updated 8/24/2005 10:40:38 AM ET 2005-08-24T14:40:38

Guests: Kathleen Padden, Frank Liversedge, Paul Ciolino, Jossy Mansur, Art

Wood, Kevin Miles, Ben Presson, Hubert Propst, Bertha Propst, Eric Dubin,

John Urquhart, Misty Cooper, Steve Elwell, Jennifer Elwell, Jayne

Weintraub, Harvey Levin, Stacey Honowitz

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Right now, everyone, LIVE AND DIRECT, shocking new information in the case of Olivia Newton-John‘s missing boyfriend.  He vanished off a fishing boat.  She‘s pleading for help in finding him, but it appears that some people may already be giving up and—get this—moving his stuff out.

Joining me now LIVE AND DIRECT is Patrick McDermott‘s neighbor, Kathleen Padden.  Kathleen, have you seen any activity around his home?

KATHLEEN PADDEN, PATRICK MCDERMOTT‘S NEIGHBOR:  Yes, I have.  There‘s been quite a few of the studios that have been coming in and out and taking pictures and so forth and trying to get some information.  I‘ve seen people coming in, but as far as noticing or recognizing them, no, I don‘t.  And I haven‘t...

COSBY:  Does it look like (INAUDIBLE) moving anything out?  Because what we‘re hearing is the ex-wife is actually moving things out of his home.  Have you heard anything or seen anything like that?

PADDEN:  No, I haven‘t.  I haven‘t seen anything like that.  It‘s all I‘ve seen is a lot of the studios coming in, and a lot of the neighbors just looking and wondering what‘s going on.  As I go by, and I go by there quite often because I‘m on neighborhood watch, and there isn‘t any—any clutter of mail.  There‘s nothing of clutter of newspapers or anything like there‘s somebody there that‘s collecting the mail, collecting the newspapers and keeping things looking good.

COSBY:  Do you know who that is?  Do you know who‘s doing that, Kathleen?

PADDEN:  I haven‘t got a clue.  It‘s just I go by there, and it‘s already done.

COSBY:  Quick question for you, too.  Have you seen anything about any tensions in the relationship with the ex-wife and with Patrick?  I understand that Patrick may have been concerned about her keeping his son away.

PADDEN:  When Chance (ph) is there, I know that Patrick just is right there with his son and enjoying every bit of time that he does have with Chance.  I don‘t know his wife, so I don‘t know just exactly what the problem was.  I‘ve met Olivia a few times, seen her and talked with her, but nothing, you know, to be able to see what his former life was like with his ex-wife.

COSBY:  And we were just looking at some pictures of his ex-wife a little bit ago.  There she is right there, Yvette Nipar.  But Olivia you mentioned.  What kind of relationship did he have with Olivia?  Because everyone thinks it‘s strange.  They dated for nine years and yet she didn‘t report him missing for a number of days.

PADDEN:  It seems like—trying to understand, they—there was some kind of family gathering.  And Patrick is a very quiet and—person.  He likes his privacy.  And I found it so.  And I don‘t notice anything with Olivia.  I haven‘t seen her there.  I don‘t know—I haven‘t seen her there lately.

COSBY:  But it sounds like they had a good relationship and you saw them very often together.

PADDEN:  I think so.  I think so.  They were—they—I think they were very much in love.

COSBY:  All right, Kathleen...

PADDEN:  They are very much in love.

COSBY:  Thank you.  And of course, we—I like that way that you used “are” because we hope for his safe return.  Thank you very much.  I appreciate it.

PADDEN:  You‘re welcome.

COSBY:  And we‘re learning some new details about Patrick‘s trip that may raise more questions than they answer.  We‘re joined now by Frank Liversedge, who‘s the manager of the 22nd Street Landing company.  That‘s the company that Patrick rented from for the overnight fishing trip.  Frank, there are some reports that Patrick paid for food near the end of the trip, that there‘s some receipt.  Is that true?

FRANK LIVERSEDGE, 22ND STREET LANDING:  Yes.

COSBY:  It is?  And tell us at what time into the trip?  Is that at the very end of the trip?  Like, how far along in the trip had he had to have gone to get this receipt?

LIVERSEDGE:  Well, he wasn‘t actually issued a receipt.  There is a document that states that at a point three miles from the San Pedro lighthouse, some time after that, he went into the galley and paid for his food on the boat.

COSBY:  OK, so that was a bit into the trip.  In other words, he was present on that boat at that point.

LIVERSEDGE:  Yes, that‘s three miles from the lighthouse.  That‘s approximately 45 minutes to an hour from the dock.

COSBY:  OK.  And now, I understand also, Frank, that he was talking to other passengers, complaining about his ex-wife.  Tell us about that.

LIVERSEDGE:  I can‘t tell you about that.  I really don‘t know what was on the depositions.  Some of the people that I talked to indicated yes, but I didn‘t get statements from them.  I told them to tell the Coast Guard everything they knew.

COSBY:  What did they tell you, though?  Just give us sort of a general sense, Frank.

LIVERSEDGE:  Just general complaints that guys have about their wives, ex-wives and stuff like that.  I really didn‘t pay much attention to it because it‘s generally the things guys talk about when they‘re alone on a boat.

COSBY:  Now, the ex-wife showed up at your place after he disappeared. 

What was her demeanor?

LIVERSEDGE:  Well, she seemed very upset.

COSBY:  She did?  Unusually upset?

LIVERSEDGE:  Well, she just seemed upset, yes.

COSBY:  And was it upset because he was missing, or did you get a sense that there was something else to this?

LIVERSEDGE:  I didn‘t get a sense of anything other than she was upset and was trying to seek information about him.

COSBY:  And about his whereabouts, I would assume, right?

LIVERSEDGE:  Yes.

COSBY:  Frank, what was the demeanor of him on the boat?  What did the crew members sort of—was he talkative, was he quiet?  What seemed to be sort of the way he was acting?

LIVERSEDGE:  Most of the crew has no recollection of him.  The period of time that expired between the time he was on the boat and the time we were asked about him, no one remembers much about him.  Someone probably would remember that he was on the boat, but nothing happened on the boat to make anyone remember him.

COSBY:  OK.  And I also understand that he was fairly quiet and fairly low-key.  You know, Frank, as you look at all these things—and you have a great perspective because you know a lot of the key players in this operation and what may have happened to him—what do you suspect went down?

LIVERSEDGE:  What I do suspect?  I—I firmly believe that Patrick McDermott got off of the Freedom at 22nd Street Landing, and after that, I don‘t know what happened to him.

COSBY:  But you do believe he got off?

LIVERSEDGE:  That‘s my belief, yes.

COSBY:  Even though his wallet was there and his passport was there?

LIVERSEDGE:  It doesn‘t matter.  It‘s just that I do this for a living.  I‘ve been on this ocean for a long time.  I‘ve been on that boat a million times.  I know exactly what takes place on that boat.  He couldn‘t have fallen overboard or jumped overboard without being seen from the time he paid his galley bill.  So I have to assume that he got off the boat.  When some of the—some of the passengers told me that they‘re pretty sure they saw him getting off the boat, then that confirms everything I know, that he got off of the boat.  What happened to him then, I don‘t know.

COSBY:  There‘s a lot of questions.  Frank, thank you very much for your perspective.

And joining me now is private eye and former homicide detective Paul Ciolino.  Paul, you just heard what Frank said.  He‘s pretty adamant.  He believes that between eyewitness accounts seeing Mr. McDermott got off the boat, between the fact that now we know he paid this galley fee so close to the departure, he believes he got off the boat.  Do you?

PAUL CIOLINO, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR/FORMER DETECTIVE:  Yes, Rita.  My experience with these cases—I‘ve had a number of them over the years—these guys are walking away from something.  You need to know a lot more about this guy‘s life than just what we‘re hearing right now.  There‘s always money problems or gambling problems behind these issues all the time.

And I would say two words: Las Vegas, OK?  Look in Las Vegas.  He‘s probably hanging out there, if he‘s got a gambling problem or a money problem.  I think he walked off the boat.  I don‘t think he was murdered or anything else.  No one sounded the alarm.  No one‘s that upset when he turns up missing.  I think the first time anyone starts reporting him is July 6, six days later.

COSBY:  Yes, in fact, let‘s show...

CIOLINO:  And that‘s the ex-wife.

COSBY:  Let‘s show the timeline if we could, Paul, because I think you hit it right on the head.  I find that stunning.  And I tried to hit that up with the neighbor.  You know, here he dated—you know, he was dating Olivia nine years, obviously still had some relationship with the ex-wife.  They have a child.  And yet nobody‘s reporting this guy missing.  It‘s an overnight trip.  Isn‘t that stunning?

CIOLINO:  Yes, I‘m not sure Mrs. Kravitz (SIC) is the best source of information there.  But Olivia‘s not reporting him missing.  His ex-wife is probably missing a child support check.  That‘s why she‘s ticked off.  And you know, I think he walked away, and I think he‘s going to turn up in the next day or two.  And if he‘s a private and personal guy, I bet he‘s just ecstatic about all this!

COSBY:  Well, let‘s hope he‘s not, but let‘s hope he gets back safe and sound.  Paul, thank you very much.  We appreciate it.

And now to the other big search for a missing person, the Natalee Holloway case.  NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski is LIVE AND DIRECT now from Aruba with an interview that you can only see here.

Michelle, we‘ve heard that the FBI is getting some information from a lot of sources, including psychics.  Tell us about that, Michelle.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  That‘s right.  As the FBI gathers information on this case—it is helping the investigation, it‘s working on it from the United States, as well—they turn over that information to prosecutors and investigators here.  Now, some of that information includes tips and referrals, they say, from all kinds of sorts.  And some of those do include psychics.

We saw two of those tips today.  The FBI says it‘s just standard.  When they get information, when people refer them to sources and tips, they turn that over to whoever is investigating the case.  It‘s not seen as a recommendation to act on psychics‘ tips.  Still, to see those tips from psychics actually in the case file did not sit well with a defense attorney.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOSINSKI:  How does your client feel about Joran Van Der Sloot today?

DAVID KOCK, SATISH KALPOE‘S ATTORNEY:  Look, let me tell you that Van Der Sloot changed in one of his many statements.  He leaned (ph) the brothers, all of a sudden.  So at that moment, really, they were mad at him that he falsely accused them.  So (INAUDIBLE) the beginning, upon his request, we‘ve been trying to help him (INAUDIBLE)

KOSINSKI:  Do they feel like he did something to this girl, that he tried to bring them...

KOCK:  You know, that I think that‘s a very human and logical assumption, but not that it has any basis in fact.  And of course, we see as part of the (INAUDIBLE) go forward (INAUDIBLE) the FBI.  And then one of the things that caught our attention is that, you know, the FBI, for example, points out that there have been some psychics in the United States calling in different information about dreams, about (INAUDIBLE) contacts with the missing person and knew what happened and they should be searching here or searching there.  I mean, if you start getting (INAUDIBLE) guided by certain things like that, you know, then we know the investigation is going nowhere.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOSINSKI:  We know in the United States, investigators do use psychics pretty often to help investigate cases and to use as a source.  Hey, maybe they have some information.  Well, in this country, it is not standard to use psychics as part of the investigation.  Defense attorneys say it‘s a sad day for justice here if they start doing that.  They really don‘t believe in doing that as part of a serious case.  And they say, Hey, if this is going to be in the body of the case file, they claim that it‘s, of course, their belief that there‘s just very little hard evidence to go on here and very little to go on against the suspects—Rita.

COSBY:  Very interesting, Michelle.  Keep us posted and see if we can get that confirmed that they are playing a role.  We appreciate it very much.

And everybody, that‘s not the only thing that we have uncovered in Aruba.  Up next: We‘ve learned about a woman that could turn the whole investigation on its head.  And that‘s just the beginning of what‘s coming your way tonight.  Take a look.

Coming up, a shocking twist in the search for a missing model.  Do police know more than what they‘re saying in the search for Julie Popovich?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  We have a person of interest that we‘re looking at.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And Robert Blake caught on tape, an exclusive look behind closed doors, his deposition as he casually talked about finding his dead wife‘s body.  You‘ll only see it here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT BLAKE, ACTOR:  I shook her.  I (INAUDIBLE) her (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And why does this sex offender say he should be allowed to live in your neighborhood?  Does it matter who he had sex with?  You‘ll hear what he‘s got to say coming up LIVE AND DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  News out of Aruba tonight, and the news is not good for the main suspect in the Natalee Holloway case.  Joran Van Der Sloot‘s defense attorneys were denied access to the prosecution‘s records.  This is the third time his lawyers have been turned down in court.  But that may be the least of his worries.

Also news tonight on the development that you saw here first right on last night‘s show.  An Aruban attorney says a young woman will tell prosecutors soon that she was drugged and raped by Joran Van Der Sloot.  LIVE AND DIRECT now, private investigator Art Wood, who broke the news for us, and also Jossy Mansur from “Diario” newspaper.  Of course, his paper reported it.  The attorney for the girl spoke exclusively with the paper in today‘s edition.

Jossy, I have to ask, because you guys have been out front on this story from the very, very beginning, when do you believe this woman is going to come public with her claim and actually go to prosecutors?

JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, “DIARIO”:  That I have no idea.  That depends on what her lawyer will recommend to her, the advice she will give her.  But I‘m sure she is going to put in a complaint against Joran.

COSBY:  And do you believe, Jossy, that she‘s doing it now—why is she talking now?  Is it because the clock is ticking with the September 4 deadline?

MANSUR:  No, I don‘t think it has anything to do with it.  This is a small, community.  It‘s a conservative community.  I don‘t think that parents, as well as young girls, would like their daughters or the daughters themselves to come and admit to having been sexually harassed or sexually assaulted or whatever.  You know, there‘s a little bit of shame and self-consciousness involved.  That‘s why she waited so long.  But I think that she came to realize that the longer she kept that to herself, the worse it would be for herself also.  So she decided to come forth and talk about it openly to her lawyer and then go to the police and give them a complaint.

COSBY:  And Art, I understand that she also has two other friends who are basically alleging the same thing, is that right?

MANSUR:  That is correct.  They‘re both in the same position.  Those haven‘t come forward yet.  I think it‘s going to take them a little more time to do so, but perhaps they will follow suit after this girl finishes her complaint.

COSBY:  And let me go...

ART WOOD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Rita, basically, the...

COSBY:  Yes, go ahead, Art.

WOOD:  Basically, the attorney advised me that the girl told her that her friends are, at this point, unwilling to come forward.  But I urge anybody that‘s been assaulted by anybody in Aruba to come forward.  It‘s—those are crimes, and somebody needs to pay the price for those crimes.

COSBY:  You bet.  And Art, as an investigator—you‘re a seasoned investigator—don‘t you think that this could also help push this case open, if, indeed, these allegations are true?  If they come forward, these allegations are true—there‘s a lot of if‘s there, but if it gets to the next level, that could certainly help this case push forward, correct?

WOOD:  Oh, absolutely.  As a matter of fact, we believe that the same thing happened to Natalee.  I mean, there‘s been a theory of that all along in this case.  Let me tell you something else, Rita.  This girl hasn‘t exactly been in hiding.  She has told her story to the child advocate here in Aruba.  So a statement from this girl has been taken by authorities.

COSBY:  So it looks like it is moving forward, guys, both.  And you think we‘re going to hear, what, a matter of days, do you think?

WOOD:  I think it‘s quite possible that we would hear in a matter of days.  I don‘t know what the legalities they have to work out.  Her attorney—her only concern is protecting the identity of this courageous young woman, who is still a minor.

COSBY:  You bet.  And we do applaud her.  And of course, anyone else who has information does need to come forward.  Guys, good job, both of you.  We‘ll talk with you both soon.  Thank you very much.

And late developments tonight for another missing woman, a young model who vanished from a college bar.  Late today, officials announced that they are raising the reward for help finding Julie Popovich.  They confirmed what we told you last night, that they do have a person of interest.  Remember, we broke that last night.  But they are not saying who or what they think happened the night that she vanished.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Witnesses have told police that she was last seen leaving the bar with a man she may have known.  And this is very unusual, according to the family, for this to have happened, that she is just totally outside of her normal course of behavior.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Well, with me now is Kevin Miles with the Central Ohio Crime Stoppers.  And also with us is the editor of the Ohio State newspaper, Ben Presson.

Kevin, let me go to you first.  Who is this person or persons of interest?  Can you describe what kind of person they‘re looking for?

KEVIN MILES, CENTRAL OHIO CRIME STOPPERS:  You know, I really don‘t know.  All we do is collect information for the police.  What you just heard is what they announced at the press conference, and I don‘t know who that is.  They have not given me any information at all.

COSBY:  They‘ve given a basic description, though, right?  Can you just kind of walk us through on the description and why they think that foul play is involved?

MILES:  Well, I‘m not sure if they agree (INAUDIBLE) foul play.  I think what they think is that she definitely left against her will on it, and we‘re still hoping for good results on this.  The man has been described—and this has been on the media—I‘m not describing it from the police but what‘s been on the media is that it was a light-skinned—or excuse me, a dark-skinned white male that she might have been with at the bar that night.

COSBY:  And Ben, you‘ve been in touch with her boyfriend.  What did he say to you?  I‘ve had—they‘re saying you‘ve had some sort of communication, right?

MILES:  I‘ve been in touch with the family themselves.  And of course, they‘re very devastated about what‘s happened and about their daughter and wanting her safe return on it.  And they‘re a very good family.  She seems like a very good young person.  And hopefully, we can do that for them.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  Ben Presson, you‘ve been in touch, actually, with the boyfriend.  Tell us about that, as we‘re looking at some pictures of the family.

BEN PRESSON, OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY STUDENT PAPER:  Well, Rita, I can‘t talk about the ongoing investigation.  However, I can tell you, when I talked to the boyfriend, it was very briefly.  And he just said that his basic demeanor was, you know, he‘s doing OK as he possibly can right now.  He‘s keeping hope.  And that‘s about all he said.  He was very brief, and he was respecting the wishes of the authorities that he not speak about the case.

COSBY:  Again, I understand that a lot of her friends are being told the same thing, Ben.  Why do you think that‘s the case?

PRESSON:  Well, I can‘t comment on the case itself, but I think it‘s important in a case like this, when, you know—Kevin just said that although it hasn‘t been reported as a homicide yet, or there has been no intention of, say, foul play, I think it‘s important that a lot of the facts are kept so they can keep a clear head when they‘re investigating this kind of thing, so that there‘s not a lot of jumbling around of the facts, so that they can keep pressing forward with the investigation.

COSBY:  And real quick, Kevin, I understand that there have been a couple of adults missing in that area.  Do you think that that‘s tied to this?

MILES:  You know, we don‘t know.  We have a young man by the name of Tony Luzio (ph) who‘s been missing since July the 4th.  If you go to Ohiomissingadults.com—Ohiomissingadults.com—we have over 40 missing adults in the state of Ohio logged on that Web site.  So Julie is not the only one.  We are very thankful for the $50,000 reward that we were able to get from a private individual in Pennsylvania, and who‘s actually put up money for Natalee Holloway and Latoyia Figueroa, the woman out of Pennsylvania that was just...

COSBY:  Yes, the Figueroa case.

MILES:  Yes.

COSBY:  Exactly.  And by the way, we are showing that, if anyone does have any information to make sure you call the Crime Stoppers.  And both of you, thank you.  Please keep us posted on the case, again, as we‘re looking at a picture of Julie with the number, too.  And good job, both of you.  Keep us posted.

MILES:  Thank you for your help.

PRESSON:  Thank you.

COSBY:  Thank you.  You‘re welcome.

And meantime, a desperate Missouri family is hoping more reward money in their case will help them find their missing pregnant daughter.  Amanda Jones was due to give birth this week, and we‘ve been following her disappearance from the very beginning.

We‘re once again joined by Amanda‘s parents, Hubert and also Bertha Propst.  Hubert, I got to ask you, how do you feel, first of all?  It‘s a $100,000 reward.  The fact that someone has come forward, that‘s got to make you feel good that people care this much.

HUBERT PROPST, MISSING WOMAN‘S FATHER:  It makes me feel very happy and grateful to the person who has donated the money for the return of my daughter.

COSBY:  You bet.  And Bertha, do you hope, certainly, that that inspires someone?  Because that is a lot of money.

HUBERT PROPST:  Yes, it is.

BERTHA PROPST, MISSING WOMAN‘S MOTHER:  Yes, it is a lot of money, and I‘m just hoping that it will give somebody the courage to come forward.

COSBY:  Yes, I certainly hope so, too.  Let‘s talk about—I know that there was, you know, a conference today, a news conference today.  The father of Amanda‘s unborn child was not there.  Do you still think there‘s something questionable, something sort of fishy?  You have I talked about this.  Amanda—Bertha?

BERTHA PROPST:  I‘m sorry.  Yes, he was not there.  I can‘t say—you know, I don‘t want to accuse anybody, but I—you know, he‘s the last person who‘s seen my daughter, so I do feel that he‘s got information or he knows where she‘s at or he knows what happened.

COSBY:  And he‘s got a girlfriend.  And I also understand he‘s recently hired a lawyer, is that correct, Bertha?

BERTHA PROPST:  That is correct, and he‘s only speaking through his lawyer.

COSBY:  Have you asked him face to face as a mother, Do you have any information?  Have you pleaded with him?

BERTHA PROPST:  I have never seen him, no.

COSBY:  You have not?  And is that...

PROPST:  I have never met him.

COSBY:  Have you tried to reach out to him at all or...

PROPST:  No, I haven‘t.  I just talked to him the day that she disappeared.

COSBY:  And Hubert, let me ask you, you know, yesterday was one of the due dates for your daughter.  We don‘t know if she had the baby, and you haven‘t heard any reports, is that right?

HUBERT PROPST:  Correct.

COSBY:  What‘s keeping you going?  I‘m sure it‘s been so tough as time goes by.

HUBERT PROPST:  My faith in God, and my church has been very helpful in this matter.

COSBY:  And I know there‘s a lot of people supporting both of you.  And I want to just put that face up, this beautiful face of your daughter up here on the screen again, and also information.

HUBERT PROPST:

COSBY:  Anyone—if anyone, of course, has any information about Amanda‘s disappearance at all in any shape or form, please make sure that you call the Jefferson County, Missouri, sheriff‘s department.  The number on the screen is 636-797-5515.  And I hope that family gets some good answers soon.

BERTHA PROPST:  Thank you.

COSBY:  And coming up, everybody: A convicted sex offender accused of butchering a family and kidnapping two children has his day in court.  I know other cops want to get their hands on him for other possible child murders across the country.

And Robert Blake on tape, talking about his murdered wife.  It‘s a Robert Blake like you have never seen him.  It‘s a LIVE AND DIRECT exclusive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT BLAKE, ACTOR:  I shook her.  I saw the blood on her nose, and I went for help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Tonight, a LIVE & DIRECT exclusive.  Robert Blake on video calmly talking about the night that his wife was shot to death, even casually talking about finding Bonnie Lee Bakley‘s body. 

He was acquitted of the crime.  But now Bakley‘s family is suing him, saying he‘s still responsible.  His deposition in the case was recorded, and only we have the tapes.  Watch how casually he talks about finding her dead in the car. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC DUBIN, BAKLEY FAMILY ATTORNEY:  Did you say anything to her during that time? 

ROBERT BLAKE, ACTOR:  Yes, as I was getting in and reaching down for the keys, I said something like, “Wake up, toots.”

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Well, LIVE & DIRECT from Los Angeles, the man asking the questions in this exclusive video, Eric Dubin.  He‘s the Bakley family attorney. 

Eric, first of all tell us—the civil trial is starting, what, tomorrow, or it‘s starting very soon? 

DUBIN:  Well, tomorrow we do all the pretrial motions and everything. 

And then Monday, we have 75 jurors ready to be picked. 

COSBY:  Why do you think it‘s going to be different?  Because, obviously, in the criminal case, he was acquitted.  Why do you think you‘re going to be able to be successful in the civil case? 

DUBIN:  Well, in a sentence, putting Robert Blake on the stand.  You know, if the prosecutors or the detectives had the opportunity that I had to question him for 20 hours and get the answers that I got, I think he‘d be in prison right now, Rita. 

COSBY:  He seems very nonchalant.  I want to show another clip if I could right away. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLAKE:  I don‘t know whether she was seriously hurt or not.  I couldn‘t rouse her.  First, I thought she was sleeping.  I shook her.  I saw the blood on her nose, and I went for help. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Are you surprised at sort of the lack of emotion, or is that maybe that he‘s just been traumatized and he‘s sort of been through this over and over again, Eric? 

DUBIN:  I just think he‘s a bad actor, Rita.  He did this crime.  You know, it‘s ironic that we‘re starting this week.  Today, Holly is having a baby.  Bonnie would have been a grandmother today.  Everybody‘s at the hospital right now back in Tennessee. 

She was a real person.  She didn‘t deserve to die.  And I‘m telling you right now, I‘m coming swinging.  And I plan on proving he did this crime. 

COSBY:  Yes.  And some of his answers are kind of evasive, too, very interesting.  I want to show sort of an unusual exchange.  Here we go. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLAKE:  I think I told the police, and I think I‘ve told you, I saw one old man walking away from us. 

DUBIN:  I know.  I‘m just saying, did you see anybody throw anything in the dumpster? 

BLAKE:  I‘ll say it again.  We can dance all night if you want to, Charley. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And of course, he‘s calling you, Charley, but that‘s sort of a slogan.  What is he eating, which I think is astounding?  This is a legal proceeding.  What is he chewing on, Eric? 

DUBIN:  Some kind of power bar.  He called me a lot worse than Charley.  It was definitely an R-rated deposition, Rita. 

COSBY:  What did he call you, without saying any swear words on the air? 

DUBIN:  Oh, it was very graphic.  That‘s the way he talks.  And it seems to be the way he carries himself.  We‘ll see if it plays in front of the jury.  His attorney for that matter is very angry, as well.  So this should be quite the show.

COSBY:  And, in fact, there were some tense moments, too, that we saw between you and also he and his attorney.  Let me show you that example.  I think it‘s quite interesting. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He doesn‘t know when the murder took place. 

(CROSSTALK)

DUBIN:  Peter, please don‘t testify for your client.  He‘s already

answered the question

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes, ask...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Ask a question that‘s intelligible, for a starter. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  That‘s quite a heated deposition.  Is that unlike almost anything you‘ve experienced, Eric? 

DUBIN:  No, you know what?  It‘s almost like being a middle lineman in the NFL.  I mean, when they whistle in a play, it gets ugly down there, and after we shake hands and go home. 

COSBY:  That was his attorney, right?  That was his attorney that slammed his arm, his hand down on the desk? 

DUBIN:  It‘s gotten much worse in that in those depositions.  It‘s been pretty heated between all of us.  But, you know, the stakes are high.  A mother of four was murdered.  So it‘s all about the jury trial at this point.  All that‘s in the past.

COSBY:  What do you plan to do?  Just like in the case of sort of O.J.  Simpson, when you look at civil cases, you look at the money trial.  Robert Blake is claiming he has no money.  Is there anything to go after? 

DUBIN:  Oh, yes.  You know, and implied in the question is that I‘m going to win.  And I haven‘t won anything yet.  But assuming I can convince this jury he did it—which I‘m very confident I can.  I‘m going to try my best doing—there‘s money to collect.  And these children will be taken care of.  I‘ll give it all my trying. 

COSBY:  Now, can you bring in—also, you‘ll going to bring in a parade of witnesses.  His first wife—and this just came out recently—is claiming also that he also tried to kill her and even sort of tried to stage it like it was Charles Manson‘s followers, because she‘s an actress.  Are you going to be able to bring her in and others?

DUBIN:  You know, I hope so.  It‘s up to Judge Shackter (ph) what comes in and what doesn‘t.  But almost identical to what happened with Bonnie happened with Blake‘s first wife, the abuse, the attempted murders, all over custody of children, how he shot a gun at her, he hired a hit man to kill her, he beat her unconscious. 

I mean, really, really horrible person we‘re talking about.  And I hate to say that.  I know there‘s a lot of fans out there.  But after three years, I can tell that you I‘m pursuing the right person and I‘ll be ready. 

COSBY:  Well, we‘re going to be watching, Eric.  Thanks very much for being here.  We appreciate it. 

And, everybody, we invited Robert Blake and his attorney on the show tonight.  They declined, but we did get this statement:  “Peter Ezzell, who is Mr. Blake‘s attorney, believes that it‘s inappropriate, on the eve of trial, to further sensationalize the civil case, making it even more difficult to select a neutral jury panel.”

That, of course is the statement from Robert Blake‘s attorney. 

And coming up, we have a lot more ahead.  Is the man accused of slaughtering a family responsible for killing children across the country?  The aunt of one of his alleged victims saw him in court and says he‘s a monster.  And she joins me LIVE & DIRECT. 

And why is a town telling this family that they‘re not welcome?  It all has to do with who the father had sex with.  Find out all about it, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Late tonight, we have learned that a convicted sex offender and accused killer could face the death penalty, if he‘s found guilty of a new heinous crime.  Joseph Duncan had his first hearing today since being arrested for killing most of a family in Idaho. 

Cops say he killed Brenda Groene, one of her sons, and also her boyfriend, then abducted two of her other children, Dylan and Shasta.  They say he also killed Dylan, as well.  Police found his remains after Duncan was arrested. 

And we‘re joined now on the phone by the children‘s aunt, Misty Cooper, who was in court today.

Misty, how tough was it to be there?  And we just heard, just about an hour ago, that he essentially didn‘t enter a plea.  So a plea of not guilty stands. 

MISTY COOPER, AUNT OF DYLAN AND SHASTA GROENE:  Yes.  Yes. 

COSBY:  How tough was it for you to be there and look at this monster who did this to people you love? 

COOPER:  It was one of the toughest things I‘ve ever had to do, was to face him and to see him. 

COSBY:  What are your impressions of Joseph Duncan?  Is there any doubt in your mind of what he did? 

COOPER:  No, I believe that he did it and I believe that he is a very hateful man. 

COSBY:  You know, now prosecutors announced also that they will seek the ultimate punishment, that they‘re going to seek the death penalty in this case, Misty.  Are you happy?  Do you believe that‘s the appropriate punishment for this man? 

COOPER:  Yes, I do.  I believe he does deserve the death penalty, because then I would—you know, the family and the rest, you know, and me and the rest of us would know he‘d never do anything to another child again. 

COSBY:  And how is Shasta doing, after surviving just this horrible ordeal? 

COOPER:  She‘s doing about the best that could be expected right now. 

COSBY:  Yes, how‘s she spending her time?  And has she talked about what happened to her? 

COOPER:  With the family or anything, she has not talked about it.  And we don‘t talk about it with her.  So we just kind of leave that kind of in the past and move on from there. 

COSBY:  And the family‘s doing OK? 

COOPER:  They‘re doing about the best that what could be expected right now.  We have our ups and downs. 

COSBY:  Misty, I cannot imagine.  And please tell everybody our prayers are with them and, of course, with all of you.  And it sounds like they‘re going to go after this guy with the ultimate crime, which is what a lot of people believe he deserves. 

Thank you, Misty, very much. 

COOPER:  Thank you. 

COSBY:  Thank you. 

And investigators say that Joseph Duncan could be involved in a string of other kidnappings and murders across the country.  He‘s tied by one fingerprint to the 1997 abduction and murder of 10-year-old Anthony Martinez in California.  And he‘s also a person of interest in the 1996 murders of two sisters near Seattle. 

Joining us now is Sergeant John Urquhart.  He‘s involved with the Washington State investigation. 

Now, Sergeant, I‘ve got to ask you, I‘ve seen some quotes from you earlier.  And it says that there was something that was very interesting coming from Duncan.  Did he reveal something to you, or it was information, sort of evidence, that came your way to tie him to the case in your state? 

SGT. JOHN URQUHART, INVESTIGATING SEATTLE MURDERS:  Well, one of the local newspapers here, Rita, the “Seattle Post-Intelligencer” reported last week that he had confessed.  And they cited unnamed federal law enforcement sources.  And we don‘t believe that‘s the truth. 

He has not confessed to us, certainly.  As far as we know, he has not confessed to the FBI.  That being said...

COSBY:  Yes, what appears to be the tie then, sir? 

URQUHART:  Well, he has provided some information that shows that he knows or has information on the crime.  That doesn‘t necessarily mean that he did it. 

But he‘s absolutely a person of interest.  And we are really, really looking at him very in-depth to find out if he may be our suspect. 

COSBY:  He also lived in the area, is that correct? 

URQUHART:  He did.  He lived very close to where the girls disappeared.  He also worked in the city where their bodies were found.  So, circumstantially, obviously, that makes him really pretty interesting. 

What we need to do, though, is find out if he was there when these girls disappeared or whether he was in prison somewhere else. 

COSBY:  And real briefly, sir, this is just such a horrible case.  These two girls went missing.  And what, their bodies showed up, what, more than a year later, correct? 

URQUHART:  Almost two years later, yes. 

COSBY:  And what happened to them?  Do we know what happened? 

URQUHART:  No, we do not have a cause of death.  We know they died from homicidal violence.  But after two years, the medical examiner‘s office was not able to conclusively say how they died. 

COSBY:  And how long, sir, until you think you can tie Duncan to the case?  Is it a ways away? 

URQUHART:  Well, we really don‘t know.  The good news is, we‘re in no hurry.  We know he‘s not going anywhere.  He‘s tied up in Idaho for quite some time.  So that means we can take our time, we can do it right, and try to see if we have any evidence that‘s going to link him to these crimes. 

COSBY:  Sergeant, thank you very much.  We appreciate it. 

URQUHART:  Thank you, Rita. 

COSBY:  And coming up, everybody, this man says that the laws were meant to keep people like Joseph Duncan away from kids.  Are they hurting his family, and why, because of who he had sex with?  You‘re going to hear his story.  That‘s coming up next. 

And later, another family‘s crisis of sorts.  Details behind the end of Brad and Jennifer.  We‘ve got some new details.  That‘s coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Would you want a registered sex offender living in your neighborhood?  A lot of towns say no, and they‘re banning them. 

Steve Elwell is a registered sex offender.  His crime was having sex with a 16-year-old female student.  He lost his job and he even served time.  But now that he‘s out, he wants to move to a bigger house, but the law says he can‘t do that.  He and his wife, Jennifer, are with us tonight. 

Steve, first of all, how do you feel as being labeled as a sex offender? 

STEVE ELWELL, REGISTERED SEX OFFENDER:  Well, first—you know, I think of a sex offender and I think of a person lurking behind bushes, luring little kids into cars, and taking advantage of them, to the point where, you know, something cruel and unusual might happen to them. 

You know, that‘s why they came up with a tiering system.  And, you know, being labeled a sex offender... 

COSBY:  And I think you‘re level one, and Joseph Duncan, who we were just talking about is a level three.  But, Steve, nonetheless, you were a teacher.  You violated sort of a sacred bond.  You had sex with a 16-year-old student.  Aren‘t you ashamed of what you did? 

S. ELWELL:  See, that‘s not what we‘re here to talk about.  We‘re here to educate the public about what the differences are and that it‘s unfair to be grouped along with somebody that is, you know, a pedophile, or repetitive, or compulsive... 

COSBY:  And I agree.  We‘re going to get to that in a moment, both of you.  But I do think it‘s important, Steve, that you did do something wrong.  I mean, this is not a good thing. 

S. ELWELL:  And I served my time. 

JENNIFER ELWELL, STEVE‘S WIFE:  He pled guilty in a court of law and he did his time.  And, you know, we‘re passed that.  And now we‘re trying to deal with what we‘re living with now.  And that‘s why we‘re coming forward to try and educate the public as to, you know, that, when you think of a sex offender, it‘s not always, you know, the worst situation. 

We‘ve had several calls from people throughout the entire country talking about being in the same situation.  You know, either they made a mistake or they just pled guilty in a court of law and, you know, they‘re being forced to live under these restrictions, as well.

And, you know, we understand the importance of the law and why it was started.  But, you know, there are families that are being affected.  I mean, you know, anyone could think of anything about my husband, you know, because he‘s labeled as a “sex offender,” but...

COSBY:  Because he had sex with a 16-year-old student.  And you‘re a teacher, too, Jennifer, aren‘t you? 

J. ELWELL:  I am. 

COSBY:  So don‘t you feel that he violated some trust.  I think it‘s important, before we move forward, that you acknowledge you made a mistake.  I mean, you understand you made a mistake, Steve, right?

S. ELWELL:  I pled guilty in a court of law, because I was told to, and that‘s not... 

COSBY:  OK.  But you also had sex with a 16-year-old girl.  Don‘t you think that that‘s wrong? 

S. ELWELL:  You know what, Rita?  This is not—this is not exactly what—you know, I‘m sure you‘re getting your ratings and all of those things, but you know what?  When we talked to your producer...

COSBY:  No, no, no, I‘m just...

(CROSSTALK)  

COSBY:  Wait, wait, wait—I just think it‘s important...

S. ELWELL:  Excuse me, ma‘am.

COSBY:  ... that what you did was wrong.  But what I think is important to ask is—let‘s move forward, if we could.  But I do think it is important to acknowledge that you made a serious mistake.

But in terms of what‘s happening to you now with schools, you can‘t live near a school, right?  Is that what‘s happening? 

S. ELWELL:  Technically, you can‘t live, with the new ordinances put into place, you can‘t live within a quarter-mile of a school, a park, and now a bus stops, is one thing they‘re adding.  And to be honest with you, let‘s be real.  If a sex offender wants to commit another crime, and somebody that is repetitive, which is not somebody in my situation, 2,500 feet, 5,000 feet, 20 miles...

J. ELWELL:  They‘ll go anywhere that they want to go. 

S. ELWELL:  ... they‘re going to go.  Do you really think—I mean, let‘s be serious now—do you really think a tier-three sex offender is going to want to go down the street, where a whole community has seen his face, they went door-to-door with his picture, is want going to go to a elementary school in his town? 

No.  Chances are he‘s going to go ten miles away or catch a bus.  I mean, that‘s—these restrictions obviously aren‘t working anyway. 

COSBY:  No, and I do agree with...

(CROSSTALK)

S. ELWELL:  You were just talking about a person who did that. 

COSBY:  I agree with both of you on that front.  Unfortunately, both of you, we‘re out of time.  I will have you back on again.  And I do think it is important to acknowledge mistakes, too, as well. 

Both of you, thank you. 

And let‘s move on, if we could, because the question remains:  Does Mr. Elwell have a right to live where he wants?  Joining me now are criminal defense attorney Jayne Weintraub and also sex crimes prosecutor Stacey Honowitz.

Both of you, in fairness to Mr. Elwell, one of the things that I do think was an important point is, has this law kind of gone too far?  Because even though I think he needs to admit his mistake here, on the flip side, he did pay the price, and he is very different than, when you look at the Joseph Duncans and these folks. 

Don‘t you think it is a little extreme, Jayne? 

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  I do.  I think that the law is totally over broad.  He‘s paid his debt to society.  He‘s not a danger to society any more or to children, or he wouldn‘t have been let out.  And this crime happened three years ago. 

Also, Rita, having sex with a 16-year-old girl when you‘re in your early 20s isn‘t quite the same as somebody like Mr. Duncan, who killed and raped several children and then was out of jail, killed... 

COSBY:  No, and I agree. 

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  No, I agree, but, Stacey, let me go to you, because, on the other hand, he also was put in a position of respect and a position of authority.  And under the law, he‘s a teacher—Stacey? 

STACEY HONOWITZ, FL. SEX CRIMES PROSECUTOR:  Absolutely.  And we tend to forget, you know—I‘m very happy that he comes on the air and he says, you know, “I did my time.  I was told to plead guilty.”  That was the last thing he said, as if that‘s supposed to negate the crime. 

The bottom line is, he is a sex offender.  He was a teacher at the time that he had sex with this 16-year-old girl.  And he has to pay the consequences.  And if the consequences are...

WEINTRAUB:  And what is that consequence? 

HONOWITZ:  ... are restrictions of where he lives, then that‘s what he has to abide by. 

WEINTRAUB:  You can‘t do this to somebody based on race or based on religion.  And now you‘re going to do it based on a simple prior conviction?  And you‘re going to lump people together, like for downloading a pornography picture, they‘re a sex offender, they have to register...

(CROSSTALK)  

HONOWITZ:  That‘s exactly right.  That‘s exactly right.  He‘s a sex offender.  He was a teacher.  She was a child.  She‘s 16.  She‘s still under the age.  She‘s a minor.  And you know what, Jayne?  The bottom line is, he committed a crime.

COSBY:  Hang on a second.  Stacey, I got to show you two, because 16 states have actually pushed to have these kinds of restrictions.  And there seems to be, you know, an overall sense, isn‘t the mood in the country, Stacey, that we‘re just so angry about some of the even more severe crimes, like the John Evander Couey and the Jessica Lunsford, like the Joseph Duncan, that we are sort of lumping just everyone, we‘re so outraged? 

HONOWITZ:  Well, absolutely.  I mean, you have to look at the tone of the country.  You have to see what society is going through.  People don‘t want to stand for it anymore. 

You know, Rita, I was talking to a friend on the phone tonight.  She‘s a 16-year-old daughter.  She lives in the state of Maryland.  And I said to her, “You know what‘s going on.”  She saw this person on one of the shows.  And she said, “I don‘t want my 16-year-old daughter in the neighborhood with a teacher who had sex with a 16-year-old child.” 

So, yes, the country is appalled. 

WEINTRAUB:  The problem is, this is the United States.  And this person went to prison.  He paid the price, and he‘s out.  He‘s out for three years.  He was on supervision.  He now has a wife.  They‘re starting a family.  What about their children? 

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  That‘s going to have to be the last word, guys.  We‘ve got to go to break, everybody.  Stick with us, everybody. 

(CROSSTALK)

Say it isn‘t so.  Say they‘re not still talking.  Of course they are.  I love those two.  But is it finally over for America‘s most beautiful people?  Details, LIVE & DIRECT, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Well, news is the pits.  It‘s official.  A Los Angeles judge signed the divorce papers for Jennifer Aniston and Brad Pitt.  And joining me now is the man who broke the story, creator and also executive producer of “Celebrity Justice,” my pal, Harvey Levin. 

Harvey, how did you get this information?  I know you‘re really good, because the attorneys had a confidentiality agreement and they couldn‘t even talk about it.  But you got it.  How did you get it? 

HARVEY LEVIN, “CELEBRITY JUSTICE”:  Well, Rita, you know I‘m not going to tell you that. 

(LAUGHTER)

COSBY:  I know, but very creative.  Very creative.  I had to ask. 

Let‘s look at the paperwork, if we could, because I think it‘s really neat.  And it‘s wild to see the signatures, to see they go through the same steps that everybody else does. 

What is the sense that you‘re hearing, sort of the back story, Harvey, in terms of how Jennifer Aniston‘s doing, how Brad Pitt‘s doing over this? 

LEVIN:  I‘m hearing that Jennifer Aniston is really, really, really upset about the whole incident, about, you know, everything that‘s gone on with the divorce.  However, I‘m also told that, in terms of how the divorce was handled, it was amicable, Rita, that they handled all of this really through their business managers, that Brad and Jen pretty much kept their money separate. 

The only sticking point was their Beverly Hills mansion.  And ultimately, they agreed that they put that up for sale.  Nobody‘s asking for alimony from the other, and this was all handled very civilly, and it is basically done. 

COSBY:  And real briefly, what‘s the back story, in terms of what happens once the divorce is final?  Obviously, the paperwork‘s done, but it‘s actually going to go through, what, October 2nd, it‘s actually official.  Are we going to see Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie much more public, maybe wedding bells there? 

LEVIN:  You know, I‘m guessing that whatever you see, it‘ll happen once this divorce is a done deal, which is October 2nd, six months from the date that Brad was served. 

But I think, Rita, this may have more to do with Hollywood than marriage, in terms of the timing of all of that. 

COSBY:  All right.  That‘s a good tease.  Harvey, thank you very much. 

Good work, my friend. 

LEVIN:  Thanks. 

COSBY:  Thanks so much.

And everybody, that does it for me tonight.  They‘re not over, but I‘m over tonight.  Stay tuned, everybody.  “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” starts right now with my pal, Joe, who I know has another action-packed show—Joe?

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”:  All right.  Thanks a lot, Rita.  Greatly appreciate it.

Tonight‘s top headline:  Natalee Holloway‘s mother strikes back at suspect Deepak Kalpoe.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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