updated 7/14/2005 10:32:14 AM ET 2005-07-14T14:32:14

Guest: Robert Schultz, Tom O'Neil, Lisa Salvati, Mickey Sherman, Lisa

Bloom, Julia Renfro, Carl Bernstein, Bob Woodward

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Tonight's top headline: breaking news out of Aruba.  Sources suggest explosive new details from eyewitnesses in the Natalee Holloway case. 

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, No passport required, only common sense allowed. 

Could the prime suspect in Natalee Holloway's disappearance walk? 

We're live in Aruba with the late developments. 

And, in a SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY showdown, America's top lawyers battle over the case against Joran van der Sloot. 

A wealthy couple, a storybook wedding and a honeymoon cruise in one of the most beautiful places on Earth.  Now the groom is missing and there's blood on the ship and in their honeymoon cabin.  What happened that night?  We get all the details of this mystery in the Mediterranean. 

Then, cover the kids' eyes, because this is what they're showing them on TV.  From scantily clad singers to sexy single moms, TV has gotten too hot for TV.  Now we ask, what's next? 

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  Good evening.

We take you around the world tonight with a packed show, from Aruba, to a possible murder mystery on the Mediterranean, to a presidential favorite appearing in a hormone-driven teen flick.

And, in a few minutes, Pulitzer Prize-winning reporters Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein will be here to talk about what they're calling one of the greatest threats to American democracy. 

But, first, let's get the latest from Aruba, where we're going to learn tomorrow whether the key suspect in the Natalee Holloway case will walk or be thrown back in jail.

Let's go live right now to NBC's Michelle Kosinski.  She's in Aruba tonight. 

Michelle, give us the very latest.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Well, now we're only a couple hours away really from finding out the judges' pleasure in these five appeals that were before them. 

Most importantly, the prosecutors want the Kalpoe brothers put back in jail.  And Joran van der Sloot's attorneys want him out of jail.  Yesterday, we talked a little bit about new evidence we found out was presented yesterday before these judges by prosecutors.  Now we know that evidence was in the form of witness statements, some new statements by witnesses that was added to the material in this case. 

Here's the thing, though.  Prosecutors were required to put forward everything they had before these appeals court judges.  So, just because they have new witness statements doesn't mean it necessarily adds significantly to their case.  And that's the sort of thing that we've been hearing from other attorneys. 

The attorneys for the suspect say, hey, this stuff doesn't pertain to my client.  It doesn't really add to the case.  We've heard it all before.

So, that all remains to be seen.  And, of course, the judges are going to be the ones who have to decide just what this means to the case.  And we're expected to hear that decision at 2:00 in the afternoon tomorrow. 

Now, all this has been hard on the family.  In fact, you know, the best-case scenario for them, they say, is for all three of these suspects to be behind bars. 


BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  I know—I definitively know those three individuals have involvement with her disappearance, yes.  And—yes.  And I—as her mother, I can say is a crime committed against my daughter.


KOSINSKI:  We found out a little bit more today, too. 

What will it take for prosecutors to get their way and have these Kalpoe brothers put back in jail?  Well, just like in our legal system, there's always a benchmark at certain parts of the investigation.  Early on, to make an arrest, it's a reasonable suspicion.  Later on, for a conviction, we need beyond a reasonable doubt.  For a civil case, it's a preponderance of the evidence.  You know those benchmarks. 

Well, in this legal system, the judges will have to see that there's a serious suspicion and that there's sufficient evidence that's there for these boys to be put back behind bars.  They'll have to show—they'll have to find evidence that will show that these boys did have some involvement.  So, we're going to wait and see tomorrow afternoon on that. 

Michelle, what are you hearing about these eyewitness accounts?  Are they eyewitness accounts placing these men at the scene of the crime or are they just eyewitness accounts regarding Joran's involvement with Natalee Holloway earlier in the evening? 

KOSINSKI:  Don't we wish we knew?  That's been the speculation.  Every since we found out that they were witness statements, the door pretty much snapped closed on us. 

In fact, it was tough to even get that information, as to what this new evidence was.  And, you know, it was tough to even find out that there was anything new presented.  rMDNM_Nobody—and our only sources, of course, here are attorneys.  And none of them want to talk about this evidence, because, obviously, it involves somebody.  And it will affect some of these people, but they want to say right now, it doesn't affect my client. 

So, we may not know anything about these details until, you know, if and when there could be a conviction in this case. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Michelle, final question.  Is there a feeling in the prosecutor's office that they're going to be able to keep Joran in jail? 

KOSINSKI:  Well, we're hearing from pretty much all sides right now that things could very well stay status quo. 

But there have been other surprises in this case as well.  Bringing in Joran van der Sloot's father, putting him in jail, some people weren't expecting that.  Then the prosecutor's office let us know that he allegedly told all three of the boys that, without a body, there's no case.  That was sort of a surprise detail that we never expected to get. 

So, you never know.  And, at this point, nobody wants to say much, but, you know, we might not have any changes here.  The Kalpoes might stay out of jail.  And Joran might stay in.  But it's really anybody's guess right now.  The system is very quiet.   

SCARBOROUGH:  Very quiet, indeed.  Michelle, thank you so much for being with us.  Michelle Kosinski, as always, we greatly appreciate it. 

Now, friend, let me tell you, I'm going to give you some information right now.  It's information that you're not hearing on TV.  It's information that you haven't heard certainly in the court system.  Inside sources in this investigation tell me and have told me—and I found out earlier today that there are reports from people who are inside the bar that, actually, Natalee Holloway was approached twice by Joran van der Sloot.

Twice, he made passes towards her.  Twice, she rebuffed him.  The second time, she pushed him away.  And a friend of hers from Birmingham from the school hit him with a closed—or, I'm sorry—Joran hit Natalee Holloway with a closed fist.  Then this friend tried to walk in between the two and tried to stop him from aggressively going after her and suggested that he take it outside.  If he wanted to fight somebody, he should fight somebody his own size. 

It's going to be very interesting to see if that information comes out tomorrow in the court hearing, whether we find out, again, two times—and I'll tell you what.  This information, when I learned it today from somebody very close to the case, this information certainly changes what we've heard, which, early on, we heard, of course, that Natalee just jumped in the car and drove away. 

Obviously, Joran van der Sloot, according to these sources, aggressively went after her twice.  She tried to rebuff him two times.  The second time, he struck her.  We'll see whether that information comes out tomorrow. 

Now, as we heard from Michelle, tomorrow is potentially a decisive day in the search for the truth in this case.  With me now to talk about what people in Aruba are saying is the editor in chief of “Aruba Today,” Julia Renfro.

Julia, thank you so much for being with us tonight. 

What can you tell us about what Arubans on the street are saying?  Do they want to see Joran set free tomorrow?  Do they want to see the Kalpoe brothers stay out of jail?  Or do they want to see them, all three, thrown in jail? 

JULIA RENFRO, EDITOR IN CHIEF, “ARUBA TODAY”:  Well, right now, nobody is anticipating Joran being set free. 

Although, from our understanding, no actual new evidence was presented, as the prosecutor made us aware this afternoon that she didn't have to present anything new in order for the judge's appeal to make a decision.  It was basically based on the same information that the judge of instruction had on what and he the other two judges in Curacao are going to make their decision on. 

And, of course, Aruba supports that.  If the judges of appeal decide that the two Kalpoe brothers need to be back in jail, Aruba is 100 percent supportive with that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know—you know, Julia, a lot of people—we've been hearing a lot of Arubans have been angry at Natalee Holloway's family, believing that they've been too aggressive in seeking the truth.  What's the feeling right now?  Do you believe that most Arubans are now supportive of the family or do you think that was a gross overstatement?  That was just 200 people protesting? 

RENFRO:  It was not 200 people protesting.  It was 200 people demonstrating what Aruba was about, the friendliness of the island, that Aruba was turning into a welcome mat that was just being absolutely stepped on. 

No question about it.  I was there at the protest demonstration.  And it was all about, this is who we are.  This is our justice system.  We believe in our justice system.  Let it prevail. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Do you think, though—I mean, you say it wasn't a protest.  Do you—were there, though, many people there that were angry with Natalee Holloway's family and believed that the family was too aggressive? 

RENFRO:  No, it wasn't about that at all.  Absolutely not.  It was how it was being presented by different networks.  That's all it was about. 

Nobody was upset with Mrs. Twitty.  Everyone knows that she has missed her—missing her daughter.  And everyone feels for that.  Arubans have—all people have been out there looking, searching, crying and praying for the return of Natalee Holloway. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thank you so much, Julia Renfro.  We greatly appreciate you being with us tonight. 

RENFRO:  Thanks.

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, to preview tomorrow's hearing, let's discuss what we know about Joran van der Sloot. 

First of all, he said he left Natalee alive on the beach the night she went missing, that he was free for 10 days after Natalee disappeared, before being arrested on June the 9th.  That's why so many of us have been angry at the Aruban system.  Investigators removed evidence from his home a few days after his arrest.  Prosecutors say he was coached by his father.  Remember the famous “no body, no crime”?

And, also, Joran changed his story to police after the Kalpoes changed their story.  Joran is the only suspect still left in custody.  And prosecutors believe there's enough evidence to hold him there indefinitely. 

So, given that information, what might a case involving Joran look? 

With me now to talk about this tomorrow, an all-star legal duo, famed defense attorney Mickey Sherman and also Lisa Bloom, the famed Court TV anchor. 

I'd like to welcome both of you.

And, Lisa, let me start with you.  Prosecute this case. 

LISA BLOOM, COURT TV ANCHOR:  Look, Joran changed his story in a significant way. 

First, he said he left her at her hotel.  Then it turns out he went to the beach with her.  That's a significant change.  And then he leaves a young woman, 18 years old, alone on the beach in a foreign country at 2:00 a.m.  Are you kidding me?  These circumstances are so suspicious.

And, Joe, I take note of what you said, the information that you just revealed on your show, that he previously struck her.  If that's true, this is a man willing to cross the line, willing to actually physically assault a woman.  And why?  Because she rebuffed him.  Because she had the gall to say no to him.  I think the circumstances are highly suspicious against Joran van der Sloot. 

Why is his dad, a judge on the island, telling him, no body, no crime? 

If he's indeed innocent, I would expect his father to say, you're innocent. 

You have nothing to worry about. 

I think this is all very suspicious when you put it all together. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Mickey Sherman, defend him. 

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Well, of course it's suspicious.  That's why these guys are locked up. 

But I got to tell you, we in this country do not own the only recipe for justice.  I think we're being overly tough on the Aruba criminal justice system.  I think they're trying...

SCARBOROUGH:  They let him walk for 11 days. 

SHERMAN:  I think that...

SCARBOROUGH:  Let the chief suspect walk for 11 days, Mickey.  Come on.  If it were your daughter, you'd be going crazy. 

SHERMAN:  They're suspects, you know.

Anybody who is prosecuted should be—anywhere.  I don't care whether it's Aruba or in the United States or anyplace anywhere.  They should be prosecuted only if there's available, competent, credible evidence.  And we shouldn't backfill for that with moral outrage and our desperate need to solve the crime. 


SHERMAN:  And that's what we're talking about here.


CARLSON:  Mickey, Mickey, hold on a second.  Mickey, if it's your daughter, Mickey—Mickey, if it's was your daughter...


SCARBOROUGH:  She's seen leaving a bar with three suspects. 

SHERMAN:  Right.  Right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  They're allowed to roam for 11 days.  And, instead, they pick up two black guys who just happened to be in neighborhood at the time.


SCARBOROUGH:  You would be as angry as me.  You would be as angry as Natalee Holloway's mother.

SHERMAN:  And, by the way, I don't take issue with Natalee Holloway's mother.  I think she gets a free pass.  Her daughter is missing, very likely deceased.  So, she can say whatever she wants about anybody.  I think the Aruba folks have been very kind to her and they will continue to be kind.  And I don't have a problem with her criticizing the system. 

But this system isn't necessarily broken down.  I mean, what they did, they've been extraordinarily zealous.  This is a country whose 70 percent income in based on tourism. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Oh, come on, Mickey.


SHERMAN:  They locked up three guys.

SCARBOROUGH:  I'm going to—I'm going to let you explain that on the other side of the break. 

Extraordinarily zealous?

SHERMAN:  Yes.  They locked up three guys for nothing.

SCARBOROUGH:  It's like calling the Keystone Cops Sherlock Holmes. 

Come on. 

SHERMAN:  They locked up the suspect's father.

SCARBOROUGH:  For nothing?  OK, you're going to have to explain that to me on the other side of the break. 

Mickey, Lisa, stay with us.  We have a lot more when we come back. 

And, also, we have new information about an international mystery.  A Connecticut man on his honeymoon vanishes from a cruise ship.  Now a gruesome discovery that has jolted this investigation into overdrive.  They found blood in the cabin. 

Plus, they helped bring down a president years ago.  But, tonight, Woodward and Bernstein are in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to tell us about a threat to America that they say could be even greater than terrorism. 

Don't go away.  SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY is just getting started. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Amazing video.  A marlin fights back against a teen trying to reel him in.  And we are going to talk to somebody who saw it live and saw how the marlin speared the boy. 

That's when we return.



SCARBOROUGH:  That's the prime suspect in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, Joran van der Sloot. 

Let's go back to our all-star panel, Mickey Sherman and Lisa Bloom.

Lisa, Mickey said that the police officers have been incredibly diligent, that they drug in these three poor boys for no reason.  Respond. 

BLOOM:  Well, it just seems silly.  Let's use our common sense.

A girl is missing.  She's probably dead.  Joran van der Sloot says, she just volunteered to stay alone on the beach at 2:00 a.m. in Aruba.  Sure, that was fine with her.  He left her there.  And then I suppose she just threw herself into the sea, went so far out that the current swept her away and she was never seen again. 

Let's put together the fact that we have a missing girl, that the boy's story has changed several times on significant points, that it makes no sense at all, and that his father has essentially told him to keep quiet.  There's a lot here.  There's good reason to keep Joran van der Sloot in custody.  And that's what the courts are going to decide tomorrow. 

SHERMAN:  So the father should...


SCARBOROUGH:  Mickey, I got to ask you, if you got the father saying no body, no crime, you have got Joran van der Sloot changing his story three times, lying to the police, lying to investigators, he is the last one that is seen with her, I mean, come on. 

SHERMAN:  OK.  But, Joe...

SCARBOROUGH:  I mean, what else do you need for probable cause to throw the guy in jail? 

SHERMAN:  Yes, but what's the evidence that he has committed the crime, other than he lied and he's maybe not the nicest person and he listened to his lawyer, who happens to be his father's advice? 

You know, the father, they locked him up for, what, three to five days.  All he did was go over there, see his son, and tell him, don't make any incriminating statements.  That's what every lawyer in the world does.

SCARBOROUGH:  And get rid of the body.

BLOOM:  How about—how about punching her in the face, Mickey.  How about punching her in the face with a closed fist, as Joe just reported?

SHERMAN:  All right.  OK.  Fine.

BLOOM:  Isn't that significant? 

SHERMAN:  And that's the guy who just came forward.  Where has he been the last two weeks, on Mars?  I don't buy that.  This is some...

BLOOM:  Well, sometimes, witnesses take a while to come forward. 

SHERMAN:  No way.

BLOOM:  Sometimes they take years to come forward, especially in this kind of media glare. 


SHERMAN:  Not in the big case.


SCARBOROUGH:  Mickey, Mickey what about—you know what, Mickey?  I can't give you all the details here.  But I believe it's going to come out soon and you will understand why this person hasn't come forward.

But I have got to ask you again, I mean, again, this guy changes his story three times, and very suspicious. 

SHERMAN:  People do that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  He is the last—he is the last one seen at the—when she is going away.  Isn't that enough, even in the United States, to keep somebody in jail?  Just because there's not a body, why let him go?

BLOOM:  Why would an innocent person change his story?

SHERMAN:  Maybe.  Maybe, maybe not. 

The problem is, you still have to build a bridge between that conduct, which is suspicious, to the commission of a murder. 

BLOOM:  But, Mickey...

SHERMAN:  And it's not there.  You can't make chicken soup out of chicken feathers, no matter how much you want to do it.


SCARBOROUGH:  So, if you get rid of the body, if you get rid of the body, then you walk.  Is that what you are saying? 

BLOOM:  Why would an innocent person change his story, Mickey? 

SHERMAN:  People do it all the time. 

BLOOM:  Why not just tell the truth right from the beginning?

SHERMAN:  People do it all the time.  They are in custody.  They're nervous.  They make mistakes.  They are stupid.  That's what happens.

BLOOM:  Mickey, do you believe he left her alone on the beach in the middle of the night? 

SHERMAN:  Don't know.  Don't know. 

BLOOM:  And that that was consensual?  That's what she wanted.  Sure. 

An American girl...

SHERMAN:  Have no clue.

BLOOM:  ... 2:00 a.m. on an Aruban beach, why not? 

SHERMAN:  But I wouldn't put somebody away for life on...

BLOOM:  That's preposterous. 

SHERMAN: ... because I think that that's probably what happened.  You don't go to jail, you don't spend your life in jail because that's probably what happened.  You need credible, competent evidence.

BLOOM:  No.  But we're not talking about locking him up for life.  We're talking about keeping him in jail, keeping him answering questions from the police, because, eventually, one of these young men is going to crack. 

I think there's too many of them.  They are too young.  And there's too much pressure on them.  Eventually, the truth will come out, and the police need to continue to question them to get answers, because poor Beth Twitty and the remainder of the family is left alone in Aruba, trying to figure this out for themselves. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It's absolutely awful. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Lisa, I got to ask you a final question.  Do you believe that, in the end, if Joran followed his father's advice, if he was, in fact, involved and he got rid of the body, that eventually he is going to walk? 

BLOOM:  No, I don't, because I do have faith that the truth eventually comes out. 

You know, we see cold cases all the time on Court TV.  We are showing another one tomorrow; 29 years later, someone is being tried for murder.  Mickey Sherman knows well in the Skakel case...


BLOOM:  People can be tried many years later.  Eventually...

SHERMAN:  And you don't need a body.  You don't need a body for—to prove a murder.

BLOOM:  ... someone talks.  Eventually, evidence comes out. 

SHERMAN:  You don't need the body, but you need competent evidence. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thanks a lot, Mickey Sherman, Lisa Bloom. 

Greatly appreciate you being with us tonight. 

BLOOM:  Thanks, Joe. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Now, it was a June wedding for 26-year-old George Smith IV of—IV—I'm sorry—and 25-year-old Jennifer Hagel.  For their honeymoon, the couple went on a European cruise.  That left from Spain on June 29. 

Now, six days left, the honeymoon was over.  That day, George Smith was reported missing just before the ship docked in Turkey.  Now there's a report that authorities believe there was foul play. 

With us now, we have Lisa Salvati, a reporter with NBC station WVIT in Hartford.

And, Lisa, let me ask you, get us up to date on what's going on.  The Associated Press reporting blood in the cabin.  It sounds like the possibility of a murder mystery.  What do you know? 

LISA SALVATI, WVIT REPORTER:  Well, the Associated Press was reporting that there was blood in the cabin.

But we know, according to the cruise ship, that blood was found on a mental awning just below the couple's cabin.  Now, let me just recap the events that led to this.  George Smith and Jennifer Hagel are both from Connecticut.  They went on their honeymoon on June 29 on board the Royal Caribbean's Brilliance of the Seas.  It's a Mediterranean cruise ship that left Barcelona, Spain. 

Now, on July 5, about halfway into their cruise, is when his wife reported him missing.  She had told cruise ship security that she had gotten up that morning, did not see him, went to the gym, came back. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Wait a second.  They are on a honeymoon.  And she is telling authorities that her husband didn't come home that night?  I say home.  Didn't come back to the cabin? 

SALVATI:  She had told authorities that she had gotten up that morning and went to the gym.  She did not see him in the cabin, came back.  And that is when she reported him missing. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, what are authorities doing right now?  Are they starting to...

SALVATI:  Well...

SCARBOROUGH:  Are they interrogating her? 

SALVATI:  Well, at that point—first, they thought he fell overboard.  And, for four days, they searched the waters between Greece and Turkey.  The International Coast Guard did, came up with nothing. 

And that's—then a passenger reported that there was blood found on that awning just below the couple's cabin.  The FBI is now investigating.  Now, she was interrogated in Turkey by Turkish authorities on July 5, when she reported him missing.  She was released.  She stayed in Turkey that night and then flew home to Connecticut the next day. 

Now, I tried to reach the family yesterday.  The family member who answered basically said no comment and hung up. 

SCARBOROUGH:  What can you tell us about this man?  What can you tell us about George?  What can you tell us about the woman? 

SALVATI:  Well, George Smith grew up in Greenwich, Connecticut.  I was down there yesterday.  And, as you can imagine, the mood is very somber down there.  The family is well known in Connecticut.  They own a liquor store.  For many years, they have owned this store. 

I spoke to a worker there.  And, basically, what he said, they are devastated, and all they can do is pray.  And I think not knowing what happened to this man, not finding a body, searching the waters.  I mean, all this is making it even more difficult on the family.  I also spoke to his middle school principal, who had kept up with him over the years.

And he had gone into the liquor store to buy his wine and always talked to the father and would actually see George Smith IV there with him.  And he just couldn't say enough about him, that he was, as a young kid, such a good kid. 

SCARBOROUGH:  We have heard he is a great guy, a terrible tragedy. 

Lisa, thank you so much for being with us. 

Of course, we are going to be following this story.  Again, the Associated Press reporting that blood was found in their cabin, their honeymoon cabin, certainly a dream cruise turned to a Mediterranean nightmare. 

Now, with a “New York Times” reporter behind bars tonight for refusing to reveal his source, there's no better time to talk to Woodward and Bernstein about the source they kept secret for more than 30 years and what they think about today's sore subject. 

Then, undress for success?  More and more channels with women wearing less and less.  Well, and there you have Jessica Simpson going from self-professed teenage virgin to the next Britney Spears.  Why are they doing it? 

Well, we will talk about that when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 


SCARBOROUGH:  In a minute, we follow up on an AOL story this morning on sleaze TV, talking about how networks are having to resort to sex, drugs, and violence to sell their shows.  The question is, how far will TV go to keep up with “The Sopranos.”  That's next.

But, first, here's the latest news you and your family need to know. 


SCARBOROUGH:  You are looking at a scene from “All the President's Men,” talking about the illusive Deep Throat meeting with “Washington Post” reporter Bob Woodward in a D.C. parking garage. 

Now that the best secret in Washington, Deep Throat's identity, is out, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, who protected their source for all these years, are finally talking.  They join us tonight to talk about the source who helped them bring down a president and some issues that are more important today than ever. 

Bob Woodward has just written “The Secret Man: The Story of Watergate's Deep Throat.”  And Carl Bernstein contributed to the book with a reporter's assessment. 

I spoke with them tonight and started by asking about “New York Times” reporter Judy Miller, who is sitting in a jail cell tonight because she refused to reveal a source. 


BOB WOODWARD, AUTHOR, “THE SECRET MAN”:  Judy Miller should not be in jail.  I think the judge and the special prosecutor in this alleged CIA leak case made a mistake. 

It's really vital to have confidential sources.  I think Judy Miller is doing the right thing.  And I think she should be freed and they should reconsider this.  You will chill everyone from talking to reporters if they can't be guaranteed, if there is not some sort of safety position that, yes, I can tell you what's really going on, but don't disclose my identity. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, Bob, you understand that as well as anybody.  I mean, you know, when I was in Congress, I talked to reporters off the record all the time, gave them context of what was going on, helped them get their story forward.  It helped me as a public official get my message out, too. 

WOODWARD:  And you probably...


SCARBOROUGH:  I was going to say, who is going to talk to “TIME” magazine and do that moving forward? 

WOODWARD:  Well, I hope people still will, but that's right.

And you probably said, as a congressman, things on background or off the record to people that were real and true, but you did not dare say those with your name behind them.  And that's the point.  You have got to have that lifeline. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And, Carl, can you explain why that is so important?  So many people in Washington don't understand that, if you work for an administration that you believe is taking a disastrous course, or if you are, as I was, under Newt Gingrich, when Newt Gingrich was going, I thought, astray, you can't come out and say, you know what, Newt Gingrich or Bush, they are making terrible mistakes, because there are ramifications, not just for you personally, but also for your district or for your department. 

What—how have things changed now that we have got judges throwing reporters in jail for doing, again, what you did for three decades? 

CARL BERNSTEIN, AUTHOR/JOURNALIST:  I think one of the things that's changed is that we are in the middle of a culture war, and that, unfortunately, the question of the role of the press has become part of that culture war.

And, very often, Republicans particularly and people on the right and this administration like to make the conduct of the press the issue, rather than the conduct of public officials or the president the issue.  And it's...


SCARBOROUGH:  Carl, though, you know, every administration didn't love

·         hold on, Carl.  The Clinton administration hated the press. 

BERNSTEIN:  Absolutely. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Every bit as much as the Bush administration. 

BERNSTEIN:  Absolutely.  Absolutely. 

But, at the same time, they recognized the principle of the right of a reporter to confidentiality.  What I am suggesting is that, like yourself, Republicans ought to get up and say, this woman doesn't belong in jail.  We believe in a free, unfettered press that allows all of us to talk under any circumstances that we want to, background, on the record, off the record, and enough of this.  We don't want to see reporters in jail. 

And the Republicans ought to be the first to get up and say it, because, you know, there's going to be a case, like there was in the Clinton White House, when Republicans want to take things to reporters, and the sources are going to be in a terrible position, as are the reporters, if we have these prosecutors going after us. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It is an awful, awful precedent.  I didn't go to journalism school at Colombia, but it seems fairly obvious to me that “TIME” magazine breached just a basic, basic precept of journalistic ethics.  Are you willing to say they did that? 

WOODWARD:  Well, you know, I don't know their—I happen to agree with Carl.  I don't know all the facts.  The people who made that decision are normally people of conscience. 

I think they made a serious mistake, and they should not have done this.  And, at the end of the road, what is the big threat?  What's the big problem?  Why do we report on things like Watergate or decisions to go to war in Iraq or what is going on in government or government corruption?  And the thing that will defeat this country is secret government.  If a group of people can ever get together and say, we are going to really stop the flow of accurate behind-the-scenes information, then we will have secret government.

And that's a problem that may be worse than a difficult economy or even terrorism.  And that is what—that is, in the end, what we are fighting.  And people who are doing this, investigating, sending reporters to jail, I think are being very shortsighted. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, Ron Brownstein of “The L.A. Times” said of “The Secret Man,” it explains who, what, when, and where, but not why, why did Mark Felt do what he did.

Do you want to respond to that?

WOODWARD:  I don't think Ron read the book. 


WOODWARD:  Quite frankly, I don't know what he was doing that day, but I don't think he was reading, quite frankly. 


WOODWARD:  Look, the why is laid out.  There was all this law-breaking going on in the Nixon administration.  The number two man in the FBI didn't like it.  He was also disappointed that he didn't get to be director.

But  look at who they put in as acting director, L. Patrick Gray, who destroyed evidence that the White House gave him, turned over the investigative files of the FBI, something totally unheard of. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Bob, what do you think is going to happen with Karl Rove? 

WOODWARD:  The evidence I have seen—but, you know, you can't really predict with any soundness, I suspect he was involved in trying to discredit Joe Wilson, the ambassador.  But I don't think—I haven't seen any evidence of a crime yet.

But, you know, this special prosecutor has been working for two years.  Two years is an eternity in this business.  One year into Watergate, you know, my God, John Dean had pled guilty.  This is—he was Nixon's White House counsel, was testifying against the president.  We had learned about the secret taping system.  Dozens of people had resigned and were on their way to jail. 

In this case of the CIA leak, I don't know—fundamentally, I don't know whether anyone committed a crime. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Carl, I will ask you the same thing.  How do you think it ends? 

BERNSTEIN:  The—I think we are in a terrible partisan atmosphere, a culture war the likes of which we have never seen. 

I have got here these Republican National Committee talking points on Joe Wilson that somebody sent me a little bit surreptitiously.  And they really call for a take-no-prisoners approach of smearing the other side.  And the other side does the same thing, too.  I think we are in a place in our political culture that is ruinous.  More energy and intellectual activity goes into undermining the other party than undermining the terrorists in this town.

And it's the truth.  It's a simple truth.  It is a terrible, terrible thing.  And sooner or later, the people of this country are going to get sick of both parties doing this, because our system isn't working because of this kind of partisan activity on both sides.  It's a disgrace. 

WOODWARD:  Yes.  And can I just second that? 

What—the confirmation process and some of these investigations have become instruments of character assassination.  And if you really look, yes, there can be differences.  There can be disagreements.  You can vote somebody up or vote somebody down.  But the idea that this has to become the war of the worlds about who is going to sit on the Supreme Court or who is going to be the U.N. ambassador and so forth has reached a point...

BERNSTEIN:  Or legislation. 


BERNSTEIN:  Domestic legislation. 

WOODWARD:  It is a form of insanity that people will look back on some day and say, what was going on in America?  What was...

BERNSTEIN:  While we're fighting terrorists.

WOODWARD:  Yes.  That's right. 

BERNSTEIN:  That our system can't even deal with our own problems. 


SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thanks a lot.  Greatly appreciate it, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein.  Thanks for coming to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY tonight. 

Now from journalistic giants to McCain's star turn.  John McCain gets a cameo in a racy new flick, “Wedding Crashers.”  Did the lure of Hollywood stardom make him change his tune on sleaze politics? 

And, later, there's something fishy going on out there.  A 600-pound marlin attacks a teenager.  And we have got video to prove it. 



SCARBOROUGH:  Self-professed teen virgin Jessica Simpson appears to be following the lead of another formerly self-professed virgin, Britney Spears, and socialite Paris Hilton, who of course no one ever accused of being a virgin, all of them selling sex for profit. 

It's a sign of our times.  AOL ran a front-page poll today on sleaze TV.  And we ask why networks and cable outlets are resorting to sex, drugs, and violence to sell their shows.  With the booming success of cable channels like HBO, the question is, how far must broadcast and cable TV go to keep up with “The Sopranos”? 

With me now to talk about it, MSNBC entertainment editor Dana Kennedy and also Tom O'Neil, senior editor for “In Touch Weekly.” 

Dana, let me start with you.

I just want to say right off the top, because every time we do a segment like this, people say, man, why is Scarborough so shocked?  I am not shocked.  But it is a sign of our times.  We hear a year ago that HBO is doing so well with shows like “The Sopranos” that network TV is going to have to catch up.  But, I mean, there's a big difference between HBO and public airwaves.  How far do we go here? 

DANA KENNEDY, NBC ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR:  Well, I personally hope we don't go too far.

But I think that the horse is definitely already out of the barn, Joe.  And I will point out that some of those shows that you are talking about on HBO like “Sex and the City,” “The Sopranos,” they are really well-written shows. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Great shows. 

KENNEDY:  So, if you're seeing something shocking on those shows or something highly sexual, the thing is, you get so much else for your money, basically.  They're so well done.  And, oftentimes, I would argue that the shocking stuff in those shows or the sexual stuff in those shows is truthful, whereas a lot of the stuff you see on broadcast or on other cable shows, like “The Surreal Life,” just to use one particular reality show...

SCARBOROUGH:  Oh, God.  Please, save me. 

WOODWARD:  It's just gratuitous.  It's just like anyone who has a camera.

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, and the thing is, you say letting a horse out of a barn.  I would like to say letting something else out of a barn that sounds like horse. 

Let's talk about Jessica Simpson for a second.  I mean, we saw it with Paris.  We saw it with Britney.  We're seeing it with Christina Aguilera.  We've seen it with everybody.  I mean, is this the only way to sell a record these days? 

KENNEDY:  Well, it's one big way to sell a record.

And I really think it's a mistake.  You know, Joe, I don't normally come on here and pontificate too far on the right, as you know.  But I really—those—the Christian group that has come out and said that Jessica has become another singing stripper, like Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera, I could not agree more. 

I think it's really a mistake.  I mean, Jessica is beautiful.  She has a beautiful voice.  She doesn't need to go to this point.  She is also, I would argue, potentially throwing her career away.  Madonna is one of the few people I know who could come out and do all that raunchy stuff and be smart enough to reinvent herself 10 years later as a housewife. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Still—still—still reinventing herself.  Yes. 

KENNEDY:  Yes.  I mean...

SCARBOROUGH:  Time and time again.  And she even picked up a British accent, God bless her. 

Tom O'Neil, let me ask you about what's happening on TV.  AOL runs a poll on sleaze TV, a lot of people concerned.  Any reason to be concerned or this just a natural evolution? 

TOM O'NEIL, SENIOR EDITOR, “IN TOUCH WEEKLY”:  It's a natural evolution. 

And if we look overseas to Europe, where this might be headed, they have complete nudity right now on television.  So, is that what we can look forward to?  If you look at the top 20 grossing films of this year, only four of them were G or PG.  We want our entertainment more raunchy than we admit, I think. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Wait.  I thought we were a puritanical nation.  I mean, that's what we learned from the election in 2004.

O'NEIL:  Yes, but look at our movie trends, for example, and look at what we export around the world, which are R-rated movies and PG-13 films. 

I think the next big test we face as a nation in terms of this strict moral code in entertainment industry begins on September 7.  It's the least talked-about thing.  That's when the Justice Department begins prosecuting Web sites for having lascivious photos.  We could be seeing the sex photos being pulled off the Internet as part of what's called paragraph 2257 of the Child Protection and Obscenity Enforcement Act.  So, let's see how this really goes soon. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, I mean, and if that's the case, let me just say, Hardee's and Carl's Jr. in big trouble. 

Now, speaking of sleaze, Dana, some time back, you had Senator John McCain out of Arizona talking about how moviemakers need to elevate themselves, tell the great stories in American history.  And yet we hear that he is going to be in Owen Wilson's new movie and Vince Vaughn's new movie, “Wedding Crashers,” rated R, raunchy, basically aimed at teenage kids.

KENNEDY:  Oh, definitely, for sure. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Hypocrisy? 

KENNEDY:  Yes.  I don't know what he is really thinking. 

John McCain reminds me a bit of those supermodels, like Naomi Campbell or Cindy Crawford, who posed for PETA and said they were anti-fur, and then, like three years later, they are wearing fur.  It's like, who cares?  It's all show business. 

I mean, in 2000, John McCain had those congressional hearings about R-rated movies were being marketed to underage kids.  And the “Wedding Crashers” movie is all over at least New York City.  And all the billboards certainly don't look as if they're geared toward my mother.  Let's put it that way. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Not at all. 

You know who they are geared towards?  People like me.  I can't wait to see this movie. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Dana, Tom, thanks a lot for being with us. 

Mom, I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  Forgive me.  It looks funny. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Now, when we come back, I was once attacked by a fish this big.  Can you name that movie?  We are going to have a true incredible story of a marlin going after a teen fisherman, hitting him on the head with a bill.

That's when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.


SCARBOROUGH:  A fishing adventure almost turns into a disaster. 

You're going to see the amazing video of what happened next.


SCARBOROUGH:  Now the story about the one that got away. 

The Schultz family was fishing near Panama when a 600-pound marlin reared up and attacked. 

With us right now is Robert Schultz.  His son, Steven (ph), was attacked. 

Robert, I understand that the marlin comes out of the water, hits your son in the head.  How is he doing tonight? 

ROBERT SCHULTZ, SON ATTACKED BY MARLIN:  Well, he is resting at home.  He is making a pretty good recovery right now.  He has got four broken bones in his face, on his cheek.  He has had some severe lacerations on the inside of his mouth.  And we got him to several doctors, and going to oral surgeons and making sure that he is going to heal properly. 

SCARBOROUGH:  They expect a full recovery? 

SCHULTZ:  Right now, they do. 

We have got an appointment with the oral surgeon next week.  And we have got an appointment with a plastic surgeon as well, just to make sure the bones are going to heal properly. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You have obviously done some fishing.  He has done a lot of fishing before.  Ever see anything like that? 

SCHULTZ:  You know, I have been around fishing all my life, since I started fishing with my dad 46 years ago. 

And I have been all over the Caribbean fishing.  I have been in Panama, which is where this was, the Tropic Star Lodge, and I have never seen anything like this.  I have heard of a fish attacking boats before.  I have never seen one that seems just bent on coming in.  I was comfortable enough to be sitting on the back of the boat.

SCARBOROUGH:  I was going to ask, was it an accident, or did the fish do it on purpose, you think? 

SCHULTZ:  No.  I believe it was—he was attacking his attacker.  And I think he was—they are aggressive fish by nature, and they are at the top of the food chain. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Wow.  That is remarkable. 

Thank you so much for being with us.

SCHULTZ:  You're welcome. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And, please, let Steven know he is in our thoughts and prayers tonight. 

That's all the time we have tonight in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  We'll see you tomorrow.  Have a great night.



Content and programming copyright 2005 MSNBC.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc. ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user's personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon MSNBC and Voxant, Inc.'s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

Watch Scarborough Country each weeknight at 10 p.m. ET


Discussion comments