updated 8/10/2005 11:02:03 AM ET 2005-08-10T15:02:03

Guest: Michael Hyatte, George “Jug” Twitty, Anne Bird, Mike Stevens, Katharina Carls, Roy Black, Catherine Crier, Jim Washam, Heidi Fleiss, Michelle Osborn, Samantha Osborn

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Another big show on LIVE AND DIRECT.  Late developments out of Aruba, a police complaint filed just a short time ago, and against, of all people, Natalee Holloway‘s own mother.  And my exclusive interview with the jurors in the Michael Jackson case now has a third juror saying she, too, believes he is a child molester.  Plus, Hollywood madam Heidi Fleiss, back in business.  Find out what she‘s doing now.  She joins us live.

But first tonight, a massive manhunt in Tennessee is happening right now after a deadly jailbreak.  Here are the suspects who are on the run at this hour, George Hyatte and his wife, Jennifer.  NBC‘s Ron Mott is live on the scene in Kingston, Tennessee, with the very latest—Ron.

RON MOTT, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Good evening to you, Rita.  This reads like a Hollywood script, a Hollywood movie, but sadly, this is all too real, those two suspects on the loose somewhere in this area, perhaps outside this area.  Two people, George Hyatte and his wife, Jennifer, apparently involved in this unconventional, if you will, jailbreak this afternoon.

Let‘s show you some video from earlier.  This scene around the Roane County courthouse was crawling with law enforcement officers this afternoon.

This shooting took place about 10:00 o‘clock this morning.  George was coming out of a court hearing this morning with two officers, heading back to prison.  He‘s serving a 35-year prison sentence, apparently two years into that sentence.  His wife was in an SUV, apparently, and he told her to shoot them.  She opened fire, striking one of the corrections officers, fatally wounding him.  That gentlemen‘s name, 56-year-old Wayne Cotton-Morgan (ph).  He was airlifted to a hospital, later died.

Now, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigations is head—headquartering

·        is headlining, I should say, this investigation.  They‘ve asked for assistance from the FBI, local law enforcement officials, as well.

Earlier this afternoon, Edith Hyatte, the suspect‘s mother, spoke to our television cameras.  Let‘s listen to what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDITH HYATTE, SUSPECT‘S MOTHER:  I want to tell my son, if you can hear me, George, you come—you give yourself up, son.  Please give yourself up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MOTT:  OK, they left the scene here allegedly in a Ford Explorer, a blue Ford Explorer that was ditched about a half mile from here.  The suspects then allegedly got into a Chevy Venture—that‘s a van, a gold-colored van—and took off parts unknown at this hour.  Now, when authorities did catch up to that Ford Explorer, they found a large quantity of blood, they say, inside that vehicle.  They believe that Jennifer Hyatte was hit by return fire coming from the second corrections officer.  They are not sure that that‘s the case, but they believe that the officer was able to squeeze off a few rounds and possibly striking Ms. Hyatte.

Now, George Hyatte was, from all purposes, looking at this scene, was fairly securely secured by these two officers, both of these officers armed.  They had Mr. Hyatte, apparently, in leg shackles and in handcuffs.  And when the scene went down and the one officer was shot, the second officer was to have returned fire, Mr. Hyatte allegedly then hopped into the car—excuse me, hopped his way into the car with his wife, and then they took off.

They believe that the a gold Venture van was parked overnight. 

Sometime last evening, they believe that Mrs. Hyatte dropped that van off.  She parked it next to the house where we believe there‘s a fire official here in the area.  He said he noticed that van being dropped off by someone last night, and they believe this was part of this plan to get him out of jail today—Rita.

COSBY:  All right, Ron, thank you very much.  And again, an APB lookout for the two people that you‘re seeing there on the screen, George and Jennifer Hyatte, seen last time in a car, and now we‘re also hearing possibly in a van.  They may have switched their vehicles.

And we‘re joined now by a man who knows the suspect, George Hyatte, better than most people.  His brother, Michael, is here with his first life TV interview tonight.  He is from Knoxville, Tennessee—rather, from Kingston, Tennessee.

Michael, I got to ask you, if the family of the officer who was killed today is watching, what do you want to say to them?

MICHAEL HYATTE, SUSPECT‘S BROTHER:  We‘d like to say that we‘re very remorseful and we‘re sorry that—you know, that this had to happen to them, that they‘re always in our prayers.  It was a needless act.  And I know it don‘t—it probably don‘t make a difference right now, but we‘re all praying for you and our thoughts are with you.

COSBY:  Did you ever expect that your sister-in-law would do this, I mean, go to a courthouse with a shotgun?

HYATTE:  No.  No, I sure didn‘t.

COSBY:  Do you think your brother organized this?  Do you think there was—who do you think was behind this?

HYATTE:  I‘m not sure who was behind it, but I mean, I never thought, knowing Jennifer for a while, that she would be capable of taking a man‘s life.  I wouldn‘t never—never crossed our minds.

COSBY:  Is there anything in your brother‘s background—your brother‘s there—you know, this is not his (INAUDIBLE) first issue.  He‘s there for assault and robbery.  Is there anything in his background that says he would have done something like this?

HYATTE:  Well, you just have to know my brother.  My brother, he was a

good man.  He is a good man.  You know, I was always been told not to judge

a book by its cover because, I mean, deep down, I mean, he has had a good

heart.  You know, he means well, just under situations like this, he just -

·        he panicked, and it‘s—he had no way out.

COSBY:  How do you see this...

HYATTE:  He didn‘t feel like he had a way out.

COSBY:  How do you see this ending, Michael?

HYATTE:  Well, we‘re hopeful it‘ll end with him giving himself up to authorities.  We don‘t want him to get hurt because two wrongs ain‘t going to make a right.  Like I said, he‘s a good man.  If they talk to him, he‘ll surrender.  But a deputy come to our house and told us that, you know, if they caught him up here in Kingston anywhere that they were going kill him.  And you know, killing him ain‘t going to bring the gentleman back.  You know, if we could bring him back, we would.

COSBY:  And I hope he‘s watching tonight, Michael, and I do hope he takes your advice and turns himself in.  We thank you for being with us very much.

And of course, if anybody is watching tonight and has more information about the shooting or the whereabouts of the couple now on the run, authorities are asking for your help.  So please be sure to call the hotline set up by the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation.  That is 1-800-TBI-FIND.  Again, everybody, 1-800-TBI-FIND.

And now we are going to go to late developments out of Aruba and the search for missing Natalee Holloway.  One of the suspects—get this—has filed a police complaint against Natalee‘s mother.  This comes just one day after we showed you this exclusive video of her confronting one of the suspects in the case, Deepak Kalpoe.  She says she just wanted to tell him, you know, and wanted some information from him in terms of whatever he knows about the case.  It is not a restraining order, but we‘re told that he filed a complaint with the authorities.  So essentially, it is a first step toward that.

We‘ve got all the angles covered for you tonight.  NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski‘s standing by live in Aruba, and Jug Twitty, of course, Natalee‘s stepfather.  Jug, we know you‘ve got a lot to say about this development.  But first, I want to go to Michelle for the very latest—Michelle.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Hi, Rita.  That‘s right, yesterday, Beth Holloway Twitty confronted Deepak where he works, just wanted him to answer some questions.  Remember, he and his friends were the last allegedly to have spent time with Natalee Holloway before she disappeared.  And Beth has been desperate for information.  She went in there looking for answers, and just said, Hey, Deepak, look at me.  Talk to me as a mother.  Just tell me what you know.  If you want to clear your name, we‘re willing to help you do that.  She said he wouldn‘t answer her questions and that he most of the time wouldn‘t even look her in the eye.

Well, today he responded to those questions in a big way.  Police say he went to the police department, talked to a detective, and then filed a formal complaint with police against Beth, saying that she was harassing and even stalking him.

So what this means legally is that if she did go to his workplace and continually ask him questions, he might call police.  And now that it is on the record, legal experts tell us that police might try to intervene and try to keep her from doing so, if it was determined to possibly be a problem, but they wouldn‘t necessarily put her under arrest or anything like that.

As you said, this is not a restraining order, it is a complaint filed with police.  So obviously, he felt the need to go on record with this.

But we did talk to Beth‘s attorney tonight, and she called this frivolous.  She says that Beth is merely a mother who was looking for information and did not mean anything malicious.  She did not want to harass or by no means stalk him.  So she feels that this is has no real merit and that will not have to be put to the test because even though Beth was looking for more information, possibly, in the future, she has no intention of stalking Deepak Kalpoe.

COSBY:  Michelle, thank you very much.  We appreciate it.

And now let‘s go to Jug Twitty, if we could.  Jug, first of all, how outrages is this that here Deepak Kalpoe files this complaint against Beth?  How does she feel?

GEORGE “JUG” TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S STEPFATHER:  Well, I mean, you know, it‘s just typical of the way the whole thing‘s going.  You know, if he had nothing to hide, he should have said something to her there.  I mean, actually, I think he—he wouldn‘t say anything.  She was in there approximately 90 minutes with him.  And if it were me and I didn‘t have anything to hide, I would at least, you know, speak to her and tell her that I‘m sorry what happened and I hope we can find Natalee, but I had nothing to do with it.

COSBY:  In fact, there are some reports—and I think these are comments from Beth—asking if Natalee had been sexually assaulted by Joran, if Deepak had anything to do with this.  Did he have any reaction at all, Jug?

TWITTY:  According to Beth, no, no reaction at all.

COSBY:  Were you surprised that he took this move?  Because you know, a lot of people say, you know, of course, have compassion on Beth.  You can understand why she wants answers.  Are you shocked that he went to the step of actually going to the police department?

TWITTY:  No.  I mean, the whole thing—how about the father?  How about Paulus Van Der Sloot?  I mean, what kind of guy is he?  He should have come forward the very next day and come to Beth and myself and said, you know, I want to help you guys find your daughter.  My son was the last one to be seen with her.  You know, we want to help you.  Did he do that?  No.  He went out and hired attorneys the next day.  So I mean, the whole thing is—you know, is rotten.

COSBY:  And I just heard right before the show, Jug, as we‘re looking at some pictures there of Beth stopping by the cafe, that she actually—it wasn‘t intentional.  She was in the area.  Is that right?

TWITTY:  That‘s what she told me, that they were going out there to eat and she said, You know what?  We need to go—I want to go by here and see him.  And you know, I‘m glad she did.  You know, Beth‘s a strong person.  I guarantee you there are a lot of men that watch this—you know, the whole show that we‘re doing—or not show, but I mean, the whole deal from the beginning with Natalee, and I‘ve talked to a lot of people and I get phone calls, probably 50 a night from men and women all over the United States.  And there‘s probably a lot of men out there saying, you know, Man, if I had a wife like that that was that strong and that determined, I—probably that Jug‘s a lucky guy.

COSBY:  Well, we all think you are.  And Jug, we all wish you the best.  Hope you get some good answers soon.  Thank you for being with us.

TWITTY:  OK.  Thank you.

COSBY:  Thanks so much.

Well, it‘s a big night here on the show.  Scott Peterson‘s half-sister joins us me LIVE AND DIRECT.  She has just written him a letter, and you‘ll be surprised to hear what it says, and that is just the beginning.

Still head, LIVE AND DIRECT with Hollywood madam Heidi Fleiss.  Is she really getting back in the business?  Apparently, what happens in Nevada really stays in Nevada.  And next, my exclusive interview with two Jackson jurors is making waves.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATHARINA CARLS, JACKSON JUROR NO. 9:  Yes, I do regret letting him walk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Tonight, an exclusive with another juror who says even if Michael Jackson is a child molester, she doesn‘t regret voting to acquit.  I‘ll ask her why LIVE AND DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Tonight, an interview that you‘ll see only right here.  Convicted murderer Scott Peterson‘s half-sister is writing him a letter and telling us why.  Scott Peterson has been thanking people who believe he‘s innocent via an Internet Web posting.  He says he‘s been getting lots of letters, but his half-sister isn‘t as cordial.  She writes to Scott, quote, “The reality is that you will never walk free.”

Scott‘s half-sister, Anne Bird, joins me now live.  Anne, why did you decide to write a letter?  He‘s been in prison for nine months.

ANNE BIRD, SCOTT PETERSON‘S HALF-SISTER:  Well, you know, I saw him in January, and his reaction was that this was all a really big mistake that he was there, that it was some kind of clerical error, you know, that he was, you know, in jail at all.  And I have let a lot of time go by, and I just wanted to write him a letter to let him know how hard this was for me and my family and that he really owed everyone an explanation for what happened.

COSBY:  And do you think he‘s going to respond?

BIRD:  You know, I don‘t know.  I‘m sure—you know, maybe he‘ll respond, but it‘s probably not going to be the truth or anything close.  Maybe.

COSBY:  I want to show one of the second quotes, that I could, in the letter.  I thought it was really—really hard-hitting him.  We still have a lot of unanswered questions.  You write, “Some day I will be asked how she and Conner died.  It is disgusting to think that I will have to endure forming an answer.  You owe your family an explanation for all of this.”  And actually, it‘s the next graphic, that is the one right there that we‘re seeing there.

How frustrating is it that here it is all this time, and you still don‘t have any answers?

BIRD:  You know, I think that is really one of the reasons why I‘m opposed to the death penalty is because I still want some answers from him.  I think maybe there‘s something to learn from this.  You know, I don‘t know if he‘s been psychologically tested.  You know, but certainly, I mean, this has just been horrific.  You know, it had the ripple effect around so many people.

COSBY:  And even you and your family.  I understand you‘re moving. 

Why?

BIRD:  Right.  You know, we live in Berkeley and we live up above where Laci and Conner‘s bodies washed ashore.  You know, if I drive around my hillside, I have a view of San Quentin also.  And it‘s disturbing.  And you know, we moved there to, you know, make a happy home and have happy memories, and I just really want to relocate and start new and have a different view.

COSBY:  What changed it for you, Anne?  Because I know originally, you and I even talked, you know, early on, and you were obviously supportive of your half-brother at that point.  Then he spent a lot of time with you.  What was sort of the turning point for you, when you said, Look, I think he did it?

BIRD:  You know, it was really when the bodies were discovered.  And you know, I was the first person to phone him, and I said, You know, they found the body of a woman.  And he said, Oh, really?  You know, they‘ll find out it‘s not Laci and they‘ll keep looking for her.  And then I said, Well, they found the body of a baby.  And his words weren‘t right, you know?  He said, Who would do such a thing, and got really upset.  And that, to me, was a very big pivotal point in thinking, you know, was he guilty or innocent.  And I started thinking something‘s not right.

COSBY:  And then he just recently started writing a Canadian Web site, thanking his supporters.  You know, a lot of people in prison get these folks who write letters in.

BIRD:  Yes.

COSBY:  He was responding.  What do you think of the people who are writing him, who say, We believe in you, we think you‘re innocent, you‘re a good guy?

BIRD:  I‘m just amazed that he‘s getting that much of a response.  You know, I know when I talked to Jackie, you know, months ago, you know, she said they got a few letters a week.  That‘s not a tremendous response.  You know, I don‘t—I‘m not sure about that.

COSBY:  And I‘ve heard even the letters have even dwindled since then, even less than that.  Anne, thank you very much.  We appreciate it.

BIRD:  Thank you, Rita.  Thank you very much.

COSBY:  Thank you.

And now to big waves for my exclusive interview with two of the Jackson jurors who voted to acquit the pop star but now say that he is guilty.  We‘ll have an exclusive interview from two jurors who are defending their vote in a minute.  But first, here‘s MSNBC‘s Jennifer London.  She‘s LIVE AND DIRECT with reaction from Jackson‘s California community.

You got a good pulse on things, Jennifer.

JENNIFER LONDON, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT:  Well, hi and good evening, Rita.  We went to a neighborhood hotspot just a few miles from the Jackson family home in Encino, California, and here‘s what some folks are saying.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I really think he‘s a danger to young boys.

LONDON (voice-over):  At a local restaurant, the crowd was glued to the exclusive interview with the two Jackson jurors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I‘m not that surprised that a couple of them disagreed with the actual verdict.

LONDON:  Zach Galulla (ph) followed the Jackson trial closely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I was kind of surprised afterwards, when the verdict came out that he was not guilty, and I almost suspected that something was, like, troubled within the jury.

LONDON:  But Zach and others say they‘re troubled with the timing. 

Why are Ellie Cook and Ray Hultman speaking out now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Well, they should have said that during the trial, should have stood up for what they believed in before they changed their minds and apparently went along with everybody else.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Also, their motives are kind of questionable as to why they‘re doing that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Money.  Pure and simple, money.

LONDON:  Jury consultant Lee Meihls isn‘t so sure.  She worked with the defense team and helped select the Jackson jury.  She says it‘s not the book deals that bother her.

LEE MEIHLS, JURY CONSULTANT:  What worries me is people who have never been on a jury before who are paying attention to this now could be affected by it and then lower the bar, lower the burden of proof, and that would be wrong.

COSBY:  Meihls also says it‘s been her experience that jurors become a family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  We certainly have formed lasting friendships.

LONDON:  And once they step back from the case and get a little distance, they can sometimes see things differently.

MEIHLS:  The dynamic has changed for these two jurors.  They‘re no longer with that family.  Now Ms. Cook is back with her daughter.

LONDON:  And Michael Jackson is back with his family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  It‘s too late.  I mean, he‘s off the hook.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LONDON:  Another viewer I spoke with last night said she was shocked to learn that a juror went to Michael Jackson‘s victory party.  She said she finds that, quote, “appalling.”  And yet another woman that I spoke with last night said, Rita, she is going to reserve making any judgment because she says we simply don‘t know what happened behind closed doors.

COSBY:  Interesting to hear, Jennifer.  Thank you very much.

Well, two more of the Jackson jurors are reacting tonight to that big interview where two of the jurors say that there was pressure to acquit the pop star in the jury room.  Another exclusive tonight, former Jackson juror Katharina Carls joins us now live in her first TV interview since the end of the trial.  She was one of the first jurors in favor of a guilty verdict, but then she changed her vote to innocent.  We also have Mike Stevens, who says Jackson was not guilty.  I want to thank both of you for being with us.  But first, I want to show a quick sample of last night‘s show to everybody.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

What happened that day when the verdict came down?  How bad was the air?

ELEANOR COOK, JACKSON JUROR:  The air reeked of hatred, and people were angry.  And I have never been in an atmosphere like that before.  I just felt that I—that they could turn on me any minute, and there wasn‘t anything I could do about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Pretty strong statements.  Katharina, how intense was it in the jury room?

KATHARINA CARLS, JACKSON JUROR NO. 9:  It got intense towards the end, when—I mean, three of us, voted for guilty.  And you know, some statements were made that I thought were improper, you know, personal attacks.  And just—I was surprised that somebody would make such a statement.

COSBY:  I heard even in your case, you‘re Indonesian, I believe, and they were saying maybe you don‘t understand the American justice system.  I‘m sure—was that offensive to you?  It must have been.

CARLS:  Not offensive, but I just feel very disappointed.  I thought I know, you know, these people for four months, and they are well educated people, and I didn‘t expect that from any of them.

COSBY:  Mike, how did you feel?  Was it pretty heated in there?

MIKE STEVENS, JACKSON JUROR NO. 7:  I thought we all got along pretty good.  I mean, we did get along.  We did have our moments when it did get pretty heated, but it calmed down after a little while.

COSBY:  Not according to Ray and Ellie.  They said it was just horrible.  In fact, Ellie last night said the air was thick and full of hatred.

STEVENS:  Where?  When was it filled with hatred?  I mean, how was it hatred?  I‘d love to know—I‘d love to get her opinion on how there was hatred in the air.

COSBY:  Well one of the things she said was that, you know, here she -

·        I‘m a 79-year-old woman, they were saying, You don‘t know what you‘re talking about.  That‘s pretty tough talk.

STEVENS:  You know what‘s funny is that I think she said this to Paulina.  She said, Honey, I‘m 79 years old, I can do whatever I want to do, you know?  And so how could she say that she felt threatened when she came up with a comment like that?

COSBY:  Katharina, I want to get back to you because you changed your vote.  Why did you change it?

CARLS:  Yes.

COSBY:  Originally, you said he was guilty and then you were with Ray and Ellie, and then you switched to innocent over the weekend.

CARLS:  Yes.  It was very hard for me because I believed the boy and I believed that Michael is a child molester.  And so I spent the whole weekend thinking about it, and I still cannot get past the reasonable doubt.  There is (INAUDIBLE) reasonable doubt there, so I have to vote not guilty.

COSBY:  But you just said to me that you believe Michael Jackson is a child molester, is that correct?

CARLS:  That‘s right.

COSBY:  But you let him walk, based on the law, is what you‘re saying.

CARLS:  Well, I have to—I have to follow the law, yes, and the jury instruction.

COSBY:  And you‘re just saying that there just wasn‘t enough evidence, based on what you looked at in the law?

CARLS:  I—well, there—it‘s just the family background.  I kept asking myself, how—is there any slight possibility that this boy might lie at all?  And my answer was yes.  So I have to vote not guilty, even if there is a slight possibility.

COSBY:  But still in your heart of hearts, you‘re telling me that you believe Michael Jackson is a child molester.

CARLS:  Yes.  Yes, I do.

COSBY:  I want to show a comment, if I could—this is from last night‘s interview—about the jury foreman.  Let‘s take a listen to what Ellie and Ray had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOK:  He said if I could not change my mind or go with the group or be more understanding, that he would have to notify the bailiff, the bailiff would notify the judge, and the judge would have me removed.  I kept my position that I felt Michael was guilty.

COSBY:  So if you stuck your guns that Michael Jackson was guilty, the foreman said you‘re going to be kicked off.

COOK:  I‘m going to be removed or kicked off, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Mike, were you there and did you hear the foreman—Katharina told us before the show she heard the foreman use that language.  Did you hear that?

STEVENS:  I didn‘t hear it like that, but what I heard why that was said was because she kept making remarks, and she made several remarks involving her own opinion and the way her heart felt.  And when you‘re doing deliberations, you‘re not supposed to have heartfelt ideas or whatever about things, you‘re supposed to follow what the law says and what the evidence shows, not what your heart feels.  Am I right?

COSBY:  Well, absolutely.  You got to look at the evidence and look at the facts, and both of you did, and again, both of you acquitted him, even though Katharina, that‘s a very strong statement you still believe, as you said, that he is a child molester.  Very strong stuff.  Thank you, both of you, very much.  We appreciate you being with us.

And coming up next everyone;  What does that mean for Michael Jackson?  Does this happen all the time in jury rooms?  I‘ll be joined LIVE AND DIRECT by famed legal experts Catherine Crier and Roy Black.  And the interview we promised.  How does the most famous Hollywood madam earn an honest living these days?  Heidi Fleiss will tell us LIVE AND DIRECT coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER:  From MSNBC world headquarters, here is Rita Cosby.

COSBY:  Well, we just heard from two other Jackson jurors, Katharina Carls and also Mike Stevens.  Joining us now is criminal defense attorney Roy Black and Court TV news anchor Catherine Crier for reaction. 

Catherine, I‘ve got to go to you.  First of all, this was pretty stunning, I thought.  You know, now we have a third juror who‘s saying, “I believe Michael Jackson is a child molester.” 

CATHERINE CRIER, COURT TV NEWS ANCHOR:  Absolutely.  I think this is pretty disconcerting for someone who spent all these years in the criminal justice system.  I‘m very, very uncomfortable with all of these jurors, Rita.

Great interviews on your behalf, but, in fact, these people ought to know—just watch “Law and Order,” for God‘s sake—that you go to the bailiff if there‘s a problem, you go to the judge if there‘s a problem.  But the foreman of a jury does not kick anyone off.  And for them to basically sell out so easily, I find very troublesome. 

COSBY:  And Roy, what is your reaction?  I mean, you know, first on the issue of Katharina Carls, who we just heard, because she said, “Look, I do think he‘s a child molester, but based on the letter of law,” she at least looked at the things—you know, theoretically looked through the steps and she still said, “That‘s it.” 

This was a responsible juror, in that sense, from the letter of the law, correct? 

ROY BLACK, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Absolutely.  You have to give her a lot of credit, despite her personal feelings.  And I‘m sure what happened, that she thought the earlier testimony from ‘93, ‘94, ‘95 was pretty compelling, but the actual accusations in the case were so weak that it certainly wasn‘t proven beyond a reasonable doubt.  So you have to give her credit to be able to sift the good from the bad.

COSBY:  Catherine, on the other hand, you know, the two jurors who I did interview yesterday just talked about intense pressure in the jury room.  You know, the older lady said this—and, in fact, Katharina Carls confirmed to us, indeed, some of these statements were made.

And what the juror said to me was, “Walk a day in my shoes.”  You know, maybe you and I might not have caved, but they said, “How can you say that?  You‘re not 79 years old,” you know, “You didn‘t just lose your friend, go in and just be very emotional in the jury room.”

CRIER:  I still have a real problem with that.  What Roy said is absolutely correct.  When I first heard the verdict of the jury—I mean, I understood, having watched all the testimony, that there were real questions about the credibility of the accuser‘s mother, particularly, which reflected on the accuser.  And you can understand a not-guilty verdict. 

But, in fact, if two or more of the jurors simply, quote, “caved”

because they some how felt intimidated, particularly when you look at Ray -

·        I mean, this isn‘t just—and this grandmother did not strike me as some lily-livered soul, when she came out there during the initial jury conference, and said, “Well, you know, that woman was wagging her finger.  Don‘t you wag your finger at me, lady.” 

She came across as pretty tough.  And, in fact, if they somehow, you know, caved because they felt, quote, “intimidated,” then I think that‘s a real blow to the jury system. 

COSBY:  And what is the lesson for the jury system, Roy?  I mean, do you think some people are going to take something away from this and change what they do when they go in the jury room? 

BLACK:  Well, Rita, I‘m reminded of a statement by Teddy Roosevelt about one of our Supreme Court justices.  He said, “That man has a backbone carved out of a banana.”  And that‘s what we have with these jurors. 

I mean, if they really believed that he was guilty, these threats should not have been enough to change their minds.  I‘m going to go to the judge?  Well, what‘s wrong with going to the judge?  I mean, you should be happy somebody should go to the judge or the bailiff. 

Listen, let‘s face it.  In almost every jury deliberations, they‘re going to get high-spirited and yelling at times.  I mean, that‘s just what happens in a discussion among people.  You shouldn‘t cave in if you really have a firm belief in guilt or innocence. 

So I‘m sorry, but I‘m not particularly impressed with the integrity of these jurors. 

COSBY:  Well, Roy Black and Catherine, we thank you both very much, two of the best in the business.  Thanks for being with us tonight.

CRIER:  You bet. 

BLACK:  Thank you, Rita. 

COSBY:  And we‘ve got some breaking news at this hour.  We want to give you an update on the massive manhunt for the two suspects who were involved in that deadly jailbreak in Kingston, Tennessee.  Joining me now on the phone, we‘ve got police chief Jim Washam. 

Chief, where is the search right now?  I understand you might have some leads you‘re following up on now? 

JIM WASHAM, KINGSTON POLICE CHIEF:  Yes, we have had several leads coming in all afternoon.  And we‘re following up on those as soon as we get them.  We‘re trying to send officers out to try to take care of these sightings and possibilities.

And right now, we are working on some more information that we just got in just a little bit ago that I can‘t release at this time.  But we‘re following every lead that‘s coming in. 

COSBY:  Now, the information you got, is that about their whereabouts? 

Is that a tip from a family or friend? 

WASHAM:  We have got a—we have got some information on their possible direction of travel.  So we‘re trying to follow up on that, see if we get any leads that way. 

COSBY:  Chief, what do you believe they‘re in?  Because we know they switched vehicles before.  What do you believe they‘re traveling in?

WASHAM:  Well, right now, it‘s hard to say.  I don‘t believe they‘re in a van that they‘ve left Kingston in.  I believe this has been planned out, and that they have probably got in a third vehicle. 

And we don‘t know that.  We don‘t have any information to corroborate that.  But we do have—we do know this was planned out.  And they went to extensive trouble to plan all this out.  And now what they‘re doing is they‘re following through with their plan. 

COSBY:  And, Chief, I‘ve got to ask you, how concerned should people be out there?  I mean, this woman already shot and killed an officer, loaded shotgun.  People should be on the lookout.

WASHAM:  Yes, they should be on the lookout.  It was not a shotgun. 

It was a handgun. 

COSBY:  Oh, OK, it‘s a handgun.  That‘s the first I‘ve heard of that. 

WASHAM:  It was a handgun.  You know, we do consider them armed and dangerous, because they took the life of an armed correctional officer.  And you know, they are—you know, they‘re going to follow through their plan until they‘re stopped.

And whatever‘s in their way, whether it be another officer or an individual from the public gets this their way, you know, they‘re prepared to follow through their plan. 

COSBY:  All right, well, Chief, we appreciate it.  If you get any more updates, please touch base with us later on in the show.  We appreciate it.

And we‘re looking at a picture of the two of people right now that the chief and all of his officers are looking for.  Hopefully, he does have a good lead to locate them.  And, indeed, these two individuals are George and Jennifer Hyatte, involved in the shooting of an officer out of a courthouse of Tennessee. 

And if you have any information, again, call the number on your screen, 1-800-824-3463. 

And we‘re going to continue to follow up on this story.  But up next, Heidi Fleiss joins us LIVE & DIRECT.  What is it like being a madam to the rich and famous?  And wait until you hear what she is doing next.  There she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OPERATOR:  Hello?

SAMANTHA OSBORN, 5-YEAR-OLD SAVED MOTHER‘S LIFE:  My mommy is having a real bad seizure.  And I‘m all alone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Just ahead, she‘s the most famous Hollywood madam, and she‘s now starting a whole new business.  Is it legit?  Heidi Fleiss tells me LIVE & DIRECT, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Well, we all know sex sells.  And perhaps no one knows that better than Heidi Fleiss.  And tonight, new details of her plans for a brand-new business. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY (voice-over):  The Hollywood madam became a household name in the ‘90s when her high-priced hookers was busted in an undercover sting operation.  Then came word she had a little black book filled with the names of the rich and famous. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Heidi, are you going to name names?

COSBY:  It put Hollywood in a panic.  And she eventually named names, including actor Charlie Sheen. 

Fleiss grew up in an affluent neighborhood, her dad a well-known pediatrician.  She started a babysitting business at age 12.  But she was seduced by the world‘s oldest profession.  And, by age 25, she was making millions. 

But after her arrest and a high-profile trial, Fleiss was sent to prison.  She served more than three years behind bars.  In recent years, she‘s battled drug abuse and, most recently, made headlines for her tumultuous relationship with troubled actor Tom Sizemore. 

Through it all, Fleiss has continued to profit off her notoriety and the public‘s obsession with sex.  She‘s opened up an online adult shop and has even written her life story.  And she‘s now poised to make a major comeback. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY:  And Heidi Fleiss joins us now LIVE & DIRECT to tell us about her new business.  Heidi, what are you doing? 

HEIDI FLEISS, FORMER HOLLYWOOD MADAM:  One thing, Rita.  I never named names.  The only reason Charlie Sheen‘s name came out, because his traveler‘s checks were in my wallet. 

COSBY:  No, that‘s fair enough.

FLEISS:  Yes.

COSBY:  Exactly.  No, fair enough.  You did not name names.

FLEISS:  Never named names.

COSBY:  Very good point.  What are you doing now?

FLEISS:  I‘m opening up a brothel in Nevada, where it‘s legal.  And I‘m proof that prison does work, because I‘m going to do what I did where it‘s legal.  And I‘m going to do it, a very opulent, decadent—it‘s all about privacy and pleasure. 

And no one has done it before.  I‘ve researched it over a year and a half all the sex businesses out there, the different brothels and what not.  And let me just say, I say six months, I‘ll be open and running. 

COSBY:  And how do you feel about being a madam again?

FLEISS:  Really, being a madam, it doesn‘t thrill me.  My long-term goals are more of -- 85 percent of the wealthiest people in the world, their wealth derives from real estate.  So my other goals are to build affordable housing.  But for right now, it‘s a brothel. 

COSBY:  So you‘re planning on doing the real estate business down the road?

FLEISS:  Oh, yes.  I‘ll actually be doing them side-by-side.  But I have to do the madam thing, because that‘s what I‘m known for. 

So one of my things is, once you do something great, never do it again.  But I just want to go do it legally.  And I can run circles around everyone out there who is doing it. 

COSBY:  Now, speaking about running circles, I understand some of your competitors are not happy that you‘re coming to town.  They‘re worried about you. 

FLEISS:  Yes, it‘s crazy though, because all I‘m going to do is bring them business, because they‘re smarter than me.  They‘re not competitors.  Everyone could afford what they‘re selling.  Not everyone could afford what I‘m selling. 

And my philosophies are different than anyone out there.  And how they run it is up to them.  It might sound hypocritical, but I just look at prostitution differently than they do because I‘m a woman. 

COSBY:  Now, who are the women who are going to work for you, speaking of women? 

FLEISS:  Well, you know, women, Rita.  We‘re fickle.  We have our periods, this, that.  You don‘t take the woman right to the last moment.  And I will have the most beautiful woman on Earth there. 

COSBY:  Now, speaking of beautiful woman, Nicole Kidman.  There was talk that she was going to play you, but was, what, too old? 

FLEISS:  Well, somehow—I don‘t know, that came out.  And if I was Nicole Kidman, that‘s terrible how it came out.  It came out very horrible towards her. 

I think she‘s beautiful.  She‘s my first choice.  I wish it was Nicole Kidman.  And the byline was so cruel and mean, and it should never have been that way, because it was taken out of context. 

COSBY:  Yes, and I thought it was terrible, too.  I was saying, Nicole Kidman, she‘s beautiful.  She couldn‘t play you in a movie?  It‘s incredible. 

Talk about the moral climate.  You know, you talked about then and now.  Same business.  How‘s the moral atmosphere in America now? 

FLEISS:  Well, let me tell you this:  One day I‘m in prison, I‘m on the rec field.  It sounds fancy, but it‘s like a Mojave Desert with a perimeter trucks with guns faced at you. 

I‘m reading “USA Today.”  And it says how the government is running the Mustang Ranch, which is a brothel, for income tax evasion, while I‘m sitting in the penitentiary.  So I just threw my paper up in the air and said, “Pimp on.”

(LAUGHTER)

COSBY:  Speaking of...

FLEISS:  You know?

COSBY:  Speaking of crazy comments...

FLEISS:  It‘s like Terri Schiavo and Dr. Kevorkian.  That makes sense, you know?

COSBY:  And there is a little hypocrisy out there.

FLEISS:  But let me tell you about sex.  No one knows this business better than me, Rita.  I will have the most beautiful women, the most opulent, decadent structure.  I‘m going to pick 20 of the finest designers on Earth.  I‘m going to give them 1,400 square feet to go known themselves out. 

It‘s just like how Mark Twain had Tiffany design part of his house.  I‘ll start off with maybe a Versace bungalow, a Cartier, and so whatnot, whatnot.  It‘ll be great. 

COSBY:  Well, we‘re going to be watching.  And finally, I understand you‘re not going to be doing too many more interviews after this.  You know, you‘ve been well-known at this.  But I hear you‘re going to sort of become a little bit of a recluse in the future?

FLEISS:  Well, absolutely.  You know, I‘m a businesswoman.  And actually—and I was a criminal.  What criminal wants to be famous? 

Fame was never my thing.  It was success.  And I‘m very focused in one direction.  And I want to—I have to stay consistent with my goals to achieve them.  And being on television isn‘t one of them. 

COSBY:  Well, I‘m glad you‘re on TV with me.  And we‘ll be watching. 

It‘s always fun to have you on, Heidi.  Thanks so much.

FLEISS:  I‘ll always make exceptions for you. 

COSBY:  Thank you, thank you very much.  Good to have you on.

FLEISS:  And maybe, if you‘re not married, I‘ll cater to—one men for women. 

(LAUGHTER)

COSBY:  We‘ll keep it in mine. 

And coming up, a real twist here, one of my real heroes.  A 5-year-old girl thinks fast and she saved her mother‘s life.  There she is.  She‘s beautiful.  They join us both LIVE & DIRECT with their amazing story.

Plus, remember this woman?  She pushed her story of kidnapping to the cops.  Now the former runaway bride is pushing something completely different.  It‘s “Caught by Cosby,” and it is coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Tonight, we want to share an amazing story with you of someone that we‘re calling Rita‘s real hero.  It‘s a little girl who is only 5 years old. 

Samantha Osborn woke up to find her mom having a serious seizure.  And she picked up the phone and called 911. 

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

OPERATOR:  Hello?

SAMANTHA OSBORN, 5-YEAR-OLD WHO SAVED MOTHER‘S LIFE:  My mommy is having a real bad seizure.  And I‘m all alone.

OPERATOR:  OK.  How old is your mommy?

S. OSBORN:  Five.

OPERATOR:  You‘re 5-years-old?  What‘s your name?

S. OSBORN:  My name is Samantha (INAUDIBLE) Osborn.

OPERATOR:  Samantha.  OK, Samantha, OK.  I want you to take a deep breath, OK?  Take a deep breath and let it out.  We‘re going to have an ambulance on the way right now, all right?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

COSBY:  What a great story.  We‘re joined now by Michelle Osborn and her beautiful daughter, that gorgeous girl there, our little hero, Samantha. 

Michelle, let me start with you.  You must be so proud of Samantha.  Where did you train her, and why did you think it was important to train her for this? 

MICHELLE OSBORN, 5-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER SAVED LIFE:  Because I had my first seizure last February.  And I wanted her to know that 911 was there, in case something like this happened. 

COSBY:  Now, you had your seizure, and what, you were kicking her, right, and that‘s how she was alerted to you?

M. OSBORN:  Yes, I fell of the bed, and ended up kicking her.  And that‘s how she knew I was having a seizure. 

COSBY:  It‘s amazing.  I want to play a little bit more of the 911 call, because it is just incredible to hear.  Let‘s have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OPERATOR:  Do you know how to spell your last name, Samantha?

S. OSBORN:  Um, no.

OPERATOR:  No, OK.  Do you have—does Daddy live with you?

S. OSBORN:  Yes.

OPERATOR:  Yes.  Is he at work?

S. OSBORN:  Yes.

OPERATOR:  Do you know where he works, Samantha?

S. OSBORN:  No.

OPERATOR:  No, you don‘t know where he works?

S. OSBORN:  No.

OPERATOR:  OK.  Do you know if there‘s a phone number for where your daddy works?

S. OSBORN:  No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And, Samantha, I‘ve got to ask you, you must be so proud, Samantha?  Can you hear me, Samantha? 

M. OSBORN:  She is talking to you. 

COSBY:  Can you hear me, Samantha? 

S. OSBORN:  Yes. 

COSBY:  Yes.  First of all, where did you learn to dial 911?  We‘re so proud of you. 

S. OSBORN:  My mommy. 

COSBY:  Were you scared when you saw her kicking? 

S. OSBORN:  What? 

COSBY:  Were you scared when you saw her kicking? 

S. OSBORN:  Yes. 

COSBY:  And I understand your mom got you a great little gift, a thank-you gift.  What did she get you?  Was it a doll? 

S. OSBORN:  A Winx, a Winx club doll.

COSBY:  Oh, that‘s great. 

Michelle, you must be so proud of her.  What advice would you have for other parents? 

M. OSBORN:  Teach them 911 and an emergency list of numbers. 

COSBY:  Absolutely.  Well, she certainly is a big hero and a big inspiration to all of us.  Michelle and Samantha, I think you deserve Winx club dolls for the rest of your life.  Thank you very much. 

M. OSBORN:  Yes, she does. 

COSBY:  She certainly does.  Thank you to both of you.  We appreciate it. 

And coming up, high-tech peeping toms are apparently lurking everywhere, but this one didn‘t realize that he‘s “Caught on Cosby” on tape.  It‘s incredible.  We‘re going to show that to you, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Well, you‘ve heard about sick people using camera phones to catch you in the buff.  Well, tonight, the tables are turned on one perv, and it‘s a “Caught by Cosby” moment. 

Take a look at this guy.  Police in Missouri caught him on a surveillance video, at a department store using a cell phone to take pictures up women‘s skirts.  Police say Daniel Thurman shot about six seconds of video.  And the woman didn‘t even know it was happening.  Police say Thurman has since confessed to doing this more than once. 

Also “Caught by Cosby” tonight, the runaway bride in Georgia.  Jennifer Wilbanks is working off 120 hours of community service for telling police she had been kidnapped when she really just got cold feet before her wedding and ran away.  We all know that story very well. 

Well, she told local reporters that it had been a long time since she had mowed a lawn, but she‘s got a lot more grass to cut.  She still has 88 hours, yes, 88 hours to go.  And maybe then she may be ready to walk down the aisle. 

Well, we have another big exclusive interview coming your way this week.  And we‘re going to give you a little sneak peek.

Nathaniel Brazill is just 18 years old, but he‘s already spent five years behind bars for shooting and killing his teacher in a Florida classroom.  Now he‘s telling me how it happened and answering some very tough questions. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Can you tell us that you‘re not going to kill someone again? 

NATHANIEL BRAZILL, CONVICTED KILLER:  Yes, I can. 

COSBY:  A lot of people say prison makes someone tougher. 

BRAZILL:  That may be the case, but not with me. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And he‘s facing 23 years more behind bars.  And this week, you‘re going to hear what he‘s got to say to the family of his victim.  It‘s pretty stunning.  That‘s ahead and later this week on LIVE & DIRECT. 

And that does it for us tonight.  Everybody, I‘m Rita Cosby.  We hope you enjoyed the show.  We‘re going to be back tomorrow night, but don‘t touch that dial.  “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” starts right now with my pal, Joe. 

Take it away.

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”:  Hey, thanks a lot, Rita.  Another great show tonight.

COSBY:  Thank you.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END  

Content and programming copyright 2005 NBC.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED.  Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon NBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

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