updated 8/23/2005 10:29:04 AM ET 2005-08-23T14:29:04

Guest: Frank Liversedge, William Epperson, Katrina Szish, Rod Wheeler, Ivan Golde, Daniel Horowitz, Susan Polk, Beth Holloway Twitty, Art Wood, Greg Estep, Clive Paula, Ben Presson, John Hawthorne, Jr., Fallon Stubbs, Deborah Rudolph

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Hello, everybody.  I‘m Rita Cosby, and the search is on right for singer Olivia Newton-John‘s long-time boyfriend.  And she is pleading for anyone with information to come forward.  Her boyfriend was on board a boat that left a marina in San Pedro, California, but he has not been seen since.

In just a minute, an exclusive interview with the man who runs that marina.  But first, KNBC‘s Ted Chen is live in San Pedro with the very latest.  Ted, his disappearance is so bizarre.  What do you know?

TED CHEN, KNBC:  Oh, it is bizarre, Rita, because there is very little that points in any direction.  Was this a suicide?  Did he run away?  Was there foul play?  There is very little information that suggests any of those possibilities.  All we know for sure is that this man left this marina on a boat seven weeks ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over):  Those who know Patrick McDermott say nothing had seemed wrong.  His nine-year relationship with Olivia Newton-John appeared strong.  He told friends it was only an overnight fishing trip he was taking on board the charter boat Freedom.  Even his neighbors say McDermott, who is active in neighborhood watch, would have told them if he was planing anything longer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  We didn‘t know.  He didn‘t tell Bob.  He didn‘t tell me.

CHEN (on camera):  And he normally does that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Well, yes, because we‘re—you know, we‘re up and down the block all the time.

CHEN (voice-over):  Even when Freedom left San Pedro the night of June 30, nothing seemed out of the ordinary.  McDermott was one of 23 fishermen who traveled to San Clemente and made their way back the next morning.  About two miles from San Pedro, crew members say he was in the galley, paying for his trip.  And the landing manager says other fishermen told him they saw McDermott get off the boat on July 1.

FRANK LIVERSEDGE, MANAGER, 22ND STREET LANDING:  Some of the passengers that were on the boat, not the crew, but some of the passengers indicated that they saw him get off the boat.

CHEN:  But when McDermott failed to show up at a gathering five days later, family members began to worry.  They found out McDermott had left his wallet and fishing gear on board the Freedom and left his car in the parking lot.  The Coast Guard began an investigation but said there was not enough information to begin a search.

WILLIAM SCOTT EPPERSON, U.S. COAST GUARD:  This was reported to us about five, six days after the boat came in and he didn‘t show up.  So there wasn‘t actually an area that we could do a search on.

CHEN:  Newton-John, meanwhile, has hired private investigator Gavin de Becker, to help find McDermott.  He is the same investigator who helped the singer thwart a stalker in 1983.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And Rita, the only hint of discord we‘ve been able to gather so far is that an Australian newspaper reports that McDermott complained to crew members...

COSBY:  And we seem to have lost the satellite there.

And Joining us, though, on the phone is the gentleman we saw on the piece, William Epperson.  He‘s with the U.S. Coast Guard, a warrant officer.

Officer, first of all, what do you know about the comings and goings?  You know, some people are saying that they saw him actually leave the boat.  Do you know that?

EPPERSON:  What we know so far is what we‘ve had through—or gotten through the investigation with interviews with crew members and passengers, and so far we haven‘t gotten any information that he did or didn‘t leave the boat.  They say—some say they might have seen him.  Some of them—you know, haven‘t, you know, really confirmed that they don‘t know that that was definitely him.

COSBY:  Yes, because what I find it strange is what we just heard in the report, that his wallet was left on the boat.  It would seem odd that somebody would leave unless they forgot it and were planning on coming back.

EPPERSON:  Right.

COSBY:  Now, what do you know in terms of the fact that it was reported some days late?  You mentioned this in the piece.  I find it astounding.  Someone‘s missing.  Even his neighbors would know if he was going to be longer than a day, and yet nobody reports him missing for almost a week?

EPPERSON:  Right.  What—the information that we got and—or the family came to us with information on the 6th of July, after he hadn‘t reported for a family event.  What happened before that, I‘m not sure.  I‘m not sure if his personal life or what—he might not—you know, who he might have had contact with or might not have had contact with, so...

COSBY:  What‘s strange, sir, is—as we‘re looking at a timeline here on June 30, he was last seen on the fishing boat.  You pointed out on the 6th, he failed to show up for a family event and then it‘s reported.  And then the family discovers his vehicle at the marina, contacts the Coast Guard at that point.  Do you feel, though, that‘s a little delayed, in terms of event, for someone being missing?

EPPERSON:  The information I have is that when he didn‘t show up for an event—or the family gathering or whatever on the 6th, that‘s when they contacted the authorities...

COSBY:  Why‘d it take so long to find...

EPPERSON:  ... not on the 11th.

COSBY:  Why‘d it take so long to find the vehicle, then, sir?

EPPERSON:  I‘m not exactly sure.  I know that through the investigation on the 11th, they contacted the marina, and they did do a search and find his car sitting there.

COSBY:  All right.  Well, thank you very much.  Please keep us posted. 

We appreciate it.

And now to an exclusive interview with the man who used to run the same boat that Patrick McDermott was on.  Patrick headed out from San Pedro, California, just a few miles south of Los Angeles, on June 30.  That marina is the last place that he was seen on land.  Joining me now live is Frank Liversedge.  He‘s the manager of the 22nd Street Landing company, the company that Patrick rented from for the overnight fishing trip.

Frank, I got to ask you.  You guys found the wallet, correct?  What was in it?

LIVERSEDGE:  His driver‘s license was in it, passport, car keys, some change.  I believe there was an organizer of some type in there also.

COSBY:  Did you go through it right away, or when did you go through it?

LIVERSEDGE:  I didn‘t go through it until his ex-wife gave me permission to go through it on the telephone.

COSBY:  And how many days after his disappearance was that, that you received that call?

LIVERSEDGE:  I believe that was on the 11th of July.

COSBY:  You know, Frank, does it sort of astound you that it took so long to report him missing?

LIVERSEDGE:  Yes.

COSBY:  Is that fishy to you?

LIVERSEDGE:  The whole thing is sort of fishy to me, that a man that was obviously very meticulous would leave his wallet in the bunkroom of a boat.  It‘s something that a man normally doesn‘t do.

COSBY:  Now, some people saw him—some folks that you‘ve spoken to actually saw him leave the ship, is that right?

LIVERSEDGE:  They told me that they were pretty sure that he left the ship.  One of the problems is that—I recognized the guy from his picture on his driver‘s license, but the pictures that the media shows and the pictures that the Coast Guard had doesn‘t look anything like him.

COSBY:  What, it‘s just shorter hair, or what looks different about him?

LIVERSEDGE:  The whole complete person looks different, to be honest with you.

COSBY:  Yes, and in fact, we‘re looking at some pictures now that look a lot different.  One picture is very short hair.  One is long hair.  I understand he also paid the fare, is that correct, Frank?

LIVERSEDGE:  Beg your pardon?

COSBY:  He paid the actual fare for the boat, so he was on at a certain particular time.  How far into the trip do you pay the fare for the trip?

LIVERSEDGE:  The fare is paid before the person leaves the dock.  I collect the money in the office.  At that time, the person fills out a manifest with his name, address, telephone number, and then we give him a ticket and he‘s allowed to board the boat.

COSBY:  Now, there were 23 people, is that correct, who were on the boat also with Patrick?

LIVERSEDGE:  Yes, that‘s correct.

COSBY:  Do you think—in your assessment, sir—you know this boat well—that if he fell overboard, do you think someone on board would have noticed?

LIVERSEDGE:  It was noted that he was on the boat approximately three miles from the San Pedro breakwater.  At that time, everybody on the boat was awake, up and walking around on the back of the boat.  It‘s a million-to-one possibility that he fell overboard during that time.  That thing—it‘s just impossible.  I‘ve been on the boat too many times.  I‘ve ran the boat many years ago.  You just don‘t fall overboard from that point back to the dock.  Even if you tried to purposefully jump overboard, someone would have seen him.  It‘s hard to explain, but at that time, everyone is facing out, looking over the stern of the boat.  It would have been obvious if anybody or anything went over the side.

COSBY:  All right.  Well, Frank, we appreciate it.  And please keep us posted if you get anymore information on this case.

And joining me now is former detective Rod Wheeler.  Rod, what do you think happened to him?

ROD WHEELER, FORMER HOMICIDE DETECTIVE:  You know, Rita, I heard the term “fishy” being used earlier, and I think that‘s actually an understatement.  I think it‘s rather obvious that something has happened here.  Although the question of the day is, you know, what happened?  You know, did this guy walk off on his own, or did somebody abduct him and kidnap him?  Well, I can tell you right now, just from listening to the gentleman that just spoke, it doesn‘t sound like anybody really kidnapped this guy.

Now, let‘s look at the facts.  I mean, why did it take 10 to 11 days for family members to notify the police and...

COSBY:  Yes, Rod, what do you make of that?

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  This is a guy who even the neighbors were saying was so meticulous.

WHEELER:  Absolutely.

COSBY:  He‘s been dating Olivia Newton-John for nine years?  Wouldn‘t you think she‘s missing for a few—you know?

WHEELER:  You know, if the guy has been dating Olivia for nine years and he‘s missing for 11 days, you know, if you listen to the report, she isn‘t the one that even notified the cops.  It was the ex-wife that notified the cops.

COSBY:  Yes, I found that surprising, too.  Didn‘t you?

WHEELER:  That‘s suspicious in and of itself, Rita.  And then secondly, did this guy carry a cell phone?  I haven‘t heard anyone mention about a cell phone.  Most people carry cell phones.  And then the most important question here is, What about cameras on that boat?  Most boats nowadays have cameras either on the boat or at the docking area.  And I‘d be surprised if this particular docking area did not have a camera.  So again, this case, Rita, has clearly more questions than it does answers.

COSBY:  It definitely does.  And if we can show—if I can ask my producers to put up the timeline again?  I find what‘s also interesting, Rod, not just the fact that it took several days to report him, but it took another few days to report the car was missing.  Clearly, the guy was on the boat, fails to show up at a family event July 6.  Then here we‘re looking at July 11.  Then suddenly, they go to where the Coast Guard—you know, where the boat would have been docked, and they find the car, the vehicle there.

WHEELER:  Well, then they said that the...

COSBY:  That sounds fishy, too.

WHEELER:  That‘s right.  They say the family even found the car at the dock.  It wasn‘t even...

COSBY:  Yes, why isn‘t the Coast Guard doing that?

WHEELER:  Exactly.  So I think all of these questions definitely need to be answered.  And you know it leads to?  It leads to a question—and then my other thing is, Where is Olivia during all of this?  Now, it‘s been seven weeks that this gentleman has been missing, and Olivia has just hired a private investigator to try to find out what happened.  I think there‘s a lot of questions here that need to be answered.  And I think some people know exactly what happened to this guy.  They just haven‘t said it yet.

COSBY:  I think there‘s something fishy.  Rod, hang on, because I understand that Frank is still with us, of course, whose boat company is familiar very much with this boat.  Frank, I got to ask you, Rod brought up a great question.  Any security cameras, any surveillance cameras there?

LIVERSEDGE:  The only security cameras are inside the tackle store.  And because of the length of time, I had erased all of the old cameras.  I only keep film for, like, three days.

COSBY:  And of course, because of the way—oh, we missed it.  You guys, thank you both very much.  Terrific job.  And keep us posted, both of you.

And of course, as Rod pointed out, we just heard just recently from Olivia Newton-John.  In fact, she just issued a statement just a short bit ago about Patrick McDermott‘s disappearance.  And she says, quote, “I‘m hopeful that my treasured friend”—remember, this is a guy she dated for nine years, was still dating, apparently, at the time—“is safe and well.  And I‘m grateful to the officials who are working so hard to find Patrick, whom I love very much.  I ask anybody with information that can help to please, please come forward.”

And we‘re joined now by Katrina Szish.  She‘s contributing editor for “US” magazine.  Katrina, first of all, what do you know about their relationship?

KATRINA SZISH, “US” MAGAZINE:  We know that they have been in a very... what is described as a very committed relationship for nine years.  When this is all taking place, Olivia was actually in Australia for a promotional tour, and so she was actually not in California when this happened.

COSBY:  But is it the kind of relationship where she would wonder where her guy is for a few days?

SZISH:  Well, I would wonder where my guy would be.  I was surprised that she did not know about it immediately, or when he didn‘t call, say, the day after he supposedly got home, 24 hours later, she got a little bit concerned.  So it did seem to me that it‘s more of an open relationship, but that‘s definitely not confirmed.

COSBY:  Now, talk about this private investigator because she‘s hired this PI who apparently helped her in another case.

SZISH:  Very much so.  Gavin de Becker, who is very well known for his celebrity security business.  And in 1983, there was a stalker who had been stalking Olivia Newton-John, and she worked with Gavin at that point, who arrested the stalker.  And in fact, the stalker then actually went on to move back to his hometown and is now on death row for killing several family members.  So that was a close call.

COSBY:  Now, based Olivia Newton-John, first of all, give us a little sense of what she‘s been doing.  And do you also think we‘re going to see her involved in the search?

SZISH:  I think the fact that she has specifically hired Gavin de Becker to help with this search shows that she is getting more involved.  I think that enough time has passed that she is getting very concerned.  I know she‘s been in very close contact with Patrick‘s family.  So she is—she is very involved.

COSBY:  All right.  Well, Katrina, thank you very much for giving us some perspective...

SZISH:  Thanks, Rita.

COSBY:  ... on Olivia Newton-John.

And there‘s still a lot more ahead tonight, everybody, from a missing man to a gruesome murder.  Tonight, a woman accused of brutally killing her own husband speaks out from behind bars, and you‘ll see it here first.

Coming up, an exclusive interview with a housewife who stabbed her husband to death.  Was it self-defense?  I‘ll ask her in her first TV interview from behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN POLK, ON TRIAL FOR MURDERING HER HUSBAND:  He was not stabbed 27 times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And underwater in Aruba.  What were divers looking for?  And what did they find in the search for Natalee Holloway?  Natalee‘s mother joins me LIVE AND DIRECT.

And are young women just easy targets?  This model disappeared during a night with her friends.  Now her college campus is wondering who‘s next.

And a shocking courtroom apology.  Olympic Park bomber Eric Robert Rudolph says he‘s sorry for his deadly attacks.  Tonight, a relative gives us an exclusive look at his life and what made him snap, all tonight LIVE AND DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Tonight, another LIVE AND DIRECT exclusive, the first television interview with the housewife accused of stabbing her own husband to death.  Susan Polk is on trial right now, and get this, she may end up defending herself in court.  That means she‘d have to cross-examine the prosecution‘s star witness, her own son.

Late today, she talked to me from her California jail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN POLK, ON TRIAL FOR MURDERING HER HUSBAND:  We were discussing the divorce and our situation, and I think that he realized the inevitability of our being divorced.  And he, in the process of the conversation, snapped, attacked me.  I sprayed him with pepper spray in the face, which enraged him.  I couldn‘t get out of the room, and he dragged me and threw me on the floor by the hair and pulled a knife and began to stab at me.  And I did the only thing that I could think of doing to survive.

COSBY:  Now, a lot of people are saying you stabbed him 27 times.  How that be self-defense?  Explain to us what was going on through your mind.

POLK:  Who is saying that?  That‘s—that‘s—that concerns me.  The coroner‘s report does not say that he was stabbed 27 times.  I think what happened is that the district attorney has constantly thrown out a number that is dramatic and would rule out self-defense in the minds of most reasonable people, myself included.  It‘s not true.  He was not stabbed 27 times, and the coroner testified at the grand jury that he was stabbed five or six times.

COSBY:  You endured a lot of abuse domestically.  Tell us how tough it was to be in that household, Susan.

POLK:  What began to happen is that when I knew I wanted a divorce, he would, every time he saw me, just go after me physically.  He usually didn‘t leave bruises.  Sometimes I‘d get hit in the face.  Sometimes I‘d have black eyes.  Sometimes I‘d have bruises.  But mostly, he would just—just push me around and chase me around the house, and I‘d run away.  And if he had anything in his hands, he‘d throw it in my face or throw furniture or, you know, silverware.  It was just this constant haranguing from him.

COSBY:  Did you believe that night that you were going to die?

POLK:  Well, I think anybody who is thrown on the floor and has somebody on top of them who—particularly someone who weighs—he weighed 170 pounds and I was 110.  Anybody in that position, where that—the attacker is stabbing at them with a knife is going to think they‘re going to die.  I absolutely thought, My life is going to end here unless I do something right now to defend myself.

COSBY:  Speaking of defending yourself, right now, you‘re listed as your own attorney.

POLK:  Yes.

COSBY:  If it remains that way, how will you feel about it?  Are you ready for it?

POLK:  Absolutely.  A defendant who defends themselves actually gives the jury a chance to see who they really are.  And if you think about it, in most trials, you don‘t get that chance.  What you see is the picture that‘s painted by the district attorney and by the defense attorney.  And often, the defendant never testifies.  But if I‘m handling my own defense, I believe that the jury will know who I am.

On the other hand, I‘m scared to death.  I don‘t think I can do as well as an attorney, and I don‘t feel that I‘m smarter than attorneys.  I don‘t have that feeling at all.  But I feel that I have to get this trial to an end for the sake of my children.

They want to know what‘s going to happen.  They want it over.  And I have to go forward.

COSBY:  As playing the role of the attorney, you‘re going to have to question one of your own sons.  Are you ready for that?

POLK:  Yes.

COSBY:  He‘s the one who found your husband‘s body.

POLK:  Well, I‘m actually skeptical that he found my husband‘s body.

How I do feel about questioning him?  I haven‘t spoken to my son for three years, so I‘m looking forward to seeing him, but I‘m sorry that it‘s in that setting.

COSBY:  Well, Susan, thank you very much for being with us.  We‘re going to be watching your case closely.

POLK:  Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And Susan Polk is representing herself for now.  But late today, she asked the court if she could take on two top-notch attorneys.  The judge will decide on that tomorrow.  And those two attorneys are Dan Horowitz and Ivan Golde, and they join me now live.

Dan, why do you want to represent Susan Polk?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Rita, I first interviewed her because one of the TV shows wanted to know about the case.  And as I spoke to her, I realized she is innocent.  Here‘s a completely innocent person, just like the person who lives next door, and she‘s fighting for her life alone.

And what Susan said about attorneys not putting out the true story, not letting the defendant speak for herself, that‘s why she was representing herself.  And I told her, Rita, you know, If you want my help, if you want it, I‘ll be there for you, and I will let your story come through.  I‘ll just be the vehicle for you to speak to the jury.  And eventually, that‘s what she asked me to do.  And Ivan Golde helped.

COSBY:  And you know, Ivan, too, I wanted to bring up the thing—something that we didn‘t get to go into too much in the interview, but she told me the other day—we spoke by phone—she‘s had a lengthy sort of abuse, I mean, in terms of—even her own son hit her because he thought it was OK because that‘s what Dad did, is what she told me.  This was just a horrible situation she was living in, right, Ivan?

IVAN GOLDE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  She really was in a horrible situation, Rita.  Let me tell you this.  I have interviewed Susan for at least 10 hours.  This is a compelling, tragic story.  She truly is a victim, Rita.  This will be an incredible, incredible trial.  It‘s a pleasure to talk to you about this tonight.  I‘m glad you‘re having Susan on.  She is innocent, I guarantee you that.  She is innocent of these charges.

COSBY:  And Ivan, are you going to be able to get forensic experts who can show that those wounds, whatever it was, five or six, turned out to be defensive wounds, that she was physically on the ground?

GOLDE:  We have one of the finest experts in the nation.  Dan Horowitz can tell you more about that.  I think he‘s hired that expert.  And Rita, the expert will tell the truth and help exonerate our client.

HOROWITZ:  Rita, what these wounds show, if I may, it just shows that she‘s trying to say, Get away, get away, waving her arms with the knife that she‘s taken from him.  The wounds are not deep.  None of them should have been fatal.  It‘s not even clear why he died.  He may have actually had a heart attack.  His death was not really an expected result of this knife.  It really, truly is a classic self-defense case.

GOLDE:  The wounds are completely defensive, Rita.  Completely defensive wounds.

HOROWITZ:  And we can prove it, and will.

COSBY:  Dan, what would you guys want on the jury, too?  Is there—do you want someone who‘s endured abuse in their family, or do you want sort of an old traditional guy who‘s going to say, I would never hit a woman, that appalls me?

HOROWITZ:  You know, Rita, I think you want both of those types of people.  This man was her therapist, and when she was 15, he stole her innocence and then took her into his life, and by abuse, psychological abuse and physical abuse, kept her essentially a prisoner.

We want men and women who are going to say, That is not tolerated, and then understand that when she got the strength to say, I want my own life back, my kids are grown, he couldn‘t stand it, and in rage, attacked her.  That‘s very, very compelling.  And I think, really, Rita, most people will understand that.

COSBY:  And Ivan, real quickly, Dan brought up the kids.  How tough is it going to be here for her to question her own son?  Will she still be doing that, or if you guys take on the case, will you be doing that?

GOLDE:  Let me say this, Rita.  It hasn‘t been decided yet.  It probably will be us.  But remember, it‘s her call.  She‘s the client.  She‘s a very, very smart, intelligent woman.  She‘s well prepared.  We‘re there to do it.  But if for some reason, she needs to question her son, she just might do it.

HOROWITZ:  And Rita, she may do it to protect them from harm.  That‘s her goal.  She doesn‘t want anybody attacking her children, even if it hurts her case.  She wants her children safe.

COSBY:  Yes, she even said that to me on the phone, said she loved the children very much.  Both of you, thank you very much.  Keep us posted on the case, guys.

HOROWITZ:  We will.  Certainly will.

GOLDE:  Thank you, Rita.

COSBY:  Thank you very much.

And coming up, everybody, we‘ve got some late-breaking details in the search for a missing college student.  The beautiful model may have been snatched from a big night out.  We have some big developments in the case.

And another missing woman, Natalee Holloway.  Tonight, a possible bombshell in the case, an Aruban attorney now telling at least two people that his client, a young woman, was assaulted by Joran Van Der Sloot.  We‘ll have the details of what this attorney is saying when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER:  From MSNBC world headquarters, here is Rita Cosby.

COSBY:  Tonight, some late-breaking developments in the case—and it could be major, in the case of missing teenager Natalee Holloway.  We understand that there is at least one woman who is getting ready to come forward, saying that she was victimized by Joran Van Der Sloot, and that there may be others to follow.

Beth Holloway Twitty now joins me LIVE AND DIRECT from Aruba.  Also with her is private investigator Art Wood.  Art, I want to begin with you because what do you know about this young woman who may be coming forward?

ART WOOD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Well, Rita, I can tell you this: 

Down here in Aruba tonight, there‘s a courageous young 17-year-old girl who claims that she was raped, and date-raped drugged by Joran Van Der Sloot. 

This girl is going to, in the next few days, is going to go to the prosecutor.  She has an attorney.  And her attorney told me that the young lady is very strong, very courageous, and she‘s not afraid of this judge‘s son. 

COSBY:  Now, Art, when did this happen?  When did this alleged rape take place? 

WOOD:  Amazingly, Rita, this date rape took place very recently, as early as this spring.  The girl also said that she has two classmates or friends who also were raped and drugged by Joran Van Der Sloot. 

COSBY:  And how come she didn‘t come forward sooner, Art? 

WOOD:  You know, I asked her attorney that, and the attorney says, “You know, this girl wants to come forward.  This girl is ready to come forward.  At first, her parents were kind of holding her back.” 

But now that she has an attorney, she is coming out.  And we‘re getting down to the time line.  September 4th is fast approaching.  I think there are other young ladies, both tourists, American or Dutch, plus local girls that need to come forward, if they were in any way inappropriately handled by Joran and his friends. 

COSBY:  You bet.  And I know that all of you put out that plea. 

And, Beth, no one‘s been pleading harder than you.  You have done just such a heroic job out there.  You‘ve talked with this attorney, as well, correct?  Did he tell the same story about his client?  Did you hear similar things, as to what Art was just saying? 

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  Rita, I have not spoken with him. 

COSBY:  You have not spoken with the attorney? 

TWITTY:  No. 

COSBY:  Have you spoken to the girl or anyone connected to the case yet, Beth? 

TWITTY:  No.  No.  I have not become involved in that yet, Rita. 

COSBY:  What‘s your reaction, Beth, hearing this?  You know, because we‘ve talked before about the theory that some people have that Joran may have been a sexual predator.  If, indeed, this is true, and this girl is coming forward and, as Art was saying, has two other friends, that certainly just adds to that case. 

TWITTY:  Oh, absolutely, Rita, and we have made that known now for some weeks ago.  You know, the two things that I knew was that Deepak and Satish Kalpoe or Joran Van Der Sloot are the three men responsible for taking Natalee from Carlos and Charlie‘s. 

And the second fact we had was that Joran confessed to the sexual acts that he committed against Natalee to us on the night of May 31st.  This doesn‘t surprise me at all.  I‘ve known this behavior in Joran for months, but really did not make it public until probably two weeks ago. 

COSBY:  What‘s your feeling, too, if this woman does come forward and looks, you know—comes to authorities, files an actual report, and if her friends also do the same, it certainly helps, Beth.  Certainly, powers in numbers, because then it‘s a face, then it‘s a name to back it up. 

TWITTY:  Oh, yes, and we need these girls to come forward.  And they need to feel comfortable.  And they need to trust and realize that they can do this and they can remain anonymous.  I‘m so grateful for this.  And I‘m hoping, if there are any other girls, will choose to do the same.

COSBY:  And, Beth, you believe that this story is true?  You believe that these women do exist, that they are credible? 

TWITTY:  Oh, I know that Natalee is not his only victim.  There‘s no way.  Absolutely no way, Rita. 

COSBY:  Are you hoping, too, that, if these women do come forward and soon, as it sounds from Art, that, indeed, authorities will, finally, you know, crack down on this and use this as pressure against Joran?  Because, certainly, they have these reports in front of them.  Then they‘ve got some other evidence there? 

TWITTY:  Oh, every piece will be crucial.  And, you know, we need to really work hard and collect all of this evidence, because, you know, time the clock has been ticking.

And, you know, it‘s just taken these girls—this takes a lot of courage for these young females to come forward like this.  And I‘m very impressed that they‘re able to do this.  This is very difficult, because, you know, they realized that they have to live on this island, Rita.  And, you know, I just—I want to make sure that it is done with professionalism and they‘re treated with respect and dignity. 

COSBY:  You bet.  And I agree with you, Beth.  It takes a lot of courage and a lot of guts. 

And my understanding is, Art, these are three Aruban girls, correct? 

WOOD:  That‘s correct.  They‘re all Aruban girls.  And when I talked to the attorney today, Eduardo Mansur was present.  And he works for the “Diario” newspaper.  And he will be printing a story about this in tomorrow morning‘s edition. 

COSBY:  And just real quick, you mentioned spring.  We know that Natalee has been missing since, what, May 30th.  Do we know about what time this happened, soon before that, Art?

WOOD:  Well, the attorney didn‘t give me a date.  She just said it was very recent. 

COSBY:  All right.  Well, both of you, thank you very much. 

And, Beth, our prayers are with you.  And I do hope these women come forward and, as you say, have the courage to come forward, and also other people, too, out there, because more power in numbers, too.  Thank you very much, both of you.  Our prayers are always with you, Beth. 

TWITTY:  Thank you, Rita. 

COSBY:  Thank you, both. 

TWITTY:  Thank you, Rita. 

COSBY:  Thank you.

And, meanwhile, volunteers on Aruba are taking a new approach.  Their search is now on land and also on sea.  Dog teams headed to the beach, sniffing out sand dunes for any clues. 

And then to the sea.  Divers headed 100 feet under water one mile off-shore to check for possible human remains.  Both teams are following up on any tips that have come in about the missing teenager. 

Also, LIVE & DIRECT tonight from Aruba is Clive Paula.  He‘s one of the divers that searched underwater this weekend. 

How tough are the conditions, Clive? 

CLIVE PAULA, DIVER IN ARUBA:  The conditions are fairly good.  Visibility was good.  It wasn‘t as choppy as I expected it to be.  So we did a good search. 

COSBY:  When you say you did a good search, how long were you under water for?  And how many folks were working there with you? 

PAULA:  We were a total of six divers.  We stayed under water for about 45 minutes.  We covered an area of about 500 feet length and about 200 feet wide. 

COSBY:  What could you see under there?  And did you find anything significant? 

PAULA:  No, we didn‘t find anything significant.  It was mostly sandy bottoms, so very easily searched.  So nothing could be hidden anywhere.  So the view was good, so we could see all around us.  But too bad we couldn‘t find anything. 

COSBY:  Yes, absolutely.  Are you going to be going back out there? 

Is there a reason to go back out there soon? 

PAULA:  That‘s the idea.  That‘s the idea.  I‘ve been approached by (INAUDIBLE) actually to help with this search.  And they planned to set up another search.  So they‘re basically more in charge—will try if they can set up a date for it.

They‘re planning for Thursday.  But I don‘t know I will be able to help on Thursday, because, yes, I have my own work that I have to do.  But the idea is to go back out again once or twice. 

COSBY:  Are you volunteering, Clive? 

PAULA:  Yes, I‘m volunteering, yes. 

COSBY:  Good for you.  Good for you.  Well, keep up the good work.  And I know the family and everybody else appreciates it. 

PAULA:  Thank you. 

COSBY:  Thanks so much. 

And coming up, everybody, late-breaking details in the search for a college student who vanished.  Police think that she may have been taken against her will, but to where?  Plus...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Nobody‘s bothering you, right? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Well... 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Eric Robert Rudolph killed people with his bombs.  Now he says he‘s sorry.  But will the families who he tore apart ever forgive him?  A LIVE & DIRECT exclusive coming up, with the father and daughter of the only person to die in the Olympic Park bombings.  Find out what they had to say. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  And we have some late-breaking news in the case of a missing model in Ohio.  We‘re now learning that police have a person of interest in the case of missing Ohio State student Julie Popovich. 

We‘re joined now live by Sergeant Greg Estep of the Columbus Police Department and also the editor for the Ohio State student newspaper, Ben Presson. 

Sergeant, let me start with you.  What can you tell us about this person of interest? 

SGT. GREG ESTEP, COLUMBUS, OH, POLICE DEPARTMENT:  Our investigation has been at the level of—we‘ve considered this an involuntary absence.  We‘ve developed some information recently that‘s leading us to bump that concern up to the level of possibly foul play.  We do have some persons of interest that we are looking at right now and trying to follow up some leads in the case. 

COSBY:  Now, when you say “a tip,” did you get some information from somebody else saying, “We saw something terrible happen”? 

ESTEP:  We‘ve got some tips from people calling in and the people that were there that night that we‘re talking to.  And that‘s how we‘re developing these leads that we‘re speaking of now. 

COSBY:  Are they college students or someone outside of the school? 

ESTEP:  I can‘t speak as to specifics on that. 

COSBY:  Let me bring in Ben, because, Ben, you‘re familiar with this bar where she was at.  She was at a bar called Ledo‘s, right? 

BEN PRESSON, EDITOR, OSU STUDENT NEWSPAPER:  Yes, ma‘am. 

COSBY:  Tell us the scene there.  I‘ve heard it‘s sort of a big, wild party place.  And did anybody see her leave? 

PRESSON:  A good friend I talked to, who actually drove Julie to the bar that night, told me that the next day she was asking some of her close friends, who never recalled seeing Julie leave from the bar.  I went and actually went to Ledo‘s.  And there have been a couple of people who said, “Yes, we saw her playing darts.  We saw her hanging around.”

But I have not spoken to anyone who actually can confirm that they saw her leave. 

COSBY:  And someone saw her—Ben, correct me if I‘m wrong—what was it, about 1:15 in the morning, smoking a cigarette, that that was one of the last sightings of her? 

PRESSON:  Yes, ma‘am.  The source that I have, she said that actually, right before she was about to leave, she said that she saw Julie, and Julie said, “I‘m going outside to smoke a cigarette.”  And that was the last that she or any of her friends had contact with her that she‘s aware of. 

COSBY:  And, Ben, where was her boyfriend?  Who was with her that night? 

PRESSON:  Her boyfriend was supposed to come to the bar.  But he was held up at work.  And he didn‘t get there, but my source told me that there were a number of Julie‘s friends there who could have easily driven her home. 

COSBY:  And, Sergeant, I understand—you know, based on her—she sounds like a fairly responsible person.  One of the things—a lot of people, friends, were saying, from some of the accounts that I was reading, she would say, “Look, I‘m going home with so-and-so.  I‘m doing this.” 

She doesn‘t sound like someone who just would have—you know, just gone off with some stranger, correct? 

ESTEP:  Yes, from what we‘ve talked to the family and friends of Julie, her absence is highly irregular. 

COSBY:  There‘s also a report of a lot of armed robberies in the neighborhood.  Sergeant, one of things I was hearing is that, near restaurants, near bars, is that tied to this case?  Or does that seem unrelated?

ESTEP:  At this point, we haven‘t ruled anything out, as far as that goes.  Obviously, anytime you‘re in a situation at a bar, people just need to take some extra precautions, especially at nighttime. 

COSBY:  Well, I hope that this gets solved soon.  And the fact they have some persons of interest, hopefully is some hope for everybody for this case.  Thank you, both, very much. 

And coming up, what turned Eric Robert Rudolph into a killer that would plant a bomb at the Olympics?  We‘ll have an exclusive look into what drove this madman. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I still thought that he didn‘t have any remorse.  He still had the smirk or smile on his face that he‘s been wearing.  I don‘t think he really cares. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I feel he should have been electrocuted. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Tonight, Olympic Park bomber Eric Robert Rudolph is behind bars, where he will be for the rest of his life.  He was sentenced to life without parole for a string of attacks, including the one in Atlanta. 

Get this:  Rudolph actually apologized today, saying he would, quote, “do anything to take that night back.” 

Alice Hawthorne was the only person killed in the Atlanta attack.  Now an exclusive interview with Alice‘s husband, John Hawthorne, Jr., and her daughter, Fallon Stubbs. 

We appreciate, of course, both of you being here.  I know this must have just been so difficult for you today. 

And, John, I know this was supposed to be, what, your 18th wedding anniversary?  How tough was it to you to be in court instead on this? 

JOHN HAWTHORNE, JR., WIFE DIED IN OLYMPIC PARK BOMBING:  Well, after finding out that the date was going to be August 22nd, I had originally not planned on really making any comments.  But that day was special to me.  And I felt that I needed to make the comments, but it was a mixed emotion. 

It was a day of—go ahead. 

COSBY:  No, you go ahead, sir. 

HAWTHORNE:  All right.  It was a day of mixed emotions, where, on the one hand, you know, I thought about the joy of us getting married.  And today marked the day that justice was served.  So, you know, there was a mixed emotions there. 

COSBY:  You bet.

And, Fallon, I want to show—this is a photo that your mom actually took of you—and I think this is incredible—just moments before the bomb exploded.  I understand it was the last picture—the only picture that was found on that reel.  You were just 13 at the time. 

What goes through your mind when you see this picture of you, happy and smiling, and obviously your mom was, too? 

FALLON STUBBS, MOTHER DIED IN OLYMPIC PARK BOMBING:  Basically, it‘s just the last memory I have of her, is that day, that night, at that moment, so basically, that‘s just how I feel about it that, that just is our final moment.  That‘s our final piece of time. 

I‘m the last person that saw her alive.  So I‘m the last testimony of what she was like at that moment. 

COSBY:  Do you feel that Eric Robert Rudolph got the proper sentence?  He got life in prison, because he worked with authorities on some explosives and other things.  Do you feel this is the proper punishment for someone who killed your mom and injured you? 

STUBBS:  Oh, definitely.  I‘m not a big fan of the death penalty, even in this case.  I think that him having opportunities to think about what he‘s done—and even today showing remorse for what he‘s done to our family—is just a step in the right direction for his healing process. 

COSBY:  And, John, you obviously are angry, as most people would be.  You know, you basically said he‘s a Napoleon, that he‘s a small man with a big bomb.  How did that feel to look him in the eye and finally tell him those words, John? 

HAWTHORNE:  Well, I didn‘t actually get a chance to look directly into his eyes, but he occasionally glanced that way.  But I just continue to view him as a very small person.  And I just wanted to express that to him, that small people have Napoleonic complexes, and they tend to want to compensate for that by dealing with objects a lot bigger than they are. 

COSBY:  And my last question to you, John.  I understand that you have a beautiful scholarship in your wife‘s honor.  Tell us about that, because what a great legacy for her. 

HAWTHORNE:  Well, I started the Alice Hawthorne Memorial Scholarship in 1997, right after her death.  And it was a scholarship to benefit young women who were struggling to get through school, just as Alice had to do. 

It wasn‘t geared towards A- and B-students.  It was that single mom.  It was that person dealing with issues at home that was dealing with those, while still trying to get their education. 

So we targeted those.  And we managed to give approximately 12 scholarships before I ran out of money.  But now, we are reviving that scholarship, and we‘re expanding it to now include high school seniors. 

We had originally just targeted for Albany State, which was her alma mater.  Now, we‘ll be expanding it so that students who want to attend other universities will also qualify. 

COSBY:  What a great tribute.  What a great tribute to a loving wife, clearly, and also a loving mother, too.  And if anyone wants to donate, make sure that they contact the university.  What a great way to remember her, both of you.  Thank you very much for being with us. 

STUBBS:  No problem. 

HAWTHORNE:  You‘re welcome. 

COSBY:  Thank you very much. 

And still ahead, what turned a seemingly normal guy into a killer?  I‘ll ask Rudolph‘s former sister-in-law, LIVE & DIRECT next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID NAHMIAS, U.S. ATTORNEY:  One thing that there was virtually no evidence of is that he had expressed an opinion on abortion, much less a condemnation that he now claims was his motivation. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Prosecutors say homegrown terrorist Eric Rudolph was motivated by hate and not politics.  And joining us now is someone who has a special insight into the mind of this killer, Eric Rudolph‘s former sister-in-law, Deborah Rudolph, who helped the FBI profile him.  And she joins us live. 

Deborah, why do you think he targeted abortion clinics then? 

DEBORAH RUDOLPH, ERIC RUDOLPH‘S FMR. SISTER-IN-LAW:  I think it was his white separatist views.  He didn‘t—he thought that the majority of abortions performed in the United States were performed on white women and that we would eventually become a minority, in lieu of a majority. 

COSBY:  Oh, that‘s—so it was more of a racist view than a religious view.  You know, you profiled him.  I‘ll tell you, this takes a lot of guts.  You know, you profiled him for the FBI, did a really commendable thing. 

RUDOLPH:  Yes, thank you. 

COSBY:  When did you know that this man who you knew had it in him to kill people? 

RUDOLPH:  Well, I never knew he had it in him to kill people.  He was always an animated person.  You know, he was a wayward—a lost sheep, you know?  Now that I‘m a Christian, I can see the things that went wrong in that family.  You know, they didn‘t stand, you know, on Christ‘s foundation, on the Lord‘s foundation. 

COSBY:  Tell us about some of the conversations at the dinner table. 

And I want to show some of the old pictures.  Here are some old pictures.  It looks like an everyday family, but, apparently, the conversation was pretty interesting, right, Deborah? 

RUDOLPH:  Yes, it was.  And not everyone in the family shares, you know, the views.  But there would be talks about, you know, their anti-government views, against the IRS, the Social Security number being a way to track you, it‘s Big Brother, the TV being the electric Jew, there were diverse subjects. 

COSBY:  That‘s amazing.  We‘re looking at a young picture.  This is a young Eric Robert Rudolph.  He was, what, about 17?

RUDOLPH:  About 17 or 18, yes. 

COSBY:  And do you think this affected him, hearing this talk at the dinner table, from some people close to him, including his mother, right? 

RUDOLPH:  Right.  But I‘ll tell what you affected Eric the most, is Pat‘s search for the church.  She always wanted to find that church that shared her views, instead of putting that blind faith in the Lord and leading her sons in the right direction, in the path of Christ, that‘s where it went wrong. 

When you don‘t do that, we don‘t share that commitment with your children, this is what happens.  And this is what my book is about.  I‘m doing a book with Larry Garrison of SilverCreek Productions. 

And I‘m hoping it‘s going to be a spiritual—not only the insight with Eric, but a spiritual journey, that everyone needs to take. 

COSBY:  And it‘s really fascinating. 

Two seconds, literally.  I understand, also, that you found out from the authorities, what, his license was found?  Literally 10 seconds, Deborah.

RUDOLPH:  OK.  His license was found.  And it had my address in Tennessee on it, which led them to me, and which led me to work with the FBI profiling Eric. 

COSBY:  Really incredible stuff.  And we applaud you for coming forward.  And thanks for being with us tonight, Deborah, very much.

RUDOLPH:  Thank you so much.  God bless you, Rita. 

COSBY:  Good luck.  And good luck on your book.  Thank you so much.

RUDOLPH:  Thank you. 

COSBY:  And coming up tomorrow night, you thought you had seen the last of Robert Blake.  Well, we‘ve got the explosive deposition tapes where he‘s being questioned about his ex-wife‘s death.  Only one show has them, and you‘re going to see them right here, all tomorrow night, right here on the show, LIVE & DIRECT. 

And that does it for me tonight.  An interesting show, but stay tuned.  Don‘t touch that dial.  “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” starts right now, with my pal, Joe—Joe?

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”:  Hey, thanks a lot, Rita.  Greatly appreciate it.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END   

Content and programming copyright 2005 NBC.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED.  Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon NBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

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