.

SCARBOROUGH:  ... coming here tomorrow night.  It‘s not about being a Republican or a Democrat. 

JOHNSON:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And a lot of preachers forget that these days, don‘t they? 

JOHNSON:  Well, well, in your interview with Dr. Graham, I‘m glad you brought that up, Joe, because he‘s a model for us all.  He knows that the power is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  It‘s not in any political party.  It‘s not in any political message or platform. 

He knows that the message that he has is the timeless message of how one can give one‘s heart to God.  I‘m so proud of Dr. Graham for really holding that line with integrity.  Can you imagine the pressure he‘s been under to align with some political party or some political cause?  But, no, he is steadfast and true.  He knows what God placed him on the planet to do.  He knows what his purpose is, Rick.  And he has done that purpose. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And, Rick, what kind of—what kind of comfort has it been to know that, if you‘re Jimmy Carter...

WARREN:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  ... who Billy Graham says he just loves, or if you‘re Bill Clinton, or if you‘re Richard Nixon, or if you‘re Ronald Reagan, he‘s always there for you.  George W. Bush.

WARREN:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Billy Graham helped turn him away from alcohol and towards God. 

WARREN:  That‘s exactly right.

Well, you know, politics is a temporal issue.  What we‘re talking about here has changed lives.  And in the bottom line, you can‘t change a government through laws.  You can‘t change people through laws.  You can only change them internally.  Laws just represent what people have done in their heart first.  And Billy Graham is all about heart.  He‘s all about the fact that—that, no matter what I‘ve done, I can turn around. 

No matter what direction I‘ve been, my feet can be headed in the right direction if I turn to Christ. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, thank so much.  I greatly appreciate it, Rick. 

JOHNSON:  Joe, Joe...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Wrap it up for us, Charles. 

JOHNSON:  I was just going to say, Joe...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Get—get deep in 15 seconds. 

JOHNSON:  I‘ll do it, man.

Dr. Graham has the gift of wisdom.  He is able to take that which is profound and complex and make it very simple.  He once said, my goal is to communicate on an eighth grade level.  And he is able to take the profoundest truths of the universe and put that simply for all of us.  He touches our hearts. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It is amazing.  It is.

Thank you so much, Charles Johnson.  Thank you, Rick Warren.  We greatly appreciate you being here. 

WARREN:  Thank you, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  An amazing night here.  We‘re going to continue it. 

And also, coming up next, an interview a lot of people are talking about, Tom Cruise on “The Today Show” talking about religion, psychiatry, and Scientology. 

Stay with us.  We‘re going to be talking about that and much more when this special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, “Faith in America,” continues. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KURT WARNER, NFL PLAYER:  Anybody can stand on the top of a podium, win a Super Bowl and thank the lord for those times, because it‘s easy to do.  But people want to understand what this faith is all about, how important it is, how it drives you, where your character comes from.  And I think it‘s in the difficult times where they really get a chance to see that. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  We‘re live from New York City, following Reverend Billy Graham‘s final crusade.  Plus, fireworks on “The Today Show” this morning, as Tom Cruise preaches the gospel of Scientology.

But, first, here‘s the latest news your family needs to know.

(NEWS BREAK)

ANNOUNCER:  From Flushing Meadows‘ Corona Park in Queens, New York, once again, Joe Scarborough. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Once again, you‘re looking at a live shot of the first night of Billy Graham‘s final crusade.  We are here in Corona Park in Queens, New York.  It‘s a remarkable scene.  We have seen thousands of people going up to the front, responding to the message of Billy Graham, responding to this historical moment and giving their lives to Jesus Christ. 

Welcome back to this special edition of “Faith in America.”

Now, we‘ve talked a lot about Reverend Graham‘s message, but now we turn to a very different kind of crusade.  Actor Tom Cruise, he gave an incredible interview this morning to Matt Lauer on “The Today Show.”  It‘s turning a lot of heads.  And the focus, his religion, Scientology. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “THE TODAY SHOW”) 

CRUISE:  Because, you know, but what it is, it‘s that thing where you just—in life, when it just happens, Matt.  You know, it‘s just you meet someone, and it‘s like—I can‘t even describe it. 

MATT LAUER, CO-HOST, “THE TODAY SHOW”:  Katie has mentioned that she is embracing or at least exposing herself and opening herself up to Scientology.  At this stage in your life, could you be with someone who doesn‘t have an interest? 

CRUISE:  Scientology is something that—you don‘t understand.  It‘s like, you could be a Christian and be a Scientologist.  OK?  Scientology is something...

LAUER:  So it doesn‘t replace religion?

CRUISE:  And it is a religion, because it‘s dealing with the spirit, you know, you as a spiritual being.  And it‘s something that, there‘s tools that you have that can actually—that you apply to your life. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  But then things took a sharp turn and Cruise went into combat mode with NBC‘s Matt Lauer.  And that‘s when things turned explosive.  Take a look. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “THE TODAY SHOW”) 

CRUISE:  I have never agreed with psychiatry, ever.  Before I was a Scientologist, I never agreed with psychiatry.  And then, when I started studying the history of psychiatry, I started realizing more and more why I don‘t agree with psychiatry. 

And, as far as the Brooke Shields thing, is, look, you‘ve got to understand, I really care about Brooke Shields.  I think here is a wonderful and talented woman.  And I want to see her do well.  And I know that psychiatry is a pseudo-science. 

LAUER:  But, Tom, if she said that this particular thing helped her feel better, whether it was the antidepressant or going to a counselor or a psychiatrist, isn‘t that enough? 

CRUISE:  Matt, you have to understand this.

Here we are today where I talk out against drugs and psychiatric abuses of electric shocking people, OK, against their will, of drugging children, with them not knowing the effects of these drugs.  Do you know what Adderall is?  Do you know Ritalin?  Do you know now that Ritalin is a street drug?  Do you understand that? 

LAUER:  The difference is, this was not against her will, though. 

(CROSSTALK)

CRUISE:  No.  Matt, I‘m asking—Matt, I‘m asking—Matt, I‘m asking you a question.  Matt, I‘m asking you a question.

(CROSSTALK)

LAUER:  I understand there is abuse of all of these things. 

CRUISE:  No, you see, here‘s the problem.  You don‘t know the history of psychiatry.  I do. 

LAUER:  Aren‘t there examples?  And might not Brooke Shields be an example of someone who benefited from one of those drugs? 

CRUISE:  All it does is mask the problem, Matt.  And if you understand the history of it, it masks the problem.  That‘s what it does.  That‘s all it does.  You‘re not getting to the reason why.  There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance in a body. 

LAUER:  So postpartum depression to you is kind of a...

CRUISE:  Matt, don‘t...

LAUER:  ... little psychological gobbledygook? 

CRUISE:  No.  No, I did not say that.

LAUER:  I‘m just asking what you—what you would call it?

CRUISE:  Matt, that is—post—now you‘re talking about two different things. 

LAUER:  But that‘s what she went on the antidepressant for. 

CRUISE:  But what happens, the antidepressant, all it does is mask the problem.  There‘s ways of vitamins and through exercise and various things. 

I‘m not saying that that isn‘t real.  That‘s not what I‘m saying.  That‘s an alteration of what—what I‘m saying.  I‘m saying that drugs aren‘t the answer, that these drugs are very dangerous.  They‘re mind-altering, anti-psychotic drugs.  And there are ways of doing it without that, so that we don‘t end up in a brave new world. 

The thing that I‘m saying about Brooke is that there is misinformation, OK?  And she doesn‘t understand the history of psychiatry.  She doesn‘t understand, in the same way that you don‘t understand it, Matt. 

LAUER:  But a little bit what you‘re saying, Tom, is, you say, you want people to do well, but you want them to do well by taking the road that you approve of, as opposed to a road that may work for them. 

CRUISE:  No.  No, I‘m not. 

LAUER:  Well, if antidepressants work for Brooke shields, why isn‘t that OK? 

CRUISE:  I disagree with it.  And I think that there is a higher and

better quality of life.  And I think that promoting—for me, personally -

·         see, you‘re saying, what, I can‘t discuss what I want to discuss? 

LAUER:  No.  You absolutely can. 

CRUISE:  I know.  But, Matt, you‘re going in and saying that I can‘t discuss that. 

LAUER:  I‘m only asking, isn‘t there a possibility that—do you examine the possibility that these things do work for some people, that, yes, there are abuses and, yes, maybe they‘ve gone too far in certain areas?  Maybe there are too many kids on Ritalin.  Maybe electric shock is...

CRUISE:  Too many kids on Ritalin?  That...

LAUER:  I‘m just saying, but aren‘t there examples where it works? 

CRUISE:  Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt, you‘re glib. You don‘t even know what Ritalin is.

If you start talking about chemical imbalance, you have to evaluate and read the research papers on how they came up with these theories, Matt, OK?  That‘s what I‘ve done.  And you go and you say, where is the medical test?  Where is the blood test that says how much Ritalin you‘re supposed to get? 

LAUER:  It‘s very impressive to listen to you, because, clearly, you‘ve done the homework and you know the subject. 

CRUISE:  And you should.  And you should do that, also, because just knowing people who are Ritalin isn‘t enough.  You should be a little bit more responsible in knowing really...

LAUER:  I‘m not prescribing Ritalin, Tom.  And I‘m not asking anyone else to do it.  I‘m simply saying I know some people who seemed to have been helped by it. 

(CROSSTALK)

CRUISE:  But you‘re saying—but—this is a very important issue. 

This is a very...

LAUER:  I couldn‘t agree more. 

CRUISE:  And you know what?  You‘re—you‘re here on “The Today Show.” 

LAUER:  Right. 

CRUISE:  And to talk about it in a way of saying, well, isn‘t it OK and being reasonable about it, when you don‘t know and I do, I think that you should be a little bit more responsible in knowing what it is, because you communicate to people. 

LAUER:  But you‘re now telling me that your experiences with the people I know, which are zero, are more important than my experiences. 

CRUISE:  What do you mean by that? 

LAUER:  You‘re telling me what‘s worked for people I know or hasn‘t worked for people I know.  And I‘m telling you, I‘ve lived with these people.  And they‘re better. 

CRUISE:  So you‘re—you‘re advocating it? 

LAUER:  I am not.  I am telling you, in their cases...

(CROSSTALK)

LAUER:  ... in their individual case, it worked. 

CRUISE:  Matt...

LAUER:  I am not going to go out and say, get your kids on Ritalin. 

It‘s the cure-all and the end-all. 

CRUISE:  Matt, Matt, Matt, but here‘s the point.  What is an ideal scene in life, OK?  Ideal scene is someone not having to take anti-psychotic drugs. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  That‘s remarkable.  It‘s just remarkable stuff. 

With me now, MSNBC entertainment editor Dana Kennedy and also Dr. Drew Pinsky.  He is an addictionologist and a professor of psychiatry.  At USC. 

Let me begin with you, Dana, and just ask you the $64,000 question. 

What‘s going on with Tom Cruise? 

DANA KENNEDY, NBC ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR:  I wish I knew. 

Just—I watched that this morning.  And just to hear it again, I‘m still cringing.  It‘s really—it‘s both good television.  It‘s also so uncomfortable.  And you just have to wonder, why isn‘t someone around Tom Cruise, if not Tom Cruise himself, wising up to what a debacle this is?  He‘s getting publicity, yes.  He does have a new movie coming out. 

But Tom Cruise has never been thought of as a demented dork before, and that‘s really what‘s coming off here. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And the thing is, I mean, you have got Katie Holmes and that entire episode that makes him the joke of Hollywood, the joke of the late-night TV shows. 

And then, this morning, he‘s attacking Matt Lauer.  I mean, I don‘t know if you‘d call him America‘s brother or America‘s favorite son, but everybody likes Matt.  Why is he going after him? 

KENNEDY:  This—again, I wish I had the answers.  It looks as if he‘s doing everything he can to really ruin his image in one fell swoop. 

Again, I have to point out, we are talking about him.  And, in some ways, he‘s filling the void left over from the Michael Jackson trial.  I have to almost wonder if Courtney Love is giving him lessons on how to be a train wreck.  But long term, this is just going to hurt him, because he was never considered a joke before. 

In Hollywood, he was really the world‘s biggest movie star.  He still may be.  But he‘s making a fool of himself.  And I think this is what happens when you have your sister as your publicist. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  I‘ll tell you what.  He certainly is hurting his career.

Dr. Drew, let‘s turn to a part of the interview that obviously Tom Cruise and Matt Lauer had a showdown on that you can help us on, Ritalin.

DR. DREW PINSKY, AUTHOR, “CRACKED”:  OK.  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Giving drugs to children.  Tell me, do you think that our children are being drugged too much by parents? 

PINSKY:  Well, no.

SCARBOROUGH:  By instructors? 

PINSKY:  No, I really don‘t think they are.  There‘s some evidence that there may be overuse of stimulants in certain urban environments, but there‘s also evidence that they‘re being underused in rural in suburb environments. 

So, there really is no—in fact, I was somebody that thought Ritalin might be a mistake.  I treat amphetamine addicts all day long.  And so, I went deeply into the literature to see if perhaps we were impacting on this epidemic of amphetamine and addiction that we have.  And the fact is, the scientific literature is exquisitely clear that kids that are treated appropriately, when they are carefully selected and treated appropriately, they have less addiction, less personality disorders, less problems in life generally. 

They are, as Matt said, better.  I have grave concerns about nonbiologists, nonclinical people making sweeping generalities about biological systems.  Is the brain the only organ system in the body that does not have pathophysiology?  No, it does.  And it deserves treatment.

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, I‘ll tell you what.  It sounds like junk science to me, what Tom Cruise is teaching America.

We‘re going to be back.  And I‘m going to be asking our panel to stay with us, because we have got more of Tom Cruise‘s interview coming up next, as we continue our special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, “Faith in America.”  And we‘re going to be back with more Billy Graham also. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRAHAM:  We‘ve always needed God from the very beginning of this nation.  But, today, we need him especially.  We‘re facing a new kind of enemy.  We‘re involved in a new kind of warfare.  And we need the help of the spirit of God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Tom and Katie showing the world once again just how much they love each other last night at the New York City premiere of “War of the Worlds.”

Welcome back to our special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, coming live from Billy Graham‘s final crusade, somewhere near La Guardia Airport. 

Now, we‘re continuing our discussion about Tom Cruise and his crusade for Scientology and his form also of science and medicine. 

Here‘s more of his interview with Matt Lauer this morning on “The Today Show.” 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “THE TODAY SHOW”) 

LAUER:  Let me take this more general, because I think you and I could go around in circles on this for a while.  And I respect your opinion on it.  Do you want more people to understand Scientology?  Is that—would that be a goal of yours? 

CRUISE:  You know what?  I—absolutely.  Of course. 

(CROSSTALK)

LAUER:  How do you go about it?

CRUISE:  You just communicate about it. 

And the important is, like, you and I talk about it, whether it‘s—look, if I want to know something, I go and find out, because I don‘t talk about things that I don‘t understand.  I‘ll say, you know what?  I‘m not so sure about that.  I‘ll go find more information about it, so I can come to an opinion based on the information that I have. 

LAUER:  You‘re so passionate about it.  And I think...

CRUISE:  I‘m passionate about learning.  I‘m passionate about life, Matt. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  Let‘s bring back my panel, Dr. Drew Pinsky and Dana Kennedy. 

Dr. Drew, let me begin with you and just ask you, is this dangerous?  Are there people out there that are going to listen to Tom Cruise and make medical decisions based on what a Hollywood star says?

PINSKY:  It absolutely could be very dangerous for people. 

I have no doubt that there are people out there who are cringing at this, the fact that they are on verge of not taking medicine.  They‘re noncompliant.  They‘re perhaps reconsidering whether they should be following a physician‘s advice, who could be tremendously harmed by this.

People need to understand that depression has a 20 percent fatality rate.  One out of five people with major depression will kill themselves.  This is a serious medical condition in our country and needs to be addressed very, very seriously by people who are exquisitely trained in this. 

I‘m also concerned about Tom going out and finding information for himself.  Where is the role of the teacher?  There are people that have to teach the information or people to put it in a context and develop the appropriate wisdom to understand what they‘re reading, what they‘re learning about. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, for anybody that has family members or loved ones that are suffering depression, they know just how dangerous Tom Cruise‘s statements are. 

Dana, let‘s talk about danger to his career, danger to Steven Spielberg‘s career.  I mean, what is Hollywood saying behind closed doors about Tom‘s implosion and what it means for “War of the Worlds”? 

KENNEDY:  Back in April, when Tom unveiled Katie, they thought it was pretty much just a P.R. stunt. 

Now people really think he has taken hopefully temporary leave of his senses.  But there is a lot speculation about “War of the Worlds” and how good it actually is.  It cost upwards of possibly $175 million to make.  They‘re not letting critics see it until Monday, which is not necessarily a great sign.

And given the way Tom is acting, in a lot of ways, I know my fellow movie critics.  And they‘re not ready to love this movie, given the fact they haven‘t been able to see it and given how combative Tom has been, especially this morning with Matt.

SCARBOROUGH:  Unbelievable. 

Dana, we greatly appreciate you being with us.

Dr. Drew Pinsky, thank you so much for your insights.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  And I certainly hope our viewers listen to you, instead of listening to Tom Cruise.

Now, when we come back, we‘re going to have this week‘s SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY champion.  Now, he‘s a man who made this scene possible earlier this week.

And, as we continue this special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY live from the Reverend Billy Graham‘s final crusade, stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAT ROBERTSON, “THE 700 CLUB”:  The truth is, there‘s a great religious revival going on around the world, not only in the United States, but overseas particularly.  And there—people are turning to faith from every walk of life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  You‘re looking at the Billy Graham crusade live in New York City.  And when we come back, we‘re going to have our SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY champion and some final thoughts. 

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)    

SCARBOROUGH:  Now it‘s time for our SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY champion. 

This week, we celebrate the great news coming out of Utah, the miracle on the mountain that brought 11-year-old Brennan Hawkins alive well to his parents after four days and nights alone in the wilderness.  Tonight, our champion is a man who played hooky from work to search and find Brennan. 

Here‘s Forrest Nunley sharing his story with Matt Lauer. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “THE TODAY SHOW”) 

FORREST NUNLEY, FOUND BRENNAN HAWKINS:  I didn‘t know for sure when I was 30, 40 yards out, I didn‘t know whether he was with someone else, you know, whether it was him, or, you know, whether it was a mirage or playing tricks, you know?

It was one of those out-of-world experiences to find that boy standing there alive. 

LAUER:  You say, what‘s your name?  He says, I‘m Brennan?

NUNLEY:  Yes.  I‘m Brennan. 

And I just started freaking out.  I was scared.  I didn‘t know what to do.  I‘m running around in circles.  I got him—got on the ground and warm and clothed.  Gave him one of my shirts, the orange shirt, and some—a blanket and wrapped him up, got him water and a PBJ sandwich.  And he just sat there and ate.  It was a wonderful thing.  To see that kid reunited with his parents was unbelievable, truly a miracle. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  That‘s our show for tonight.  We leave you with a look back at the remarkable career of the Reverend Billy Graham, who, of course, again, I mean, he‘s—he‘s had another remarkable night here, his final crusade, thousands of people coming from across the world to hear the same message that this man has been delivering for 60 years. 

Of course, the crowds are filing out now, but still hundreds, if not thousands, up at the front receiving counseling, people that listened to Reverend Graham‘s message and believed. 

That‘s all the time we have.  Live from Flushing Meadows, thank you for being with us tonight in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRAHAM:  He went to school the first day.  And he had a rough time that first day. 

I hope you‘ll bring your friends, bring everyone.  And let‘s make this one of the great moments in New York of this century.  I believe God is doing it.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

Content and programming copyright 2005 MSNBC.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc. ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon MSNBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

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