updated 7/6/2005 11:21:10 AM ET 2005-07-06T15:21:10

Guest: Richard Walter, Govindini Murty, Ed Smart, Lansing Haynes, Dave Newman, Susan Filan, Paul Reynolds, Linda Allison

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  I am asking this in the name of my beautiful, intelligent and outstanding daughter, who I haven't seen for 36 days, and for whom I will continue to search until I find her. 


JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  A tearful plea from Natalee Holloway's mother begging for help, as time runs out.  Tonight top headline:  The brothers walk, as charges of a Caribbean cover-up reach fever pitch. 

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  No passport required, only common sense allowed. 

Tempers flare, as these brothers get their first day of freedom.  They lied and then they walked.  Plus, F-16s finally search the skies over Aruba.  But is it too little too late?  We are live in Aruba with the very latest. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  She did very well and is being very happy having her father there close by. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Shocking new surveillance video of Shasta and the man who allegedly took her from her home.  Plus, Joseph Duncan in court, charged with kidnapping Shasta and her still-missing brother, Dylan.  We're going to be asking the big question tonight:  Why was this violent sexual predator let free in the first place?  We are live in Idaho with new developments tonight. 

And, also, Tom Cruise getting the last laugh, as “War of the Worlds” is the top movie in America.  The big question is, why is Cruise still America's top gun? 

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, welcome to the show.  We've got a lot to talk about tonight.  And we're going to be starting in Aruba. 

First of all, today is the day that the judge released two of the three prime suspects.  Actually, did it yesterday, but today was the day that Natalee's mom came out.  She is angry and she is demanding action.  This morning, she made a really moving emotional plea. 


HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  It is now that I ask the world to help me.  Two suspects were released yesterday who were involved in a violent crime against my daughter. 

These criminals are not only allowed to walk freely among the tourists and citizens of Aruba, but there are no limits where they may choose to travel.  I am asking all mothers and fathers in all nations to hear my plea.  I implore you, do not allow these two suspects, the Kalpoe brothers, to enter your country until this case is involved. 

Do not allow these criminals to walk among your citizens.  Help me by not allowing these two to get away with this crime.  It is my greatest fear today that the Kalpoe brothers will leave Aruba.  I am asking the Aruban officials to notify the United States State Department in the event these suspects try to leave this island.  I am asking all nations not to offer them a safe haven. 

I am asking this in the name of my beautiful, intelligent and outstanding daughter, who I haven't seen for 36 days and for whom I will continue to search until I find her. 

Thank you all so much. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Oh.  How terrible. 

For the very latest on these stunning developments in the case, let's go live to Aruba and MSNBC's Martin Savidge. 

Martin, obviously not a good day for the Holloway family.  What you do have for us tonight? 

MARTIN SAVIDGE, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  No, it certainly wasn't a good day.  We knew it wasn't going to be a good day, Joe. 

But after that powerful statement that you heard from Beth Twitty, a different type of power was felt and heard in the skies over Aruba this afternoon, F-16 fighter aircraft coming from the Dutch government thundering through the skies, a very remarkable sight because, keep in mind, it is just so out of place to hear high-performance military jets tearing through the air, as they were doing this afternoon. 

This is a surveillance unit.  It is not just any F-16.  They are specially equipped with special cameras, with great sensitivity.  They can see right down to the finest detail.  This same unit was deployed, we are told, in Bosnia.  They had worked at that time to help find grass—or mass graves in that country. 

So, they say, even though they may be being used five weeks after the fact, they still can be very successful.  They have proven that before. 

Now, let's talk about the suspects that were released.  That's the Kalpoe brothers.  They spent their first day in freedom.  The family says that there is no intention of the two brothers to leave the country, as Beth Twitty is fearing.  Their attorney also says the very same thing. 

Now comes the question of whether or not the prosecution will appeal the decision to set them free.  And there could be also be another kind of appeal, this time coming from the attorney for Joran Van Der Sloot, the 17-year-old who was ordered to remain behind bars.  That attorney could appeal that decision, perhaps getting a change, meaning that the 17-year-old could go free. 

The biggest concern right now of the Holloway family is that, eventually, Joran Van Der Sloot could walk as well, all three suspects could be let go, no answers revealed, and Natalee Holloway would still be missing—Joe.

SCARBOROUGH:  Martin Savidge, can you give us any insights why the police let these two young men go, despite the fact obviously that they lied, they changed their stories, and they were the last people seen with Natalee Holloway?  Did they just not have the wherewithal in Aruba within their laws to keep them in jail any longer? 

SAVIDGE:  Well, first of all, it should be pointed out in all fairness it wasn't the prosecution that let these two suspects go.  In fact, the prosecution had fought tooth and nail to try to keep them in custody.  They believe that they are valid suspects. 

It should also be pointed out that, just because they are free to walk the streets does not mean that they have been cleared.  In other words, they are still considered to be suspects.  And they can be reapprehended at any given time.  So, the prosecution here believes that they are valid and they should have been kept behind bars. 

It was a judge that reviewed the evidence.  And the only evidence we have heard that was held against them was the fact that, yes, they were the last to be seen with Natalee Holloway.  Physical evidence just wasn't there.  But this last point I'll bring to you.  There is still further evidence that has to be brought out in this investigation.  They are waiting for DNA testing to come back from the Netherlands. 

They are also waiting for further data mining, the information coming from the computers of the young men who were the original suspects in this case.  So, there is still more to come, potentially more damning evidence.  But, right now, the evidence is slim and almost none—Joe.

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, thanks so much, NBC's Martin Savidge, as always, live from Aruba. 

Now, the mother of those two brothers just released from jail told NBC News they don't have any intention of leaving the island, just as Martin said.  And she strongly defended them. 


NADIRA RAMIREZ, MOTHER OF KALPOE BROTHERS:  I can still raise my head and walk, since, when I am in Aruba, I always walk with a lift-up head.  And I can still walk with it, that my kids didn't do anything and they are innocent. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you know, the thing—here is the thing that bothers me, OK?  Sometimes there is no physical evidence in these type of cases, but you did have the fact they were the last people seen with Natalee Holloway, first of all, publicly. 

Secondly, they lied to police.  Third, they changed their stories.  I mean, you know, again, why you release these people on the street while this investigation is ongoing, before you have the DNA evidence, before you have everything lined up is beyond me.  It obviously also is beyond Natalee's family, also very upset. 

Well, let's find out how Natalee's family is doing tonight and go live to Aruba and talk once again to Natalee's aunt Linda Allison, who has obviously been there from the very start of the investigation. 

Linda, obviously, a bad day, a bad weekend for the family.  How is everybody holding up tonight? 

LINDA ALLISON, AUNT OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  Well, yesterday's news was very devastating and it just took us a while—it took us a while to recuperate from that, very upsetting.  We met with attorneys that afternoon and met with several different people that gave us information as to where the investigation was going. 

We actually talked with the prosecuting attorney, who told us that this investigation is continuing.  There is information, the information of the confiscated items that were taken from the house and from the home—the cars, that that information is still being analyzed in the Netherlands.  So, we still have hope that there is going to be some information forthcoming. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Is there a fear that these boys have been released; next it's going to be Joran, Joran being released, despite the fact, again, they have all lied; they all have changed their stories?  In fact, they had Joran Van Der Sloot's father say to them, hey, no body, no crime. 

I mean, all of this just doesn't add up.  Are you all concerned that they may try to get rid of this entire investigation, sweep it all under the rug? 

ALLISON:  Well, our concern has been, since these two brothers were released, what is going to happen in 60 days?  Because you have to do more evidence increasing the amount of evidence to continue to hold Joran. 

And it's just that we don't understand this Dutch law.  Even with these brothers being released, we know that they are still suspects and that they could be brought in at any time.  And, again, it's that frustration of not understanding the Dutch law and how difficult this has been, because we don't have answers.  And I think most families can appreciate what we are going through if they were missing their child.  You can't get your answers quickly enough.  You want them now.  And we don't have that.


SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you say you don't understand—yes, Linda, you say you don't understand Dutch law.  But don't—isn't there a possibility that has nothing to do with Dutch law and has everything to do with a cover-up? 

ALLISON:  Well, I want to continue to hope that they are doing the best job that they can do, that the investigation is continuing, and that there is going to be evidence forthcoming with this that has been sent to the Dutch authorities in the Netherlands that—from that, the cell phone records, the computer, what was put through the instant text-messaging that, sort of thing. 

We are hoping that information is going to come along.  If it doesn't, then we might be saying, what is going on really? 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Linda, thanks, as always, for being with us.  You are always tactful.  I know you need to be tactful because the investigation continues.  But our thoughts are going to continue to be with you and the family. 

I'll tell you what, friends.  Linda is being a lot more tactful than I would ever be, certainly, because, again, you look all of the events.  You look at the—it looks like a cover-up in the government.  It looks like there is a conspiracy that's going on between these boys and the Van Der Sloots. 

And you say, wait, wait a second.  How can you jump to conclusions?  Well, Mr. Van Der Sloot has admitted that he told these boys, including the two released, hey, if there's not a body, they can't charge with you anything.  Also, of course, they were the last seen with her.  They lie to the police.  They change their stories, and now they are walking free.  Something is going on down there.  And we'll stay on it. 

And our coverage is going to continue on this story in a minute.  We are going to be talking live with Natalee's uncle.  What he did tonight that he hopes will have an impact in Aruba tomorrow. 

And, later, we're getting new details out of Idaho tonight, what police are finding out from a young girl who was abducted and who went through unspeakable ordeals—the very latest live, and also what we may be able to learn from this surveillance tape. 

Then, this man jumped into a river to save a struggling swimmer.  And what did he get?  Arrested.  He is here to tell us all about it when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Tom Cruise fires his publicist, goes crazy, makes a fool of himself in public.  And then he has the number one movie of the week. 

We'll tell you about it when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.



SCARBOROUGH:  The Kalpoe brothers are free now.  And, after five weeks, only Joran Van Der Sloot remains behind bars.  And Natalee Holloway's family obviously demanding answers. 

Let's go live now to Houston, Texas, and we're going to bring in Natalee's uncle, Paul Reynolds. 

Paul, obviously, you've got to be very disappointed about the release of these two suspects.  But you've done something to try to influence people in Aruba and their way of thinking.  Tell us about it. 

PAUL REYNOLDS, UNCLE OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  Well, today, I wrote a letter to the newspapers in Aruba. 

I felt that it was important that we differentiate between the people of Aruba and the government and judicial system of Aruba and those few individuals that are holding all of us hostage at this time. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you know, let's read, if we can, a part of your letter. 

You say: “There are a very small number of individuals that are holding the people of Aruba, the Holloway family and what seems like the whole world hostage.  These individuals know what happened and are refusing to accept responsibility for their actions.  It also appears that certain individuals may be attempting to protect those individuals that know what happened.”

It sounds like a cover-up to me, Paul.  Is that what you are implying? 

REYNOLDS:  Well, you know, when you look the investigation, the problems with it, the delay, 10-day delay in picking up the individuals, giving them a chance to hide evidence, to coordinate their stories, and then you look at the fact that they were lying.  They admitted lying.  Joran is on his third story.  The two Kalpoe brothers admitted lying, helping him to cover up. 


SCARBOROUGH:  And—and—and, yet, they are released, Paul.  You are right.  They lied.  They were told by the father, you know what?  Get rid of the body and they can't charge you with anything.  It sounds like a conspiracy.  It sounds like a cover-up. 

But there is part of your letter that really surprised me.  You talked about a backlash against the Holloway family.  You think there is a backlash among the people of Aruba?  Are they turning against you?  Are they turning against Natalee?  Are they turning against Natalee's mom? 

REYNOLDS:  Well, I'm—what I am seeing in the Aruban newspapers is that everyone there is frustrated with the situation.  And I certainly understand that. 

I know that the Aruban people want this case resolved, as much as our family does.  And it's unfair.  They are being held hostage, as we are and the rest of the world, and as these few individuals keep these secrets.  and it does appear people are assisting them in keeping this a secret. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I will tell you what, Paul.  It looks like a full-blown cover-up.  And I think you need to keep writing letters down there, because, obviously, these people—either, they are stupid and they don't know what they are doing, or they know exactly what they are doing and they are covering things up and they are trying to protect some very powerful people. 

Paul, as always, thanks for being with us in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  And we look forward to having you back to have a follow-up on how they responded, the people of Aruba, responded to your letters. 

REYNOLDS:  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, let's go ahead and go to Susan Filan. 

Susan, obviously a former prosecutor, you are looking at this situation down in Aruba.  And you hear—what are you hearing?  You're hearing, oh, they had to let these boys go.  They had no evidence.  I mean, I may not know Dutch law, but, my gosh, it seems like they could have kept these guys for quite a while. 

SUSAN FILAN, FORMER PROSECUTOR:  No.  They didn't have to let them go.  Under Dutch law, they can be detained for 116 days.  My calculations has them detained about 30 -- or about a month into it.

Why let them go?  There's outstanding information to be gathered.  Letting them go is not going to further the investigation.  We don't have investigative detention in America.  They do have in it Aruba.  Why not take advantage of what they do have?  They've got so little to go on as it is.  Why not contain these two young men? 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Susan.  OK.

OK, so, so, basically, they have an even lower standard for holding suspects.  Let me just ask you, if that is the case, then let's talk about America.  Let's say for instance you had these two guys last seen with a young woman leaving a bar.  And we'll take it to Natalee's hometown in Birmingham.  They were the last seen with her.  They lied to police.  They changed their stories two times. 

And a father of somebody involved in the case came to them and whispered, hey, if they don't find a body, they can't charge with you a crime.  Wouldn't that in and of itself be enough to continue holding these guys? 

FILAN:  Probably not in America.  Here we go with the standard of probable cause.  You probably don't have that based on what you just recited. 

But it certainly fits the threshold for what is in Aruba.  Here, you could hold them for about 48 hours.  If you weren't able to actually charge them, you would probably have to let them go.  You would want to keep them under surveillance.  You would want to get your...


FILAN:  ... together rather quickly.

SCARBOROUGH:  But, I mean, don't we charge people, though, all the time?  Susan, don't we charge people all the time that we don't have physical evidence? 

FILAN:  Oh, sure. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I mean, obviously, there are a lot of disappearances where you just don't have physical evidence. 

FILAN:  Oh, sure. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And yet people have actually been sent to the electric chair without physical evidence in a murder. 

FILAN:  Right.  Physical evidence isn't the bar.

Here, what we've got to do is link these gentlemen to her disappearance and I hope not her murder.  I am so sorry for this family.  I am a mom, too, and I hate to say it.  But, look, they've got enough to detain them under Aruba law.  They have 116 days to exercise this investigative detention. 

So, why let them go prematurely?  There's things they have to still do, the e-mails, the computer, the DNA.  To let them go does absolutely nothing to further this investigation.  And you're right.  Maybe now they are going to start to let Joran go, too.  So, it really raises the question, what is going on in that court?  It's sealed.  We don't have a transcript.  We don't have the basis for the judge's ruling.  We don't have the prosecutor's remarks. 

I understand they have got three days to appeal and they are considering doing so.  We are without information.  We are in the dark and they are letting these guys go.  It's counterintuitive.

The other thing I'm upset is, the FBI has been down there, but have they really been allowed to help and participate?  I know they are sovereign and they want to do it their own way.  But isn't the bottom line here, the goal, to find Natalee and find out what happened here? 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you know what?  Susan, it's not.  It's not obviously in this case.  The FBI agents I have talked to said they've been shut out.  They've not been allowed to do anything. 

Susan, thanks for being with us—Susan Filan, former prosecutor. 

Great having you here with us in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Now let's turn to another story, a story out of Texas that's gotten a lot of attention here in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY today.

Imagine this.  A swimmer is drowning in a swollen river when my next guest dives in to save his life.  It happened over the weekend in San Marcos, Texas.  The drowning man, who said he knew he was dead, he was finished, then he survived.  But you're not going to believe what happened next.

The hero who risked his own life to save this guy was arrested. 

Police said he got in the way. 

With me now to talk about it is that hero, who actually spent a night in jail for saving somebody's life. 

Dave Newman, thanks for being with me. 

I mean, I'll tell you what.  These Texas officials that arrested you, maybe they should be transferred down to Aruba.  They're Keystone Cops.  First of all, tell us what happened. 

The guy you rescued said that he was saying to himself as he was going under, I'm dead.  I'm done for.  There is no way I am going to survive. 

You jump in the water, save his life.  Tell us about it. 

DAVE NEWMAN, SAVED DROWNING MAN'S LIFE:  Well, I was in the water when I saw him go under.  There was about a four-second span of time when I saw him be carried by the current up under the building. 

And, at that time, we waited for—I waited for him to come up.  And so did some other people.  We noticed that he didn't come up.  And our level of concern grew.  And we made our way over to that area.  And I began to feel back up in that cavity.  There is a sort of manmade cave—I would call it a cavity—underwater that he was in. 

And we began to feel back in there.  And then some people gathered and brought some ropes and a crab net that we were feeling, probing that area with.  And then some diving goggles.  And about the time that the EMS and the police arrived, I had actually brushed up against something in there letting myself down on a rope secured to one of the bars on the wall there at the scene. 

And I touched something.  And then, when I came back up, the police were yelling for everyone out of the water, out of the water.  And I knew that I had brushed something up in there.  And I thought one more attempt was worth risking going against their wishes, the police. 

And when I went down again, a foot appeared amidst the bubbles and so forth.  And I thought it was the foot of a dead man.  And I grabbed it and pulled and there was no response.  I grabbed his shorts, his swimsuit, and pulled myself back out toward the opening of that cavity on the rope. 

And, as I saw the light, I brought him across my body and shoved him up toward the surface.  And there was another gentlemen down there, a 19-year-old kid, who was assisting me with this rescue attempt.  And he helped the victim there get to an area where the current wasn't so strong and to shallow water, where we could catch our—he could catch his breath and so forth.  I followed. 

And I was pretty exhausted from the whole maneuver.  I needed to stop and rest.  I had been swimming and treading water.  The man was down under water for 10 to 15 minutes.  He called me the night that I got out of jail.  And I had a few questions.  I said...


SCARBOROUGH:  Let's get into that, Dave.  Let's get into that for a second, because you saved this guy's life.  Obviously, you risk your own life to go in there.  The police tell you while you are making the rescue to get out. 

So, you've got to decide, are you going to obey the cops or are you going to save this guy's life?  You decide to save his life.  You get him to the shore.  And then, when you swim to shore, a cop sticks his hand out.  You think he's offering a hand to help you up.  What happens next? 

NEWMAN:  That's right. 

I took a moment or two to catch my breath before I decided to swim across the river to get to the other side, where the police were.  There were six or seven of them lined up abreast yelling, hollering, get out of the river, get out of the river now, now. 

And I paused for a second.  And I was fairly well exhausted.  I needed to catch my breath before I went out across the river and went for another lap there.  But, as soon as I could, I headed back out across the river toward the police to comply with their directive at that point.  And, as soon as I got to the other side, the officer closest extended his hand to help me out of the water.  And I took his hand and he put the cuffs on me.  And I went to jail.

SCARBOROUGH:  That's amazing. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Now, I understand—I understand, Dave, obviously, this guy whose life you saved was shocked you were arrested.  The crowd that had gathered there were jeering the police officers, booing them.  Talk about how the community has responded, not only to you saving this young man's life, but also to the police throwing you in jail for saving this young man's life. 

NEWMAN:  Well, I was busy today. 

It was nonstop interviews from all the different news agencies in our area.  I was just amazed when I got out of the water that they had handcuffed me.  And also the victim himself, when he was trapped under there—it was just a quiet day at the river.  There were a lot of people down there, of course.  But when he got out, it was the E-mails.  The San Marcos Police Department, the university police department at Texas State University, and maybe the SWAT team.  I don't know. 

There was a host of authoritative figures down there. 



NEWMAN:  And he—when—when the victim, the gentleman, inquired, what's all this about?  They said, it's because you, you were drowning.  This is the response.  And he said, who is that guy in handcuffs over there?  They said, that's the guy who pulled you out. 


SCARBOROUGH:  That's the guy that saved your life.  Exactly. 

NEWMAN:  That's it.

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, listen, Dave, thanks for being here.  Man, thanks for being a hero.  We greatly appreciate it. 

And we'll be right back in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  We'll be taking you out to Idaho with the latest shocking developments there. 


SCARBOROUGH:  You are looking at surveillance tape of a man who may be charged with kidnapping, rape and murder.  But the big question tonight, why was this beast ever let back out on the streets after raping two other young boys? 

That's straight ahead.  But, first, here is the latest news that you and your family need to know. 


SCARBOROUGH:  This is the man that police say kidnapped little Shasta Groene, convicted sex offender Joseph Duncan. 

NBC's Michael Okwu has been following the story all weekend and he is here tonight live in Idaho with the very latest. 

Michael, what you do have? 

MICHAEL OKWU, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Well, Joe, it was an emotional day today, but, then again, it's been an emotional week here in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. 

Joseph Duncan appearing in court today via video link looking unshaven.  He was shackled, wearing a look of stoicism, staring straight into the judge's eyes.  Duncan today was charged with two counts of kidnapping in the case, of course, of Dylan and Shasta Groene.  And he was ordered held without bail. 

Now, according to court documents released today, the children were repeatedly arrested by Duncan.  A conviction in this case could carry the death penalty or, in fact, life behind bars. 

Now, we are also hearing for the very first time some of the details that may have occurred on the night that the children were, in fact, abducted, what those children may have seen on the night of May 16.  Now, we understand that those documents also show that 8-year-old Shasta Groene saw her entire family for the most part being tied up just moments before she and her 9-year-old brother, Dylan, were taken off into the van that was driven, in fact, by Duncan. 

Now, the affidavit also does not mention any of the details of the triple homicide.  It does not mention the beatings.  But we do understand today that the FBI has, in fact, confirmed that the children were seen with Duncan somewhere in the Lolo National Forest in northwestern Montana, which, of course, is where they found those human remains that they are still waiting for DNA testing of—back to you, Joe.

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, thank you so much, Michael.  Greatly appreciate it. 

Now, the question on so many minds tonight is this:  How is Shasta doing after surviving such an ordeal?  And earlier tonight, Shasta's aunts, Brandy Hoagland and also Misty Cooper, the sister of Shasta's murdered mother, gave this update to MSNBC's Dan Abrams.  Take a listen. 


BRANDY HOAGLAND, SHASTA AND DYLAN GROENE'S AUNT:  Little Shasta, believe it or not, she is doing great.  She looks absolutely wonderful.  She looks like she is in good physical condition.  She—we just went and visited her again today.  We have been there every day, every opportunity we can get to see her.  It is the most amazing feeling after going through what we have been the last seven weeks, so worried.  It is an amazing feeling to be able to hold her in your arms and actually see a smile on her face right now.

She is a very strong little girl just like her mother.  Her mother was very strong.  I honestly cannot even imagine what this little girl has gone through in the last seven weeks.  I mean, she does look like she is doing very good right now, but you have to believe at some point a lot of things are going to start hitting her, probably very slowly as she goes through a process.  And she's going to need a lot of help and a lot of counseling probably and a lot of love from the family.


SCARBOROUGH:  Boy, no doubt about it, going to need counseling, a lot of prayers, a lot of people pulling for her.  And, certainly, all of us are tonight. 

Let's go back to Idaho right now and bring in Lansing Haynes.  He is the county deputy prosecutor looking at this case. 

Thank you so much for being with us tonight, Mr. Haynes.  Greatly appreciate it.  Obviously, we have learned tonight that actually Shasta was there, saw her family bound before she was taken away.  Does this open the possibility that Mr. Duncan will be facing murder charges soon? 

LANSING HAYNES, KOOTENAI COUNTY DEPUTY PROSECUTOR:  I can't really say whether there is going to be further charges until the entire investigation is completed. 

There's a lot more police work to be done and we'll be working closely with law enforcement and we'll make the decisions when the investment is complete. 

SCARBOROUGH:  But Shasta was there and said she did see the family tied up.  Did she tell you all whether there was anybody else there, other than the man who ended up abducting her and raping her and her brother? 

HAYNES:  My understanding is that she has said that she was aware only of this man that we know as Joseph Duncan, as he being the only one who abducted she and her brother and spent time with them when they were in the campsites at the locations they were at. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And you certainly have no other suspects for the murders other than—and I am not saying Mr. Duncan is a suspect tonight, but, certainly, he is the only one that you all have placed on the scene that night, correct? 

HAYNES:  That is right. 

So far, he is the person that was at least at the scene of the kidnapping.  And that's all that he—that the charges include today, are the two counts of first-degree kidnapping. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Can you tell us about Mr. Duncan's demeanor right now?  Has he made any confessions or is he being fairly stoic about the whole thing. 

HAYNES:  I wouldn't be allowed to comment about any confession, whether one existed or not.

And the only thing about his demeanor that I know was seeing him on the video link at his first appearance today.  And I saw what other people saw. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Final question.  Do you all in the department believe that one person could have possibly tied up all of those people, killed them and taken these two away by themselves? 

HAYNES:  Well, I wouldn't be one to say who—how much one person could do.  We'll wait for the investigation to be complete and determine who and how many were involved in that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Already, prosecutor Lansing Haynes, we greatly appreciate you being with us tonight to get us up-to-date on this tragic story. 

I want to show everybody now some chilling video.  It's tape of little Shasta as she walks around a gas station convenience store, while her alleged captor, Joseph Duncan, stands nearby.  The question that a lot of people are asking is, why didn't she call out for help when other people are around or why didn't she run away and scream when she had a few seconds to do that?  Experts say Shasta's action are not unusual at all. 

And somebody who obviously knows about this firsthand is Ed Smart.  His daughter, Elizabeth Smart, obviously held hostage for nine agonizing months in 2003. 

Ed, thank you so much for being with us.  You look at that video.  You hear a lot of people saying, my gosh, why didn't she stand up and scream, help me, help me?

Take us into her mind from what you know from your daughter and others that have been in this agonizing situation. 

ED SMART, FATHER OF ELIZABETH SMART:  Well, I think, first off, you take a look at her and what she went through, the possibility of witnessing her mother and brother, et cetera, tied up.  We don't know if she saw them killed or not.

But having gone through that, know that he was capable of doing something of that nature, then he also—it didn't show her brother in that video.  And there is the potential that, you know, if you do anything, I'm going to kill you or I'm going to kill your family.  And I think, when you look at this, which is—I believe that it's very real. 

I mean, the night Elizabeth was taken, you know, Mitchell had a knife right there on her ribs.  And, I mean, that is real. 


SMART:  And so, afterwards, I think that you look at the intimidation, the threats, the threats that are very real there.  That's as good as having an instrument in his hands in controlling her. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, it's emotional terrorism. 

Let me ask you, Ed, about this, $15,000 bail set for this beast in North Dakota, after he raped two young boys.  How in the world is that still going on? 

SMART:  I cannot imagine. 

To me, sex offenders should not be able to get out on bail bond.  They shouldn't be out period.  And, as you know, current legislation that's been talked about, you have talked about it a lot, is currently coming up in both the House and in the Senate.  And we would ask that everyone call their senators and their congressmen to please make this happen.  We've got to see it happen. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It's just got—it's got to happen, Ed.  It's got to happen.

I want to ask you a final—final—final thing.  You know, I heard the story about how she was sitting there at the table that night at Denny's stoically at 2:00 in the morning.  When the waitress finally came over, talked to her, she was smiling.  Everybody act normal.  But, finally, when she was separated from her captor, she broke down and cried, hugged this pregnant waitress, said, I want my daddy.  I want my daddy. 

Did that remind you of anybody?  I mean, it sounded so much like your daughter, who was stoic until she knew she was free from the beast.  And then she broke down and cried. 

SMART:  Absolutely.  I just—you know, these poor children, they are so threatened that it becomes a conditioning. 

And I think that, until they realize—I mean, with Elizabeth, there were people within range of where she was, heat-seeking helicopters, dogs and everyone.  And nobody could find her for nine months.  Nobody could find her.  And I truly believe that they feel that, how is anyone ever going to help me?  How am I going to get away from this predator? 


Such a sad, tragic situation.  But, in this case, at least with Shasta, like your daughter, a happy ending.  Thanks, Ed, for being with us.  We really do appreciate it. 

SMART:  You bet.  Thanks, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Coming up next, news out of Hollywood that Tom Cruise's “War of the Worlds” scores big at the box office, that after his Matt Lauer interview, his Scientology revelations and that really strange engagement to his wife-to-be.  What does it mean about America?  What does it mean about the box office? 

Also coming up, a wild twist on twisters, a historic moment in America that we'll tell you about when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 




TOM CRUISE, ACTOR:  ... this house in 60 seconds.


SCARBOROUGH:  It's the number one movie in the country.  And Tom Cruise has proven this weekend, with the success of “War of the Worlds,” that jumping on couches and talking about Scientology may not be bad for your career. 

Do moviegoers just not care about the religious lives or the strange actions of their stars? 

With me now to talk about it, Richard Walter from UCLA's Department of Film and Television and also television film critic, Govindini Murty, co-director of the Liberty Film Festival. 

Let's start with you, Richard Walker—Walter.

Does this prove once and for all, once and for all, that Americans don't care what people do off the screen; they only care what they do up on the big screen? 

RICHARD WALTER, UCLA DEPARTMENT OF FILM AND TELEVISION:  Yes.  I mean, proves is a really strong word.  But, sure.  I have always argued they absolutely care not a whit. 

Only the media, only shows like this care about such issues.  And, quite frankly, I've had it up to here with all of the Hollywood bashing.  Audiences are smarter than that.  The movie industry, information, entertainment, it's America's greatest industry, Joe.  It employs of thousands of people in the world, biggest state. 

It makes no pollution.  It contributes vastly to the reduction of the national debt, to the trade imbalance.  And it preaches and extols values...

SCARBOROUGH:  All good things. 

WALTER:  ... that are all good, that are patriotic, that are family.  That's what really wins in Hollywood.  And “War of the Worlds” is just further testimony to the proof of that proposition. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Govindini, what do you say to the professor? 

GOVINDINI MURTY, LIBERTY FILM FESTIVAL:  Well, I am astounded that I am going to actually agree with something with Professor Walter tonight on. 

Yes, I think the interesting thing is that the success of “War of the Worlds” and of “Batman” and a lot of the movies this summer shows that the American public is actually very tolerant of different religious faiths, a lot more so than the liberal media or liberals in Hollywood would have you believe, who like to paint the American public as, you know, stupid and racist and the whole bit and intolerant towards different religions, which isn't the case. 

They're very tolerant.  But what I would like to point out is that the American public might be tolerant of different religious faiths, but I don't think Hollywood is.  And I think Hollywood has been really treating Tom Cruise in a very unfair manner.  He might be a Scientologist.  Madonna might be into Kabbalah.  You know what?  Who cares? 

If those religious faiths make those people believe that—it makes them better people, then good for them.  But most of the derision towards Tom Cruise has been coming from Hollywood.  And I'd like to ask why the same derision isn't being directed toward someone like Sean Penn for his ludicrous trip to Iran.  Obviously, there's some selection going on here in terms of who they decide to ridicule.


SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you know, Professor, it seems—it seems to me, though, Professor, also, that, obviously, Mel Gibson took an awful lot of abuse when “The Passion” came out. 

WALTER:  Well, he did very, very well with that movie.  He is a hero in Hollywood for having a hugely, vastly successful...

SCARBOROUGH:  He was called an anti-Semite.


SCARBOROUGH:  He was called a bigot, a Jew hater. 

WALTER:  The movie underscores old shibboleths and old beliefs about how the Jews destroyed Jesus.  Those noble Romans tried to intervene.  But these evil rabbis wanted to do it.



SCARBOROUGH:  Well, see, it sounds like you are talking—it sound like you're talking the company line there, Professor. 


The fact of the matter is that Hollywood is just like every other business.  It only cares about money.  That is not unique to Hollywood. 



WALTER:  The pizza store at the corner has a bottom line.  MSNBC has a bottom line.  Liberty University and Reverend Falwell's operations all have a bottom line.  If they don't succeed with the bottom line, they collapse.  That's why it called the bottom line, because it's beneath everything. 

It's the bottom of everything.

MURTY:  You know what? 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  We are going to have to leave it there. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Thank you, Professor. 

Thank you, Ms. Murty.  Greatly appreciate it.  I'll give you a chance to answer in another edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. 

Coming up next, they're very excited over the National Weather Service today.  We're going to show you something that hasn't happened since Harry Truman was in the White House. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Two thousand five has been an historic year when it comes to tornadoes and twisters.  We'll tell you why when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.


SCARBOROUGH:  It's a twister.  It's a twister.  What a bad movie that was. 

But now the good news.  For the first time since record-keeping started back in 1950, not a single person has been killed by a tornado in April, May or June of a calendar year.  That's the first time since 1950, 55 years ago.  And this spring has the record-keepers amazed.  Now, normally, twister fatalities average 52 in those three spring months, sometimes even more.

But this year, again, 2005, zero, zip, nada.  Now, back in 1992, they thought they had hit a low record mark when one person was killed.  But now again, in 2005, not a single fatality in those three deadly months.  Experts say that the storms never really formed in so-called Tornado Ally, which is the area that stretches across Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska and South Dakota.  All in all, it's a good time to be a tornado tracker, not so good a time to live in Hurricane Alley in the Redneck Riviera. 

That's all the time we have for tonight.  If you have something to say, send me an e-mail at Joe@MSNBC.com.

We'll see you tomorrow night in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.



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