updated 8/12/2005 9:33:28 AM ET 2005-08-12T13:33:28

Guest: Michael Cooke, Pamela Davis, Candice DeLong, Joe Tacopina, Clete Hyman, Jug Twitty, Beth Holloway Twitty

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Now, tonight‘s top headline, possible new evidence in the Natalee Holloway case.  Natalee‘s mom—get this—I still can‘t believe this.  She‘s the target of a legal attack from one of Natalee‘s suspected abductors.  Well, she is in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY tonight to talk about that and her fight for justice. 

And then, exclusive new information from Turkey in our investigation into the disappearance of American honeymooner George Smith IV what the Turkish authorities found, what the people nearby that room heard that night, details you are not going to hear anywhere else. 

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, no passport required, only common sense allowed.   

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, good evening and welcome to the show. 

Tonight, incredible new exclusive details about missing honeymooner George Smith IV.  We went to a port in Turkey where the investigation began, and tonight, exclusive details about what we have uncovered, details you are not going to see anywhere else.  And that‘s just minutes away. 

And also, in just a moment, we are going to have Natalee‘s mom and stepdad here to talk about their continued fight for justice.

But, first, I want to give you the latest developments out of Aruba.  A private investigator today finds what may be Joran Van Der Sloot‘s belt near the lighthouse where he says he last saw Natalee on that fateful night.  And the witness who says he saw Joran and the Kalpoe brothers at 3:00 a.m. on the night Natalee vanished has now vanished himself. 

He was a no-show at a court hearing earlier today in Aruba. And the family also hired a new search team to come to Aruba in their search for Natalee. 

Well, let‘s now go live to Natalee‘s mom, Beth.  She is with us live from Aruba.  And we are also talking to Natalee‘s stepdad, Jug, who is back home in Birmingham, Alabama.

Beth, I want to start, first of all, with the news that Mr. Kalpoe has accused of you stalking him and told the judge that you were quite the intimidating presence, that he didn‘t want you around him ever again.  What is your response to that charge? 

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  Well, first, I certainly didn‘t know I had that much of an effect on Deepak.  It kind of makes me wonder.  I guess I was getting pretty close to the truth.  And it must hurt when you get that close. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Are your lawyers telling you that you have anything to worry about with this—with this possible charge, or is it—or is it just his way to try to intimidate you and keep you from trying to fight to get the truth? 

(CROSSTALK)

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Oh, absolutely, I don‘t have anything to worry about.  I am anxious to see, though, the complaint that he has filed against me.  And, you know, depending on what his complaint is, then we will decide what—how we need to respond.

But, you know, I am going to respect my attorney‘s wishes right now.  She has asked me to refrain from going to the Internet cafe at this point, and I will abide by that.  And I am just so surprised, though, that it caused such a reaction.  I can‘t imagine that that brief visit, you know, warranted this response from him. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Shook him up that much. 

Jug, why do you think, in Birmingham, Alabama, away—Birmingham, Alabama, away from Aruba right now, that you got this punk, who, again, knows the truth about what happened to Natalee, and yet he is attacking your wife? 

JUG TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  Yes.  That‘s very frustrating, I will tell you, Joe.   

It‘s—I can‘t wait to get back down there.  I am going back down Saturday to be with Beth for another week.  And the whole thing has been so frustrating from the beginning.  You know, you mentioned today about the witness.  They do know where he is.  I was told today by a reliable source that they do know where this witness is.  Now, whether they can get him into court or not for his appearance, I don‘t know.

But the whole thing is—is frustrating to me.  Last night, I saw something on TV.  It was very frustrating, when Ruben Trappenberg said something to the effect that—somebody asked him about, well, you need to pay for all of the family‘s expenses.  Oh, we are.  You know, everything is comped, all the cab rides, all the hotels, all the—everything.

And, you know, that‘s so frustrating to me, Joe, it‘s unbelievable.  I mean, I cannot believe the man came on there and said that, because...

SCARBOROUGH:  So, is he lying? 

TWITTY:  ... I can‘t tell you how—absolutely.  They are not paying for all our things.  And, yes, they have offered to help us with a couple of things, but they are not comping our rooms down there.  I put Beth in a nice hotel because I wanted security in there, and the owner of the hotel was nice enough to come and give us a discount on the room, but they are not comping our rooms. 

They‘re not comping—I have there in probably 70 cab rides.  I have never had anybody offer me to give me a free cab ride.  It‘s just unbelievable to even come and say that.  And I have seen my credit card bills, if they want to pay for it.  I don‘t want them to pay for it.  I don‘t want the Aruban government to give me a penny.  All I want to do is, I want to find Natalee and I want to go home. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Beth, you know, yesterday, we also heard about Joran‘s lawyer complaining in court that Joran‘s human rights are being violated because Dutch authorities are asking him questions about Natalee‘s disappearance.  What is your response to that? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Oh, Joe, speak of human rights, you think of Natalee first. 

I mean, this is—this is truly a young lady whose human rights have been ripped from her.  So, he has absolutely no validity to even make that statement regarding Joran Van Der Sloot. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Let‘s talk about some of the—some of the events that happened today.

A private investigator came forth, talked about the possibility of finding Joran‘s belt on a beach near where Natalee was last seen.  Any hopes there that that may lead—and we have got a split-screen right now showing the belt on the left, and, on the right, there‘s a picture of Joran with a belt that appears to be the same belt. 

What is your response?  Do you think it may be a positive lead? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Well, now, I did not get to see the belt and I only found out about it later, late this evening, when I spoke with Art.  So, I am letting him handle that. 

I‘m just—you know, it certainly warrants to have this analyzed or further investigated.  I mean, briefly—as briefly as I saw it, it looked suspicious.  But I just saw the picture.  I did not see the belt.  And just kind of have to wait to see what happens on that. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Going more generally on this, Beth, are you receiving any leads that, right now, that give you a reason to believe that this investigation is going in the right direction, or are you afraid that you all have hit a stopping point? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Well, you know, I think that they have got one suspect in custody, but until they get the remaining suspects, and you know in my mind, it still staying—I am still sticking by, it‘s Deepak Kalpoe, Satish Kalpoe, and also the involvement of Paulus Van Der Sloot. 

And so, I still think that they need to at least be questioned again, absolutely, and then, yes, they are on the right track. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Jug, you have got to have some concerns about that September 4 date, I believe it is, where the Aruban authorities are going to decide whether to keep Joran in jail or let him go.  What do you think needs to be done between now and then to make sure that this guy doesn‘t walk free? 

TWITTY:  I think, Joe, they need to go back to the beginning and question the people that were with me that night.  We have already got conflicting stories now. 

People have changed their statements from the very first night.  Those people that were with me that night, had they taken our statements at least a week after it happened, we would have already had the answer.  But when they take my statement 33 days later, and they take the other guys‘ statements that were with me and ladies that were with me, you know, like 19 days later, it‘s like they didn‘t want to find the truth. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s remarkable. 

Have you all got any information from the FBI or any other law enforcement authorities on how the interrogation is going right now between Dutch authorities and Joran? 

TWITTY:  Beth may have some.  I can‘t tell you, Joe.  I don‘t know.

SCARBOROUGH:  Beth? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  No.  I mean, you know, they are really only—you know, I don‘t think they are actually in the interrogation rooms.

That is not occurring.  So, the only information they have been able to get are just audio and video footage that were taken during those interrogations during the month of, I guess, June, and also during the month of July. 

Now, you know, I am not sure at what point they are, as far as how much the evidence they have released.  I am not sure what all the FBI has began to review.  So, you know, I just don‘t think that we have enough information to comment about that right now. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Have you got any sense from the FBI or any FBI agent through this entire search that they were frustrated because the Aruban authorities and the Dutch authorities didn‘t let them play a more active role? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  You know, it‘s really hard for me to speak for them. 

(CROSSTALK)

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  But Jug might. 

Jug? 

(LAUGHTER)

TWITTY:  No, I think they have been frustrated.  They have been very frustrated. 

You know, they—it‘s so hard, Joe, because even—even the FBI agents that were there in the beginning that have helped us, when they go into a room, everything is in Dutch, or everything is in Papiamento or whatever.  So, it probably took them at least 10 days to even figure out what was going on.  And, you know I guess it‘s not easy. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, it‘s not easy, but...

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  And, you know, Joe, I...

SCARBOROUGH:  Go ahead, Beth. 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Well, all I was going to say, and there was also another false statement made that was by Ruben Trappenberg, the spokesperson for the government. 

You know, the FBI was not involved from day one, and it was only until my plea that came probably June the 5th that we began getting some response and some involvement from the FBI.  But, you know, we had to pursue that ourselves and from supporters in the U.S. to be instrumental in getting that.

And then, there were only in an assistive mode, remember, for many, many, many weeks, and basically up until just—until—until recently.  And, still, I am not sure if they are much more into that unless now all the documentation, from videotapes, from audiotapes are being released.  So, you know, that was a false statement. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Go ahead, Jug. 

TWITTY:  Joe, I would also say, it‘s so frustrating to us, because, you know, here‘s the government down there.  They are saying they are helping us.

And I am sure they are, but when Ruben Trappenberg comes on there and says statements like—this was on another network or something the other night—that they were complaining that the government wasn‘t helping with backhoes and things like that, and that EquuSearch and private investigators—private entrepreneurs down there, like Jossy and people, were donating equipment. 

And Ruben Trappenberg come on and goes, well, you know, I don‘t know if the White House has backhoes in their backyard, but we don‘t have them down here. 

You know, what kind of statement is that?  I mean, it just frustrates me to no end. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Do you sense an arrogance from Mr. Trappenberg and a growing resentment of your presence there? 

(CROSSTALK)

TWITTY:  Absolutely. 

And I will tell you, Beth and I walked right by the man one night when we were at the Marriott.  And we were all doing interviews there.  And I don‘t know if Beth remembers, but I certainly remember that he would not even look at us or say hello or anything.

And, you know, we—we—we—all we want is Natalee back, Joe.  You know, I don‘t care what the government does down there.  I think that, you know, they are spending a tremendous amount of money when you have got four people there that have the answer that can find Natalee, and they are causing the island of Aruba to spend all this money. 

It‘s not the Twitty-Holloway family.  It‘s these four people, and put pressure on them and get the answers. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And, of course, Beth, you were—you were agreeing that Mr. Trappenberg did walk right past you all.

Who do you place the primary blame on?  Do you place it on Joran, the Kalpoe brothers, or Paulus Van Der Sloot in the end?  Do you think Paulus may be the one most responsible for a cover-up, if there is one, down there right now? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Well, you would like to think that someone in his position, a man that was about to be either seated as a judge or someone that had worked for a legal assistant for the prosecuting attorney‘s office, you would think that he would be the first person willing and ready to step forward and protect the integrity of Aruba. 

These citizens deserve better than that here. 

SCARBOROUGH:  But he is obviously not doing that, is he? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Obviously not. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Let me ask you, Jug, about a letter you wrote to a friend of mine, Bob Riley, who I served with in Congress.  Now, of course, he is governor of—he is governor of the state of Alabama.  And you wrote a letter talking about how the Alabama legislature had proposed a resolution boycotting travel to Aruba.

But you sent a letter to Riley, asked them not to be part of that, saying—quote—“Aruba has provided housing, volunteers through the Red Cross, supported nationwide searches and treated us with reverence and respect.  This resolution would allow some factions to drive a wedge between our new friends and those who want us off the island.”

Jug, despite the fact that you are terribly frustrated with Ruben Trappenberg and other people in Aruba, you still don‘t want the Alabama state legislature to push for a boycott on travel to Aruba? 

TWITTY:  No, I don‘t.  Absolutely not. 

I mean, I am sorry they—that this has come to what it has.  They could have cleared this up in the—we should have had an answer as to what happened to Natalee within, at the most, two weeks.  And I‘m sorry it‘s come to what it has.  And, of course, my family has gone through tremendous stress during this.

And, you know, I wrote that because I don‘t want the people—it‘s not the people of Aruba.  It‘s—and, you know, bless their hearts.  Everybody down there has opened up their hearts to us.  But, you know, when Trappenberg comes on there saying he is paying all the tabs and we are down there mooching off of him and things like that—I mean, he didn‘t say that, but that‘s the way it makes me feel—that‘s not right. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Not right at all. 

TWITTY:  And I wrote that letter because—no, it‘s not. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, Beth and Jug, stay with us.  We are going to be back in a second.  And I am going to ask both of you why the authorities can‘t crack a kid who just turned 18 who knows the truth, knows right now where Natalee Holloway is.

We‘ll be right back in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY in a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Coming up, our exclusive investigation into the missing honeymooner, what we have uncovered half-a-world away in Turkey. 

That, plus more with Natalee Holloway‘s parents, when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Let‘s now bring back in Beth and Jug Twitty. 

Beth, I want to talk about this Dutch kid.  And he really is.  I mean, he is a kid.  He just turned 18.  I know people like this, because I live in Northwest Florida and grew up on the beaches.  I mean, this guy ain‘t a Marine.  He looks like a hard-partying beach bum, likes hanging out in bars, drinking, picking up women gambling.

And, yet, the Dutch authorities are acting like he is a Marine that they can‘t crack.  How frustrating is it that all of these authorities that have supposedly been interrogating this guy so hard over the past several days can‘t crack a beach bum? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  I think Joran must be keeping a little calendar in his head, or maybe marking it on his cell wall.  I don‘t know.

But he has been able to gamble senselessly.  For how long, we don‘t know.  He‘s able to enter Carlos ‘n Charlie‘s with certainly not an I.D., but probably some special pass.  What that would be, I don‘t know.  So, what is he doing?  He has probably counted, like I said, in his head.  He‘s got so many days.  I think he is just going to ride them out and thinks he is going to walk out of there.  He‘s just going to gamble.

SCARBOROUGH:  So, he keeps—he keeps his mouth shut until September 4, and he is just rolling the dice that he gets to walk free and never held accountable for what he did that night?  Is that what you are saying? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Well, it sure sounds like that‘s what he may be doing, you know, just counting down his days. 

SCARBOROUGH:  From what you have picked up from being in Aruba for as long as you have, do you sense that this guy really was known by everybody, not only at Carlos ‘n Charlie‘s, but also at the other bars and casinos around town, and maybe he had a special pass, or maybe he was always just waved in, because he was—let‘s face it—I mean, he was a kid who was very connected on the island? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  You know, absolutely, 100 percent. 

And even with this young girl that came forward to me, he knew every single patron in Carlos ‘n Charlie‘s, every local, with that grip handshake, with a kiss on the cheek to each and every girl there.  He is so connected, he is so supportive with his friends in there.  You know, he is just very confident and sure of himself that he can ride this one out. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And, Jug, you think those connections are allowing him to stay silent, allowing him to possibly beat the rap here? 

TWITTY:  Well, Joe, you tell me.  How does—how does a failed judge and a schoolteacher who probably have a combined income of somewhere around, you know, $125,000, hire nine attorneys? 

I mean, I know what—we have got one attorney and an attorney assistant here, and I know how expensive that is.  Somebody is paying for that.  You tell me. 

SCARBOROUGH:  He has got nine—this kid has got nine attorneys working for him? 

TWITTY:  Joe, that was from the prosecutor.  The prosecutor told Beth that that—that Joran now has nine attorneys.  You know they are not pro bono.  I mean, somebody is—he is connected.  There‘s—it‘s deeper than Natalee.

And I hate that it is, you know, and we are caught up in this.  But all we want to do is get Natalee and go home.  I don‘t care what they do down there, but we need—we want Natalee. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Do you all have any idea at all who may be backing them, what force in Aruba may be providing this guy with the money to have nine attorneys? 

TWITTY:  I don‘t have any idea. 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  No.  I mean...

TWITTY:  Read the—read the—the e-mails.  I mean, read the

Internet.  There‘s 10 million different stories out there, and we get them

·        my phone rings.  You know, every night, I will get 48 calls, that everybody says this person, this person, this person.  You know, who knows. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Beth, any final thoughts tonight? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  You know, no, but, I mean, he has to be.  There have to be other connections besides—this is—this is more about just Joran Van Der Sloot.  I mean, we all know that.  Everyone that is watching this knows that. 

You know, we are not—there‘s no way.  And the saddest part is, is, Natalee Holloway has to be a victim caught up in this, whatever it is.  And I know it‘s way bigger than Natalee Holloway.  And that—that‘s what greatly disturbs me. 

SCARBOROUGH:  That is what is so sad is, that here you have an innocent young woman caught up, again, in something much bigger than her. 

I want to thank both of you for being with us, Jug and Beth, as always.  Know our prayers are going to be with you.

And also know this.  And, Jug, I understand, you don‘t want the Alabama legislature getting involved here.  But if the truth does not come out in this case, Americans will not go to Aruba.  It will destroy—I am telling you, it will destroy their tourist industry for years to come.  Rest assured, that. 

So, again, our thoughts and prayers are with you.  Thanks for being with us.  And let us know if there‘s anything we can do. 

TWITTY:  OK.  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, as you know, we have also been investigating the disappearance of American honeymooner George Smith IV.  He disappeared, of course, on July the 5th

Now our investigation has taken us all the way to Turkey, to the port where the investigation began.  Tonight, explosive new information you are not going to see anywhere else.  It‘s a SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY investigation that answers some of the major questions in this case, but, unfortunately for the Smith family, it raises some even larger ones. 

SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY talked to this man.  He is a Turkish reporter who has been covering the story there.  And the headlines are screaming love boat murder.  Well, this reporter had an amazing access to Turkish authorities.  He went behind the scenes, and he got information that no reporter in the world has gotten so far. 

Let‘s take a listen to what he has learned. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LATIF SANSUR, DOGAN NEWS AGENCY (through translator):  The prosecutor also questioned some crew members who brought Mr. Smith to his cabin.  They testified that he was drunk that night, and they just took him to his cabin, and that‘s all they knew. 

The heart of the prosecutor‘s investigation was who saw Mr. Smith for the last time and what happened before he disappeared.  The crew members and some eyewitnesses informed the prosecutor that the couple was drinking a lot with their friends and making a lot of noise, disturbing the other passengers. 

So, after the complaints, three or four crew members carried him to his cabin around 3:30 a.m.  Mrs. Smith went to the cabin before the crew took Mr. Smith.  And nobody saw Mr. Smith again.  The next morning, the housekeeper saw some blood marks in their cabin and reported it to the captain. 

The Turkish prosecutor was complaining about not having enough time to investigate. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  So, to recap, according to a Turkish reporter on the inside of the investigation there, the Turkish prosecutor and his team who first responded to the scene on the ship questioned three to four crew members in the disappearance of George Smith, who told them that they carried George Smith to his cabin at 3:30 a.m.

Now, that‘s important.  Now, remember that time, 3:30 a.m., because we are going to be talking to the person who was next door that night and heard all the fighting and the commotion. 

Now, the prosecutor was frustrated in the case because he said he didn‘t have enough time to investigate before the ship left port, which, again, just absolutely unbelievable. 

We asked Royal Caribbean if any members of the Brilliance of the Seas crew were questioned about George Smith‘s disappearance and if they are targets now of the investigation, because, let‘s face it, friends.  This new information from Turkey is the first time anybody has talked about crew members being suspects in this case. 

Well, let me read you Royal Caribbean‘s response—quote—“We talked to several guests and crew about the Smiths and they shared any information we learned with FBI agents investigating George Smith‘s disappearance.”

That was it.  The question is, “we”? 

I will tell you what.  We are going to talk about that and a lot more coming up next, and also going to be talking to a man who was on the ship right next door to George Smith.  He has talked to the FBI finally, because, of course, he came to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY first, before the FBI investigated it.  But, tonight, he is here again live, and we are going to ask him about new information that we dug up in Turkey and how it lines up with what he heard that night next door to George Smith‘s cabin. 

And then, boy, this is a shocker for a lot of people in Gotham.  He was the monsignor of the most famous cathedral in the country.  Now a sex scandal with a woman he married 20 years ago—actually, he didn‘t marry, but he performed the ceremony—it‘s forced him to resign.  The surveillance photos that forced him out coming up exclusively in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  The results of our exclusive investigation into the missing honeymooner.  We have got a lot more details coming up in an exclusive interview.

But, first, here‘s the latest news that you and your family need to know. 

(NEWS BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. 

We are going to be talking in a minute about the monsignor in New York City that got busted in a scandal, again, going to be talking about it in just a minute. 

But, right now, let‘s go back to, again, the story that so many people have been following across the country.  I‘m telling you, friends, we have been inundated by e-mails about missing honeymooner George Smith IV.  And, also, a lot of people talking about an exclusive interview we had with Clete Hyman. 

Now, remember, he stayed in the cabin next door to George and Jennifer Smith.  Clete is also deputy chief of police in Redlands, California. 

Clete, thanks so much for being back with us. 

You know, the last time you were on, the information that you gave viewers, just surprising to so many people.  I understand, at the time, the FBI had not interviewed you, but from the time you came on and gave all that information, has the FBI gotten in touch with you and got information from you about what you heard that night? 

CLETE HYMAN, PASSENGER ON CRUISE:  Yes, they have.  We had a very extensive interview. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Did they give you any explanation as to why they had not talked to you before they saw you on our show? 

HYMAN:  Well, they did indicate that they have a lot of witnesses to run down.  This investigation is being headed out of back East.  So, what they were trying to do was coordinate those witnesses on the West Coast, try to coordinate those all together, so they could come out and do them at one time. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I see.  OK.  Well, I would probably—I would probably start with the person who was next door. 

We—we heard some new information earlier from a Turkish

investigator that we hired to track down information on this case.  He

talked about crew members taking George Smith back to his cabin, which, of

course, again, right next door to you, around 3:30 a.m.  Now, I would like

·        if you would, walk us through your—your—your chain of events that happened that night and how these new three or four crew members may play into your story. 

What happened that night?  What did you hear? 

(CROSSTALK)

HYMAN:  Well, Joe, at a little bit after 4:00 in the morning, my wife and I were awoken by what sounded like a drinking party next door.  You could hear voices, basically, cheering somebody on, like a typical college drinking party. 

There was two specific instances where we heard the voices get very loud, and then they would lower.  This went on.  It took a couple of minutes.  And then, after that point, what we heard was just loud talking, like you might hear at a party.  At that point, just outside the door of the room, we heard several voices.  It sounded like both male and female voices. 

We couldn‘t tell whether those voices were coming or going, but we assumed people were leaving.  Those voices faded away very rapidly.  And then, again, inside the room, we could hear talking. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, let me ask you, what time was that, Clete?  What time would you say those voices that you heard talking leaving? 

HYMAN:  The voices leaving were probably, oh, maybe—approximately 10 minutes after 4:00. 

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  So, and then what happened after that? 

HYMAN:  Well, there was, again, just loud talking in the room, off and on, in various parts of the room.

And then, in a couple minutes, we heard what was arguing out on the balcony.  This arguing was clearly male voices.  There was probably three, possibly four voices out on the balcony.  This argument probably went on two minutes, at which time you could hear a male voice saying, good night, good night.  It appeared that they were trying to usher these other individuals out of the room. 

You could actually hear the voices progress through the room to the front door.  At this time, we could hear the door open and close.  I peeked out our door and could see a couple of male subjects walking down the hallway. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, when you—how—how old were those male subjects?  Can you describe them for me? 

HYMAN:  Well, I don‘t want to go into too much detail because of the ongoing investigation.  They were three male subjects, approximately in their mid 20s. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And, of course, that fits the description of the three young men that the FBI is focused on right now. 

Who—could it possibly also have been crew members?  How were they dressed? 

HYMAN:  Well, I can say that, if they were crew members, they obviously were not dressed as such, so it would mean that the crew members were off duty.  And that‘s not what they are supposed to be doing.  It‘s against their rules to fraternize with the passengers.  So, I would have to make the assumption that they were not crew members. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And one—one final question.  You had said that you heard arguing out on the balcony.  We keep hearing that two of these men are Russians.  Did they speak in an accent or a foreign tongue? 

HYMAN:  We could not understand what the argument was about.  And we could not make out the language.  What we could hear that was clear was the person ushering them out, saying good night. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, did that person—we have heard that George Smith IV was inebriated that night.  Did the person that was saying good night, good night, sound sober?  Did they sound like they were impaired by drinking great quantities of alcohol? 

HYMAN:  It would be difficult to tell because it was, of course, in the other room.  However, we could hear the voice pretty clearly. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.

Clete, stay with us. 

When we come back, I am going to bring in our panel to respond to information that you have got. 

Also, we have got more exclusive information on our investigation from Turkey, including what the investigators told our producers about what he found in George Smith‘s cabin.  There was blood everywhere. 

And then, the surveillance cameras caught him going into a motel and coming out five hours later.  And he was just happening to be one of the most important priests, not only in New York City, but in all America.

The sex scandal rocking St. Patrick‘s Cathedral—when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. 

Our SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY investigation continues with new information about the blood found in and around George Smith‘s cabin.  Here‘s what we learned exclusively from the Turkish prosecutor investigating the disappearance. 

He tells us George Smith was staying on the ninth floor in cabin 9062.  Investigators found blood in the bed, blood on a white towel, and also blood on a shelf.  Turkish authorities closed their investigation on July 22, sent blood samples and other evidence to the U.S. Justice Department and the FBI.

Right now, let‘s bring in our panel, former prosecutor Pamela Davis, criminal defense attorney Joe Tacopina, and former FBI profiler Candice DeLong.  Also, we still have Clete Hyman with us. 

I want to start with you, Joe.  What do you make of the information that we are gathering tonight, not only from Clete, but also from this investigation? 

JOE TACOPINA, TRIAL ATTORNEY:  Well, what I make of it, Joe, is that the story seems to be moving as fast as that ship was.

I mean, initially, we started with the focus on the wife.  Then it came off the wife, and went onto these two Russians and this California teen.  You know, now, if you listen to this story by the witness, who, by the way, I think is probably the key to this case—the man you have on this very show, I think, is possibly the key to this case.

(CROSSTALK)

TACOPINA:  And, you know, you still have a problem here, though, Joe, in solving this case. 

Unless someone cracks, you have no body.  So, you don‘t know the cause of death.  You have a moving crime scene.  You have international passengers and international witnesses who have since dispersed.  You know, you have a whole host of problems.  What this witness is basically saying is that there could have been a number of people in and out that room around or about the time of this death. 

Was it accidental?  Was it foul play?  Were one or more people involved?  I mean, these are all unanswered questions.  The one thing, the X-factor here, Joe, is that California teen who has a lawyer.  If you listen to that lawyer‘s statements, apparently, that witness, that teenager has been cooperating with the U.S. attorney and the FBI.

If that‘s, in fact, true, that could be the crack in the case here.  That could be the cooperating witness who gets immunity to sort of lay out the details. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Pamela Davis, what do you think? 

PAMELA DAVIS, FORMER PROSECUTOR:  You know, I am not as interested in the new information, I think, because I—listening to what the previous story was, I think that this new information fits into the timeline.  I don‘t think that we are looking at the cruise ship as necessarily having its members involved. 

If they were there at 3:00 or 3:30 dropping off George Smith at the time, then it makes sense that it‘s after they left that the individuals came back and the partying that was heard by Mr. Hyman occurred.  And it also seems a little inconsistent, though, in that they say that the wife was present in the room.

And, from what I understand, everyone has reported so far that they believe that she was not in the room and that she had passed out in the lounge area.  So, that‘s actually the piece that I found most interesting about the new information, in that it‘s inconsistent with what we have heard before. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And it still—Pamela, it still hasn‘t—we still haven‘t had any clarification on that. 

Let me ask you, Candice DeLong.  You look at the timeline.  You hear about these crew members at 3:30 going to the cabin, dropping George Smith off.  Then all hell appears to break loose, from, again, the person that I also think is the key witness in this case, Clete Hyman.  What is your response? 

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER:  Well, I agree.

He certainly—as witnesses go, he has a tremendous amount of information.  And I agree with Joe Tacopina.  The person that may be able to break this case wide open in terms of what happened, who was there, etcetera, is this teenager from California. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, what do you do to get him to talk? 

DELONG:  Well, for one thing, he is a kid.  He is 17.  And so, he has got that going for him.  But, from my point of view, all right, now, this is just pure speculation. 

Let‘s say for the sake of this discussion that George Smith was murdered, and it was—there was more than one person there.  Generally speaking, when somebody is murdered by more than one person, they are not murdered equally by all three people.  That just doesn‘t happen.  One person is more responsible for this crime than the others, is what I am saying.

And I would go for the person that I certainly believe had as little to do with the crime as possible.  Why should he spend the rest of his life, or a good part of it, in prison for the actions of another person?  So, I would be going in.  And we don‘t know that the kid is the weak leak in the chain or that he—I mean, everything I am saying is speculation.

But, generally speaking, in a case like this, all of the parties are not equally responsible. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, and you know what?  And, again, it is all speculation tonight, but it certainly sounds, reading between the lines, that this California teenager wasn‘t involved in it, but he certainly was there, and that‘s why he is talking. 

Joe Tacopina, if you are representing the young California teen, or if you‘re representing these Russians, do you tell them to keep quiet; it was a moving crime scene; no reason to talk to authorities? 

TACOPINA:  Well, look, if I am trying to prevent charges from being brought against my client, I think the sage advice, the conventional wisdom demands that you tell your client to be quiet, unless you have reason to believe that someone else is going to talk. 

Look, you always have to balance that, Joe, as a defense attorney.  You know, if someone is going to come forward and give information and there‘s more than one people responsible for the crime and your client may be one of them, you know, you have to make a decision.  Do you want your client to be the first in the door, because, eventually, that train leaves the station, and you have missed it.

And if you have missed it, and you want to try and save your client and cooperation is the way to go, you have to be the first in the door. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes. 

TACOPINA:  On the other hand, if no one is going to speak and you don‘t have a body and you have a mess of an investigation, a contaminated crime scene that has literally been washed away, Joe, the best thing that you could do as a defense attorney to prevent your client from being charged is to advise everyone to sit on their hands. 

And there‘s an old saying.  You can either hang together or hang alone.  And, in this instance, if they all keep quiet, I think that‘s the best chance of this case never being solved. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Joe Tacopina, Pamela Davis, Candice DeLong, and, Clete Hyman, especially, thank you so much for being with us tonight.  We really appreciate it. 

Now, coming up, a husband files for diverse, saying there‘s another man, but the other man is a man of the cloth.  Another monsignor has resigned, and all the details of this case the is rocking the Catholic Church in New York City coming up next in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  And we got exclusive photos.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MONSIGNOR EUGENE CLARK, SAINT PATRICK‘S CATHEDRAL:  You must examine your conscience.  I‘m not sure where conscience is in the late 20th century. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  That was Monsignor Eugene Clark talking about morality on the Catholic Church‘s cable network back in the late 1990s.  Well, it‘s a new century, buddy. 

Fast forward to today.  Clark, the 79-year-old rector of New York‘s St. Patrick‘s Cathedral, resigned as pictures surfaced claiming to show an affair with his married 46-year-old assistant, Laura DeFilippo.  Now, Clark has been named as the other man in divorce papers by Laura‘s husband, who has the photos and his wife and the priest entering—of his wife and the priest entering a Hampton‘s motel after lunch last month, and leaving together five hours later, having changed their clothes. 

With me now is Michael Cooke.  He‘s the editor in chief of “The New York Daily News,” where the story broke and where they got those fabulous photos. 

Mr. Cooke, tell those of us who don‘t live in New York City about this story. 

MICHAEL COOKE, EDITOR IN CHIEF, “THE NEW YORK DAILY NEWS”:  Well, good evening, Joe. 

It‘s the old, old story that goes back to the dawn of time of a powerful man stealing another man‘s wife.  And the jilted husband is not very happy. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And this is obviously—for those that aren‘t familiar with New York, obviously, this is one of the most powerful men in the Catholic Church in New York City, right, because, I mean, he...

(CROSSTALK)

COOKE:  This is a very powerful guy.  He is the number two here to the cardinal.  He is the rector of St. Patrick‘s Cathedral, a beautiful, beautiful building.  He is a big guy. He‘s a big guy at the Vatican.  He is huge in the Catholic world, and a very, very big Catholic fund-raiser. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  And this may not have ever come out if there hadn‘t been these divorce proceedings, right?  I mean, that‘s the first time you got any information, again, salacious details about this woman‘s daughter allegedly walking in on them in a hot tub making out with each other. 

(CROSSTALK)

COOKE:  Yes, it‘s pretty grim. 

The husband walked in—walked towards the videotape surveillance

that he had done.  And it shows them going to a restaurant for a very nice

·        out on Long Island for a very nice dinner, a very nice lunch.  Their story is that she gets tired and needs to lie down, so they go to the motel.  She lies down for four or five hours, and their story is, she sleeps, while he does very important paperwork.

And then, four or five hours later, they come out of the motel, looking refreshed.

(LAUGHTER)

COOKE:  But they‘re not changing their story.  Their story is absolute denial, nothing wrong.  The monsignor resigned—quote—“for the good of the church”—unquote. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  And, again—go ahead.

COOKE:  She is saying nothing.  She is saying nothing. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  And, again, in the divorce papers, the 14-year-old daughter is claiming she walked in...

COOKE:  Right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  ... with her sitting on the monsignor‘s lap in a hot tub. 

COOKE:  Yes. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  And also at his place. 

COOKE:  Well, in our—in our relentless pursuit of the truth, I should tell you that that‘s not in the divorce papers.  That‘s in an affidavit that went into a police report, where the daughter says those things, that she was—sat on his knee in her bra and panties and they were making out.  That‘s quite—quite horrid stuff. 

SCARBOROUGH:  We are showing photos that “New York Daily News” got exclusively.  How did you come across these surveillance photos? 

COOKE:  The surveillance photos were taken by a private investigator hired by the mad and angry husband.  And I mean mad in the angry sense. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thank you so much.  Greatly appreciate you being with us, Michael Cooke...

COOKE:  Good to be here. 

SCARBOROUGH:  ... bringing us this story. 

We‘ll be right back in a second in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  As you know, we have been breaking news on this cruise story out of the Mediterranean from the very beginning, getting what I believe and what Joe Tacopina said earlier tonight was the key witness in the case. 

If you have got information, e-mail me at Joe@MSNBC.com

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  You loved him as a kid.  You trust him as a mother. 

Ladies and gentlemen, Tucker Carlson. 

(LAUGHTER)

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, “THE SITUATION”:  Joe Scarborough, I didn‘t even know you were talking about me.  I am so impressed.  Thank you very much. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, I was.  I was.

(LAUGHTER)

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, have a great show, Tucker, baby. 

CARLSON:  Thanks, Joe.  You‘re the best.  Appreciate it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You too. 

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END   

Content and programming copyright 2005 MSNBC.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc. ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon MSNBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

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