updated 8/18/2005 10:46:28 AM ET 2005-08-18T14:46:28

Guest: Kevin O‘Connor, Any Davis, Peter Gorski, Paul Carlsted, Gerald Boyle, Clint Van Zandt Arthur Wood, Louis Koerner, Brian Oxman, Dickie Turner, Daniel Otero, Carmen Montoya, Arlyn Smith,

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  We are LIVE AND DIRECT from Wichita, Kansas.  We‘re here at the courthouse where a cold-blooded killer, one of America‘s worst serial killers, is facing the families of the 10 people that he brutally murdered.  Dennis Rader calls himself BTK for what he did to his victims: bind, torture and kill.  We‘re going to have exclusive pictures of the crime scenes.  The details of his sick crimes are coming out, and what‘s more amazing, how cold-hearted they say he is.  Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  During this, did you get a feeling as to whether or not Mr. Rader was sorry about what he had done?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  OK.  And would it be fair to say that Mr. Rader was actually very proud of what he had done?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes.  He commented to me at one point, I‘m sorry, I know this is a human being, but I‘m a monster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Incredible testimony.  And we‘re going to hear from the families of his victims in just a few minutes.  But first, the man who was leading the case in court today, Wichita assistant district attorney Kevin O‘Connor, joins me now.  Kevin, how tough was this for you in court today?

KEVIN O‘CONNOR, WICHITA ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY:  Well, it‘s a hard day.  It‘s tough stuff to put on.  It‘s very hard to listen to.  It‘s very hard to see even though I‘ve seen these things many times over.  But you know, what you say to yourself is, it‘s much harder on the victims‘ families today, and you have to be sensitive to them.  We know what they‘re going through, and we hope that they understand.  And we spend a lot of time talking to them.  They understand why we‘re doing this.

COSBY:  I mean, it‘s tough stuff.  Let‘s show some of the pictures, if we could, in fact, some of the crime scenes.  This was very tough to see in court today.  And as you point out, it was important for people to see.  This is the scene of Shirley Vian, right?

O‘CONNOR:  Yes.  This is a photograph from the Shirley Vian murder.  What‘s important about this is that we‘ve heard facts today where Dennis Rader herded the children, the kids, into this bathroom.  You can see the cord coming down where he tied the door shut.  Tied it, and you can see the toys that he threw in supposedly to entertain the children as he murdered their mother on the other side of that door that you see in this picture.

COSBY:  And we have some more pictures from the Shirley Vian scene, if we could show the next one, too, of our exclusive pictures from the crime scene.  This is actually, unfortunately, Shirley Vian, right?

O‘CONNOR:  Yes, it is.  It shows her feet, the binding, the intricate binding that went on.  You have black electrical tape.  And then you see this cord wrapped around her ankles, going back and forth.  And if you had the whole shot there, you would see that it was kind of an elaborate binding that went up around her waist, around her wrists and up back around her neck.  What you‘re hearing in court is that the imagery of the whole binding was important to Dennis Rader for his sick fantasies that he had that he put on there.

COSBY:  And this is also from the scene?  This is the bedpost, correct?

O‘CONNOR:  Yes.  And we believe this is the bedpost here.  Shirley Vian was tied—not only tied like you saw, but she was also tied to the bed, all part of the imagery, all part of this fantasy, all part of the sick perversion that drove this man to kill.

COSBY:  And speaking of sick perversion, we have just a stunning picture that we‘re going to show here for the first time of Dennis Rader.  Pretty graphic stuff.  This is actually Dennis Rader basically naked, right, hanging upside-down?

O‘CONNOR:  Yes, he‘s out somewhere, and we‘re not sure exactly where, but it‘s somewhere out in Kansas, where he has hung himself . He‘s bound himself.  What he had—he really liked dressing up in the clothes of women.  A lot of times, he would take the victims‘ clothes, even, that he had killed and dress up and took these photographs and bind himself.  This is a photograph he sent in—a photocopy of this he sent in, in one of his communications, suggesting it was a young man that committed suicide here.

COSBY:  So he sent this in to authorities sort of trying to get everybody off the bait (ph).

O‘CONNOR:  Right.  And then he said in the interview that he was just blowing smoke.  He was trying to get the police off his tail.  And what we did is we found that photograph in his—what he called his “motherlode.”

COSBY:  And some other photos, too, that you want to show us, as well. 

What is this picture of, if you could hold this hear?

O‘CONNOR:  This here is a photograph.  This again is back in the Shirley Vian scene.  As you heard, Shirley Vian was wrapped up, bound.  And there‘s a plastic bag you see.  When the emergency personnel, police and emergency personnel came in, they removed that.  But that‘s the bed that Shirley Vian was murdered on and was propped up against that bathroom door, where the kids were just on the other side.

COSBY:  Now, this monster tortured a lot of people.  He bound them, as you pointed out, some with rope, some with pantyhose.  You have actually some of the rope that was actually used by Dennis Rader on another crime scene.

O‘CONNOR:  Right.  As you can imagine, we‘ve obtained—and law enforcement even dating back into ‘74, if you heard today, you saw that they collected semen stains from ‘74 that we were able to test with DNA.  So they did a good job in getting this.  This is—this is the bindings.  If that—Vickie Wegerle was bound.  This came off of her right wrist in her autopsy.  It‘s also...

COSBY:  This is actually wrapped around her wrist...

O‘CONNOR:  Wrists, and...

(CROSSTALK)

O‘CONNOR:  You have some string, some sturdy string and a leather nylon lace.  I believe it‘s nylon lace, that shoelace that he used to bind her.  And she died a horrible death.  He—she‘s one that he said she fought like a hellcat, just like Katherine Bright (ph) did back in ‘74.

COSBY:  (INAUDIBLE) about this guy, in court, you know, and in the testimony that was played today in court, bragging about what he did, even using sort of the expression, I‘m sure just so gut-wrenching for victims and I‘m sure for investigators—but to hear this man basically calling himself a John Wayne, comparing himself to James Bond at one point.

O‘CONNOR:  Well, and there was a—where I drew an objection, when I said he‘s no John Wayne.  He is extremely proud of what he did.  And he‘s so warped and so out of there, so disconnected, that he takes pride in what he does, absolute pride in what he does.

COSBY:  Why is it important?  I think it‘s important to people at home why you and the DA‘s office said, We have to show this graphic stuff today and tomorrow.  Why did you feel it was critical?

O‘CONNOR:  Well, one, it‘s very important to this community.  Here‘s a man who terrorized this community for 30 years.  We still hear from people who say—women who say the first thing they did when they came into their house was they checked their phone lines.  It‘s also very important to put a legal record for this, so anybody looking at this later knows that he got the sentence that he got not because somebody was pressured into it or it was just BTK, so they gave him it, they know a full record and a full accounting.

It‘s also important that we want to ask for certain conditions that happen to him at the Kansas Department of Corrections because as you heard today, here‘s a man who could look at a photograph, a model, of somebody in a newspaper ad, and it would turn him on.  And so he shouldn‘t be able to see that kind of things (INAUDIBLE)

COSBY:  And he should never see the light of day, either.  Thank you very much, Kevin O‘Connor.  We appreciate you being here.

O‘CONNOR:  Thank you.

COSBY:  You did a good job in a very difficult case.  We appreciate it.

O‘CONNOR:  Thank you.

COSBY:  And it‘s been an anguishing day here at the courthouse as the victims‘ families hear the gruesome details of how their loved ones were tortured and killed, especially for the Otero family.  Their parents, Joseph and Julie, and two of their siblings were Rader‘s first victims.  They listened as investigators gave the gruesome details, including the disturbing final moments of the youngest girl, Josephine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  She then asked, What‘s going to happen to me?  And he told her that she would soon be in heaven with the others.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Did Mr. Rader exhibit any, any kind of remorse whatsoever?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  No, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Very tough day.  And we‘re joined now by Danny Otero and his sister, Carmen Montaya, who were in court today, and also their civil attorney, Peter Gorski (ph).  Thank you, all of you.  We know this must have just been probably the worst day of your lives, other than what happened years ago.  And this must just be—we really appreciate you being here.

DANIEL OTERO, RELATIVE OF FIRST BTK VICTIMS:  Thank you.

COSBY:  How tough was it,  Danny, for you to hear today and just hear some of the testimony that was just gut-wrenching for us, even, as reporters, to hear?

OTERO:  It was probably the hardest thing I‘ve done in my life.  It was grisly.  it was detailed.  And we pretty much had an idea of what was to come, but to actually be here and to see it and hear it and to know the actual story of those final moments, it was hard to take.

COSBY:  And Carmen, you were very close to little Josephine.  You know, we covered this story.  It‘s just—it‘s gut-wrenching.  Here she was, just 11 years old.  And today to hear some of the stories of how she was tortured—just what went through your mind when you heard that?

CARMEN MONTOYA, RELATIVE OF FIRST BTK VICTIMS:  It hurt a lot, you know?  Nobody should have to feel any kind of pain like that, and to know that it was just a sweet little girl was really tough.

COSBY:  She was crying out for your mom.

MONTOYA:  Yes.  Yes.  I think that was the hardest part.  We didn‘t know exactly what had happened to the little ones, and seeing it on the screen was really tough.  And to hear my parents‘ last words and their last words was extremely difficult.

COSBY:  How tough to look at those pictures, Carmen, too?

MONTOYA:  Yes, but you know, we felt like we had to come here and get through this, so that‘s what we had to do.  We had to do it.

COSBY:  Did you understand why, Danny, too—and we just heard from Kevin O‘Connor—why they felt it was critical to show the graphic nature (INAUDIBLE) Do you think it was appropriate?

OTERO:  They worked very hard to bring this case to fruition.  They—they did what was necessary.  This man needs to be put away.  Everybody knows it.  The Wichita law enforcement community did a fine job in what they had to do.  I support them 100 percent.  It was hard to take.  It really was.  But I know that everything they did was necessary in order to accomplish what they wanted to do, and it was done.

COSBY:  What was the toughest moment for you today, Danny?

OTERO:  To see the pictures of my two siblings, my brother and sister.  I never knew the whole story for 31 years, and now I know.  And to see them hanging and suffocated in such a fashion, it was horrifying.  I‘ll never forget it.

COSBY:  What do you want to happen to this monster?  I mean, here‘s this man—and bless your hearts, you had to listen today  that he tortured them, you know, left them to live and then tortured them again.  What do you think should happen to this man?

MONTOYA:  Well, you know, as long as he doesn‘t see the light of day, he just has himself to keep himself company and sit back for the next 50, 60 years, thinking about what he did, you know, I‘m going to have to be OK with that, as long as he‘s not on the streets anymore, because our life goes on.  His is done.

COSBY:  What would you like to see happen, Danny?

OTERO:  The death penalty.  I mean, that‘s the least.  But we‘ll have to be satisfied with what the judicial system has for him.

COSBY:  And Unfortunately, it wasn‘t reinstated until after the crimes took place, so he‘s not eligible.

OTERO:  No, not at this time.

COSBY:  I‘m sure you want to see life in prison, though, and never for him to have parole.

OTERO:  That‘ll have to do.

COSBY:  All right.  Both of you, stick with us, if you could.  We‘ve got a lot more coming up after the break.  I want to talk with you, and we also want to talk with your attorney, as well.  We give you a lot of courage and a lot of credit for coming here today.  Thank you very much.  And stay with us, if you could.

And everybody at home, there‘s still a lot more to come.  What you‘ve heard so far on the BTK killer is just the beginning.  Coming up: He was friends with the homicidal sociopath for 30 years and never knew it, an exclusive interview with one of BTK‘s best friends.  And I‘ll take you for an exclusive look at the home where Dennis Rader obsessed over his deadly plans.

Then, LIVE AND DIRECT from Aruba, why the named suspect in the Natalee Holloway case could be days away from walking free.  Plus: Is this the scene of the crime on the island?  We‘ll take you there for the first time.

And Michael Jackson is accused again.  Can the “King of Pop” beat this one?  Plus: “The material girl” falls off her high horse.  Her riding instructor gives us a lesson.  That‘s tonight LIVE AND DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Instead of facing the death penalty, this is what the BTK killer is looking at, this prison cell in El Dorado (ph) Correctional Facility.  It‘s located about 30 miles from here in Wichita.  This is where he will soon call home.  That could happen as early as tomorrow.

Well, it‘s a far cry from the simple, everyday home where Dennis Rader spent his time planning and obsessing over his reign of terror.  For the very first time, we take you to the BTK killer‘s home that he shared with his wife, who had no idea that she was living with a mass murderer.  She lived with him, remember, in that home for almost 30 years.  We went there with former detective Arlyn Smith, who chased BTK for several years, as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Arlyn, as we walk up here to Dennis Rader‘s house, where he lived for almost three decades with his family, especially with his wife in the final years, what are your initial thoughts?

ARLYN SMITH, FORMER DETECTIVE:  The house is just absolutely ordinary.

COSBY:  Oh, and Dennis Rader was a compliance officer for the city for years.  Park his vehicle here, his registered vehicle.  And from what I understand, he carried bags, his hip bag here, either into the kitchen or through the living room door.  So nobody would have seen anything unusual, any of the neighbors, right?

SMITH:  Well, absolutely.  Both of the doors are quite close to the driveway.  He would park the car or truck, would almost conceal you as you walked into the side door of the house.  And the layout of this driveway and the house are quite common in Kansas.  It would not be at all unusual to be carrying items in or out.  And your next-door neighbor wouldn‘t be able to see a thing.

COSBY:  Now, this is Dennis Rader‘s back yard.  And we understand that authorities were looking right here in this lean-to, correct?

SMITH:  That‘s my understanding, that there were some items located in this shed or lean-to that were taken as evidence.

COSBY:  We understand they took some clothes, took a number of items.  They were scouring this place pretty thoroughly.

SMITH:  Oh, I‘m sure that they went over it with a fine-toothed comb.  I‘m sure that every stone was turned over.

COSBY:  So only about 50 feet from the house is this, the shed.

SMITH:  Yes.

COSBY:  And what was found in here by authorities?  We know they scoured this.

SMITH:  Well, we know that they scoured the shed.  They removed quite a few items from here.  As I understand, they were turned in as physical evidence.  I don‘t have a list of what was found, but I understand that there was an extensive amount of items removed.

COSBY:  Yes, I‘m told some jewelry, some photos.  Are you astounded?  Here he is, storing mementos from his killings just 50 feet from his house.

SMITH:  Well, I am.  It makes me wonder about the relationships of the people that lived here on this contract property and how they—how he would store items virtually under the noses of the other people in his family without being discovered.

COSBY:  We‘re here in the back yard, and we‘re looking at the bedroom windows.  There‘s three bedrooms in this house, one bathroom.  That‘s tight quarters.

SMITH:  It‘s very tight quarters.  And for a family to live here with three small bedrooms and one bathroom, that means that there‘s virtually no privacy for anyone here.

COSBY:  As we look here at Dennis Rader‘s house, ordinary house, ordinary neighborhood, guy with an ordinary job.  He was living the ultimate facade.

SMITH:  We run into a number of people that have dual lives, the so-called daytime lives and the night-time lives.  But typically, there would be some twilight in between, some part of their life that was—had some characteristics of both.  And we haven‘t seen that in Rader.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  You know, it was incredible to see this.  And I also sat down with Dennis Rader‘s longtime friend, Paul Carlsted.  He, too, had no idea that his friend of 30 years could have done these horrible crimes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL CARLSTED, DENNIS RADER‘S BEST FRIEND:  I met Dennis after we moved to Wichita in July of 1975.  My wife and I were looking for a church.  We found Christ Lutheran.  We started attending, and one of the first Sundays, we met Dennis and his family.

COSBY:  Was there any warning sign, anything you saw unusual about his behavior?

CARLSTED:  I‘ve never seen anything that was unusual, that pointed to Dennis to be other than the Dennis Rader that I knew, who was a family man.

COSBY:  Give us a sense of who Dennis Rader was as a man.

CARLSTED:  Dennis was always willing to help.

COSBY:  And yet he had this stunning dark side.

CARLSTED:  Apparently, he did, that nobody saw, and nobody can figure out where it was or anything else.

COSBY:  You saw him how many days before he was arrested?

CARLSTED:  I saw him two days before he was arrested, on Wednesday evening.

COSBY:  And what was he doing then?

CARLSTED:  He was on his way down to visit his mother, who was hospitalized.  And we were having a church dinner, and he brought some spaghetti sauce for the church dinner because he had signed up for it not realizing that his mother was going to be in hospital.

COSBY:  He was an active member of the church.  You were the president, at one point, in 2004.

CARLSTED:  I was the president for all of 2004, and he was my vice president.

COSBY:  And then he became the president in ‘05, when he was arrested.

CARLSTED:  He became the president and took never January of ‘05 and was arrested in February of ‘05.

COSBY:  How did you find out that he was BTK?

SMITH:  On Friday, the day before he was arrested, I was called by the pastor, and the pastor came over to the house and talked with me and my wife and told us that a member of the congregation had been arrested for the BTK killings and that it was a member of the congregation and that it was Dennis Rader.

COSBY:  And what was your reaction?

SMITH:  Reaction was, Come again?  We don‘t believe—who did you say?  It was disbelief.  And we had to ask him—even as we talked, we would ask him, Are you sure?  Is this correct?  Are you talking about the Dennis Rader that we know?

COSBY:  When you saw his chilling confession in court, what went through your mind?

SMITH:  That that was not the Dennis Rader that I had known for 30 years.  He sounded cold.  He sounded calculating.  He didn‘t sound like the Dennis Rader that I knew.

COSBY:  How‘s his wife doing?  You‘ve talked to his wife.

SMITH:  She‘s doing as well as can be expected for somebody that has gone through this traumatic experience.

COSBY:  How‘s the church holding up?  I know the church went through some counseling sessions.

SMITH:  We‘ve had counseling sessions every time it comes up.  The church is doing very well.  We‘ve had visitors.  We talk about it openly.  We pray for Dennis.  We pray for Paula, the family, all the victims and everybody that has been touched by this situation.

COSBY:  He‘s still a member of the church.

SMITH:  He will always be a member unless he requests a transfer of membership or something else happens.

COSBY:  Have you talked to Dennis since he was arrested?

SMITH:  I‘ve not talked to Dennis.  I doubt if I will.  I don‘t have any desire to talk with him.  I believe that the Dennis that in jail is not the Dennis that I knew beforehand, and I don‘t know if—I don‘t know what I would say to him, and I don‘t know how I would feel.  So I just decided that, no, I won‘t go see him.

COSBY:  If you were to see him, what would you say?  Would you look him in the eye?

SMITH:  I guess the only question that I would have is why.  And I think that‘s what everybody wants to know.  I think we‘re hearing the—we‘ve heard the confessions.  We‘ve heard the graphic detail today.  And again, the question is why.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  The question everybody‘s asking.

Dolores Davis was Dennis Rader‘s last victim.  And joining me now on the phone is her granddaughter, Amy Davis.  And we‘re also still here joined by—in Wichita with the Otero family.  We have Danny and also Carmen and also their attorney, Peter Gorski.

let me go, if I could, real quick to Amy.  I know you‘re on the phone. 

Amy, this was just a gut-wrenching day for you, right?

AMY DAVIS, BTK VICTIM‘S GRANDDAUGHTER:  It was.  It was, but it wasn‘t just about our family, it was about all the other families that were there.  And I know my family drew great strength from meeting the other victims‘ family members, and I was personally amazed and taken aback by all the victims‘ strength, the Oteros, the Relfords, you know, the Fox family.  I - - (INAUDIBLE) the few people that I met today, these people are amazing people, and they should be proud of how strong that they are.  You know, it was very...

COSBY:  You bet.

DAVIS:  - positive in the same light.

COSBY:  You know, it is incredible just to see the strength and the wonderful relationship and also the support you‘re getting from each other.  How tough was it for you, Amy, to see these—you know, the crime scene pictures, your beautiful grandmother, the oldest victim of Dennis Rader, strangled with pantyhose, her own pantyhose?  That must have just been so tough.

DAVIS:  We did not get to that point today, but everything that we learned—they cut mid-way through my grandmother‘s case.  But everything we learned up to this point was not shocking to us.  We knew everything.  The detectives had been up front with us about a lot of things, so this wasn‘t shocking.  It was, however—it was just as painful today, just as gut-wrenching to watch these other victims and the other families because you feel just as much for them as you do for your loved ones.  It doesn‘t lessen the pain that you feel when you see these other people.  They‘ve gone through just as much as you do, and you feel for all of them.  You just want to embrace them and tell them, you know, you‘re praying for them and that, you know, you‘re with them.

He—at this point, Dennis Rader can do nothing to any of us anymore.  I think we‘re all becoming stronger because of all of this, and we will all prevail over this evil, evil, evil creature.

COSBY:  You bet.  And you know, people who knew this evil creature didn‘t have any guidance, didn‘t have any sense of who he was.  In fact, I want to show a comment from Paul Carlsted basically saying there was no warning, and this guy knew him for 30 years.  Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSTED:  I believe everybody that has known him for any length of time has now gone back through all those days and all those times and said, What did we missed?  How did we miss it?  And there‘s nothing that we can come up with that pointed to anything that Dennis Rader was anybody other than who we knew he was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Are you stunned, both of you, that no one seemed to detect this guy, even his friend of 30 years?

OTERO:  It‘s amazing, but there are people out there like that, dual personalities, people who are everyday members of the community, I mean, and, you know, pillars of the community, even.  And they lead double lives.  That‘s the reason why this man was able to evade detection for so long.

COSBY:  And he‘s obviously going to be facing a lot of court action. 

I understand, Peter—civil suit also.  Tell us about that.

PETER GORSKI, OTERO FAMILY CIVIL ATTORNEY:  Civil suit was filed on behalf of the Otero family about three weeks ago.  All the family members that were present in court today are all represented by several different attorneys.  There‘s four of us in total that are lead attorneys.  We have begun to speak with each other and try to cooperate with each other.  There‘s quite a camaraderie that exists between these people that have shared just an unimaginable experience that most people will never know.

COSBY:  What are you going say, Carmen, in court tomorrow?

MONTAYA:  Tomorrow, I‘m not going to...

COSBY:  You have a chance to speak.  This is your moment to speak to this monster.

MONTAYA:  Yes.  You know, I‘m not even going to address him.  He knows what he did.  We came home and found what he did.  I think it‘s real important that the people of Wichita hear about what our family was like because they all have the same feelings.  They miss their loved ones, as we do ours, but I think it‘s just really important at this point that they know a little bit about them.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  And so we have a sense of the human, the wonderful lives that they had.

MONTAYA:  Yes, positive.  I‘m tired of the negative.

COSBY:  And Amy, what are you planning?  Are you going to be speaking tomorrow in court?

DAVIS:  Well, my grandmother...

COSBY:  Amy, are you here?

DAVIS:  I‘m here.  Can you hear me?  Hello?

COSBY:  Yes.  Are you going to be talking, or anybody from your family...

(CROSSTALK)

DAVIS:  My father and his sister will be speaking tomorrow.  We‘re going to—they have very different perspectives.  Laurel (ph) was actually going to be speaking from the perspective of my grandmother.  My mother wrote this beautiful letter about what my grandmother would have said, if she had the chance.  It‘s kind of from my grandmother‘s perspective.  And then my father has his own perspective of it.

But we have something that we‘ve created that we‘ve kind of put together for all the families, the victims‘ families, something that we want to bring up, something really positive, at the end of this all, I mean, something that we think everyone deserves, to kind of reflect on it.  And we just want to bring the positive out in this whole situation.

COSBY:  Now, it sounds beautiful.  And both of you, before I leave, both of you, Carmen and Danny, I know there‘s something that you want to say to the community.  You want to take this opportunity to speak from your heart real quick.

OTERO:  I would like to say on behalf my family and myself, thank you to the city of Wichita, to the law enforcement community, to the public.  They‘ve shown such an outpouring of love, and they‘ve really helped us out in this time of need.  We really needed this emotional support, and I just want to extend that to the whole community.

COSBY:  Carmen, go ahead.

MONTAYA:  When we left here 30 years ago, it was all evil and sad and pretty scary, and it‘s wonderful to see that there‘s such great people out here in Wichita and us getting to know quite a bit of them.  It‘s a great experience.  I want to thank them for that.

COSBY:  Well, we thank all of and we again applaud you for your courage for being here.  We‘ll be with you both tomorrow in court and keeping you in our prayers.  Thank you, all of you.

MONTAYA:  Thank you.

OTERO:  Thank you.

COSBY:  Thank you very much.  And Amy, thank you, too.

And coming up: Is there anything that the families could say to break through to a cold-blooded killer?

The families of Jeffrey Dahmer‘s victims exploded in rage at his sentencing hearing, and even his lawyer says he did not flinch.  He‘s going to join us next.

Plus, we‘re LIVE AND DIRECT from Aruba, an exclusive look at a potential crime scene and the shocking truth about Aruban justice that could put Joran Van Der Sloot back on the streets.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Here, tomorrow at the courthouse, relatives of the 10 people murdered by Dennis Rader will be able to confront the cold-blooded killer face-to-face.  But can anything they say break through his thick mind? 

When Milwaukee serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer was sentenced 13 years ago, he showed no emotion as his victims and their families lashed at him in anger and rage. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Never, Jeffrey.  Jeffrey, I hate you!  I hate you!  (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  LIVE & DIRECT now, we have Jeffrey Dahmer‘s attorney, Gerry Boyle. 

Gerry, I‘m sure you remember that moment all too well.  What do you think we can expect here tomorrow in court? 

GERALD BOYLE, DEFENDED JEFFREY DAHMER:  ... the Jeffrey Dahmer interview—I mean, at the Jeffrey Dahmer sentencing, that was the only person that got that irate.  Of course, she had every right to be the way she was.  But the rest of the families were much more subdued and to the point.

My guess is, based upon hearing your great interviews tonight with these folks, that they‘re going to be very dignified.  And you probably won‘t see anything like that in this courtroom, even though they have every reason in the world that somebody might want to do that.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  And, Gerry, you know, talk about the poise of these families that we had here speaking out for the first time.  It is incredible, just the tenacity, the courage that these people have to go in there and want to talk positively.  And they say they‘re going to probably not try to try even look him in the eye, that it‘s going to be tough. 

Right, I mean, that‘s a tough moment. 

BOYLE:  My guess is they‘ll look him in the eye.  And my guess is that‘ll be great and therapeutic for them.  But you might as well be talking to a tree trunk, because he is so intrinsically evil that nothing that could be said to him will make any difference at all. 

And the same was true with Dahmer.  Dahmer, of course, had a mental illness, even though it wasn‘t legally enough to find him not guilty by reason of insanity.  He was very sick.  All the doctors knew he was sick. 

But Dahmer is different from this fellow, because Dahmer made sure all his victims were unconscious before he hurt them.  This guy was getting off on the torture.  And he was just—this guy is as evil as any one possibly could be. 

I tried a serial killer when I was a prosecutor, so evil that you can‘t even define it.  So tomorrow, he‘s having—this is a walk in the park for this guy.  But it‘s very helpful to the victims and the families that they get it off their chest.

And who knows?  Like Dahmer was affected by it two years later.  He started getting some remorse, but until that time, he was just like a tree trunk in that courtroom. 

COSBY:  Absolutely.  And we‘ll begin to watch it very, very closely. 

Gerry, thank you very much.  We appreciate your insights tonight. 

BOYLE:  Great show.  Great show. 

COSBY:  And, of course, everybody, we‘re going to be back with more BTK coverage in a moment. 

But now to our other big story of the day, there‘s a lot of things happening around the world, the Natalee Holloway mystery.  We‘ve got the pictures of what could be a crime scene in her disappearance.

But first, investigators are taking a new tactic in their interrogation of the number-one suspect, Joran Van Der Sloot.  They say he has been tight-lipped, apparently hoping that, without evidence, investigators will have to set him free, September 4th, under Aruban law. 

Also, his defense attorneys went back to court asking for greater access to the case that the prosecution is building against him.  Meanwhile, we‘ve got some information that you won‘t see anywhere else about the man known as the gardener. 

Former FBI agent Clint van Zandt and also investigator Art Wood take us to the scene where this witness says he may have seen the suspects the night that Natalee vanished. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARTHUR WOOD, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT:  What is so significant about this dirt road and this area is that, on the night—in the early morning hours of May 30th, at about 3:00 in the morning, I developed a witness, a Colombian gardener, who claimed that he couldn‘t sleep and he was on his way to his employer‘s house. 

He comes around this turn at 3:00 in the morning.  And he has to come to almost a complete stop because there‘s a car parked here. 

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FRM. FBI PROFILER:  So we got a car parked right here.  He‘s driving down this road and, what, he has got to go over this hump, a larger hump that was here before.  He has to physically drive over this.  He looks to his left.  And he sees these three guys sitting in a car.

WOOD:  That‘s right.  He sees Joran Van Der Sloot driving.  He sees Deepak Kalpoe in the right front seat.  And he sees Satish in the back.  He said Satish ducked down as soon as he looked. 

VAN ZANDT:  And what‘s significant about this, of course, is that we‘ve got the three suspects telling us that by 2:30 in the morning, they were history.  They had gone to their respective homes.  They weren‘t on the road.

And this potential witness, obviously, places them here, places them right across the road from the ocean near the Holiday Inn.  My challenge is, in that five- to 10-second window, no ambient light, no sunlight, no overhead lights, he‘s driving over the hump.  He has to look, see these three guys, take a mental snapshot.

And in court yesterday, he says, “You know, I recognized the car because of the hubcaps.”  And of course, he couldn‘t identify Satish Kalpoe as one of the three when he saw them in court yesterday. 

WOOD:  Well, that‘s a challenge that the prosecutor has to overcome.  But I‘ll tell you what.  At 3:00 in the morning, that would have been a half-hour after those kids claimed to have been home.  And they live a half-hour away. 

The fishermen‘s huts, where they claimed to have just taken Natalee, are right across the street.  And the fact that that car was here should be enough that convince that prosecutor that the three guys were in it. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY:  And Clint and Art are with me now.  They are live from the island of Aruba. 

You know, Clint, going out there and seeing the scene, do you believe the gardener or not? 

VAN ZANDT:  Well, you know, it was just like in the piece you just had.  You and I know, Rita, that 40 percent of the time eyewitness identification is incorrect.  So, you know, unless I‘ve got hard forensics, you know, DNA, fingerprints, I‘m a little suspect.

But as an investigator, as an FBI agent, you‘ve got to have some place to start.  You‘ve got to have an investigative theory.  And the authorities have to run this down as much as they can at this point. 

COSBY:  Art, do you think that is the best theory so far, the best thing to hold onto? 

WOOD:  Well, there‘s a number of things to hold onto, Rita.  As far as the gardener goes, I‘m the one that interviewed him.  And I believed him. 

He‘s a very sincere young man.  I think he was telling the truth.  I spent a lot of years interviewing people.  And I think he‘s telling the truth. 

COSBY:  You do.  Now, the question is, is Joran Van Der Sloot telling the truth, Art?  The new news we are hearing, that he hadn‘t been interrogated for a week.  Why is that? 

WOOD:  Well, first of all, they‘re probably not interrogating him, because he‘s not saying anything.  As I understand it, he has been, for the last month, just been covering his ears. 

He‘s got his attorneys in the room with him when he‘s being interviewed.  And he‘s told he doesn‘t have to say anything.  He‘s waiting for September 4th

COSBY:  Are you stunned, Clint, you know, as a seasoned FBI guy, all the time you spent there, that this guy has not cracked yet? 

VAN ZANDT:  Well, initially, I thought either he or one of the two Kalpoe brothers would have caved in.  Now, you know, Rita, there‘s been, and Art, six, eight, 10 different stories that they‘ve told. 

I mean, I read a statement that Joran gave early on in the investigation where he suggests his belief that Deepak had kidnapped, assaulted, and murdered, and buried Natalee.  So, you know, it‘s one of these he said-she saids that, early on in this investigation, I would have liked to have seen him lock into statements, do all the searches, do all the physical evidence. 

Rita, I found out yesterday that there has never been an official search of the Van Der Sloot home, never.  Here we are three months later, principal suspect, and the closest they did was search an apartment that Joran lived in, but they never executed an official search warrant and searched the entire home.

COSBY:  That is stunning.  And thank you for that new piece of information.  It begs a lot of questions on what they are and what they are not doing. 

Meantime, everybody, the search is widening for a missing 26-year-old mother-to-be.  We told you last night about Amanda Jones who was last seen Sunday just outside of St. Louis, Missouri.  She‘s nine months pregnant and due to give birth next week.  A local task force and the FBI aren‘t giving up, but they‘re worried about her safety. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. TOMMY WRIGHT, JEFFERSON COUNTY, MO, SHERIFF‘S DEPARTMENT:  It‘s somebody that has a, you know, daily routine.  It‘s very unusual for her not to be in contact with anyone or not to be seen by any of her friends for not showing up at work.  This is very unusual.  But not only for her safety, but for her unborn child‘s safety. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And if you or someone you know have any information about the case, call the Jefferson County Sheriff‘s Department, the tip line.  That number is 636-797-5515.  That number again is 636-797-5575.  Of course, if anybody has any information on the case, please be sure to call in, 5515, again is the tip line number. 

And coming up, a riding accident puts Madonna on her back side with a few broken bones.  How did she come out of the saddle?  We‘ll talk to the owner of the London riding school to get the scoop, LIVE & DIRECT.

And next, another guy says Michael Jackson didn‘t just molest him.  He says Jackson held him hostage.  It‘s an incredible story.  It‘s next, LIVE & DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Michael Jackson is in trouble again.  This time, a man is accusing the singer of sexually assaulting him and holding him hostage back in 1984.  The judge in the case slapped Jackson with a $10,000 fine today because he didn‘t show up at a hearing last month. 

Louis Koerner is the defense attorney in the case.  Also with us is Jackson family attorney Brian Oxman.  He joins us on the phone. 

Louis, tell us really quick what your client is alleging.

LOUIS KOERNER, BARTUCCI‘S DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Well, my client is alleging—by the way, I‘m the plaintiff‘s lawyer—my client is alleging that Jackson lured him into his white limousine in New Orleans during the World‘s Fair, and then kept him, drugged him, and engaged in sex and other sort of Satanic things for the next nine days, went all the way out to California, then came back, and just threw him out of the car. 

COSBY:  Now, why is it coming out now?  Why is the allegation—everyone is going, “Well, it was in 1984.”

KOERNER:  Well, it was so horrible that the man repressed it.  He couldn‘t even talk to his mother and father about it.  And so, for the next 20 years, it was like a volcano under the surface. 

And he looked at a Court TV documentary in 2003 involving the child molestation charges against Jackson in California.  And everything came flooding back.  And it‘s amazing how much detail the man remembers. 

COSBY:  OK, let me bring in, if I could, in fairness, Brian Oxman. 

Brian, what‘s your reaction? 

BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY:  This event took place some 20 years ago in May of 1984.  And during that particular period of time, Michael Jackson was visiting the president of the United States, President Reagan and Mrs. Reagan.  And there are photographs of those visits. 

He also was visiting with Willie Nelson on the 23rd of May of 1984. 

And unless this is Hazzard County...

COSBY:  Well, what are you saying, Brian, that this couldn‘t have happened?

OXMAN:  ... and someone drives the General Lee, this is not going to be a valid claim. 

COSBY:  And I got to apologize, everyone, because you‘re probably hearing the fire trucks in the background.  Just another fire, not connected to this case, but just happening here at the courthouse in Wichita. 

Brian, as we continue with you, the claims coming forward now so many years later, are you circumspect of that, too?  I mean, all of a sudden it just trickles back 20 years later? 

OXMAN:  Rita, you have to ask, where were you in May of 1984?  It‘s a difficult thing that you cannot establish with certainty.  But unlike most people in Michael Jackson‘s life, we are able to trace where he was on these particular dates.  And he was nowhere near where this claim is saying he was. 

COSBY:  Louis Koerner, does your client have proof that Michael Jackson was where he says he was, did these things?  Because it sounds like they have records of something else? 

KOERNER:  OK, well, we have affidavits from the limousine company that he rented from, from the limousine driver who was supposed to drive and who did not, and from a Leavy Board Policeman (ph) who saw him in New Orleans. 

In addition to that, I asked Michael Jackson‘s attorneys in April whether all of this was true and they refused to answer.  They said all the information was in a warehouse.  This is the first time I‘ve ever had this other information. 

COSBY:  Real quick, Louis, what are you thinking now?  What are you thinking, Louis? 

KOERNER:  Well, you know, I‘m obviously interested to know whether Michael Jackson was here and whether he did it.  And if he has proof he wasn‘t here, that‘s obviously something really significant. 

COSBY:  And you‘re also seeking monetary damages, correct?  What are you looking for?

KOERNER:  Well, cases like this, Michael Jackson has settled in the past for millions of dollars.  I really don‘t think—I think, at the end of the day, with Michael Jackson‘s financial condition, that we will be very unlikely to ever collect on a large judgment, and that he will file some kind of bankruptcy.

COSBY:  All right, guys, that‘s going to have to be the last word.  That‘s going to have to be the last word.  And again, we got to look at both of these claims, because certainly a lot of questions. 

Thank you very much, both of you. 

Up next, Madonna‘s lucky stars apparently weren‘t much help to her when it comes to horseback riding.  The owner of Madonna‘s riding school tells us what went wrong, LIVE & DIRECT.  That‘s coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  The Material Girl is home tonight.  She‘s recovering from a nasty fall from a horse.  Despite three cracked ribs, a broken collar bone, and a broken hand, Madonna is up and she‘s about, but don‘t expect to see her on stage anytime soon. 

Dickie Turner is the owner of Madonna‘s riding school, and he joins me now LIVE & DIRECT from London.  Mr. Turner, first of all, how long has she been associated with your riding school? 

DICKIE TURNER, STAG LODGE STABLES OWNER:  She‘s come just a few times in the last couple of months. 

COSBY:  How is she doing?  Have you gotten any update on her condition? 

TURNER:  No, we haven‘t.  No, we haven‘t.  I‘m sure at the moment that she‘s just family, and there‘s not much of a press release about it, either.  No, we haven‘t heard. 

COSBY:  And it sounds like pretty bad.  I mean, she broke her rib, bones, her hand.  It‘s going to be a long time until she‘s riding again, don‘t you think? 

TURNER:  If she ever rides again.  It‘s a tough injury to get over, psychologically in particular.  She will have fallen off the horse at pace, and to actually decide to get back on a horse is the hardest part, although they do say that you do have to get straight back on. 

It would have been impossible for Madonna to have done that at that time, but, as time wears on, the harder it will be for her to get back on the horse.  But I‘m sure she‘s a brave and gutsy lady, and she‘s certainly very fit.  And I think she will do it. 

COSBY:  I understand she went on a different horse, right, she used a different horse than she normally uses?  Could that have been the problem, and how risky is that? 

TURNER:  Well, I can only guess.  You know, I‘ve just—I know exactly what you‘ve read in the papers.  I don‘t know any more than the story, but we understand that it was a new horse.  And Madonna is certainly a reasonable rider.  She‘s a useful rider.

But I would have thought that, if the stories that the newspapers are saying are true, that it was a new horse on her estate that day, it would have been unwise to ride it so quickly, simply because a horse needs a couple of days to check its surroundings out in a big estate like that. 

And I have not been there, although some of my staff have been there.  You see, there are pheasants wandering around and there‘s all sorts of things going on.  And horses aren‘t sure about those things if they‘re not used to them.  So it would have taken a horse a couple of days to get used to its surroundings. 

COSBY:  And you talked about sort of that you sort of you need to get back up, and get over the hump, and get back on the horse.  Given you know about Madonna, spending some time with her, what kind of person is she?  Do you think we‘re going to see her back up real quick? 

TURNER:  Well, I must say that I have never taught Madonna. My staff have reported to me regarding her lessons.  But I would have thought she would.  I would have thought she was determined to. 

The big thing that she must do, as I mentioned earlier on, she‘s got to get on a horse in an arena situation.  She‘s got to get her confidence back in an enclosed space.  Sorry. 

COSBY:  Dickie, no, thank you very much.  We‘re unfortunately running out of time, but good advice.  And we appreciate it very much. 

And coming up, everybody, stick around.  We just got a little bit left of the show, the latest on the BTK Killer.  Who else wants to confront the cold-blooded sociopath in court?  That is coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  And that does it for me.  And coming up tomorrow in the BTK sentencing hearing, we‘re expected to hear the emotional statements from the victims‘ relatives on their loss and their pain.  We‘re going to be here. 

And we expect to hear from Dennis Rader himself.  I‘m going to be here once again LIVE & DIRECT to cover this chilling case.

And that does it again for me.  Be sure to stay tuned, everybody. 

“SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” starts right now—Joe?

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”:  Hey, thanks, Rita.  I‘ll tell you what:  That‘s going to be explosive tomorrow in the courtroom.  I can‘t wait to watch it to see what happens.  Looking forward to that show.

But tonight‘s top headline in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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