updated 8/11/2005 10:55:15 AM ET 2005-08-11T14:55:15

Guest: Jennifer Johnson, Rachel Maddow, Susan Miller, Max Kellerman

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST:  Thanks, Joe. 

If you've been watching—we hope you have been—you know that they have been apprehended.  Both of them, the Hyattes, Jennifer, her husband, George, subject of a massive manhunt.  There was a press conference just about 15 minutes ago in Kingston, Tennessee, announcing some of the details of their capture.  We want to show you now a quick sound bite from that press conference.  Then we're going to dive into it over the first course of this hour. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK GWYN, DIRECTOR, TENNESSEE BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION:  Agents with U.S. Marshal Service, the FBI, and the local Columbia police apprehended George and Jennifer Hyatte without incident.  We are processing the motel there now for evidence.  We have found weapons.  We don't know if it's the murder weapon, but we have found weapons, and we're processing those as we speak. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  That was Mark Gwyn of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigations, recapping part of what happened tonight.  For more, we go to Jennifer Johnson.  She's a spokeswoman for that same department. 

Jennifer, thanks for joining us.  Tell us what you know. 

JENNIFER JOHNSON, SPOKESWOMAN, TENNESSEE BUREAU OF INVESTIGATIONS: 

Thank you. 

Well, we're relieved, I guess, is the first thing that I would like to say.  Within the last hour, we received information here that authorities with the latest U.S. Marshal Service, the FBI, and the local police in Columbus had found these individuals in a motel located in Columbus. 

They—a SWAT team was called to the scene.  They asked the Hyattes to come out, and believe it or not, they did. 

CARLSON:  Is there any indication how law enforcement located them in

this hotel, in Columbus?  Were they tipped off by someone there?  Were they

·         was the couple followed to the motel?  What do we know about that?

JOHNSON:  Once we pinpointed them to a certain area, earlier in the evening, really just about four hours ago, it was only a matter of following up on various leads and working intelligence on the back end. 

We don't like to get into a lot of the details of what we're doing behind the scenes to try and track down fugitives, because it would hinder us from catching them, obviously, in the future.  We don't want to give that information out. 

But the tips played a vital role in this, and I guess if anything, we

owe the public tonight for just being so vigilant, and for calling us.  We

·         I shudder to even think how many tips and leads that we have received at our command post here over the last day and a half. 

CARLSON:  What's the condition, do you know, of the Hyattes?  There were reports one of them, possibly Mrs. Hyatte, was injured, having been shot at the courthouse yesterday.  Is that true?  And can you tell us what kind of shape they're in?

JOHNSON:  Well, we've believed all along that Mrs. Hyatte was the person who was injured.  There were some conflicting reports out there about whether he may have been injured, too.  He was not.  What we have found is that she did have some injuries, a gunshot wound, and he did not have any injuries when he was found. 

CARLSON:  Was she treated for that gunshot wound in the 36 hours or so they were on the run?

JOHNSON:  You know, I couldn't really speak to that just at this juncture.  I am sure that down the road, once we really put all the pieces of this puzzle together, we'll be able to answer a lot more of those questions and be more specific. 

CARLSON:  Was the couple armed when they were apprehended?  What kind of weapons did they have with them?

JOHNSON:  We did find a gun.  The couple was in possession of a gun.  Of course, we wouldn't know for quite some time whether that was actually the murder weapon, but of course, that is part of the ongoing investigation. 

CARLSON:  Were you surprised there wasn't a shoot-out?  There's been so much speculation over the past day and a half about what the end of this saga would look like, and almost everybody seemed to agree it would be ugly, there would be a shoot-out.  People would die.  Are you surprised that it ended so peacefully?

JOHNSON:  Well, I think because of the fact that they had—well, the violence that was displayed in this parking lot made us believe they were capable of anything, but I guess perhaps maybe they were worn down.  Maybe they felt the heat.  You know, they had been running all afternoon.  We had been minutes behind them on more than one occasion, and perhaps they just decided it was time to call it quits. 

CARLSON:  One final question: were the family members helpful with tips, do you know?  Did they weigh in on this?

JOHNSON:  To my knowledge, they have been.  In fact, I've seen several family members on television, pleading, essentially, with these two to come forward.  So, you know, I don't really have any indication that the family has been anything other than forthcoming with us.  Now, there may be things that I am not aware of, but that's what I know. 

CARLSON:  All right.  Jennifer Johnson, Tennessee Bureau of Investigation.  I have the feeling you're going to be up late.  Thanks for joining us. 

JOHNSON:  Thanks. 

CARLSON:  Now, we go to Rita Cosby, who has—will definitely be up late, who has been in Tennessee all day covering this story, and I think she has details on how this couple was apprehended—Rita. 

RITA COSBY, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  Yes, in fact, I just found out some law enforcement officials have told us exclusively that the way that they were caught is that Jennifer Hyatte actually went to a hospital in Columbus, Ohio.  Remember, she was wounded, because officers were shooting rounds at her. 

They believed that she was shot somewhere in her shoulder or somewhere else, but apparently she was seriously wounded, so much so, as a nurse, knowing what could happen if you go to a hospital, and you know that everyone's looking for, she still went to this hospital in Columbus, Ohio. 

And apparently, they saw a wanted picture of her on the board.  They recognized her right away and then they tipped authorities off.  And that's how they knew immediately that they were in Columbus, Ohio. 

Again, the big scoop, and we just found this out, that apparently they were—they were recognized when Jennifer Hyatte walked in with some serious injuries to a Columbus, Ohio, hospital.  Then somebody on the staff there recognized her, called authorities, and then apparently swarmed in on them. 

And apparently they ran away from the hospital.  I'm getting some indications that they were able to leave the hospital, get back to their hotel, and that's, indeed, where they were apprehended in the hotel room.

But authorities had a good tab on them, because they knew they were in that area of Erlanger, Kentucky, which is right on the border of Kentucky and Ohio.  So they had an APB out, an all points bulletin looking for them in that area. 

And once they knew they were in that region, and then suddenly they got that call from the hospital, and apparently somebody there said we are sure this is the woman you're looking for, swarmed on the complex, and then arrested them just a few minutes later.  Big tip finding out how the bust went down. 

CARLSON:  Well, that certainly is a big tip.  So just to make sure I understand this, she was confronted at the hospital, possibly with her husband, by some sort of authority, and they escaped from the hospital?

COSBY:  Yes.  We understand—we're not quite sure if she was confronted or maybe had a sense that things were not going right, that maybe people were whispering, looking at them.  We know that they arrived at the hospital and then apparently rushed out.  So maybe they had gotten the sense that people were on to them and left. 

It's not clear if they were physically followed by authorities, but somehow they tracked them down from there.  It sounds like they probably followed them or got some tip from there to lead them to the hotel, which I'm told was not too far away from the hospital.

But apparently, she was in very, very bad condition, because here she is a nurse.  Remember, Tucker she worked at the prison.  That's where she met George Hyatte.  She knows sort of the procedures.  She knows when she's a nurse, that people are going to go in.  She knows this is all points bulletin, massive manhunt, all these federal agencies.  So she must have been in very bad condition and probably thought that maybe being so far away, they would not recognize her. 

So probably got a sense somehow, we're not clear.  If they followed her, chased her, or if they just had a sense that people were on to them. 

CARLSON:  I'd imagine that every hospital in the entire region had received one of those bulletins, to be on the lookout for her. 

Do we have any indication how Mr. Hyatte got his shackles off?  Apparently, he was shackled in about four places, really bound.  How did he get those off?

COSBY:  Yes, we don't know that yet.  In fact, we'll try to find that out. 

I was talking to the sheriff earlier today, Tucker, and again you point out, you know, he had a hip chain basically.  He had cuffs.  He had a guard on top of the cuffs, not just handcuffs, but sort of a double lock.  Also a firm metal lock on top of that, and then he had leg shackles.  It's pretty incredible. 

We tried to put my producer in it earlier, and you can see, very difficult to walk, very difficult mobility.  And he said the only way that somebody could get this off is if you had a hack saw.  There are some pretty sophisticated drills that you're able to do this, and then the other choice is a key. 

Remember, this is a woman who had some contacts in this area, so it could have been any one of those options to get it off, but they pretty soon believed after—pretty much after he was gone out of here, this is a guy who planned this out. 

We found out that they were staying exclusively in a hotel about five minutes away from here.  Ironically, it's the hotel that we checked into tonight.  And we found out that they were staying at that hotel.  They were staying there for two or three days.  This is the wife, Jennifer Hyatte, as he was in there for a court proceeding. 

CARLSON:  Wait. 

COSBY:  This was well thought out. 

CARLSON:  Wait, I'm sorry to interrupt you.  You're saying that you checked into the Best Value Inn?  Into the same hotel they were staying in?

COSBY:  No.  We checked in—they have been a series of hotels, Tucker.  But we checked into a Comfort Inn, which is about five minutes away from here.  And as we were checking in, we said, look how close we are to the courthouse, and someone there basically saying, this is where they stayed. 

It turns out, indeed, Jennifer Hyatte, before they planned the escape, she came in—remember the escape happened on Tuesday morning.  She checked into that hotel Sunday night, Monday night, and then came here Tuesday morning, and then planned the escape and the shoot-out with her husband. 

But, apparently there was some evidence, we're told, from maids there that was left in the hotel that also led authorities to sort of pinpoint maybe some of their locations, and some other items.  So apparently they left some very suspicious items behind.  Ironically, that was the hotel that we checked ourselves into. 

CARLSON:  Now who are these authorities, exactly?  I know Mark Gwyn from the TBI, his press conference about 20 minutes ago went out of his way to talk about the cooperation between various law enforcement agencies involved in this manhunt.  Who specifically caught the Hyattes?  Do we know?

COSBY:  Well, we know it's a combination.  I'm told that some of the U.S. Marshals, and I'm also told local authorities there, as well. 

As soon as they knew that they were in this area of Kentucky, Ohio, that border region, which is what they believed, as soon as they felt that they had a real firm pinpoint on them—remember, the hotel that they were spotted at in Erlanger, Kentucky, they believed they were literally minutes away. 

Some of the clerks, some of the other people at the hotel specifically remembered these people.  They were 100 percent sure.  So at that point, it wasn't just a tentative sighting, it was a firm sighting. 

So once they knew that they were in the area, they just put an all points bulletin in that region, so they shipped right away U.S. marshals to the region, FBI, I'm told some Secret Service were also involved.  And ultimately also local authorities.  So it was a combination, really, of everybody.  I'm told U.S. marshals playing a key role. 

CARLSON:  All right.  Rita Cosby in Tennessee, where you've been all day.  With some news.  Thank you. 

All right.  To recap, if you haven't been watching, Jennifer Hyatte, her husband, George, he escaped from prison.  She a former prison nurse, who apparently abetted his escape from custody yesterday, and is accused of shooting a marshal in the process.  Both apprehended tonight at about 10 p.m. in Columbus, Ohio.  They were staying at a Best Value Inn.  That's what we know.  She apparently is wounded. 

There's a lot we don't know.  We're going to be finding out over the course of this hour and bringing it to you.  We'll be back in just a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Tennessee prison inmate and his wife, both fugitives since yesterday, caught tonight at 10 p.m. in Columbus, Ohio.  Stay tuned to this show, the only live national news program on the air right now, for details as they unfold.  Be right back. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN SHICKEL, U.S. MARSHALS:  This evening, around, I guess around 8 p.m. or so, started getting some information that the suspects were in—were in the Ohio area.  Our deputies were able to get some information along with the FBI and the local authorities here, and start following up on some leads, which led them to the hotel where they eventually were arrested. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

The top of our show dominated by the capture of George and Jennifer Hyatte in Columbus, Ohio, tonight around 10 p.m.  The couple had escaped from custody in Tennessee yesterday.  They were tracked down, it appears, largely with the aid of tips from the public, found at a hotel in Columbus, Ohio. 

Joining me now to report and to analyze the capture of the Hyattes, NBC News reporter, Ron Mott, who's been covering the story since the moment it broke yesterday. 

Ron, thanks for joining me. 

RON MOTT, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  You bet.  Tucker, good evening to you. 

I want to pas along some information that I am getting here.  Late word coming out of the NBC affiliate in Columbus.  Get this: they are reporting that the couple hailed a cab, just as authorities closed in on them in Erlanger, Kentucky, at that hotel there, hailed a cab near Cincinnati and told the cabbie to drive them to Columbus. 

They arrived in Columbus at that hotel on I-71 just north of the city there.  The cabbie apparently phoned 911 and said, “I think these are the folks you're looking for.” 

A raid was conducted within moments, and they were then able to take the Hyattes into custody without incident. 

Now, also want to point out, something that cannot be overstated, and that's the actions of that second officer.  Because as this went down, he was able to fire off some rounds and apparently injured Mrs. Hyatte.  There's blood evidence in that Ford Explorer.  That was the first car that they took away—that they took off from this scene.  There's blood in that vehicle.  There's reports of blood in the hotel room in Kentucky.  That has not been independently confirmed yet. 

There may be blood in that Chevy van, and there again, there may be some blood in that hotel room in—north of Columbus.  So the actions of this officer will add to the evidence that authorities will have to present their case before a jury. 

Now, as you know, Mr. Hyatte is expected to appear before a federal judge tomorrow in Columbus, where the process of extraditing him back here to Roane County, Tennessee, will begin. 

We understand that Mrs. Hyatte is going to be observed for the injuries that she sustained, perhaps in her lower extremities, in the leg area, perhaps, and then they will begin the process of extraditing her back to Roame County, Tennessee.

So quite an extraordinary night in this part of the country, Tucker. 

The manhunt is over, and now the legal process begins in earnest. 

Back to you. 

CARLSON:  It's an amazing story, Ron, and to think, just about a year ago, Jennifer Hyatte was simply a nurse.  And all of a sudden, she's Bonnie in this sort of amazing saga. 

Rita Cosby told us a moment ago that she had heard that both Hyattes showed up at a hospital in or outside of Columbus, because her wound was apparently, she believed, threatening enough that she had to have it treated.  They were in some way confronted in the hospital, retreated back to the Best Value Inn off Sinclair Avenue, in Columbus, and then were captured.  Have you heard that?

MOTT:  I have not heard that myself, personally, Tucker.  But we do know that this officer, that second officer was able apparently to empty his weapon, and then leaned over to his fallen partner, and grabbed his gun, and also squeezed off a few more rounds.

So there were multiple rounds fired at that Ford Explorer as it sped away from the scene here, and at least one of those bullets obviously apparently striking Mrs. Hyatte.

And again, as we say, that—the blood evidence along with the ballistics evidence, there were weapons, plural, that authorities say were found with the couple, and they will obviously be testing those weapons to see if they can get a match between the bullet or bullets that killed Mr.  Morgan. 

CARLSON:  Now, you said that tomorrow morning, George Hyatte is going to go before a federal judge to be extradited back to Tennessee.  This is a guy who has escaped at least six times, at least six times from custody, a previous time also with the help of a woman with whom he was apparently involved. 

What kind of security are they going to have on the scene tomorrow morning when George Hyatte shows up in court?

MOTT:  Well, I would imagine that—I mean, federal security at federal courthouses is obviously very tight.  I would imagine that will be the case again tomorrow. 

One thing to point out, I spoke with a source here at the courthouse earlier.  Apparently this idea of trying to get him out of jail stemmed from his frustration apparently with this robbery charge that he plead guilty to, and received six years for.  Apparently, he thought that he was unduly charged, that he was not involved to the extent that apparently these charges were levied against him. 

And so apparently his frustration at not having to serve out what was a 33-year sentence remaining—he had 35 years in the sentence.  He was two years in, apparently led this—the start of this process between the two of them to try to get him out of jail. 

As you mentioned, the couple met at a prison in northwest Tennessee sometime in the past, we believe, over a year ago, and that Mrs. Hyatte was fired by the outsourcing nursing agency that hired her in that facility because of some fraternization with this particular individual.  So she was fired last August. 

They apparently were married a few months ago in May, but we understand that she was not able to, because of that union, to gain any more access to him than she normally would have as just a friend or someone he would put on his list. 

So in terms of communication, that will be interesting to see just how much communication the two of them had to actually plan this, and then put all the pieces in motion and plant the vehicles, allegedly, et cetera. 

CARLSON:  Well, that is absolutely, I believe, the fascinating question in all of this.  Here's a guy, again, who's escaped five previous times. 

As I understand it, the Hyattes were given permission by the warden of the prison to marry on May 20 of this year.  Have you talked to any officials in Tennessee who have second thoughts about that decision, allowing the inmate who escaped previously with the help of a woman to marry a woman on the outside?

MOTT:  No.  The only—I have not heard any word from any officials with the state corrections system here.  Only to say that there was one official who said that she would not gain any more access to him in his prison.  So it is unclear whether there will be a move to change laws regarding prison unions, but certainly something perhaps that authorities will be thinking about in the future. 

CARLSON:  All right.  NBC's Ron Mott in Kingston, Tennessee, doing a terrific job.  Thank you.  Thanks, Ron. 

MOTT:  You bet. 

CARLSON:  We're going to have a lot more on the story.  At the top of the hour, Rita Cosby is going to take over, give you a full hour on this unfolding story.  She brought us fresh news when she appeared on our show a moment ago.  Doubtless, she will have more. 

In the meantime, we're going to bring you everything else that happened in the world today.  We'll begin right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.  If you've been watching, you know that a story we've been reporting pretty extensively over the last 36 hours has come to an end. 

Jennifer Hyatte, a former prison nurse, and her husband, George, until yesterday, a prison inmate, were apprehended tonight around 10 p.m. in Columbus, Ohio.  They were at the Best Value Inn. 

Reports differ on exactly how they were apprehended, though it does seem clear she was injured in the shoot-out yesterday outside the courthouse in Kingston, Tennessee. 

MSNBC is going live tonight late.  We're going to bring you every development as we get it. 

But first, other things happened today.  Here's a few of them. 

A progress report about the war on terror, supposedly, released by the enemy.  A new videotape, said to be the work of al Qaeda, threatens attacks on American troops with an arsenal of explosives and the terrorists' own coalition of troops, which they claim includes Arabs and Europeans. 

And if that fails, why not volunteer man's best friend for a suicide mission?  It's yet another shocking terror tactic in the Iraq war.  Insurgents are said to be rigging dogs with remote control explosives, then detonating them when they approach Iraqi police.  Completely disgusting. 

Mitchell Johnson will be a free man tomorrow when he's released from a federal detention center in Arkansas.  Seven years ago, 13-year-old Johnson and an 11-year-old friend murdered five people in school yard ambush.  A since closed legal loophole prevents the state from imprisoning the young killer beyond his 21st birthday, which happens to be tomorrow. 

The head of the Anti-Defamation League is calling for Reverend Jerry Falwell to retract his months-old call to, quote, “Vote Christian in '08.”  ADL national director Abe Foxman says Falwell's words are, quote, “directly at odds with the American ideal, and should be retracted.”  Abe Foxman should lighten up. 

Love affairs with the boss are nothing new, but if the boss involved happens to be Monsignor Eugene Clark, director of Gotham's St. Patrick's Cathedral, well, that is news.  The accusation come from the husband of Laura DeFilippo, the monsignor's secretary.  Both deny a tryst, but the damage has been done all over the New York papers and for that matter, right here. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Somebody just fell out of the upper deck and landed on the screen. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  New York's finest net, a die hard Yankee fan.  Eighteen-year-old Scott Harper faces charges of reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct after he plunged from an upper deck of Yankee Stadium last night.  Netting behind home plate broke his fall, but cops claim this was no accident.  They say Harper wanted to see if the net would hold his weight.  Happily, it did. 

And again, at the top of the hour, Rita Cosby will have a full hour on developments on this unfolding story in Ohio, George and Jennifer Hyatt apprehended outside Columbus.

But first—but first, Rachel Maddow, the great Rachel Maddow of Air America radio, joins us to bat around the day's other news stories. 

First, Mitchell Johnson, this 13-year-old killer, killed five people in Jonesboro, Arkansas, seven years ago.  He was a little kid when he did it.  I still think it's an outrage that he's being released from prison. 

I'm not for imprisoning children.  I'm not for executing children, but some point, you kill five people in cold blood, never even give an explanation for it, simply because you're a complete psycho, I think it's not in the interest of society to release this guy.  He's probably still a threat, and moreover, it sends wrong message. 

RACHEL MADDOW, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST:  How long do you think he should get?

CARLSON:  I think he should be imprisoned at least until it can be demonstrated he's no longer a threat, which is another way of saying a lot longer than his 21st birthday.  He's being released on a technicality.  And I understand why we shouldn't imprison kids, but you kill five people, I'm sorry.  I'm not sympathetic any more. 

MADDOW:  But to be demonstrated that he's not a threat, because he gets rehabilitated in prison?  We don't really believe that prison rehabilitates people anymore, do we?  I mean, prisons are a bad place to spend time, if you're a kid or an adult. 

CARLSON:  Maybe hold him for life.  And that's something I feel terrible saying.  I don't think you want to hold a 13-year-old for the rest of his natural life.  You know, sickening.  On the other hand, how do you deal with someone who killed five people, pulls the fire alarm at a school, and just shoots them for no reason?

MADDOW:  And imagine if he'd been 10 when he killed these five people. 

What if he'd been 6 when he killed these five people?

CARLSON:  His accomplice, the boy who did it with him, was 11 years old. 

MADDOW:  Yes.  And so what do we say as a society?  Obviously, you hear about the details of the crime and you want vengeance.  You want the kid to be executed or you want life in prison or you want 30 years or something.  You don't want seven years. 

But there's a reason that we have different laws for juveniles than we do for adults.  And it's because kids are not liable for the things they do in the way that adults are, because we think that kids are different. 

And also, because you're not only the worst thing you ever did.  You're more than that as a person.  And so we make these decisions, and it doesn't feel right, but the alternative is worse. 

CARLSON:  Yes.  You're not only the worst thing you ever did, unless the worst thing you ever did is this bad. 

If you're Pol Pot, I'm sorry, the Cambodian genocide defines you.  You may have been a marvelous husband, father, and gardener, but you know, that's sort of who you are, the genocide guy.  And I think, you know, Mitchell Johnson, he's the shoot five strangers guy forever. 

MADDOW:  And he will be that forever, but whether we should execute people who commit crimes when they're 10, 11, 12, 13 years old.  We're not Iran.  We're not Pakistan.  We don't do that.  And it doesn't feel satisfying, but I'd rather be us than be Iran. 

CARLSON:  I would too though they don't have a lot of school shootings in Pakistan or at least Iran.  The story that actually got me the most exercise today, almost by far, was Abe Foxman (ph) attacking the Reverend Jerry Falwell.

Falwell said that people who agree with him, conservative Christians, ought to vote Christian and Foxman of the anti-defamation league took this as somehow, I don't know, hostile to other religions.

And that seems to me a totally wrong—that's a misreading of what it is, of what Falwell said.  Look, Christianity is not an ethnicity.  It's a set of beliefs.  It's a belief system.

MADDOW:  Right.

CARLSON:  And, encouraging people to vote on their beliefs is what all politicians do.  It's what all good Americans do.  It's what all people should do.  There's nothing wrong with saying it.

MADDOW:  I do think that there's a little ambiguity here because it's open to interpretation what it means.  He said vote Christian in 2008.

CARLSON:  Right.

MADDOW:  So, if he means only vote for Christians then I'm kind of with Foxman because that's a little un-American I think.  But, if he means vote as a Christian, like walk like an Egyptian or something and vote as if you are a Christian that's kind of what Falwell's been saying for his whole career and that doesn't seem that controversial.

CARLSON:  Yes, because I mean, look, Joe Lieberman, who is obviously not Christian...

MADDOW:  Right.

CARLSON: ...he's an Orthodox Jew, I believe had he been opposed to abortion he would have had a lot of evangelical votes.  In other words, it's not just a matter of do you believe in my religion?  People who believe strongly in a, you know, in a religion of the book as they say, you know, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, are appealing I think to, you know, people who are orthodox in any one of those religions.

MADDOW:  I think the evangelical vote has been bought wholesale by the Republican Party and I think that that's a shame for the evangelical votes.  I think it's a shame for the Democratic Party.  I think it's a shame for the country.  So, I disagree with you about Lieberman.

But I do think that Falwell here was ambiguous.  It's also weird that Foxman is coming out about this months after it happened.  I don't know what the spur was for coming out against Falwell now when Falwell said this months ago.

CARLSON:  I think he had a lot of paper on his desk and he finally got to it.  I will say I agree with you that a lot of evangelical leaders are essentially just an auxiliary of the Republican Party but a lot of individual evangelicals are not actually.

MADDOW:  Sure.

CARLSON:  They're just conservative and they believe what they believe (INAUDIBLE).

Now the Yankee fan who jumped in to the net last night.

MADDOW:  I loved it.

CARLSON:  Now this is a guy who obviously has a self control problem.  This is not someone who should be visiting the observation deck at the Empire State Building.

MADDOW:  He's 18.  What 18-year-old doesn't have a self control problem?

CARLSON:  Exactly.  Right, that's exactly right but he's also a really brave fan.  This guy dove into the net.  I mean, I don't know, I don't think he should be arrested.  I think this is like what happens when one of your kids gets lost and you're so fearful and when you find them and you're joyful and then your joy turns to anger immediately and you spank him, right?

MADDOW:  Right.

CARLSON:  I think we should resist the temptation to spank this guy.  I think he's a kind of American hero.

MADDOW:  But what if he had fallen through the net and broken his neck? 

Then would you say “God that was really brave what he did?”

CARLSON:  Yes, I would.

MADDOW:  It's a shame about the neck.

CARLSON:  I would say it was dumb.  I still think it was dumb but I still think this is the kind of American pluck and courage that we ought to be proud of.

MADDOW:  Listen, I'm a Red Sox fan and so I said this kid's name over and over and over again on my radio show and I should mention Scott Harper from (INAUDIBLE) New York. 

I just think it's humiliating.  I think he had to sit there with his head in his hands in the net and then after he crawls out of the net they actually grabbed him by his butt to pull him out of the net.  The shame that kid went through for that stunt, as a Red Sox fan while the Yankees are losing, it was one of the best nights of baseball I've ever seen.

CARLSON:  I think it's the ultimate party story.  You know, I think in the aftermath of the story that we saw unfold tonight, the Jennifer and George Hyatte story, people are going to want to reassess how much freedom you ought to give prison inmates to marry other people.

I mean here's a guy and I hate to, you know, cast the blame this early but here's a guy who had escaped five times before, OK.  This is his sixth escape.  One of his previous escapes he had used his girlfriend to help him.  What was the warden of the prison thinking when he allowed this guy to get married to a former prison nurse?

I mean there's no law that says inmates have a right to get married.  They don't have a right to get married.  It's a judgment call and in this case bad judgment.

MADDOW:  In this case, sure, maybe them getting married ended up resulting in this horrible thing that happened with the death of this marshal.  But, stopping prisoners from marrying is not going to be the world's best strategy for stopping escapes.

It's just something—it's one of the civil rights that prisoners in some cases give up, in some cases they don't.  It happens to be tangentially related to this case but it's not going to get at the heart of the problem.

CARLSON:  Tangentially, she showed up in a car and started, you know, killed somebody.

MADDOW:  If you want to say that that's a consequence of marriage, I don't know, not as a consequence of marriage.

CARLSON:  Not of marriage just of, you know, hardened criminals being able to marry in the prison system.

MADDOW:  This guy was going to get out.  This guy was going to get out no matter what.  If this is his sixth escape, two of them involved women, four of them didn't.  You can't really blame it on the marriage, Tucker.

CARLSON:  All right.

MADDOW:  Fair enough.

CARLSON:  Rachel Maddow, as always, thank you.

MSNBC is going to have a lot more on this unfolding story, a midnight special tonight live, hosted by Rita Cosby, who is reporting as she has been all day from Kingston, Tennessee.  That comes up in about 26 minutes and four seconds. 

We're bumping out here with pictures from the inside of the motel room at the Best Value Inn off Sinclair (ph) Avenue in Columbus, Ohio, and it is the location where Jennifer Hyatte and her husband George were taken into custody tonight.  There you see it.  We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  It's time for the nightly incursion of “The Outsider,” and every night at sundown creeps over the border into the world of news to rage guerilla war against the forces of reason and truth but who nevertheless is a great guy.

GEIST:  Yes.

CARLSON:  Ladies and gentlemen, a living testament, one way or the other to New York City public schools, ESPN radio and HBO boxing host Max Kellerman.

MAX KELLERMAN, ESPN RADIO AND HBO BOXING HOST:  What do you say, Tucker, busy news day.

CARLSON;  it is a busy news day and an interesting story and there's a lot we don't know about it.  As we said earlier, Rita Cosby, live at midnight.

KELLERMAN:  She's all over it.

CARLSON:  She is everywhere to fill in the blanks but first other news.

Last week we brought you news that the NCAA, that's the ruling body of college sports, will restrict participation in championship games by schools whose names are deemed abusive or hostile to Native Americans.

Among the supposedly offending schools, Florida State University.  That's the home of the Seminoles.  Tuesday, Florida governor and among the first brothers of the country, Jeb Bush, called the restrictions “ridiculous.”

Now, Max, I've long thought that Jeb Bush was really the right Bush brother to be leading this country.

KELLERMAN:  He's got to be thinking “You've got to be kidding.”

CARLSON:  Well, no.  I mean, look, this is an articulate guy.  I'm going to let him make the—I'm going to let Jeb Bush himself make the case.  “It's offensive to Native Americans” this decision, he says.  “The Seminole Indian tribe supports the traditions at FSU.  I think they insult those people by telling them, no, no, you're not smart enough to understand this.  You should be feeling really horrible.” 

In other words, the Seminoles have said it's great that you call your team the Seminoles but a bunch of non-Indians have decided, no, it's offensive.  You ought to be offended.  Jeb Bush is right.  This is an outrage.

KELLERMAN:  Jeb Bush is right and in this particular example, if you want to take this one case, FSU, I mean they call themselves the Seminoles.  That honors the Seminoles because the Seminoles were a tribe that never gave up, fought to practically the last man, woman and child.

So, they're identifying themselves with resistance, the Seminoles with the never-say-die attitude.  They're honoring that tribe in particular.  But in general, I understand the idea of not wanting to sort of make caricatures of various Indian or Native American cultures.  That's a good idea.  Maybe not in this specific case but in general it's a good idea.

CARLSON:  Here's another point that Jeb Bush made that I think we can't ignore.  “You know what they ought to be worried about,” he said of the NCAA, “the graduation rates of most college athletes.  Maybe if they had some suggestions on that universities could apply and could implement maybe doing a service to all of us.”  In other words, is this the most important thing the NCAA has to worry about?

KELLERMAN:  No.  In this case, it's political correctness run amuck.  And, you know, I think anytime things are specific they're not as offensive.  In other words, if you hear a comedian, I've always thought of Eddie Murphy doing a Jewish imitation as a Jewish guy never bothered me because it was specific.  It was precise.

When you get a more broad interpretation or imitation it gets offensive because you feel like you're being turned into a caricature.  In this case, the NCAA is way off.  In the case of the Seminoles they're way off but not in all cases.  That's my best defense.

CARLSON:  That's pretty good, not quite there though, OK.

Another sports story, if you're 21 and beer is your thing, you can drink yourself silly right in your seat at professional sporting events.  But, if you're a baby and breast milk is your drink of choice, it's not so simple.

The Boston chapter of the Breastfeeding Lobby, La Leche League says nursing moms feel uncomfortable and unfair pressure to leave the seats to breastfeed when they go to games.  They want an explicit right written down and enforced rules to do their business in public.  They want to be able to bring their kids to Red Sox games and breastfeed. 

Look, my point is pretty simple, Max.  If you're bringing your baby to Fenway Park with foul balls and screaming chowder heads and spilled beer right in the very heart of Red Sox Nation...

KELLERMAN:  Yes.

CARLSON: ...you are committing child endangerment.

KELLERMAN:  No.

CARLSON:  You should be bringing, I'm serious you shouldn't be bringing your infant to a baseball game at Fenway Park in the first place.

KELLERMAN:  OK, but that's not what this is really about is it Tucker?

CARLSON:  Yes, it is.

KELLERMAN:  You don't like public nursing, just admit it.  You don't like public nursing.

CARLSON:  Actually, I don't mind public nursing.  You know, I've seen—

I've got four kids.  I've certainly seen a lot of it.  I just don't think that anybody has an absolute right to do it.  A lot of things are great.  Nursing is great.

KELLERMAN:  You're Mr. Child Welfare.  The baby's hungry Tucker.

CARLSON:  I'm totally for nursing.  I'm totally for sex too.  I don't think you ought to be able to do it at the stands at Fenway.  That's my only point.

KELLERMAN:  But it's different.  Look, if you're sitting in your seat at Fenway Park and you want a hotdog you can order it can't you?  There's no restriction on that.  Well, the baby needs his mother's milk.  It's the same as a hotdog to you Tucker.

CARLSON:  No, it's not the same.  But, look, the point is...

KELLERMAN:  You don't like the fact that it shows you what the primary use of the breast actually is.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLERMAN:  The primary use is—the primary use is not actually sexual and you don't like that.

CARLSON:  First of all that is a completely subjective point you made open to debate but another debate, not this debate.  Here's my point.

KELLERMAN:  Yes.

CARLSON:  You can breastfeed at Fenway if you so choose.

KELLERMAN:  Yes.

CARLSON:  That's not what's at issue here.  The lactivists (ph) as they're called, the breastfeeding lobby, wants to erase the stigma from breastfeeding, right?  In other words, they don't want you to be allowed to disapprove of it.

KELLERMAN:  Right nor should you.

CARLSON:  You ought to be allowed to disapprove of it if you want.

KELLERMAN:  You should be allowed to disapprove but not to regulate against it because—and really it's the welfare of the child.  If the child is hungry, he should be able to eat wherever he is and if it's—and best of all, if it's the mother's milk, come on Tucker.  You're Mr. Child Welfare.  I don't get you on this one issue.  I think you're a little inconsistent.

CARLSON:  Not at Fenway Park.  Max Kellerman, the great Max Kellerman, thanks for joining us.

KELLERMAN:  Thank you, Tucker.

CARLSON:  See you tomorrow.

And tonight at midnight on MSNBC live, Rita Cosby will be hosting a full special, a full hour on the case of the Hyattes, George and Jennifer apprehended tonight about an hour and 44 minutes ago in Columbus, Ohio at the Best Value Inn.  She'll be bringing you up to date on all the details that have come in since that happened.  That's at midnight live at MSNBC.  Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Want to know the future?  You don't need a news anchor.  You need an astrologer.  Luckily, we have one.  Susan Miller joins us after the break with the future.  Hillary Clinton, George W. Bush and other names in the news.  Don't miss it.  We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.

Is there anything we're all more curious about than the future, can't think of anything so tonight we respond to that wonder by foretelling the future of the biggest names in news.

Joining me for our inaugural look deep into tomorrow is renowned lifestyle astrologer, a reader of the stars, and author “The Year Ahead 2005,” Susan Miller, Susan thanks a lot for joining us.

SUSAN MILLER, AUTHOR:  Thank you Tucker.

CARLSON:  Now, first to President Bush on a famously extended vacation in Crawford, Texas.  His poll numbers low, war increasingly unpopular, is he going to enjoy his respite in Crawford?

MILLER:  You know, Tucker, I don't think it's a vacation.  I think it's a kind of working respite.  I think he's there to see his father.  Bush's chart shows he's under enormous stress.  He's a Cancer and he has Leo rising.  The only way you'd know your rising sign is to actually do a horoscope.

So, he's definitely walking the floors at night.  He gives such a charming image that it's easy to think he doesn't worry but he does and when a Cancer is under stress, the thing they do is go home. 

So, he's on the ranch and I think he's going to be talking to his father.  His chart looks like he's concerned about the Supreme Court situation and I think he's going to be doing some strategizing about that.

CARLSON:  Well, should he be concerned about the Supreme Court situation, the John Roberts nomination?  What do you see in the future for that?

MILLER:  Well, I have Roberts' chart.  He's an Aquarius, born at the end of January.  Oh, it's going to be a lot of grilling for John Roberts.  I think it will surprise him how tough it's going to be.  It will surprise John Roberts and it will surprise President Bush.

But I think he will be approved and the announcement will be made on the solar eclipse October 3rd.  All the planets are in Libra, the sign of justice.  I think he will get through but it's going to be quite a process.

CARLSON:  Now, from the significant to the possibly less significant, I'm not going to cast value judgments here.  Jessica Simpson, Nick Lachey, lots of reports on the rocks this couple, are they true?

MILLER:  Well, it shows in Nick's chart, in his progress chart that he is learning lessons about marriage from a woman, so it's from Jessica.  But I want this couple to stay married.  They are coming out of a difficult period, especially Jessica.  She's a Cancer. 

Cancers have really been through the mill.  He's a Scorpio and, you know, when a man sees his wife doing so well.  She's hitting all the charts.  She's got her movie.  You know, she's been in the spotlight.  He can't help but feel a little out of it.

But you know what it's going to be his turn now.  I really hope this couple stays together because there's a real chance that things will start clicking again.  I think she may get pregnant as well.  So, all these things happening will help them.

CARLSON:  Now, Susan, you may be the only person who can unravel the deep and enduring mysteries of Brad Pitt, Angelina Jolie and Jennifer Aniston.  What's the status there?

MILLER:  Well, you know, we do know the birth times of all three, the astrological community.  I was watching Brad's chart over the past two years.  He's a Sagittarius with four planets in Capricorn.

Now, your Capricorn viewers who are sitting on their couch watching this show know that it's been no picnic over the past two years.  It's been really hard.  And I was saying to myself, boy, how is Brad getting through this?  Well, obviously not very well.

He was under a lot of stress.  I feel that he's good with Angelina.  Angelina is a Gemini.  This is the best possible year for love for Gemini and the house of love is also the house of children, so how remarkable it is that she adopted the baby.

CARLSON:  I think it's good that it's the best possible year because I think that's about how long this whole thing is going to last a year.

MILLER:  Well, I would...

CARLSON:  That's my prediction, Susan.

MILLER:  Well, I don't think so.  I think there's something there but she's going to leave the movies eventually and become an ambassador or so something with the U.N. but she's not going to be in the movies her whole life and I'm sorry to say that because she's kind of fun to watch in the movies but she's got a bigger role.

CARLSON:  Angelina Jolie to the United Nations, you heard it here first. 

Susan Miller, thanks for joining us.

MILLER:  Thank you.

CARLSON:  MSNBC is going to have a lot more on the breaking and still unfolding news of the day, the capture in Columbus, Ohio of the Hyattes, Jennifer and George.  It happened tonight around 10:00 p.m.  Rita Cosby at the top of the hour, seven minutes away, is going to host a full live hour to fill in the blanks on that story.

Meanwhile, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  It's been a busy, news filled evening.  Here's your nightcap, “The Cutting Room Floor,” the odds and ends of news we couldn't pack in—

Willie Geist.

GEIST:  That's right, Tucker.  Now to the important news right, no, actually moments like this though in law enforcement you got to be proud of those guys.  That's very cool and coordination.

CARLSON:  Oh, absolutely.

GEIST:  Be a cop kids.  It's really cool.

CARLSON:  Plus, it ended so much better than expected.

All right, when Costco isn't selling ketchup 24 bottles at a time, it's peddling fine art.  The wholesale company just put a 1958 Picasso crayon drawing up on its website for the bargain basement price $129,999.99.  It is, believe it or not, the second Picasso Costco has offered.  The first sold for 39 grand in January.

GEIST:  Wow.  I will say Costco has by far the finest art collection of all the low price wholesale carriers, except Sam's Club does have those airbrushed eagles with the definition of freedom.

CARLSON:  No, but when I was a Rauschenberg or I want Rauschenbergs in bulk Costco.

GEIST:  Costco.  Well that's the problem.  You have to buy them in bulk. 

It gets expensive.

CARLSON:  Well, if there ever was a deterrent to panty theft here it is, ouch.  Twenty-year-old Bruce Taylor was caught stealing underwear from his Oklahoma neighbor's house.  He ended up on the receiving end of some vigilante justice, well deserved I would add.  The neighbor suspected Taylor had been stealing his wife's bras so he set a trap and caught Taylor in the act.  When police searched  Taylor's home they found more than 50 pounds, not pairs, pounds of underwear.

GEIST:  Fifty pounds, how many pair is that?CARLSON:  Who weighed it by the way?

GEIST:  That's what the police said apparently.  We've been talking about good police work tonight.  How about this guy, the guy who caught him, he tied a string to his wife's bra and to a coffee mug in the middle of the night and he was awoken.  When the guy snatched the bra, the mug fell to the ground.  He woke up and pummeled the guy.

CARLSON:  That is excellent.

GEIST:  So, hats off, hats off to the neighbor.

CARLSON:  Wouldn't it have just been easier just to lock the doors?

GEIST:  That's another approach.

CARLSON:  Not to get simplistic about it or anything.

GEIST:  Listen to each his own, don't judge.

CARLSON:  All right.  A 64-year-old at Reda (ph) Jaeschke's farm stand probably looked like a pretty easy target for an armed robber on Sunday but that robber didn't know Reda Jaeschke.  The man pulled up wearing a ski mask, flashed a gun and demanded Jaeschke's money.  That's when he learned what she was made of.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I just told him get your hands the hell off my register and get your gun out of my face.  I took this cane and I said keep on walking, just keep moving and get out of here and he did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Wow.

GEIST:  I will remember Reda every time I look to stick up an old lady.

CARLSON:  I was going to say I'm never going to knock up a little farm stand.

GEIST:  No, which is more often than I care to admit.  That's a tough lesson learned.

CARLSON:  Willie Geist thanks.

That's “The Situation” for tonight.  Stay tuned for continuing live coverage for the latest on the capture of the fugitive couple George and Jennifer Hyatte late Wednesday night.

We'll see you here Thursday night.  Rita Cosby right now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END   

Content and programming copyright 2005 NBC.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED.  Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user's personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon NBC and Voxant, Inc.'s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

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