updated 8/23/2005 10:22:35 AM ET 2005-08-23T14:22:35

Guest: Charles Stone, Peter Davenport, Max Kellerman

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Now stay tuned for my good friend and the man that‘s credited with ending genocide in Bosnia, Tucker Carlson.  THE SITUATION starts right now. 

Tucker, what time is it, baby?

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST:  It was a tough job, Joe, but someone had to do it.  You know, I‘m glad you asked that, Joe.  It‘s 11 p.m. in Washington, D.C.  It‘s 9 p.m. in Salt Lake City, 7 a.m. in Baghdad.  We are live with the latest news from around the world. 

That includes violence over high gas prices, one famous university‘s attack on low beer prices, and another famous university‘s class in hamburgers.  Plus, we‘ve got UFO sightings and the missing boyfriend of a famous singer. 

But first, here to break down the top stories in our run down, the host of MSNBC‘s “CONNECTED COAST TO COAST,” the great, the versatile Monica Crowley. 

MONICA CROWLEY, HOST, “CONNECTED COAST TO COAST”:  How are you, Tucker?

CARLSON:  I‘m great, Monica.  Thanks a lot for filling in last week. 

I really appreciate it. 

CROWLEY:  My pleasure.  I had a great time.

CARLSON:  I didn‘t see the show, but... 

CROWLEY:  Welcome back.  Hope you had a nice vacation. 

CARLSON:  Fantastic.

Well, it‘s tough to call the Iraqi government situation a success or even hopeful.  Today‘s deadline for a new constitution came and went without a vote, amid feuding between Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds. 

What is clear is that the constitution will almost certainly enshrine Islamic law as the foundation of the country‘s judicial system and ensure no law passed in the country violates the, quote, “fixed principles of the rules of Islam.” 

So this, Monica, is why our men and women are dying in Iraq, so Iraq can become an Islamic state?  I‘m missing something.

CROWLEY:  Not quite, no, because the assumption when you put it out there, it‘s becoming enshrined in the constitution, that they‘re going to have to conform to Islamic law.  That‘s not exactly what‘s happening here. 

There was debate between the Shias, who wanted Sharia law.  They wanted that to be fundamental basis for the Iraq government.  And the secular Kurds, and the Sunnis, who have sort of exited this process, or are sort of a part of it.  Now they may be excluded altogether if they don‘t step up to the plate by October 15.

But the secularists and the fundamentalists almost came to blows in this entire process, so they decided that rather than say that Sharia would be the source of law.  They‘re saying it will be a source of law. 

CARLSON:  But the constitution will—I mean, it doesn‘t yet exist, but apparently it will say that no law passed can contradict Islamic law or tradition. 

CROWLEY:  But they‘re talking about particular areas of law. 

CARLSON:  OK, but...

CROWLEY:  They‘re not talking about criminal.  They‘re talking about domestic law. 

CARLSON:  It‘s only family law.  Exactly.  And that is the problem.  So we have almost 2,000 Americans dead in Iraq to bring freedom to the Iraqis, but this constitution will not guarantee minority rights or the rights of women, apparently.  It‘s a failure. 

CROWLEY:  No.  Tucker, your assumption is that we‘re essentially going to see Iran light in Iraq, and that‘s not what‘s happening.  You are not going to see a full-blown theocracy. 

CARLSON:  Why should we even see a part-blown theocracy?  I mean, isn‘t the point that we are creating this new model society in the Middle East, which is emancipated from these traditions which, frankly, are not freedom loving traditions? In the sense, you know, enslaving half the population, women.  Why aren‘t we creating a new Iraq, modeled on western tradition?

CROWLEY:  You‘re going to have blend between secular government and religious government in Iraq, not—it‘s not quite as secular as Turkey, which should have been a role model for Iraq.

CARLSON:  Yes.

CROWLEY:  After all, it was a secular state, but Turkey, you‘ve 99.9 percent of the population Muslim, and there is a heavy influence of Islamic rule in Turkey. 

Does it come into the government law, Iraq is sort of middle of the way, and they are still trying to find their way, and they have quite a while to figure this out. 

CARLSON:  We‘ve had a lot of people die, and I hope that the Christians in Iraq—and there are many Christians in Iraq... 

CROWLEY:  They‘re not heading toward a theocracy. 

CARLSON:  Have their rights protected.  I hope not.  I hope you‘re right. 

Republican senator and Vietnam veteran, Hagel compared the Iraq war to Vietnam in an unfavorable tone on Sunday.  Against that backdrop, President Bush traveled to Salt Lake City this afternoon to rally support for the war before Veterans of Foreign Wars.  His speech was most remarkable for this. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  We‘ve lost 1,864 members of our armed forces in Operation Iraqi Freedom, and 223 in Operation Enduring Freedom.  Each of these men and women left grieving families and loved ones back home.  We owe them something.  We will finish the task that they gave their lives for.  We will honor their sacrifice by staying on the offensive against the terrorists. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Now, Chuck Hagel, and I am glad the president addressed that directly and acknowledged how many men and women have been killed in Iraq, but Chuck Hagel said something very clear, and I think something very hard to argue with.  It‘s time to start figuring out now how to leave Iraq.  Our presence has destabilized the Middle East. 

I don‘t think there‘s any arguing with that.  I‘ll bet you $20 you will see people trying to paint Chuck Hagel as a liberal.  And he‘s not a liberal.  He‘s actually a conservative, a serious conservative.  He‘s not a McCain conservative.  He‘s a real conservative.  You have to take seriously what he said. 

CROWLEY:  Well, his comparison, though, to Vietnam was so over the top and inaccurate, Tucker. 

In the Vietnam War, we were dealing with a state-based enemy that was backed by two super powers, China and the Soviet Union.  Here we‘re dealing with a guerrilla terrorist insurgency. 

CARLSON:  Yes.

CROWLEY:  Two completely separate cases, and also, this idea about the United States military extricating itself, Vietnam, versus Iraq.  Back in the Vietnam War, they were all draftees, so the complaints about sending young men into battle in Vietnam, that held a different kind of weight. 

CARLSON:  Sure.  It‘s an imprecise analogy. 

CROWLEY:  Well, I mean, yes.  But also—it is also undermining what our military is trying to do in Iraq. 

CARLSON:  Really?  Really, because—hold on.  You have got—slow down.  Slow down.

CROWLEY:  Hang on, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  You‘ve got less than 50 percent of the public supports this war.  That‘s not Chuck Hagel‘s fault.  Whose fault is that?

CROWLEY:  When you talk to the U.S. military, these men and women on the ground in Iraq, they‘re saying, “You‘ve got to give us time.  Yes, we‘re up against some hard odds, but two-thirds of Iraq is under control.  It‘s stable; it‘s peaceful. 

We‘ve got the Sunni Triangle.  We‘re trying to get it under control.  Look, from the time of liberation, the deposition of Saddam Hussein, to point we are today, it‘s only been two years, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  None of—not one—none of that matters. 

CROWLEY:  ... instant gratification, you cannot expect a democracy to take hold overnight. 

CARLSON:  OK.  OK.  I don‘t think there‘s any question you‘re right on that one specific point.  However, the larger point that I think Senator Hagel was making is this.  You can‘t fight a war in a democracy, our democracy, without popular support, period.  You can‘t do it.  That is a lesson of Vietnam. 

CROWLEY:  That‘s true. 

CARLSON:  This does not have popular support.  It‘s incumbent on the administration to drum up that support, and they failed.  And that is a big deal.  It‘s a looming disaster at this point. 

CROWLEY:  Well, I wouldn‘t say there‘s no domestic support, but I will acknowledge that the domestic support is slipping.  It is up to the commander-in-chief, and I‘m glad to see President Bush out there today, but it can‘t just be one speech that he makes or sending out the vice president as he did a couple of days ago. 

This has to be the commander-in-chief every single day, making the case for why we‘re there, making the case for all the progress we are making.  He can‘t be sending out his proxies and his surrogates to do it.  He is the commander-in-chief.  He‘s got growing opposition, and he‘s got to be able to handle it because there is a positive story to tell about Iraq. 

CARLSON:  Yes.  Well, he said two years, a lot of conservatives, and a lot of conservatives—real conservatives, not pretend conservatives, like me, real conservatives are wondering, you know, what the hell are we doing there?  Still don‘t know. 

Well, it‘s hard to know why no one has said it yet, we are going to say it.  We have a gas crisis in this country.  Government reporters say that the average price for a gallon of gas, now $2.61.  That‘s up 6 cents from just last week. 

In Alabama, a gas station owner was killed when he was run over trying to stop a customer from driving away without paying a $52 tab.  The driver is still being sought at this hour. 

This is a big deal.  Now, I‘m a little sensitive to this, having just driven back from Maine yesterday and spent hundred bucks to fill up the car, but gas prices are really, really high.  And it‘s not just supply and demand issue, actually, because and I‘m sorry to sound like a left winner, but this is true. 

Profits of the oil companies are up dramatically over last year.  So I don‘t think the government should step in and set the price of oil.  However, you have got to sort of wonder, why is this happening?  Why is gas really expensive?

CROWLEY:  Well, we at least have a national energy policy.  I don‘t

think it‘s totally adequate.  It was signed into law a couple of weeks ago

by the president. 

CARLSON:  Apparently not. 

CROWLEY:  But the bottom line here, and I don‘t understand why conservatives and liberals don‘t get on the same page on this.  Perhaps for different reasons, but I don‘t care what brings them together on this. 

Maybe the liberals are concerned about environmental issues.  Maybe conservatives are concerned about the national security angle, but the bottom line is that everybody in this country should be interested in weaning ourselves of Middle East oil, because most of those regimes are out and out hostile to the United States.  We‘ve got to move ourselves off of that. 

You know, this whole argument about—from the left, for the last two years since we went into Iraq was, “Oh, well, you know, the president did it for oil.  He did it for Halliburton.”  Well, now you‘ve got $60 a barrel oil, so, so much for that argument. 

CARLSON:  Well, actually war for oil is not entirely bad idea. 

Imagine civilization without oil for 20 minutes. 

CROWLEY:  Well, that‘s right.  And it‘s not just the United States that are dependent.  It‘s all of our allies: in Western Europe and Japan, which has no independent oil reserves whatsoever. 

So the United States should lead the charge on that.  But the bottom line is, liberals and conservatives ought to get their acts together, come together.  I don‘t care their motivations are.  And force the administration, force this country to start weaning ourselves off of oil. 

CARLSON:  Right.  No one who lives in California should be allowed to fly in any private jet from now on.  I think that‘s a first step.

Well, on to a different kind of price crisis.  Perhaps less serious, but it could be argued also about fuel.  It‘s about beer.  Fuels a lot of mischief, and unfortunately, occasionally serious harm on college campuses. 

Now at least one school, the University of Florida, is working with bar owners and beer distributors to curb cheap beer specials at local bars, hoping to slow down binge drinking among the undergraduates. 

This is probably the dumbest thing I‘ve heard in a long time, because price is not what drives beer drinking on campuses.  They don‘t drink a lot of beer because it‘s cheap.  They drink a lot of beer because they have a lot of free time.  Because colleges aren‘t that challenging. 

CROWLEY:  I like the “Louie, Louie.” 

CARLSON:  But that is totally true.  Look, the reason people with jobs don‘t sit around getting hammered all day is because they have other things to do. 

The truth is that college is actually a huge waste of time for a lot of people.  They have a lot of time. 

CROWLEY:  They should be studying. 

CARLSON:  That‘s what I did.  I still—I don‘t know. 

CROWLEY:  Yes, well. 

CARLSON:  Stayed there a long time. 

CROWLEY:  Wine out of a box, is what I used to see, not that I ever did that, but wine out of a box, like $3 for, you know, 25 gallons of wine. 

Keg beer, it‘s easily accessible.  You don‘t see a lot of college kids drinking Dom Perignon.  What I want to know is why do we need a Harvard study to determine that college kids were drinking, you know, cheap beer and getting drunk? 

CARLSON:  Well, that‘s true?

CROWLEY:  All you have to do is wander onto any campus and see... 

CARLSON:  Can we tell the truth about college?  Look, is it a good thing?  I mean, I wish I hadn‘t gone myself, so obviously I‘m grinding an ax here.  I think it was a waste of time in my case.

But can we tell the truth about college?  And that is a lot of people shouldn‘t go to college.  I shouldn‘t have gone to college.  They should go right into the work force.  Seriously.  It‘s too much idle time.  It‘s too much of a joke.  People are too cynical about college.  Sitting around learning, you know, post-modern feminist theory is huge time waster. 

CROWLEY:  College isn‘t for everybody. 

CARLSON:  No, it‘s not. 

CROWLEY:  You know, it‘s not.  And people shouldn‘t be forced to go if they don‘t think that they want to, you know, go to graduate school or pursue some sort of professional career.  If they want to do something else, great, more power to them. 

But I mean, look, college is also about socialization.  It‘s about, you know, academic growth, ostensibly, on paper.

CARLSON:  Yes.

CROWLEY: But it‘s also about socialization, and it‘s sort of a halfway house between living with your parents, as you did in high school and going off into the real world and working in, you know, real true professional job. 

CARLSON:  It‘s about liver damage for a lot of people, I think. 

Monica Crowley. 

CROWLEY:  Great to see you. 

CARLSON:  Thank you very much. 

CROWLEY:  Thanks, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Still to come, “The Outsider,” Max Kellerman, stops by with a conviction about everything from low rider jeans to college classes, hamburgers.  Max, what do you have?

MAX KELLERMAN, ESPN:  I like Monica Crowley. 

CARLSON:  I do too, Max.  We have that in common. 

And much else.  We‘ll highlight the differences, though, in a moment. 

Plus, long-time boyfriend of a famous singer disappears without a trace.  Was murder involved, or did the man fake his own death?  We‘ll bring you the mysterious details when THE SITUATION rolls on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Still to come, an Ohio couple tries to sell off a 15-year-old girl for a bag of cocaine. 

Plus, the continuing search for 20-year-old missing model Julie Popovich.  “The Crime Blotter,” next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

CARLSON:  Welcome back.  Time for tales of wrongdoing and justice served.  It‘s “THE SITUATION Crime Blotter,” our nightly summary of who done it, who caught them. 

First up on the blotter, Olivia Newton-John‘s boyfriend vanishes under mysterious circumstances.  Patrick McDermott set off on an overnight fishing trip off the California coast, telling friends he‘d be back July 1.  He hasn‘t been seen since. 

His gear was later found on the boat.  McDermott‘s family realized he was missing on July 6 and contacted the Coast Guard five days later.  Newton-John issued a plea today with anyone with any information to come forward. 

Another missing persons case in Ohio, this one involving an aspiring model.  Twenty-year-old Julie Popovich was last seen leaving a bar the night of August 11.  Friends say she was drunk, so drunk she fell and hit her head while dancing on the bar. 

According to police, quote, “There are several indications that lead us to believe that her absence is not voluntary.”  So far, though, no concrete leads. 

And a case so bad a U.S. attorney called it, quote, “the worst type of crime that can be perpetrated on a child.  The FBI nabbed an Ohio couple who they say planned to sell a 15-year-old girl into prostitution, in exchange for cocaine.  The couple was found asleep in the car with a girl and a 13-year-old boy, both of whom reportedly were runaways.  The adults could face 30 years behind bars. 

The biggest crime story of the day was the dramatic courtroom confrontation in Atlanta.  Olympic bomber Eric Rudolph was sentenced today to life in prison, and a $2.3 restitution payment for a series of bombings he committed across the south. 

He apologized after victims and relatives blasted him in court, though he smirked and rolled his eyes during the testimony of some victims. 

Stone was an agent for the Georgia Bureau of Investigation for more than 25 years.  He began tracking Rudolph the night of the Olympic bombing.  He‘s the author of “Hunting Eric Rudolph.”  Thanks a lot for joining us. 

CHARLES STONE, CO-AUTHOR, “HUNTING ERIC RUDOLPH”:  Quite welcome. 

Good evening. 

CARLSON:  Good evening.  As I understand it, Eric Rudolph was mad at the federal government.  What I never understood is why he chose to set off a bomb at the Olympics in Atlanta.  Why did he do that?

STONE:  Well, I think if you look at his original writings, when he wrote to the media after the bombings in Atlanta and after Birmingham, I think you got his true beliefs.  He is an anti-Semitic, racist bigot who espoused the militia doctrine. 

Since his capture, of course, he‘s tried to draw a following in the anti-abortion fringe element, but up until he was caught, he never even brought up abortion.  I interviewed his mother, and his mother said that another brother would be more likely to bomb an abortion clinic than Eric would. 

CARLSON:  His behavior doesn‘t add up to really anything.  For instance, he was on the run, I think for more than five years, living some of the time in the woods of North Carolina.  Is there any evidence that he hurt anyone or committed any crimes while on the run?

STONE:  To my knowledge, he did not hurt anyone while he was on the run.  He did commit other crimes.  That area of western North Carolina is half a million acres of pure wilderness, with pockets and enclaves of vacation homes.  While he was a fugitive, he broke into several homes. 

We believe he spent a great deal of time in some of the cabins based upon various and sundry things, including the loss of food stuffs, the loss of clothing, whereas a normal burglar would have taken the TVs, taken the microwaves, and things like that. 

CARLSON:  Now, Eric Rudolph, obviously a terrorist, but there was some support for him, as I remember, in North Carolina.  I remember seeing signs, “Run, Rudolph, run.” 

Is there any evidence that he was helped by the local population while he was on the run?

STONE:  Tucker, I don‘t believe so.  I think a lot of the signs and advertising you saw were tongue and cheek, and mainly directed towards the media.  And I guess in the classic American fashion, taking advantage of the situation to make a dollar. 

The people I met with in western North Carolina, and I dealt with everybody from the militia people on up to the average citizen, I couldn‘t find anybody that generated a whole lot of support for Eric. 

There are some people in that area, obviously, that don‘t care for the federal government, but the people that I dealt with, I couldn‘t determine any support for Eric.

And when you consider the circumstances of his arrest, he was scavenging in a Dumpster for food.  I think that speaks for itself, and he didn‘t have a very minimal—or no support at all. 

CARLSON:  Now, finally, I always wondered about one element of the story, Mr. Stone. 

Apparently, the night of the Atlanta bombings, Eric Rudolph called a 911 operator to say, “I‘ve set a bomb in Centennial Park, and it‘s going to go off in half an hour,” and the operator hung up on him.  Is that what happened?

STONE:  Yes.  Eric released that information today, and it‘s been confirmed.  He placed the first 911 call, using a voice disguising electronic device, and the operator hung up on him.  Apparently, she couldn‘t understand him. 

He panicked, walked, according to his own statement, a block later, made another 911 call without the electronic disguising device.  He just basically held his nose and spoke into the phone.  That‘s the recording everyone heard—there‘s a bomb in Centennial Park, and you have 30 minutes.  That information, unfortunately, never reached law enforcement in the park. 

CARLSON:  All right.  Charles Stone, author of “Hunting Eric Rudolph,” joining us live tonight.  Thanks a lot, Mr. Stone.  Appreciate it. 

STONE:  You‘re quite welcome. 

CARLSON:  Coming up, a revealing new ad from Dolce and Gabbana, whatever they are.  Are so-called pubic pants a new trend in fashion, or just downright dumb?  I‘ll ask “The Outsider” when we come back. 

Plus, we venture into sacred territory never before discussed on this show.  Are there, in fact, aliens from outer space living among us?  I‘ll speak with a man who says he has evidence of the existence of the UFO‘s when THE SITUATION continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Oh, yes, it‘s time for “The Outsider,” a man who spends cross country flights reading the sky mall catalog instead of the “New York Times” and yet arrives night after night to argue news with a paid professional, and in fact sometimes wins. 

Ladies and gentlemen, THE SITUATION is proud to introduce from the throbbing heart of New York City, ESPN radio and HBO boxing host, Max Kellerman. 

KELLERMAN:  Don‘t knock the sky mall catalog, Tucker.  Sometimes my dog needs a pedicure. 

CARLSON:  OK.  I‘ve bought many executive decision-makers in various golf... 

KELLERMAN:  Did you miss me while you were gone, Tucker?

CARLSON:  I did. 

KELLERMAN:  I missed you. 

CARLSON:  Thank you for hosting Friday, too.  I appreciate it. 

KELLERMAN:  I did a tremendous job, I might add. 

CARLSON:  I know you did. 

Max, surely you‘ve caused more than one “oy vey” by wearing your trademark, low-riding blue jeans, but Yiddish camp and a national ad campaign are two entirely different things. 

Dolce Gabbana has caused a stir with this ad for its new line of jeans.  The ad appears in September‘s “Esquire” magazine.  It exposes everything north of the actual private part. 

Hey, look, I don‘t want to se these on billboards, Max, but that‘s not my real problem with this.  My real problem, this ad‘s a lie.  This ad suggests, you wear these pants, you‘re going to get some.  OK?  These are your ticket to sex. 

You wear these pants, you‘re going to look like a tool.  There‘s no way you‘re going to convince any woman to sleep with you while wearing these jeans.  You‘re going to look like a dork.

KELLERMAN:  It may not be for the women, Tucker.  Look, as someone who has been photographed by Avadon—I was photographed by Richard Avadon for a Slate ad—let me just say, I‘m going to something that you‘ve never heard before and I think applies here.  OK?

CARLSON:  OK.  That is the most shameless thing that‘s ever been said. 

Let me ask quickly, were you clothed?

KELLERMAN:  Yes, I was.  It‘s an original concept, so try and get your mind around it. 

CARLSON:  I shall. 

KELLERMAN:  Sex sells.  Or at least people think sex sells. 

CARLSON:  Yes, it absolutely does.  I mean, every malt liquor ad in the world says get some, drink King Cobra. 

KELLERMAN:  Right.

CARLSON:  But the point is, you wear these pants, you‘re not getting any.  OK.  So I just object to it on decency grounds, not because the ad‘s offensive, but because it‘s a total lie. 

KELLERMAN:  Maybe you‘re not getting any.  It depends on what kind of you have to be able to pull it off.  Now, a certain kind of guy can pull that off.  I‘m not claiming to be one of them. 

CARLSON:  Uh-huh, Max, women don‘t want to see that.  I‘m sorry.  I live with one.  I‘ve got a bunch of daughters.  I know women.  They don‘t want to see it. 

KELLERMAN:  I know men—I don‘t want to see it. 

CARLSON:  Exactly. 

Well, it seems that there are a lot of legal cases these days involving teenage boys and older women with grown-up intentions, and of course, we‘ve covered them all.  We‘ll continue to do that.  It‘s our job.

The latest, the indictment of 34-year-old Anette Pharris after she hired an exotic dancer to perform at her son‘s 16th birthday party.  The charges: contributing to the delinquency of a minor and involving minor in lewd acts. 

Now, I‘m always on this side, Max.  I just don‘t understand why the government is intruding into private family matters such as hiring strippers.  But here‘s my key question. 

KELLERMAN:  Yes. 

CARLSON:  Where‘s the harm?  The government ought to have to show harm before it takes people to court, much less a grand jury, right, and prosecutes them for a crime.  Who was hurt here?

KELLERMAN:  That‘s a very good standard, I think, but let me --= I‘ll play the devil‘s advocate here, which apparently I‘m paid to do. 

CARLSON:  Yes. 

KELLERMAN:  You don‘t have to agree with the law, but it‘s the law.  And we as a society have standards, where we say, you know what?  Even though this is your family, if you exercise judgment that we deem poor enough, there can be intervention. 

For instance, child neglect.  And if a 16-year-old is defined as a minor, and it‘s illegal to, you know, behave lewdly in front of a minor sexually, for an adult to behave that way, it‘s against the law.  So government must intervene.  We‘re a nation of laws. 

CARLSON:  Here‘s—here‘s who ought to be in prison.  The mother was busted, because she took pictures of this.  She wasn‘t embarrassed.  She took photographs of it, and she brought them to a drug store to have them developed. 

The person working at the drug store looked at the pictures and called the cops, tattled on the mom.  Becoming a nation of tattle tells is much more dangerous than strippers at a 16-year-old birthday party, I think. 

KELLERMAN:  Particularly because you look a 16-year-old boy you look at, I don‘t know how you identify them as 16 and not 18.  I mean, it‘s kind of arbitrary, and that certainly seems despicable for that person to have done that. 

CARLSON:  Yes.

KELLERMAN:  But you know, you can disagree with the law, but if it‘s law, what are you supposed to do?  You have to enforce it. 

CARLSON:  I think you should ignore laws you don‘t agree with.  Just kidding. 

Max, you take pride in New York, right?  I know you do.  Well, you might now feel shame, because New York University now offers a course called Hamburger Heaven.  It‘s a discussion and review of the best hamburgers in America.  It‘s reportedly a favorite among those majoring in condiments.  That‘s a big field of study at NYU.

This video, of course, is a dramatization.  We can‘t vouch for complete accuracy.  Unfortunately, for the record, this is not the actual NYU course about hamburgers.  That is yet another THE SITUATION reenactment performed by THE SITUATION players.  Do not attempt this at home.  It was shot, by the way, right here at the MSNBC commissary. 

Let me just point out, I‘m totally for this, Max, for two reasons.  Studying hamburgers is a lot more wholesome and useful than a lot of things people study in college, like deconstruction.  Right?

KELLERMAN:  Right.

CARLSON:  And secondly, it points up the essential silliness of a lot of college in the first place, something I think that‘s useful for most Americans to see.  This is what your tuition dollars are going toward.  I‘m for this course, because it tells people what college is really about. 

KELLERMAN:  As someone who comes from a background where college may not have been right from you, because you‘re independent thinker, because you come from a certain socioeconomic strata.

But I think the mistake most people make about college is they think that it is career prep, that you need to major in what your career is going to be in, that it leads to a job in the workplace.  That‘s not the importance of college. 

The important of college is, for four years of your life, or in my case, seven, you can immerse yourself in whatever it is you want to learn, not for any other reason other than learning for the sake of learning, for the idea that knowledge and, more importantly, the ability to think how you think is important.  So, I think for the vast majority of people college is a very good thing.

CARLSON:  Yes, if you want to learn about hamburgers you ought to pay for it yourself.  The government and your parents shouldn‘t be paying for it.  But, look, I‘m all for studying hamburgers, better than feminism.  Max Kellerman, as always.

KELLERMAN:  It sounds like an easy A.

CARLSON:  I think it is.

KELLERMAN:  I‘d have taken it.

CARLSON:  As long as you‘re hungry. 

All right, there‘s still plenty more ahead on THE SITUATION.  Here is just a small taste from our classified X files.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARLSON (voice-over):  A close encounter with a man who claims we are not alone.

TOM CRUISE:  Believe it or not I can‘t handle it.

CARLSON:  Plus, why that toddling town‘s got tourists feeling down in the dumps. The feds crack down on cop code.And, an engrossing defense for marijuana.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I don‘t remember what I was going to say.

CARLSON:  It‘s all ahead on THE SITUATION.  Stay tuned.

CRUISE:  But you‘re not going to, are you?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  This weekend marked the 50th anniversary of an alleged landing of aliens known as the Little Green Men in Kelly, Kentucky.  The event was commemorated by a get together in Hopkinsville, Kentucky dubbed The Little Green Men Festival.  The name doesn‘t exactly beg you to take UFOs and aliens seriously.

But Peter Davenport does and so do a lot of other people.  Mr.  Davenport is the director of the National UFO Reporting Center.  He‘s a Stanford graduate.  He spoke at The Little Green Men Festival and he joins me now.  Mr. Davenport, thanks a lot for coming on.

PETER DAVENPORT, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER:  You‘re welcome, thanks Tucker.

CARLSON:  I take what you say seriously.  Here‘s the question that‘s always nagged at me.  If there are UFOs, the government obviously would have a—the federal government would have a real interest in finding out for national security reasons among others.  They know presumably if these exist.  Why would they hide that information from the public?

DAVENPORT:  I don‘t know.  I wish I had an adequate answer for that question.  I‘m afraid you‘re going to have to pose that to the government to get an adequate answer.  I just don‘t know and it‘s one of the many things that really mystifies us UFO investigators and which we think is significant.  We suspect they have a great deal more information than they‘re letting on and they clearly are not sharing that with the American people.

CARLSON:  Well, the government is made up of ordinary Americans by and large, including military pilots, who would be in a position to see UFOs if, in fact, they visited this planet regularly.

DAVENPORT:  Yes.

CARLSON:  Why aren‘t there many former, retired say, military pilots talking about the UFOs they‘ve seen in public?

DAVENPORT:  There are indeed.  We‘ve received many reports from them and other UFO organizations have as well over recent years and they‘re coming forward in ever greater numbers to report their experience with this phenomenon.

CARLSON:  Why do you think those reports don‘t make it into the mainstream press very often?

DAVENPORT:  That‘s another interesting question.  I don‘t know.  There have been some dramatic and very interesting UFO events that have occurred in my tenure, the last eleven years as director of the National UFO Reporting Center and we can‘t give this information away in many respects.  That is very surprising to me.

CARLSON:  I know there was a widely covered, sort of widely covered event in Arizona in 1997, UFOs, objects in the sky anyway seen by thousands of people including air traffic controllers, what do you think that was?

DAVENPORT:  Well, I don‘t have the luxury of being able to say what it is but I can say what it was not and the objects and they were in airspace above Arizona for probably an hour and a quarter, maybe an hour and a half, were not meteors.  They were not terrestrial aircraft that anyone has been able to recognize since the event.

And that‘s the thing that we‘re usually left with in the field of Ufology is about all we can do is eliminate logical possibilities and we‘re always left with this question mark.  Until we have a long handled butterfly net that will allow us to reach up and snag one of these objects, all we can do is label them as another I‘m afraid.

CARLSON:  Ufology, I‘ve never heard that, thanks for introducing that term.  How do I as an ordinary person know if I‘m looking at an UFO or say a weather balloon?  What are the marker signs for UFOs?

DAVENPORT:  Well, there really aren‘t that many weather balloons.  That‘s an old saw that people frequently allude to.  But your question implies there could be mistaken identity and, in fact, that is very often the case.

I would say probably upwards of 90 percent of the time that people call our center in Seattle to report what they thought or think might be a UFO it is, in fact, not a UFO at all, not a genuine UFO. 

It‘s a satellite or a celestial body of some kind, perhaps a light or an object they simply can‘t identify but that doesn‘t necessarily make it a ship from another part of our galaxy obviously.  So that‘s the job of an experienced UFO investigator is trying to separate out those cases from the genuine cases.

CARLSON:  So, for our viewers watching at home who are interested in learning more about this, being convinced, tell me quickly one example people can look up on Google in the last ten years of a UFO sighting in this country that‘s pretty compelling that might convince them that these are real?

DAVENPORT:  Yes.  I would say it‘s the one you‘ve alluded to already, Tucker, and that is the so-called Phoenix lights case that occurred over Arizona on the 13th of March, 1997, in my opinion, probably the most dramatic UFO event that has occurred since the alleged case at Roswell, New Mexico back in July of 1947.

I remember the night very well.  I was working on the hotline and it was very dramatic, many calls a minute about that.

CARLSON:  I have to say I‘m not exactly out there every weekend searching for Nessie or Bigfoot but that was a pretty compelling story.  People should look it up.  Peter Davenport thanks a lot for joining us.  I appreciate it.

DAVENPORT:  Thanks a lot, Tucker.

CARLSON:  Coming up, border security is at a crisis point in the desert southwest and one of our viewers has a pretty interesting solution that‘s free.

Plus, have you been living your life vicariously through Brad Pitt and Jennifer Anniston?  And, if you have, shame on you.  But anyway, brace yourself there‘s news.  It‘s not happy but it‘s next.  Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.

It‘s time to look ahead to tomorrow‘s news right now.  For that, we turn to the most trusted man in news.  You know him from the Cutting Room Floor.  It‘s Willie Geist.

GEIST:  The most trusted man in news, boy that‘s just incorrect actually.  You know I was...

CARLSON:  Make it real, Willie.

GEIST:  I was actually just going to crack on the UFO guy but he was the most credible UFO spokesman I‘ve ever seen, so I‘ve not a bad word to say, except the one photograph he showed from Phoenix.

CARLSON:  I think actually we put up that photograph.

GEIST:  Oh, we sort of did that?

CARLSON:  Yes, I think we did.

GEIST:  I actually have some breaking news off the top here.  This just crossed the wires.  Nineteen hundred pounds of beef have been recalled from a Wisconsin beef plant.  It went out to about six states for E coli and they‘re looking into Mad Cow Disease, so keep an eye on this and keep an eye on your burgers.

CARLSON:  Just happened.

GEIST:  Just happened.  In the meantime, there‘s the rest of the news tomorrow.

CARLSON:  Thank you, Willie.

Well, tomorrow the “You don‘t speak for me Cindy” caravan will continue it‘s journey from San Francisco to Crawford, Texas.  The group of President Bush supporters, including some with children who have served in the military, are getting together to oppose Cindy Sheehan‘s antiwar message.  Sheehan‘s son was, of course, killed in Iraq.  She‘s been protesting the war at President Bush‘s ranch for more than two weeks.

GEIST:  What‘s your take on Cindy Sheehan?  I know you‘re against the war but you kind of have an interesting take.  We were talking about it earlier.

CARLSON:  Oh, I don‘t know.  I think, I mean I think Cindy Sheehan has allied herself with a lot of extremists, hard left extremist people who hate the United States.  On the other hand, you know, her son was killed in Iraq.

GEIST:  Right.

CARLSON:  And I take her grief seriously and I understand it and I think that people who support the war ought to be able to listen to her and take it.  I mean if one woman‘s—one mother‘s grief shakes your faith in the war, you know, that says something.

GEIST:  I agree.  I mean if you want to stick up for the war that‘s one thing but no personal attacks on her are appropriate.

CARLSON:  Yes.

GEIST:  She‘s earned the right to protest.

CARLSON:  She‘s hanging out with a bunch of lunatics which is part of her problem.

GEIST:  True.

CARLSON:  But, you know, her son was killed, gees.

The Rolling Stones play their second gig at Fenway Park in Boston tomorrow night.  Boston is the first stop on their latest world tour.  The Stones made news on opening night, Sunday, by not playing their new anti-Bush administration song, “Sweet Neo Con” it‘s called. 

In between moments of cheating death, 61-year-old Keith Richards said “President Bush doesn‘t listen to us anyway.”  You know I think any sensible person would listen to Keith Richards because, as we just pointed out, he‘s still alive.

GEIST:  He defies medicine.

CARLSON:  He knows something we don‘t know.

GEIST:  You know what, I‘ve seen the Stones and what you have to give the Stones is they‘re not faking you out.  They just give you the greatest hits concert.  You know how some of these bands come out and they want you to listen to their new jazz album.  They play a couple numbers. 

They‘re giving you “Satisfaction,” “Jumping Jack Flash.”  They give the people what they want.  Go see them.  And the prices are only about $3,500 a ticket, so you (INAUDIBLE).

CARLSON:  So, they‘re not playing “Sweet Neo Con”.

GEIST:  No.

CARLSON:  That sounds like the least compelling pop tune every written.

GEIST:  I think mostly they‘re not playing it because it stinks.  That might be the main reason.

CARLSON:  Yes, of course, you‘re exactly right, a song about Paul Wolfowitz.  I would not listen.

Our next item isn‘t from news of tomorrow per se but it‘s one of those stories whose ripples will continue out to the horizon for generations to come.  That‘s right, Brad and Jen officially divorced.  A California judge has signed off on the divorce papers for Brad Pitt and Jennifer Anniston.  Anniston filed for divorce in March citing irreconcilable differences.  It will become official October 2nd and, of course, we‘ll update you the moment that happens.

GEIST:  Of course, it‘s never real until you see the ink on the paper, Tucker, and it never gets easier.  You still have that window where you think maybe these kids will put it back together and it‘s real now.

CARLSON:  It‘s never real until you read it in “US Weekly.”  And we have a rule on this show.  We never use the phrase US Weekly without parenthetically noting whose every story is true.

GEIST:  Absolutely and there‘s someone in this room, I won‘t say who, who has a subscription.

CARLSON:  Yes.  That‘s, in fact, me.  I subscribed when I started the show in an effort to be, you know, more closely connected to the popular culture and I kind of (INAUDIBLE).

GEIST:  I support you in that endeavor.

CARLSON:  Thank you, Willie, Willie Geist, see you in a minute.

GEIST:  Pleasure.

CARLSON:  Coming up, go on vacation for a week and politics goes to pot.  Robin Williams comes up in the California governor‘s race and we‘ve got viewers completely stoked about that.  Hear all about it when THE SITUATION rolls on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.

Sitting in for Brutus the Barber Beefcake, I‘m Tucker Carlson.  Time now for our voice mail segment where we encourage you to share you thoughts about a story in the news, the show itself or even the host.  Let‘s take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ED, TOLLHOUSE, CALIFORNIA:  Hi, Tucker Carlson, Ed Hager (ph), Tollhouse, California and my question is on border security.  One of the arguments about not securing our southern borders is nobody wants to do the work that the Mexicans are doing coming up here yet we have rampant unemployment and we have chronic generations of welfare.  Why can‘t we force those people in order to collect their welfare and their unemployment to work the jobs that the Mexicans that come across the border illegally do?  Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Well, it‘s an interesting question.  I mean immigration does undercut the rationale for welfare if there are people to come across the border and, you know, do any sort of job it does sort of make you wonder why able-bodied people are getting government handouts.  I don‘t know, interesting question—next up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAY, NEW JERSEY:  This is Kay from Jersey.  I was wondering a seven-year-old being handcuffed and thrown on the floor what did he do?  I‘m sorry, it‘s just ridiculous and if I was the parents I‘d be suing the cops and the school board for what they did.  A seven-year-old does not deserve that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Well, Kay, there‘s never any good reason to sue.  I don‘t care how many fingers or other human digits I find in my fast food I would never sue anybody for any reason.  However, you‘re absolutely right.  Handcuffing a seven-year-old, you can imagine what the cops said when they got home.  They feel like they, you know, sort of put away one of society‘s most dangerous criminals.  It‘s outrageous and they ought to be embarrassed, though no sued—next up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN, BOCA RATON, FLORIDA:  Hey, this is Sean from Boca Raton, Florida.  I‘m just calling because I just saw the story about Robin Williams running for governor.  That would be terrific, I mean Mork versus the Terminator what a great race that would be, fabulous man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Fabulous man, spoken like someone who lives in Boca Raton. 

I can tell you it was a native Californian.  California deserves better.  California is not a joke, honestly.  I know it seems like it is but it‘s not.  It‘s a serious state, a big economic force. 

Robin Williams as governor, can you imagine the press conferences?  Robin Williams launches into one of his episodes, nine bizarro voices.  It would be sort of amusing, but like the governor now, the amusement wears off pretty quickly.  I hope someone real runs—next up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STARBUCK, FLORIDA:  This is Starbuck from Florida.  I was wondering Ben Stein said that George Bush is a good-looking man.  Are we all looking at the same picture?  He‘s ugly.  Bill Clinton is a good-looking man.  George Bush completely other side of the spectrum.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Well, first of all, it‘s not really for me to judge the relative hunkiness of American presidents.  What do I know?  They all look the same to me.  I don‘t believe your name was really Starbuck, however—next up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH, BOCA RATON, FLORIDA:  Hi, this is Josh again in Boca Raton, Florida.  I‘m just calling about this whole moonbeam violation.  A cop put a cow in jail.  That‘s totally pathetic.  We can‘t find Osama but we put a cow in jail.  I didn‘t want to call the president and ask that.  Thanks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  I think you must be referring to something Willie Geist said last week on the show.  I blissfully was on an island in Maine unaware of things that Willie Geist was saying.  I don‘t believe that story could possibly be true.  No one could arrest a cow, not even on the Cutting Room Floor.  Sorry to undercut my own show.  I just don‘t believe that could actually happen.  If it did really happen, it‘s a good reason not to go to Columbia.  It‘s just too weird.  All right, next up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANONYMOUS:  Man, I don‘t remember what I was going to say but I really like ya‘ll‘s show and you need to talk more about marijuana and how it‘s bad.  Ben Stein was saying that it makes you trip.  Bad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  The easy thing for me to do would be to judge that last caller and to point out the toll, the terrible psychic toll marijuana can take on a human brain.  But as the host of a show that airs at 11:00 p.m.  Eastern, I can‘t afford to alienate the key marijuana using demographic that tunes in every evening.  So let me just say I judge not.  Get some help, man, you need it bad.

All right, let us know what you‘re thinking.  Call 1-877TCARLSON, that is also 877-822-7576.

Still ahead on THE SITUATION, Donald Trump does everything big so you‘d think he‘d pass up the chance to bring his show to a billion new viewers?  Of course not.  The Donald starts a cultural revolution on the Cutting Room Floor next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.

Time for dessert, the Cutting Room Floor, with the effervescent, yet dry, Willie Geist.

GEIST:  We got to get right to it but I just want to say I don‘t appreciate you impugning my journalistic integrity.  The cow story was true.

CARLSON:  I don‘t believe it for a second.  Well, without so much as a hint of irony in his voice, Donald Trump told a Chinese newspaper he‘s bringing a version of his wildly capitalist show “The Apprentice” to wildly communist China.  Trump will be the executive producer of the show that will be hosted by a Beijing real estate mogul.  No word yet on the Chinese host‘s version of the catch phrase “You‘re Fired.”

GEIST:  You know what the untold story behind this is?  He‘s doing it to spite another Chinese businessman who has a reality show.  Trump‘s in a legal battle with this guy in New York.  He‘s just doing it to knock him in the ratings.  That‘s just classic Trump.  He goes where you live and defeats you, awesome.

CARLSON:  He‘s got style.

GEIST:  So good.

CARLSON:  Even if you live in China, impressive.

GEIST:  He‘ll find you.

CARLSON:  Well, time for this week‘s evidence of the Guinness Book of World Records need to be abridged badly.

GEIST:  Yes, we‘re looking at the world record holder in the longest eyebrows category.  Frank Ames‘ 3.7 inch bushy brows were good enough to give him the honor.  A co-worker suggested Ames have his unsightly eyebrows measured by officials from the Guinness book.  My question, Willie, who is the official who did the measuring?

GEIST:  I don‘t know but that‘s a pathetic job.  I think Guinness is getting lazy though.  I know people with longer eyebrows.  Those weren‘t even that big.

CARLSON:  I do too.  I‘ve had like four history teachers who could beat it.

Well cop speak is a time honored tradition in the world of law enforcement.  Police have a code language all their own but it may become a dead language, like Latin, if FEMA has anything to say about it.  FEMA officials say cop lingo is confusing and inconsistent across police departments.  They‘re telling police to speak in plain English or risk federal funding.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  We‘re saying that in order to continue federal funding from any of the departments in federal agencies that they need to meet those requirements by the end of FY ‘06.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GEIST:  Did I catch an FY ‘06 in there?  I think there might be a double standard.  Could we hear that again?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  They need to meet those requirements by the end of FY ‘06.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GEIST:  Oh, really, so it‘s a double standard.

CARLSON:  I hear the irony meter going off in the background.

GEIST:  Yes, check yourself FEMA spokesperson.

CARLSON:  Not the most self aware group in America.

GEIST:  No.

CARLSON:  Well, when you‘re in Chicago, I guess you could visit the Sears Tower, Lakeshore Drive or Wrigley Field but if you really want to know the windy city, and who doesn‘t, you have to get to know its trash.

A new three-hour down in the dumps bus tour of Chicago hits all the highlights of the city‘s garbage scene, including the waste treatment plant and recycling center.  That‘s all for only seven bucks a head.

GEIST:  Sounds like a deal.  But really if you‘re looking at toxic waste as a vacation plan, we‘d like to have you right here in Secaucus, New Jersey.

CARLSON:  Yes, we would.

GEIST:  We‘d love to have you.  It‘s the jewel of the Meadowlands and it‘s a wonderful place.

CARLSON:  Come on by.  You‘re always welcome.  Willie Geist.

That‘s THE SITUATION for tonight.  Thanks for watching.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END   

Content and programming copyright 2005 NBC.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED.  Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon NBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

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