updated 7/28/2005 11:34:32 AM ET 2005-07-28T15:34:32

Guest: James Walker, Peter Mohamed, Lisa Bloom, Bo Dietl, Geoffrey Fieger,

Art Wood, Beth Holloway Twitty

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Hey, a lot of big news, two big stories we are covering tonight in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. 

Tonight‘s top headline, tonight, right now, the frantic search is going on at this minute for Natalee Holloway, as authorities drain a swamp where they believe the Alabama teen may be buried. 

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, no passport required, only common sense allowed. 

You are looking live, as, inch by inch, the water drains from a pond in Aruba.  Is this marsh Natalee‘s final resting place or another false lead in this frustrating case?  And the suspects head back to court today, desperately trying to keep their DNA out of investigators‘ hands.  We are live in Aruba with the very latest, plus, reaction from Natalee‘s family.  And our all-star panel is going to be here to tell you what it means. 

Plus, last night, we were the first to show you this shocking photo.  Is it proof of a bloody honeymoon?  And should the bride be sent directly to jail?  We have got the latest on that investigation also on this special edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.   

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  A big night of news in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY tonight.

Our explosive segment on the missing honeymooner has ignited a firestorm.  Now, tonight, new details on what happened the night George Smith IV disappeared and the picture that could be the key to this case, blood found just feet away from the couple‘s cabin. 

But, first, another day and night of frantic activity in Aruba.  Today, the Dutch boy busted in the Natalee Holloway case frantically fights to avoid DNA testing.  And, tonight, authorities continue draining a pond based on the shocking testimony of a surprise last-minute witness.  We are going to be hearing from the private investigator who turned a cold case into a scorching hot investigation. 

But, first, let‘s go live to Aruba and get the very latest from NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski, who is on the scene of the frantic search for Natalee. 

Michelle, what‘s going on right now in Aruba? 


You see this pumping operation still going on right here, just as it was last night, when we talked to you.  Even today, they were able to double their capacity.  They had the local oil refinery kick in two enormous pumps.  But, still, they think this is going to take them into tomorrow. 

Now, while this is going on, we are also seeing some interesting things happening in court.  All three of the attorneys for the suspects in today, Joran van der Sloot brought out of the jail to be present.  What these attorneys want to do is have those DNA samples that were taken recently from all the suspects thrown out of evidence.  They say the way the order was obtained for those samples was improper.

And, you know, right now, prosecutors agree.  They say, yes, there were some technicalities.  There were some mistakes made.  So, prosecutors want to file for another order to get those samples.  Now, here‘s something we haven‘t heard before.  Why do prosecutors want those DNA samples so badly?  One of the defense attorneys tells us they want to compare those samples with male DNA that was found on Natalee Holloway‘s toothbrush inside her hotel room.  That is new. 

Also in court today, we see Joran van der Sloot‘s attorney try to stop prosecutors from having him taken out of jail and interrogated again.  His attorney says everything he has to say, he has already said, and he is not going to say anything different. 

Now, all these developments, of course, mean that this case is moving forward.  That is an enormous comfort to Natalee‘s family.  I was able to sit down this afternoon with her mother. 

Here‘s what she had to say. 


BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  I am just really encouraged that all this is happening this week.  I mean, this is something we have worked so hard for, for eight weeks.  And, you know, now to see—we have got the fire department involved.  We have got the authorities out there.  I mean, you know, that‘s—that‘s huge. 

KOSINSKI:  So, to hear of this person eight weeks later finally being convinced to tell police, that has to be promising to you. 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Oh, yes.  And—but it doesn‘t—you know, I am not surprised by it.  I‘m not—you know, I think that it takes a while for individuals to come forward and to have that assurance and trust, to know that there will not be any repercussions if they should come forward with this information.

So, I am really encouraged that people might be stepping forward now. 

KOSINSKI:  Is it interesting what this witness says, that he saw all of them in this field, 3:00 in the morning? 


HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Oh, absolutely.  I mean, we have been looking to nail that time frame since the moment we got on the island.  That‘s the critical time that we have been trying to hang onto, so, that is huge. 

KOSINSKI:  Tell me how—how, I guess, inspired you are that all of these developments are happening right now and how that makes you feel in the course of this case.

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Oh, I am just so encouraged and so—have so much optimism that, you know, this is something that we have that we and everyone else involved in this have worked so hard for.  We have worked—we have worked, you know, very hard for the last eight weeks to get to this point where we are.

So, we are just—it‘s just—it‘s huge.  So, we are really—we‘re really encouraged by it.  First and foremost, I always have my hope that Natalee will return—will be returned safely.  Any mother—and I am sure everyone.  It‘s what everyone‘s wish is, everyone. 

But, Michelle, when we landed on this island, we had one goal, and that‘s to find her.  That is our only goal right now, Michelle, is to find Natalee. 


KOSINSKI:  A lot going on out here, Joe—back to you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Michelle, let‘s talk about this operation again.  They are draining the swamp behind you.  Last night, they believed it may be over by tonight.  Now you are talking about it going into tomorrow.  Why the delay, and are they still hopeful they may find some evidence here, again, because this area, this new witness comes forward and says, this is the area where he saw the suspects at 3:00 a.m.?

Is that why authorities are really keying in and draining this swamp right now? 

KOSINSKI:  Absolutely.  This witness says he saw all three suspects in the same field, parked in a car, early that morning, after the Kalpoes had said they had already returned home. 

They are going to get all the water out here.  And there‘s a lot of water, obviously.  This is pumping out at 9,000 gallons a minute.  And it‘s been going on since last night.  After it is dry, or it‘s muddy, basically, they are going to come in here with dogs and on foot, do some searching,.

And EquuSearch, those volunteers searchers, are now back on this island.  They are going to come out here with methane-detecting equipment to see if anything organic might have been buried out here.  They are also going to use ground-penetrating radar to check for any soft spots, where, again, something might have been placed. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, Michelle, we had heard actually that EquuSearch was going back.  This new witness comes forward.  They start draining the swamp.  Things start falling.  The dominoes start falling in this investigation.  Now EquuSearch has decided to come back, to bring more force back, because they believe this case may be close to being broken? 

KOSINSKI:  Nobody knows, but they are certainly hoping.

And, obviously, when you look at this one witness‘ statement, we know what we know about it, no more detail than that.  But, obviously, we have seen authorities take this statement so seriously.  Even before they started draining this area, a couple of days ago, we saw the FBI this reenactment.  They brought the Kalpoe brothers‘ car out to this area.  They had a witness car drive by and try to show what exactly he might have seen that night.  And they apparently trust some of his information to stage all of this right now. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Michelle Kosinski, thank you so much.  Stand by.  We are going to be going back to you, obviously, throughout the hour for any late-breaking developments.  We will get an update at the bottom of the hour.

And, of course, as Michelle has been telling you, shocking developments, as a surprise witness blows holes in the young suspects‘ stories, after the FBI reenacted what the witness says he saw that night Natalee disappeared.  And now, of course, they are draining a swamp where the witness said he saw the boys around 3:00 a.m.

Now, the investigator who found this witness and has really turned this case around is Art Wood.  And he joins us now live from Aruba. 

Art, I got to ask you.  The first question is, where in the world did this witness come from?  We understand he didn‘t step forward.  We understand you found him and basically dragged him into the investigation.  What happened? 

ART WOOD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Well, Joe, basically, what happened was, about a month ago, we had heard that there was a poker—a domino game in the prison in which one of the Kalpoe brothers was playing dominoes.

And somebody mentioned that their gardener had seen the brother at 3:00 a.m. behind the racket club.  We had—we spent three to four weeks searching for that witness.  It turns out that we found him.  He is a gardener.  I believe he is very credible.  I was impressed with his sincerity, his...


SCARBOROUGH:  OK, Art, I got to stop you right there, because, Art, I want to talk about your background for a second, because you have been around the block.  I mean, you have had a chance to look at witnesses. 

I mean, you worked for the Secret Service.  Is that correct?  You have been in this business for 30 years now. 

WOOD:  I‘m a retired...

SCARBOROUGH:  Go ahead. 

WOOD:  I am a retired Secret Service agent, and I have over 30 years of investigative experience.  I could tell you, from my experience...

SCARBOROUGH:  And so you looked in this guy‘s eyes, and you decided that this guy was a credible witness? 

WOOD:  I—I immediately knew he was credible. 

He stuck to his story.  He places the brothers there.  He didn‘t hesitate.  I believed him 100 percent.  I took him to the site myself.  We went over it.  He told me everything.  Eduardo Mansour (ph) and I took him to the police, and they grilled him for hours and reenacted this—the whole situation. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And, of course, they grilled him for hours.  He remained consistent with his story, which is, of course, why Joran‘s lawyers don‘t want him to continue to be grilled, because, of course, you grill him for long enough, they are going to change their stories. 

A lot of Americans, a lot of Arubans tonight, may be asking the question, why did it take him so long to come forward?  Why didn‘t he want to talk?  Is it because, let‘s face it, if you step out in Aruba, if you cross the authorities, if you cross the Dutch, you could be a very unpopular person there.  Is that what it‘s all about? 

WOOD:  Well, you know what?  He was afraid to come forward, but he didn‘t—he told his employer about this when it happened.

And I think they—it just dropped through the cracks.  And when—when I found him, he didn‘t hesitate to tell us. 

SCARBOROUGH:  OK, Art.  You have worked for the Secret Service.  You have got 30 years law enforcement and investigation experience.  You have looked at this case as closely as anybody outside the FBI.

Give us the straight—I mean, give us the straight scoop tonight.  Are these three boys involved in the disappearance and possible murder of Natalee Holloway? 

WOOD:  Joe, I am part of the investigative team of the “Diario” newspaper.  I am a—a consultant with them.  I can tell you that we all on this team believe that all three boys were involved in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.  And we‘re—we are turning over every stone to find the truth. 

SCARBOROUGH:  One other question.  This new witness, of course, blows holes in the Kalpoe brothers‘ story.  They claim they were back in bed by 3:00 a.m.

Your witness had to actually move his car out of the way from where he saw the Kalpoe brothers and van der Sloot that night on a dirt road.  Do you think, based on that evidence—again, my gosh, the Kalpoe brothers, I think they have changed their story three, four times.  This guy blows holes in his latest version of events.  Should the Kalpoe brothers be thrown back in jail? 

WOOD:  It‘s been almost a week since we—we found this witness.  I can‘t believe the Kalpoe brothers are not back in jail.  It‘s just beyond my imagination why they are not. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And, once—and, once again, I mean, they‘re changing stories.  What do you want to look for next, Art?  Obviously, you found this witness.  It‘s remarkable.  Do you think there are other witnesses in Aruba still afraid to come forward for any reason that could give you, give the FBI, give the Aruban authorities and, most importantly, give the Holloway family more information, so they can find Natalee? 

WOOD:  Joe, we believe there are other witnesses. 

We think that it‘s very important for the people to put up the reward for information, because there are people who saw things that night.  And there could be other people involved in the disposal of a body, if there‘s a murder here. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thank you so much, Art.  We greatly appreciate you being with us tonight and filling us in. 

I will tell you what.  Art has a unique position here.  He is not attached to the FBI.  He is not attached to Aruban authorities.  He is not attached to Dutch authorities, thank God.  So, he can look at this investigation and come in and tell us what he sees firsthand.  He has got the experience.  It‘s obvious something is going on there. 

Now, here‘s the question.  Will the day‘s developments finally bring a resolution in this case?  When we come back, we are going to be joined live by our all-star panel of experts.  Of course, they are all going to have an opinion.

And again, as we bump out, I want to show you images, I want to show you images, again, back in Aruba of what‘s going on right now.  They are draining the swamp in a desperate search to find Natalee Holloway.  Authorities believe that Natalee may be—may have run into these men in this area.  They are draining the swamp.  They have been doing it for the past 24 hours.  Michelle Kosinski is going to be giving us live reports throughout the hour. 

Also, we are coming up, talking about Joran van der Sloot‘s day in court.  We are going to tell you why he doesn‘t want investigators or authorities to get their hands on his DNA.

And, later, we were the first to show you this picture.  Now we have got the latest on the investigation into the mystery of the missing newlywed on a possible bloody honeymoon. 

We will be right back in a minute.  SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY is just getting started.


SCARBOROUGH:  This young couple on a honeymoon in the Mediterranean.  He disappears.  Blood is found outside his door.  Authorities believe there may have been foul play involved. 

We‘ll be right back with that and more live from Aruba when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.



HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  I don‘t think that Joran and Deepak and Satish don‘t have anything more to add.  I think it‘s that they have a lot more to hide. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Of course, more from Natalee‘s mom, making it clear that she thinks these three boys have a lot to say about what happened to her daughter the night she vanished. 

Right now, let‘s bring in our panel of experts. 

We now are Peter Mohamed.  He‘s an attorney working for Natalee‘s family in Aruba.  Also with us, private investigator and former New York City homicide detective Bo Dietl.  We have got Court TV anchor Lisa Bloom, and also defense attorney Geoffrey Fieger.

Peter, you were in the courtroom today. 

Tell us what went on.  Why are the Kalpoe brothers and Joran so interested in keeping their DNA evidence out of court? 

PETER MOHAMED, ATTORNEY FOR TWITTYS:  No, I wasn‘t—I wasn‘t in court today, but I have been in contact with the prosecution. 

Well, the reason why they appealed, of course, and why they want to keep all the DNA evidence out is, of course, to let me say, make their case as strong as possible.  But from what we heard from the prosecution is that, Friday, the judge will make his verdict.  But I think what they want to try to do right now is, let me say, anticipate on the case, or any possible case that comes to—that goes to court in a few months.

And anything that they can keep out of the case at this instance might be helpful later on in their case. 

SCARBOROUGH:  They will do it. 

Lisa Bloom, let me ask you the question.  It sounds simple, but if they are innocent, why are they afraid to let police take a DNA sample? 

LISA BLOOM, COURT TV ANCHOR:  I think there is no answer to that question, Joe, and it‘s a good one. 

Look, the most important development is this witness who places the Kalpoe brothers at this swamp at about 3:00 a.m., the swamp that is currently being drained that you are following so carefully on your program, Joe.  There‘s three things in this case that are important, location, location, location.  It‘s just like the Scott Peterson case, Joe. 

If Natalee‘s body, God forbid, is found in that location, and they lied about being there during that critical time period, it‘s all over for them, Joe.  But until that body is found or until Natalee is found alive, as we all hope she is, I don‘t think there‘s enough to put the case away against them yet. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Bo Dietl, I was just going to ask you about this investigation.  Obviously, it‘s been botched from the very beginning.  We have been very critical about it.  Most American observers have been very critical about it.  We have been saying for some time, the only way you convict these boys is to get them to break under pressure.

But it‘s looking tonight like they may possibly be able to tie together location, location, location and DNA evidence.  What is your take right now from what you are seeing of this investigation? 

BO DIETL, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  You know, from the beginning, Joe, I didn‘t want to comment about this case because all the erroneous information that‘s been passed through here.

You get one witness saying one thing, one witness saying that.  You got stuff in the news, so you really don‘t know what the facts are.  This is really something that is very good, as far as I am concerned.  If that witness becomes the credible person he is supposed to be and places them where they said they were in bed at the time, at 3:00, and they can prove it, and the body shows up there, you know, you have some real credible evidence for once, because this case has been botched from the beginning. 

They let them out.  They don‘t search the car for two weeks later.  They don‘t put the cars into evidence.  Over and over and over again, this case has been botched.  Finally, I just hope, for that family‘s sake, that this is a crucial piece of evidence, that something, they find something in that pond.  Other than that, if they don‘t find anything in that pond, we are back to the old Dutch law that I don‘t understand too well, let them in, let them out, bring them in, bring them out.  It sounds ridiculous. 

Keep them for 30 days.  You release them, but you can bring them back.  I don‘t understand the Dutch law.  And, as far as I am concerned, you got a young girl, an American, here missing.  I am certainly not going to Aruba.  I am not sending my kids until they break this case. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And I‘ll tell you what.  That would certainly be the last place I would let my 17-year-old son go after he graduated. 

Geoffrey Fieger, let me bring you in and ask you the same question I asked Lisa Bloom.  If your client is innocent, why doesn‘t he surrender his DNA evidence to authorities?  What is he afraid of? 

GEOFFREY FIEGER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  For the exact same reason the attorney just told you earlier.  They don‘t want to make it easier if they ever have to stand trial.

But, remember, this isn‘t too much different, as Lisa said, than the Scott Peterson case.  We didn‘t see Scott Peterson go to jail until his wife and child‘s body washed up on shore.  Until that time, he wasn‘t placed in jail.  And there seems to be less evidence here than—than even in the Peterson case.

BLOOM:  Yes, but...

MOHAMED:  So, nobody should be surprised that they are not in jail. 

BLOOM:  Right. 


BLOOM:  But let‘s not get too far ahead of ourselves with this gardener.  You know, he hasn‘t been cross-examined yet. 

The key question I would have for him is, how is he so sure that it was 3:00 a.m.?  Now, I understand it was a hot night.  He went to go somewhere that was air-conditioned.  That‘s why he was out that night, going to a location, that he needed the air-condition, something we can all relate to here in New York during this heat wave.

But did he look at his watch?  Was there something that made him know for sure it was 3:00 a.m. and not 2:00 a.m., when these gentlemen said that they were, in fact, in that area?  That‘s going to be critical.  And here, until I hear something that locks them into being in that location at 3:00 a.m., I think there‘s still a lot of open questions in this case. 

FIEGER:  It‘s only important if they find her body there. 

BLOOM:  That‘s true. 

FIEGER:  Other than that, it means nothing, other than they were lying about where they were. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Lisa Bloom, do you agree with that...

BLOOM:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  ... unless you find—unless you find Natalee‘s body, you can‘t convict these boys? 

BLOOM:  Well, I don‘t agree with that blanket a statement. 

I would say, at this point, based on these facts, there‘s not enough to convict them without finding her body.  Something else could happen.  Murder cases lead to convictions all the time without a body. 

FIEGER:  No, this is Aruba. 

BLOOM:  But in...


BLOOM:  Well, you know, by the way, before we all blast Aruba, let me say, this is one case.  I live in New York City, where, unfortunately, there are a lot of murders all the time.  People come to New York City on a regular basis.  So, I don‘t think we should indict the entire island or the entire country based on one case. 

FIEGER:  I am not indicting them.  They are less likely, though, to convict solely on circumstantial evidence than we are in this country. 

BLOOM:  Yes.  I am just saying—but when everybody says, I am not going to send my family member to Aruba, I mean, I think we have to be realistic. 

FIEGER:  Yes. 

BLOOM:  Crime happens everywhere. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Hold on.  Hold on a second, though, Lisa.  Here‘s my biggest problem with Aruba.

I mean, the bottom line is, this American girl goes down there.  She‘s last seen with these three young men.  The Aruban authorities decide to let these three guys wander around the island for 10 days.  Instead, they arrest two black guys that happen to be working at a hotel as the security guards next door, a total sham, a total setup. 

BLOOM:  Yes, but...


SCARBOROUGH:  They let these guys clean up the DNA evidence. 

BLOOM:  Yes, but, Joe...


SCARBOROUGH:  I mean, it‘s been botched from the very beginning. 


DIETL:  Joe, it‘s obvious.

BLOOM:  Yes, but, Joe, until the American legal system is perfect and never have has any racial bias, I am not going to say I am not going to go to another country that messes up one case. 


DIETL:  Joe, well, no, no.

Here‘s the idea, Lisa.  The idea is, if they don‘t have proper security there for your child to go, your 17-year-old daughter, and you feel as though they don‘t have proper police, or police there that is going to take...

BLOOM:  No place is 100 percent perfect, Bo.


DIETL:  Well, well, I will tell you right now, from the beginning, first of all, I wouldn‘t send my child.  You can send your kid there. 

FIEGER:  Bo, Bo, it‘s 1,000 times safer than the United States. 

DIETL:  Right.  Right. 

BLOOM:  I‘m sure it is. 

DIETL:  So, why don‘t you go to St. Thomas?  St. Thomas is real safe. 

They only had nine homicides...


SCARBOROUGH:  All right, we‘ll be right back.

FIEGER:  St. Thomas is United States, Bo.

SCARBOROUGH:  We‘ll be right back with our Caribbean cruise in a minute with Bo Dietl.  He‘s going to be our travel director. 

I will tell you what.  I am not going back down there. 

Peter Mohamed, thanks for being with us.  Bo, Lisa, and Geoffrey, stick around. 

We got a lot more straight ahead.  We are going to be talking about Natalee Holloway when we come back.  We are going to have an update live from Aruba, too, where they are draining the swamp where they believe, they believe they may find evidence.

And then, is this picture the answer to what happened to missing newlywed George Smith IV?  Our all-star panel is going to get to the bottom of that one.

And we are monitoring the situation in California where there‘s been a huge explosion at a medical facility.  We are going to have the very latest on that when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Flash news out of California, reports of explosion rocking the Golden State.  We are going to have the latest, plus, more from Aruba. 

But, first, here‘s the latest news you and your family need to know. 


SCARBOROUGH:  You have seen the Running of the Bulls, but not like this.  Mexico‘s version featured at least one animal who was not happy.  And I will tell you what, made a lot of humans not happy that day also.  We will show you what happened. 

Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, that story in a minute.

But, first, let‘s go back live to Aruba and NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski.

Michelle, again, reset the scene.  Tell us what‘s going on behind you and how long it‘s going to be going on. 

KOSINSKI:  Well, when we talked to Natalee‘s mother earlier, she described all these developments today as huge.  She used that word several times, and this out here is huge.  This is a large-scale pumping operation to drain that field and a pond, all based on that witness statement.

This witness says, about 3:00 in the morning, the morning Natalee disappeared, he comes upon a parked car as he is trying to cut through the field to get to a friend‘s house.  He says, as he drives by in that car, he sees Joran van der Sloot and both Kalpoe brothers.  And, as he is driving by, he says they see him spot them.  He claims that they covered their faces and tried to hide. 

So, police and firefighters are out here.  If you will take a look over here, you can see some of those police.  They have a computer up on their car.  They have been working out here all day long.  This pumping operation started last night.  And it‘s difficult.  This is a muddy, murky area, tough to get this volume of water out of here quickly. 

And, earlier, they had some police pumps out here.  Those sank down in the mud.  So, they were able to get some of the oil refineries‘ industrial pumps out here to try to get this water out.  Firefighters are also on the scene.  They think it‘s going to take at least through the night, possibly into tomorrow, to drain this thing.  And then, after that, we are going to see some more serious searching.  We are going to see people with dogs out here, we are told, investigators walking, just on foot, taking a look around. 

And also, EquuSearch, we are told, is going to come back with some equipment, interesting stuff, methane-detecting equipment, also some ground-penetrating radar.  They are going to try just to get as much as they can out of this area before the next storm comes through and fills this place up with water once again. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thanks so much, Michelle.  Greatly appreciate the report.  We will check back with you throughout the hour with any new developments. 

Now let‘s bring back in our all-star panel.  We‘ve got private investigator Bo Dietl, Court TV anchor Lisa Bloom and defense attorney Geoffrey Fieger.  

Bo, I want to go back to you.

You know, this case seemed like a cold case.  It was just sitting there.  So many people were saying two, three weeks ago, it‘s all over.  We‘re not going to—these guys aren‘t talking.  Nothing else is going to happen.  We are never going to get—find out what really happened down there. 

And then, this week, it just seemed like it exploded.  What‘s happening right now?  Why does it seem like this case has picked up so much momentum, eight, nine weeks into the investigation? 

DIETL:  Well, this is the first time that there‘s some real hope.  You know, when you are looking for a body in the ocean, it‘s pretty—pretty hard to find it.  But if you have a body in the swamp here, there‘s a very good, strong possibility, if the body was dumped there, that they will uncover it. 

Hence, then, you will have your body for your homicide.  Again, this is all circumstantial evidence.  The laws of that famous place that Lisa loves there in Aruba are by Dutch law.  And the Dutch law is a little different than our law in America here.  And I don‘t understand and I don‘t know the law well enough to commentate on this thing, because you might be—have to have different probable cause than we have in America. 

BLOOM:  It‘s reasonable suspicion.

DIETL:  So, to sit here, we could talk all night long.  And that‘s why I don‘t even like to talk about this case, because of that reason. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, Lisa...


SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Lisa.

BLOOM:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Let‘s go on to you.

Do you think the $1 million may have something to do with things starting to break down in Aruba? 

BLOOM:  Well, certainly.  But I understand this key new witness who has come forward, he didn‘t come forward on his own for any money.  He was tracked down and found by the investigator that you just had on, Joe.

And, Joe, I want to highlight something very important that Michelle just reported.  And that is the witness saying that these three young men not only were seen in the car at 3:00 a.m. at the swamp, when they claimed that they were already back at home, but that they covered their faces with their hands in an attempt to hide. 

Now, that‘s consciousness of guilt to me.  If, indeed, they are just out having a good time, they drop Natalee off, there‘s no reason on earth why they would need to hide their identity from a witness.  I think that‘s the most important piece of new information that we have. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Geoffrey Fieger, you agree with that? 


They are obviously involved in this case.  I mean, there‘s no question that these people had the last contact with Natalee and that they are obviously involved.  And it‘s also obvious that, unless and until you find her body, they‘re not—nothing is going to happen to them.  They are not going to be convicted of any crime.  And the Dutch authorities—by the way, we are treading thin water here. 

There‘s two things going on.  The government there doesn‘t want people like Bo saying, don‘t send your kids to Aruba.  They want it to appear that they are doing everything possible.  But this pressure from American media is going to produce a backlash in the legal system.  The legal system does not operate like America, and they will not respond to American TV shows saying, get these kids. 

They will do exactly the opposite, and they have.  That‘s why the two boys are out there right now and they are free, because the Dutch legal system will not respond to pressure from American talk shows.  They just won‘t. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know what?  And because of it, a lot of Americans won‘t go to Aruba.

FIEGER:  That may be.

SCARBOROUGH:  And they are going to have to face—they are going to have to face that fact, also. 

Now, to our panel, stay with us, because we have got another big story straight ahead right now. 

And now more on the story we have been bringing you about George Smith, the man who vanished from his honeymoon cruise on July 5, somewhere between Greece and Turkey in the Mediterranean.  Now, last night, we brought you an exclusive look at this photo.  We got it from a passenger on the ship.  It‘s a picture of the awning over the lifeboats in the same area where authorities have reported finding blood.  It could be used in evidence in a story that looks more like a homicide every day that we investigate. 

And last night, we spoke exclusively with a woman named Barbara, who wanted to remain anonymous.  She is a passenger on that ship.  She saw the blood.  She reported it to ship authorities, and her daughter took this photo.  I asked her about the morning George Smith disappeared.  This is what she said. 


BARBARA, PASSENGER ON CRUISE:  It was quite a noisy night.  I woke up a lot, a lot of loud noise going on. 

I was two floors below the Smiths, so I doubt if a lot of this noise came from their cabin.  But what I do recall is that, at one point, I had been asleep and I woke up hearing a woman scream.  And it was loud enough that it woke me up and startled me.  And after that, I think I went back to sleep. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, you heard the woman scream.  It startled you.  Now, the next morning, I understand that you went out.  Your—was it your daughter that took this photo that we have been showing people tonight? 

BARBARA:  That‘s right. 

We got up early for a tour in the morning.  I believe we left the ship before 8:00.  And, within the hour, my daughter showed me her camera, and showed me a photo she had taken that morning.  And, at first, I didn‘t really realize what she was trying to show me, and then she pointed to the picture and said, this is outside my balcony.  I think it‘s blood. 

And, at that time, I recalled being woken up with a scream and wondered if they were connected. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Now, tonight, we dissect what happened that morning and why everybody is being so tight-lipped about it. 

If this blood is evidence, why, as witnesses say, was it scrubbed clean from the deck?  Is the cruise company deliberately sweeping this case under the carpet? 

Now, my next guest has some ideas.  He is an expert in these type of investigations.  Let‘s bring in now maritime attorney Jim Walker. 

Jim, I got to tell you, a couple things don‘t just add up.  For the past two night, we have had exclusive witnesses reporting that they heard screams around 4:00 a.m.  This witness finds blood, daughter takes picture, a shocking photo, looks like the outline of a man‘s body, and yet the ship doesn‘t contact them for five days and the FBI still hasn‘t spoken with them.  What is going on here? 

JAMES WALKER, MARITIME ATTORNEY:  Well, this sounds like a typical botched investigation by the cruise line.  One of the first things that the cruise line will do is, they will notify their security and safety officers. 

That sounds like a good thing to do.  Unfortunately, the officers on these ships, they are not trained in forensics.  They don‘t know how to secure a crime scene.  They are not trained to collect fibers.

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, they are hired guns, Jim, aren‘t they?  They work for the—they work for the—like, this one works for the Royal Caribbean cruise line, right? 

WALKER:  That‘s true.  They are biased.  There‘s no question about it. 

But two things are going on.  One, they are incompetent.  They are not able to collect evidence.  And, two, they are going—they are going to slant that investigation to protect the ship.  We have had many cases, sometimes cases where passengers have been traumatized.  We have represented women who have been raped and sodomized after being given date rape drugs, GBH, liquid ecstasy, where they report blood, blood on pillow cases, sheets, perhaps even on the fiber of the carpet. 

By the time authorities are notified, the cleaning crew has gone into the cabins.  They have pressure cleaned the carpets, so forth and so on.


SCARBOROUGH:  Jim, that looks exactly like what‘s gone on here. 

Bo Dietl, let me bring you in here. 

How does anybody in good conscience clean up—look at that.  It looks like the outline of a body in blood.  And they scrub it down?  What is going on here, Bo? 

DIETL:  Joe, this one, I know a little bit about. 

First of all, the wife and the husband there, there are witnesses to them arguing, where she kicked him in the groin by the bar.  There was a fight going on.  There was an instance between them having a verbal and a physical argument down by the bar.  He was supposedly escorted by three Russian-speaking men to his room.  That was the last time he was seen. 

Now, when you look at that blood on that deck there, on that hood there, I have been at the scene of a lot of homicides.  This is not blood from a fall.  This is blood—I believe that was a stabbing victim, because you hit some kind of artery there.  You look like you got quarts of blood on that—on that decking there.  I believe that man was killed. 

There was also supposed to be blood found in the cabin.  And what happens, I believe, is, he was killed in the cabin, thrown over the side.  He didn‘t go all the way down, and then he was eventually pushed off, because if you could see the blood there...

SCARBOROUGH:  OK, Bo, Bo, hold on a second.  I—I want to go back to the blood.  Let‘s show the picture again of the blood. 

Bo, we are looking at this picture right now.  You—and, obviously, you have got a pool of blood in the middle.  You are saying, from all your years in police investigations, it looks like this was a possible stabbing victim who was then thrown overboard? 

DIETL:  If someone falls out, if someone is pushed off the deck or if he jumps off the deck, he will hit his head.  His head could open up.  You would have one mass of blood there.  You are not going to have it spread across like that.  It looks like something was dragged across and obviously pushed into the water. 

My statement here is, the biggest and the most important witness in this case is the wife, why the wife next day goes to the gym when the husband didn‘t come home.  They are on their honeymoon.  This wife has to be put on a polygraph box immediately.  This investigation should be conducted by a good lawyer, like Geoffrey Fieger, should sue the cruise line for a hundred million dollars for wrongful death.

Let‘s get the witnesses out.  Let‘s get all of them lined up.  Let‘s starting talking to people.  They had a witness that I heard not too long ago that was making statements about him being escorted to the room with three other males.  His wife was very intoxicated.  That‘s where this case lies, with the wife.  And I believe the wife has the answers. 

SCARBOROUGH:  No doubt about it.  And for whatever reason, the wife is still—again, we are not hearing that she has even been questioned extensively. 

I have got to ask our all-star panel the question about, how does a wife wake up in the morning on her honeymoon, doesn‘t notice her husband is missing, and—while you have got all these people that are saying they were awakened by screams at 4:00 a.m. in the morning?  We are going to be asking our all-star panel that question and much more when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns in a minute.


SCARBOROUGH:  You are looking at some of the images of the couple on the cruise.  It looked like they were having a good time, but we understand, obviously, they were also fighting during that night. 

Let‘s bring back our panel. 

I want to go to Jim Walker first. 

Jim, certainly a lot of the evidence points to this woman right now, to the bride.  Her story doesn‘t add up.  But, at the same time, if you are the attorney for the bride, you can talk about how Royal Caribbean basically contaminated the crime scene, scrubbed down all the prints, scrubbed down the blood, and possibly, if she is guilty—and I say if she is—she could walk.  I mean, how often does this happen? 


WALKER:  Well, this case is one of eight to 10 cases in the past year alone.  Most people don‘t know that.  This is part of a larger story. 

There have been almost 10 passengers that have gone missing in the past year.  Now, there‘s about seven to eight million passengers that sail from U.S. ports on these ships each year.  That‘s one for about every million passenger goes missing.  The cruise line analysts will tell you that the capacity is going to go up to 10 million a year, and, by the end of the decade, 20 million.

So, in a 10-year period, you are going to have 150 passengers sailing.  If this statistic holds up, you are going to have 150 passengers go missing.  Now, when you talk to the cruise line, and they are in the business of selling a dream vacation, which is an illusion.  Their—crimes do occur on these ships.  People do go missing.  These—these crimes are rarely solved, because no forensic evidence is retained. 

When I saw this photograph last night on your show, it was the first time in 22 years I have ever seen any forensic evidence ever being photographed.  I don‘t know if it‘s...


SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s shocking.  And the FBI, of course, didn‘t follow up on it.  Royal Caribbean didn‘t follow up on it.  They scrubbed it down. 

Lisa Bloom, let me ask you, does it look like there‘s a royal cover-up on—in this case? 

BLOOM:  You know, Joe, I think I can safely say I am the only one on this panel who has ever been a wife.  And I got news for you.  Wives sometimes go out drinking on cruise ships.  Some sometimes...

SCARBOROUGH:  On their honeymoon? 

BLOOM:  Yes, especially on their honeymoon.  And, God forbid, sometimes we go to the gym without our husband. 

Do you mean to tell me that itty-bitty little woman was able to pick up a grown man, a big, young, healthy guy, somehow kill him and make him bloody first by stabbing him and then throw him overboard? 

SCARBOROUGH:  Lisa, hold on a second. 

BLOOM:  I think that is unlikely without help. 

SCARBOROUGH:  This lady—this lady says she wakes up in the morning, she doesn‘t know that her newlywed husband is not in the room.  And yet everybody around her, everybody around the room—last night, a lady two stories down, what did she say?  She says, I was awakened by a scream in the morning. 

BLOOM:  She heard a bunch of noise.

Yes.  And she said, it was unlikely that it was probably from two stories up.  And if you have ever been on a cruise, Joe—and, by the way, are you going to tell everybody not to go on cruises, like you told them not to go to Aruba?  You know, there‘s a lot of noise at night.  I have been on a lot of cruises.  People are thumping around.

SCARBOROUGH:  Lisa, I will tell you what. 

BLOOM:  People are having a great time.  It‘s not necessarily this particular room.


SCARBOROUGH:  Lisa, you are whitewashing for the tourist industry.  I think you are going to—you‘re changing into a travel agent here, because you are whitewashing for the travel...


BLOOM:  I need a vacation, Joe. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Bo, help me out here, man.  This doesn‘t add up. 


DIETL:  I would like to see Lisa on her honeymoon.  She‘s out having cocktails with her husband.

BLOOM:  I am not currently...


BLOOM:  ... with marriage.

DIETL:  Hold on, Lisa.  Hold on.

All of a sudden, you wake up the next morning, and your husband is gone.  You just go to the gym.  Just forget about him. 


BLOOM:  I got news for you. 


DIETL:  Did you ever see a knife, Lisa?  Did you ever seen anybody dead on the ground?  Have you ever seen that, Lisa?  A woman stabbing a knife into a man, did you ever see that? 


BLOOM:  Yes, I‘ll—no, but I will tell you this, Bo. 

DIETL:  Kill a man, a man who is intoxicated, who is drunk. 

BLOOM:  Only about 4 percent of violent crimes are committed by women;

96 percent are committed by men. 


DIETL:  Excuse me.  And give me some more statistics. 

BLOOM:  What happened to the three big Russian...


SCARBOROUGH:  One at a time. 


DIETL:  Well, I am not saying that she did the killing. 

BLOOM:  Right. 

DIETL:  All I‘m saying is, she has more evidence what these three Russian guys—they could have killed him and threw him over the side also. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Geoffrey Fieger, I got to let—Geoffrey Fieger, I got to let you jump in here. 


DIETL:  What good responsible wife...


SCARBOROUGH:  Go ahead, Geoffrey. 

FIEGER:  Yes, well, the most revealing thing to me is, we haven‘t heard from the wife. 

DIETL:  Right. 

FIEGER:  We see—we see the Holloway mother out there begging people to come and find her daughter.  And we don‘t have the wife anyplace. 

Now, also, who has jurisdiction?  This is in the waters off Turkey.  We know we are never going to find his body.  The forensic evidence is gone.  Who has jurisdiction?  The wife isn‘t going to sue the cruise line.  You are never going to hear about what happens in this case, ever. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s—yes, I am afraid it‘s going to be whitewashed. 

The FBI doesn‘t even follow up on bloody pictures.  It‘s amazing. 

Thanks for being with us, James Walker, Lisa Bloom, Bo Dietl and Geoff Fieger. 

We‘re going to be right back in a second talking about a wild bullfight in Mexico.


SCARBOROUGH:  You know what?  You can play with kittens.  You can play with puppies.  Don‘t play with bulls.  A wild bullfight, it‘s caught on tape, some people seriously injured. 

Plus, you can check out my morning read for the latest stories of the day. 

We‘ll be right back with the bull story.


SCARBOROUGH:  Just minutes ago, this was the scene above a dialysis center in Sacramento, California. 

The building burst into flames and the city‘s rush hour came to an end.  The explosion caused a five-alarm fire which seemed to be fueled from below, raising suspicion that some sort of chemical or oxygen tank from the dialysis center was feeding the flames, which engulfed the entire building. 

And check out this video from Mexico‘s version of the Running of the Bulls.  In Xico, Mexico, 12 bulls were let loose on the streets.  This angry one went wild, trampling, goring and tossing any runner he could sink his horns into.  When all was said and done, one person was killed, 10 people sent to the hospital with serious injuries. 

That‘s all the time we tonight in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  If you have something to say, e-mail me at Joe@MSNBC.com

We‘ll see you tomorrow night in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  Good night.



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