Guest: Randy Hammer, Stacey Honowitz, Tim Miller, Paul Reynolds, Linda
Allison, John Merryweather, Bernard Goldberg
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST: Tonight's top headline: outrage in Aruba, as protesters target Natalee Holloway's mother.
Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. No passport required and only common sense allowed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it is time for us to express some frustration and—and—and our huge concerns as to what is happening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: Rising anger in Aruba, as islanders protest comments made by Natalee's mom. But the family refuses to stop their search for their daughter and for the truth. We are live in Aruba with all the details.
Then, more on the amazing story of how little Shasta Groene survived a hellacious ordeal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE GROENE, FATHER OF SHASTA AND DYLAN: People like this should not be allowed out in public.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: Still, the question we are all asking is, why was this dangerous sex predator still walking the streets?
And what do Michael Moore, Sean Penn, Barbra Streisand and Cameron Diaz all have in common? Bernard Goldberg says that they are screwing up America. And he is here tonight in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to tell us why.
ANNOUNCER: From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all. Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.
SCARBOROUGH: Hey, welcome to the show.
You know, there is a lot of activity going on in Aruba, a lot of it disturbing, as Natalee Holloway's family continues their desperate search for their missing daughter. But nerves are getting frayed. Some Arubans have taken to the streets after Natalee's mother called two brothers just released from prison criminals, this as a lawyer for one of those suspects is threatening to sue her over the comments. Clearly, tempers are getting very short in Aruba.
For more on the rising tensions on the island and the latest in this desperate search for an Alabama teenager, let's go to NBC's Ron Blome.
Ron...
RON BLOME, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: It sounds like things are really heating up in Aruba.
Give us the very latest.
BLOME: Well, they like to call this their slogan, one happy island.
But this fabric of politeness is what being frayed here.
There was a rally scheduled for last night for justice. But after Beth Holloway came on the air yesterday and was very direct in calling the Kalpoe brothers criminals who had been left to walk the island, well, this protest last night turned into something else. It was a protest against the media, and also against the very sharp language that Beth Twitty had used yesterday.
Today, she told me that she was not trying to offend the island, but she is not backing off her effort to try to bring back her daughter at all.
Now, of course, the Kalpoe brothers, who were released, the prosecutor has an option here. They can vote to choose to appeal that. And that is exactly what they did. They filed an appeal motion today. It has to be heard probably within about a week. Also, the attorney for Joran van der Sloot, whose client was held in for another 60 days, he said, I want my appeal, too. He should not be in jail. He should be like the Kalpoes and should be released.
All of these appeals coming together at the appeals court in Curacao next week. Now, the search goes on as well. The F-16s flew two more sorties today. They are carrying some very high-tech cameras in the pods. They said these were effective in the Balkans at trying to find the graves that resulted from the war there. And they're hoping that, if there is a grave on this island or in the waters around, it will help turn it up.
And that, Joe, is the latest tonight from Aruba.
SCARBOROUGH: Ron, it has got to seem surreal to this family. They are down. They're trying to find their daughter. They believe there may be a Caribbean cover-up going on. And they are the ones who are being attacked by the natives. Have you got any response from the family tonight? How are they handling it?
BLOME: They don't think they are under attack at all.
They think it is a small protest organized by a couple of talk radio stations that are trying to capitalize on the frustrations. But for five-and-a-half weeks, they have been out pushing hard for a solution to this case. And that has to grate on some people. And that is what we're hearing on the local radio. So, in the big picture, I don't think it is a big fissure yet.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, thanks so much, Ron Blome. Greatly appreciate that update.
You know, friends, Ron talks about the family. I have got to tell you, Natalee Holloway's mother has been doing a remarkable job down there. She is doing what we would hope our mothers would do. She is fighting for her daughter. She is fighting for the truth. She is fighting against what she believes is a Caribbean cover-up. She is fighting for justice.
But she is also being very tactful. Now, you know, the Arubans may be angry. Some of them may be protesting in the streets. But throughout this entire process, it has been very hard to get her to say anything negative about the Aruban government. It has been very hard to get anybody in Natalee's family to attack the Aruban government. And, again, for these 200 people to go out and protest, for others to be angry at what she is doing, well, I don't understand it.
One man who does understand it, though, is our next guest. He is John Merryweather. He's a former Aruban minister and was a participant in yesterday's protest.
Mr. Merryweather, thank you so much for being with us tonight. Tell us, why were you involved in that protest? What do you think that Natalee's mother did wrong?
JOHN MERRYWEATHER, FORMER ARUBA DIPLOMAT: Well, first—no, no, first of all, I'd like to answer why I was at the—not protest. It was a gathering in support of our justice system. It was not a protest. It never started out as a protest either. I would like that to be very, very clear.
When I was there, I hadn't heard what the comments of Natalee's mother either of the day. I was asked that after I was there. I went there. I was not part of the organization, but I went there in support of our justice system.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: What did she say that was wrong? What did Natalee's mother say that was...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: No, what did Natalee's mother say that offended so many people in Aruba?
MERRYWEATHER: Well, you know, it—it—it offended me, also. You cannot—these two boys, I don't know them. I don't know the parents. I don't know anyone involved in this personally.
But our justice system, as yours in the states, you are innocent until proven guilty. This system of ours, whether you agree with it or not, whether you understand it or not, allows these people to be free at this moment, but they are not free of charges. They have not been exonerated from this case.
They have not been found innocent. They are witnesses. And they can be called upon at any time.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: OK, Mr. Merryweather, that is fair enough. I mean, that is a fair enough point. You're innocent until proven guilty.
Can you understand, though...
MERRYWEATHER: Yes.
SCARBOROUGH: ... why Natalee's mother and why a lot of Americans are upset by the fact that the three key suspects, the last people seen alive with Natalee, they were released for 11 days, allowed to get the stories straight, allowed to clean up the car, allowed to clean up their homes, and then these two Kalpoe boys that were released why, they lied to the police. They changed tear stories two or three times.
MERRYWEATHER: Yes.
SCARBOROUGH: And now they are walking the island. Can you not understand why some Americans are scratching their heads, saying what in the heck is going on in Aruba?
MERRYWEATHER: You know, first of all, this is not the United States. This—we are governed here also by Dutch law, Aruban law that is years and years older than the United States. And the Dutch law has proven itself over the years.
It is just the law of the land that we all have to abide by. I sympathize very, very much with Natalee's parents and family. We here in Aruba, I personally, my family, if we could go out and we could find the solution to this tonight, we would do it, because it is not only having an effect on them. It's having an effect on the whole community.
This is a small island and everybody is involved here and everybody is just as frustrated in another way maybe. But we want also—we want to have closure. And we would rather have closure that Natalee be found alive safe and well and go back to the states, but, in any event, closure, because this is disrupting the island totally.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: I'm sure it is, Mr. Merryweather.
One final question. Maybe you can educate it, because you say Dutch law is older than American law.
MERRYWEATHER: That's right.
SCARBOROUGH: So, maybe you can educate us and help us understand why you would have the three key suspects, the three guys last seen with Natalee Holloway the night she disappeared, walk the island free for 11 days.
Explain how the maturity of Dutch law allows that to happen in a way that we Americans with our—gee, it's only 220 years old—and the American legal system doesn't understand it?
MERRYWEATHER: Well, I didn't mean that as an insult either or a gibe.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: No, no, no. I am just trying to figure out, though, why do you let them walk for 11 days?
(CROSSTALK)
MERRYWEATHER: That—only the people involved in the investigation and, in accordance with the , can tell you, they have to present evidence to the courts to be held to begin with.
And each time, they have an extension. And at a certain moment, if there is no more evidence, no more new evidence to hold them, they have to be let free until such time—when I say let free, they are not free of the case. They are not free of the case.
SCARBOROUGH: Right.
MERRYWEATHER: They are still part of the case.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: They are still possible suspects, what you are saying, but they still may—they may be suspects, even though they are walking.
(CROSSTALK)
MERRYWEATHER: Yes.
Look, even if—there is an appeal. The—the—the—the Justice Department appeals them walking free. This now comes in front of three judges. And I understand it may be as soon as Friday.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: All right, thank you so much, Mr. Merryweather. We greatly appreciate it.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: If the three judges find there's justification, they walk or they may go back in.
MERRYWEATHER: If the three judges find justification, they will go right straight back to jail.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, thank you so much, Mr. Merryweather. We know you live on a great island. Everybody has called Aruba the happy island. I have got friends that have visited there, say it is very safe. It's a wonderful place. That is why I'm so hurt and why a lot of Americans are hurt that we don't think we are getting the answers that we deserve.
Now, we have got a lot more to come from Aruba, including whether the United States Navy may get involved in the search for Natalee. Also, EquuSearch goes underwater. They have got new details and they may have found something today that will lead to a break in this case. And we will tell you about it right after the break.
And then to the incredible survival story of Shasta Groene. We're going to have all new details that could get the predator who kidnapped her the death penalty.
Don't go away. SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY is just getting started.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: Florida is bracing again. My hometown is bracing again, as hurricane season comes early. Dennis is targeting Florida and my hometown again—a live report on the storm, a look ahead at what may be the worst hurricane season ever.
Stay with us. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: Linda Allison is with us here now. She's of course Natalee's aunt.
Linda, thank you so much for being with us tonight. We greatly appreciate it.
LINDA ALLISON, AUNT OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: Thank you again, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: I just—I just had a bit of a fight with an Aruban official, who basically justified the Aruban island going after, going after Natalee's mom.
You weren't a part of that. You don't know what is going on as far as that goes. You continue to search. Tell me, what are the spirits of the searchers? What is left to search on the island?
ALLISON: We still have very many areas to cover on this island. When people say it is only 19 or 20 inches—I'm sorry -- 19 or 20 miles wide by five to six miles, it's still a lot of geography to cover. The terrain is very difficult to get through, a lot of undergrowth, I just a lot of cacti, thorns, that sort of thing. It's difficult to search.
SCARBOROUGH: Linda, obviously, a lot of reports today about protesters today going after Beth, criticizing her for being aggressive for attacking the two boys released.
Tell me, what are you sensing as you move about the island? Are you sensing a backlash? Are you getting a lot of help from Arubans in this search for Natalee?
ALLISON: Well, I think the people that are protesting is a very small number, because the people that I encounter across this island are very friendly. They're very supportive. Their heart goes out to us.
They are telling us they are praying for us, that they want us to find Natalee. So, I think this group that may be protesting is just a very, very small portion of the general population. And I don't think that is the general consensus of this total population.
SCARBOROUGH: Final question. I see a ribbon on your shirt. Tell me about it.
ALLISON: I'm sorry?
SCARBOROUGH: I see a ribbon on your shirt.
ALLISON: Oh, the ribbon, the pink ribbon.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. Tell me about it.
ALLISON: EquuSearch put some ribbons together today—or at least they have had them together. And today, when I was helping with the search with EquuSearch, I obtained this pin from one of the ladies that's involved with EquuSearch.
SCARBOROUGH: All right.
ALLISON: Just as a remembrance of Natalee and that we're trying to find her.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. Thank you so much, Linda. We really appreciate you coming out again tonight, telling your story and also obviously the story of Natalee.
ALLISON: Thank you so much.
SCARBOROUGH: All right.
Now let's bring in Natalee's uncle, Paul Reynolds.
Paul, last night, we had you on. You revealed to us first, before anybody else, that you were sending a letter to the editor of several newspapers down in Aruba. Can you tell me, what kind of reaction has that letter that you sent gotten so far?
PAUL REYNOLDS, UNCLE OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I haven't heard any reaction. But, certainly, I am hoping that the people of Aruba understand that, you know, our focus is not on them. They are great people.
They have been very compassionate. It is not even on the judicial system. It is those very few individuals that are responsible for Natalee's disappearance and the investigation. We have many concerns and questions about the investigation and how it is proceeding.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, Paul, you talk about a small group of people.
Are you talking about the three boys and Mr. van der Sloot?
REYNOLDS: Well, certainly, the three boys are the original suspects, the ones that were identified the day of Natalee's disappearance. They are, of course, the focus.
The two that were released, they did commit a crime, whether you call it obstruction of justice or interfering with an investigation. And when you are looking at a potential kidnapping or homicide, those are serious charges.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: And, of course, there are charges they lied about—they lied. They changed their story. They are the last ones seen with Natalee. I can't believe these guys are walking around out there.
But I want to ask you this question. Can you believe tonight, after all the hell that you have gone through, your sister has gone through, your family has gone through, that there are actually people on the island of Aruba, including a former diplomat who with us early in this show, that are actually targeting your sister for criticism?
REYNOLDS: They simply don't understand, you know, the focus of our concerns.
It's—again, it is those few individuals. And we have to look at the investigation. People there think the FBI was helping. The FBI was refused in their offers of assistance. They think that the investigative team is accepting EquuSearch. And they are not. They are hindering them.
There's many problems with the investigation. And that is my primary concern, that I have asked the prime minister and Dutch authorities to bring in—launch an independent investigation due to the potential conflicts of interests that we have there.
SCARBOROUGH: And they are not doing it, obviously.
I mean, now, the FBI agents are saying they are not being allowed to do anything down there. Everybody I talk to in Washington, D.C., is saying the same thing. There is frustration up and down the chain of command, because there seems to be—I'm not going to say it is a cover-up yet. It certainly seems like it's a cover-up to me. But something is not right down in Aruba.
Final question. How is your sister handing the criticism? Here, she has lost her daughter. She don't know if she is dead or alive. She don't know where she is. She is going through this personal hell and now she is being attacked by some people on the island. How is she holding up tonight?
REYNOLDS: Well, again, she has to go back to her faith and her hope and her love of her daughter. But, like Linda said, so many people down there greet her like they greeted me, with respect and compassion and genuine concern for Natalee's return.
SCARBOROUGH: Has Beth always been this tough?
REYNOLDS: I didn't—I didn't—I guess I didn't always know it, but she is a great person. She is a great sister.
SCARBOROUGH: She is, and she is tough.
Hey, thanks a lot. Greatly appreciate you being with us again, Paul. And we will stay—we will stay on top of the Aruban officials and get their response to your letter.
REYNOLDS: All right. Thank you.
SCARBOROUGH: Now let's turn to Tim Miller. He of course, is a leader of the volunteer team teaching for Natalee.
Tim, we understand you could have made what may be an important discovery in the waters off of Aruba. Tell us about it.
TIM MILLER, FOUNDER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Well, I mean, we certainly don't want to get anybody excited. We found some things out there with a sidescan sonar in very, very rough waters, very dangerous diving conditions. Our divers have been in. They can't be in there very long. It's very dangerous.
SCARBOROUGH: What did you find?
MILLER: We are going to go back out tomorrow morning.
Well, it is possible there is something that is manmade, possibly like a container or something, that we are interested in. We want to find it. We—I certainly talked with the commissioner on this and let him know the interest that we had.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Where is the container? Do you -- do you have something that looks like a manmade container that is actually at the bottom of the ocean?
MILLER: Well, it is at the bottom of the ocean. It appears to be something like that. And, again, we are not getting people excited. We may have some other equipment coming in from the states to, you know, research this a little bit more and get a better look at it.
But our divers are going in tomorrow. Hopefully, we can—we can get it and we can—we can bring it up. And, you know, it's—this whole thing is a process of elimination and we are just now trying to eliminate things. I mean, there was an area on land that we were excited about that truly looked like it could possibly be a fresh grave site. They took dogs up there. They showed some type of an interest and dug into it. And it was nothing. So, you know, there's a lot of highs and lows.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: You the—yes, you just never know, Tim.
What about Senator Richard Shelby, the senator from Alabama now talking about the U.S. Navy coming down and helping in the search. How big of a help would that be?
MILLER: Well, they have certainly got some equipment that we have asked for to put out in the waters. And that would make our life a lot of easier.
The sidescan sonar in the rough waters didn't work as well as we wished it would have worked. But it did pick some things up that we are interested in. And we are going to dive it. So, additional equipment we are bringing in. And, you know, we have got a lot of work to do yet. And there is a lot of frustrations on the searchers' part.
At the end of the day, they feel like they didn't accomplish anything. And we have just got to let them know what a wonderful a job they have done, because we know we're not—Natalee is not at. And, as long as we know where she is not at, there is still that very, very slim chance she is alive out there.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes.
MILLER: So, we have not given hope up on that. It is hard to hold on to, of course.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Yes.
MILLER: But...
SCARBOROUGH: But you just can't do it. You can't give up hope, Tim, because, as you know better than anybody else, it's a process of elimination.
Tim Miller, thanks so much for being with us tonight. Greatly appreciate all of your work down there. And we are going to stay on top of this story...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: ... and go back to you tomorrow. Let's hope we get some news that we can pass along to the American people that will finally bring some closure to this case.
MILLER: Thank you so much.
SCARBOROUGH: Now, I have got to tell you, let's move from Aruba and go out to Idaho.
Earlier today, Steven Groene spoke about his daughter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GROENE: You know, it's certainly more than we could have hoped for.
She's very upbeat. Seems to be pretty healthy. And she's really glad to be home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: That was Steven Groene, of course, as I said.
He's the father of 8-year-old Shasta talking about how his little girl is doing after more than six weeks of captivity in the clutches of a beast. I mean, this guy is a beast. He is a convicted sex fiend. Joseph Duncan, this guy raped a 14-year-old boy. He raped a 6-year-old boy. A judge in North Dakota lets him go, $15,000 bail, $15,000. Raped two boys and this guy walks free.
And because of this lenient judge, because he was allowed to walk on the street, of course, we may find out—and I believe we are going to find out, friends—that he had three, possibly four people murdered, and one little girl raped repeatedly by this beast.
Now, Steven Groene talked more than just about his daughter's condition at the press conference today. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GROENE: This needs to stop here. People like this should not be allowed out in public. There's been so many times I've seen the local news about the bulletins about sex offenders being released into the community and they're described as level three sex offenders with a high likelihood to re-offend. That's unacceptable. Totally unacceptable. People need to get on their congressmen, their senators, and even the president that this needs to change now.
And as far as the family's concerned, we all need time to be able to grasp this. This is so incomprehensible, that it's going to take quite a lot of time for us to even really start to realize what's happened here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: Coming up, we're going to find out exactly why this sex fiend was allowed to walk.
And, also, if you ever say to yourself, “What is wrong with America and whose fault is it?” I've got somebody who is going to tell you. This guy is not afraid to name names. He is Bernie Goldberg. He has got the number one book in America and he is here to tell us about the 100 people who are screwing up this country.
And, also, batten down the hatches. Hurricane season is already here with a vengeance. We're going to have a live report about Hurricane Dennis coming straight at my hometown of Pensacola again.
Stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: You may be asking yourself, what do all these people have in common? Well, one man says they are screwing up America. And he'll tell us why.
But, first, here is the latest news your family needs to know.
(NEWS BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: Yesterday, Joseph Duncan was facing a judge. Now he could face the death penalty.
I want to turn right now to legal expert Stacey Honowitz. She's an assistant state attorney for sex crimes and child abuse in Miami.
And, Stacey, I have got to ask you one question. The question is, how does a beast like this get out on the streets. He rapes two boys and bail is set at $15,000? What do we need to do in America to protect our children, to keep these people off the streets?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Joe, I mean, that question, everybody wants to know, why was he out? People don't know why he was out, other than the fact that the judge has said he didn't have all of this criminal history of...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: But it happens. Stacey, it happens all the time. These guys always get out.
HONOWITZ: I mean, we are sitting here all the time, every—you are exactly right. We are sitting here month after month with these sex offenders. They are out on the street. They are abducting kids.
I have said this many times. The sentencings need to be lengthy. They need to be life sentences. These guys cannot be rehabilitated. There is no chance for them, other than being behind bars. You have seen...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Stacey, it always seems that they are repeat...
HONOWITZ: Month after month, we're sitting here with a high-profile case.
SCARBOROUGH: you're right.
And you know what? Month after month, it's a high-profile case. A lot of people out there may say, you know what? There is no way we could have told you that they were going to be sexual offenders. Yes, we can, because we are usually talking about repeat sex offenders.
HONOWITZ: Absolutely.
SCARBOROUGH: So, if you are sitting out in America, in middle America, and you are concerned about what the hell is happening with this country's judicial system, do you call Congress? Do you call your governor? Do you call your judges? What in the world do we do to fix this problem?
HONOWITZ: Well, I mean, you have to go to the top.
The legislature is the one that passes these laws. They decide on what sentences should be for what crimes. People have to be outraged. People have to say, I don't want this to happen anymore. God forbid it is going to be my child next. You see what we are going through.
And judges repeatedly—sometimes, they want to move dockets; sometimes, they want lower caseloads; sometimes, they want to work out plea negotiations. Cases like this need to be life sentences. There is no ifs, ands or buts. The sexual registration laws, everybody talks about sexual register—you know, register the sex offender. Why in the world would these guys go out, rape little kids and then decide they're going to register, so people know where they are? That is the most ridiculous thing in the world. They don't want to be caught.
SCARBOROUGH: Stacey...
(CROSSTALK)
HONOWITZ: They don't want to be found out.
SCARBOROUGH: You are exactly right.
Stacey Honowitz, thanks for being us with. We appreciate your insights.
It is stupid. They are not—they are absolutely not going to go out there and they are not going to register, especially when you have beasts that do what they did to Shasta, especially when you have beasts that do, of course, what happened to the young girl in Florida who was buried alive with her stuffed animal. I'll tell you what.
I want you to listen to this clip of Howard Dean.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And we're going to South Dakota and Oregon and Washington and Michigan! And then we're going to Washington, D.C., to take back the White House. Yes!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: I think we have all heard that before. That was, of course, Howard Dean in his infamous public implosion known as the Dean scream.
Dr. Dean is number 20 in the best-selling new book in the land, “100 People Who Are Screwing Up America.” It was written by my next guest, Emmy Award-winning reporter Bernard Goldberg.
Bernie, great to be with you.
This book, only out a couple days, it's number one. Tell us about it. Why did you write it? And why did you mention in the title of the book that Al Franken is number 37?
BERNARD GOLDBERG, AUTHOR, “100 PEOPLE WHO ARE SCREWING UP AMERICA”:
Well, let me tell you why I wrote it first.
Whatever your politics are out there, you had to have noticed over the years, over the recent years, that America has gotten nastier, less civil, more selfish and, most of all, I think, more vulgar. I mean, people walk down the street and they are dropping the F-bomb as if nobody is hearing them. And they don't care if people are hearing them.
And there is a tendency to believe that this stuff just happens, that societies evolve in a certain way and, as a result, it is really nobody's fault. Well, I say that is not true. It is somebody's fault. In this case, I am naming 100 people who I think are at fault for cheapening our culture. And I'm telling you, Joe...
SCARBOROUGH: And, of course, we have got a picture right now of Paris Hilton. You actually put her parents at number 100. I think that is a wonderful thing to do. Explain why you put Hilton's parents at number 100.
GOLDBERG: Well, I don't put Paris Hilton on the list, because that would have been way too easy.
But here's another thing we can all agree on, number 100 on the list, the worst parents in the United States of America, Rick and Kathy Hilton. I mean, if they gave out Nobel Prizes for the worst parents in America, these two would be on an airplane heading for Stockholm to pick up their medals.
(LAUGHTER)
GOLDBERG: I mean, could you imagine—could you imagine if you were the parent of this—of this young woman? I mean, I don't even think an explanation is needed. She's as bad as it gets in this country.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, Bernie, the thing is that gets me about them is that they seem to be very proud of their daughter's exploits. I'll tell you what. My parents would not be talking to me if I did half the stuff this woman did.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDBERG: If they were my parents, I wouldn't be talking to them.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes, unbelievable.
Now, in your book, you write number 85 is—quote—“the dumb celebrity.” A short list includes Cameron Diaz.
GOLDBERG: Right. Right.
SCARBOROUGH: Fred Durst of Limp Bizkit, Kate Hudson, Margaret Cho and Janeane Garofalo. Number 84 is called the vicious celebrity. You list Alec Baldwin, Wallace Shawn, Sean Penn and Janeane Garofalo.
And number 83, titled the dumb and vicious celebrity, you list Linda Ronstadt, Martin Sheen, David Clennon, Janeane Garofalo.
Why you are picking on our good friend Janeane Garofalo?
GOLDBERG: Because she gives me too much ammunition.
(LAUGHTER)
GOLDBERG: Hollywood is a very important place in our culture, obviously.
And it is a place, like universities, that are run by liberals. Nobody argues that. And, out in Hollywood, they don't see conservatives simply as being wrong, which would be fine with me. They see conservatives as being repugnant. They see conservatives being Nazis and fascists.
And John Leo, the wonderful columnist for “U.S. News & World Report” -
· he's just a great writer, and, even more importantly, a great thinker—did a column once where he Googled “Bush is a Nazi” and he came up with 420,000 hits. And then he Googled “Hitler was a Nazi,” and he got a lot more. He got about 700,000 hits, except, as he puts it, Hitler was a Nazi and he had a 75-year head start.
(LAUGHTER)
GOLDBERG: So, I don't think these people, who—who, by the way, think they are smart simply because they are famous, I don't think they are adding much to the conversation by being as mean-spirited and nasty as they are.
SCARBOROUGH: Bernie, you know, you are a self-described—well, you are not a self-described liberal, but you voted for Democrats your entire life. And yet...
GOLDBERG: Well, no, not my—not my entire life, not my recent life.
SCARBOROUGH: Most of your life. Right.
GOLDBERG: My earlier life.
SCARBOROUGH: But most of your life.
But you certainly go after Hollywood liberals. You go after liberals in publishing, but you also go after conservatives. Name us a few.
GOLDBERG: Well, I will tell you, I go after one radio talk show host, not Rush Limbaugh, who I think is very civil and I think he's a very decent guy, but a radio talk show host—you can see who it is when you get the book—who just crosses the line. I mean, it is one thing to be a conservative talk show host. And, frankly, I agree with many of the things he says.
But when everybody is a stupid idiot whom he disagrees with, I don't think that is a good thing. Another one...
SCARBOROUGH: You also go after preachers.
GOLDBERG: I go after one who said that, if a gay guy looked at me funny, I would kill him and tell God he died by accident.
You know, I don't think that's—that is not—not only is it not funny. We don't need that kind of thing.
But I went after one conservative judge, and I'm going to try to speak truth to power here, because I know some conservatives really disagree with me on this one.
SCARBOROUGH: You talking about Roy Moore?
GOLDBERG: Judge Roy Moore of Alabama, the judge who argued that the Ten Commandments should be—the monument should be outside the courthouse in—the Supreme Courthouse in Alabama, Montgomery.
I make the point that I am not arguing whether the Ten Commandments should or shouldn't be there. That is—reasonable people can disagree on that. But here is what we can't disagree about. Conservatives are always yelling, correctly, I think, about liberal judicial activism. Well, here is a case where a federal judge, a judge superior to this judge told him that he had to do something. He had to take the Ten Commandments, move the monument out.
And he said, no, I know better. I am not doing it. Well, Joe, you or I or any of the people listening to us, we could commit civil disobedience if we really believe in something and then suffer the consequences. But a judge can't.
SCARBOROUGH: Exactly.
GOLDBERG: A judge can't.
SCARBOROUGH: As individuals. You are right, Bernie. As individuals, we can do that. But, if you are a judge, you have got to follow what judges above you say.
GOLDBERG: Right.
SCARBOROUGH: And if you don't like it, then quit.
I want to ask you, Bernie. Something fascinated me. Now, I read “New York” magazine from time to time when I am in the city. And I understand that America's new sweetheart is Diane Sawyer. And yet, you list Diane Sawyer...
(LAUGHTER)
SCARBOROUGH: You are gagging. You put Diane Sawyer in your top 100.
Tell us why.
GOLDBERG: Yes.
I knew Diane at CBS and she was a very nice person. And I'm sure she is a very nice person today. But she did—she represents a problem with television news today. And that is not the bias part. I have written about that in the past. I don't write about bias at all in this book—but about turning news into entertainment.
She did one of the dumbest hours in the history of television. She did an hour with Britney Spears. And it was as if she wasn't interviewing Henry Kissinger.
I mean, you know the way Diane talks: Britney, tell me about Justin.
Tell me about Justin? This is Diane Sawyer. She used to cover the State Department for CBS News. She actually asked her at one point, she asked her about—she said, Britney, tell me about your world-famous bottom.
SCARBOROUGH: Oh, nice.
GOLDBERG: I mean, how could you—how could you not be embarrassed by that?
SCARBOROUGH: You know what?
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDBERG: By the way, Diane Sawyer is big enough that she doesn't have to do it. She doesn't have to do that.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes.
You know, Bernie, that is a penetrating question, which we are going to be getting to in the next segment.
(LAUGHTER)
SCARBOROUGH: Bernie Goldberg, thanks a lot. The book is “100 People Who Are Screwing Up America.” It is number one on Amazon.com. If you don't believe me, go there and buy your own copy. I'll tell you, I'm getting it tomorrow.
Thanks for being with us, Bernie.
Now, coming up next, hurricane season is starting early. And I'll tell you what. The storms are coming and they are coming directly at me. We are going to be looking at Hurricane Dennis heading straight for the Florida Panhandle. And it looks like it is going to be a record-setting, devastating season.
And, later, reporter Judy Miller is in jail tonight just to protect a source. I am going to tell you what that means for you and me and why I'm so disturbed by it and why you should be, too, in tonight's “Real Deal.”
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: Tropical Storm Cindy has walloped the Gulf Coast with rain up to four inches.
And I got to tell you what, friends. Right now, we are keeping a watchful eye on Dennis. This hurricane season is going to be devastating. And the one that is coming right now is heading straight for us. We hear it may be hurricane—a level three to five.
With me now to talk about the hurricane season ahead, the dangerous hurricane season ahead, is Randy Hammer. She is the executive editor of “The Pensacola News Journal,” also the editor of “Ivan's Wake,” which has some extraordinary pictures from last year's devastating Hurricane Ivan.
Randy, talk to us about this hurricane that is coming towards us, but, more importantly, how people in Florida still have not recovered from Ivan and the devastation that it brought us last fall.
RANDY HAMMER, “THE PENSACOLA NEWS JOURNAL”: Yes, it is hard to believe that this is happening to us. We are just now beginning to recover from Ivan, which was 10 months ago.
And now we have already had two tropical storms and now a Category 3 and some people are saying it could even be more than that headed on the same path as Ivan. And it's—it will be devastating for us. We had 75,000 homes that were damaged in Ivan. That was 46 percent of the homes in the Pensacola Bay area. We still have thousands of homes that have tarps over their roofs. We are still in the process of rebuilding. So, this is—you know, this is not good at all. And...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Well, Randy, you can look at the physical structures, Randy.
But also the people that I talk to, I know the people that you talk to, not only in Pensacola, but across Northwest Florida, they have lost businesses that they have built up their entire life.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: And emotionally, psychologically, they are still devastated.
I know a lot of people that still have not moved back into their homes. They are still fighting insurance companies. And now another storm comes. How does a community recover?
HAMMER: Well, I don't know.
But having another hurricane like this isn't the way to go about it. And, you know, it was—well, you were here for the Fourth of July. In fact, you broadcast from downtown Pensacola. And we had this great Blue Angels show. People were finally beginning to feel as if we were getting back to normal. And this—the mood in town right now is—everybody is depressed and scared. That's the main thing. People are just scared.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, I'll tell you what.
We were—I was looking up today as I walked out, walked out to do a pretape this afternoon. And I looked up to the skies. Of course, we were having the remnants of Cindy leaving. And there was just this ominous feeling. And you are exactly right. You look around. Everybody is still devastated.
I want to show live pictures. Can we get live pictures of Hurricane Dennis right now? Oh, I'm sorry. It is a map. We're going to show you a map.
Here is Hurricane Dennis. And it's coming up—obviously, coming up on Cuba.
Randy, I understand this path again projected to come into the Gulf Coast. How powerful will it be by the time it reaches landfall, according to projections?
HAMMER: Well, right now, they are saying a Category 3, somewhere around 140 mile-per-hour winds. They are saying it will get here sometime on Monday. We are still five days out.
A lot can happen. I mean, really, everybody from Texas to Tallahassee, Florida, needs to be watching this. But, you know, it's a serious storm. It's building. And, you know, the next five days are—anything could happen. But, right now, what we're hearing is, is that it's going to get stronger. It's going to get stronger.
(CROSSTALK)
HAMMER: And we're—the other thing, Joe, is, we are only five weeks into the six-month hurricane season.
SCARBOROUGH: That's the thing, Randy.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. I mean, these things never hit in the middle of summer. And yet, we are getting walloped.
HAMMER: Yes.
SCARBOROUGH: Now, we're showing still pictures right now of “Ivan's Wake,” a book you put together. Tell us about that.
(CROSSTALK)
HAMMER: During the—in the aftermath of the storm, we took more than 2,000 photographs that were—we ran in the newspaper, as well as our Web site, pensacolanewsjournal.com. And during that period, our Web site normally averages about 100,000 a day. And we recorded 90 million page views in a two-week period.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Ninety million?
HAMMER: Yes. We were averaging somewhere between...
SCARBOROUGH: That's unbelievable.
HAMMER: ... 12 to 13 million page views a day. These—the photographs tell the story in a way that words never can. I mean, the images that—when we all walked out the next morning, nobody could believe what we saw. And...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Randy, I will tell you what. It was just...
(CROSSTALK)
HAMMER: This is a Category 3. This is just a Category 3.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Again, Category 3, which we may be facing, Florida may be facing again in a few days.
Randy Hammer, thanks so much for being with us.
If you want to see more of these photos that 90 million people saw last fall, you can go to IvansWake.com.
Randy Hammer, thanks a lot.
We will be back in a second with my “Real Deal.”
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: Reporters are getting sent to jail for not snitching out their sources. Now, you may be smiling because you hate reporters, but let me tell you what, friends. It endangers American democracy. And I'll tell you why in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: Americans lost their best check on corrupt politicians today, and they don't even know it. It's time for tonight's “Real Deal.”
Now, federal Judge Thomas Hogan sent “New York Times” reporter Judy Miller to jail today for refusing to divulge the name of a source who outed an undercover CIA agent. While the media is focusing on how Miller's jailing is going to impact American journalism, I'm a lot more concerned with how the decision is going to undermine good government in D.C.
As somebody who worked in the back rooms of Congress, I know government corruption and political misdeeds are usually revealed by unnamed sources anonymously passing must-know information to a reporter. Why wouldn't an informant have the courage to reveal the source of—in an important story?
Well, there are a lot of reasons. But I'm going to give you one. Soon after the attempted coup of Newt Gingrich, a lot of congressional leaders behaved very badly. Those who knew the true story of that ugly chapter in congressional history thought it was important to let Americans know how their leaders behaved when nobody was looking. I gave the inside story to two reporters. The story got out and those leaders never recovered.
So, why couldn't I have just said, hey, I'm the source? Well, because Washington is an unforgiving place and I would have been crushed by the Republican leadership. Now, that would have made me look like a good government martyr, but it also would have had a devastating impact on my constituents, who depend on me. To reveal my name in those stories would have been reckless, but to remain silent would have been immoral.
And, you know, my story is repeated in Washington 100 times a day.
And because of it, we've got own of the cleanest governments in the world. That's going to change now that Judy Miller is in jail and “TIME” magazine is acting shamelessly by turning on confidential sources.
Listen, government whistler-blowers face a brave new world. And it's a world where champions of good government are silenced and reporters who speak truth to power are jailed.
Good job, Judge Hogan.
We'll see you tomorrow night.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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