Guest: Linda Armstrong Kelly, Vanessa Grigoriadis, Mo Rocca, Ilse Metchek,
Keith Fink, Harris Faulkner, Bill Majeski, Pat Brown, Pam Bondi, Paul
Reynolds
RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST: We have got a big show tonight. We are going to take you from Aruba to the Mediterranean and all across SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY (voice-over): New video of Natalee surfaces, and Alabama lawmakers pass a resolution saying, stay out of Aruba.
Plus, as Aruban authorities await DNA evidence, we ask the experts what this could possibly mean—all that and today's news in the search for Natalee Holloway.
Then, the Mediterranean mystery. Turkish authorities need blood from the missing newlywed's family, but they haven't given samples yet. Tonight, we ask, why not help the investigation? We'll debate.
Plus, phone-throwing, couch-jumping, flesh-grabbing celebrities. Have the stars taken Tom Cruise's advice and gone of their meds? Hollywood insiders give us the scoop on Tinseltown's crazy summer.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all. Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.
COSBY: And hello, everybody, and welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. I'm Rita Cosby. I am in for Joe tonight.
And we have got a lot in store for you this evening. In minutes, new developments on an investigation that starts with a newlywed's mysterious disappearance on his Mediterranean honeymoon cruise and goes all the way to an exclusive Connecticut community.
But, first, the prime minister of Aruba invites the FBI in to do whatever they want, eight weeks after Natalee Holloway disappeared. Also today, in Montgomery, Alabama, Natalee's home state, the legislature passed a resolution asking residents to boycott Aruba. Meanwhile, in Aruba, the search continues, and the prime suspect remains behind bars.
NBC's Michelle Kosinski is there with the very latest—Michelle.
MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Right, Rita.
There are several new developments today. First, as you mentioned, the prime minister is asking prosecutors today to give the FBI full access to evidence in this case. And we know, that is something that the FBI has pretty much had. But, apparently, the prime minister here wants to send a message.
We also know that there's a new lead investigator on the case. The prior one retired yesterday. So, the question has been, will this investigation take a new tack, possibly more aggressive? That remains to be seen. But we know from police today that they plan to get a new statement from Joran Van Der Sloot in jail tomorrow. They say the last one they took from him was a couple of days ago.
And what's more, police tell me today that they are doing all they can to get the Kalpoe brothers put back in jail. The appeals court said there just wasn't enough right now to have those boys in custody, but police say they plan to interview them again in the next few days and that they want them back behind bars.
We also know, in the same area where that duct tape with hair on it was found, which is now being analyzed by the FBI and the Dutch, the same park ranger who found it says he also found another piece of tape that seemed to have red paint on it. But the FBI wasn't looking at that. The FBI said the only thing they have was the duct tape with the hair.
Well, today, the FBI says that other piece of tape wasn't the only other one, that there were actually multiple pieces of duct tape found in that same area, all within several yards of one another, but that they were determined right away on the ground to have no evidentiary value. Well, why is that?
The FBI says, it might have something to do with the condition of the tape. But maybe a bigger question here is, what does that tell us now about the possible significance of the duct tape with hair that was found in the same place? The FBI says they just want to wait and see. They want to get those test results back. And we are expecting that well into next week.
At the same time this is going on, the family of Natalee Holloway has hired a P.I., private investigator, got here two days ago, rather. And he brings with him something called layered voice stress analysis. Now, he says he ran an interview that was done with Paulus Van Der Sloot, Joran's father, through this technology, and he says the results were—quote—
“interesting.”
This technology is used by dozens of police departments and several federal agencies in the state. It's supposed to tell you through someone's voice if they are holding something back, if they are lying. So, he plans to use that here. He says he is basically starting from square one, old-fashioned police work. But he feels the suspects in this case are the right people to be looking at.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
T.J. WARD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: From day one, from them being taken into custody, even though that some evidence was destroyed and not gotten, as far as DNA is concerned, it's now again to go out and do some old-fashioned investigation and find people. I am sure, from—just some of the evidence they got from text messages and from phone calls that were made on cell phones, it's going to lead us to somebody else that knows about this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOSINSKI: He is also lining up investigators down in Venezuela to see if there might be evidence that Natalee might have been kidnapped, because there's absolutely no sign of her thus far on this island—Rita, back to you.
COSBY: All right, Michelle, thank you very much.
And now if we could bring in Natalee's uncle, Paul Reynolds, he joins us from Houston.
Mr. Reynolds, I got to ask you, the news that Michelle was just talking about, in terms of the prime minister asking the government, allow the FBI in, do you think that this will put enough pressure to finally get the FBI in here and make a difference?
PAUL REYNOLDS, UNCLE OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: Well, I think it's good news. I think the prime minister has always wanted them in there.
And I am not sure what the holdup was, but, hopefully, with the new investigators there, the FBI will be allowed to come in and assist with this investigation.
COSBY: One of the things, too, that also came in, sir, was a new home video recently. Is that a sense from the family that they don't want people to lose an attachment, an emotional attachment, to this wonderful woman who is still missing?
REYNOLDS: I haven't seen the video. I really can't speak about it.
COSBY: We are looking at some pictures of it now of her. There she is as part of the band. She is smiling, just a beautiful young woman. And I think anyone who sees this, Mr. Reynolds, is going to say, please, help us. Please, find this woman.
REYNOLDS: Well, of course, you know, Natalee is, of course, very important to our family, a very special person, and anyone that sees her and knows her will understand that.
COSBY: Now, just a little bit ago, the Alabama Statehouse today passed a resolution asking residents not to travel to Aruba. The resolution was sponsored by State Representative Leslie Vance.
We are just going to listen to this real quick.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LESLIE VANCE (D), ALABAMA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: We are asking Alabamans to boycott Aruba until the officials, the authorities in Aruba does something to help the family of the Holloway young lady, to do something that it—you know, it's a sad situation because we feel like the people there have not done what they should do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And, Mr. Reynolds, how did you feel when you heard that this went through?
REYNOLDS: Well, you know, I have been overwhelmed with the support that we are receiving from the government, everyone in the U.S. But it also goes to the people of Aruba that we have come in contact with. It's certain people involved in the investigation that have not come forward with the information and—and the process that's needed.
COSBY: And speaking of not coming forward, I know you have got that private investigator down there. We were just hearing from Michelle that, you know, one of the things is, he feels there's still so many things that maybe the Aruban authorities could look into. Do you still feel that sense of frustration? And now that he has been on the ground for about 24 hours, are you hearing that, yes, look, we still need to look at this area, this area?
REYNOLDS: Well, you know, Beth and I are always saying we need to go back to the beginning. The night that my sister arrived on the island, identified the suspects, the boys that were last seen with her, their original stories turned out to be untrue, and then we had the confessions that occurred, the reported confessions that occurred June 10. So, there's a lot of information to look at.
COSBY: All right.
Well, we thank you. And, of course, we hope the best for your family.
We hope you get some answers soon. Thank you for being with us.
And now, if we could, let's turn to our panel of experts.
Joining us tonight, criminal profiler Pat Brown, also Bill Majeski. He's a polygraph examiner and also a pal of mine and former New York City police detective, and also Pam Bondi, a Florida state prosecutor.
Let me start with you, Pam.
First of all, this resolution that was passed by Alabama, pretty bold, and do you think this is going to go into other states where they say, look, don't go to Aruba?
PAM BONDI, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: I don't know. It's pretty bold, though, I agree. Wow. I mean, they are definitely making a statement, aren't they?
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Yes. Is it the right statement? That's the question. Doesn't that—I mean, are you punishing, you know, the whole country because of this one case?
BONDI: Well, and, you know, it may be. And the government of Aruba, of course, must be very concerned by this resolution passed by Alabama.
But it shows what the insiders in Alabama, who really know what's going on there, feel, that the case isn't being handled properly, is how I am taking it.
COSBY: Now, Bill Majeski, could this also put pressure, now that you are seeing it sort of hitting at the pocketbooks, hitting where it hurts, if you will? Tourism is so big in Aruba. Is this going to have an effect, and Aruban authorities maybe finally say, we got to solve the case?
BILL MAJESKI, POLYGRAPH EXAMINER: Well, I think they certainly want to solve it by allowing now the FBI, who has been there all along, to participate in the investigation.
COSBY: Yes, Bill, how is that going to change it? Now it seems—and, again, this is just the prime minister saying, we want it to happen. Hopefully, it will happen, that they can come in. Whole new ball game, right?
(CROSSTALK)
MAJESKI: Sure, absolutely, if they can come in.
And the other good news is that the lead investigator on the investigation over in Aruba has now been replaced. As you know, that, in any investigation, there's a multitude of information. And if the person at the lead of that investigation is not coordinating that information properly, then, very often, things can be lost. You know, we can look to the sniper situation in Washington a year and-a-half ago, where the information about those two, their license plate was there on the second shooting. It was there in the third shooting.
So, the information was there all along, and no one unearthed it. In this particular situation, with a new set of eyes looking at it, a new lead investigator, and, hopefully, with the FBI moving into it and perhaps being allowed to do some of the interrogating, because that seems to be one of the weak areas here.
COSBY: Yes. Exactly. There seems to be a bit of a distance there. And I agree with you. I am surprised that no one has cracked in this case yet.
Let me—Pat, as we look at these pictures, and I want to show them again if we could, of the home video, do you think, showing these pictures, you see this beautiful girl. You definitely feel you know her. You feel this attachment to her. Do you think that this could maybe inspire someone who has some information to finally come forward?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: I wouldn't say so, Rita. I think they would have done so by now if they were the kind of person that would do so.
But I want to say something about, the prime minister made a smart move, a win-win situation, bringing in the FBI. If the FBI finds something and helps solve the case, then everybody says, Aruba was willing to let the FBI help. It if they can't anything to solve the case, Aruba can say, see, we told you we were doing our job.
And about Representative Vance, I think that's the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard, because what are we all—let's look at the unsolved homicide rates down in Alabama. I got cold cases down there all over the place. So, should we all boycott Alabama?
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I think that's cruel.
COSBY: Right. If that's the case, we are not traveling anywhere.
BROWN: We're not going to go anywhere. That's just—that's just idiotic. And I think, the people of Aruba, that's just not a nice thing to do to them. They are trying their best. I am sure they want to solve this case.
And what we don't want to do is push them so hard that the case will get solved incorrectly, without evidence. So, I think they are doing their best, and I think the FBI being there is helpful as well. But I think we should give them a little bit of respect to know that they probably are trying very hard.
COSBY: Now, Pam, speaking of the forensics, I want to hit on the fact that we have got this DNA testing. We are waiting to hear to back results. We just heard from Michelle. She was saying that there are several pieces of duct tape, large chunks of hair. Does that give you a sense that this could or couldn't be related? The fact that there seems to be long blonde strands, hair found in Aruba, is that more than coincidence?
BONDI: Well, it appears to be.
I mean, most of the time, duct tape and hair together don't have a very good meaning. And, yes, hopefully—you know, you can keep your fingers crossed that hopefully it will come back to be Natalee's. But, you know, who knows. They found so much evidence. They found a pair of panties. They found a lot of other items that they thought originally were related to the case. And they weren't.
But, you know, I think her family is doing such a good job of keeping this story alive and keeping it top of the news and, I mean, just showing the incredible interest in this case. And I think that's the best thing that her parents could be doing now.
COSBY: All right.
Everybody, if you could, stick around. We're going to have to talk with you right after the break about another important story.
A lot more ahead, because up next, new details on another story that is baffling authorities around the world. Turkish investigators are still trying to get blood samples from the family of a missing newlywed. The question is, why haven't they handed those samples over? We will have all the latest on the Mediterranean mystery.
And then, is everyone in Tinseltown off their rocker, or does it just seem that way? We will look at some of the wackiest Hollywood hijinks of the season.
A big night in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. Stay with us, everybody.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: What happened the night a Connecticut newlywed disappeared on his honeymoon cruise? When SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY continues, new information on this mystery on the Mediterranean.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Tonight, some new developments in a story that we have been following very closely, the search for newlywed George Smith.
As we have reported, the groom disappeared from a Mediterranean cruise sometime during the night of July 5. Tonight, Turkish investigators say they have no more leads. They have been asked for blood samples. They are asking George Smith's family for that. They need their help to continue this investigation, but, so far, that hasn't happened.
And it's confirmed that the blood that they found on the ship was about seven hours old, which is roughly coinciding with the time that George Smith vanished.
Joining me now with the very latest is Harris Faulkner. She's a correspondent for “A Current Affair.”
And, Harris, before I start with you, I want to go into what we know, some of the key facts of this particular case. The ship's captain actually called Turkish investigators at 9:30 a.m. after blood was found inside Smith's cabin. Investigators estimated the blood was between seven to eight hours old. Passengers staying below Smith's cabin heard a loud noise in the middle of the night.
Turkish prosecutors are asking Smith's family for blood samples.
Those are all the latest details.
And, Harris, I know that you have been scouring this case. You have worked closely on this.
First of all, I am puzzled. The family is not providing blood samples? What's the reason?
HARRIS FAULKNER, “A CURRENT AFFAIR”: Well, you know, we are all puzzled by exactly what's happening with the family, Rita, where they are, why they are still in seclusion.
If they have watched anything with recent developments in the Natalee Holloway case—and I am sure they have—they would have to know that the lessons we have learned from that case is that, the more public you go, the better off you are in terms of attracting authorities and getting an investigation moving.
So, everybody handles their grief differently. Perhaps that's why they are in seclusion. But, you know, this is a case that has some evidence behind, supposedly, with blood found on that ship. The parents getting involved and pushing at this point would be good for this investigation. Whether the Turkish authorities are into it or the FBI is into it, it brings so much light, and it brings them right into the center of things. It makes them available to prosecutors in Turkey.
The way that the law works, as I understand it, in Turkey is that you have to file a formal application for the investigation to begin, for the Turkish authorities. You have to physically, in Izmir, go to the American Consulate to do that. The parents, as of today, had not done that. I don't know.
It's your child missing. Isn't that the first thing you do?
COSBY: Now, speaking of first thing, there is a man. It's a San Diego student, right, San Diego student, who probably was the last person to see George Smith alive. And now, what, he's scared?
Josh Askin (ph) and his family live in Southern California. We talked with him off camera at length, before they had lawyered up, I should say, because his father is a prominent podiatrist. And by the end of the day a couple of days ago, they had an attorney speaking on their behalf.
But, before that point, the father shared with us that the reason authorities are so interested in talking with the Askin (ph) family has to do with the fact that Josh was among the last few people to see George Allen Smith alive, in their opinion. You know, there were two guys that we know from other witnesses who were seen taking some kind of alcohol shots with George in the bar, 3:00 a.m., July 5, long after the lights went on.
It's our understanding that Josh was one of them. And we know from witnesses that those two men and George Allen Smith left the bar together. Was there someone who came into contact with George after that? There's no way to know, but, certainly, the FBI and other authorities are interested in talking with Josh Askin (ph).
And, yes, I mean, now, at this point, like I said, the family has an attorney. Why? Perhaps to speak on their behalf. We don't know any other reason.
COSBY: Now, Harris, this is the strangest honeymoon I have ever heard of. He is out there partying with the guys drinking. And, what, she is in, like, a disco in a bar drinking with somebody else. Weren't they supposed to be on a honeymoon?
FAULKNER: Well, let me paint just an earlier picture for you, because, yes, that's what it was like on the night of July 4 going into the week.
COSBY: Were they arguing, Harris?
FAULKNER: Well...
COSBY: Do we know if there was any violence and arguing?
FAULKNER: We do know. We do know.
Let me take you back really quickly, though. The Askin (ph) family shared a cab with this couple at one of the points. Apparently, George and Jennifer were so drunk—and this was during the daytime hours, as they told us—that they had to stop the cab at one point to let George get out to get sick. So, this couple was partying together constantly, according to the Askin (ph) family, and, in addition to that, dropping a lot of cash, George was, in the casino, gambling, buying rounds of drinks for people at the bar.
OK, now let's fast forward to July 4, the night of, the early morning of July 5, as they are partying in that bar. A witness that I talked with here in New Jersey said, well, you know, I was there. Jennifer was drunk. She was leaning on me. George came over. They got into a spat, George apparently being aggravated that Jennifer wanted to talk to the people at the bar more than she wanted to hang out with him and his friends.
So, yes, there was a spat, a disagreement, an argument, if you will, witnessed between the couple. She left first and was described to be so drunk that she was, you know, kind of leaning on the walls on her way out. I don't know any kind of honeymoon that ends up with two people going in separate directions. It's not my place to judge.
COSBY: Exactly. And, Harris, look, that's bizarre. But, again, we still don't know who is responsible.
FAULKNER: Right. Exactly.
COSBY: And let me bring in the panel. Harris—stick with us, Harris, because I want to have you still stick with us.
Pat Brown, first of all, this is so bizarre. And, again, it doesn't mean criminal behavior, but it's certainly odd behavior, don't you think?
BROWN: Not really, actually. You know...
COSBY: Why not?
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Well, think about the age we are talking about. We are talking about early 20s. I'm sorry, but lots of people in their early 20s get trashed. I mean, that's what you do. You go on your honeymoon, and you only spend so much time being a little romantic thing.
And, you know, you can't do that all the time. So, you are going out.
You're partying. You're having fun. You're having a great time.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Pat, fair enough. But, then, on the other hand, you don't end up missing and have blood in your cabin and the outside railing.
BROWN: Well, that's true.
But I want to point out something interesting. I don't know whether the—this is—maybe you can answer this question, whether the balcony was attached to that particular room.
COSBY: Let me ask Harris. Harris, was it?
(CROSSTALK)
FAULKNER: Yes. Yes. That's what we are hearing.
BROWN: OK.
FAULKNER: That there was a balcony attached to the room. There was some blood found on a railing.
BROWN: Right.
FAULKNER: And then, below that, the blood found on the overhang there.
(CROSSTALK)
FAULKNER: I have been on one of the Royal Caribbean ships, not the Brilliance of the Seas, but one of them. I am almost 5'11“. There's no way I could fall off that balcony at my height. He's bigger than I am.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: And, you guys, I just want to explain to everybody, we are looking at pictures. I know these are pictures that we obtained from folks who were on that cruise, just to give some perspective.
Bill Majeski, what are you sensing here?
MAJESKI: I think they have to do an investigation, that they have to start talking to people. I don't know the—the Egyptian authorities are saying their investigation is stymied or complete up to this point in time. They are waiting for forensic evidence.
But it seems to me there's an awful lot of people that should be spoken to by someone. And perhaps what they are waiting for is the right authority to come in and take control of the investigation.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: And, Pam—let me bring in Pam Bond, because, Pam, Bill, I think, hit it on the head. People are not talking. I found what Harris was talking about, this guy, Josh, the fact that he is not cooperating, seems to be the last person, who seems scared, it sounds like maybe there's something there that he saw?
BONDI: It sure does.
It sounds like there's more there than just a drunk guy falling off a balcony, absolutely. And, you know, I disagree with Pat. I do think it's unusual when you are on your honeymoon to be out without your brand new spouse all night. I mean, I could see them getting so drunk, but then the next morning, she gets up—I guess Harris could confirm this.
FAULKNER: Right.
BONDI: But she gets up to go to the gym and doesn't notice if her husband is in their cabin or not? I don't care how...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: In fact, let me bring in Harris, because, Harris, what, it was the captain who ended up reporting it to Turkish authorities, but—a cleaning person who saw the blood?
FAULKNER: Well, what happened was—and—and we have a witness who was in the elevator when Jennifer got in and asked where the solarium was. We understand that the gym is located near the solarium. So, to corroborate part of the story, whether she was on her way to the gym or to the pool that is located by the solarium, we don't know.
But we do know she was going down into that area. Yes, the captain of the ship made announcements at first looking for George Allen Smith. And when they realized he wasn't on the ship, then they made an announcement saying, well, pay no attention to the investigators who are coming on board to look for a missing man.
So, you know, at one point, they are telling the passengers, hey, we are looking for this person. Next point, we are investigating something, but go on about your merry way, because we are not going to stop the ship and we are not going to stop festivities on board the boat.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Let me bring in Bill, because just I just got a few seconds left.
MAJESKI: Sure.
COSBY: But, Bill, real quick, the other thing that Harris brought up with me before the show, you got a moving crime scene.
MAJESKI: Yes.
COSBY: Everybody still kept coming on the ship.
MAJESKI: Absolutely. I think.
COSBY: Who knows who was in that room.
MAJESKI: It's all about the money.
The thing is, if they stop the ship, if they prevent people from getting off, it's bad for business. You know, the reality of the situation is that somebody that may have committed that crime is long gone. So, they have to go back to the beginning, try to regather people, try to get out there and talk to anybody and everybody that was in the vicinity of the two of them in the bar the evening before.
You know, it's a situation that, the longer they wait to do something, the more difficult it's going to be to ascertain who was involved in this.
COSBY: All right, guys, that's going to have to be the last word.
Thank you, everybody.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Harris, we appreciate it.
Pat, Pam, and also Bill Majeski, good to see everyone. Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: And coming up, the CEO of a major clothing company is certainly, shall we say, a free spirit. But some former employees say he took his sexual openness way too far. Did he create an environment of free love or sexual oppression? Wait until you hear these stunning workplace allegations. That is coming up next.
And, later, the very big question: Are Hollywood stars more out of control this summer or is it just us? From odd new pairings to celebs behind bars, we will get to the very bottom of this crazy summer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: It's been a strange summer for Hollywood stars. What's behind all of these crazy antics? We have got two Hollywood insiders to break it down for us.
But, first, here's the latest news from MSNBC world headquarters.
(NEWS BREAK)
COSBY: Well, it is one crazy summer for those Hollywood types, from Russell Crowe's phone-throwing tantrum, to Brad and Angelina “Are they or aren't they?” pairing, to pretty much anything that Tom Cruise does. Is there something in the water?
Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, everybody. I'm Rita Cosby, in for Joe. Our bicoastal celebrity panel will break that story down in just a few minutes, but, first, an incredible story.
We have all heard the old saying that sex sells, but could the founder and chief executive of an American clothing company be taking it a little bit too far? Three former employees of American Apparel have filed sexual harassment lawsuits against their former boss, Dov Charney. They say that Charney did everything, from refer to women in derogatory terms, to exposing himself, to even asking one plaintiff to masturbate with him.
What do you make of all of this?
Joining us now to talk about the Charney lawsuit is Keith Fink. He is the attorney for Mary Nelson, one of the plaintiffs, a former American Apparel employee. Also with us Ilse Metchek. She's the executive director of the California Fashion Association.
We first want to say also that we contacted the American Apparel association—the company, rather—today to invite them on the show, but a representative said that they were not able to appear based on time. But they flatly deny these allegations. They are also wrapped up in the lawsuit and have to be careful of what we—what they have to say.
Mr. Fink, is this about money? Are you guys after the money?
KEITH FINK, ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFF: Well, it would be disingenuous to say that somebody files a lawsuit and there's no aspect of money involved. So, of course, there's one aspect. When you are a plaintiff and when you are a lawyer filing a lawsuit on behalf of an individual plaintiff, it is about money.
And the case isn't only about sexual harassment. My client in particular—the other two plaintiffs quit. My client, after a rape incident occurred in Las Vegas, said, enough is enough. And we'll talk about the backdrop to the rape incident. She went to see a lawyer. After Mr. Charney learned that my client saw a lawyer, she was fired. So, it was the firing that was the genesis of the lawsuit. And when somebody is fired, they should be made whole.
COSBY: Let me bring in Ilse, because do you believe these lawsuits are justified? I mean, you are a woman and you hear these allegations.
ILSE METCHEK, CALIFORNIA FASHION ASSOCIATION: I'm a woman, and I have been working in this business for more years than I care to admit.
And I don't believe these allegations warrant a lawsuit. There was no touching, no quid pro quo, no threats. These women put themselves in the position that they were in and then enabled the situation and then sued.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Let me show some of the wacky comments—wait. Hold on one second. I want to show some of the comments he made, that, you know, a lot of us kind of go, oh, that's a little bizarre. This is from Dov Charney.
He said, “I know it is here. It is in my pants.” And he's referring to his fashion instincts. Something asked him about this.
Here's another quote. And this was—he was asked about employee relationships. And he said—quote—“When everyone is doing everyone else, it's good for morale.”
Finally, he was asked about masturbation. And he said: “Masturbation in front of women is underrated. It's much easier on the women. She gets to watch. It's a sensual experience and that doesn't involve a man violating a woman.”
These are kind of wacky comments, Ilse, don't you think? But, again, the question is, is it wacky vs. sexual harassment?
METCHEK: So? She has the opportunity to resign because of it. Why is she putting herself in that position? If you are in a position to understand the workplace you are working for, then quit. You shouldn't even be there.
COSBY: Let me bring in Keith.
Keith, did she know what she was getting into?
(CROSSTALK)
FINK: I would like to answer that, because these are the same quotes that this person, who never worked for American Apparel, never met my client, and was not a percipient witness to any of these allegations, she told basically “The New York Times” that boys will be boys.
This individual, who appears to be apologist for American Apparel, has no understanding of the law undergirding sexual harassment or sex discrimination. And if you took her view, you would roll back the laws 20 years. One doesn't have to be asked for sex to work in a hostile sexual environment.
An employer, a superior doesn't have to touch an individual to be in a sexually hostile environment. The law is very clear. An employer cannot ridicule, cannot demean, cannot have visual or verbal statements which an employee would find offensive and would interfere with the work performance.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: But I have to ask you though, Keith, you look at this guy's background, you look at even some of the ads that he posed in, he's wacky. He's kooky. Didn't she get into that, you know what, I don't maybe like this guy? And after she stayed there for a bit, shouldn't she have just said, I'm leaving?
FINK: Well, that's not actually true.
If you go do a Google search on American Apparel and Dov Charney, he is somewhat of a media darling. Up until recently, the media's portrayal of American Apparel is, this is a great place to work. It's sweatshop free. It wasn't until recently you had a “Jane” magazine article where he freely talks about his desire to masturbate and—masturbate, or self-pleasure—I don't know if that word is appropriate on television—to have self-pleasure with your employees.
And the media doesn't talk about this individual until recently being without his clothing, in his underwear in front of his employees, being at a Chinese dinner and dropping his clothes, appearing naked, at least partially naked, from the bottom down, in a magazine which is distributed in the workplace, referring to women as female dogs.
You know, I can list all of these statements. If you read the “Ottawa Citizen” article this week, Mr. Charney—it's interesting. He is free to speak to the hard press, but he won't come on television to confront me.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Wait. No, Keith, I got to interrupt you, because I got to
show you a quote, because we did—in fairness, I want to make sure that -
· he has flatly denied these allegations. I want to show the quote, in fact, what he has said before, because he says this is outrageous.
And, in his defense, because he is not here, let me say this. He
said: “I'm denying any sexual misconduct and denying I've had any sexual
intentions with these girls, but their lawsuits bring up freedom of speech
and freedom of expression.” He further says—this is from his attorney -
· “What they are trying to do is use Mr. Charney's openness about his sexuality as a weapon against him.”
Ilse, you know him.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Let me get—no, I got to get Ilse to respond.
Ilse, you know this guy. Is he just—are his maybe—comments maybe inappropriate, and you go, uh, and—but people are misinterpreting him?
METCHEK: No. The first—the first part. He is—he is batty, and you do go, oh. But then that is the nature of the business.
I go back to—first of all, the attorney misspoke about the fact that I don't know him. I never said, boys will be boys. That certainly is not my point of view. In this particular situation...
COSBY: You have got 10 seconds.
METCHEK: OK.
In this particular sections, I point to “Playboy.” I point to Hooters. We talk about MTV. This is the society we live in. These girls are not sheltered. They are not from a nunnery. They knew exactly where they were supposed to be working. And, if they didn't like it, they should have resigned.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Let me add one thing, you guys. He does deny it.
And also...
FINK: Well...
COSBY: ... of course, if it is inappropriate behavior, nobody condones that, especially if it crosses line.
(CROSSTALK)
FINK: Rita...
COSBY: Keith, I got to go. I'm so sorry.
Both of you, we appreciate you being with us.
And coming up, we got have another story. This is another one about unusual behavior. The new issue of “Us Weekly” is on the newsstands, featuring Jude Law's apology for his affair with a nanny on its cover. Jude's affair is just the latest in a spate of crazy celebrity behavior, including strange Hollywood couplings, multiple arrests, and also a bit of couch-jumping.
Earlier, Joe Scarborough talked to TV personality Mo Rocca and also the author of this week's “New York” magazine article, cover story, celebrity psychos, about this bizarre phenomenon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VANESSA GRIGORIADIS, “NEW YORK”: The question really is, are these people going slightly crazy because of the celebrity machine that is just marching along at an ever-greater pace and watching them and throwing money at them and sponsorship deals? And, you know, people just want to be near them. and the aura of celebrities now just covers everything.
So, you know, is this somehow creating more madness and more bad behavior, in the case of, like, Jude Law? I mean, this is an incredibly embarrassing situation for him. But...
(CROSSTALK)
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST: Well, not only embarrassing. It seems to me from, like, a neutral observer, a pretty stupid thing to do.
GRIGORIADIS: Yes.
SCARBOROUGH: Did you see “Alfie”? Do you see his wife in “Alfie”?
MO ROCCA, TELEVISION PERSONALITY: Did you see “Alfie”? Who saw “Alfie”?
SCARBOROUGH: So, the new issue of “W,” Katie Holmes seems off her rocker. Her interviewer describes one of the moments with Katie, says—quote—this is what she says—“'He's my man. He's my man, she screams, then jumps up on her chair to do an impression of her fiance's now-famous sofa shtick from 'Oprah.' People begin to cheer. 'This is your moment!' cries the manicurist. 'I can do splits too,' Holmes says, jumping down and splashing herself across the floor.”
And yet, the top movies of the summer, “War of the Worlds,” “Batman Begins.” Apparently, this doesn't have any repercussion with the movie-going audience, does it, Vanessa?
GRIGORIADIS: I don't think it really does.
I mean, there was a spate of articles saying, oh, my God, this is horrible. Tom Cruise is not going to get “Mission: Impossible 3,” or is it possible that, you know, “Mr. and Mrs. Smith” will be a total wreck because of this relationship? And, of course, none of those things have actually happened. The more attention that is drawn to these stars, the more people want to go see their movies. I'm sorry. That is the way that it's working, at least this summer.
(LAUGHTER)
SCARBOROUGH: And especially...
GRIGORIADIS: People have said that that is not the way it works in the past.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes, especially, Mo, since people get rewarded for doing very bad things. I mean, you can look at “The New York Times” cover story spread, at least in the business section, on Paris, Inc., basically a woman whose fortune is growing because of a porn tape that was released. And, you know, Russell Crowe gets rave reviews.
ROCCA: Well, no. And Russell Crowe is exhibiting classic narcissism,
a lack of empathy. He threw a phone at a guy's face. And it wasn't like a
tiny little Nokia cell phone, which could have been worse, actually
(LAUGHTER)
ROCCA: Those things are so thin, they could slice you open.
But, no, it's—it's—it's—it's—it's sick behavior.
But, you know, the—the other part of—dimension of narcissism is becoming infantilized, also, and becoming childlike. When you read that “W” profile of Katie Holmes, she seems so childlike. And you almost believe that she thinks that she is in love with Tom Cruise.
(LAUGHTER)
ROCCA: It's too easy, which is a terribly patronizing thing for me to say.
GRIGORIADIS: Both, you know, Brad and Angelina are very pouty, narcissistic creatures. I mean, I read somebody saying that the real joy of watching “Mr. and Mrs. Smith” is watching two people at the height of their movie stardom. I mean, they are just glistening with sexual appeal, and, you know, just like aura. They're really—it's—I don't know. The two of them, it's a little too much.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: That's actually what people say about Mo and me every night. They say this on TV. We are glistening with sex appeal.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
ROCCA: Exactly. We're the most luscious star on the punditry circuit.
I am intrigued by the whole Christian Slater ass-grabbing contretemps.
(LAUGHTER)
ROCCA: And I just like to put ass-grabbing next to contretemps, because it's a whole high-low kind of thing.
(LAUGHTER)
ROCCA: What you have is a guy who, by choice—I am not dissing him here—but, by choice, is now working in the theater primarily. So, he's no longer a national star of the same caliber that he was before.
He gets charged with grabbing a woman's behind. And the court offers him three days of probation. And he rejects this. And, at that point, you can only think, he is thinking, my gosh, I want—I want more out of this. I want more attention out of this infraction.
SCARBOROUGH: No.
ROCCA: Maybe I should have—maybe I should have abducted her. Maybe I should have carjacked somebody, because this obviously wasn't enough.
(LAUGHTER)
ROCCA: So, it's—that seems odd. The court is letting him get by, and he won't take the pass.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, Mo, we will leave it there.
Thank you, Mo. Thank you, Vanessa.
GRIGORIADIS: Yes.
SCARBOROUGH: We greatly appreciate you being with us tonight.
ROCCA: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: Thanks, Joe.
And, from crazy in Hollywood to the Tour de France, Lance Armstrong's mom comes to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY and reveals a few secrets about the bike-racing star.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: As he approaches the final stages of his last Tour de France, Lance Armstrong seems to be back on track to win an incredible seventh Tour de France. Everyone knows Lance's amazing story, but you probably didn't know Lance's mom has survived her share of troubles. And she wrote about them in her new auto biography called “No Mountain High Enough.”
Joe spoke to Linda Armstrong Kelly and asked about her son's famous reaction to this book.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCARBOROUGH: What part of that book came as the biggest shock to him?
LINDA ARMSTRONG KELLY, MOTHER OF LANCE ARMSTRONG: I think that he just didn't realize the poverty that I had experienced growing up, also, the fact that, whenever I was kicked out of the house, I continued—I worked the whole time that Lance was a child. And I don't think he realized a lot of that what I think he realized was sacrifice.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, Linda, a lot of us are late bloomers.
(LAUGHTER)
SCARBOROUGH: I didn't wake up until, I think, halfway through my college career.
Talk about Lance. Could you tell that he was special from the very beginning, that he was driven from the very beginning, or did it happen at some magical time in his adolescence?
ARMSTRONG KELLY: I've got to tell you, he did everything fast. First of all, he came into this world almost 10 pounds, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
SCARBOROUGH: Wow.
ARMSTRONG KELLY: He was a big guy, and I gained 20. Do the math.
So, he has done everything fast. I mean, he walked at nine months.
He was potty-trained at 18 months. He was just...
SCARBOROUGH: Wow.
ARMSTRONG KELLY: He did everything fast. And I was the one who took the training wheels off his bike, pushed the back of that bike, saw him turn around and saw the happy face that he had. And he was a little guy that always wanted to be outside.
But even when I worked outside of the home, the evenings and the weekends were spent with him. And I channeled his energy, because I got to tell you, he was an active little guy.
SCARBOROUGH: Was he a great athlete from the beginning?
ARMSTRONG KELLY: He was not a very good football player.
(LAUGHTER)
SCARBOROUGH: No.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
ARMSTRONG KELLY: He didn't play good football.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes.
ARMSTRONG KELLY: I thought he was a great baseball player.
But, really, where he seemed to excel was when he started running.
And running led to swimming. He had to ride his bike to swim practice. So, he put the three together, started doing triathlons; 13, 14 years old, he was doing triathlons, yes.
SCARBOROUGH: What—what are your thoughts—what are your thoughts going to be when you see Lance cross the finish line and win a record number of Tours coming up?
ARMSTRONG KELLY: Oh, this is such an emotional time for me. Lance has been doing this for 20 years, and this is all I can remember. I mean, every weekend, we spent time doing these things.
And, as he left home, I would go over to Europe for these spring classics and see him race for two weeks. And now to say that he is retiring, and see him finish that last race, it makes me sad. But then there's also a part of me that says he is doing this for the right reason.
And when he decided to retire, it was because he wanted to spend more time with his family, and that's—that's exactly the man that he is.
SCARBOROUGH: Talk about the foundation. Obviously, everybody knows about the yellow bracelets. But now you are moving it a step forward and actually you are moving to laptop computers. Explain.
(LAUGHTER)
ARMSTRONG KELLY: Well, first of all, the wristband.
A year ago, May 17, I was fortunate enough to launch that wristband. And I remember giving them to people. And I said, these are going to be really, really big. And they looked at me like I was crazy.
(LAUGHTER)
ARMSTRONG KELLY: I have got to tell you.
And, as it's turned out, there was a time for a while there, you couldn't even get the wristband, OK? And now we—last week, I understood the numbers were 50 million. And every day, that number changes. It's such a great compliment that the foundation, first of all, is having the privilege to get these yellow wristbands to people that want them so badly.
Secondly, there's this laptop, livestrongpc.com, that, for every purchase of this laptop that you make, $50 of that goes directly to the Lance Armstrong Foundation.
SCARBOROUGH: Wow.
ARMSTRONG KELLY: So, it's got to be much like this wristband. I got to say, I am always a true believer in something that really is for the good.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, that's fantastic.
Well, thank you so much for being with us, Linda. We greatly appreciate it. And good luck.
ARMSTRONG KELLY: Thank you.
SCARBOROUGH: We will be following Lance, obviously, like all Americans will. And look forward to having you back.
ARMSTRONG KELLY: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: What a great mom.
Well, up next, this week's SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY champions.
We're going to be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Want to find out more about what's going on in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY? Well, you have got to check out Joe's morning read on our Web site at Joe.MSNBC.com.
Be sure to stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Well, this week, there are two SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY champions. The Benton sisters from Tennessee are finally home tonight, after surviving the London bombings more than two weeks ago. SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY first brought you their story the night of the bombings.
They talked to NBC's Donna Gregory about their injuries, their faith, and their ability to forgive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATIE BENTON, LONDON BOMBING SURVIVOR: I have had a pretty significant chunk of, two chunks, actually, of my leg that were missing, quite a bit of skin. And then my hand was sliced open—not even open. My hand was—something went through my hand. And I have some severe hearing loss, particularly in my right ear.
EMILY BENTON, LONDON BOMBING SURVIVOR: I broke two bones in my hand right there. And I have a plate in that. And then my foot is—was like shattered.
I just felt so bad for everyone else. I guess I don't—haven't really felt that was pity for myself, because I know that I am going to make it through this and that, you know, what has happened to me is not as bad as, you know, some of the other people on the train.
K. BENTON: And I don't feel like, you know, why me, both, why did I live, but also why was I there? I don't really have those feelings, because I can see how the lord is using it already.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: How inspirational.
And, unfortunately, that's all the time we have for tonight. If you have something to say, be sure to send Joe an e-mail at Joe.MSNBC.com.
Joe is back on Monday. And I will be back here soon with my own show, so you have to be sure to catch that.
In the meantime, everybody, have a great weekend and have a terrific night.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
END
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