updated 8/19/2005 10:33:37 AM ET 2005-08-19T14:33:37

Guest: Beth Holloway Twitty; Jack Hickey; Charles “Choc” Harris; Dr. Keith Ablow; Amber Frey; Gloria Allred

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Boy, Rita, it was so emotional, and what—I‘m telling you, just an incredible show.  Thanks so much for bringing that to us. 

Tonight‘s top headline in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY:Natalee‘s mother, not giving up, for the first time, a tearful Beth Holloway sits down with our own investigator, and tells of her rising anger and her refusal to give up hope. 

Then, what happened to missing American groom George Smith, IV?  The couple who stayed in the cabin next door tells us how they were interrogated, and their shocking account may change the way we all think about this case. 

Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY no passport required, only common sense allowed. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

From the press room to the courtroom to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.   Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY it‘s great to have you with us tonight.  A stunning twist to our investigation into missing honeymooner George Smith, IV.  The couple who, last night, told us what they saw will now take us into the investigation.  Remember, this couple, next door to the honeymooners, wait until you hear what they have to say.  And what they say the cruise company tried to get them to say. 

But first, to Aruba and the search for Natalee.  Joran van der Sloot is just 17 days away, friends, from being able to walk out of jail free, or getting his jail sentence extended, but today, he escaped interrogation again.  With me live from Aruba with all of today‘s developments is NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski. 

Michelle, what do you got for us? 

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Hey, Joe, you‘re right, it‘s the 8th straight day that Joran van der Sloot has not been interrogated, and also in the search, it seems like the blink of an eye, you go from good news in the search for clues to bad news.  The one guy who‘s going to stick around and tackle that enormous landfill search project had to leave the country suddenly.  Now nobody is working on that and it‘s depressing to the family and searchers because it‘s widely considered to be one place on this island where there is good potential for finding some evidence.  Now, some searchers in the United States are working on gathering up a team and coming back next.  And when you look at the mystery of this case and the frustration of not finding anything, you do see that it draws people from all over with new technologies to come down here and try to search on their own.  We ran into a guy from Tennessee who‘s been here four days now, with his invention of two metal rods attached to batteries, kind of looks like people used to go dousing water.  Well, with these rods, he claims he spotted human remains a mile off the coast, and people are paying attention to him.  A private investigator who‘s been here for weeks is now working with him, and local divers now are now going to take a look at the area that he spotted over the weekend. 

The family does get some encouragement from time to time, though, and today a local artist painted a picture of Natalee, presented it to her mother in a ceremony, and that was one thing that made the family feel pretty good. 

Joe, back to you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thanks so much, NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski, greatly appreciate your report tonight, as we do every single night. 

Now, Natalee‘s mom, Beth, of course she arrived in Aruba just hours after she heard the tragic news that her daughter was missing, but since those first days, you know, this poor lady from Alabama has been so frustrated by the lack of urgency on the part of Aruban authorities.  Well, today she sat down with former FBI profiler and current MSNBC analyst, Clint van Zandt, who began by asking her if she feels any closer to finding out what really happened to Natalee. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE‘S MOTHER:  You know, some days I think that we may be hitting a wall, but, you know, I just—I can‘t give up. 

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FMR.  FBI PROFILER:  No. 

TWITTY:  And it‘s just—it‘s not time and, I mean, you know, until we do hit a wall, you know, we just have to keep going.  I mean, there‘s—she is not home. 

VAN ZANDT:  Beth, you‘ve had conversations with Natalee‘s friends, who were with her on the island, who were with her the night she disappeared. 

TWITTY:  Uh-huh. 

VAN ZANDT:  What do they tell you happened at this local night spot from the time that Natalee met Joran van der Sloot until the time she left with him? 

TWITTY:  Well, you know, even more important than that is what we know that Natalee would not do, and Natalee would not, she would not leave Carlos and Charlie‘s and climb into the back seat of a car with Joran van der Sloot, knowing that Deepak and Satish Kalpoe were two of his best friends and driving that vehicle.  I know that.  I know that for sure, that Natalee Holloway felt that she was getting in the back seat of an Aruban cab with an Aruban cab driver.  That‘s—to me that‘s important to establish that first.  Now, what preceded that, you know, I think it was very minimal, the details of that.  I mean, Joran did not come into the establishment until close to closing time.  I think this tends to be, you know, his behavior. 

VAN ZANDT:  Now, had Natalee ever met him before on the island prior to the night she went missing? 

TWITTY:  You know, Clint, if she had, it would have been in a brief hello, and he met numerous students that night.  Of course, he spent the majority of the time with one of her classmates at a Texas hold ‘em table.  Now, he had met some of the other girls, I think, in—for a greater length of time than Natalee, but if she did met him it was only in passing, “hi,” and then on to something else. 

VAN ZANDT:  Where were the chaperons?  I mean, why weren‘t they right there on top of these kids? 

TWITTY:  What was the authority‘s response when the chaperons were trying to seek help? 

The authorities did not respond, so I mean, you know, I am not even so sure what good it would have done, Clint.  We have not gotten anywhere since, and even with me arriving on the island as quickly as I did, I was not even able to get much of a sense of urgency reaction out of them.  No, I didn‘t get any urgency reaction out of them, so.

VAN ZANDT:  Let me ask you this.  Some people say you are too close to the case.  You are too close to the investigation, that you should back off and let the cops do their job.  How do you feel about that?

TWITTY:  Well, I wish we could, Clint.  I wish we could.  I would give anything to know that I could turn this over to the authorities and that they were carrying out a timely and competent and thorough and honest investigation, but we were not given that from the moment we‘ve arrived on the island, so we have not had that luxury, so how can we let—if we let it go now, we let it go in the beginning, and what happened?  It fell apart in front of us, so why would we back off now?  What frightens me if we did not have the support from everyone, in the U.S.—that it‘s just been incredibly supportive.  If we had not have the media. 

VAN ZANDT:  Let‘s talk about the media.  There are those small numbers who suggest this case gets way too much attention. 

TWITTY:  You know, Clint, I think that everyone can—well, I know that everyone can see themselves in my shoes because everyone could see themselves sending their loved one to a foreign country on their senior trip, and see it happening to them.  But you know, Clint, this has never been about, to me, about, just say—I feel that Natalee is no different than any other parent‘s child because I taught children with disabilities for 22 years, Clint. 

VAN ZANDT:  You got to ask yourself, have I done everything? 

TWITTY:  Yeah, but.

VAN ZANDT:  Have I done everything? 

TWITTY:  What bothers me, all the support I am getting, that I know I will spend the rest of my life doing something instrumental to too.  To think, because I am not used to being on this side, so.

VAN ZANDT:  Have you ever had a sit-down with the other mothers, with Joran van der Sloot‘s mother, with the Kalpoes‘ mother? 

TWITTY:  Not with the Kalpoes mother, but with Anita van der Sloot. 

VAN ZANDT:  With Anita, mother to mother. 

TWITTY:  Uh-huh. 

VAN ZANDT:  How do you feel in that meeting?  Did you feel she was working with you?

TWITTY:  You know, the only thing I could get from here was, you know, I realize parents will—you know are going to defend their children until the very end, and the main thing I did with her, Clint, is I just listened, and I just listened to her.  Probably—oh, it would to have been at least 45 minutes, on her just about Joran, and she just couldn‘t—she just couldn‘t quit saying, just enough, just glorious things about him, and just a mother, though, that when I was listening to her she‘s just in complete denial.  She has no—either she has no idea of Joran‘s, you know, behavior, or she‘s just - or she is—I don‘t know, Clint.  She‘s in complete denial.  I mean, this is a male that is gambling at casinos with an open line of credit?  He is at Carols and Charlie‘s with a VIP pass?  Is that what they give him?  I don‘t know.  I mean, he‘s been doing this for a long time.  He has got a well-known past.  This is a mother who has no idea who her son really is.

VAN ZANDT:  September 4 is closing in on us.

TWITTY:  Yeah. 

VAN ZANDT:  September 4 is the day Joran has another court appearance, and it‘s my understanding that the judge then will have to make a decision, is there enough new investigative information to hold him, or turn him loose.  Is that a pivotable date for you? 

TWITTY:  Oh, absolutely.  It‘s all I can think about, right now, September IV.  And September IV I think is a Sunday, so surely we will be finding something out either Friday or Thursday or Friday or the Monday, thereafter.  It‘s all that we can think about. 

VAN ZANDT:  Do you think about one way or the other, the results, if he is released, if he is held, what that means to you and what you are trying to do to bring Natalee home? 

TWITTY:  Huh-uh, no, I am not going to do it until I experience it.  I haven‘t—that‘s how I have done this whole investigation and this whole summer, and I am just going to wait and see what happens, and as soon as it happens, I will know exactly what to do. 

VAN ZANDT:  What‘s your ultimate goal in this entire matter? 

TWITTY:  To bring Natalee home.  That‘s all we want to do, Clint.  As soon as we can get here, we are out of here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCARBOROUGH:  Clint, obviously Beth was very emotional in that interview with you, crying at one point.  I got to ask you, how tough is it for you as an investigator, not only in this capacity, but as an investigator, for the FBI, to not get emotionally involved in cases like this? 

VAN ZANDT:  You cannot remove yourself, Joe.  I mean, I got to tell you, I got sucked into this as soon as I hit the ground.  I mean, as soon as you talk to Beth Holloway, as soon as you talk to other family members, I mean, you know, you and I have talked.  You‘re a parent, I‘m a parent, we have children.  You know that, you know, there but for the grace of God that‘s one of our kids, and when you see how hard this family is trying, doing everything they can.  You know, you look, Joe, we don‘t have a victim, she‘s gone.  We don‘t have a crime scene.  We don‘t have linking physical evidence.  It‘s like, you know, something from outer space came down and grabbed this girl off the surface of the planet and took her away, and yet Investigations 101 says, stay with the people she was last with.  Their stories have changed multiple times.  Do we have any other suspects?  That‘s where you have to stay, but, Joe, we are 80, 81 days into this, and the family do not have any more answers to what happened to their daughter than almost the day they hit this island. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Clint, the tough question, is this case ever going to get solved? 

VAN ZANDT:  You know, sitting there with Beth today, holding her hands, probably crying with her, I have cried with other parents who‘ve lost children, and, you know, it‘s an easy thing to do.  And I will not turn off that emotional porch light on her front door that says, Natalee, come home.  You know, I would never take that away from a parent.  I mean, we could have another Elizabeth Smart, we could have a runaway bride.  I mean, we can hope, we can pray for all of those.  You know, and sometimes statistics be darned, it‘s our kids, let‘s bring them home.  The reality, from an investigative standpoint is where‘s the hard evidence that says what happened to this girl?  I mean, I have a working theory.  Law enforcement has.  But, you know, theories are just that.  Theories don‘t convict anyone.  Hard evidence does, and unless they come forward with some hard evidence to show what happened to this girl, they may walk, the suspects. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Ok.  Such a tragedy.  Thanks so much, Clint.  We greatly appreciate it.  We‘ll be talking to you, obviously, tomorrow night also. 

Now, we have gotten a lot of questions about how Beth is able to spend so much time away from home, searching for Natalee.  Today she told us, it‘s thanks to the generosity of her fellow teachers in Alabama.  They have donated their sick days so Beth can stay in Aruba longer, fighting to bring her daughter home. 

Beth expressed how overwhelmed she is by all of her fellow teachers‘ acts of kindness, and I know she greatly appreciates it, as do we.  Such a tough time for you her.  Again, friends, you have to remember, right now, all of Natalee‘s friends are going off to the University of Alabama, the University of auburn, such an exciting time in a young girl‘s life, such an exciting time in the life of parents.  It‘s a time they can say, “You know what, mission accomplished.  We got them through high school.  And now they begin an exciting voyage,” and yet tonight, Beth Holloway Twitty, far away from Alabama, down in Aruba, still trying to get answers to the questions that she just doesn‘t have. 

Coming up next, a new twist in our investigation to what happened to missing honeymooner George Smith, IV.  Next, exclusive new evidence that the cruise company may have botched this case from the start and asked leading questions and slandered these people. 

And later, was Scott Peterson born to kill?  Former mistress, Amber Frey is here, with some surprising new insights.  A big night and we are just getting started in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Exclusive, they stayed next door to missing honeymooner, George Smith.  They told us what they heard that night, but wait until you hear what this couple says the cruise company told them, and how they may have slandered a dead man. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Tonight we have another exclusive in the case of missing honeymooner, George Smith, IV.  The couple was in the cabin—the couple was in the cabin next door to the Smiths.  Last night, told us what they heard, but tonight, tell us what happened hours after the American groom disappeared and what happened in the minutes after they noticed something was terribly wrong.  Take a listen. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GREG:  Well, we woke up early, as I mentioned earlier, we woke up fairly early to get onto a bus tour, day tour.  So we had no inkling anything was wrong, seriously wrong until we got back to the ship about 5:30 that same day, so we did our complete tour there in Kusadasi in Turkey, came back and put our card into the card reader, and then the gong went off, some bills went of, and we had to be shuttled aside, and they said, well, surety wants to see you.  So we saw security, two guys there, at the ship.  We just went to a common area there and had a chat with them, and that was the first time we really found out that somebody was missing and that there might have been something a lot more serious than was originally anticipated.

PAT:  Yes, we went.

SCARBOROUGH:  Did you pick up any thing from them?

PAT:  We were.

GREG:  Well no, we did, because they said there was a fellow on board there, which was a newlywed, 26 years old.  My wife took it fairly hard at that point in time because we have a 26-year-old son, he‘s my younger son, and it hits a little bit close to home, but, you know, that was the first time we found out, by them telling us, that there was, in fact, somebody missing, and then some of the other information that applied. 

PAT:  Well, the only thing that I thought when we left the interview, of course I was very upset when I found out what had happened.  They went on in detail, telling us about the drinking of the two parties that were involved, and the partying and that they had been with young people and they had been drinking the whole trip, and the only thing I said to my husband when I left the interview was, in fact, I asked them if what we told them would make sense, and they said, “yes, the man‘s name was George, and a lot of what you have said is correlating with what other people have told us.”  But the part that bothered me when we got back to the room was it seemed to me that they were asking us together, which I always thought you separated people when you asked them things, and also, the fact that they were telling us so many bad things about the young couple.  And I really didn‘t feel comfortable with that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  What bad things were they telling you about George and Jen? 

PAT:  Well, they told us, in fact, everything that we have been hearing on your show, which is why we‘ve never come forward, we thought there would been enough salacious things said about the couple, but they had been talking about the fact that they‘d been drinking, and they said that they had been drinking every night and that they had been buying drinks for young teenagers, and that the girl had been walking on the railing one night, and just all sorts of things. 

To be quite honest, maybe it was to make me feel, in a way, calmed down because I took it so hard when they, you know, told me the story originally, but I still felt that it wasn‘t something that should be done.  And we always wondered if someone else was going to talk to us, and when the attorney talked to us in Florida—the attorney from Florida, talked to us when we were in Naples, the day before we disembarked, he did basically the same thing.  They kind of fed us information as they were asking us information. 

For instance, asking, “Were the foreign voices Russian?”  rather than just asking me, what did the voices sound like, they actually told me that.  And then they asked me at one point if I had seen anybody being taken back to their room in a wheelchair.  And I said, “of course not.  We were in bed.”  And they intimated that the girl had been so drunk that she had been taken back to her room in a wheelchair.  Again, from my standpoint, although this was a fabulous cruise, I will say it was a fabulous cruise, I did not think that was handled very professionally because I don‘t think you malign the people that are either being investigated or the person that might have been died. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It seems to me that Royal Caribbean had a story that they wanted to tell, and instead of conducting an investigation, it sounds like they were leading you to destination, where they wanted to take you, and what happened to George Smith.  Is that—is that—was that basically your impression? 

PAT:  Well, to be quite honest, I‘m sort of naive along this thing.  I haven‘t been in too many investigations, but in retrospect, now that I can see everything that‘s happening; I might say that that possibly could be true.  They did ask us questions, but at every question, they also fed me some information, and they did take down what I said.  I foolishly did not ask for a copy of the report, so what they took down from each of us or both of us together, I actually have no idea what‘s in that transcript, or in the deposition. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And.

PAT:  From either the (INAUDIBLE) or the attorney. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And Greg, I trust that they also fed you information, asked you leading questions? 

GREG:  Well, yeah, we were at the same interview.  Again, as my wife indicated, they didn‘t separate us to get sort of correlating stories.  They interviewed us sitting down together, at one time, and so I heard the same things that my wife did, and, yeah, I would agree that there‘s a little too much information fed from the interviewer.  Generally all they want is the facts, and they don‘t want any hearsay or any real conclusions, all they want is the facts, and that really didn‘t occur in this particular case. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Let me ask you all one final question, if that‘s OK.  While you were going through these questions, did they ever tell you that they believed that George Smith was dead? 

GREG:  Well, yeah, the security personnel, when we first came back to the ship, again, we saw the Royal Caribbean on-board security personnel first, and they said it appeared to them like this is an overboard situation and the guy is gone.  They—that‘s what they told us.  That‘s the first time we heard that, in fact. 

PAT:  And no intimation that anything that had been done to him, basically it was that he had done it himself. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And that appears to still be their story, more than a month and a half later.  Greg and Pat, thanks so much for being with us.  We really, really do appreciate it. 

PAT:  You‘re welcome. 

GREG:  Thank you so much. 

PAT:  I hope you get to the bottom of it. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCARBOROUGH:  And I‘ll tell you what, we are going to try to get to the bottom of it.  I got to tell you, you look at that information we just got from the couple.  They were asked by the so-called investigators leading questions, they were given a hearsay evidence, and they are saying that this guy‘s dead, and implying, as they said, that he killed himself.  Of course, that‘s the same thing they said to poor Jen Smith just hours after he disappeared.  Unbelievable how this cruise line was conducting this investigation on the ship and back in Miami. 

Now, coming up next, our experts are going to tell us why they think the cruise line could keep us from ever knowing what really happened to George Smith, IV. 

And then, Amber Frey, Scott Peterson‘s former girlfriend will be live in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to address the explosive claims in a new book.  Stay with us, that‘s coming next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  An explosive new book called “Scott Peterson, a Perfect Storm Who was Born to Kill.”  We‘re going to be talking to his former girlfriend, Amber Frey, and ask her what clues she saw in Peterson‘s dark nature.

But first, the latest news you and your family need to know. 

(NEWSBREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  When Amber Frey met Scott Peterson; he seemed like the perfect guy.  He wasn‘t.  He was far from it, and one new book says he was a sociopath and a killer.  New terrifying information you haven‘t heard.  We‘re going to get Amber Frey‘s reaction live. 

Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY that story in just minutes, but first, back to our investigation in the missing honeymooner, George Smith, IV. 

In the hours and days after Smith‘s disappearance from the ship, did the cruise ship handle the investigation correctly?  There are a lot of unanswered questions, and to help us now answer some of those questions about the case, we‘ve got maritime attorney, Jack Hickey; former security chief of Carnival Cruise Lines, Choc Harris; and from our NBC station in Connecticut, helping us out with the family angle, WVIT reporter, Lisa Salvati. 

Let me begin with you, Jack Hickey.  You heard the explosive new information we just played in our last block, this couple, next door to the honeymooners, who—star-crossed honeymooners, unfortunately, and they are sitting there the next day, this guy may be dead, the wife obviously grieving, and yet these investigators are passing on hearsay evidence.  They are passing on rumors and gossip about this guy, saying that he was a drunk, his wife was a drunk, they were feeding drinks to young kids.  The wife was acting out of control.  And said, hey, the guy basically killed himself.  Is this how you conduct, first of all, a professional investigation, and secondly, is this how the cruise lines usually conduct their investigations?

JACK HICKEY, MARITIME ATTORNEY:  Well, to answer the first question, Joe, and thank you, it‘s not how you conduct a professional investigation.  They have exhibited a tendency, right from the get-go in this investigation, and SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY has uncovered this, that they want to steer this investigation.  They‘re asking these leading questions when obviously they should be getting to the bottom of this, but they want to do what lawyers try to do, quite frankly, sometimes, and that‘s taint the witness or get the witness on your side.  They‘re not supposed to be doing that at that juncture, at that juncture, they should have been finding out or trying to find out the truth.  But they obviously did not want to do that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey Jack, let me interrupt you for just one second.  This is, again, just hours after the disappearance, after the bloody discovery, and what they are trying to do, obviously we heard evidence last night also, this couple told us last night that they saw crew members hovering around the door at about the same time that they heard a sickening thud, which many people believe was George Smith falling to his death or being propelled to his death, thrown to his death, and yet they are trying possibly, could it be, to take attention off the crew members, by talking about the Russians, who were in the room hours before. 

HICKEY:  Or crew members in the room, because there are reports from Clete Hyman, who came out on your show, in fact, and who said that there were male voices arguing on the balcony.  Now we have from your show, I believe last night and night before, the two crew members who are outside the door, who, by the way, do fit the description, I believe, of security personnel onboard the cruise ship.  Security personnel onboard the cruise ship quite commonly are in the white uniforms, they usually do not have the paraphernalia of police officers and they are usually, they‘re just not that large.  They don‘t have bouncer type individuals around.  So that fits the description. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Let me bring in Choc Harris right now.  Choc, also used to work for a cruise line as an investigator.  Choc, I‘m very surprised that this guy, if he died, just died hours earlier, and it seems like these investigators, so-called investigators are intent on slandering his reputation to lead these people to a conclusion.  Is that how it‘s usually done in these cruise line investigations? 

CHARLES “CHOC” HARRIS, FMR. CHIEF SEC.  OFFICER, CARNIVAL CRUISES: 

Well, history shows that it is this, they are trying to gather their army together, protect the cruise line, protect the cruise line, and whatever they can do.  You know, with this possibility of cruise men, most of the cases that I have been involved with, it is not passenger on passenger injury, it‘s crew members on passengers.  And this here is with what they have said, you know, security has been there, security has a history, there‘s possibly a wheelchair.  The only way a check could be brought to that room was if security or hospital people had authorized it, so security would have known about all of this... 

SCARBOROUGH:  And Choc, explain to us, if you can, why it would be in the cruise line‘s best interest to get attention away from the crew members that were hovering around outside the door at the time that he fell, instead of the—get it off of them and focus it on these two Russians and the California boy?

HARRIS:  Possibility of liability, the involvement, the actual injury of a crew member coming after a passenger.  You know, they‘re trying to focus it somewhere else, where they‘re not being libel or possibly sued, the negative publicity that this brings to a cruise line.

SCARBOROUGH:  Lisa Salvati, obviously you have been covering the family up in Connecticut.  We get emails everyday from people thanking us for continuing this investigation, and keeping it moving forward, but I got to tell you, if I—if one of my loved ones or one of my children had died this way, or their spouse had died this way, I‘d be heart-broken by the fact that you have the cruise line trying to lead these witnesses down the path.  This whole situation has to be so difficult for the families.  Talk about your brush with the families and the friends up there in Connecticut. 

LISA SALVATI, WVIT-TV CORRESPONDENT:  Well, Joe, yesterday, as I said on your program last night, I did visit with Debbie Hagel, Jennifer‘s mom, and clearly, I mean, the look of pain on this woman‘s face was so severe, very much distraught.  I asked her how her daughter was doing.  All she would say was, “I can‘t talk to you,” in a very, very shaky voice.  Very gracious, though, I must tell you, a very gracious woman, considering what she‘s been through, what her daughter is going through, and as I said, it was almost equivalent to parents who I‘ve interviewed in the past who have lost children.  I mean, clearly this woman, if you think about it, has lost a part of her daughter that will never come back.  Her daughter will never be the same after this.  And it was very much apparent on her face. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s awful.  Let me ask you, finally, you talked to a friend of the family also.  You‘ve been up there for some time, obviously talking.  What are the friends saying? 

SALVATI:  Well, this one young man is a very close friend of the Hagels.  He also was very close to Jennifer and George, and hung out with them, prior to the wedding, was at the wedding, he said the wedding was wonderful.  And he just—he wanted to convey the fact that Jennifer was a wonderful—is a wonderful, wonderful person, a very warm and loving young lady.  When she was with George, the couple, he couldn‘t go on enough about saying how loving that they were.  They were a very, very loving couple, who were looking forward to their life together.  George, he said, who he also was friends with, a very in control guy.  This guy was very focused.  He knew what he wanted in life.  He was getting what he wanted in life.  He was very happy with his work, with his new wife.  I mean, there was no dissension with this couple at all when he was hanging around them. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s such a tragedy, Lisa.  Lisa, thanks.  Choc, Jack Hickey, appreciate as always appreciate you being here. 

HICKEY:  Thank you.

SCARBOROUGH:  Friends, and I just got to say this, this is such a human tragedy for both families involved in this.  There‘s a part of me every night that hates coming on here and recounting this and telling this story.  Unfortunately, we don‘t think the investigators are doing their job.  As soon as the truth‘s known about George Smith, IV, we are going to stop talking about this story, but until that time, I just ask all of you, keep these two families, keep their loved ones, keep their friends in your prayers.  Everything I‘ve heard about both of these—I almost said kids, but they are very young people, are that they‘re just wonderful people caught up in a very, very difficult situation. 

Coming up next, two people who have been inside the mind of Scott Peterson.  Talk about a tragedy.  Give us some scary insights into how Peterson was destined to kill his wife and unborn child.  And we are going to be asking his ex-girlfriend, Amber Frey, if she saw any signs that she was dating a murder.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, so many people ask the question, what kind of man could kill his own wife and unborn son?  Well, in the new book, “Inside the Mind of Scott Peterson,” Dr. Keith Ablow paints a picture of a monster, born to kill.  Earlier tonight, I spoke with Dr. Ablow, and “Court TV” anchor author Catherine Crier, she‘s the author of  “A Deadly Game,” and I asked them both what‘s inside Peterson‘s mind. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. KEITH ABLOW, AUTHOR:  There‘s really nothing there.  Scott Peterson was long gone.  It‘s like Charles Manson said in the courtroom, you can‘t kill me I‘m already dead.  Well, Scott Peterson, in order to live, I believe, with Lee and Jackie Peterson as his parents, had to essentially suffocate himself emotionally.  He becomes a person imitating a person, and that‘s why some of people who meet him think of him as, well, kind of perfect, but too perfect. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Catherine, what about, I guess the next question off of that is, what about Laci Peterson?  Here seems to be a beautiful young woman, who‘s just the opposite.  Everybody that knew Laci said she was full of life, vivacious, and just the opposite of the description we just heard for Scott.  How does somebody like that get rolled into a relationship with Scott Peterson? 

CATHERINE CRIER, “COURT TV”:  Well, remember what Keith just said.  That he was able to sort of manifest the personality of being the perfect guy.  We saw him with Amber.  Keith was able to talk to other old girlfriends.  You know, he showed up to one‘s house, with a dozen, dozen roses, you know, can you imagine, in a big tub.  He was wining and dining, and taking them, and pulling the chair out, and the perfect gentleman.  She probably thought she had encountered the perfect guy, and that‘s because basically he would manipulate other people by becoming what they wanted most, then they would give back to him, but I think Laci was probably a bit more personality than he ever counted on. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Catherine, obviously, you, like the doctor, wrote a great book on Scott Peterson.  People are still fascinated with Scott and Laci Peterson, and the big question, you need to educate me, because I am the idiot here, why?

CRIER:  Well, it‘s a very good question, but I think this particular couple, the perfect couple, everything looked so glorious for them.  This was the guy next door.  There‘s nothing about their circumstance that would have let anyone figure that this sort of thing was going to happen.  The parents on both sides, when she went missing, absolutely not, Scott could not be involved in this.  And of course, there are people still convinced today that he is absolutely innocent.  So it is one of those cases that continues for many to be a mystery, and could never have been anticipated, and actually strikes terror probably into the hearts of people when they think can I really read those close to me in my life. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Catherine, from your reporting for “Court TV,” and the special you did last week, what details can you give us about Scott‘s life on death row? 

CRIER:  Very interesting.  One of the wardens has said he has given himself a name.  I don‘t know that this is true, I am just reporting.  Scott too—“Scottie too Hotty,” (INAUDIBLE).  And there‘s actually a wrestler by that name who‘s not very happy.  But, apparently he has adapted quite well, and I‘d like to toss that to Keith because it‘s quite interesting thinking about how in the world does someone adapt to life on death row?

ABLOW:  Well, after all, we are talking about a human chameleon, right?  There‘s no internal self, and so it‘s easy for him to adopt a variety of roles.  He tells Ann Bird, his half sister, when she is in tears, because she has feelings for him still, she says, you‘re going to be in San Quentin the rest of your life, and he says, “Look, sis, it could be worse.  It‘s a historic building.  After all, how many people get to live in a landmark?” 

SCARBOROUGH:  Oh, my god. 

CRIER:  Scary, isn‘t it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Keep on the sunny side, I guess. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCARBOROUGH:  Catherine Crier, Dr. Keith Ablow, thanks so much for being with us.  And of course, Catherine Crier‘s documentary, “A Deadly Game” airs on “Court TV,” and you can see that September 19. 

Now, Amber Frey helped police build their case against Scott Peterson, and she‘s here in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, tonight.  She‘s also the author of “Witness, for the Prosecution of Scott Peterson.”  Also here tonight, her attorney, Gloria Allred. 

Let me start with you, Amber.  Ask you a quick question before we go to break.  You‘ve heard Scott described as a “man born to kill,” there‘s nothing there.  Does that sound like the Scott Peterson that you knew? 

AMBER FREY, SCOTT PETERSON‘S FMR. GIRLFRIEND:  No, I think there was - I couldn‘t say so, but definitely I would agree with him being a chameleon and adapting to his surroundings, so I don‘t know, I guess yes and no. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Tell me how he was a chameleon in your case. 

FREY:  Well, it just seemed like he adapted to like what I knew he—there was—I‘m sorry. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Oh, you have feedback?  OK, Gloria. 

FREY:  I apologize. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Let me ask you—no, don‘t apologize.  That‘s our fault.  Gloria, let me ask you about these charges, here.  You know, this guy comes across as a perfect guy.  Yet he‘s a—he‘s a killer.  Is this a familiar story in the type of work that you do? 

GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY:  Unfortunately, it is.  And I am involved in a case right now, involving the death of a woman by the father of her child, and it‘s another one of those situations where she thought he was prince charming, he wined her and dined her, and she ends up dead on the floor of his apartment.  And he‘s now going to be facing charges next month in Italy.  Having said that, you know, we do have to be cautious about the people with whom we‘re having relationships.  I always say, treat it as though—as we did with the old Soviet Union, trust, but verify.  You know.

SCARBOROUGH:  Exactly. 

ALLRED:  We‘re not psychiatrists, but we do have to be careful in our relationships. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Got to be so careful.  Gloria, stay with us.  Amber, we‘re going to fix your earpiece.  Sorry about that.  And we are going to be right back. 

I am going to ask Amber Frey what her take is on the charge that Scott Peterson, her former boyfriend, was born to kill.  We‘ll be back with that and a lot more when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Scott Peterson, inside the mind of a killer.  Now, let‘s bring back in Amber Frey and Gloria Allred.  Amber, you heard the charge: 

Sociopath killer, I asked you before, when we messed up your earpiece.  Now that you can hear us, respond.  Did Scott Peterson ever give you any clue at all that this guy could be a sociopath killer? 

FREY:  Not at all, no. 

SCARBOROUGH:  When was the first time.

FREY:  No, he was very—he was very sincere.

SCARBOROUGH:  .you knew something was wrong?  Oh, was he? 

FREY:  He came across very sincere, very genuine, very down to earth.  What I was trying to say about being a chameleon, like, Laci‘s favorite store was Trader Joe‘s, and I introduced him to Whole Foods and so that was his new favorite store, I mean, that‘s where he went, or we went several times together, had lunch, bought groceries, so he just seemed to kind of adapt to his surroundings.  I definitely would agree with that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So he is a master manipulator just like the doctor said? 

FREY:  I would agree with that, yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, you testified a year ago about Scott Peterson.  Obviously the whole world‘s attention was brought on you, obviously attention that you didn‘t want, and certainly under tragic circumstances.  How have you adapted a year later?  Is there any way you can go back to having a normal life?  Are you going always be associated with Scott and Laci Peterson? 

FREY:  Well, I think—I feel, fortunately, I‘ve been able to you know, stand on my own two feet and kind of, you know, make some changes in my own life.  I don‘t think things will ever be the same for me in the fact that I have been associated with you know, Scott Peterson and this trial, or—so—but I feel that—I feel fortunate enough that I have been able to, I guess, stand on my own. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Do you still.

ALLRED:  May I say, too, that I am very proud of her, because beside the book, beside the movie, that she has begun a speaking tour, so she‘s just has given two speeches, and I expect that there are going to be other invitations in the future, and I think she‘s been a real inspiration to other women and men to whom she‘s spoken about how she has made stumbling blocks into stepping stones. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yeah, I‘ll tell you what, it‘s a remarkable story.  Let me ask you, Amber, is there any part of you that is still worried about this guy, that still hopes he is doing all right in prison, or have you been able to completely shut that door emotionally? 

FREY:  I believe I have been able to shut that door emotionally.  You know, I‘m asked about him, you know, from time to time, and I think I have removed my emotions from that long ago, so.

SCARBOROUGH:  Yeah.  Gloria, again, we heard the doctor talk about sociopath killers.  What are some of the warning signs? 

ALLRED:  Well, sometimes you can‘t know, but I think that it‘s the old if it seems to be too good to be true, he probably is not true, is what I would say, and, you know, I think, of course, when he was talking to Amber and telling her that he thought the best movie ever was the “Shining,” in which Jack Nicholson portrayed the character who tries to kill his wife and son, you know, that was a tip-off, but that was, of course, after she was taping phone calls for the police.  And I just think that this is a person who seemed to be talking from the script, seemed to be giving lines, but I don‘t think there‘s any way that Amber could have known that in advance. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Absolutely not.  Hey, thanks so much, Amber Frey and Gloria Allred. 

FREY:  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  We appreciate it. 

Amber, best of luck, our thoughts and wishes are with you, with the book, the movie, and obviously the speaking tour, also. 

Coming up, much more in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY stay with us, we‘ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  If you were on the cruise with missing honeymooner George Smith and Jen Smith, or if you have information you want to share, send us an e-mail at joe@msnbc.com to help in our investigation to crack this case.  We‘ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Tomorrow night, a remarkable interview with Dr. Laura, I mean remarkable, you‘re not going want to miss it.  What‘s her biggest regret?  She‘ll tell you tomorrow, it has to do with God. 

The “Situation” with Tucker Carlson starts right now .Filling in tonight, the great Allison Stewart.  Allison, what‘s the situation tonight.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END   

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